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There is no independent existence between these two buildings. When first built,
Castle House was the gatehouse of the castle. For the last century, the house has been a private dwelling and the castle a rather unorthodox garden to the house. We should merge, with a redir from
Castle House, Usk so that it may be appropriately categorized, should there be any need for this, if their listed building status should perhaps indicate this.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
21:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
As Castle House is part of the castle I think it may as well be treated here. Another factor would be the article on the house isn't that long, so merging here wouldn't unbalance this article.
Nev1 (
talk)
21:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I would disagree. Firstly, the building has notability in its own right, as a Grade I listed building. Whilst the editor who suggested the merge may assert that the house enjoys no independent existance, both British Listed Buildings On-Line and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales would appear to differ, as they both credit Castle House with fully independent Grade I listings, recorded as separate listings, quite independent of Usk Castle. Secondly, this article was created about 2 hours ago. I would suggest that a little time be given to see what other information may be added by editors more knowledgeable than I. I don't think there's any rush here - unless the editor suggesting the move is a little piqued!
KJP1 (
talk)
21:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
The two listings aren't independent. They have different building IDs perCadw, but they were granted on the same date and the listings themselves note the connection.
The only real question here is not the structure of the listed building database, but what gives the best structure to encyclopedia article(s). I can't see any use case where a reader would benefit from having two separate articles for coverage of a site with such a shared history.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
22:13, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I think a lot depends on how well developed the articles are. As an example the article on the
Tower of London is pretty well developed, but there's a separate article on the
White Tower (the castle's central keep) as there was a lot more that could be said about it but there just wasn't room in the main article. There's a similar arrangement for
Windsor Castle and
St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle. The story of the two buildings is obviously linked, but is there enough information available to treat them separately?
I don't disagree that the Castle House is notable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Castle House had its own story to tell because of its use in the 18th and 19th centuries, but I'm wondering if since that article is only about 150 words long if we may as well have the information in this article and save the reader having to switch between the two. In fact as it currently stands there's a gap in the article right where the information about Castle House should go: right after the Civil War is mentioned.
Nev1 (
talk)
22:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I'm now edit-conflicting with
Nev1 and he makes my point, although we disagree. The editor who suggested the move states that "the only real question here" is whether there should be one article or two. As an aside, the manner in which that editor decides that he will define the terms of the discussion is illuminating. But I immediately referenced
Windsor Castle and
St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle: two buildings with listings, history, geography and their very walls entwined - and two separate articles. The point regarding the length of the respective articles is very fair - but I would again suggest we see whether the Castle House article can develop, given that it's only existed for a few hours. Heavens, in the time we've spent on this debate, we could have created a new article!
KJP1 (
talk)
23:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Ah, I had not checked the history of the Castle House article and wasn't aware it was only a few hours old. I probably won't be around until Sunday but when I'm next online I'll take a look at the sources I have and see if I can expand this article. Things may become clearer if this article was in better shape.
Nev1 (
talk)
23:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Having now been taught how to create Re-direct pages, I could fold the Castle House article back in here, whilst retaining its separate Grade I listing, if that's the consensus view. That would ensure Castle House still appears in the Listing: Grade I listed buildings in Wales: Monmouthshire and in the Category:Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire, which was my objective when creating the page initially. That said, I'd still leave it a while to see if other editors can add material to Castle House. How long that should be, I've no idea.
KJP1 (
talk)
12:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose, because as others have said, these buildings have separate listings and are both of the highest importance in their own right. Though the house may have a historic connection to the castle, it is no longer part of the castle (and a in fact a private residence, not a tourist attraction). There is enough to say about the house to warrant a separate article, in my view. After 4 years, shouldn't someone close this merger discussion?
Sionk (
talk)
15:54, 12 March 2016 (UTC)reply
Andy Dingley - Without wishing to re-open a, best-forgotten, decade-old row, can I query the identification of these as
egg-ended boilers? I think they are actually the two
Elia naval mines identified by
Coflein as dating from
World War II and now disarmed and set on plinths as garden ornaments.[1][2] That said, having looked at images of egg-end boilers, I can see how they may easily be confused. Thoughts?
KJP1 (
talk) 08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
KJP1 (
talk)
08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Ah, many thanks. So the mines are much smaller. This,
[2] does suggest that the garden is filled with all sorts of bric-a-brac, so perhaps two old boilers don't look out of place. Thanks again.
KJP1 (
talk)
15:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
No - I lived close by for many years as a lad, but I have no recollection of it being open to visitors then. A pity, as I'd have liked to have seen it.
KJP1 (
talk)
17:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WalesWikipedia:WikiProject WalesTemplate:WikiProject WalesWales articles
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
There is no independent existence between these two buildings. When first built,
Castle House was the gatehouse of the castle. For the last century, the house has been a private dwelling and the castle a rather unorthodox garden to the house. We should merge, with a redir from
Castle House, Usk so that it may be appropriately categorized, should there be any need for this, if their listed building status should perhaps indicate this.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
21:35, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
As Castle House is part of the castle I think it may as well be treated here. Another factor would be the article on the house isn't that long, so merging here wouldn't unbalance this article.
Nev1 (
talk)
21:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I would disagree. Firstly, the building has notability in its own right, as a Grade I listed building. Whilst the editor who suggested the merge may assert that the house enjoys no independent existance, both British Listed Buildings On-Line and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales would appear to differ, as they both credit Castle House with fully independent Grade I listings, recorded as separate listings, quite independent of Usk Castle. Secondly, this article was created about 2 hours ago. I would suggest that a little time be given to see what other information may be added by editors more knowledgeable than I. I don't think there's any rush here - unless the editor suggesting the move is a little piqued!
KJP1 (
talk)
21:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
The two listings aren't independent. They have different building IDs perCadw, but they were granted on the same date and the listings themselves note the connection.
The only real question here is not the structure of the listed building database, but what gives the best structure to encyclopedia article(s). I can't see any use case where a reader would benefit from having two separate articles for coverage of a site with such a shared history.
Andy Dingley (
talk)
22:13, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I think a lot depends on how well developed the articles are. As an example the article on the
Tower of London is pretty well developed, but there's a separate article on the
White Tower (the castle's central keep) as there was a lot more that could be said about it but there just wasn't room in the main article. There's a similar arrangement for
Windsor Castle and
St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle. The story of the two buildings is obviously linked, but is there enough information available to treat them separately?
I don't disagree that the Castle House is notable. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Castle House had its own story to tell because of its use in the 18th and 19th centuries, but I'm wondering if since that article is only about 150 words long if we may as well have the information in this article and save the reader having to switch between the two. In fact as it currently stands there's a gap in the article right where the information about Castle House should go: right after the Civil War is mentioned.
Nev1 (
talk)
22:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
I'm now edit-conflicting with
Nev1 and he makes my point, although we disagree. The editor who suggested the move states that "the only real question here" is whether there should be one article or two. As an aside, the manner in which that editor decides that he will define the terms of the discussion is illuminating. But I immediately referenced
Windsor Castle and
St George's Chapel, Windsor Castle: two buildings with listings, history, geography and their very walls entwined - and two separate articles. The point regarding the length of the respective articles is very fair - but I would again suggest we see whether the Castle House article can develop, given that it's only existed for a few hours. Heavens, in the time we've spent on this debate, we could have created a new article!
KJP1 (
talk)
23:02, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Ah, I had not checked the history of the Castle House article and wasn't aware it was only a few hours old. I probably won't be around until Sunday but when I'm next online I'll take a look at the sources I have and see if I can expand this article. Things may become clearer if this article was in better shape.
Nev1 (
talk)
23:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Having now been taught how to create Re-direct pages, I could fold the Castle House article back in here, whilst retaining its separate Grade I listing, if that's the consensus view. That would ensure Castle House still appears in the Listing: Grade I listed buildings in Wales: Monmouthshire and in the Category:Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire, which was my objective when creating the page initially. That said, I'd still leave it a while to see if other editors can add material to Castle House. How long that should be, I've no idea.
KJP1 (
talk)
12:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)reply
Oppose, because as others have said, these buildings have separate listings and are both of the highest importance in their own right. Though the house may have a historic connection to the castle, it is no longer part of the castle (and a in fact a private residence, not a tourist attraction). There is enough to say about the house to warrant a separate article, in my view. After 4 years, shouldn't someone close this merger discussion?
Sionk (
talk)
15:54, 12 March 2016 (UTC)reply
Andy Dingley - Without wishing to re-open a, best-forgotten, decade-old row, can I query the identification of these as
egg-ended boilers? I think they are actually the two
Elia naval mines identified by
Coflein as dating from
World War II and now disarmed and set on plinths as garden ornaments.[1][2] That said, having looked at images of egg-end boilers, I can see how they may easily be confused. Thoughts?
KJP1 (
talk) 08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
KJP1 (
talk)
08:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Ah, many thanks. So the mines are much smaller. This,
[2] does suggest that the garden is filled with all sorts of bric-a-brac, so perhaps two old boilers don't look out of place. Thanks again.
KJP1 (
talk)
15:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply
No - I lived close by for many years as a lad, but I have no recollection of it being open to visitors then. A pity, as I'd have liked to have seen it.
KJP1 (
talk)
17:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)reply