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I have removed all of the previous discussion to an archive page, linked above, so that we can make a fresh start. I have removed semi-protection from the article as an experiment to see if we can all work together to improve the article. This experiment can only work, and the article remain unprotected, if editors:
Administrators will be montioring the article and will restore semi-protection or even full protection if it degenerates into a revert war again, or if large parts of the article are blanked. Let’s work together on this. Ground Zero | t 17:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ground Zero: thank you for responding to my latest comments on my talk page. Although I cannot say that I agree with every position you advocate, I do not think it is necessary to revisit these arguments at this time. I think what is important here is that you have removed the semi-protection from the article, despite your obvious trepidation in doing so. I truly believe that it was the correct thing to do. I hope I am proven right. My graditude, Blunders of the third kind 02:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, FYI, 66, 68, 38, 70, wormwood and blunders are not sock puppets as you allege in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambi#Help_Please. 68 and 66 are the same person (me), just logging in work and home. 38 eventually registered and became blunders (not me). 70 eventually registered and became wormwood (again, not me). go ahead and fully "investigate" the sock puppet issue. it's a red herring to distract from my legitimate complaint to the head of your Association of Member Advocates about your behavior as an "advocate" who likes to call his clients dicks. 66.208.54.226 13:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a few issues with the following section:
"The College states that 99% of all graduates go on to post-secondary schooling. Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, with most achieving moderate success, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy. The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967. The varied results of UCC's graduates prompted James Fitzgerald to write the book Old Boys: The Powerful Legacy of Upper Canada College, in which he tried to explore "a school that could produce a federal cabinet minister and a drug-crazed murderer in the same graduating year." [26]"
i) "with most achieving moderate success" - the sentence is both subjective and objecive. I have (on multi-occassions) changed the sentence to read: "Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy"; only to find it reverted. Objective and subjective statements have no place in an encyclopedia entry;
ii) "The College states that 99%.." - I have not seen this stated anywhere. The College does state 100% on all its publications.
iii) "The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967." - There are a few issues here surrounding the veracity of the statements - with the exception of the Rhodes Scholars, the other figures have not be accurately counted. For instance to state that only 24 Old Boys are members of the Order of Canada - is simply wrong and is very hard to properly count. To be honest, I don't think an encyclopedia entry can cite lists of Old Boy accomplishments unless the figures are real and not mere estimates or approximations.
I agree with all of these points. WormwoodJagger 00:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Has there been any discussion/thought of adding a notable alumni section? AlmightyZoo ( talk) 02:18, 29 April 2011 (UTC)AlmightyZoo
Kawasoe is the interim Headmaster (now Head?) of the Prep school - what are the exact posisions of Brad Adams and Michaele Robertson? Co-Headmasters of the Upper School? Co-Heads? It sounds incomplete and vague to say "the Upper School is headed by Bradley Adams and Michaele Robertson. -- gbambino 03:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to bring these forward from the archive for a little background behind the statement "It is widely considered to be one of the leading preparatory schools in Canada."
"Upper Canada College, the most exclusive private school in the country."
"Upper Canada College, the province’s oldest independent school, will celebrate 175 years as what many consider the foremost private academy for boys in Canada."
"(he) attended Canada's most elite and prestigious school: Toronto's Upper Canada College."
"A sexual-abuse scandal that has engulfed Canada's most prestigious private school, Upper Canada College."
"sending your son to Upper Canada College, the most prestigious boys' school in the country..."
There are also some other sources which I inserted as footnotes (though some are taken from those above). -- gbambino 01:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking the info regarding Doug Mackenzie's arrest and subsequent charging (which I actually added) doesn't belong in this article. He was a UCC student, but his crimes weren't linked to the school in any way, and I seriously doubt he's the only ex-student in 177 years to be charged with criminal offenses.
I will remove it, unless there are serious objections. -- gbambino 20:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Censor? I added the Doug Mackenzie info initially. However, on further reflection, his arrest made the papers, and I think mentioned he was a UCC student, but none of his charges are related to the school. Therefore, it wasn't a scandal for UCC at all. Mackenzie may, however, warrant his own article, or be listed in other articles that talk about sex-offenders. -- G2bambino 16:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I would recommened that some of these points be added eventually, though I should add the article is looking incredible.
- School Trips such as the Swaziland trip that occurs every 2 years where homes are built under habitat for humanity - which is completely funded by the students. The Costa Rica trip serves similar purposes.
- The release of Stephen Leacock's essay on camping from the archives.
- The UCC Old Boy network hosted at www.ucc.on.ca
- Boarding life
Parts of this page read like a pamphlet from the school and even when the school's darker (racist/sexist) parts are mentioned, it seems fairly biased. Although most facts are cited, two of the editors of this page have the UCC tag in their profile. Someone who isn't from UCC should review this article.
Someon is being called in to review this article. A complaint has been made about Gbambino's churlishness in dealing with outside editors, and editors who don't share his/her POV.
Churlishness: and I quote - "if you want to request a peer review, then by all means, do so (though I'd imagine it would require you registering with a user name, or asking someone with one to make the request for you)". 'Nuff said
I would like to suggest we delete the "Building Crisis" article. Only architectural historians would care about this extraordiarily niche write-up on UCC.
The "Athletics" section is a useless listing of sports in bullet form. I say we delete it.
I think "Ethnic and Gender Issues" are far more significant than "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval." As such, I propose we move "Ethnic and Gender Issues" above "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval."
The "Scandals" section should be placed at the top of the "Today" section, not hidden away in a redundant "Recent Events" section. Magonaritus 03:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Some of the allegations against individuals are shockingly unreferenced. The sections will be removed in accordance with Wikipedia policy if no sources are promptly forthcoming. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
No mention of Herbert Sommerfeld, and the scandal at all? [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.54.56.50 ( talk) 04:37, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
References
I was wondering: do you guys think that this article deserves to be one of Wikipedia's "Featured Articles?" -- 74.112.92.249 19:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I looked back at the discussions that went on before Canada was nominated as a featured article (archived here and here).
It seems some key things to focus on are:
Anybody else see any problems that need worked on? -- G2bambino 18:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree completly. I believe the majority of pertinent information is already on the page, and is therefore sufficient - content wise.
Other than that, all I can say is we need to keep plugging. Synflame 21:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC - 5)
G2bambino, it's really pathetic and transparent your attempts to hide UCC's dirty laundry on scandals and ethnic/gender issues by relegating them to the "History" article. These 2 issues are not historical, they are current affairs because they are still so recent and still playing out as we speak. I like how your edit history only refers to these mass deletions as simply "reducing the history section." Disgusting. Stop being such a shill. You really need to look deep into your soul and better understand what NEUTRAL means as in "NEUTRAL Point of View". All you ever do in this article is compulsively edit this article with the agenda of minimizing any negatives and maximizing any positives about this school.
I think I have to add the following: the Doug Brown case is currently under appeal (both conviction and sentence), so its hard to categorize it as "a recent part of a long history". It is a contemporary, ongoing legal proceeding. G2bambino, you mention above "as for the sexual scandals, there is, as far as can be found, one class action suit against the school still open". Seems to me that that would move the whole issue smack into the present, no? You're speaking about a CLASS ACTION (i.e., a lawsuit with so many plaintiffs that the court will, if certified, have to appoint a representative plaintiff before the suit moves forward). Maybe you can explain your rationale in a little more detail about why you think this subject should form part of the school's "history" - because it really isn't readily apparent. Blunders of the third kind 18:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The scandal and ethnic/gender issue sections have been in the main UCC article now for several months. Please stop censoring and deleting UCC's dirty laundry. I have put them back. As per the "Featured Articles" on Secondary School guidelines, these are the EXACT type of things you should be including in a secondary school feature article... they speak to the uniqueness and media notability of the school. Pretty much any newspaper article on UCC is either going to talk about the rape scandals or the racist/sexist sins of the UCC establishment. Ghettoizing these issues to your obscure "History of UCC" article is not satisfactory. Please do the mature thing and stop deleting things over and over again. Discuss it here instead of engaging in an immature revert war. In addition, I deleted your motto/crest section. You can place your write-up on crests and mottos into your "History of UCC" article at your discretion since that topic is clearly historical in nature, has no current affairs relevance and is not interesting enough to warrant space in the main UCC article. Jonawiki 22:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've requested that a mediator be brought in to deal with this problem. -- G2bambino 00:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate G2bambino on all the fine work he has put into this article. Kudos.
As for Jonawiki's demeanor.... no comment.
Having said that, I would like to chime in on a couple of things:
(1) G2bambino's editorial choices IMHO show a pattern of excluding content critical of UCC and "balancing" substantive criticisms with positive trivialities.
(2) The essay on the crest should go into the article on the History of Upper Canada College, not in this main article.
(3) G2bambino should stop deleting the sections on Scandals and Ethnic & Gender Issues. As Jonawiki rightly pointed out, they have been in the article for at least several months. The burden of proof rests with G2bambino to argue why these sections should be deleted before he goes around removing content without community discussion.
(4) I think G2bambino was right to call in a mediator. Magonaritus 02:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
A third opinion has been requested. -- G2bambino 23:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Good luck with it, all of you. Obviously between you you have the capacity to turn out a pretty good article. You may argue a lot more but St. Augustine said something about heat being necessary to produce gold. Luckily I went to a school with no history of distinction, except perhaps as a producer of scruff. Oh – as a former educational researcher in T. O. I should add the caution that assertions about the school's academic excellence should include the caveat that its students have characteristics which would enable them to do well in any school (they come from high-achieving families who can afford to promote their children's academic achievement outside the curriculum). Lawrence Park Collegiate has an exceptional academic record for the same reason. There are also technical problems with any system for ranking schools by achievement. I used to rank schools by achievement for the separate board, and I can assure you that the best-known published rankings, including EQAO's, have to be taken with many grains of salt. I will check back about that issue. John FitzGerald 17:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
How can we talk about UCC nowadays without mentioning the scandals front and center? For the past decade, any major article about UCC in the Star or Globe is about the scandals. They have no place in an article hidden away on the history of UCC. Also, UCC has a reputation as a prestigious WASPish old-boys-club institution. Again, the ethnic and sexual politics are not a matter of historical interest, but speak to the very unique character of the school. Is Gambino a UCC employee? He seems to spend an enormous amount of time working on the UCC article and most of his edits seem to be sneakily pro-UCC. Gambino sure loves his weasel words. 12.198.166.130 00:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There has been no "consensus" on keeping the scandals in a separate section, other than the one between you and Jonawiki (though, you two may well be the same person); John FitzGerald stated they should be mentioned on this article, and they are. From the third opinion it can be taken that if the ethnic/gender issuas go in the history because they are past cases, then so would the scandals; recent history is still history, as noted below. There is only one case currently open against the school - it is addressed in the current events section. If you can give evidence of any kind of ethnic/gender issue presently at UCC, provide it. Until then, that there are any is simply your own fabrication. The articles you gave as examples are on schools that do not have as lengthy of a history (or, at least, a lenghty history has not been written), and therefore don't warrant a separate, dedicated history article. This one does. Lastly, the scandals, etc. are notable enough to be covered in the history article, even being given their own separate sections, but your and Jonawiki's assertion that their prevalance in the media supports their being given prominance in this article is baseless - Wikipedia is not a tabloid rag. -- G2bambino 05:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The full history section was in the article for months; the sections you insist on reinstating were within it. The majority of the history section has been moved to a specific UCC history article. The burden of proof is on you to identify why the sections should now a) be separated from the history, and b) not be reduced here with detail in the UCC history article. Saying "but, it was in all the papers!" simply isn't good enough. I am attempting to edit this article to an FA standard, which takes work. Part of the criteria is that the article be "of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail," as per WP:Summary Style, which states "when there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry, that text can be excised from the present entry and replaced by a link." The former history section, including detail on scandals, qualified. It would be appreciated that instead of undoing all my work, you contribute to making the article better quality. -- G2bambino 08:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic/gender issues was part of the history section, scandals was part of recent events - you are correct. Recent events is not the same as current events; recent events are in the recent past; as stated by our third opinion moderator below: "History doesn't need to entail 100-year-old accomplishments, it can be as recent as three months ago." You still cannot explain why the scandals make the school "unique" - a number of schools in Canada have been targeted recently with sex abuse charges, including Selwyn House, St. Andrew's, Appleby College, and Bishop's College School [1]. UCC's appeared more in the media because the school is already famous, it did not become famous because of the scandals. You also seem to operate under the assumption that the article makes no mention of the scandals or ethnic/gender issues, which makes me wonder whether you've actually read the article, or are just blindly reverting to get what you want. The issues are addressed in the current history section, in an abbreviated form; again, as said below "A paragraph or two should suffice to cover this issue." The court cases outlined belong in the history because they, save for one brought forth by Doug Mackenzie, are over. Thank you, however, for the link to the article re. the letter. Some reference can be made to it in the history section. As for status quo - there is none. This article is being edited to improve its quality - restoring the whole history section and separate recent events sections will be contrary to that effort. -- G2bambino 19:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the 3O request, as it looks like it would be around a 6O at this point. If an agreement can't be reached, I would advise filing a request for comment (probably the "society, law, and sex" category), or going ahead with the proposal for mediation if everyone will participate. I would also encourage everyone to remember to comment on the content, not the contributor, there's no need to speculate on anyone's motives. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 01:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I will address each issue numerically:
Magonaritus, the third opinion moderator explicitly stated "Ethnic and gender issues should be merged into the history section"; you have repeatedly undone the edits I did to conform the article to this recommendation. I suggest you undo your revert, otherwise you are clearly editing in bad faith and to make a point, both of which will get you blocked. -- G2bambino 21:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Magonaritus, your 3RR violation was brought to a moderator's attention; that does not constitute "calling for bans or blocks" because you disagree with me. You violated WP policy; period. I see no agreement with you on the part of anyone besides Jonawiki - Xianhou only left a comment at Jonawiki's page re. his being warned about disruptive edits (which makes me wonder even more if you and Jona are the same person), Blunders asked a question about my motives and then departed, and 12 is just Jonawiki editing without signing in. Two users - Seraphimblade and John FitzGerald have supported, or, at least, partly supported my plan for the article. I've made a request for comment - though, it seems that attempts at intervention don't matter if I request them. -- G2bambino 22:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content and structure of this article.
Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute
Comments
Well, although I've never looked in to this before I did a search on google and I think that the concerns about sexism merit at least a mention in the main article.
Fifty-one of the 58 member schools of the Canadian Association of Independent Schools were founded as single-sex schools and the majority remained so for most of their history; only 7 were founded on a co-educational ideology. CAIS schools have played a crucial role in the social reproduction of the upper classes and the institutional elites. Since 1970, many of these schools have "gone co-ed" and by 1992, 33 schools were co-educational at the secondary level. The forces that led to so many abandoning the "ideology of single-sex schooling" and embracing co-education are examined. The implications for gender relations and the social reproduction of elites are assessed.
The author selected 71 interviews with old boys from the 300 oral histories recorded. The interviews are grouped into four sections roughly corresponding to the time periods of the previous four principals and cover old boys who attended the school from 1919 to 1993. The accounts are dramatic and sometimes poignant. They include the names of classmates, masters, and principals then at school and forthright judgments of their character and effectiveness. Although these oral histories reflect some editing, they are rich, primary sources on many themes. The themes include: the role of the student subcultures; perceptions of the school’s role in the respondents’ experiences in their personality development and intellectual, athletic, and interpersonal skills; and views on the school’s role in class reproduction. The interlocking themes of competition, homophobia, homosexuality, patriarchy, sexism, racism, and abuse permeate many accounts in all periods.
futurebird 03:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you have evidence that they're still ongoing, if indeed definitive proof that there are any at all? -- G2bambino 05:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the neutrality of this article is clearly disputed and likely to remain so (especially since everyone in the dispute seems well intended), I put a POV tag on the article. There also is a lot of original research in it, which also affects the neutrality (for example, asserting without a source that the school plays a leading role in certain school associations). However, you're not supposed to multiply dispute tags, and the POV tag seems much the most appropriate. John FitzGerald 16:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I was absent for a few days and was judging from a quick read of the comments were. I'll take the tag off, even though I don't agree it's in relatively decent shape (it's fat and flabby, unlike the article on St. Mike's, for example, although i guess UCC boys might not consider St. Mike's a peer). I(I should note my shock at discovering that UCC boys don't know how to use titles properly. "Lord Kenneth Thomson," indeed. He ceased being Lord Ken after his father died and he took the title. John FitzGerald 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I've flagged several more examples of original research. I haven't tagged the article as a whole because they aren't serious flaws in the article and can easily be fixed, either by providing a source or deleting them. I think the NOR rules are too broad myself, but when you do something like assert that UCC has a "new environmental mindset" or that the Wernham Centre is the most comprehensive of its kind you need sources. John FitzGerald 14:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Ontario Model Parliament' (OMP) is Canada's oldest and largest simulation of provincial parliament. ... The first OMP event took place in 1986."
This is not true, not even by a country mile. See Category:Canadian youth parliaments for organizations dating back to 1912. Consider it changed. -- 24.79.241.243 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:UCC Crest.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 10:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | The related Category:Upper Canada College alumni has been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Hi there Miesianiacal A few notes on recent changes.
The leader includes the claim that "However, UCC is today fully independent and the student and faculty populations are culturally and socioeconomically diverse". I have noted that this claim is dubious, vague, and possibly original research. It is dubious because tuition at the College is in the realm of $30K as reported by the article, and a quite calculation reveals that the 15% of students who receive financial aid still end up with an average bill of $10K -- not to mention the 85% who receive nothing. It is possible that the College's recent shows at improving diversity have completely undone the damage of history and expense, but I would like to see some numbers demonstrating that.
I could have removed the claim entirely, but I left it in because I believe it more clearly telegraphs the nature of the article when accompanied by the tags than removing it would. The casual reader, seeing the tagged claim, will know that the socioeconomic diversity of the College is something that some editors are attempting to assert without factual support -- this will imply in her mind that she should proceed with caution and know that the rest of the article is likely to be heavily biased in an attempt to cast the College in a rosy light -- as is often the case with articles about tiny clique-ish institutions on which reputations ride. This might be missed if the claim were removed entirely.
The reason for all this detail on a minor edit is that I actually came here looking for the criticism section. I am aware that the College has received its share. But the section's not there! I read the table of contents, checked a few likely bits, scrolled to the bottom: nothing. It was only after scanning parts of the talk page that I learned the controversies have been hidden in the "History" section. Those quotation marks are meant to signify that while that section is labelled "History", that label relies on a definition so tortured as to be worthy of Torquemada (another proponent of historical torture).
It should be obvious to anyone that putting current controversial events in a history section is ridiculous. The most recent event mentioned there is from 2014 which, for reference, was a month ago. One person on this page has suggested that history can mean three months ago (an oddly specific cut-off). By this definition, everything in this article is history. For example, the most recent reference in the curriculum section dates to 2010 -- there is no evidence about the curriculum for the on-going 2014/2015 academic year. I therefore suggest that the curriculum section be relegated to a sub-section under "History", along with the rest of this article.
All that is to say: numbers, please. As obviously vague, self-serving and (ironically) a-historical a claim as that, "however", the College is "today" now "diverse" will not go un-marked. Numbers should be cross-referenced against demographic data for Toronto generally. JohnKoziar ( talk) 16:55, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Editor Simonm223 has removed the offending sentence with my tags, and one other. I am happy that the unsourced and dubious claim is no longer part of the article. Unfortunately, removing the claim with the tags has had the effect I forewarned against in my first comment here: there is no longer a signal to the reader in the lead that Upper Canada College has had a long and divisive history and that a lack of diversity and sexual abuse controversies continue into the modern day, or that there are Wikipedia editors here who are actively trying to hide these on-going issues through a variety of fiendish manoeuvres. I am now going to think about appropriate ways to do this so that Wikipedia's readers will not be mislead. Presumably a banner of some sort is in order. JohnKoziar ( talk) 14:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Whatever other issues are on-going, it is inappropriate to remove the POV Dispute tag while this discussion continues: "An editor should not remove the tag merely because he or she feels the article does comply with NPOV: The tag should be removed only when there is a consensus that the disputes have indeed been resolved." As the article stands right now, I think it is in a satisfactory position and I do no intend to edit it further until this discussion has progressed. Specifically, the POV Dispute tag is on the article, "MIESIANIACAL" has appropriately marked the specific claim under discussion with an appropriate tag, and he has re-stored Simonm223's updated reference regarding Philip.
I intend to continue this discussion later. For now, I will repeat "Miesianiacal"'s proposal above: "the student and faculty populations are culturally diverse and the college aiming to improve the socioeconomic mix." The first half of this statement is unsourced in the lead and in the article: it is a repetition of the original claim of which it is a subset; the second half is disputed in the Globe article that's been discussed. I also do not think that 7% of the student body receiving financial aid would prompt most readers to form the judgement that the College is "economically diverse". For reference, that means that over ninety per cent of the student body can afford $30,000+ in yearly tuition. Any claim that the College is "diverse" will be somewhat vague, but a good referent is to compare the College to the surrounds. Now, neither I nor anyone else so far has produced data on this comparison, but I regard it as highly unlikely that over 90% of Canadians or Torontonians generally can afford that kind of tuition, or indeed anywhere near that per-centage. So perhaps if a claim of this nature is to be made, once data is found, it should say "although the College exhibits considerable economic diversity, the families of over ninety per cent of its students are in the top decile [eg] of Canadian families by income". The dependant clause of that suggestion was satire.
Lastly, please avoid the ad hominem attacks. I am not new to Wikipedia, but whether or not I am is irrelevant. I hope that my facility with its policies is evidenced by my ability to quote them in support of my comments. A blanket reference to a policy without an explanation of how you feel it is being triggered is not constructive. JohnKoziar ( talk) 19:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
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"Palman qui meruit ferat" is the motto on the crest of Upper Canada College (UCC) and University of Southern California (USC). Discrepancy exists between how each school translates the Latin phrase into English. UCC translates it in the male gender pronoun and past tense as "Let he who merited the palm bear it." USC translates it in both gender pronoun and present tense as, "Let whoever earns the palm bear it." An edit to USC stating this discrepancy has been written by this author, who was a Seaton's House graduate in 1983. I studied under a Latin Scholar, 1979 , [1]. I would recommend that scholar be consulted to concur, reach consensus, or quorum among scholars as to the accurate English translation of the Latin phrase "Palman qui meruit ferat". The author would also request a monetary honorarium for this effort to reach the correct English translation of each school's respective motto. Author's email: reganfraser@yahoo.com ReganFraser ( talk) 19:51, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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I have removed all of the previous discussion to an archive page, linked above, so that we can make a fresh start. I have removed semi-protection from the article as an experiment to see if we can all work together to improve the article. This experiment can only work, and the article remain unprotected, if editors:
Administrators will be montioring the article and will restore semi-protection or even full protection if it degenerates into a revert war again, or if large parts of the article are blanked. Let’s work together on this. Ground Zero | t 17:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Ground Zero: thank you for responding to my latest comments on my talk page. Although I cannot say that I agree with every position you advocate, I do not think it is necessary to revisit these arguments at this time. I think what is important here is that you have removed the semi-protection from the article, despite your obvious trepidation in doing so. I truly believe that it was the correct thing to do. I hope I am proven right. My graditude, Blunders of the third kind 02:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Metta Bubble, FYI, 66, 68, 38, 70, wormwood and blunders are not sock puppets as you allege in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ambi#Help_Please. 68 and 66 are the same person (me), just logging in work and home. 38 eventually registered and became blunders (not me). 70 eventually registered and became wormwood (again, not me). go ahead and fully "investigate" the sock puppet issue. it's a red herring to distract from my legitimate complaint to the head of your Association of Member Advocates about your behavior as an "advocate" who likes to call his clients dicks. 66.208.54.226 13:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
I have a few issues with the following section:
"The College states that 99% of all graduates go on to post-secondary schooling. Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, with most achieving moderate success, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy. The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967. The varied results of UCC's graduates prompted James Fitzgerald to write the book Old Boys: The Powerful Legacy of Upper Canada College, in which he tried to explore "a school that could produce a federal cabinet minister and a drug-crazed murderer in the same graduating year." [26]"
i) "with most achieving moderate success" - the sentence is both subjective and objecive. I have (on multi-occassions) changed the sentence to read: "Though the career paths of the College's alumni are varied, UCC has a reputation for educating many of Canada's powerful, elite and wealthy"; only to find it reverted. Objective and subjective statements have no place in an encyclopedia entry;
ii) "The College states that 99%.." - I have not seen this stated anywhere. The College does state 100% on all its publications.
iii) "The school has produced five Lieutenant-Governors, one Governor General, no less than seventeen graduates have been appointed to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, twenty four have been named Rhodes Scholars [25], and at least twenty four have received the Order of Canada since the award's inception in 1967." - There are a few issues here surrounding the veracity of the statements - with the exception of the Rhodes Scholars, the other figures have not be accurately counted. For instance to state that only 24 Old Boys are members of the Order of Canada - is simply wrong and is very hard to properly count. To be honest, I don't think an encyclopedia entry can cite lists of Old Boy accomplishments unless the figures are real and not mere estimates or approximations.
I agree with all of these points. WormwoodJagger 00:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Has there been any discussion/thought of adding a notable alumni section? AlmightyZoo ( talk) 02:18, 29 April 2011 (UTC)AlmightyZoo
Kawasoe is the interim Headmaster (now Head?) of the Prep school - what are the exact posisions of Brad Adams and Michaele Robertson? Co-Headmasters of the Upper School? Co-Heads? It sounds incomplete and vague to say "the Upper School is headed by Bradley Adams and Michaele Robertson. -- gbambino 03:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to bring these forward from the archive for a little background behind the statement "It is widely considered to be one of the leading preparatory schools in Canada."
"Upper Canada College, the most exclusive private school in the country."
"Upper Canada College, the province’s oldest independent school, will celebrate 175 years as what many consider the foremost private academy for boys in Canada."
"(he) attended Canada's most elite and prestigious school: Toronto's Upper Canada College."
"A sexual-abuse scandal that has engulfed Canada's most prestigious private school, Upper Canada College."
"sending your son to Upper Canada College, the most prestigious boys' school in the country..."
There are also some other sources which I inserted as footnotes (though some are taken from those above). -- gbambino 01:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking the info regarding Doug Mackenzie's arrest and subsequent charging (which I actually added) doesn't belong in this article. He was a UCC student, but his crimes weren't linked to the school in any way, and I seriously doubt he's the only ex-student in 177 years to be charged with criminal offenses.
I will remove it, unless there are serious objections. -- gbambino 20:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Censor? I added the Doug Mackenzie info initially. However, on further reflection, his arrest made the papers, and I think mentioned he was a UCC student, but none of his charges are related to the school. Therefore, it wasn't a scandal for UCC at all. Mackenzie may, however, warrant his own article, or be listed in other articles that talk about sex-offenders. -- G2bambino 16:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I would recommened that some of these points be added eventually, though I should add the article is looking incredible.
- School Trips such as the Swaziland trip that occurs every 2 years where homes are built under habitat for humanity - which is completely funded by the students. The Costa Rica trip serves similar purposes.
- The release of Stephen Leacock's essay on camping from the archives.
- The UCC Old Boy network hosted at www.ucc.on.ca
- Boarding life
Parts of this page read like a pamphlet from the school and even when the school's darker (racist/sexist) parts are mentioned, it seems fairly biased. Although most facts are cited, two of the editors of this page have the UCC tag in their profile. Someone who isn't from UCC should review this article.
Someon is being called in to review this article. A complaint has been made about Gbambino's churlishness in dealing with outside editors, and editors who don't share his/her POV.
Churlishness: and I quote - "if you want to request a peer review, then by all means, do so (though I'd imagine it would require you registering with a user name, or asking someone with one to make the request for you)". 'Nuff said
I would like to suggest we delete the "Building Crisis" article. Only architectural historians would care about this extraordiarily niche write-up on UCC.
The "Athletics" section is a useless listing of sports in bullet form. I say we delete it.
I think "Ethnic and Gender Issues" are far more significant than "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval." As such, I propose we move "Ethnic and Gender Issues" above "Cadets", "Move" and "Norval."
The "Scandals" section should be placed at the top of the "Today" section, not hidden away in a redundant "Recent Events" section. Magonaritus 03:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Some of the allegations against individuals are shockingly unreferenced. The sections will be removed in accordance with Wikipedia policy if no sources are promptly forthcoming. -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
No mention of Herbert Sommerfeld, and the scandal at all? [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.54.56.50 ( talk) 04:37, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
References
I was wondering: do you guys think that this article deserves to be one of Wikipedia's "Featured Articles?" -- 74.112.92.249 19:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I looked back at the discussions that went on before Canada was nominated as a featured article (archived here and here).
It seems some key things to focus on are:
Anybody else see any problems that need worked on? -- G2bambino 18:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree completly. I believe the majority of pertinent information is already on the page, and is therefore sufficient - content wise.
Other than that, all I can say is we need to keep plugging. Synflame 21:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC - 5)
G2bambino, it's really pathetic and transparent your attempts to hide UCC's dirty laundry on scandals and ethnic/gender issues by relegating them to the "History" article. These 2 issues are not historical, they are current affairs because they are still so recent and still playing out as we speak. I like how your edit history only refers to these mass deletions as simply "reducing the history section." Disgusting. Stop being such a shill. You really need to look deep into your soul and better understand what NEUTRAL means as in "NEUTRAL Point of View". All you ever do in this article is compulsively edit this article with the agenda of minimizing any negatives and maximizing any positives about this school.
I think I have to add the following: the Doug Brown case is currently under appeal (both conviction and sentence), so its hard to categorize it as "a recent part of a long history". It is a contemporary, ongoing legal proceeding. G2bambino, you mention above "as for the sexual scandals, there is, as far as can be found, one class action suit against the school still open". Seems to me that that would move the whole issue smack into the present, no? You're speaking about a CLASS ACTION (i.e., a lawsuit with so many plaintiffs that the court will, if certified, have to appoint a representative plaintiff before the suit moves forward). Maybe you can explain your rationale in a little more detail about why you think this subject should form part of the school's "history" - because it really isn't readily apparent. Blunders of the third kind 18:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The scandal and ethnic/gender issue sections have been in the main UCC article now for several months. Please stop censoring and deleting UCC's dirty laundry. I have put them back. As per the "Featured Articles" on Secondary School guidelines, these are the EXACT type of things you should be including in a secondary school feature article... they speak to the uniqueness and media notability of the school. Pretty much any newspaper article on UCC is either going to talk about the rape scandals or the racist/sexist sins of the UCC establishment. Ghettoizing these issues to your obscure "History of UCC" article is not satisfactory. Please do the mature thing and stop deleting things over and over again. Discuss it here instead of engaging in an immature revert war. In addition, I deleted your motto/crest section. You can place your write-up on crests and mottos into your "History of UCC" article at your discretion since that topic is clearly historical in nature, has no current affairs relevance and is not interesting enough to warrant space in the main UCC article. Jonawiki 22:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've requested that a mediator be brought in to deal with this problem. -- G2bambino 00:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate G2bambino on all the fine work he has put into this article. Kudos.
As for Jonawiki's demeanor.... no comment.
Having said that, I would like to chime in on a couple of things:
(1) G2bambino's editorial choices IMHO show a pattern of excluding content critical of UCC and "balancing" substantive criticisms with positive trivialities.
(2) The essay on the crest should go into the article on the History of Upper Canada College, not in this main article.
(3) G2bambino should stop deleting the sections on Scandals and Ethnic & Gender Issues. As Jonawiki rightly pointed out, they have been in the article for at least several months. The burden of proof rests with G2bambino to argue why these sections should be deleted before he goes around removing content without community discussion.
(4) I think G2bambino was right to call in a mediator. Magonaritus 02:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
A third opinion has been requested. -- G2bambino 23:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Good luck with it, all of you. Obviously between you you have the capacity to turn out a pretty good article. You may argue a lot more but St. Augustine said something about heat being necessary to produce gold. Luckily I went to a school with no history of distinction, except perhaps as a producer of scruff. Oh – as a former educational researcher in T. O. I should add the caution that assertions about the school's academic excellence should include the caveat that its students have characteristics which would enable them to do well in any school (they come from high-achieving families who can afford to promote their children's academic achievement outside the curriculum). Lawrence Park Collegiate has an exceptional academic record for the same reason. There are also technical problems with any system for ranking schools by achievement. I used to rank schools by achievement for the separate board, and I can assure you that the best-known published rankings, including EQAO's, have to be taken with many grains of salt. I will check back about that issue. John FitzGerald 17:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
How can we talk about UCC nowadays without mentioning the scandals front and center? For the past decade, any major article about UCC in the Star or Globe is about the scandals. They have no place in an article hidden away on the history of UCC. Also, UCC has a reputation as a prestigious WASPish old-boys-club institution. Again, the ethnic and sexual politics are not a matter of historical interest, but speak to the very unique character of the school. Is Gambino a UCC employee? He seems to spend an enormous amount of time working on the UCC article and most of his edits seem to be sneakily pro-UCC. Gambino sure loves his weasel words. 12.198.166.130 00:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There has been no "consensus" on keeping the scandals in a separate section, other than the one between you and Jonawiki (though, you two may well be the same person); John FitzGerald stated they should be mentioned on this article, and they are. From the third opinion it can be taken that if the ethnic/gender issuas go in the history because they are past cases, then so would the scandals; recent history is still history, as noted below. There is only one case currently open against the school - it is addressed in the current events section. If you can give evidence of any kind of ethnic/gender issue presently at UCC, provide it. Until then, that there are any is simply your own fabrication. The articles you gave as examples are on schools that do not have as lengthy of a history (or, at least, a lenghty history has not been written), and therefore don't warrant a separate, dedicated history article. This one does. Lastly, the scandals, etc. are notable enough to be covered in the history article, even being given their own separate sections, but your and Jonawiki's assertion that their prevalance in the media supports their being given prominance in this article is baseless - Wikipedia is not a tabloid rag. -- G2bambino 05:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The full history section was in the article for months; the sections you insist on reinstating were within it. The majority of the history section has been moved to a specific UCC history article. The burden of proof is on you to identify why the sections should now a) be separated from the history, and b) not be reduced here with detail in the UCC history article. Saying "but, it was in all the papers!" simply isn't good enough. I am attempting to edit this article to an FA standard, which takes work. Part of the criteria is that the article be "of appropriate length, staying focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail," as per WP:Summary Style, which states "when there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry, that text can be excised from the present entry and replaced by a link." The former history section, including detail on scandals, qualified. It would be appreciated that instead of undoing all my work, you contribute to making the article better quality. -- G2bambino 08:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic/gender issues was part of the history section, scandals was part of recent events - you are correct. Recent events is not the same as current events; recent events are in the recent past; as stated by our third opinion moderator below: "History doesn't need to entail 100-year-old accomplishments, it can be as recent as three months ago." You still cannot explain why the scandals make the school "unique" - a number of schools in Canada have been targeted recently with sex abuse charges, including Selwyn House, St. Andrew's, Appleby College, and Bishop's College School [1]. UCC's appeared more in the media because the school is already famous, it did not become famous because of the scandals. You also seem to operate under the assumption that the article makes no mention of the scandals or ethnic/gender issues, which makes me wonder whether you've actually read the article, or are just blindly reverting to get what you want. The issues are addressed in the current history section, in an abbreviated form; again, as said below "A paragraph or two should suffice to cover this issue." The court cases outlined belong in the history because they, save for one brought forth by Doug Mackenzie, are over. Thank you, however, for the link to the article re. the letter. Some reference can be made to it in the history section. As for status quo - there is none. This article is being edited to improve its quality - restoring the whole history section and separate recent events sections will be contrary to that effort. -- G2bambino 19:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the 3O request, as it looks like it would be around a 6O at this point. If an agreement can't be reached, I would advise filing a request for comment (probably the "society, law, and sex" category), or going ahead with the proposal for mediation if everyone will participate. I would also encourage everyone to remember to comment on the content, not the contributor, there's no need to speculate on anyone's motives. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 01:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I will address each issue numerically:
Magonaritus, the third opinion moderator explicitly stated "Ethnic and gender issues should be merged into the history section"; you have repeatedly undone the edits I did to conform the article to this recommendation. I suggest you undo your revert, otherwise you are clearly editing in bad faith and to make a point, both of which will get you blocked. -- G2bambino 21:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Magonaritus, your 3RR violation was brought to a moderator's attention; that does not constitute "calling for bans or blocks" because you disagree with me. You violated WP policy; period. I see no agreement with you on the part of anyone besides Jonawiki - Xianhou only left a comment at Jonawiki's page re. his being warned about disruptive edits (which makes me wonder even more if you and Jona are the same person), Blunders asked a question about my motives and then departed, and 12 is just Jonawiki editing without signing in. Two users - Seraphimblade and John FitzGerald have supported, or, at least, partly supported my plan for the article. I've made a request for comment - though, it seems that attempts at intervention don't matter if I request them. -- G2bambino 22:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content and structure of this article.
Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute
Comments
Well, although I've never looked in to this before I did a search on google and I think that the concerns about sexism merit at least a mention in the main article.
Fifty-one of the 58 member schools of the Canadian Association of Independent Schools were founded as single-sex schools and the majority remained so for most of their history; only 7 were founded on a co-educational ideology. CAIS schools have played a crucial role in the social reproduction of the upper classes and the institutional elites. Since 1970, many of these schools have "gone co-ed" and by 1992, 33 schools were co-educational at the secondary level. The forces that led to so many abandoning the "ideology of single-sex schooling" and embracing co-education are examined. The implications for gender relations and the social reproduction of elites are assessed.
The author selected 71 interviews with old boys from the 300 oral histories recorded. The interviews are grouped into four sections roughly corresponding to the time periods of the previous four principals and cover old boys who attended the school from 1919 to 1993. The accounts are dramatic and sometimes poignant. They include the names of classmates, masters, and principals then at school and forthright judgments of their character and effectiveness. Although these oral histories reflect some editing, they are rich, primary sources on many themes. The themes include: the role of the student subcultures; perceptions of the school’s role in the respondents’ experiences in their personality development and intellectual, athletic, and interpersonal skills; and views on the school’s role in class reproduction. The interlocking themes of competition, homophobia, homosexuality, patriarchy, sexism, racism, and abuse permeate many accounts in all periods.
futurebird 03:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you have evidence that they're still ongoing, if indeed definitive proof that there are any at all? -- G2bambino 05:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Since the neutrality of this article is clearly disputed and likely to remain so (especially since everyone in the dispute seems well intended), I put a POV tag on the article. There also is a lot of original research in it, which also affects the neutrality (for example, asserting without a source that the school plays a leading role in certain school associations). However, you're not supposed to multiply dispute tags, and the POV tag seems much the most appropriate. John FitzGerald 16:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I was absent for a few days and was judging from a quick read of the comments were. I'll take the tag off, even though I don't agree it's in relatively decent shape (it's fat and flabby, unlike the article on St. Mike's, for example, although i guess UCC boys might not consider St. Mike's a peer). I(I should note my shock at discovering that UCC boys don't know how to use titles properly. "Lord Kenneth Thomson," indeed. He ceased being Lord Ken after his father died and he took the title. John FitzGerald 14:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I've flagged several more examples of original research. I haven't tagged the article as a whole because they aren't serious flaws in the article and can easily be fixed, either by providing a source or deleting them. I think the NOR rules are too broad myself, but when you do something like assert that UCC has a "new environmental mindset" or that the Wernham Centre is the most comprehensive of its kind you need sources. John FitzGerald 14:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Ontario Model Parliament' (OMP) is Canada's oldest and largest simulation of provincial parliament. ... The first OMP event took place in 1986."
This is not true, not even by a country mile. See Category:Canadian youth parliaments for organizations dating back to 1912. Consider it changed. -- 24.79.241.243 02:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:UCC Crest.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 10:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | The related Category:Upper Canada College alumni has been nominated for renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. |
Hi there Miesianiacal A few notes on recent changes.
The leader includes the claim that "However, UCC is today fully independent and the student and faculty populations are culturally and socioeconomically diverse". I have noted that this claim is dubious, vague, and possibly original research. It is dubious because tuition at the College is in the realm of $30K as reported by the article, and a quite calculation reveals that the 15% of students who receive financial aid still end up with an average bill of $10K -- not to mention the 85% who receive nothing. It is possible that the College's recent shows at improving diversity have completely undone the damage of history and expense, but I would like to see some numbers demonstrating that.
I could have removed the claim entirely, but I left it in because I believe it more clearly telegraphs the nature of the article when accompanied by the tags than removing it would. The casual reader, seeing the tagged claim, will know that the socioeconomic diversity of the College is something that some editors are attempting to assert without factual support -- this will imply in her mind that she should proceed with caution and know that the rest of the article is likely to be heavily biased in an attempt to cast the College in a rosy light -- as is often the case with articles about tiny clique-ish institutions on which reputations ride. This might be missed if the claim were removed entirely.
The reason for all this detail on a minor edit is that I actually came here looking for the criticism section. I am aware that the College has received its share. But the section's not there! I read the table of contents, checked a few likely bits, scrolled to the bottom: nothing. It was only after scanning parts of the talk page that I learned the controversies have been hidden in the "History" section. Those quotation marks are meant to signify that while that section is labelled "History", that label relies on a definition so tortured as to be worthy of Torquemada (another proponent of historical torture).
It should be obvious to anyone that putting current controversial events in a history section is ridiculous. The most recent event mentioned there is from 2014 which, for reference, was a month ago. One person on this page has suggested that history can mean three months ago (an oddly specific cut-off). By this definition, everything in this article is history. For example, the most recent reference in the curriculum section dates to 2010 -- there is no evidence about the curriculum for the on-going 2014/2015 academic year. I therefore suggest that the curriculum section be relegated to a sub-section under "History", along with the rest of this article.
All that is to say: numbers, please. As obviously vague, self-serving and (ironically) a-historical a claim as that, "however", the College is "today" now "diverse" will not go un-marked. Numbers should be cross-referenced against demographic data for Toronto generally. JohnKoziar ( talk) 16:55, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Editor Simonm223 has removed the offending sentence with my tags, and one other. I am happy that the unsourced and dubious claim is no longer part of the article. Unfortunately, removing the claim with the tags has had the effect I forewarned against in my first comment here: there is no longer a signal to the reader in the lead that Upper Canada College has had a long and divisive history and that a lack of diversity and sexual abuse controversies continue into the modern day, or that there are Wikipedia editors here who are actively trying to hide these on-going issues through a variety of fiendish manoeuvres. I am now going to think about appropriate ways to do this so that Wikipedia's readers will not be mislead. Presumably a banner of some sort is in order. JohnKoziar ( talk) 14:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Whatever other issues are on-going, it is inappropriate to remove the POV Dispute tag while this discussion continues: "An editor should not remove the tag merely because he or she feels the article does comply with NPOV: The tag should be removed only when there is a consensus that the disputes have indeed been resolved." As the article stands right now, I think it is in a satisfactory position and I do no intend to edit it further until this discussion has progressed. Specifically, the POV Dispute tag is on the article, "MIESIANIACAL" has appropriately marked the specific claim under discussion with an appropriate tag, and he has re-stored Simonm223's updated reference regarding Philip.
I intend to continue this discussion later. For now, I will repeat "Miesianiacal"'s proposal above: "the student and faculty populations are culturally diverse and the college aiming to improve the socioeconomic mix." The first half of this statement is unsourced in the lead and in the article: it is a repetition of the original claim of which it is a subset; the second half is disputed in the Globe article that's been discussed. I also do not think that 7% of the student body receiving financial aid would prompt most readers to form the judgement that the College is "economically diverse". For reference, that means that over ninety per cent of the student body can afford $30,000+ in yearly tuition. Any claim that the College is "diverse" will be somewhat vague, but a good referent is to compare the College to the surrounds. Now, neither I nor anyone else so far has produced data on this comparison, but I regard it as highly unlikely that over 90% of Canadians or Torontonians generally can afford that kind of tuition, or indeed anywhere near that per-centage. So perhaps if a claim of this nature is to be made, once data is found, it should say "although the College exhibits considerable economic diversity, the families of over ninety per cent of its students are in the top decile [eg] of Canadian families by income". The dependant clause of that suggestion was satire.
Lastly, please avoid the ad hominem attacks. I am not new to Wikipedia, but whether or not I am is irrelevant. I hope that my facility with its policies is evidenced by my ability to quote them in support of my comments. A blanket reference to a policy without an explanation of how you feel it is being triggered is not constructive. JohnKoziar ( talk) 19:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:21, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
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"Palman qui meruit ferat" is the motto on the crest of Upper Canada College (UCC) and University of Southern California (USC). Discrepancy exists between how each school translates the Latin phrase into English. UCC translates it in the male gender pronoun and past tense as "Let he who merited the palm bear it." USC translates it in both gender pronoun and present tense as, "Let whoever earns the palm bear it." An edit to USC stating this discrepancy has been written by this author, who was a Seaton's House graduate in 1983. I studied under a Latin Scholar, 1979 , [1]. I would recommend that scholar be consulted to concur, reach consensus, or quorum among scholars as to the accurate English translation of the Latin phrase "Palman qui meruit ferat". The author would also request a monetary honorarium for this effort to reach the correct English translation of each school's respective motto. Author's email: reganfraser@yahoo.com ReganFraser ( talk) 19:51, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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