Apparently we found a solution for the name of the language which, despite not satisfying completely anyone, it doesn't oppose anyone's POV. So that is a great accomplishment if we manage to keep it.
Now, we may be ready to find a solution for the name of the territory renouncing at maximalist opinions and trying to find common ground as we just did with the other stuff. If we accomplish this, then we may finally leave a stable version of the article to be improved with so many other things which could be said there, instead of wasting so much energies with these things.
My proposal, as stated somewhere above here, is that, since both names have been already introduced in the lead, Comunitat Valenciana and Comunidad Valenciana are then alternatively used throughout the text. As Xtv said, it would also be good to refer to it as "the former Kingdom" or the like. Also, despite I don't like it at all and, after thinking it over, I guess we may want to refer to this as simply "Valencia". I am totally opposed to this usage in Spanish or Valencian because it takes a part (the city or provinces of Valencia) to designate the whole territory, which is confusing. But, actually, if we are honest to ourselves, that is probably the name which is known by English speakers.
Now, about "Land of Valencia" here is what some other users, which are native English speakers, have said, as per the talk page above and archives
These are both native speakers.
Also non native speakers object on stylistic grounds, see:
There are some others, either native or not, registered or not, strongly objecting the "Land of" thing, just look in the archives. Now, there is one particular user who keeps pushing for "Land of Valencia" for unknown reasons. He is not a native English speaker and, arguably, close to the nationalist positions. If so, I beg him to please show some flexibility for the sake of the very Valencian nationalism he tries to defend but in a wrong manner, by pushing for the, by all accounts, stupid "Land of Valencia". To the Valencian nationalist users, please realize that "Land of" is not providing any sense of "countryness" as they seem to think, but only a sense of fairy tale and, after all, stupidity, which I am sure they don't desire for their country. Neither of us here, whether nationalist or not, want any part of this article to sound "illiterate", "ridiculous" or just "bad", let alone the name itself of the article.
Land of Valencia is a bad usage whose only source seems to be a -by all accounts sad and poor- translation made by the Tourism office of Valencia. It indeed sounds something like "Land of Fantasy" in a "Terra Mítica" fashion which makes sense coming from the Tourism office.
We are expected to do here more than just mimicking bad translations, specially if that means that we are soiling the very object named by the translation.
Opinions? I am for a speedy removal of all the "Lands of Valencia" elsewhere, to dignify a bit this territory and this encyclopaedia.
This is apparently the most obvious part of the difficult names question. When the speedy removal of this term is agreed here, we can follow with the other names suggested in order to find a final compromise.
Mountolive | Talk 23:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
01/03/07 Hi again, please can somebody provide an English language source for "Land of Valencia" (...) not originating from Spain, the terms both sound barbaric in English and are not used by native speakers (...) "Land of Valencia" is like "Land of Nod", "Land of Nevermore" or "Land of the Midnight Sun". Its awful, and sounds anachronistic, we would never talk of the "Land of France".. user:Boynamedsue
Mountolive | Talk 05:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
[Reset tabs] I would really prefer "Valencian Community", especially given the conflict. It is the literal English translation of the official name of the 'object' that we are talking about: no-one can criticise WP for using it. The term autonomous community is widely used in (British) English to refer to such structures, which we cannot call states (because Spain is not federal), but which we don't want to call regions (because of their legislative prerogatives). As for a translation of País Valencià, "Valencian Country" is both linguistically more accurate (Valencià is an adjective in the original, not a noun), easier on the eyes for the native English spaker that I am, and closer to the generally accepted translation of "Basque Country" for the (Spanish) País Vasco. What do people think? Physchim62 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
We shouldn't open a new front until the last one is cleared or we will get all messed up and going in circles with nothing done. So let's vote, if you may and, when this is cleared, we'll start the next round.
It has been sugested a removal of the term "Land of Valencia" since different users who are English native speakers consider it an unfortunate bad English translation which has been called by these with adjectives like "ridiculous", "awful", "stupid" and similar.
The bottom line concern is that apparently this ill usage in English debases the dignity of the territory to the one of a mere commercial brand, whose removal is to be agreed here by means of a voting.
Agree to remove
Disagree to remove
Casaforra, the article has been stating, and states, "Land of Valencia" for months, and the evidence against it has been there for months as well (just look into the archived talk pages). I only compiled it, because there are so many users strongly suggesting to remove that, all unrelated to each other. I just can't see the point to spend a few months more discussing about it when the evidence seems so strong when, after all, all we are going to keep hearing is that the Tourism website promotes "Land of Valencia"...(and that a book published by a Spanish in Madrid in 1975 says "Valencian Country", but that discussion is aborted now, so don't bother).
Joanot, it is good that you found the guideline stating that "wikipedia is not a democracy" because it is actually covering your behaviour has been proving all these months refusing the good willed advice of English users who told you not to use that name which, as per their comments, is ridiculous. I bet that you will continue making good usage of this guideline in the future, congratulations.
From now on you can keep this article as your playgroud with your one-or-two sources by your side: I am outta here, it's tiresome to receive a Tourism website as the master source to state what seems to be a splendid gaffe and play deaf to all the common sense evidence against it. As I said in the intro to the top of this section: Valencia is probably the only name which English speakers use, that's all, no "Valencian Country", no "Valencian Community", no "Land of the guys who think they know more English than English speakers". Nothing like that.
So, since I'm outta here, you are free to revert if you want my contributions adding the whole Geography section (only Maurice helped me) and substantially completing the Economy section which Maurice created. Who cares about those little things when we can promote Catalan nationalism instead? right Joanot? You can go back to your routine of Catalan nationalism. Actually I suggest you a new moniker to add which, unlike the others, has a clear translation into English: use Catalunya Sud, South Catalonia, easy translation, not controversial. I am sure you can find one or two sources out there to cover it. Go for it man. Before I leave, just wanted to tell you that is because of people like you why I left the Bloc, because you are not the only one so narrowminded that are ready to hurt their country for the sake of their country....crazy, but true. By the way, Jmabel is an experienced and reasonable guy: this would be a nice challenge to see if he is ready to step the accelerator again here in wikipedia, so try to listen every once and a while him and Xtv for those occasions when they say your propagada is just too obvious.
Bye. Mountolive | Talk 01:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The simple fact is, those who most feel a stake in the outcome of this are not native English speakers, and hence, while they have strong feelings, those feelings do not imply any expertise on correct English-language usage.
As a native speaker, I've almost always heard simply "Valencia"; because that can also refer to the historic kingdom, by Wikipedia standards the parenthetical disambiguation is reasonable. In other words, Valencia (autonomous community), where the article exists, is perfectly appropriate.
The analogy to Basque Country is irrelevant. That is simply the correct English-language name of another place. One could as well argue that because we refer to Scotland we should also refer to Welshland or Franceland. This is simply not how things work. "Valencian Country" and "Land of Valencia" are both occasionally used; they should be mentioned and they should be redirects, but Valencia (autonomous community) should be the name of the article. - Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Please can the Valencian and Catalan uses listen to reason. The english-native speakers here have always maintained the same position regarding LOV and VC, that they dispute the existence of these terms AS USED BY NATIVE SPEAKERS. If there were any sources supporting their use by English speakers, they would have been posted. The sources which have been posted are inadequate, given they are second language examples, or are published in Spain. Spanish regions do not have the right to name themselves in English, English usage takes precedance, and the term used in English is simply "Valencia". There should be no vote on this matter, the words Valencian Country and Land of Valencia should be removed and any addition without a new source for discussion should be considered vandalism. A very pissed off User:boynamedsue
No body has debated anything for 24 hours, may I now remove the disputed mistranslations currently defacing this page (and my language)? User:boynamedsue
Pais valencia is, in English, "Valencia". The official name of the region is the Comunitat Valencia or Comunidad valenciana, its English name is Valenica. The usage of Pais Valencia is valid in Catala, Pais Valenciano is slightly less so in Spanish, but still current enough to be mentioned on the Spanish wp page, but we shouldnt be inventing English translations for these terms, it is original research.
Terms used in Spanish are irrelevant, if the name doesnt exist in English, we cant just invent it. La Ciutat Comtal, for example, exists in Catalan, but should not be translated as "The County City" or "City of the Counts", because the concepts and associations inherent in these homologs are different in English, so the meaning of the phrase is lost. It is a typically Spanish attitude to think that everything should have a translation, but some concepts are not transferable from one language to another. I would have no problem with "Pais Valencia" or "Pais Valenciano" appearing on the page, with a proviso explaining that they are disputed, politically loaded terms, but there should be no English translation. User:boynamedsue
The problem is that "pais" doesn't have a translation into English in this context. I would leave Kingdom of Valenica out, given Valencia doesn't have a King. Personally, though, I would err on the side of caution, why have a list of foreign names in an English article? cheers Boynamedsue
Valencia (officialy Comunitat Valenciana, but also (see here) País Valencià or simply València, in Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana in Spanish) is an autonomous community located in eastern Spain.
What is our justification for saying that "Valencia" is the correct name in English? That would be the translation of Comunidad autónoma de Valencia, not Comunidad Valenciana: see, for example, Madrid (autonomous community). Physchim62 (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I think we have a consensus that LOV and VC are not English, and that the sources provided supporting them are not good enough. If anyone wants to reinstate these terms please provide other sources or an explanation of why they are good enough. The arguments you need to counter are as follows:
1: The source for "Valencian country" was published in madrid at the start of the transition. The terminology for these regions was in flux at that moment (1975), and the text appears to be translated into English from Spanish. The usage of Valencian Country should be supported by a non-Spanish, reputable source, or the term should not appear.
2: The Land of Valencia is an attempt to render "Pais Valencia" in English. It does not work because the word "land" does not translate the ambiguous nature of the latinate word "pais", and it sounds silly because of the folkloric connotations of the term. The source provided is a shonky translation of something from the Valencian tourist board. A first language source not related to tourism is, IMO, necessary to support the reinsertion of this item.
Valencian Community vs Valencia is a debate that has some merit and apparently no political undercurrent, well done Physchim! I go for Valencia because it is more used, but Ive seen Valencian community written.
When someone changes the names, please provide reasons. If LOV and VC are reinstated please answer 1 and 2.
170307
Cas mate, it is not our job to invent names for foreign parts. We use the English term, wiki reports, not invents. The name does not have a translation into English, we shouldnt look for one. The name for this region in English is "Valencia", it already is translated.
In effect, what i am saying is that the Comunitat Valencia is a real thing, described in this article, our job is to describe the reality rather than the terminology that is used to describe it. In effect PV IS the comunitat valencia, but PV is a term unacceptable to some people. I dont see how this internal spanish debate affects the name given to the real administrative region in English.
I'm going to revert because you accept that LOV and VC are not correct, therefore they shouldnt even be there whilst we are debating PV and how it should be translated into English.
Again, my objections to these terms are 1 and 2, if you have answers to these doubts, or objections to them please explain before reverting.
Is PV in the statute? i thought it was Comunitat/d Valencia/ana. Awaiting an answer. BNS
I removed this:
It is incorrect, of course. http://www.rlgv.gva.es/almacenes/resultados/index.htm?no_cache=1&L=0&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BlstUIDs%5D=25&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BuidDisp%5D=25 Physchim62 (talk) 15:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
My edit does not pretend to be consensual, merely a suggestion to avoid ever more intricate reverting... It does not adress the issue of other translations of Comunitat valenciana, to which I leave other editors the task of writing a seperate section (as seems to be a consensus above). Someone is going to revert me, obviously, but it seems useful to give an idea of what this article could start with if we didn't have all these translation arguments. Physchim62 (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I nevr said that Comunidad Valenciana was official, merely that it is a very commonly used name and to include it in the table heading makes this articles compatible with all the other autonomous community articles (including Catalonia and Balearic Islands). The official status of Comunitat Valenciana is noted in the very first line of the article, without even needing to go to the reference. I cannot see the reference problem in the table (fixed by someone else?), but I have fixed the bug concerning the captions of the flag and the coat of arms. Physchim62 (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I only see official names in infoboxes. Maurice27 says that in Belgium's article there's the German name. That's true, but German is official in Belgium. About Japan.... mmmmm koku isn't a language!!!!
If you want, we can add an English translation of official names of AC of Spain.-- Pmmollet Talk 09:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think my opinion changes at all, I am all in favour of giving information in the clearest possible way... What is "official" in the infoboxes of ACs? The infobox in Asturias certainly has a demonination which was never voted by the Cortes Generales, the criterion which you pretend to use for the infobox on this article. Comunidad Valenciana is good Spanish, whatever its official status, and Spanish is a language used by a significant minority (possibly a majority, I'm not here to argue statistics on that point) of the population of the Valencian Community. Your edits are to deny that there is a different name for the autonomous community, unofficial since the new Statute of Autonomy certainly, but still used... Physchim62 (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Maurice27 21:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Xtv, but you know that it is completely impossible to have no official ratio or proportions. There can't be two different flags for the same territory. That could lead to mistake. -- Maurice27 22:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
An example of flag [13] Pmmollet Talk 21:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the debate about the names used for this place seems to be never-ending (as new users come in or old users decide to quit tired), I proposed to write a section called "Other notes" where all the names were explained, their origin, the political views of their users, their actual use, and so on.
I just noticed there are already similar articles in Spanish and Catalan: es:Denominaciones de la Comunidad Valenciana and ca:Denominacions del País Valencià.
What if those articles are translated into English and we just link to it from the main article?
Btw, maybe I'm not the best guy to do it: I have problems with the very first word: Denominations? Names?
It's just an idea, -- Casaforra ( parlem-ne) 07:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that we need such a long section as the articles on es: and ca:, but obviously the term País Valencià has to appear somewhere! I was going to place the following into a "Names" section, but I will place it here for comment first. It may well need expansion, but I think we should try to get something which fits neatly into the article, giving English speakers the necessary information but not taking over the page (there is more to the País Valencià than just its name) Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The official name of the autonomous community, Comunitat Valenciana, has seen a variety of translations into English, including "Land of Valencia", "Region of Valencia" or simply "Valencia". The Spanish name, Comunidad Valenciana, was official under the first Statute of Autonomy of 1982.
An alternative name for the same region is País Valencià (Valencian) or País Valenciano (Spanish), which translates literally "Valencian Country". This can be seen in the Consell pre-autonòmic del País Valencià, the forerunner of the modern Generalitat Valenciana, and in the preamble to the Statute of Autonomy.
Finally, the term Kingdom of Valencia (Valencian: Regne de València, Spanish: Reino de Valencia) is only rarely used outside of its historical context (1239–1707). The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 makes clear that the Valencian Community is intended to be the successor to the Kingdom of Valencia, at least in terms of foral civil law.
In all cases, the autonomous Valencian Community should be distinguished
Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[reset tabs]
The present version looks to me like a good compromise and a real improvement of the article. If the names party is finally closed here like that, then we could hopefully move towards making a better article, once for all. My immediate suggestion in this regard is create and moving the gastronomy and sports sections to their respective own articles, because they are adding a "tourist info" touch in this the main article which I don't think suits it well. Mountolive | Talk 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a brief summary of the evolution of the different denominations (names) of the Valencian Community should be included as the first subsection of the article (whether it be named "Etymology of Valencia", or simply "Names of Valencia"). This subsection can then link to the specific article Names of the Valencian Community, a translation I've made (per request) of ca:Denominacions del País Valencià. -- the Dúnadan 17:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently we found a solution for the name of the language which, despite not satisfying completely anyone, it doesn't oppose anyone's POV. So that is a great accomplishment if we manage to keep it.
Now, we may be ready to find a solution for the name of the territory renouncing at maximalist opinions and trying to find common ground as we just did with the other stuff. If we accomplish this, then we may finally leave a stable version of the article to be improved with so many other things which could be said there, instead of wasting so much energies with these things.
My proposal, as stated somewhere above here, is that, since both names have been already introduced in the lead, Comunitat Valenciana and Comunidad Valenciana are then alternatively used throughout the text. As Xtv said, it would also be good to refer to it as "the former Kingdom" or the like. Also, despite I don't like it at all and, after thinking it over, I guess we may want to refer to this as simply "Valencia". I am totally opposed to this usage in Spanish or Valencian because it takes a part (the city or provinces of Valencia) to designate the whole territory, which is confusing. But, actually, if we are honest to ourselves, that is probably the name which is known by English speakers.
Now, about "Land of Valencia" here is what some other users, which are native English speakers, have said, as per the talk page above and archives
These are both native speakers.
Also non native speakers object on stylistic grounds, see:
There are some others, either native or not, registered or not, strongly objecting the "Land of" thing, just look in the archives. Now, there is one particular user who keeps pushing for "Land of Valencia" for unknown reasons. He is not a native English speaker and, arguably, close to the nationalist positions. If so, I beg him to please show some flexibility for the sake of the very Valencian nationalism he tries to defend but in a wrong manner, by pushing for the, by all accounts, stupid "Land of Valencia". To the Valencian nationalist users, please realize that "Land of" is not providing any sense of "countryness" as they seem to think, but only a sense of fairy tale and, after all, stupidity, which I am sure they don't desire for their country. Neither of us here, whether nationalist or not, want any part of this article to sound "illiterate", "ridiculous" or just "bad", let alone the name itself of the article.
Land of Valencia is a bad usage whose only source seems to be a -by all accounts sad and poor- translation made by the Tourism office of Valencia. It indeed sounds something like "Land of Fantasy" in a "Terra Mítica" fashion which makes sense coming from the Tourism office.
We are expected to do here more than just mimicking bad translations, specially if that means that we are soiling the very object named by the translation.
Opinions? I am for a speedy removal of all the "Lands of Valencia" elsewhere, to dignify a bit this territory and this encyclopaedia.
This is apparently the most obvious part of the difficult names question. When the speedy removal of this term is agreed here, we can follow with the other names suggested in order to find a final compromise.
Mountolive | Talk 23:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
01/03/07 Hi again, please can somebody provide an English language source for "Land of Valencia" (...) not originating from Spain, the terms both sound barbaric in English and are not used by native speakers (...) "Land of Valencia" is like "Land of Nod", "Land of Nevermore" or "Land of the Midnight Sun". Its awful, and sounds anachronistic, we would never talk of the "Land of France".. user:Boynamedsue
Mountolive | Talk 05:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
[Reset tabs] I would really prefer "Valencian Community", especially given the conflict. It is the literal English translation of the official name of the 'object' that we are talking about: no-one can criticise WP for using it. The term autonomous community is widely used in (British) English to refer to such structures, which we cannot call states (because Spain is not federal), but which we don't want to call regions (because of their legislative prerogatives). As for a translation of País Valencià, "Valencian Country" is both linguistically more accurate (Valencià is an adjective in the original, not a noun), easier on the eyes for the native English spaker that I am, and closer to the generally accepted translation of "Basque Country" for the (Spanish) País Vasco. What do people think? Physchim62 (talk) 15:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
We shouldn't open a new front until the last one is cleared or we will get all messed up and going in circles with nothing done. So let's vote, if you may and, when this is cleared, we'll start the next round.
It has been sugested a removal of the term "Land of Valencia" since different users who are English native speakers consider it an unfortunate bad English translation which has been called by these with adjectives like "ridiculous", "awful", "stupid" and similar.
The bottom line concern is that apparently this ill usage in English debases the dignity of the territory to the one of a mere commercial brand, whose removal is to be agreed here by means of a voting.
Agree to remove
Disagree to remove
Casaforra, the article has been stating, and states, "Land of Valencia" for months, and the evidence against it has been there for months as well (just look into the archived talk pages). I only compiled it, because there are so many users strongly suggesting to remove that, all unrelated to each other. I just can't see the point to spend a few months more discussing about it when the evidence seems so strong when, after all, all we are going to keep hearing is that the Tourism website promotes "Land of Valencia"...(and that a book published by a Spanish in Madrid in 1975 says "Valencian Country", but that discussion is aborted now, so don't bother).
Joanot, it is good that you found the guideline stating that "wikipedia is not a democracy" because it is actually covering your behaviour has been proving all these months refusing the good willed advice of English users who told you not to use that name which, as per their comments, is ridiculous. I bet that you will continue making good usage of this guideline in the future, congratulations.
From now on you can keep this article as your playgroud with your one-or-two sources by your side: I am outta here, it's tiresome to receive a Tourism website as the master source to state what seems to be a splendid gaffe and play deaf to all the common sense evidence against it. As I said in the intro to the top of this section: Valencia is probably the only name which English speakers use, that's all, no "Valencian Country", no "Valencian Community", no "Land of the guys who think they know more English than English speakers". Nothing like that.
So, since I'm outta here, you are free to revert if you want my contributions adding the whole Geography section (only Maurice helped me) and substantially completing the Economy section which Maurice created. Who cares about those little things when we can promote Catalan nationalism instead? right Joanot? You can go back to your routine of Catalan nationalism. Actually I suggest you a new moniker to add which, unlike the others, has a clear translation into English: use Catalunya Sud, South Catalonia, easy translation, not controversial. I am sure you can find one or two sources out there to cover it. Go for it man. Before I leave, just wanted to tell you that is because of people like you why I left the Bloc, because you are not the only one so narrowminded that are ready to hurt their country for the sake of their country....crazy, but true. By the way, Jmabel is an experienced and reasonable guy: this would be a nice challenge to see if he is ready to step the accelerator again here in wikipedia, so try to listen every once and a while him and Xtv for those occasions when they say your propagada is just too obvious.
Bye. Mountolive | Talk 01:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The simple fact is, those who most feel a stake in the outcome of this are not native English speakers, and hence, while they have strong feelings, those feelings do not imply any expertise on correct English-language usage.
As a native speaker, I've almost always heard simply "Valencia"; because that can also refer to the historic kingdom, by Wikipedia standards the parenthetical disambiguation is reasonable. In other words, Valencia (autonomous community), where the article exists, is perfectly appropriate.
The analogy to Basque Country is irrelevant. That is simply the correct English-language name of another place. One could as well argue that because we refer to Scotland we should also refer to Welshland or Franceland. This is simply not how things work. "Valencian Country" and "Land of Valencia" are both occasionally used; they should be mentioned and they should be redirects, but Valencia (autonomous community) should be the name of the article. - Jmabel | Talk 01:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Please can the Valencian and Catalan uses listen to reason. The english-native speakers here have always maintained the same position regarding LOV and VC, that they dispute the existence of these terms AS USED BY NATIVE SPEAKERS. If there were any sources supporting their use by English speakers, they would have been posted. The sources which have been posted are inadequate, given they are second language examples, or are published in Spain. Spanish regions do not have the right to name themselves in English, English usage takes precedance, and the term used in English is simply "Valencia". There should be no vote on this matter, the words Valencian Country and Land of Valencia should be removed and any addition without a new source for discussion should be considered vandalism. A very pissed off User:boynamedsue
No body has debated anything for 24 hours, may I now remove the disputed mistranslations currently defacing this page (and my language)? User:boynamedsue
Pais valencia is, in English, "Valencia". The official name of the region is the Comunitat Valencia or Comunidad valenciana, its English name is Valenica. The usage of Pais Valencia is valid in Catala, Pais Valenciano is slightly less so in Spanish, but still current enough to be mentioned on the Spanish wp page, but we shouldnt be inventing English translations for these terms, it is original research.
Terms used in Spanish are irrelevant, if the name doesnt exist in English, we cant just invent it. La Ciutat Comtal, for example, exists in Catalan, but should not be translated as "The County City" or "City of the Counts", because the concepts and associations inherent in these homologs are different in English, so the meaning of the phrase is lost. It is a typically Spanish attitude to think that everything should have a translation, but some concepts are not transferable from one language to another. I would have no problem with "Pais Valencia" or "Pais Valenciano" appearing on the page, with a proviso explaining that they are disputed, politically loaded terms, but there should be no English translation. User:boynamedsue
The problem is that "pais" doesn't have a translation into English in this context. I would leave Kingdom of Valenica out, given Valencia doesn't have a King. Personally, though, I would err on the side of caution, why have a list of foreign names in an English article? cheers Boynamedsue
Valencia (officialy Comunitat Valenciana, but also (see here) País Valencià or simply València, in Valencian; Comunidad Valenciana in Spanish) is an autonomous community located in eastern Spain.
What is our justification for saying that "Valencia" is the correct name in English? That would be the translation of Comunidad autónoma de Valencia, not Comunidad Valenciana: see, for example, Madrid (autonomous community). Physchim62 (talk) 14:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
OK, I think we have a consensus that LOV and VC are not English, and that the sources provided supporting them are not good enough. If anyone wants to reinstate these terms please provide other sources or an explanation of why they are good enough. The arguments you need to counter are as follows:
1: The source for "Valencian country" was published in madrid at the start of the transition. The terminology for these regions was in flux at that moment (1975), and the text appears to be translated into English from Spanish. The usage of Valencian Country should be supported by a non-Spanish, reputable source, or the term should not appear.
2: The Land of Valencia is an attempt to render "Pais Valencia" in English. It does not work because the word "land" does not translate the ambiguous nature of the latinate word "pais", and it sounds silly because of the folkloric connotations of the term. The source provided is a shonky translation of something from the Valencian tourist board. A first language source not related to tourism is, IMO, necessary to support the reinsertion of this item.
Valencian Community vs Valencia is a debate that has some merit and apparently no political undercurrent, well done Physchim! I go for Valencia because it is more used, but Ive seen Valencian community written.
When someone changes the names, please provide reasons. If LOV and VC are reinstated please answer 1 and 2.
170307
Cas mate, it is not our job to invent names for foreign parts. We use the English term, wiki reports, not invents. The name does not have a translation into English, we shouldnt look for one. The name for this region in English is "Valencia", it already is translated.
In effect, what i am saying is that the Comunitat Valencia is a real thing, described in this article, our job is to describe the reality rather than the terminology that is used to describe it. In effect PV IS the comunitat valencia, but PV is a term unacceptable to some people. I dont see how this internal spanish debate affects the name given to the real administrative region in English.
I'm going to revert because you accept that LOV and VC are not correct, therefore they shouldnt even be there whilst we are debating PV and how it should be translated into English.
Again, my objections to these terms are 1 and 2, if you have answers to these doubts, or objections to them please explain before reverting.
Is PV in the statute? i thought it was Comunitat/d Valencia/ana. Awaiting an answer. BNS
I removed this:
It is incorrect, of course. http://www.rlgv.gva.es/almacenes/resultados/index.htm?no_cache=1&L=0&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BlstUIDs%5D=25&user_rlgv_pi_search_page%5BuidDisp%5D=25 Physchim62 (talk) 15:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
My edit does not pretend to be consensual, merely a suggestion to avoid ever more intricate reverting... It does not adress the issue of other translations of Comunitat valenciana, to which I leave other editors the task of writing a seperate section (as seems to be a consensus above). Someone is going to revert me, obviously, but it seems useful to give an idea of what this article could start with if we didn't have all these translation arguments. Physchim62 (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I nevr said that Comunidad Valenciana was official, merely that it is a very commonly used name and to include it in the table heading makes this articles compatible with all the other autonomous community articles (including Catalonia and Balearic Islands). The official status of Comunitat Valenciana is noted in the very first line of the article, without even needing to go to the reference. I cannot see the reference problem in the table (fixed by someone else?), but I have fixed the bug concerning the captions of the flag and the coat of arms. Physchim62 (talk) 17:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I only see official names in infoboxes. Maurice27 says that in Belgium's article there's the German name. That's true, but German is official in Belgium. About Japan.... mmmmm koku isn't a language!!!!
If you want, we can add an English translation of official names of AC of Spain.-- Pmmollet Talk 09:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think my opinion changes at all, I am all in favour of giving information in the clearest possible way... What is "official" in the infoboxes of ACs? The infobox in Asturias certainly has a demonination which was never voted by the Cortes Generales, the criterion which you pretend to use for the infobox on this article. Comunidad Valenciana is good Spanish, whatever its official status, and Spanish is a language used by a significant minority (possibly a majority, I'm not here to argue statistics on that point) of the population of the Valencian Community. Your edits are to deny that there is a different name for the autonomous community, unofficial since the new Statute of Autonomy certainly, but still used... Physchim62 (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Maurice27 21:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Xtv, but you know that it is completely impossible to have no official ratio or proportions. There can't be two different flags for the same territory. That could lead to mistake. -- Maurice27 22:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
An example of flag [13] Pmmollet Talk 21:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the debate about the names used for this place seems to be never-ending (as new users come in or old users decide to quit tired), I proposed to write a section called "Other notes" where all the names were explained, their origin, the political views of their users, their actual use, and so on.
I just noticed there are already similar articles in Spanish and Catalan: es:Denominaciones de la Comunidad Valenciana and ca:Denominacions del País Valencià.
What if those articles are translated into English and we just link to it from the main article?
Btw, maybe I'm not the best guy to do it: I have problems with the very first word: Denominations? Names?
It's just an idea, -- Casaforra ( parlem-ne) 07:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that we need such a long section as the articles on es: and ca:, but obviously the term País Valencià has to appear somewhere! I was going to place the following into a "Names" section, but I will place it here for comment first. It may well need expansion, but I think we should try to get something which fits neatly into the article, giving English speakers the necessary information but not taking over the page (there is more to the País Valencià than just its name) Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The official name of the autonomous community, Comunitat Valenciana, has seen a variety of translations into English, including "Land of Valencia", "Region of Valencia" or simply "Valencia". The Spanish name, Comunidad Valenciana, was official under the first Statute of Autonomy of 1982.
An alternative name for the same region is País Valencià (Valencian) or País Valenciano (Spanish), which translates literally "Valencian Country". This can be seen in the Consell pre-autonòmic del País Valencià, the forerunner of the modern Generalitat Valenciana, and in the preamble to the Statute of Autonomy.
Finally, the term Kingdom of Valencia (Valencian: Regne de València, Spanish: Reino de Valencia) is only rarely used outside of its historical context (1239–1707). The Statute of Autonomy of 2006 makes clear that the Valencian Community is intended to be the successor to the Kingdom of Valencia, at least in terms of foral civil law.
In all cases, the autonomous Valencian Community should be distinguished
Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[reset tabs]
The present version looks to me like a good compromise and a real improvement of the article. If the names party is finally closed here like that, then we could hopefully move towards making a better article, once for all. My immediate suggestion in this regard is create and moving the gastronomy and sports sections to their respective own articles, because they are adding a "tourist info" touch in this the main article which I don't think suits it well. Mountolive | Talk 03:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think a brief summary of the evolution of the different denominations (names) of the Valencian Community should be included as the first subsection of the article (whether it be named "Etymology of Valencia", or simply "Names of Valencia"). This subsection can then link to the specific article Names of the Valencian Community, a translation I've made (per request) of ca:Denominacions del País Valencià. -- the Dúnadan 17:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)