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The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are no extant suggestions here for alternative titles, and the discussion has not seen any action for 11 days now, including a full relist. As such, I don't see any consensus for change. If someone wants to re-propose with a concrete title and evidence, they may go ahead. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Ustaše in Australia → ? – In European usage, it seems to me that the term "Ustaše" mainly refers to the organization dismantled in the mid-20th century; its various vestiges and sympathisers have occasionally colloquially been referred to as "Ustaše", but I don't think this is a scholarly consensus. It seems a fair bit anachronistic to describe modern-day events under the exact same moniker, and it also seems to give undue weight to the concept of some sort of a multi-decade continuity that's not actually covered as such in sources. It would probably make sense to either rename or split into separate articles, using more descriptive titles ( WP:NDESC). Something like History of right-wing nationalism among Croatian Australians? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 09:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 12:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
The term 'Ustasha' is used by different people in different senses. Historically, it was the name given to the political revolutionary group which established the independent state of Croatia in 1941. In that sense the organisation, 'Ustasha', ceased to exist in 1945. By some, the term is used to indicate any manifestation of Croatian nationalism. Obviously, the use of the term in this way to suggest that any display of support for Croatian nationalism is terrorist, nazi or fascist is highly misleading.
Now in regards to neutrality, not to sound dramatic but seriously, do other users think there should be more content supportive of fascist Nazi-collaborators responsible for some of the worst genocide of the modern period. Would anyone like to engage in some bothsidesism or genocide denial? Or what is the issue here? ( Dippiljemmy ( talk) 07:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC))
Much of the article looks fine to me, where it sticks to the facts reported in the sources. I agree that with more eyes on it and more work it can certainly be improved to resolve the neutrality issues. Mccapra ( talk) 04:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
There are a lot of copy pastes from the original article here, and I think that Facebook, YouTube cannot be sources, and also the book of a journalist Mark Aarons member of the Communist Party and he is not a historian. Most of the other sources do not say on which page it can be read, and I think that these sources have been added, but maybe it is not written there. Someone should check that. I also think the title of the article is stupid. 78.3.87.142 ( talk) 13:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Dippiljemmy you're still failing to understand the fundamental issue of European scholarship not actually calling what happened in the 90s an actual continuation of the same organization and the same people, and then this in particular makes no sense to magically translate to Australia. Also if you think that that having youtube links to weird extremist content in ref tags is appropriate in encyclopedia, then we really need to talk about WP:V. I'm losing patience here, because this falls under WP:ARBMAC. You can't keep blithely reposting the same claptrap and insisting that everything is fine. This is not appropriate. -- Joy ( talk) 12:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
For example, in https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Usta%C5%A1e_in_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1145672209&diffmode=source you claim "adding further info and ref on how the HOS and HSP were continuations of the Ustasa movement directly linking the 1940s to 1990s and the involvement of Croatian-Australians in this." The source at [2] says things like:
So the source already makes very clear distinctions between Ustaše and those who are not so, yet you're trying to use it as justification for this whole generalization. If you read everything that it says, it tells a rather nuanced story about the nature of HSP and their various overtures to the Ustaše sympathizers and how the HDZ played on that intentionally, and whatnot. Some amount of rigor is not optional when discussing such controversial topics. -- Joy ( talk) 13:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The Pavlaković (2008) source (I found at a different URL from the one in the article, the Google cache for [3]) says almost immediately:
Hence it's not casually talking about Ustaše in the 1990s, but what it describes in the intro as “flirting with the Ustaše” and lists the Croatian phrase that translates from koketiranje s ustaštvom where the noun does not translate as membership but as likeness. -- Joy ( talk) 13:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
My opinion is that half should be deleted, because they are not reliable sources. Who is a certain Vjeran Pavlaković or Mark Aarons a communist and here are the "reliable" sources, there are more here than I can list and it is about misinformation. In addition, there are YouTube and Facebook sources, which is inadmissible, and they are here. Anyway, I will no longer edit this stupid page with a stupid name. 93.138.178.146 ( talk) 10:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
So hey, seems like a couple of users are not liking elements of this page, so I thought I'll just make a couple of things absolutely clear in the talk page section.
1) This is a page about the overall Ustashi movement in Australia, not just the individual people who came to Australia who were actually part of the NDH regime.
2) The flag that keeps getting deleted (the one with the sahovnica with the white square first etc.) is a flag well recognised to being associated with the Ustashi movement. The reference in the nb section in the infobox clearly shows this, as does the fact that this flag is banned in Austria. It may or may not have been used in the Ottoman times but that hasnt stopped it being appropriated as an Ustashi symbol in the same vein as the swastika is a Nazi appropriated Indian/Persian symbol that has been used in WW2 and ever since. Part of the reason I placed the SS propaganda poster into the article is that it clearly shows this flag being used during the NDH existence. Btw, this poster is legit and can be easily found on NDH collectors websites such as https://www.pinterest.com.au/ismoljko1043/ndh-1941-1945/
3) To claim that the HOS militia of the early 90s is not part of the Ustashi movement is something that takes next level cognitive dissonance. The HOS is so overflowing with Ustashi symbolism and idealism that I struggle to understand how people can deny it. As outlined in the references, the name, colours, anthem, slogan, ideology and aims of its leaders both political and military are so overt, so clear. How can you deny this? The Australian link is also so clear with the main leader of the group being a Croatian-Australian who had a strong history with the HRB in Australia. The HOS flag has the Ustashi slogan, ZDS, on the flag, so clearly when attributing all the other Ustashi elements associated with the HOS, it is obviously a flag utilised by Ustashi movement.
4) In light of the above points, any further deletion of these elements of the page will be classed as vandalism, and a protection for this page will be requested. ( Dippiljemmy ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC))
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There are no extant suggestions here for alternative titles, and the discussion has not seen any action for 11 days now, including a full relist. As such, I don't see any consensus for change. If someone wants to re-propose with a concrete title and evidence, they may go ahead. — Amakuru ( talk) 11:19, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
Ustaše in Australia → ? – In European usage, it seems to me that the term "Ustaše" mainly refers to the organization dismantled in the mid-20th century; its various vestiges and sympathisers have occasionally colloquially been referred to as "Ustaše", but I don't think this is a scholarly consensus. It seems a fair bit anachronistic to describe modern-day events under the exact same moniker, and it also seems to give undue weight to the concept of some sort of a multi-decade continuity that's not actually covered as such in sources. It would probably make sense to either rename or split into separate articles, using more descriptive titles ( WP:NDESC). Something like History of right-wing nationalism among Croatian Australians? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 09:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky ( talk) 12:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
The term 'Ustasha' is used by different people in different senses. Historically, it was the name given to the political revolutionary group which established the independent state of Croatia in 1941. In that sense the organisation, 'Ustasha', ceased to exist in 1945. By some, the term is used to indicate any manifestation of Croatian nationalism. Obviously, the use of the term in this way to suggest that any display of support for Croatian nationalism is terrorist, nazi or fascist is highly misleading.
Now in regards to neutrality, not to sound dramatic but seriously, do other users think there should be more content supportive of fascist Nazi-collaborators responsible for some of the worst genocide of the modern period. Would anyone like to engage in some bothsidesism or genocide denial? Or what is the issue here? ( Dippiljemmy ( talk) 07:53, 14 November 2022 (UTC))
Much of the article looks fine to me, where it sticks to the facts reported in the sources. I agree that with more eyes on it and more work it can certainly be improved to resolve the neutrality issues. Mccapra ( talk) 04:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
There are a lot of copy pastes from the original article here, and I think that Facebook, YouTube cannot be sources, and also the book of a journalist Mark Aarons member of the Communist Party and he is not a historian. Most of the other sources do not say on which page it can be read, and I think that these sources have been added, but maybe it is not written there. Someone should check that. I also think the title of the article is stupid. 78.3.87.142 ( talk) 13:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:51, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Dippiljemmy you're still failing to understand the fundamental issue of European scholarship not actually calling what happened in the 90s an actual continuation of the same organization and the same people, and then this in particular makes no sense to magically translate to Australia. Also if you think that that having youtube links to weird extremist content in ref tags is appropriate in encyclopedia, then we really need to talk about WP:V. I'm losing patience here, because this falls under WP:ARBMAC. You can't keep blithely reposting the same claptrap and insisting that everything is fine. This is not appropriate. -- Joy ( talk) 12:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
For example, in https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Usta%C5%A1e_in_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1145672209&diffmode=source you claim "adding further info and ref on how the HOS and HSP were continuations of the Ustasa movement directly linking the 1940s to 1990s and the involvement of Croatian-Australians in this." The source at [2] says things like:
So the source already makes very clear distinctions between Ustaše and those who are not so, yet you're trying to use it as justification for this whole generalization. If you read everything that it says, it tells a rather nuanced story about the nature of HSP and their various overtures to the Ustaše sympathizers and how the HDZ played on that intentionally, and whatnot. Some amount of rigor is not optional when discussing such controversial topics. -- Joy ( talk) 13:00, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
The Pavlaković (2008) source (I found at a different URL from the one in the article, the Google cache for [3]) says almost immediately:
Hence it's not casually talking about Ustaše in the 1990s, but what it describes in the intro as “flirting with the Ustaše” and lists the Croatian phrase that translates from koketiranje s ustaštvom where the noun does not translate as membership but as likeness. -- Joy ( talk) 13:46, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
My opinion is that half should be deleted, because they are not reliable sources. Who is a certain Vjeran Pavlaković or Mark Aarons a communist and here are the "reliable" sources, there are more here than I can list and it is about misinformation. In addition, there are YouTube and Facebook sources, which is inadmissible, and they are here. Anyway, I will no longer edit this stupid page with a stupid name. 93.138.178.146 ( talk) 10:48, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
So hey, seems like a couple of users are not liking elements of this page, so I thought I'll just make a couple of things absolutely clear in the talk page section.
1) This is a page about the overall Ustashi movement in Australia, not just the individual people who came to Australia who were actually part of the NDH regime.
2) The flag that keeps getting deleted (the one with the sahovnica with the white square first etc.) is a flag well recognised to being associated with the Ustashi movement. The reference in the nb section in the infobox clearly shows this, as does the fact that this flag is banned in Austria. It may or may not have been used in the Ottoman times but that hasnt stopped it being appropriated as an Ustashi symbol in the same vein as the swastika is a Nazi appropriated Indian/Persian symbol that has been used in WW2 and ever since. Part of the reason I placed the SS propaganda poster into the article is that it clearly shows this flag being used during the NDH existence. Btw, this poster is legit and can be easily found on NDH collectors websites such as https://www.pinterest.com.au/ismoljko1043/ndh-1941-1945/
3) To claim that the HOS militia of the early 90s is not part of the Ustashi movement is something that takes next level cognitive dissonance. The HOS is so overflowing with Ustashi symbolism and idealism that I struggle to understand how people can deny it. As outlined in the references, the name, colours, anthem, slogan, ideology and aims of its leaders both political and military are so overt, so clear. How can you deny this? The Australian link is also so clear with the main leader of the group being a Croatian-Australian who had a strong history with the HRB in Australia. The HOS flag has the Ustashi slogan, ZDS, on the flag, so clearly when attributing all the other Ustashi elements associated with the HOS, it is obviously a flag utilised by Ustashi movement.
4) In light of the above points, any further deletion of these elements of the page will be classed as vandalism, and a protection for this page will be requested. ( Dippiljemmy ( talk) 23:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC))