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Maybe it's time to face the facts, Dirk. Buy any Dutch magazine or newspaper, and read the articles on Lousewies van der Laan, Jozias van Aartsen, Marco van Basten or Edwin van der Sar: you will see that every time they are mentioned without a first name, their names are written Van der Laan, Van Aartsen, Van Basten, Van der Sar. Go to a library. Read any Dutch book that mentions Karel van het Reve, Marinus van der Lubbe or Johannes Diderik van der Waals, and you will find that they are always called Van het Reve, Van der Lubbe and Van der Waals if their first name is omitted. Read the Dutch Wikipedia, articles like Volkert van der Graaf ("Toen Van der Graaf 17 jaar oud was..."), Ed van der Elsken ("In 1988 hoorde Van der Elsken..."), Medy van der Laan ("In 1991 trad Van der Laan in dienst..."), Jannes van der Wal {"Een bekend citaat van Van der Wal is..."), Max van der Stoel ("Tot de opheffing in 1992 was Van der Stoel leider van..."), and discover the exact same thing. Woordenlijst.nl says "Voorzetsels en lidwoorden in sommige familienamen krijgen in Nederland een kleine letter als er een voornaam, initiaal of familienaam aan voorafgaat." Taalpost.nl, edited by Ludo Permentier of the Van Dale dictionaries and Marc van Oostendorp of Onze taal: "Het voorvoegsel van een achternaam wordt in Nederland met een hoofdletter geschreven als er geen voornaam of voorletters aan de achternaam voorafgaan." Groene boekje, official guide to writing Dutch: "Persoonsnamen krijgen een hoofdletter. Het voorzetsel of lidwoord krijgt een hoofdletter als er geen naam of voorletter aan voorafgaat." The rule could not be more clear. I understand that it was not fun for you to find out that you don't know how to write your own name, but to add to this article, as you have done several times now, that "in Dutch names it is written in lower case, except at the beginning of a sentence or sometimes if the first name or initials are omitted" is simply wrong. Sorry for driving the point home this way, but I don't want to correct this text every day. David Sneek 09:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the Van Dale website and it seems to me they only use lowercase "v" in the logo, but in the text it's always "Van". As for "Waals", I have to say that I don't really see the problem. Even if a prefix is capitalised in certain positions, it still remains a prefix. David Sneek 16:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't seem to mention the abbreviated form I've seen on footballers' shirts. It's usually lower case, as in v. Nistelrooy or v. Persie, as I recall. Is there a protocol here, or is it just ad hoc? Slumgum T. C. 21:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is he van and not von? Did Germans use van before? Astroguato 15:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
His father, Johan van Beethoven, was of Dutch/Flemish ancestry. Rex 20:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Van pronunciated phan/fan or simply van? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.8.178 ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
neither: *v*, *a* as in bar/water/bath, *n*
The article states: "unlike the German "von", the Dutch "van" is an indication of nobility or royalty." This appears to be a mistake. I am quite sure, from consulting the Wiki entry on " von" as well as my own personal experience, that it is the other way round. Ivandh 4:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
i don't know about 'von', but 'van' does not indicate any kind of social status or nobility. (only double last names typically indicate nobility, but there are many exceptions to that rule) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.127.245.72 (
talk)
00:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
@ Ongast: hi. You wrote that "Van also exists as a surname in its own right, but as such it's very rare." No source indicated. In America it is, but that's irrelevant here. Are you sure? Are you a native Dutch speaker? If not, it's been tagged "cn" and will be removed. Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 10:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Native Dutch speaker here. Never came across "Van" as a Dutch surname, neither in modern times nor in historical sources or literature. I'd support removal. 185.33.153.226 ( talk) 02:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
I think the article is a bit too definitive when it comes to Belgium. I would like to see a source for the statement that Belgian sources often write Vincent Van Gogh. A quick Google search doesn't support it. And even certain Belgians have a nonstandard capitilisation. Just check how Wout van Aert's name is usually written in Belgian media. Quick hint, it's not Wout Van Aert. Oskkar ( talk) 17:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Maybe it's time to face the facts, Dirk. Buy any Dutch magazine or newspaper, and read the articles on Lousewies van der Laan, Jozias van Aartsen, Marco van Basten or Edwin van der Sar: you will see that every time they are mentioned without a first name, their names are written Van der Laan, Van Aartsen, Van Basten, Van der Sar. Go to a library. Read any Dutch book that mentions Karel van het Reve, Marinus van der Lubbe or Johannes Diderik van der Waals, and you will find that they are always called Van het Reve, Van der Lubbe and Van der Waals if their first name is omitted. Read the Dutch Wikipedia, articles like Volkert van der Graaf ("Toen Van der Graaf 17 jaar oud was..."), Ed van der Elsken ("In 1988 hoorde Van der Elsken..."), Medy van der Laan ("In 1991 trad Van der Laan in dienst..."), Jannes van der Wal {"Een bekend citaat van Van der Wal is..."), Max van der Stoel ("Tot de opheffing in 1992 was Van der Stoel leider van..."), and discover the exact same thing. Woordenlijst.nl says "Voorzetsels en lidwoorden in sommige familienamen krijgen in Nederland een kleine letter als er een voornaam, initiaal of familienaam aan voorafgaat." Taalpost.nl, edited by Ludo Permentier of the Van Dale dictionaries and Marc van Oostendorp of Onze taal: "Het voorvoegsel van een achternaam wordt in Nederland met een hoofdletter geschreven als er geen voornaam of voorletters aan de achternaam voorafgaan." Groene boekje, official guide to writing Dutch: "Persoonsnamen krijgen een hoofdletter. Het voorzetsel of lidwoord krijgt een hoofdletter als er geen naam of voorletter aan voorafgaat." The rule could not be more clear. I understand that it was not fun for you to find out that you don't know how to write your own name, but to add to this article, as you have done several times now, that "in Dutch names it is written in lower case, except at the beginning of a sentence or sometimes if the first name or initials are omitted" is simply wrong. Sorry for driving the point home this way, but I don't want to correct this text every day. David Sneek 09:00, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I looked at the Van Dale website and it seems to me they only use lowercase "v" in the logo, but in the text it's always "Van". As for "Waals", I have to say that I don't really see the problem. Even if a prefix is capitalised in certain positions, it still remains a prefix. David Sneek 16:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The article doesn't seem to mention the abbreviated form I've seen on footballers' shirts. It's usually lower case, as in v. Nistelrooy or v. Persie, as I recall. Is there a protocol here, or is it just ad hoc? Slumgum T. C. 21:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why is he van and not von? Did Germans use van before? Astroguato 15:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
His father, Johan van Beethoven, was of Dutch/Flemish ancestry. Rex 20:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Is Van pronunciated phan/fan or simply van? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.51.8.178 ( talk) 21:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
neither: *v*, *a* as in bar/water/bath, *n*
The article states: "unlike the German "von", the Dutch "van" is an indication of nobility or royalty." This appears to be a mistake. I am quite sure, from consulting the Wiki entry on " von" as well as my own personal experience, that it is the other way round. Ivandh 4:49, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
i don't know about 'von', but 'van' does not indicate any kind of social status or nobility. (only double last names typically indicate nobility, but there are many exceptions to that rule) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
80.127.245.72 (
talk)
00:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
@ Ongast: hi. You wrote that "Van also exists as a surname in its own right, but as such it's very rare." No source indicated. In America it is, but that's irrelevant here. Are you sure? Are you a native Dutch speaker? If not, it's been tagged "cn" and will be removed. Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 10:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Native Dutch speaker here. Never came across "Van" as a Dutch surname, neither in modern times nor in historical sources or literature. I'd support removal. 185.33.153.226 ( talk) 02:10, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
I think the article is a bit too definitive when it comes to Belgium. I would like to see a source for the statement that Belgian sources often write Vincent Van Gogh. A quick Google search doesn't support it. And even certain Belgians have a nonstandard capitilisation. Just check how Wout van Aert's name is usually written in Belgian media. Quick hint, it's not Wout Van Aert. Oskkar ( talk) 17:46, 30 July 2023 (UTC)