This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | → | Archive 30 |
Independence should not be listed for the United States on the federal level. To do so is factually and legally inaccurate since the United States is a new entity founded after Independece was secured by the will of the people. I instead recomend that each states have listed the source of their independece from before joining the Union. That would nullify conflict, be legally accurate and not make false assumptions. Here in Louisiana we were never under British rule and to use a blanket independece would lead some ignorant of the history to assume that Louisiana was also subject to britian when that is grossly NOT the case.-- Billiot 03:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Atually what I am suggesting is to not have it listed at the federl level at all and instead amend each State Info box.-- Billiot 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, one more time I will state that someone READ the treaty of paris before putting this again. The treaty of paris does not grant indepentence to the United States and thus does not belong in this argument. Independece was not given or granted to the Americans by greaoge "randon number" but by the people of America. And by the way, if we are going to talk about people giving or granting independence then Wikipedia needs to be accurage and uniform for all Nations what so ever. So Louisiana was given independence by Nepolean and thus I have a serious problem with an article that makes it seem like the british were involved in any way what so ever. On another note, why doesn't the british page list their independence from France? Here is a really good one that you can't even argue with: why doesn't the Greek page list their independece from the Ottoman empire. Simple, it isn't needed. I have no problem putting relevant info into a history page but is it really needed here? I don't think so. AND AGAIN, I will ask that you PLEASE, PLEASE READ the treaty of paris so that you can have an idea of what you are talking about. The only reason to bicker over this point is to be specifically anti-American. It isn't about truth, or accuracy or fair play, or even just listening. This is all centered around trying to put America down. The british can teach whatever they want in their schools but that doesn't make it correct or right and may actually be causing a human rights violation if they go too far since people everywhere have a right to defend their HUMAN RIGHTS against violators going back to any time. -- Billiot 14:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The british crown may have had a claim to the nation, by the way that word actually means PEOPLE, and have had a claim to the land but it was unable to have these claims hold up in international court; since other countries recognized the states as independent well before britian; or the court of the battle field. And even later when the so called crown tried to lay another claim on persons and land again their claim did not hold up in the court of the battle field in 1812. Now since the treaty of paris is so often quoted by you people let me tell you what it is from an Internatinal Law and Political Science point of view. The treaty of paris allows british ships and british merchants into American waters and marketplaces. As to independence, Mr. grearge "random number" simply states what had already become a living breathing reality, that the states were independent, and the states whose independence he is forced to recognize so that his merchants could do business again are listed in the treaty and LOUISIANA is not one of them. You will notice that the states listed do not have to give any consideration, that is a legal term you have to look up, for this independence. They did not buy it from him or need his permission. The Americans went over there and basically said "do you understand now?" and the treaty of paris is him saying, "yah, yah, I got it." Had Mr. "random number" not signed it and the states and britain remained in a state of war it would not have changed a thing. America was already a full member of the international community with several countries siding with us irregardless of what the elector of hanover thought. The current federal government was not created at that time but was a later creation so the article needs to be clear in what it is talking about. Is it talking about the United States as in what is currently trying to be ONE country or is it talking about the United States as in independent states as in independent countries? Now since I am on the topic of the INFOBOX I would also like to mention that it seems strange to put so much extra info under the Government section when no other country does this. Could this just be people wanting to get a mention of their guy? If so then it doesn't belong in the Info Box. I know some people really really really feel like they need to get a mention but all that needs to be there is President unless you want to list all the Governors. If we list extra info for the US then we need to go around to every country's article and do the same. This extra kind of information belongs in an article on US politics and not in the info box. -- Billiot 15:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the article title not "United States of America"? Shoreranger 03:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
American history is a very rich history. It has been through many major wars and movements. Its constitution is so strong that it has had only 28 Amendments in its entire history. Many of its Amendments are for rights not included in the Constitution. The US has worked its way to being the most powerful nation on the planet with the most high tech arsenal of weapons.-- Purplethief1 17:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The Thing that always gets left out of these things is that the American colonies were seen as a burden to the British. The colonies enjoyed low tax (the lowest in The Empire and in the rest of the civilised world) and a good quality of life, which was not the case back in Britain, for this reason when the rebelion started Britain was not willing to use excesive manpower in re-establishing order to the colonies.
Could someone point me to the screenshot of when the United States article was deleted and it said something like "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. View 3000 deleted edits?" I remember seeing it but I don't remember where it was. -- BlastOButter42 See Hear Speak 06:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Please comment and weigh in on the nomination for deletion of North America (Americas). Thanks! Corticopia 00:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Before you vote, please make sure to read the article and the sources presented (click here), since the article nomination page is very confusing and misleading, and at the moment of the nomination, the article was not finished yet. It has been improved. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 13:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to those who commented on this prior AfD. Even though an apparent consensus supported the prior AfD in some way (and the article has been deleted), this has reared its ugly head again -- please peruse and weigh in. Thanks! Corticopia 16:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a nice picture for California like beaches, and people in Santa Monica or Malibu instead of high rise buildings picture placed between New York City and Chicago (which does not add much to the article in my opinion). Also something nice and quiet for Dixieland ( Louisiana) would be very welcome.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.234.208 ( talk) 06:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I'm new to this article, so please forgive me if the following concern has already been vetted: the lead section's third paragraph (in the current version) says the U.S. has been the sole world superpower since 1991. I think some sources would argue that China is now or will soon be a superpower as well. Shall we change the wording?-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 08:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Some would argue that this means nothing today as a new type of enemy has appeared, the enemy unknown. Also the fact that the super power hasn't managed to find one man hiding in a hill after a war dedicated on finding ONE man.
I think it is self evident the US is the only Super Power in the world at the moment. China and the PLA forces are certainly on the rise but they are decades from being considered a Super Power. Remember to be a Super Power you must be able project forces globally, China is only a regional power as they can't operate much outside their borders. Their technology levels are rather low considering they have to rely on Cold War Soviet technology for the bulk of their military purchases. 69.242.205.212 09:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The US was never really a superpower and only said to be one create the feeling we could defeat the USSR. The only war the US has won since World War 2 was the Persian Gulf War, and the was even with the help of a coalition force too.
According to you The United States of America is the only "Super Power" on earth I am american but i dont think china is relying on cold war technology. If USSR and china where to attack the United States we would be screwed.
By the way Mexico has an airforce?
"American football becoming very popular in many developed areas of the world, especially Canada and Germany, where most of the teams in NFL Europe reside." To suggest American football has an international dimension like baseball or basketball is very inaccurate. To describe it as very popular in Canada or Germany is stretching the truth.
I can see both sides to that. Obviously football is gaining ground, but it's nowhere close to baseball or basketball. I think the sentence should be left. Especially since there are now 2 games scheduled to take place outside of North America (London, and I think Tokyo). It could probably to be phrased differently, but it shouldn't be totally removed. 66.225.27.2 03:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not obvious that football is gaining ground, other than a few high profile events which are not unprecedented. It has no grass roots presence overseas unlike baseball and basketball. An article about the worlds leading democracy does not need POV speculation. 09:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggest changing the political status of the country to one of Dictatorship.
Dictionary.com defines a dictator as "a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.". With todays news about the US House vote to pull-out of war, and Pres. Bush vetoing it.... doesn't that mean he is now a dictator?
The chief justice doesn't have any real power, but seeing that the VP is also there, it might be a good thing to show the three branches of government in the US. 69.12.143.197 07:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that would make much sense. The VP and Speaker are there because they are the next 2 directly in line for the presidency and thus are extremely important. 66.225.27.2 03:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I have recently re-written the economy section. Making it more neutral, 4Kb shorter, yet more informative. While I am fond of the Wall Steet picture, I could really use the space for a pie-chart explaining economic stratification in the US. So, I have taken the liberty to add my pie chart and rm Wall Street. If you have any suggestion or feel really stronly about having the Wall Street Pic in there-let me know. Signature brendel 17:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The color red is not a neutral color for a country's map in my opinion. Red has a strong connotation of an "enemy country" in the US/Allies map to depict the Soviet Union and its allies during the cold war. SSZ 01:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we perhaps sprinkle flowers around the map, and add a little baby panda bear, to make it even sweeter and unthreatening? -- Golbez 05:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Who took out mention of the US and it's contributions to the Internet? I wouldn't think this is a minor detail since, you know, we're on the Internet right now.-- Rotten 15:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
"A recent BBC poll, interviewing 28,000 individuals in 27 counties, found that 51% of respondents saw the US as having a mostly negative effect on global affairs."
What's the point of that line being included in the article? Ryratt 19:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This artical contradicts every other page on the size of the united states in comparason to Canada and should probably be changed accordingly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.38.178.254 ( talk) 22:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Since when is the official name of the U.S. "The Federation of the United States of America?"
Isn't this an urban myth? As far as I know Britain offered representation several times but Ben Franklin (who wanted to accept it) was ordered to refuse because it would have led to less support for independance. Wayne 02:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC) who cares america kicks ass!!!!
This is wrong: "The long-term trend for wages of middle-income Americans has largely been stagnant since the 1970s and fallen for low-income earners, despite substantial gains in hourly labor productivity." The source given is a radio interview from NPR. I know that real wages (including counting job benefits like health insurance as part of income) have been increasing since the 1970's. I know they've increased every year since 1996, because I've seen the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The problem is I don't know where to find the data. Anyone know where to find it? I mean official, direct, data, not a radio interview, and not an article from the New York Times or some other untrustworthy rag like that. This is an egregious error that needs to be corrected. (Note that the data should include employment benefits. Just looking at take-home pay does not give the whole picture). BillyBoom 07:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Rjensen 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | "While most income gains in the US have gone mostly to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of the two-earner household have boosted the nation's standard of living. | ” |
Benifits can be mentioned in it's own section? To include benifits in wage statistics is POV for several reasons. The benifits of those that do get them gives a large bias to statistics giving the appearance everyone is better off rather than only a small proportion of the population which is deceptive. ie:There are 7.5 million on minimum wage with few if any benifits that have a real purchasing power 30% lower than 30 years ago.
The the average real wage for all production and nonsupervisory workers in the private sector is 14% lower than 30 years ago but including benifits is 5% higher (average of all workers). This looks good but 20% of these workers receive 80% of the benifits so you can see how this makes the data inaccurate.
Also companies in the US have exceptionally low taxes compared to the rest of the world. For example in my country you do not get any benifits from employers so they (and the workers) pay much higher taxes. The government provides our benifits which even the homeless receive (need a heart transplant? It's free, want a pension but never worked? No problem). Statistics always compare our income to Americas without taking benifits into consideration and I'm sure other countries do it the same way.
I think Brendans sentence is good if added to the original rather than replacing it. Wayne 10:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | While the bulk of income gains have gone to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of two-earner households have increased the nation's standard of living. | ” |
Bill, I'm not going to argue about w/ you here whether or not income inequality is rising- we will never agree or convince each other but most any college-level economics or sociology book as well as the US government agree that there is grave income inequality (look at the gini index). The 20% comes straight from the CIA factbook-if you disagree, then call the government ;-) That's sourced information which will appear in this article. Second, "The higher income people work longer hours than lower income people. That's why most of the income gains go to them."- that's far to great a simiplification. Some earn more than others beucase some have higher educational attainment (MDs have the highest $ of any profession- ca. 2/3 of PhDs are among the top 15% of earners.), are the children of wealthy parents (trust-fund babies and those who get a job becuase their dad runs the company), and yes hard working professionals in the upper middle class do often work more than others. However, the biggest inequality is not between the top 20% and the bottom 80%-it is the top 0.1% who are pulling far ahead of those hard working attorneys and doctors- no they don't work harder-their portfolio does (Men may also earn more than women, even they don't work harder). But that is a different story.
The following things will be mentioned:
Again, these statement combined into one sentence or small paragraph give a fair balance, are sourced and need to be included. Regards, Signature brendel 22:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought they were a good idea to have in the infobox.. why remove them? -- drumguy8800 C T 03:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The data on inequality in a nutshell: % of income received by highest 5% of families
Meaning: very little change 1945-2002. Heavy declines before then especiall in ww2. Source: Historical Statistics G36, G340; St Abstract 2005 p 447
“ | The Gini
index for households indicates that there has been growing income inequality over the past quarter-century. -US Census Bureau |
” |
“ | "The wage distribution
has become considerably more unequal with more highly skilled, trained, and educated workers at the top experiencing real wage gains and those at the bottom real wage losses. One factor is the shift in employment from those goodsproducing industries that have disproportionately provided" -US Census Bureau |
” |
“ | "In sum, when money income
is examined, each of these indicators shows increasing income inequality over the 1968 to 1994 period." -US Census Bureau |
” |
Wiki articles have to based on solid scholarship, of which there is plenty on inequality. Please drop the speculation and try quoting some reliable sources, that is serious economists. The problem of using raw data is the problem of OR -- that is it's too easy for editorts to do their own reinterpretation. That is not allowed in Wiki. Try reading Yellin: Janet L. Yellen, President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco November 6, 2006, "Economic Inequality in the United States" online at [6] Rjensen 00:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
To state my case, here are several quotes (some of which I have used during this discussion) that support the notion that income inequality is rising.
"When we look at data on the distribution of real wages, which constitute the bulk of compensation, we find striking evidence of increasing inequality" [7] -Ms. Yellen, CEO SF Federal Reserve
"we distinguished two periods: the Age of Shared Prosperity (1946-1975) and the Age of Growing Inequality (since 1975)... the general pattern is unmistakable in the data on wealth, income, earnings poverty..." (p. 291)- Dennis Gilbert, sociologist, Cornell University
""In sum, when money income is examined, each of these indicators shows increasing income inequality over the 1968 to 1994 period." -US Census Bureau
"The wage distribution has become considerably more unequal with more highly skilled, trained, and educated workers at the top experiencing real wage gains and those at the bottom real wage losses. One factor is the shift in employment from those goodsproducing industries that have disproportionately provided"- US Census Bureau
"The Gini index for households indicates that there has been growing income inequality over the past quarter-century. -US Census Bureau"- US Census Bureau
"The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households." -CIA factbook
"If you go back to 1979, prior to the period when the growth in inequality really took off in the United States, the top 5 percent on average had 11 times the average income of the bottom 20 percent. If you fast forward to the year 2000, the most recent economic peak, you find that that ratio increased to 19 times. So over the course of those two decades, the gap between the wealthiest and the lowest income families grew from 11 times to 19 times." -Jared Bernstein, co-director of research at the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, D.C., co-author of The State of Working America 2002/2003
I have provided these quotes for those coming here, via RfC and will not check this page again until 12 hours have elapsed and some new editors have had the chance to look at the issue. Regards, Signature brendel 01:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to add a paragraph stating that income inequality in the US has been rising over the past 30 years with most income gains going to the upper 20% since 1975. This statement is supported by the US entry in the CIA factbook and several US Census Bureau reports such as [8] as well as independent think-tank reports such as this. Furthermore, I have two college-level textbooks (Dennis Gilbert, The American Class Structure, Cornell University Press, 2002 and William Thompson & Joseph Hickey, Society in Focus, Pearson, 2005) supporting the statement that income inequality in the US is rising. Rjensen and BillyBoom, however, have argued that income inequality isn't rising and accused me of conduction OR and the discussion has stalled. Signature brendel 00:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an encyclopaedic artical not a blog so we need to provide the maximum amount of cited information using the minimum number of words. Brendels suggestion does that and complies with NPOV. BillBooms suggestion while factually correct (as is Brendels) removes much relevant information of interest to readers by masking it with a generalisation. This is POV. The fact that reliable sources that are seen by many/most to be conservative also agree with Brendel should be given weight. Wayne 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brendel's proposed addition violates WP:NPOV. Add one sentence saying "Economists disagree whether income inequality in the US is growing over time" and cite to the EPI and a contrary rebuttal of Billy Boom's choice. Perhaps add a second sentence citing one of the many economists who note that income inequality is a misleading measure, because it reflects immigration at the low end of the wage scale, while income has gone up relatively uniformly for the people who were in the country all thirty years (especially if one accounts for inter-quartile movement--I was in the bottom quintile 15 years ago, for example). One or two sentences in the socio-economic section are all that's needed. -- THF 21:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "income inequality" is actually an important concept in economics. I can't remember the figures offhand but there is an optimum range of inequality required for a healthy economy. If the income difference between rich and poor gets too large (or too small) the economy suffers. Therefor I suggest the word be kept as it is NPOV due to it's use in this field. We even have President Bush saying this during his Wall Street address on January 31 "The fact is that income inequality is real, it's been rising for more than 25 years."
According to the Congressional Budget Office, the wealthiest 20 percent of households accounted for 45.4 percent of total U.S. income in 1979, but claimed 53.5 percent in 2004. Households in the bottom fifth dropped from 5.8 to 4.1 percent over the same period. Economists are in agreement that inequality increases as GDP rises but the gains must be eventually passed down (lowering inequality) or the bottom drops out. This is why too much inequality is bad. Wayne 03:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is mainly for those who are not sure exactly what the RfC is about. Haemo may have overlooked the original discussion and the RfC is getting rather long lol.
This is the sentence in dispute:
"The long-term trend for wages of middle-income Americans has largely been stagnant since the 1970s and fallen for low-income earners, despite substantial gains in hourly labor productivity. While most income gains in the US have gone mostly to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of the two-earner household have boosted the nation's standard of living."
Several editors want to delete any reference to income inequality (or implied inequality) and want mention of income only if it includes benifits. The term income inequality is not mentioned although i feel it should be somewhere and that paragraph could be tidied a little. There is no inference in that paragraph that the economy is either good or bad. Wayne 15:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
In the second sentence of the article: "Forty-eight contiguous states lie in central North America between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, *bound* on land by Canada to the north", the word "bound" should be "bounded". (It would be "bound" if Canada "binds" the US to the north, but it doesn't, it "bounds" it...) 144.254.45.145 17:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
america is a biparty dictatoship, not a liberal democracy. it may not be catagorised as one since it is not· Lygophile has spoken 16:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Hehehe. I doubt Lygophile is attacking anyone because he is sort of on the right track. America is not a liberal democracy purely because there is no liberal (left leaning) political party. As for dictorship.... that can be a concept as well as a reality. Several years ago Prime Minister Howard was being questioned about pushing through legislation that the public did not want and he replied that Australian politics was not really a democracy but a benevolent dictatorship so he could do it. We can't elect our Prime minister so technically he is right but we would never call it that because we have democratic freedoms. America through the Presidential use of signing statements may technically be a biparty dictatorship (check the dictionary definition) but the freedoms outweigh the restrictions of that system so it can't be called that. Wayne 17:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I can tell you right now; whatever your delusions are, if the term dictatorship is ever put up on this page in reference to America you're gonna get so much shit raining down that it's not even gonna be funny. And dude, really, America is not a dictatorship. If it was, then it would be ruled solely by one person. That's it. Now there's something like 530 members in Congress, 9 Supreme Court Justices, and one President (who has loads of advisers) and that's only at the Federal level. America is not a dictatorship; America fought to be free from dictatorship. I have no delusions about understanding the Dutch government, so I can't comment on that, but I understand the American government, and I can tell you it's a democratic republic/liberal democracy, however you please to say it. I suggest you read the Constitution. Dooms Day349 20:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, please stop the personal attacks, and get back to discussing the categorization. Although I'm not an expert on political theory, my understanding is that the most important aspects of a liberal democracy are the protection of civil liberties and the imposed legality of public decisions made by elected officials. I think that America satisfies both of these criteria through institutions like the Bill of Rights and the system of checks and balances, respectively. The lack of political pluralism doesn't necessarily preclude America from being considered a liberal democracy. Calling it a biparty dictatorship is too extreme, since no one person or body has enough power to unilaterally make decisions, and all elected officials are still subject to the law (even if they're sometimes charged with offenses long after the fact.) -- Confiteordeo 13:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | → | Archive 30 |
Independence should not be listed for the United States on the federal level. To do so is factually and legally inaccurate since the United States is a new entity founded after Independece was secured by the will of the people. I instead recomend that each states have listed the source of their independece from before joining the Union. That would nullify conflict, be legally accurate and not make false assumptions. Here in Louisiana we were never under British rule and to use a blanket independece would lead some ignorant of the history to assume that Louisiana was also subject to britian when that is grossly NOT the case.-- Billiot 03:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Atually what I am suggesting is to not have it listed at the federl level at all and instead amend each State Info box.-- Billiot 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, one more time I will state that someone READ the treaty of paris before putting this again. The treaty of paris does not grant indepentence to the United States and thus does not belong in this argument. Independece was not given or granted to the Americans by greaoge "randon number" but by the people of America. And by the way, if we are going to talk about people giving or granting independence then Wikipedia needs to be accurage and uniform for all Nations what so ever. So Louisiana was given independence by Nepolean and thus I have a serious problem with an article that makes it seem like the british were involved in any way what so ever. On another note, why doesn't the british page list their independence from France? Here is a really good one that you can't even argue with: why doesn't the Greek page list their independece from the Ottoman empire. Simple, it isn't needed. I have no problem putting relevant info into a history page but is it really needed here? I don't think so. AND AGAIN, I will ask that you PLEASE, PLEASE READ the treaty of paris so that you can have an idea of what you are talking about. The only reason to bicker over this point is to be specifically anti-American. It isn't about truth, or accuracy or fair play, or even just listening. This is all centered around trying to put America down. The british can teach whatever they want in their schools but that doesn't make it correct or right and may actually be causing a human rights violation if they go too far since people everywhere have a right to defend their HUMAN RIGHTS against violators going back to any time. -- Billiot 14:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The british crown may have had a claim to the nation, by the way that word actually means PEOPLE, and have had a claim to the land but it was unable to have these claims hold up in international court; since other countries recognized the states as independent well before britian; or the court of the battle field. And even later when the so called crown tried to lay another claim on persons and land again their claim did not hold up in the court of the battle field in 1812. Now since the treaty of paris is so often quoted by you people let me tell you what it is from an Internatinal Law and Political Science point of view. The treaty of paris allows british ships and british merchants into American waters and marketplaces. As to independence, Mr. grearge "random number" simply states what had already become a living breathing reality, that the states were independent, and the states whose independence he is forced to recognize so that his merchants could do business again are listed in the treaty and LOUISIANA is not one of them. You will notice that the states listed do not have to give any consideration, that is a legal term you have to look up, for this independence. They did not buy it from him or need his permission. The Americans went over there and basically said "do you understand now?" and the treaty of paris is him saying, "yah, yah, I got it." Had Mr. "random number" not signed it and the states and britain remained in a state of war it would not have changed a thing. America was already a full member of the international community with several countries siding with us irregardless of what the elector of hanover thought. The current federal government was not created at that time but was a later creation so the article needs to be clear in what it is talking about. Is it talking about the United States as in what is currently trying to be ONE country or is it talking about the United States as in independent states as in independent countries? Now since I am on the topic of the INFOBOX I would also like to mention that it seems strange to put so much extra info under the Government section when no other country does this. Could this just be people wanting to get a mention of their guy? If so then it doesn't belong in the Info Box. I know some people really really really feel like they need to get a mention but all that needs to be there is President unless you want to list all the Governors. If we list extra info for the US then we need to go around to every country's article and do the same. This extra kind of information belongs in an article on US politics and not in the info box. -- Billiot 15:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the article title not "United States of America"? Shoreranger 03:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
American history is a very rich history. It has been through many major wars and movements. Its constitution is so strong that it has had only 28 Amendments in its entire history. Many of its Amendments are for rights not included in the Constitution. The US has worked its way to being the most powerful nation on the planet with the most high tech arsenal of weapons.-- Purplethief1 17:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The Thing that always gets left out of these things is that the American colonies were seen as a burden to the British. The colonies enjoyed low tax (the lowest in The Empire and in the rest of the civilised world) and a good quality of life, which was not the case back in Britain, for this reason when the rebelion started Britain was not willing to use excesive manpower in re-establishing order to the colonies.
Could someone point me to the screenshot of when the United States article was deleted and it said something like "Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. View 3000 deleted edits?" I remember seeing it but I don't remember where it was. -- BlastOButter42 See Hear Speak 06:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Please comment and weigh in on the nomination for deletion of North America (Americas). Thanks! Corticopia 00:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello! Before you vote, please make sure to read the article and the sources presented (click here), since the article nomination page is very confusing and misleading, and at the moment of the nomination, the article was not finished yet. It has been improved. AlexCovarrubias ( Let's talk! ) 13:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to those who commented on this prior AfD. Even though an apparent consensus supported the prior AfD in some way (and the article has been deleted), this has reared its ugly head again -- please peruse and weigh in. Thanks! Corticopia 16:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we have a nice picture for California like beaches, and people in Santa Monica or Malibu instead of high rise buildings picture placed between New York City and Chicago (which does not add much to the article in my opinion). Also something nice and quiet for Dixieland ( Louisiana) would be very welcome.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.116.234.208 ( talk) 06:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
I'm new to this article, so please forgive me if the following concern has already been vetted: the lead section's third paragraph (in the current version) says the U.S. has been the sole world superpower since 1991. I think some sources would argue that China is now or will soon be a superpower as well. Shall we change the wording?-- The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 08:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Some would argue that this means nothing today as a new type of enemy has appeared, the enemy unknown. Also the fact that the super power hasn't managed to find one man hiding in a hill after a war dedicated on finding ONE man.
I think it is self evident the US is the only Super Power in the world at the moment. China and the PLA forces are certainly on the rise but they are decades from being considered a Super Power. Remember to be a Super Power you must be able project forces globally, China is only a regional power as they can't operate much outside their borders. Their technology levels are rather low considering they have to rely on Cold War Soviet technology for the bulk of their military purchases. 69.242.205.212 09:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
The US was never really a superpower and only said to be one create the feeling we could defeat the USSR. The only war the US has won since World War 2 was the Persian Gulf War, and the was even with the help of a coalition force too.
According to you The United States of America is the only "Super Power" on earth I am american but i dont think china is relying on cold war technology. If USSR and china where to attack the United States we would be screwed.
By the way Mexico has an airforce?
"American football becoming very popular in many developed areas of the world, especially Canada and Germany, where most of the teams in NFL Europe reside." To suggest American football has an international dimension like baseball or basketball is very inaccurate. To describe it as very popular in Canada or Germany is stretching the truth.
I can see both sides to that. Obviously football is gaining ground, but it's nowhere close to baseball or basketball. I think the sentence should be left. Especially since there are now 2 games scheduled to take place outside of North America (London, and I think Tokyo). It could probably to be phrased differently, but it shouldn't be totally removed. 66.225.27.2 03:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not obvious that football is gaining ground, other than a few high profile events which are not unprecedented. It has no grass roots presence overseas unlike baseball and basketball. An article about the worlds leading democracy does not need POV speculation. 09:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggest changing the political status of the country to one of Dictatorship.
Dictionary.com defines a dictator as "a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.". With todays news about the US House vote to pull-out of war, and Pres. Bush vetoing it.... doesn't that mean he is now a dictator?
The chief justice doesn't have any real power, but seeing that the VP is also there, it might be a good thing to show the three branches of government in the US. 69.12.143.197 07:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that would make much sense. The VP and Speaker are there because they are the next 2 directly in line for the presidency and thus are extremely important. 66.225.27.2 03:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I have recently re-written the economy section. Making it more neutral, 4Kb shorter, yet more informative. While I am fond of the Wall Steet picture, I could really use the space for a pie-chart explaining economic stratification in the US. So, I have taken the liberty to add my pie chart and rm Wall Street. If you have any suggestion or feel really stronly about having the Wall Street Pic in there-let me know. Signature brendel 17:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The color red is not a neutral color for a country's map in my opinion. Red has a strong connotation of an "enemy country" in the US/Allies map to depict the Soviet Union and its allies during the cold war. SSZ 01:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we perhaps sprinkle flowers around the map, and add a little baby panda bear, to make it even sweeter and unthreatening? -- Golbez 05:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Who took out mention of the US and it's contributions to the Internet? I wouldn't think this is a minor detail since, you know, we're on the Internet right now.-- Rotten 15:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
"A recent BBC poll, interviewing 28,000 individuals in 27 counties, found that 51% of respondents saw the US as having a mostly negative effect on global affairs."
What's the point of that line being included in the article? Ryratt 19:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This artical contradicts every other page on the size of the united states in comparason to Canada and should probably be changed accordingly —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.38.178.254 ( talk) 22:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
Since when is the official name of the U.S. "The Federation of the United States of America?"
Isn't this an urban myth? As far as I know Britain offered representation several times but Ben Franklin (who wanted to accept it) was ordered to refuse because it would have led to less support for independance. Wayne 02:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC) who cares america kicks ass!!!!
This is wrong: "The long-term trend for wages of middle-income Americans has largely been stagnant since the 1970s and fallen for low-income earners, despite substantial gains in hourly labor productivity." The source given is a radio interview from NPR. I know that real wages (including counting job benefits like health insurance as part of income) have been increasing since the 1970's. I know they've increased every year since 1996, because I've seen the data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The problem is I don't know where to find the data. Anyone know where to find it? I mean official, direct, data, not a radio interview, and not an article from the New York Times or some other untrustworthy rag like that. This is an egregious error that needs to be corrected. (Note that the data should include employment benefits. Just looking at take-home pay does not give the whole picture). BillyBoom 07:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Rjensen 15:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | "While most income gains in the US have gone mostly to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of the two-earner household have boosted the nation's standard of living. | ” |
Benifits can be mentioned in it's own section? To include benifits in wage statistics is POV for several reasons. The benifits of those that do get them gives a large bias to statistics giving the appearance everyone is better off rather than only a small proportion of the population which is deceptive. ie:There are 7.5 million on minimum wage with few if any benifits that have a real purchasing power 30% lower than 30 years ago.
The the average real wage for all production and nonsupervisory workers in the private sector is 14% lower than 30 years ago but including benifits is 5% higher (average of all workers). This looks good but 20% of these workers receive 80% of the benifits so you can see how this makes the data inaccurate.
Also companies in the US have exceptionally low taxes compared to the rest of the world. For example in my country you do not get any benifits from employers so they (and the workers) pay much higher taxes. The government provides our benifits which even the homeless receive (need a heart transplant? It's free, want a pension but never worked? No problem). Statistics always compare our income to Americas without taking benifits into consideration and I'm sure other countries do it the same way.
I think Brendans sentence is good if added to the original rather than replacing it. Wayne 10:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
“ | While the bulk of income gains have gone to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of two-earner households have increased the nation's standard of living. | ” |
Bill, I'm not going to argue about w/ you here whether or not income inequality is rising- we will never agree or convince each other but most any college-level economics or sociology book as well as the US government agree that there is grave income inequality (look at the gini index). The 20% comes straight from the CIA factbook-if you disagree, then call the government ;-) That's sourced information which will appear in this article. Second, "The higher income people work longer hours than lower income people. That's why most of the income gains go to them."- that's far to great a simiplification. Some earn more than others beucase some have higher educational attainment (MDs have the highest $ of any profession- ca. 2/3 of PhDs are among the top 15% of earners.), are the children of wealthy parents (trust-fund babies and those who get a job becuase their dad runs the company), and yes hard working professionals in the upper middle class do often work more than others. However, the biggest inequality is not between the top 20% and the bottom 80%-it is the top 0.1% who are pulling far ahead of those hard working attorneys and doctors- no they don't work harder-their portfolio does (Men may also earn more than women, even they don't work harder). But that is a different story.
The following things will be mentioned:
Again, these statement combined into one sentence or small paragraph give a fair balance, are sourced and need to be included. Regards, Signature brendel 22:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought they were a good idea to have in the infobox.. why remove them? -- drumguy8800 C T 03:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The data on inequality in a nutshell: % of income received by highest 5% of families
Meaning: very little change 1945-2002. Heavy declines before then especiall in ww2. Source: Historical Statistics G36, G340; St Abstract 2005 p 447
“ | The Gini
index for households indicates that there has been growing income inequality over the past quarter-century. -US Census Bureau |
” |
“ | "The wage distribution
has become considerably more unequal with more highly skilled, trained, and educated workers at the top experiencing real wage gains and those at the bottom real wage losses. One factor is the shift in employment from those goodsproducing industries that have disproportionately provided" -US Census Bureau |
” |
“ | "In sum, when money income
is examined, each of these indicators shows increasing income inequality over the 1968 to 1994 period." -US Census Bureau |
” |
Wiki articles have to based on solid scholarship, of which there is plenty on inequality. Please drop the speculation and try quoting some reliable sources, that is serious economists. The problem of using raw data is the problem of OR -- that is it's too easy for editorts to do their own reinterpretation. That is not allowed in Wiki. Try reading Yellin: Janet L. Yellen, President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco November 6, 2006, "Economic Inequality in the United States" online at [6] Rjensen 00:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
To state my case, here are several quotes (some of which I have used during this discussion) that support the notion that income inequality is rising.
"When we look at data on the distribution of real wages, which constitute the bulk of compensation, we find striking evidence of increasing inequality" [7] -Ms. Yellen, CEO SF Federal Reserve
"we distinguished two periods: the Age of Shared Prosperity (1946-1975) and the Age of Growing Inequality (since 1975)... the general pattern is unmistakable in the data on wealth, income, earnings poverty..." (p. 291)- Dennis Gilbert, sociologist, Cornell University
""In sum, when money income is examined, each of these indicators shows increasing income inequality over the 1968 to 1994 period." -US Census Bureau
"The wage distribution has become considerably more unequal with more highly skilled, trained, and educated workers at the top experiencing real wage gains and those at the bottom real wage losses. One factor is the shift in employment from those goodsproducing industries that have disproportionately provided"- US Census Bureau
"The Gini index for households indicates that there has been growing income inequality over the past quarter-century. -US Census Bureau"- US Census Bureau
"The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households." -CIA factbook
"If you go back to 1979, prior to the period when the growth in inequality really took off in the United States, the top 5 percent on average had 11 times the average income of the bottom 20 percent. If you fast forward to the year 2000, the most recent economic peak, you find that that ratio increased to 19 times. So over the course of those two decades, the gap between the wealthiest and the lowest income families grew from 11 times to 19 times." -Jared Bernstein, co-director of research at the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, D.C., co-author of The State of Working America 2002/2003
I have provided these quotes for those coming here, via RfC and will not check this page again until 12 hours have elapsed and some new editors have had the chance to look at the issue. Regards, Signature brendel 01:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I have tried to add a paragraph stating that income inequality in the US has been rising over the past 30 years with most income gains going to the upper 20% since 1975. This statement is supported by the US entry in the CIA factbook and several US Census Bureau reports such as [8] as well as independent think-tank reports such as this. Furthermore, I have two college-level textbooks (Dennis Gilbert, The American Class Structure, Cornell University Press, 2002 and William Thompson & Joseph Hickey, Society in Focus, Pearson, 2005) supporting the statement that income inequality in the US is rising. Rjensen and BillyBoom, however, have argued that income inequality isn't rising and accused me of conduction OR and the discussion has stalled. Signature brendel 00:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an encyclopaedic artical not a blog so we need to provide the maximum amount of cited information using the minimum number of words. Brendels suggestion does that and complies with NPOV. BillBooms suggestion while factually correct (as is Brendels) removes much relevant information of interest to readers by masking it with a generalisation. This is POV. The fact that reliable sources that are seen by many/most to be conservative also agree with Brendel should be given weight. Wayne 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brendel's proposed addition violates WP:NPOV. Add one sentence saying "Economists disagree whether income inequality in the US is growing over time" and cite to the EPI and a contrary rebuttal of Billy Boom's choice. Perhaps add a second sentence citing one of the many economists who note that income inequality is a misleading measure, because it reflects immigration at the low end of the wage scale, while income has gone up relatively uniformly for the people who were in the country all thirty years (especially if one accounts for inter-quartile movement--I was in the bottom quintile 15 years ago, for example). One or two sentences in the socio-economic section are all that's needed. -- THF 21:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The term "income inequality" is actually an important concept in economics. I can't remember the figures offhand but there is an optimum range of inequality required for a healthy economy. If the income difference between rich and poor gets too large (or too small) the economy suffers. Therefor I suggest the word be kept as it is NPOV due to it's use in this field. We even have President Bush saying this during his Wall Street address on January 31 "The fact is that income inequality is real, it's been rising for more than 25 years."
According to the Congressional Budget Office, the wealthiest 20 percent of households accounted for 45.4 percent of total U.S. income in 1979, but claimed 53.5 percent in 2004. Households in the bottom fifth dropped from 5.8 to 4.1 percent over the same period. Economists are in agreement that inequality increases as GDP rises but the gains must be eventually passed down (lowering inequality) or the bottom drops out. This is why too much inequality is bad. Wayne 03:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is mainly for those who are not sure exactly what the RfC is about. Haemo may have overlooked the original discussion and the RfC is getting rather long lol.
This is the sentence in dispute:
"The long-term trend for wages of middle-income Americans has largely been stagnant since the 1970s and fallen for low-income earners, despite substantial gains in hourly labor productivity. While most income gains in the US have gone mostly to the upper 20%, technological progress, increased worker benefits, and the emergence of the two-earner household have boosted the nation's standard of living."
Several editors want to delete any reference to income inequality (or implied inequality) and want mention of income only if it includes benifits. The term income inequality is not mentioned although i feel it should be somewhere and that paragraph could be tidied a little. There is no inference in that paragraph that the economy is either good or bad. Wayne 15:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
In the second sentence of the article: "Forty-eight contiguous states lie in central North America between the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, *bound* on land by Canada to the north", the word "bound" should be "bounded". (It would be "bound" if Canada "binds" the US to the north, but it doesn't, it "bounds" it...) 144.254.45.145 17:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
america is a biparty dictatoship, not a liberal democracy. it may not be catagorised as one since it is not· Lygophile has spoken 16:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Hehehe. I doubt Lygophile is attacking anyone because he is sort of on the right track. America is not a liberal democracy purely because there is no liberal (left leaning) political party. As for dictorship.... that can be a concept as well as a reality. Several years ago Prime Minister Howard was being questioned about pushing through legislation that the public did not want and he replied that Australian politics was not really a democracy but a benevolent dictatorship so he could do it. We can't elect our Prime minister so technically he is right but we would never call it that because we have democratic freedoms. America through the Presidential use of signing statements may technically be a biparty dictatorship (check the dictionary definition) but the freedoms outweigh the restrictions of that system so it can't be called that. Wayne 17:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I can tell you right now; whatever your delusions are, if the term dictatorship is ever put up on this page in reference to America you're gonna get so much shit raining down that it's not even gonna be funny. And dude, really, America is not a dictatorship. If it was, then it would be ruled solely by one person. That's it. Now there's something like 530 members in Congress, 9 Supreme Court Justices, and one President (who has loads of advisers) and that's only at the Federal level. America is not a dictatorship; America fought to be free from dictatorship. I have no delusions about understanding the Dutch government, so I can't comment on that, but I understand the American government, and I can tell you it's a democratic republic/liberal democracy, however you please to say it. I suggest you read the Constitution. Dooms Day349 20:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Everyone, please stop the personal attacks, and get back to discussing the categorization. Although I'm not an expert on political theory, my understanding is that the most important aspects of a liberal democracy are the protection of civil liberties and the imposed legality of public decisions made by elected officials. I think that America satisfies both of these criteria through institutions like the Bill of Rights and the system of checks and balances, respectively. The lack of political pluralism doesn't necessarily preclude America from being considered a liberal democracy. Calling it a biparty dictatorship is too extreme, since no one person or body has enough power to unilaterally make decisions, and all elected officials are still subject to the law (even if they're sometimes charged with offenses long after the fact.) -- Confiteordeo 13:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)