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Was this article translated into bad English by some machine? Some of the claims sounded odd, so I followed up one sentence, which went: "Other women were coerced into prostitutes by South Korean government and U.S. officials."[15] Following up on reference 15, it specifically contradicted coercion: "While the women have made no claims that they were coerced into prostitution by South Korean or American officials during those years..." It sounds like the governments might have facilitated prostitution, but not coerced it. Bad enough, as it is, but accuracy is important. Prostitution was certainly rampant; I was acquainted with at least two US soldiers who while in SK had live-in "rent-a-wives". But this article appears to be in serious need of attention from someone who knows something about the subject. Cyberherbalist ( talk) 05:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
"Poorly written" is the tip of the iceberg. It's written by someone with minimal understanding of English grammar. It feels like most of this was translated via Google by someone with a huge POV bias. Meishern ( talk) 01:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
If the word "wianbu" is included in the article, and I think it should be, then it must be defined for the reader as first applying to Japanese comfort women who were primarily not prostitutes, but instead were coerced, raped and even killed. When the term wianbu continued to be used after 1945, it was without the sense of coercion or violence. So its first use was as a euphemism for forced sexual slavery, but after Japan's surrender it was a euphemism for willing prostitute or willing war-bride. Binksternet ( talk) 03:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't understand Binksternet's point of view. This article has an obligation to explain the official terms used. Shii (tock) 15:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The term 慰安婦 pronounced ianfu in Japanese and wianbu in Korean. Has always meant prostitute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.152.14 ( talk) 09:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
The principle of wianbu in the Japanese army and after has been the same. Wianbu in the Japanese army had always been considered to be prostitutes in Korea until the early 1990's. That is why the name was used for military prostitutes after WWII, same job - same name. I don't understand why people nowdays say that the wianbu during WWII were not prostitutes - this is not history but politics. The definition of a prostitute is a women who sells sex, during WWII the wianbu were paid for sex - alot of money. Some estimates put the nationality of WWII ianfu at 40% Japanese.
There are 2 very important primary sources that most people avoid. I don't know why these sources are avoided - they are first hand reports. One is an official report from the USA army while WWII continued and the other is from a book interviewing mainly Australian POW's. The first is Report No. 49: Japanese POW Interrogation on Prostitution ( http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html). Burma Basic salary 1.5Yen 30mins (monthly salary of a 2nd class private in the Imperial army, in WWII was 6Yen).
Quotes "A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute" "They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places." "The girls complained that even with the schedule congestion was so great that they could not care for all guests, thus causing ill feeling among many of the soldiers." "This meant that in an average month a girl would gross about fifteen hundred yen." - A HUGE AMMOUNT OF MONEY, OVER 20 YEARS SALARY OF A JAPANESE SOLDIER IN ONE MONTH "The girls were allowed the prerogative of refusing a customer"
The second is The Consolation Unit: Comfort Women at Rabaul (summarized here http://www.japanfocus.org/-Hank-Nelson/2426) New Guinea Basic salary 2Yen 30 mins Quote "Captain John Murphy, captured on a coastwatching mission in 1943, was the only Australian military prisoner alive in Rabaul at the end of the war. Having served as a government officer in the civil administration of New Guinea in the prewar, he was on familiar ground. He was imprisoned in Chinatown in Ah Teck’s tailor’s shop where he had been fitted for his newest pair of civilian trousers.[20] In another Chinatown building they would sometimes see, Murphy said, the women of the ‘8th Consolation Unit’: a barefoot ‘frumpy lot’ they were unlike the painted geishas the prisoners expected. They flashed their bodies, beckoned and mocked the prisoners. An American pilot imprisoned with Murphy, Joseph Nason, recalled that one day as the prisoners were returning from a work site, a guard, Okano, called the women: ‘One of the girls leaned over the balcony and squealed, “Fuckee, fuckee!” with appropriate gestures of her hand’ but the prisoners in their weakened state had no capacity to respond, let alone overcome what other moral and practical inhibitions might have restrained them. Seeing the lack of response, one of the women ‘coyly drew back her kimono and displayed her sex. The other girls playfully tried to cover her up again, but their efforts resulted in even more exposure’.[21] Nason asked a quiet (and embarrassed guard) where the girls were from and he said they were from China and Korea. When asked if they came willingly, he claimed he did not know. One night the prisoners heard a ‘wild disturbance’ and pistol shots coming from the direction of the ‘Comfort House’. Soon after, a brutally battered Japanese soldier was flung into their cell. That in itself was unusual: for a Japanese soldier to be so degraded that he was cast among prisoners of war meant that he had committed a gross violation of Japanese military law. The prisoners soon found that the soldier had died, but by leaving him propped up in a sitting position they were able to claim his rations for four meals. New Guineans were brought in to carry away the body. The prisoners were told that the dead soldier’s crime was trying to get into the Comfort House at a time when it was reserved for officers.[22]"
The discovery of her savings account records at the Shimonoseki post office in 1992 revealed that it had a balance of 25,245 yen saved during her life as a comfort woman in Burma and Thailand from 1942 to 1945
One Korean former comfort woman, Mun Ok-chu, working in Burma, saved 26145 yen for two years and seven months, 843 yen a month, and sent 5000 yen back to her parents, though she was not able to withdraw money when military currency lost its value in 1945.
Even though these establishments were expensive to operate and prices were high— one short session with a forced sex worker normally cost between 1.5 and 2 yen ( when the monthly salary of a Japanese soldier was between 6 and 10 yen)—many profited handsomely.
There are many alternative names in the lead section. According to MOS:LEADALT, "if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section". I think it will improve the readability of the lead. The lead should be more focused on the summary of this article.―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 01:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I am not confident about this proposal, so I don't initiate a requested move this time. The initial title of this article was Western princess, then it was moved to Korean prostitution for the U.S. military and further to the current name Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military. I think the title should be Prostitutes for the U.S. military in South Korea because the focus is not "Prostitutes in South Korea" but apparently "Prostitutes for the U.S. military". ―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 02:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The article appears to be highly focused on a POV which serves to be negative towards those service in United States Forces Korea and its relation to illegal prostitution. As such I am tagging this article, and suggesting it be worked on.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 19:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I suggest making a balance between:
It is definitely an issue which is emotionally charged. So lets separate the facts (what has been happening) from the attitudes (how do Koreans and other feel about it).
Here's some information contributing by a U.S. soldier which simply tries to "tell it like it is". [3] -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 13:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear, this is indeed a very biased propaganda piece written by Japanese nationalists. Perhaps they should worry more about China right now but that is beside the point. The aim of the piece is to equivocate the comfort women issue of mass rapes by the Japanese during World War Two. Political projects like that have no place on Wikipedia, no matter how desperately they are written up. Akafd76 03:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akafd76 ( talk • contribs)
Hi, I'm a wikipedian, but I'm also an active duty United States military member currently in Korea. I came across this page and I'm going to try to expand it and improve it as possible. I think that it's good that this page exists, because the issues that this article covers are important simply because they have a substantial impact on United States South Korean relations. This article is also relevant to the history of the United States Military. Just a few months ago, in June of 2013, a change in U.S. policy regarding "Juicy" bars resulted in almost a month of large scale protests in korea, and weeks of coverage on national korean television. I will provide references for any material I add, and I am open to reasonable compromise on any issues. Also, I know that this is an international encyclopedia, and I will try to remove my own bias as an U.S. military member as much as possible. I thought I would try to contribute, because very few people have the first hand experiance with these specific issues in this article like I do.-- DrunkDriver ( talk) 07:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Just a quick comment: Many of the sources for this article seem to me to be highly ideological and of dubious reliability. It is very common for dishonest people to attempt to create the impression of factual documentation by providing many footnotes to sources which appear to be aimed more at winning converts to some ideological position and fomenting hatred and conflict. It seems to me Wikipedia is supposed to be scientific history, which is about documenting the facts of the past, not assigning blame. I would urge the contributors of this page to take another look at the reliability of the sources from this perspective. Thanks. Gunnermanz ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:37, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 18:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military → Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.N. military – Because not only U.S. soldiers were client NiceDay ( talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC) As we can see in File:Registration of comfort women.jpg, comfort women did not work only for U.S. soldiers. So the article name is incorrect. --Relisted. walk victor falk talk 22:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC) NiceDay ( talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Both versions of the title are bad. First, it should be about "prostitution", not "prostitutes"; then, the order of modifiers is grammatically awkward (if anything, it would be far more natural to say "prostitution for the XYZ military in South Korea"). A simple, natural title would be Military prostitution in South Korea, which is what many reliable sources use. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
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I attempted to clean up the article further, but the concerns previously voice by others about a heavily biased Point-of-View and statements that disagree with citations still haven't been fully addressed. A few of the linked sources are in Korean, so if we could get a Korean-speaker to verify that statements are actually in citations that would help.
I also agree with an earlier editor that this should likely be merged into the article about Prostitution in Korea to avoid redundancies.
Daskies ( talk) 01:32, 21 June 2017 (UTC) User:Daskies
What exactly is the POV here? Zezen ( talk) 11:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As a previous posters have noted, this page should probably be folded into the Prostitution_in_South_Korea page. There's a great deal of redundancy between the two and placing the relevant bits of this page there will hopefully even out some of the ongoing POV issues.
Ergo I'm initializing a formal merger proposal.
Reve ( talk) 23:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - To engage in prostitution, or sex work, means to offer sexual services in exchange for payment, be it money, goods, services, or other benefits the transacting parties agree on in the absence of any physical, verbal or other coercion. At this point, this page includes instances of coercive labour situations in businesses catering to U.S. military personnel, i.e. women being forced into these businesses. Since the conflation of sex work and commercial sexual exploitation of adults ("human trafficking") is already an opened can of worms, I suggest to leave this page separate. One could discuss the merits and demerits of folding this page into the Comfort_women page but that might draw a strong response as these issues are very contentious. Happy to discuss this further, keeping it concise for now.
I would like to apologise if commenting on this proposal via editing this entry is not the appropriate procedure.
Satellithias ( talk) 13:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I note there has been some conflicting editing. I have made changes as follows.
1. Reinstated 1 million prostitutes. This is well referenced. If an individual doesn't agree with that it's not relevant.
2. Reverted back to 'Since the 2000s, the majority of prostitutes have been Philippine or Russian'. Again this is well reference. The state report does say 'Some foreign women on E6-2 entertainment visas—mostly from the Philippines, China, and Kyrgyzstan—are subjected to forced prostitution in entertainment establishments near ports and U.S. military bases., but this is talking about trafficked women not the prostitutes overall.
3. The trafficked women is significant fact so I have included that (but used the 2017 Trafficking in Persons Report as the reference John B123 ( talk) 17:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
This article is inaccurate. I served in Korea with US military from 2005-08. Woman from many countries, not just the Philippines are known as "juicy" girls. Another is that while regrettably the US besmirched it honor allowing the practice to proliferate by many members utilizing them, they cracked down hard on it. Even before the crackdown other foreign national laborers still keep the practice going strong even though US military has cracked down. Jwunderwood007 ( talk) 06:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The infobox for the current version of this article depicts two women identified as North Korean nurses standing in the middle of four men identified as US & ROK Soldiers. Given the scene and the source article, we do not know if these particular women were indeed forced to become prostitutes, do we? As actual people photographed and depicted, who may or may not still be alive, who have their image being used on Wikipedia in these circumstances, we should probably be using a different photograph if we want some kind of illustration for the infobox. What do other editors think? Regards, AzureCitizen ( talk) 21:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
'By 1953, the total number of prostitutes amounted to 350,000[44][45] as camptown prostitution became a permanent structure in South Korea after the Korean War. Between the 1950s and 1960s, 60% of South Korean prostitutes worked near U.S. military camps.[44][45]'
First, Korean government statistics are more reliable than individual claims.
I saw these books. but The authors of these books provide no basis.
Sceond , Based on U.S. military numbers, their claims are common sense.
/info/en/?search=United_States_Forces_Korea#Number_of_U.S._soldiers_stationed_in_South_Korea_by_year
1953 326,863 1954 225,590 1955 75,328 1960 55,864
In 1953, The total number of U.S. military numbers was 326,863 and was withdrawn sequentially. Although the total number of customers is below 330,000 , it is against common sense that 220,000 are prostitutes.
In addition, since 1954, the number of prostitutes has been greatly reduced since the USFK has been significantly reduced. In 1953 and 1954 and later, the pattern was completely different.
'as camptown prostitution became a permanent structure' : Also, this part is missing from the book.
Therefore, the description is wrong.
'In 1992, there were about 18,000 registered and 9,000 unregistered South Korean women around U.S. military bases.[68]'
Korean government statistics are more reliable than Philippines NGO.
Most of all, U.S. military prostitutes are required to register, but it does not make any difference to official statistics.
and
Since the mid-1990s, foreigners make up 80–85% of the women working at clubs near military bases.[74] : Let's pay attention to this
This would be false if there were 27,000 domestic prostitutes. Contradictions with other facts occur.
Therefore, the description is wrong.
The Korean government or news is most reliable than other country data.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight 정보통통통통 ( talk) 15:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
References
According to the Korean Ministry of Health and Welfare, There are only 46,375 sexually transmitted screenings .... If each prostitute was screened several times, the number of prostitutes could be lower than 46,375, if not all the prostitutes were tested then the number of prostitutes could be higher. As there are unknown variables connected to this statistic, it doesn't support you claim of the government figues.
You should bring other evidence that the Korean government supported the '350,000 prostitutes theory'. It doesn't need to be supported by the Korean government to be factual. -- John B123 ( talk) 16:17, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
'However, don't get stuck on the discussionWhichever side you happen to be on, try to move the discussion towards consensus by getting pro/con points identified so that a new edit may be attempted as quickly as possible. ' 'Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.'
I agree that the 350,000 either needs to be reworded at least. Something like "the number of prostitutes has been reported to be as high as 350,000" with much more focus on the more valid sources. The 350,000 number does not come from sources that majorily focus on the topic, or to be more precise, that have no empirical methods. They just recite the number. The stated original source indeed seems very hard to find (S. P. Yi 1964). Yi Sang-paek is actually a very famous sociologist, but without the original source, the quality of that stated number cannot be assessed. The given year (1964) is two years before his death and he does not seems to have anything published then. Anyways, sources with empirical analyses show much lower number, even those that consider dark figures and recognize that underaged people were not registered. When searching in Korean, there can be find a lot, but I think the given sources are already appropriate for the article. -- Christian140 ( talk) 13:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
I asked the professor (John Lie), who wrote the paper, about the source Yi, Sang-paek 1964, 227 as I also searched for it and could not find anything. He said he remembers it to be an essay in a Korean periodical, but also couldn't find it anymore when he did an internet search. He suspects he could have made a Romanization mistake. It seems the source for the 350,000 is lost forever. I tried everything and nothing comes up at all. -- Christian140 ( talk) 08:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
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Was this article translated into bad English by some machine? Some of the claims sounded odd, so I followed up one sentence, which went: "Other women were coerced into prostitutes by South Korean government and U.S. officials."[15] Following up on reference 15, it specifically contradicted coercion: "While the women have made no claims that they were coerced into prostitution by South Korean or American officials during those years..." It sounds like the governments might have facilitated prostitution, but not coerced it. Bad enough, as it is, but accuracy is important. Prostitution was certainly rampant; I was acquainted with at least two US soldiers who while in SK had live-in "rent-a-wives". But this article appears to be in serious need of attention from someone who knows something about the subject. Cyberherbalist ( talk) 05:52, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
"Poorly written" is the tip of the iceberg. It's written by someone with minimal understanding of English grammar. It feels like most of this was translated via Google by someone with a huge POV bias. Meishern ( talk) 01:34, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
If the word "wianbu" is included in the article, and I think it should be, then it must be defined for the reader as first applying to Japanese comfort women who were primarily not prostitutes, but instead were coerced, raped and even killed. When the term wianbu continued to be used after 1945, it was without the sense of coercion or violence. So its first use was as a euphemism for forced sexual slavery, but after Japan's surrender it was a euphemism for willing prostitute or willing war-bride. Binksternet ( talk) 03:43, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I don't understand Binksternet's point of view. This article has an obligation to explain the official terms used. Shii (tock) 15:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The term 慰安婦 pronounced ianfu in Japanese and wianbu in Korean. Has always meant prostitute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.136.152.14 ( talk) 09:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
The principle of wianbu in the Japanese army and after has been the same. Wianbu in the Japanese army had always been considered to be prostitutes in Korea until the early 1990's. That is why the name was used for military prostitutes after WWII, same job - same name. I don't understand why people nowdays say that the wianbu during WWII were not prostitutes - this is not history but politics. The definition of a prostitute is a women who sells sex, during WWII the wianbu were paid for sex - alot of money. Some estimates put the nationality of WWII ianfu at 40% Japanese.
There are 2 very important primary sources that most people avoid. I don't know why these sources are avoided - they are first hand reports. One is an official report from the USA army while WWII continued and the other is from a book interviewing mainly Australian POW's. The first is Report No. 49: Japanese POW Interrogation on Prostitution ( http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html). Burma Basic salary 1.5Yen 30mins (monthly salary of a 2nd class private in the Imperial army, in WWII was 6Yen).
Quotes "A "comfort girl" is nothing more than a prostitute" "They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places." "The girls complained that even with the schedule congestion was so great that they could not care for all guests, thus causing ill feeling among many of the soldiers." "This meant that in an average month a girl would gross about fifteen hundred yen." - A HUGE AMMOUNT OF MONEY, OVER 20 YEARS SALARY OF A JAPANESE SOLDIER IN ONE MONTH "The girls were allowed the prerogative of refusing a customer"
The second is The Consolation Unit: Comfort Women at Rabaul (summarized here http://www.japanfocus.org/-Hank-Nelson/2426) New Guinea Basic salary 2Yen 30 mins Quote "Captain John Murphy, captured on a coastwatching mission in 1943, was the only Australian military prisoner alive in Rabaul at the end of the war. Having served as a government officer in the civil administration of New Guinea in the prewar, he was on familiar ground. He was imprisoned in Chinatown in Ah Teck’s tailor’s shop where he had been fitted for his newest pair of civilian trousers.[20] In another Chinatown building they would sometimes see, Murphy said, the women of the ‘8th Consolation Unit’: a barefoot ‘frumpy lot’ they were unlike the painted geishas the prisoners expected. They flashed their bodies, beckoned and mocked the prisoners. An American pilot imprisoned with Murphy, Joseph Nason, recalled that one day as the prisoners were returning from a work site, a guard, Okano, called the women: ‘One of the girls leaned over the balcony and squealed, “Fuckee, fuckee!” with appropriate gestures of her hand’ but the prisoners in their weakened state had no capacity to respond, let alone overcome what other moral and practical inhibitions might have restrained them. Seeing the lack of response, one of the women ‘coyly drew back her kimono and displayed her sex. The other girls playfully tried to cover her up again, but their efforts resulted in even more exposure’.[21] Nason asked a quiet (and embarrassed guard) where the girls were from and he said they were from China and Korea. When asked if they came willingly, he claimed he did not know. One night the prisoners heard a ‘wild disturbance’ and pistol shots coming from the direction of the ‘Comfort House’. Soon after, a brutally battered Japanese soldier was flung into their cell. That in itself was unusual: for a Japanese soldier to be so degraded that he was cast among prisoners of war meant that he had committed a gross violation of Japanese military law. The prisoners soon found that the soldier had died, but by leaving him propped up in a sitting position they were able to claim his rations for four meals. New Guineans were brought in to carry away the body. The prisoners were told that the dead soldier’s crime was trying to get into the Comfort House at a time when it was reserved for officers.[22]"
The discovery of her savings account records at the Shimonoseki post office in 1992 revealed that it had a balance of 25,245 yen saved during her life as a comfort woman in Burma and Thailand from 1942 to 1945
One Korean former comfort woman, Mun Ok-chu, working in Burma, saved 26145 yen for two years and seven months, 843 yen a month, and sent 5000 yen back to her parents, though she was not able to withdraw money when military currency lost its value in 1945.
Even though these establishments were expensive to operate and prices were high— one short session with a forced sex worker normally cost between 1.5 and 2 yen ( when the monthly salary of a Japanese soldier was between 6 and 10 yen)—many profited handsomely.
There are many alternative names in the lead section. According to MOS:LEADALT, "if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section". I think it will improve the readability of the lead. The lead should be more focused on the summary of this article.―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 01:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I am not confident about this proposal, so I don't initiate a requested move this time. The initial title of this article was Western princess, then it was moved to Korean prostitution for the U.S. military and further to the current name Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military. I think the title should be Prostitutes for the U.S. military in South Korea because the focus is not "Prostitutes in South Korea" but apparently "Prostitutes for the U.S. military". ―― Phoenix7777 ( talk) 02:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The article appears to be highly focused on a POV which serves to be negative towards those service in United States Forces Korea and its relation to illegal prostitution. As such I am tagging this article, and suggesting it be worked on.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 19:04, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I suggest making a balance between:
It is definitely an issue which is emotionally charged. So lets separate the facts (what has been happening) from the attitudes (how do Koreans and other feel about it).
Here's some information contributing by a U.S. soldier which simply tries to "tell it like it is". [3] -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 13:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear, this is indeed a very biased propaganda piece written by Japanese nationalists. Perhaps they should worry more about China right now but that is beside the point. The aim of the piece is to equivocate the comfort women issue of mass rapes by the Japanese during World War Two. Political projects like that have no place on Wikipedia, no matter how desperately they are written up. Akafd76 03:52, 2 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akafd76 ( talk • contribs)
Hi, I'm a wikipedian, but I'm also an active duty United States military member currently in Korea. I came across this page and I'm going to try to expand it and improve it as possible. I think that it's good that this page exists, because the issues that this article covers are important simply because they have a substantial impact on United States South Korean relations. This article is also relevant to the history of the United States Military. Just a few months ago, in June of 2013, a change in U.S. policy regarding "Juicy" bars resulted in almost a month of large scale protests in korea, and weeks of coverage on national korean television. I will provide references for any material I add, and I am open to reasonable compromise on any issues. Also, I know that this is an international encyclopedia, and I will try to remove my own bias as an U.S. military member as much as possible. I thought I would try to contribute, because very few people have the first hand experiance with these specific issues in this article like I do.-- DrunkDriver ( talk) 07:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Just a quick comment: Many of the sources for this article seem to me to be highly ideological and of dubious reliability. It is very common for dishonest people to attempt to create the impression of factual documentation by providing many footnotes to sources which appear to be aimed more at winning converts to some ideological position and fomenting hatred and conflict. It seems to me Wikipedia is supposed to be scientific history, which is about documenting the facts of the past, not assigning blame. I would urge the contributors of this page to take another look at the reliability of the sources from this perspective. Thanks. Gunnermanz ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:37, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was no consensus. -- BDD ( talk) 18:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military → Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.N. military – Because not only U.S. soldiers were client NiceDay ( talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC) As we can see in File:Registration of comfort women.jpg, comfort women did not work only for U.S. soldiers. So the article name is incorrect. --Relisted. walk victor falk talk 22:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC) NiceDay ( talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Both versions of the title are bad. First, it should be about "prostitution", not "prostitutes"; then, the order of modifiers is grammatically awkward (if anything, it would be far more natural to say "prostitution for the XYZ military in South Korea"). A simple, natural title would be Military prostitution in South Korea, which is what many reliable sources use. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
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I attempted to clean up the article further, but the concerns previously voice by others about a heavily biased Point-of-View and statements that disagree with citations still haven't been fully addressed. A few of the linked sources are in Korean, so if we could get a Korean-speaker to verify that statements are actually in citations that would help.
I also agree with an earlier editor that this should likely be merged into the article about Prostitution in Korea to avoid redundancies.
Daskies ( talk) 01:32, 21 June 2017 (UTC) User:Daskies
What exactly is the POV here? Zezen ( talk) 11:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As a previous posters have noted, this page should probably be folded into the Prostitution_in_South_Korea page. There's a great deal of redundancy between the two and placing the relevant bits of this page there will hopefully even out some of the ongoing POV issues.
Ergo I'm initializing a formal merger proposal.
Reve ( talk) 23:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - To engage in prostitution, or sex work, means to offer sexual services in exchange for payment, be it money, goods, services, or other benefits the transacting parties agree on in the absence of any physical, verbal or other coercion. At this point, this page includes instances of coercive labour situations in businesses catering to U.S. military personnel, i.e. women being forced into these businesses. Since the conflation of sex work and commercial sexual exploitation of adults ("human trafficking") is already an opened can of worms, I suggest to leave this page separate. One could discuss the merits and demerits of folding this page into the Comfort_women page but that might draw a strong response as these issues are very contentious. Happy to discuss this further, keeping it concise for now.
I would like to apologise if commenting on this proposal via editing this entry is not the appropriate procedure.
Satellithias ( talk) 13:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
I note there has been some conflicting editing. I have made changes as follows.
1. Reinstated 1 million prostitutes. This is well referenced. If an individual doesn't agree with that it's not relevant.
2. Reverted back to 'Since the 2000s, the majority of prostitutes have been Philippine or Russian'. Again this is well reference. The state report does say 'Some foreign women on E6-2 entertainment visas—mostly from the Philippines, China, and Kyrgyzstan—are subjected to forced prostitution in entertainment establishments near ports and U.S. military bases., but this is talking about trafficked women not the prostitutes overall.
3. The trafficked women is significant fact so I have included that (but used the 2017 Trafficking in Persons Report as the reference John B123 ( talk) 17:41, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
This article is inaccurate. I served in Korea with US military from 2005-08. Woman from many countries, not just the Philippines are known as "juicy" girls. Another is that while regrettably the US besmirched it honor allowing the practice to proliferate by many members utilizing them, they cracked down hard on it. Even before the crackdown other foreign national laborers still keep the practice going strong even though US military has cracked down. Jwunderwood007 ( talk) 06:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
The infobox for the current version of this article depicts two women identified as North Korean nurses standing in the middle of four men identified as US & ROK Soldiers. Given the scene and the source article, we do not know if these particular women were indeed forced to become prostitutes, do we? As actual people photographed and depicted, who may or may not still be alive, who have their image being used on Wikipedia in these circumstances, we should probably be using a different photograph if we want some kind of illustration for the infobox. What do other editors think? Regards, AzureCitizen ( talk) 21:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
'By 1953, the total number of prostitutes amounted to 350,000[44][45] as camptown prostitution became a permanent structure in South Korea after the Korean War. Between the 1950s and 1960s, 60% of South Korean prostitutes worked near U.S. military camps.[44][45]'
First, Korean government statistics are more reliable than individual claims.
I saw these books. but The authors of these books provide no basis.
Sceond , Based on U.S. military numbers, their claims are common sense.
/info/en/?search=United_States_Forces_Korea#Number_of_U.S._soldiers_stationed_in_South_Korea_by_year
1953 326,863 1954 225,590 1955 75,328 1960 55,864
In 1953, The total number of U.S. military numbers was 326,863 and was withdrawn sequentially. Although the total number of customers is below 330,000 , it is against common sense that 220,000 are prostitutes.
In addition, since 1954, the number of prostitutes has been greatly reduced since the USFK has been significantly reduced. In 1953 and 1954 and later, the pattern was completely different.
'as camptown prostitution became a permanent structure' : Also, this part is missing from the book.
Therefore, the description is wrong.
'In 1992, there were about 18,000 registered and 9,000 unregistered South Korean women around U.S. military bases.[68]'
Korean government statistics are more reliable than Philippines NGO.
Most of all, U.S. military prostitutes are required to register, but it does not make any difference to official statistics.
and
Since the mid-1990s, foreigners make up 80–85% of the women working at clubs near military bases.[74] : Let's pay attention to this
This would be false if there were 27,000 domestic prostitutes. Contradictions with other facts occur.
Therefore, the description is wrong.
The Korean government or news is most reliable than other country data.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight 정보통통통통 ( talk) 15:30, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
References
According to the Korean Ministry of Health and Welfare, There are only 46,375 sexually transmitted screenings .... If each prostitute was screened several times, the number of prostitutes could be lower than 46,375, if not all the prostitutes were tested then the number of prostitutes could be higher. As there are unknown variables connected to this statistic, it doesn't support you claim of the government figues.
You should bring other evidence that the Korean government supported the '350,000 prostitutes theory'. It doesn't need to be supported by the Korean government to be factual. -- John B123 ( talk) 16:17, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
'However, don't get stuck on the discussionWhichever side you happen to be on, try to move the discussion towards consensus by getting pro/con points identified so that a new edit may be attempted as quickly as possible. ' 'Be ready to compromise: If you browbeat someone into accepting your changes, you are not building consensus, you are making enemies. This cycle is designed to highlight strongly opposing positions, so if you want to get changes to stick both sides will have to bend, possibly even bow. You should be clear about when you are compromising and should expect others to compromise in return, but do not expect it to be exactly even.'
I agree that the 350,000 either needs to be reworded at least. Something like "the number of prostitutes has been reported to be as high as 350,000" with much more focus on the more valid sources. The 350,000 number does not come from sources that majorily focus on the topic, or to be more precise, that have no empirical methods. They just recite the number. The stated original source indeed seems very hard to find (S. P. Yi 1964). Yi Sang-paek is actually a very famous sociologist, but without the original source, the quality of that stated number cannot be assessed. The given year (1964) is two years before his death and he does not seems to have anything published then. Anyways, sources with empirical analyses show much lower number, even those that consider dark figures and recognize that underaged people were not registered. When searching in Korean, there can be find a lot, but I think the given sources are already appropriate for the article. -- Christian140 ( talk) 13:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
I asked the professor (John Lie), who wrote the paper, about the source Yi, Sang-paek 1964, 227 as I also searched for it and could not find anything. He said he remembers it to be an essay in a Korean periodical, but also couldn't find it anymore when he did an internet search. He suspects he could have made a Romanization mistake. It seems the source for the 350,000 is lost forever. I tried everything and nothing comes up at all. -- Christian140 ( talk) 08:13, 31 July 2020 (UTC)