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This content is quite good, but I don't know if the title and "exception" framing are the best. I think it would be more common for scholars to refer to the first categories of speech as "low value speech" or similar. As we saw vividly in R.A.V., these categories are far from outside of the First Amendment, and thus framing them as "exceptions" is misleading. The problem of government employee speech might is not quite an exception, either (more like a waiver). Perhaps it would make more sense to treat government employee speech with its own article. Similarly, schools and prisons have received special consideration in the case law, but perhaps these can just be viewed as environments where the government has a strong interest on the scale. Government as speaker isn't really an exception either. If you really think of the government as the speaker, then a case where the speaker wins is hardly an exception. I agree that all of the subheadings in this article have some utility as doctrinal categories that are analyzed as such in the literature and (sometimes) in the cases; my discomfort only relates to lumping them all together as "exceptions." Just my two cents. Savidan 22:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
So, First Amendment free speech law? That could work. Thanks for the help! Lord Roem ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Very unhappy with the DYK hook for this article, btw. Hillmon is a hearsay exception (i.e. it is hearsay but is admissible). Commercial speech et al. are not free speech exceptions (i.e. they are speech and are constitutionally protected). The real irony of this is not only do we know for sure that all of these categories receive quite a bit of constitutional protection, most of these categories (especially commercial speech and fighting words) are on life support. That is, many very much doubt whether they receive any less protection than any other speech. Savidan 23:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, what about sexual and non-sexual harrassment as exceptions? And things like disorderly conduct, where swearing at a cop could get you arrested? The snare ( talk) 15:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Connolly15 ( talk · contribs) 14:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
A good article is—
Criteria | Notes | Result |
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(a) (prose) | The article is well written, but uses language which is too "legalistic" given that the subject is likely to attract a wide audience (Please see WP:TECHNICAL for advice on how to approach this issue). The prose stitches together quotations from Supreme Court rulings quite a bit - perhaps adding more explanatory prose would assist in bringing the level down a notch. |
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(b) (MoS) | Generally the article complies with MoS, but on two minor points: (1) The link to incitement is incorrect as that article seems to only cover English law; and (2) the article switches between two different styles of lists in the prose (using "Firstly, Secondly," and then "(1) ... (2)") |
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Criteria | Notes | Result |
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(a) (references) | The reviewer has no notes here. |
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(b) (citations to reliable sources) | Difficult to comment as most citations are either to a textbook (not available online) or original court decisions. |
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(c) (original research) | Again, difficult to comment to what degree Original Research and WP:Synthesis may be an issue as I don't have access to the textbook. Ideally, the article should cite academics who have interpreted the case law, rather than the case law itself. |
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Notes | Result |
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The interpretations of Professor Volokh are given a lot of weight in the article and no other interpretations from other academics are provided. |
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The reviewer has no notes here. |
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This article covers a popular topic and has a lot of potential. Nominator requested that the GA review be closed so that the article can go to peer review. |
--> As I don't have a lot of experience, I will ask for a second opinion from a "mentor" on these points. Connolly15 ( talk) 13:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Connolly15 asked me to comment here as this is their first GA review. Some of my comments are directed at the article, some at the review.
My comments here should be considered suggestions only. Though I hope that resolving the problems I point out here would work toward dealing w/ the issues in the GA review, Connoly15 has not asked for a second opinion so they hold the final decision authority on passing or failing the article.
How can this page be considered complete without any reference to United States v. Stevens? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nstrauss ( talk • contribs) 21:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
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I got to this page from a Google search. It didn't have what I was looking for: this page is only about content. There are lots of other limits on what the first amendment protects. I don't know them well enough to write anything without a whole lot of work, nor do I know where to find them on WP. But we should at least link them from this page. -- Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 22:52, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
plz change "exceptions" to "illegal laws" since these laws abridge speech. interesting that the freedom of speech is mentioned AFTER religion, which again seems absolute. freedom of speech was considered absolute — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.114.255.4 ( talk) 22:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Posting here to try to move the discussion out of the edit summaries. There's a back-and-forth editing over the definition of "free speech". My position is one mirrored by the Freedom of speech page on Wikipedia (emphasis added):
"Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury."
Which is to say, "freedom in speech" is the ability to speak without restriction. So if there is a restriction, then that is a limitation on freedom of speech. Whether the restriction is legal, moral, or otherwise justifiable has no bearing on whether it actually restricts the "free speech" or not. Of course it does: all restriction on the freedom to speak, restrict "free speech". This is because "free speech" is the freedom to speak.
This is in contrast to the counter-opinion, that "free speech" is simply a synonym for legally protected speech (which in the U.S. could be described as "First Amendment protected speech"). Its not that this definition is incorrect (since we can define words to mean whatever we want them to mean, after all), its that this definition isn't widely adopted on Wikipedia. And this is probably with good reason. For example, the Chinese constitution also guarantees freedom of speech, and I presume their courts have ruled that all their legal restrictions on saying certain words do not, in fact, violate the Chinese constitution. Should we therefore also say that the Chinese government has no restrictions on free speech? I think not!-- Masebrock ( talk) 07:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
FreeSpeechGuy's edit summary says:
"That's overwhelmingly wrong. Incitement is not free speech. You're defining the specific concept of "free speech" as any and all speech. If it was any and all speech, it wouldn't be a specific concept with a specific name. Incitement, threats, etc are not exceptions because they are not free speech in the first place"
To which I respond: "Freedom of speech" is a term that is contrasted with the word "speech", by distinguishing that there are no legal restrictions upon it. Its the same difference between "free-range chicken" and "chicken".
If we were to follow your definition of "free speech" here (as speech that is legally protected), we would have to say that "the U.S. has free speech, but places limitations on the freedom of speech". Which may be intelligible only to lawyers, since colloquially "free speech" and "freedom of speech" are synonymous. And once again, its not that this is incorrect, its that it differs significantly from the standard use in the rest of Wikipedia.-- Masebrock ( talk) 04:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
This is an article about "free speech" in the United States. Speaking of any other country is irrelevant. Stop doing that. Furthermore, you keep arguing my points for me. "Free speech" is more than a legal concept. As I've said, it is any and all expression which does not violate the rights of others. In the United States, the First Amendment recognizes this right almost perfectly; it does not define a right - something a government cannot do in any logical sense.
Once again, incitement et al is not free speech. It has never been recognized as free speech in any philosophy, including (and relevantly) the philosophies that underpin the US Constitution and the beliefs of its founding fathers. If it is not free speech, then its illegality cannot possibly be an exception. (An 'exception' to a right is merely a violation of a right, like laws against 'hate speech' or blasphemy.) FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 04:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
No, it is not relevant. The phrase refers to views of free speech that are completely different from the US view. Only US case law and philosophies of the Founding Fathers are relevant here.
You're intentionally misrepresenting what I've clearly laid out: Free speech is any and all speech which does not violate the rights of others. It is not merely any and all speech. If it was, then the phrase becomes meaningless because it fails to identify any specific category or categories of speech.
Furthermore, your attempt to give a neutral definition is philosophically incoherent. The ability to speak freely doesn't exist in a vacuum. If one person able to say absolutely anything, even in violation of another person's rights, then no other person is able to speak freely since that ability is predicated on not fearing for one's safety (among other things). That is, if "free speech" means person A can incite violence on person B in response to person B saying he has an opinion person A dislikes, then person B does not, in fact, have "free speech" under your (or any) definition. Person B's ability to speak freely would necessarily be chilled by the prospect of violence. You want free speech to exist in a vacuum with your definition, but it doesn't. Rights never do. That is why incitement et al cannot logically be defined as free speech.
Modern US case law entirely supports what I've laid out here (and the fact that this entire page should either be deleted or renamed, an option which doesn't seem to exist). In Tinker, Brandenburg, Cohen, Texas v Johnson, Virginia v Black, and every other major decision of the past 70 years, the decisions have been predicated on whether or not a law or ordinance infringes upon the rights of others. In instances where a person did not have an inherent right being infringed upon (such as US vs American Library Association), the law/ordinance in question stood. This is First Amendment case law 101 stuff. Free speech in the United States is unique in that it is fully recognized rather than restricted; it isn't understood to (uselessly) mean any and all speech. It is a specific category of speech which specifically relates to and exists within the rights of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeSpeechGuy ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
That isn't the definition of free speech I gave you. You're inserting specific concepts of natural rights when I haven't mentioned them at all. You're either ignorant of this entire topic or you're simply being dishonest.
It isn't an ideology to say that rights don't exist within a vacuum. They don't. They exist in a balance with each other, not in violation of (or 'exception to') each other.
I've addressed your citation of one Wikipedia page multiple times. I'll do it again. The UN/European/South American/Australian/etc understanding of "freedom of speech" is necessarily different from what free speech means in US case law.
Your argument goes off the rails from here. I do not argue that restrictions shouldn't be called restrictions. I argue that exceptions and restrictions are violations. Furthermore, I do not argue that restrictions increase net speech. I have no idea what you're even trying to argue here. I also argue nothing about well-being. You were literally wrong 3 different times in one sentence. And that's just in your assessment of what my argument even is. I don't know why you claim every modern restriction on speech is done with the stated purpose of benefiting people in the country. Aside from that claim being dubious in the first place, it's not relevant. Your parenthetical point about hate speech laws seems to imply you think the US has them. It does not. I'll let you guess why they are unconstitutional here.
Regarding your two definitions, I feel like I'm in a YouTube comment section. Your first definition is not what you've been arguing. You've been trying to define free speech any and all speech. "To speak freely" implies a lot. "Being free" to do something does not and has never meant "being able to do whatever one pleases". I currently have free movement. That doesn't mean I'm therefore free to move my hand into someone's skull - nor does it mean that the illegality of moving my hand into someone's skull is a restriction or exception to my free movement. Your second definition continues to move the goal posts, just like it did last time. No one is talking about positive or negative impacts on others. The normative nature of violating the rights of others is irrelevant here. It is enough that rights violations happen at all. That is, free speech is defined within the context of other rights (and not in a vacuum). It doesn't matter if free speech impacts others negatively. Indeed, many things that fall under free speech impact others negatively. That has no bearing on the nature of the speech.
This has been a tremendous waste of time. You aren't on point about anything here, nor are you familiar with US case law or its general history, for that matter. If you are, you haven't given hint to that fact. The definition of "free speech" has absolutely nothing to do with its impact on others; it's unclear why you've introduced this brand new, irrelevant topic. "Free speech" is a human right, and like with all human rights, it exists within a world where it must be defined so as to be universal to all humans. If "free speech" is defined to include any and all speech, then it includes incitement and threats. If it includes those, then it ceases to be a right for anyone who is (or fears to be) a victim of incitement or threats. "Free speech", then, necessarily ceases to be universal. There's a reason you've been refusing to engage in this point in good faith. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 10:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Your dishonesty is hampering this discussion. Stop intentionally misrepresenting literally everything.
Rights don't exist in a vacuum. You definition does. Furthermore, "speak freely" is itself loaded since "freely" is undefined. You want it to mean "without any legal restriction", but rights exist independently of laws. Moreover, the way you want to use that term makes your definition a tautology. If "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then for there to be 'exceptions' to free speech at all would be free speech can't exist. That is, if "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then the existence of legal restrictions on free speech means free speech doesn't exist at all.
Your second point is still a lie. Stop lying. "Free speech" is the right (not an 'ability) to speech and expression that does not violate the rights of others. If you were approaching this discussion with any honesty, you would stop trying to rephrase this definition to suit your needs.
This isn't "lawyer-speak". Moreover, this is an article about legal 'exceptions'. You've lost this point. Abandon it.
I was speaking specifically within the context of incitement and threats. Both of those non-free speech pieces of speech necessarily cause others to fear for their safety. That isn't to say rights are dependent upon any person's well-being. You're scattered and projecting your own beliefs where they are not warranted.
I'm not looking to write anything about hate speech laws here, so that point is irrelevant. Indeed, other articles about hate speech laws correctly identify such laws as a restriction on free speech.
Again, laws against incitement don't exist because they cause others to fear for their safety. That's the effect they have, but it isn't the reason why such laws are Constitutional in the United States. They're Constitutional because they violate the rights of others, so state (and the federal) governments have no restrictions on themselves to pass such laws. Fundamentally, the Constitution (and the First Amendment, specifically) is a restriction on government that recognizes rights governments cannot violate.
Once again, this article is about free speech in the United States, not free speech as defined by the UN or Germany or Russia or Australia. Your desire to overtly dismiss that concept as it is specifically defined through the US Constitution and centuries of case law only speaks to your ideology on this matter.
Free speech is the human right to speak and express one's self without violating the rights of others. It is not merely (and uselessly) any speech. If it was, we'd just call it any speech. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 00:11, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
"The common definition of "free speech", as it is used in the "freedom of speech" and "Freedom of speech by country" pages is "speech without legal restriction"."
If "free speech" is "speech without legal restrictions", then speech which DOES have legal restrictions is NOT free speech. Ergo, speech such as incitement (restricted), threats (restricted), and fighting words (restricted) are not free speech. Ergo, incitement et al are not restrictions on or exceptions to free speech.
Nothing about rights existing within the context of others rights is 'injecting human rights theory'. You're blathering about nothing. It's an objective fact that there are multiple types of rights within the world and they exist with each other and between individuals.
"But this is not so. Free speech could easily exist: all a government would have to do is not pass any laws that restrict speech." You didn't understand what was said. If "free speech" is defined as the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then any legal restriction necessarily renders "free speech" moot; "free speech" can't exist in a restricted environment if it is inherently defined as something which exists without restrictions. Your objection - that a government would merely need to not pass any laws that restrict speech - entirely misses the fact that the point being made here is specifically about exceptions and how they fit into your definition. That is, if "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, and a government does, in fact, have legal restrictions, then that government can not have free speech. And, yet, the US DOES have free speech.
"That every government chooses to do so, doesn't render the concept of "free speech" meaningless..." Just to reiterate where you missed everything being discussed here: A government choosing to place restrictions on speech only renders the concept of "free speech" meaningless if we use your definition of "free speech". Again, if "free speech" is defined as a lack of legal restrictions, then any legal restriction means we are either no longer dealing with "free speech" or the legal entity in question is in violation of free speech. (In the case of 'hate speech' laws, all such legal entities are in violation of free speech, but I digress.)
But I believe you've already ceded the argument with your own citation of other Wikipedia articles. You've specifically claimed that "free speech" is speech without legal restriction. That means speech that DOES have legal restrictions is NOT free speech. This article should either be noted as the misnomer it is or it should be renamed. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 07:10, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
"This article was clearly intended to treat "free speech" as a state-of-being, not an action itself..." Free speech is neither an ability nor an action. It's not even merely speech (but, rather, also expression). Moreover, SCOTUS has extensively ruled for and against defendants depending on whether the issue at hand was speech/expression (which is often protected) or conduct. Brandenburg v Ohio provides the most important example of this in the 20th century.
"Re human rights: It is not an "objective fact" that human rights exist, and the NPOV demands that we cannot edit Wikipedia in a way that assumes they do." Yes, it is. "Free speech" is not something which is defined by government. And, in particular, the underlying theory of free speech in the United States is that it is recognized.
To Reidgreg, Justice Stevens (while still a justice in 1993) has specifically written on "THE freedom of speech". He is quite clear that the phrase has been expanded by case law to include a host of protected forms of communication, including arms bands, parades, artistic expression, and flag burning, amongst other things. That is, "the freedom of speech" refers to protected forms of communication. It does NOT refer to any and all communication (or mere abilities to speak and/or express one's self).
"The amendment has never been understood to protect all oral communication, no matter how unlawful, threatening of vulgar it may be. Thus, it seems doubtful that the word 'speech' was used in its most ordinate sense."
https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/ylj/vol102/iss6/1 (pdf)
Justice Stevens goes on to cite that free speech is a fundamental right rather than a mere legal right, as found in past cases. He also draws a routine difference between unprotected and protected speech. The latter - that is, protected speech - is synonymous with "the freedom of speech" as sought by the Founding Fathers and expanded by the Court. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 05:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Masebrock:, that simply is not true. At no point is "free speech" defined as an ability. Anywhere. The very page you cite opens by defining it as a principle. If you aren't interested in this topic, stop participating. You aren't adding anything useful.
@ Reidgreg: The entire issue is still a misnomer. My preference (which only became available to me recently) is to completely change the name of the article. @ Abelmoschus Esculentus: is currently trolling my efforts (and failing to read the history page where Masebrock specifically suggested I change the title), but you can see in the page history that I would like to change the name to "Unprotected speech in the United States". This reflects that "any speech" and "free speech" are not the same thing (as described in every other Wikipedia article), and it more accurately reflects that this issue is about legal protections (or the lack thereof). FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 10:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Free speech is any and all speech which does not violate the rights of others. It is not merely any and all speech. If it was, there would be no reason to specify "free", nor would it be a distinguishable concept in the first place. As such, true threats, fighting words, etc are not exceptions to free speech since each one of those things violates the rights of others. They simply are not free speech at all.
A far, far, far more accurate title for this article would be "Unprotected speech in the United States". This gets around the fact that the current title makes the implicit claim that things like incitement and child pornography are free speech. And since this is an article primarily based around United States law, it also comports with the fact that the First Amendment says Congress can't make laws that violate freedom of speech. We clearly have laws against child pornography and incitement, and those laws clearly do not violate the First Amendment. It stands to (wildly straight-forward) logic that those things do not fall under the umbrella of "free speech".
There isn't a single right anyone can name that allows one person to violate the rights of others. Not one. Why make a weird exception for the right to free speech? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeSpeechGuy ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Seconded. The title is designed to justify calls for censorship. Legally, it's nonsense. 67.242.186.84 ( talk) 06:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
The RfC tag was removed after RfC participants noted that this is a not proper RfC question. The RfC initiator clarified, "My intention was to ask whether we should use the legal definition of 'free speech' or the colloquial one, both of which are used in RS."
There is no prejudice against opening a new RfC to discuss this better formulated question.
Does the United States actually have free speech exceptions? Masebrock ( talk) 22:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Masebrock, what is this colloquial definition of free speech that you keep referring to, and what reliable sources support it? R2 ( bleep) 17:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
References
I believe that Threatening the President of the United States is an unlisted exception to the freedom of speech as saying, for example, "I am going to kill the president" is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 871. Just saying that phrase unless in certain contexts (like this one) is enough to get yourself arrested even if you were not actually planning to do so. -- Pithon314 ( talk) 15:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
References
Do things like stolen valor and impersonating an officer fall under this? MasterHedgehog76 ( talk) 05:01, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Does "public disclosure of private facts" in U.S. tort law qualify as a free speech exception (i.e. private actors publishing or circulating true information about a non-public figure that is not of public concern)? -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 17:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Even if the laws for threatening the president, specifically, have slightly different requirements than laws about true threats in general, it seems like "true threats" are one of the categories of exception, and "true threats against the president" are a subcategory of unprotected speech. True threats against people other than the president are unprotected, so that should absolutely be its own category. Virginia v. Black deals with the requirements for true threats, and while Watts v. United States was about speech targeting the president, it established that hyperbolic speech doesn't count as a threat, which applies to all laws against threats.
User CommonKnowledgeCreator who doesn't have a user page (IP editor? If so, not a problem, just not sure, so am unable to ping him or her) has added as many as a dozen "Further reading" links to EACH section of the article. I don't want to cause an edit war with this user by removing all the Wikilinks and then CommonKC adding them back etc. (I'm not suggesting that would happen or making bad faith accusations, just know how these things sometimes are.) More importantly, I see from the history log for the article that CommonKC has added these Wikilinks gradually over time, with care. I don't want to barrel in with a heavy hand as I sometimes do with tag bombing or External Link abuse, as this is a different situation.
The problems here are Wikipedia style per WP:MOS and accuracy.
The style aspect: If all these topics are indeed related to the subject of the article, or are examples of exceptions to free speech in the United States, then they should be incorporated into the content of the article. Lots of things are related to other things, but it is unhelpful to any reader to have to chase down so many Wikilinks. This is especially the case since it isn't clear which are examples and which are related concepts. Also, there are just too many of them!
Regarding accuracy: As CommonKC said in this talk page's prior discussion of "Public disclosure of private facts", CommonKC is not a lawyer (i.e. not an expert) and doesn't have access to a law library. I am not a lawyer either. That is why I am uneasy by making so many additions to this article without discussion on the talk page first. Other editors did this, see sections of this talk page titled "Threatening the President of the United States" and "Stolen Valor". CommonKC did so too in the section "Public disclosure of private facts" and discussed that addition with User:Masebrock. That is what I would like to see CommonKC do more of.-- FeralOink ( talk) 01:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
The military section should mention that a service member's free speech rights are different depends on if they are in uniform. Military policy is that an active service member should not engage in protests or advocacy while in uniform, but may generally engage in such activities in their civilian clothes. SnappingTurtle ( talk) 05:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
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This content is quite good, but I don't know if the title and "exception" framing are the best. I think it would be more common for scholars to refer to the first categories of speech as "low value speech" or similar. As we saw vividly in R.A.V., these categories are far from outside of the First Amendment, and thus framing them as "exceptions" is misleading. The problem of government employee speech might is not quite an exception, either (more like a waiver). Perhaps it would make more sense to treat government employee speech with its own article. Similarly, schools and prisons have received special consideration in the case law, but perhaps these can just be viewed as environments where the government has a strong interest on the scale. Government as speaker isn't really an exception either. If you really think of the government as the speaker, then a case where the speaker wins is hardly an exception. I agree that all of the subheadings in this article have some utility as doctrinal categories that are analyzed as such in the literature and (sometimes) in the cases; my discomfort only relates to lumping them all together as "exceptions." Just my two cents. Savidan 22:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
So, First Amendment free speech law? That could work. Thanks for the help! Lord Roem ( talk) 00:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Very unhappy with the DYK hook for this article, btw. Hillmon is a hearsay exception (i.e. it is hearsay but is admissible). Commercial speech et al. are not free speech exceptions (i.e. they are speech and are constitutionally protected). The real irony of this is not only do we know for sure that all of these categories receive quite a bit of constitutional protection, most of these categories (especially commercial speech and fighting words) are on life support. That is, many very much doubt whether they receive any less protection than any other speech. Savidan 23:29, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, what about sexual and non-sexual harrassment as exceptions? And things like disorderly conduct, where swearing at a cop could get you arrested? The snare ( talk) 15:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Connolly15 ( talk · contribs) 14:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
A good article is—
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(a) (prose) | The article is well written, but uses language which is too "legalistic" given that the subject is likely to attract a wide audience (Please see WP:TECHNICAL for advice on how to approach this issue). The prose stitches together quotations from Supreme Court rulings quite a bit - perhaps adding more explanatory prose would assist in bringing the level down a notch. |
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(b) (MoS) | Generally the article complies with MoS, but on two minor points: (1) The link to incitement is incorrect as that article seems to only cover English law; and (2) the article switches between two different styles of lists in the prose (using "Firstly, Secondly," and then "(1) ... (2)") |
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Criteria | Notes | Result |
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(a) (references) | The reviewer has no notes here. |
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(b) (citations to reliable sources) | Difficult to comment as most citations are either to a textbook (not available online) or original court decisions. |
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(c) (original research) | Again, difficult to comment to what degree Original Research and WP:Synthesis may be an issue as I don't have access to the textbook. Ideally, the article should cite academics who have interpreted the case law, rather than the case law itself. |
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Notes | Result |
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The interpretations of Professor Volokh are given a lot of weight in the article and no other interpretations from other academics are provided. |
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Notes | Result |
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The reviewer has no notes here. |
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Result | Notes |
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This article covers a popular topic and has a lot of potential. Nominator requested that the GA review be closed so that the article can go to peer review. |
--> As I don't have a lot of experience, I will ask for a second opinion from a "mentor" on these points. Connolly15 ( talk) 13:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Connolly15 asked me to comment here as this is their first GA review. Some of my comments are directed at the article, some at the review.
My comments here should be considered suggestions only. Though I hope that resolving the problems I point out here would work toward dealing w/ the issues in the GA review, Connoly15 has not asked for a second opinion so they hold the final decision authority on passing or failing the article.
How can this page be considered complete without any reference to United States v. Stevens? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nstrauss ( talk • contribs) 21:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
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I got to this page from a Google search. It didn't have what I was looking for: this page is only about content. There are lots of other limits on what the first amendment protects. I don't know them well enough to write anything without a whole lot of work, nor do I know where to find them on WP. But we should at least link them from this page. -- Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 22:52, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
plz change "exceptions" to "illegal laws" since these laws abridge speech. interesting that the freedom of speech is mentioned AFTER religion, which again seems absolute. freedom of speech was considered absolute — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.114.255.4 ( talk) 22:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Posting here to try to move the discussion out of the edit summaries. There's a back-and-forth editing over the definition of "free speech". My position is one mirrored by the Freedom of speech page on Wikipedia (emphasis added):
"Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury."
Which is to say, "freedom in speech" is the ability to speak without restriction. So if there is a restriction, then that is a limitation on freedom of speech. Whether the restriction is legal, moral, or otherwise justifiable has no bearing on whether it actually restricts the "free speech" or not. Of course it does: all restriction on the freedom to speak, restrict "free speech". This is because "free speech" is the freedom to speak.
This is in contrast to the counter-opinion, that "free speech" is simply a synonym for legally protected speech (which in the U.S. could be described as "First Amendment protected speech"). Its not that this definition is incorrect (since we can define words to mean whatever we want them to mean, after all), its that this definition isn't widely adopted on Wikipedia. And this is probably with good reason. For example, the Chinese constitution also guarantees freedom of speech, and I presume their courts have ruled that all their legal restrictions on saying certain words do not, in fact, violate the Chinese constitution. Should we therefore also say that the Chinese government has no restrictions on free speech? I think not!-- Masebrock ( talk) 07:35, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
FreeSpeechGuy's edit summary says:
"That's overwhelmingly wrong. Incitement is not free speech. You're defining the specific concept of "free speech" as any and all speech. If it was any and all speech, it wouldn't be a specific concept with a specific name. Incitement, threats, etc are not exceptions because they are not free speech in the first place"
To which I respond: "Freedom of speech" is a term that is contrasted with the word "speech", by distinguishing that there are no legal restrictions upon it. Its the same difference between "free-range chicken" and "chicken".
If we were to follow your definition of "free speech" here (as speech that is legally protected), we would have to say that "the U.S. has free speech, but places limitations on the freedom of speech". Which may be intelligible only to lawyers, since colloquially "free speech" and "freedom of speech" are synonymous. And once again, its not that this is incorrect, its that it differs significantly from the standard use in the rest of Wikipedia.-- Masebrock ( talk) 04:49, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
This is an article about "free speech" in the United States. Speaking of any other country is irrelevant. Stop doing that. Furthermore, you keep arguing my points for me. "Free speech" is more than a legal concept. As I've said, it is any and all expression which does not violate the rights of others. In the United States, the First Amendment recognizes this right almost perfectly; it does not define a right - something a government cannot do in any logical sense.
Once again, incitement et al is not free speech. It has never been recognized as free speech in any philosophy, including (and relevantly) the philosophies that underpin the US Constitution and the beliefs of its founding fathers. If it is not free speech, then its illegality cannot possibly be an exception. (An 'exception' to a right is merely a violation of a right, like laws against 'hate speech' or blasphemy.) FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 04:52, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
No, it is not relevant. The phrase refers to views of free speech that are completely different from the US view. Only US case law and philosophies of the Founding Fathers are relevant here.
You're intentionally misrepresenting what I've clearly laid out: Free speech is any and all speech which does not violate the rights of others. It is not merely any and all speech. If it was, then the phrase becomes meaningless because it fails to identify any specific category or categories of speech.
Furthermore, your attempt to give a neutral definition is philosophically incoherent. The ability to speak freely doesn't exist in a vacuum. If one person able to say absolutely anything, even in violation of another person's rights, then no other person is able to speak freely since that ability is predicated on not fearing for one's safety (among other things). That is, if "free speech" means person A can incite violence on person B in response to person B saying he has an opinion person A dislikes, then person B does not, in fact, have "free speech" under your (or any) definition. Person B's ability to speak freely would necessarily be chilled by the prospect of violence. You want free speech to exist in a vacuum with your definition, but it doesn't. Rights never do. That is why incitement et al cannot logically be defined as free speech.
Modern US case law entirely supports what I've laid out here (and the fact that this entire page should either be deleted or renamed, an option which doesn't seem to exist). In Tinker, Brandenburg, Cohen, Texas v Johnson, Virginia v Black, and every other major decision of the past 70 years, the decisions have been predicated on whether or not a law or ordinance infringes upon the rights of others. In instances where a person did not have an inherent right being infringed upon (such as US vs American Library Association), the law/ordinance in question stood. This is First Amendment case law 101 stuff. Free speech in the United States is unique in that it is fully recognized rather than restricted; it isn't understood to (uselessly) mean any and all speech. It is a specific category of speech which specifically relates to and exists within the rights of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeSpeechGuy ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
That isn't the definition of free speech I gave you. You're inserting specific concepts of natural rights when I haven't mentioned them at all. You're either ignorant of this entire topic or you're simply being dishonest.
It isn't an ideology to say that rights don't exist within a vacuum. They don't. They exist in a balance with each other, not in violation of (or 'exception to') each other.
I've addressed your citation of one Wikipedia page multiple times. I'll do it again. The UN/European/South American/Australian/etc understanding of "freedom of speech" is necessarily different from what free speech means in US case law.
Your argument goes off the rails from here. I do not argue that restrictions shouldn't be called restrictions. I argue that exceptions and restrictions are violations. Furthermore, I do not argue that restrictions increase net speech. I have no idea what you're even trying to argue here. I also argue nothing about well-being. You were literally wrong 3 different times in one sentence. And that's just in your assessment of what my argument even is. I don't know why you claim every modern restriction on speech is done with the stated purpose of benefiting people in the country. Aside from that claim being dubious in the first place, it's not relevant. Your parenthetical point about hate speech laws seems to imply you think the US has them. It does not. I'll let you guess why they are unconstitutional here.
Regarding your two definitions, I feel like I'm in a YouTube comment section. Your first definition is not what you've been arguing. You've been trying to define free speech any and all speech. "To speak freely" implies a lot. "Being free" to do something does not and has never meant "being able to do whatever one pleases". I currently have free movement. That doesn't mean I'm therefore free to move my hand into someone's skull - nor does it mean that the illegality of moving my hand into someone's skull is a restriction or exception to my free movement. Your second definition continues to move the goal posts, just like it did last time. No one is talking about positive or negative impacts on others. The normative nature of violating the rights of others is irrelevant here. It is enough that rights violations happen at all. That is, free speech is defined within the context of other rights (and not in a vacuum). It doesn't matter if free speech impacts others negatively. Indeed, many things that fall under free speech impact others negatively. That has no bearing on the nature of the speech.
This has been a tremendous waste of time. You aren't on point about anything here, nor are you familiar with US case law or its general history, for that matter. If you are, you haven't given hint to that fact. The definition of "free speech" has absolutely nothing to do with its impact on others; it's unclear why you've introduced this brand new, irrelevant topic. "Free speech" is a human right, and like with all human rights, it exists within a world where it must be defined so as to be universal to all humans. If "free speech" is defined to include any and all speech, then it includes incitement and threats. If it includes those, then it ceases to be a right for anyone who is (or fears to be) a victim of incitement or threats. "Free speech", then, necessarily ceases to be universal. There's a reason you've been refusing to engage in this point in good faith. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 10:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)
Your dishonesty is hampering this discussion. Stop intentionally misrepresenting literally everything.
Rights don't exist in a vacuum. You definition does. Furthermore, "speak freely" is itself loaded since "freely" is undefined. You want it to mean "without any legal restriction", but rights exist independently of laws. Moreover, the way you want to use that term makes your definition a tautology. If "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then for there to be 'exceptions' to free speech at all would be free speech can't exist. That is, if "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then the existence of legal restrictions on free speech means free speech doesn't exist at all.
Your second point is still a lie. Stop lying. "Free speech" is the right (not an 'ability) to speech and expression that does not violate the rights of others. If you were approaching this discussion with any honesty, you would stop trying to rephrase this definition to suit your needs.
This isn't "lawyer-speak". Moreover, this is an article about legal 'exceptions'. You've lost this point. Abandon it.
I was speaking specifically within the context of incitement and threats. Both of those non-free speech pieces of speech necessarily cause others to fear for their safety. That isn't to say rights are dependent upon any person's well-being. You're scattered and projecting your own beliefs where they are not warranted.
I'm not looking to write anything about hate speech laws here, so that point is irrelevant. Indeed, other articles about hate speech laws correctly identify such laws as a restriction on free speech.
Again, laws against incitement don't exist because they cause others to fear for their safety. That's the effect they have, but it isn't the reason why such laws are Constitutional in the United States. They're Constitutional because they violate the rights of others, so state (and the federal) governments have no restrictions on themselves to pass such laws. Fundamentally, the Constitution (and the First Amendment, specifically) is a restriction on government that recognizes rights governments cannot violate.
Once again, this article is about free speech in the United States, not free speech as defined by the UN or Germany or Russia or Australia. Your desire to overtly dismiss that concept as it is specifically defined through the US Constitution and centuries of case law only speaks to your ideology on this matter.
Free speech is the human right to speak and express one's self without violating the rights of others. It is not merely (and uselessly) any speech. If it was, we'd just call it any speech. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 00:11, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
"The common definition of "free speech", as it is used in the "freedom of speech" and "Freedom of speech by country" pages is "speech without legal restriction"."
If "free speech" is "speech without legal restrictions", then speech which DOES have legal restrictions is NOT free speech. Ergo, speech such as incitement (restricted), threats (restricted), and fighting words (restricted) are not free speech. Ergo, incitement et al are not restrictions on or exceptions to free speech.
Nothing about rights existing within the context of others rights is 'injecting human rights theory'. You're blathering about nothing. It's an objective fact that there are multiple types of rights within the world and they exist with each other and between individuals.
"But this is not so. Free speech could easily exist: all a government would have to do is not pass any laws that restrict speech." You didn't understand what was said. If "free speech" is defined as the ability to speak without legal restrictions, then any legal restriction necessarily renders "free speech" moot; "free speech" can't exist in a restricted environment if it is inherently defined as something which exists without restrictions. Your objection - that a government would merely need to not pass any laws that restrict speech - entirely misses the fact that the point being made here is specifically about exceptions and how they fit into your definition. That is, if "free speech" is the ability to speak without legal restrictions, and a government does, in fact, have legal restrictions, then that government can not have free speech. And, yet, the US DOES have free speech.
"That every government chooses to do so, doesn't render the concept of "free speech" meaningless..." Just to reiterate where you missed everything being discussed here: A government choosing to place restrictions on speech only renders the concept of "free speech" meaningless if we use your definition of "free speech". Again, if "free speech" is defined as a lack of legal restrictions, then any legal restriction means we are either no longer dealing with "free speech" or the legal entity in question is in violation of free speech. (In the case of 'hate speech' laws, all such legal entities are in violation of free speech, but I digress.)
But I believe you've already ceded the argument with your own citation of other Wikipedia articles. You've specifically claimed that "free speech" is speech without legal restriction. That means speech that DOES have legal restrictions is NOT free speech. This article should either be noted as the misnomer it is or it should be renamed. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 07:10, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
"This article was clearly intended to treat "free speech" as a state-of-being, not an action itself..." Free speech is neither an ability nor an action. It's not even merely speech (but, rather, also expression). Moreover, SCOTUS has extensively ruled for and against defendants depending on whether the issue at hand was speech/expression (which is often protected) or conduct. Brandenburg v Ohio provides the most important example of this in the 20th century.
"Re human rights: It is not an "objective fact" that human rights exist, and the NPOV demands that we cannot edit Wikipedia in a way that assumes they do." Yes, it is. "Free speech" is not something which is defined by government. And, in particular, the underlying theory of free speech in the United States is that it is recognized.
To Reidgreg, Justice Stevens (while still a justice in 1993) has specifically written on "THE freedom of speech". He is quite clear that the phrase has been expanded by case law to include a host of protected forms of communication, including arms bands, parades, artistic expression, and flag burning, amongst other things. That is, "the freedom of speech" refers to protected forms of communication. It does NOT refer to any and all communication (or mere abilities to speak and/or express one's self).
"The amendment has never been understood to protect all oral communication, no matter how unlawful, threatening of vulgar it may be. Thus, it seems doubtful that the word 'speech' was used in its most ordinate sense."
https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/ylj/vol102/iss6/1 (pdf)
Justice Stevens goes on to cite that free speech is a fundamental right rather than a mere legal right, as found in past cases. He also draws a routine difference between unprotected and protected speech. The latter - that is, protected speech - is synonymous with "the freedom of speech" as sought by the Founding Fathers and expanded by the Court. FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 05:14, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
@ Masebrock:, that simply is not true. At no point is "free speech" defined as an ability. Anywhere. The very page you cite opens by defining it as a principle. If you aren't interested in this topic, stop participating. You aren't adding anything useful.
@ Reidgreg: The entire issue is still a misnomer. My preference (which only became available to me recently) is to completely change the name of the article. @ Abelmoschus Esculentus: is currently trolling my efforts (and failing to read the history page where Masebrock specifically suggested I change the title), but you can see in the page history that I would like to change the name to "Unprotected speech in the United States". This reflects that "any speech" and "free speech" are not the same thing (as described in every other Wikipedia article), and it more accurately reflects that this issue is about legal protections (or the lack thereof). FreeSpeechGuy ( talk) 10:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Free speech is any and all speech which does not violate the rights of others. It is not merely any and all speech. If it was, there would be no reason to specify "free", nor would it be a distinguishable concept in the first place. As such, true threats, fighting words, etc are not exceptions to free speech since each one of those things violates the rights of others. They simply are not free speech at all.
A far, far, far more accurate title for this article would be "Unprotected speech in the United States". This gets around the fact that the current title makes the implicit claim that things like incitement and child pornography are free speech. And since this is an article primarily based around United States law, it also comports with the fact that the First Amendment says Congress can't make laws that violate freedom of speech. We clearly have laws against child pornography and incitement, and those laws clearly do not violate the First Amendment. It stands to (wildly straight-forward) logic that those things do not fall under the umbrella of "free speech".
There isn't a single right anyone can name that allows one person to violate the rights of others. Not one. Why make a weird exception for the right to free speech? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FreeSpeechGuy ( talk • contribs) 06:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Seconded. The title is designed to justify calls for censorship. Legally, it's nonsense. 67.242.186.84 ( talk) 06:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
The RfC tag was removed after RfC participants noted that this is a not proper RfC question. The RfC initiator clarified, "My intention was to ask whether we should use the legal definition of 'free speech' or the colloquial one, both of which are used in RS."
There is no prejudice against opening a new RfC to discuss this better formulated question.
Does the United States actually have free speech exceptions? Masebrock ( talk) 22:23, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Masebrock, what is this colloquial definition of free speech that you keep referring to, and what reliable sources support it? R2 ( bleep) 17:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
References
I believe that Threatening the President of the United States is an unlisted exception to the freedom of speech as saying, for example, "I am going to kill the president" is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 871. Just saying that phrase unless in certain contexts (like this one) is enough to get yourself arrested even if you were not actually planning to do so. -- Pithon314 ( talk) 15:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
References
Do things like stolen valor and impersonating an officer fall under this? MasterHedgehog76 ( talk) 05:01, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Does "public disclosure of private facts" in U.S. tort law qualify as a free speech exception (i.e. private actors publishing or circulating true information about a non-public figure that is not of public concern)? -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 17:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Even if the laws for threatening the president, specifically, have slightly different requirements than laws about true threats in general, it seems like "true threats" are one of the categories of exception, and "true threats against the president" are a subcategory of unprotected speech. True threats against people other than the president are unprotected, so that should absolutely be its own category. Virginia v. Black deals with the requirements for true threats, and while Watts v. United States was about speech targeting the president, it established that hyperbolic speech doesn't count as a threat, which applies to all laws against threats.
User CommonKnowledgeCreator who doesn't have a user page (IP editor? If so, not a problem, just not sure, so am unable to ping him or her) has added as many as a dozen "Further reading" links to EACH section of the article. I don't want to cause an edit war with this user by removing all the Wikilinks and then CommonKC adding them back etc. (I'm not suggesting that would happen or making bad faith accusations, just know how these things sometimes are.) More importantly, I see from the history log for the article that CommonKC has added these Wikilinks gradually over time, with care. I don't want to barrel in with a heavy hand as I sometimes do with tag bombing or External Link abuse, as this is a different situation.
The problems here are Wikipedia style per WP:MOS and accuracy.
The style aspect: If all these topics are indeed related to the subject of the article, or are examples of exceptions to free speech in the United States, then they should be incorporated into the content of the article. Lots of things are related to other things, but it is unhelpful to any reader to have to chase down so many Wikilinks. This is especially the case since it isn't clear which are examples and which are related concepts. Also, there are just too many of them!
Regarding accuracy: As CommonKC said in this talk page's prior discussion of "Public disclosure of private facts", CommonKC is not a lawyer (i.e. not an expert) and doesn't have access to a law library. I am not a lawyer either. That is why I am uneasy by making so many additions to this article without discussion on the talk page first. Other editors did this, see sections of this talk page titled "Threatening the President of the United States" and "Stolen Valor". CommonKC did so too in the section "Public disclosure of private facts" and discussed that addition with User:Masebrock. That is what I would like to see CommonKC do more of.-- FeralOink ( talk) 01:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
The military section should mention that a service member's free speech rights are different depends on if they are in uniform. Military policy is that an active service member should not engage in protests or advocacy while in uniform, but may generally engage in such activities in their civilian clothes. SnappingTurtle ( talk) 05:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)