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It should be noted that the vast majority of Scottish Unionists, being electorally the majority of the population of Scotland, have nothing to do with the Conservative Party or the Orange Order. Most Unionists would vote for one of the Labour/Lib-Dem coalition partners in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.
The genesis of an article is here. But a much clearer definition of terms is required. 1) Scottish unionism i.e. commitment to Scotland remaining in the union (which is, debatably, the majority position of Scots including many Roman Catholics), cannot and should not be compared to Orangism. Most 'unionists' in Scotland would abhore sectarianism. The Tories, historically, have been known as the 'unionist party', but in fact Labour and the Lib-Dems are also 'unionist' parties in Scottish terms. The Tory 'unionist' tag has undergone changes - I think, and I can't be sure, that it originated in 19th Century over opposion to Irish home rule, but that is not what it is generally taken to mean today.
Unionism is a very slippery term in Scotland - and because of its use in Northern Ireland, a careful discussion is needed. This article needs re-written with a lot more care. Perhaps starting with a disambiguation of the term in a scottish context. -- Doc (?) 23:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This is really difficult. As it stands, the article is awful. It gives the false impression that the Scottish situation bears similarities to that in NI. Obviously there are many people, quite probably a majority, in Scotland who want to remain in the UK, and it would theoretically be possible to call them unionists. But the word is not normally heard in Scotland. If this article has a purpose, I think it would be to talk about the political opposition to the independence movement, that is to say the reasons why the Labour and Conservative parties share a consensus on maintaining the union. However, since this is in no sense a unified movement, it would be better to move this whole discussion to an article on the independence debate, giving both sides. -- Doric Loon 16:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Scouting round a bit, I see there is an article on Scottish independence. I propose we make this article into a redirect, deleting the entire text, and expand the independence article with a new section about opposition to independence.-- Doric Loon 16:23, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Good stuff, Doc G. Since there seems only to be the two of us here, I think we can go ahead if we are agreed. I have just made some changes to the Scottish independence article, which I hope are an improvement, though it is still rather rambling and disorganised. In particular, I have beefed up the section on "criticisms" (which I have renamed "opposition to independence"), giving a statement of the pro-union case. (Somehow I got logged out as I did it, so those changes are anonymous, but they are mine!) These articles, I note, are all strongly pro-independence and need a strong NPOV injection. Please look at this and see what you think. Anyway, I think we now have the basis of an article which gives two sides of a debate. If you agree, we can make this one a redirect right away. -- Doric Loon 16:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree, guys. I know plenty of patriotic Scots who support the Union and are therefore "unionists", I suppose. Most of them feel, rightly or wrongly, that Scotland's best interests are served by remaining part of the UK. Going by the voting figures about two thirds of the population fall into that category but very few of them are sectarian, Loyalist, or members of an Orange Lodge. This article as it stands gives a completely misleading impression, so by all means, go ahead and fix it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I have re-applied the 'totally disputed' tag. Although the article has certainly improved in parts - the confusion of political commitment to the UK with sectarianism and Irish unionism still remains. And the Rangers stuff is wrong - whilst sectarianism certainly is a motive for many Rangers (and Celtic fans) - and while this has often connections with Irish sectarianism and politics - not all supporters of Rangers adhere to this (as implied) - as not all Celtic supporters are RC's. Further, the article implies that Rangersfans are 'unionists' is there any evidence to support the idea that support for independence is markedly lower among Rangers fans than any other cross-section of the Scottish community (perhaps there is - but I don't know of it). (Hey, it might even be possible to be a sectarian bigot - and still vote SNP!) -- Doc (?) 23:15, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm happy now. Great NPOVing by Dave souza ( talk · contribs) and AllanHainey ( talk · contribs) - well done! (I still think the section on Sectarianism would be better as its own article.) -- Doc (?) 08:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I see two possibilities here (there may, or course, be more):
1) Fix this article - to clearly differentiate between a)unionism as a commitment to keeping Scotland in the UK, which is a political position supported by Lab, Conservative, and Lib-dem - and Scots Protestants and Roman Catholics alike. b)Unionism as a term for a small protestant subset ('loyalists'), associated with the Orange Lodge and Rangers, seen as 'anti-Catholic' - and perhaps more akin to 'Unionists' Ulster.
2) Agree that the first category is best/already discussed under Scottish independence, and the second should be discussed under a new article on Sectarianism in Scotland (or something like) - and restore the redirect on this article to Scottish Independence.
I favour the second option, as to discuss these things on one page will lead to them being misleadingly identified.-- Doc (?) 21:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Since you've suggested that I comment further, Loon, I'll add this.
Firstly I'd prefer that the content of this article was transferred to other articles (sorry, QuartierLatin1968), as per the Doc's second suggestion. The thing is that there's nothing absolutely untrue in the article as it stands (or not much at any rate). It's just that its overall description doesn't resemble the Scottish political situation that I recognise, owing to its emphasis on the fringes of Scottish unionism rather than the (rather boring) core. Maybe that's because I'm from the North-east where sectarianism has always been less of an issue and independence more of an issue than in the Central Belt, but there you are. I assume that there is a stronger unionist sentiment in the North-east than the rest of Scotland in reaction to the stronger independence sentiment but there is also a weaker sectarian sentiment. So the two are not nearly as strongly linked as the current article implies. Separating them out is the thing to do.
Secondly, I'm not very fond of votes except as a last resort. The seven days is fine though but let's just use it to invite other Scots Wikipedians to join the discussion. It should be clear at the end of that time what the consensus is. We need only vote if it's not. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If you look at the talk page, you will see that this article was redirected after discussion. You are, of course, at liberty to disagree with redirection. But please do not call such an act 'vandalism' - that is a personal attack. And please do not revert without giving reasons (or better still joining the disccussion) on the talk page. I am replacing the redirect - please don't unilaterally revert without establishing a consensus. Edit wars are born of such actions. -- Doc (?) 18:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, we've not going to agree here I suggest any further discussion should be on the talk page, where some folk are trying to reach a true consensus. -- Doc (?) 07:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, Mais Oui obviously wanted that little exchange to be more prominent. Don't know why, because he doesn't come out of it covered in glory, but be that as it may. What we need now is less personal comment and a calmer tone of discourse.
I think Derek is right when he says that sectarianism in Scotland is quite a separate issue from unease about Scottish independence - for which reason I reject the word "Unionist", which implies a conflation of the two. I know of Orange Order people who vote SNP; the Orange Order is anti-Catholic, so in Northern Ireland it is necessarily anti-Republican, but in Scotland there is no such alignment of the issues. SO, if we ARE going to keep this article (and rewrite it completely) then I would want it moved to a different heading which does not include the word "Unionist".
But being the "vandal"(!) who first attempted the redirect I still think it is the right thing to do, for all the reasons I gave the first time around. If we take out the sectarian stuff, which clearly belongs elsewhere, what is left is an attitude to the constitutional status of Scotland. You might argue that this attitude deserves an article, but the difficulty is that it does not have the structure which would make that easy. This is not a party. It is not a movement. It is not a coherent political philosophy. It is rather an amalgam of many different reasons for resisting change. I think the only sensible place to discuss that is under the heading of the change they are resisting.-- Doric Loon 13:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree with an article on unionism in general (& don't see what is wrong with an article on English unionism simply because English national identity has recently, past 300 years or so, been associated with the United Kingdom) as it could deal with the general arguments for all 4 Kingdoms remaining part of, or leaving, the union. In terms of Scotland I'd go with a seperate article dealing with the desire & opposition to Scottish Indepenance (& the same for English or Welsh independance if anyone desires to write one, or anyone has made the case for it & it should be reported). On the issue of Sectarianism (& I'm sorry if I'm being disjointed here) this is quite seperate from unionism, nationalism or the support of English or Scottish independance and should be treated as such, it is only lumped together by those who don't consider the issues sufficiently, & should be dealt with in a seperate article. I'm going to try to rewrite thi article (although it should be renamed to) but I really don't have a great deal of time (hour a day) & I'm involved in a few other projects, but I'll try to remain involved.. AllanHainey 21:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, Unionist in Scotland is another term for Tory, and is also a term used by Separatists to label those who don't take their position. The confusion in this article is that it doesn't state this clearly, and in trying to justify the label includes the Orange anti-Catholic position as well as misstating the aims of other organisations. An article is needed here to clarify this muddle, but care is needed to avoid Nationalist / Separatist propaganda and make it clear that many of the people and organisations mentioned have a solidly Scottish identity and believe in supporting Scottish interests within a British or UK framework without thinking themselves "Unionist" or, for that matter, being monarchist. Regarding the Scottish independence#Opposition to independence section, opposition to separatism might be a fairer statement of the position: I'll think about rewording that section. ... dave souza 18:44, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
That is the crux of the problem really. Unionist, in Scotland, is a highly subjective term and in many quarters seems to make people feel uncomfortable. In most parts of Scotland the association is with the conservative party and given the poll tax debacle unsuprisingly viewed negatively. In the West central belt use of the term may have uncomfortable sectarian connotations due to the Northen Irish/football associations. However nationalists freely use the term to describe those who support remaining in the Union which the groups already mentioned as being Unionist do. My opinion on the matter could be summed up fairly succinctly by saying Unionists are unionists but they don't like to be called such. Although the idea that there is a political Unionist movement is farce to say the least - there is a political ideology on which three of the main parties in the UK represented in Scotland agree but they agree on little else. To my mind both ways of looking at the article are correct in some of their assumptions. Its correct to say there is not really a unionist movement in Scotland and not many people who ascribe to Unionist views would identify as being Unionists. However many people do and just because the term carries negative connotations does not make it any less true. I would have stated that perhaps the problem is that its easier to classify the group wanting political change (in this case the nationalists) and label them as such but not the group that represents the majority (or at least has in recent history) but if that were the case why is there an article on Northen Irish Unionism? The Northen Irish Unionists are in favour of the status quo and are the majority in Northen Irish politics and despite differences in some policies and ideological stance the fact that they are Unionist is enough to "lump them all together" so why is Scotland different in this respect? Is it purely because those who are Unionist (or in support of the Union) do not wish to be identifies as such rather then Unionism or Unionists in Scotland not existing in some form? Endless psych 04:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of discussion here about the ideal article - and how this 'topic' should be adressed. But, we seem to agree that 1. unionist generally means 'one who is anti-Scottish independence/ pro-UK' 2. this article is confused/confusing. So I'd like to restore the redirect to Scottish independence for now. If an article on Scottish sectarianism is ever created (and I think someone, not me, should) then material can be taken from the edit history here. I'll wait 7 days, and then act only if there is a clean consensus. Please indicate support or opposition below:-- Doc (?) 23:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - mixing the two would confuse and not explain. BTW, is baited breath when the cat eats the cheese to lurk at the mousehole?... dave souza 00:20, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree - I'd say that anyone looking at Unionists (Scotland) is looking for something concerned with the arguments far & against continued union with the rest of the UK & this is dealt with in Scottish independance, however if any British unionists can write a good NPOV article on the subject without confusing the issue with sectarianism & the Irish issue, so far they haven't, then it can replace the redirect. AllanHainey 11:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree - Mais oui seems not to understand what Wikipedia is about. One article for Nationalists to put their propaganda, and another for "Unionists" to put theirs? I don't think so! If there were to be an article on "Unionism", it should not be written by people who are defending it as their "creed"!!! However, since there is no such thing as a unionist movement in Scotland, this is really about the pros and cons of independence, and the pros and cons of any argument belong under one heading where they can be weighed and balanced. -- Doric Loon 15:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Support - SoM 21:41, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - This article has been very much improved thanks to the attention and discussion it has enjoyed of late; it would be a shame to throw that work away. (Besides, regarding Doric Loon's comment, it's beyond question that both an article on Scottish independence and another on Scottish unionism must conform to NPOV like all Wikipedia articles.) 17:53, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
To my suprise, and due largely to Dave sousa's excellent changes, I'm now happy to keep this article. Although, I still think that a seperate article on Scottish sectarianism is justified. Would anyone have an objection to renaming this article Unionism in Scotland, as unlike N.Ireland, there is no coherent group of 'unionists' but more a political philosophy on one hand, and a cultural phenomenon on the other. No-one in Scotland would primarily identify themselves as part of a unionist community. Any views? -- Doc (?) 11:54, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Mais oui obviously has a bit of a chip on his shoulder, to the extent that he sees any attempt at balance as propaganda for the (from his perspective) other side. But I do rather resent the implication that I have a political agenda which I really don't. Unlike Mais oui, I have not declared a support for one side or the other here, and he has no business labelling my edits as "unionist spin". It is just a fact that there are many people in Scotland (quite possibly a majority of the electorate) who do not want independence but also do not want to be called unionist because they do not feel that the associations of that word fairly describe them. That is not "spin" - it is people claiming their right to define their identity themselves. And since Wikipedia must call groups within society by the terminology which those groups themselves prefer, I support Doc G's excellent renaming suggestion. -- Doric Loon 17:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I note with disappointment that User:SoM has decided to unilaterally rename and move this page, without the slightest opportunity for discussion. I repeat, if anyone wants to rename and move the page, would they please do users the courtesy of applying the Template:Move notice to the relevant page, and then allowing a decent time period (at least a week) to allow other users to make their opinions known. I further note that no-one has added the Move template yet. I am not going to do it, because I do not support such a move.-- Mais oui! 18:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
The content of this article is now much better. As for the title, it surprises me that you guys are arguing so heatedly since there is very little to choose between the two. They're both acceptable titles so why not just go with the majority preference ? The important thing is that the article has been sorted out. Kudos for that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
It does sound rather limiting only to mention the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and the SUP as Unionists. This could lead people to assume that it there is no 'unionism' within the left of politics. A number of communist parties, such as the CPGB and the CPB support a union of sorts (usually federal in nature and sometimes excluding Ireland). I also assume that, due to its leader, the RESPECT group is pro-Union, but I've never heard then actively speak on the matter. -- Anonymous
I would personally disagree with any Labour politician describing themselves as "of the left", but many still do. You can bet George Galloway will be moving in shortly on the Scottish left, after the internecine warfare in the remnants of the established (pro-independence) Scottish left: that is if he can drag himself away from London politics. -- Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.178.115 ( talk) 10:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
This image which has a mural in Belfast uses the Ulster Independence Flag and flag of Scotland. The Ulster Independence Flag represents the view of a Nothern Ireland without being part of United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland. Just guessing also using the Scottish flag the maker of this mural was dedicating it to Ulster-Scots and to the belief of Ulster Independence, so I don't see how this has anything to do with Scottish Unionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddythecelt ( talk • contribs)
Under Status of the term the sentence "the 'Unionist' in the present title of the Conservatives was added as a reference to Irish Unionism after a merger with the Liberal Unionist Party and has nothing to do with the name of the former Scottish party" appears to contradict the Unionist Party article. As I read the latter, it says that it was this very merger which formed the Unionist Party. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 00:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Not quite yet. Breadandcheese makes a valid point but I think we're talking slightly at cross purposes here as a direct consequence of the confusing and ambiguous phrasing of the quoted passage, plus possible contradiction with or confusion in the Unionist Party (Scotland) article.
I'll firstly suggest an alternative wording based on my (possibly incorrect) understanding of the facts, starting with the end of the sentence preceding the quote:
...merged with the Conservative and Unionist Party in England and Wales in 1965, adopting the latter name. This party was often known simply as the Unionists. 'Unionist' in the names of these parties is rooted in the merger of the Conservative and Liberal Unionist Parties in 1912. The union referred to therein is the 1800 Act of Union, not the Acts of Union 1707.
I wouldn't read any further if you're happy with that wording but if required, the reasoning for my suggested changes is as follows:
As I understand it, in 1912 the Conservative Party and the Liberal Unionists merged to form the Conservative and Unionist Party, and the Unionist Party article states that this is "in the United Kingdom", implying that this term had significance in Scotland (as elsewhere in the UK). The same paragraph refers to the "Scottish Unionist Party emerg(ing)" at this time but is vague as to how the two new names/entities relate. Does the term Conservative and Unionist Party really apply throughout the UK or just south of the border at this point?
To say that "'Unionist'...was added" to "the present title of the Conservatives" "as a reference to Irish Unionism" is confused on a number of counts. Unionist here refers to preservation of the union with Ireland under the terms of the 1800 Act of Union, not Irish Unionism per se. What's more, the term unionist is in the title of the new party in reference to the Liberal Unionist party itself, not as reference to one of its central doctrines in attachment to the name of the other party, the Conservatives. It would be equally incorrect to say that conservative was added to the name of the Liberal Unionists (...in reference to the innate conservatism of the Conservatives..?).
In regard to the emergence of the the Scottish Unionist Party in 1912, as laid out in the Unionist Party (Scotland) article, it would be reasonable to assume that the word Unionist appears in its title for the very same reason it appeared in the title of the Liberal Unionist Party preceding it and of the Conservative and Unionist Party which emerged concurrently. Therefore to say ""the 'Unionist' in the present title...has nothing to do with the name of the former Scottish party" is clearly wrong as they are quite specifically of the very same origin. It may be true to say that it "has nothing to do with the" 1965 merger with "the former Scottish party", but even then that may be moot or at least needs clarification. To my understanding the name Conservative and Unionist Party was not (at least generally) used in Scotland until 1965 and the merger with the entity of that name in the rest of the UK, so the use of the term Conservative and Unionist Party in Scotland could be said to indeed be a consequence of the 1965 merger. I don't actually know if that is in fact a reasonable conclusion and it's not an assumption I've made in my suggested rewording, but it's one that could be drawn from the articles. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 21:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see:
-- Mais oui! ( talk) 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
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It should be noted that the vast majority of Scottish Unionists, being electorally the majority of the population of Scotland, have nothing to do with the Conservative Party or the Orange Order. Most Unionists would vote for one of the Labour/Lib-Dem coalition partners in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.
The genesis of an article is here. But a much clearer definition of terms is required. 1) Scottish unionism i.e. commitment to Scotland remaining in the union (which is, debatably, the majority position of Scots including many Roman Catholics), cannot and should not be compared to Orangism. Most 'unionists' in Scotland would abhore sectarianism. The Tories, historically, have been known as the 'unionist party', but in fact Labour and the Lib-Dems are also 'unionist' parties in Scottish terms. The Tory 'unionist' tag has undergone changes - I think, and I can't be sure, that it originated in 19th Century over opposion to Irish home rule, but that is not what it is generally taken to mean today.
Unionism is a very slippery term in Scotland - and because of its use in Northern Ireland, a careful discussion is needed. This article needs re-written with a lot more care. Perhaps starting with a disambiguation of the term in a scottish context. -- Doc (?) 23:02, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
This is really difficult. As it stands, the article is awful. It gives the false impression that the Scottish situation bears similarities to that in NI. Obviously there are many people, quite probably a majority, in Scotland who want to remain in the UK, and it would theoretically be possible to call them unionists. But the word is not normally heard in Scotland. If this article has a purpose, I think it would be to talk about the political opposition to the independence movement, that is to say the reasons why the Labour and Conservative parties share a consensus on maintaining the union. However, since this is in no sense a unified movement, it would be better to move this whole discussion to an article on the independence debate, giving both sides. -- Doric Loon 16:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Scouting round a bit, I see there is an article on Scottish independence. I propose we make this article into a redirect, deleting the entire text, and expand the independence article with a new section about opposition to independence.-- Doric Loon 16:23, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Good stuff, Doc G. Since there seems only to be the two of us here, I think we can go ahead if we are agreed. I have just made some changes to the Scottish independence article, which I hope are an improvement, though it is still rather rambling and disorganised. In particular, I have beefed up the section on "criticisms" (which I have renamed "opposition to independence"), giving a statement of the pro-union case. (Somehow I got logged out as I did it, so those changes are anonymous, but they are mine!) These articles, I note, are all strongly pro-independence and need a strong NPOV injection. Please look at this and see what you think. Anyway, I think we now have the basis of an article which gives two sides of a debate. If you agree, we can make this one a redirect right away. -- Doric Loon 16:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree, guys. I know plenty of patriotic Scots who support the Union and are therefore "unionists", I suppose. Most of them feel, rightly or wrongly, that Scotland's best interests are served by remaining part of the UK. Going by the voting figures about two thirds of the population fall into that category but very few of them are sectarian, Loyalist, or members of an Orange Lodge. This article as it stands gives a completely misleading impression, so by all means, go ahead and fix it. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:14, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I have re-applied the 'totally disputed' tag. Although the article has certainly improved in parts - the confusion of political commitment to the UK with sectarianism and Irish unionism still remains. And the Rangers stuff is wrong - whilst sectarianism certainly is a motive for many Rangers (and Celtic fans) - and while this has often connections with Irish sectarianism and politics - not all supporters of Rangers adhere to this (as implied) - as not all Celtic supporters are RC's. Further, the article implies that Rangersfans are 'unionists' is there any evidence to support the idea that support for independence is markedly lower among Rangers fans than any other cross-section of the Scottish community (perhaps there is - but I don't know of it). (Hey, it might even be possible to be a sectarian bigot - and still vote SNP!) -- Doc (?) 23:15, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, I'm happy now. Great NPOVing by Dave souza ( talk · contribs) and AllanHainey ( talk · contribs) - well done! (I still think the section on Sectarianism would be better as its own article.) -- Doc (?) 08:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I see two possibilities here (there may, or course, be more):
1) Fix this article - to clearly differentiate between a)unionism as a commitment to keeping Scotland in the UK, which is a political position supported by Lab, Conservative, and Lib-dem - and Scots Protestants and Roman Catholics alike. b)Unionism as a term for a small protestant subset ('loyalists'), associated with the Orange Lodge and Rangers, seen as 'anti-Catholic' - and perhaps more akin to 'Unionists' Ulster.
2) Agree that the first category is best/already discussed under Scottish independence, and the second should be discussed under a new article on Sectarianism in Scotland (or something like) - and restore the redirect on this article to Scottish Independence.
I favour the second option, as to discuss these things on one page will lead to them being misleadingly identified.-- Doc (?) 21:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Since you've suggested that I comment further, Loon, I'll add this.
Firstly I'd prefer that the content of this article was transferred to other articles (sorry, QuartierLatin1968), as per the Doc's second suggestion. The thing is that there's nothing absolutely untrue in the article as it stands (or not much at any rate). It's just that its overall description doesn't resemble the Scottish political situation that I recognise, owing to its emphasis on the fringes of Scottish unionism rather than the (rather boring) core. Maybe that's because I'm from the North-east where sectarianism has always been less of an issue and independence more of an issue than in the Central Belt, but there you are. I assume that there is a stronger unionist sentiment in the North-east than the rest of Scotland in reaction to the stronger independence sentiment but there is also a weaker sectarian sentiment. So the two are not nearly as strongly linked as the current article implies. Separating them out is the thing to do.
Secondly, I'm not very fond of votes except as a last resort. The seven days is fine though but let's just use it to invite other Scots Wikipedians to join the discussion. It should be clear at the end of that time what the consensus is. We need only vote if it's not. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:17, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
If you look at the talk page, you will see that this article was redirected after discussion. You are, of course, at liberty to disagree with redirection. But please do not call such an act 'vandalism' - that is a personal attack. And please do not revert without giving reasons (or better still joining the disccussion) on the talk page. I am replacing the redirect - please don't unilaterally revert without establishing a consensus. Edit wars are born of such actions. -- Doc (?) 18:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, we've not going to agree here I suggest any further discussion should be on the talk page, where some folk are trying to reach a true consensus. -- Doc (?) 07:48, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
OK, Mais Oui obviously wanted that little exchange to be more prominent. Don't know why, because he doesn't come out of it covered in glory, but be that as it may. What we need now is less personal comment and a calmer tone of discourse.
I think Derek is right when he says that sectarianism in Scotland is quite a separate issue from unease about Scottish independence - for which reason I reject the word "Unionist", which implies a conflation of the two. I know of Orange Order people who vote SNP; the Orange Order is anti-Catholic, so in Northern Ireland it is necessarily anti-Republican, but in Scotland there is no such alignment of the issues. SO, if we ARE going to keep this article (and rewrite it completely) then I would want it moved to a different heading which does not include the word "Unionist".
But being the "vandal"(!) who first attempted the redirect I still think it is the right thing to do, for all the reasons I gave the first time around. If we take out the sectarian stuff, which clearly belongs elsewhere, what is left is an attitude to the constitutional status of Scotland. You might argue that this attitude deserves an article, but the difficulty is that it does not have the structure which would make that easy. This is not a party. It is not a movement. It is not a coherent political philosophy. It is rather an amalgam of many different reasons for resisting change. I think the only sensible place to discuss that is under the heading of the change they are resisting.-- Doric Loon 13:43, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I would agree with an article on unionism in general (& don't see what is wrong with an article on English unionism simply because English national identity has recently, past 300 years or so, been associated with the United Kingdom) as it could deal with the general arguments for all 4 Kingdoms remaining part of, or leaving, the union. In terms of Scotland I'd go with a seperate article dealing with the desire & opposition to Scottish Indepenance (& the same for English or Welsh independance if anyone desires to write one, or anyone has made the case for it & it should be reported). On the issue of Sectarianism (& I'm sorry if I'm being disjointed here) this is quite seperate from unionism, nationalism or the support of English or Scottish independance and should be treated as such, it is only lumped together by those who don't consider the issues sufficiently, & should be dealt with in a seperate article. I'm going to try to rewrite thi article (although it should be renamed to) but I really don't have a great deal of time (hour a day) & I'm involved in a few other projects, but I'll try to remain involved.. AllanHainey 21:59, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, Unionist in Scotland is another term for Tory, and is also a term used by Separatists to label those who don't take their position. The confusion in this article is that it doesn't state this clearly, and in trying to justify the label includes the Orange anti-Catholic position as well as misstating the aims of other organisations. An article is needed here to clarify this muddle, but care is needed to avoid Nationalist / Separatist propaganda and make it clear that many of the people and organisations mentioned have a solidly Scottish identity and believe in supporting Scottish interests within a British or UK framework without thinking themselves "Unionist" or, for that matter, being monarchist. Regarding the Scottish independence#Opposition to independence section, opposition to separatism might be a fairer statement of the position: I'll think about rewording that section. ... dave souza 18:44, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
That is the crux of the problem really. Unionist, in Scotland, is a highly subjective term and in many quarters seems to make people feel uncomfortable. In most parts of Scotland the association is with the conservative party and given the poll tax debacle unsuprisingly viewed negatively. In the West central belt use of the term may have uncomfortable sectarian connotations due to the Northen Irish/football associations. However nationalists freely use the term to describe those who support remaining in the Union which the groups already mentioned as being Unionist do. My opinion on the matter could be summed up fairly succinctly by saying Unionists are unionists but they don't like to be called such. Although the idea that there is a political Unionist movement is farce to say the least - there is a political ideology on which three of the main parties in the UK represented in Scotland agree but they agree on little else. To my mind both ways of looking at the article are correct in some of their assumptions. Its correct to say there is not really a unionist movement in Scotland and not many people who ascribe to Unionist views would identify as being Unionists. However many people do and just because the term carries negative connotations does not make it any less true. I would have stated that perhaps the problem is that its easier to classify the group wanting political change (in this case the nationalists) and label them as such but not the group that represents the majority (or at least has in recent history) but if that were the case why is there an article on Northen Irish Unionism? The Northen Irish Unionists are in favour of the status quo and are the majority in Northen Irish politics and despite differences in some policies and ideological stance the fact that they are Unionist is enough to "lump them all together" so why is Scotland different in this respect? Is it purely because those who are Unionist (or in support of the Union) do not wish to be identifies as such rather then Unionism or Unionists in Scotland not existing in some form? Endless psych 04:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of discussion here about the ideal article - and how this 'topic' should be adressed. But, we seem to agree that 1. unionist generally means 'one who is anti-Scottish independence/ pro-UK' 2. this article is confused/confusing. So I'd like to restore the redirect to Scottish independence for now. If an article on Scottish sectarianism is ever created (and I think someone, not me, should) then material can be taken from the edit history here. I'll wait 7 days, and then act only if there is a clean consensus. Please indicate support or opposition below:-- Doc (?) 23:18, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - mixing the two would confuse and not explain. BTW, is baited breath when the cat eats the cheese to lurk at the mousehole?... dave souza 00:20, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree - I'd say that anyone looking at Unionists (Scotland) is looking for something concerned with the arguments far & against continued union with the rest of the UK & this is dealt with in Scottish independance, however if any British unionists can write a good NPOV article on the subject without confusing the issue with sectarianism & the Irish issue, so far they haven't, then it can replace the redirect. AllanHainey 11:58, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Agree - Mais oui seems not to understand what Wikipedia is about. One article for Nationalists to put their propaganda, and another for "Unionists" to put theirs? I don't think so! If there were to be an article on "Unionism", it should not be written by people who are defending it as their "creed"!!! However, since there is no such thing as a unionist movement in Scotland, this is really about the pros and cons of independence, and the pros and cons of any argument belong under one heading where they can be weighed and balanced. -- Doric Loon 15:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Support - SoM 21:41, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Oppose - This article has been very much improved thanks to the attention and discussion it has enjoyed of late; it would be a shame to throw that work away. (Besides, regarding Doric Loon's comment, it's beyond question that both an article on Scottish independence and another on Scottish unionism must conform to NPOV like all Wikipedia articles.) 17:53, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
To my suprise, and due largely to Dave sousa's excellent changes, I'm now happy to keep this article. Although, I still think that a seperate article on Scottish sectarianism is justified. Would anyone have an objection to renaming this article Unionism in Scotland, as unlike N.Ireland, there is no coherent group of 'unionists' but more a political philosophy on one hand, and a cultural phenomenon on the other. No-one in Scotland would primarily identify themselves as part of a unionist community. Any views? -- Doc (?) 11:54, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Mais oui obviously has a bit of a chip on his shoulder, to the extent that he sees any attempt at balance as propaganda for the (from his perspective) other side. But I do rather resent the implication that I have a political agenda which I really don't. Unlike Mais oui, I have not declared a support for one side or the other here, and he has no business labelling my edits as "unionist spin". It is just a fact that there are many people in Scotland (quite possibly a majority of the electorate) who do not want independence but also do not want to be called unionist because they do not feel that the associations of that word fairly describe them. That is not "spin" - it is people claiming their right to define their identity themselves. And since Wikipedia must call groups within society by the terminology which those groups themselves prefer, I support Doc G's excellent renaming suggestion. -- Doric Loon 17:10, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I note with disappointment that User:SoM has decided to unilaterally rename and move this page, without the slightest opportunity for discussion. I repeat, if anyone wants to rename and move the page, would they please do users the courtesy of applying the Template:Move notice to the relevant page, and then allowing a decent time period (at least a week) to allow other users to make their opinions known. I further note that no-one has added the Move template yet. I am not going to do it, because I do not support such a move.-- Mais oui! 18:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
The content of this article is now much better. As for the title, it surprises me that you guys are arguing so heatedly since there is very little to choose between the two. They're both acceptable titles so why not just go with the majority preference ? The important thing is that the article has been sorted out. Kudos for that. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:42, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
It does sound rather limiting only to mention the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems and the SUP as Unionists. This could lead people to assume that it there is no 'unionism' within the left of politics. A number of communist parties, such as the CPGB and the CPB support a union of sorts (usually federal in nature and sometimes excluding Ireland). I also assume that, due to its leader, the RESPECT group is pro-Union, but I've never heard then actively speak on the matter. -- Anonymous
I would personally disagree with any Labour politician describing themselves as "of the left", but many still do. You can bet George Galloway will be moving in shortly on the Scottish left, after the internecine warfare in the remnants of the established (pro-independence) Scottish left: that is if he can drag himself away from London politics. -- Anonymous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.178.115 ( talk) 10:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
This image which has a mural in Belfast uses the Ulster Independence Flag and flag of Scotland. The Ulster Independence Flag represents the view of a Nothern Ireland without being part of United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland. Just guessing also using the Scottish flag the maker of this mural was dedicating it to Ulster-Scots and to the belief of Ulster Independence, so I don't see how this has anything to do with Scottish Unionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paddythecelt ( talk • contribs)
Under Status of the term the sentence "the 'Unionist' in the present title of the Conservatives was added as a reference to Irish Unionism after a merger with the Liberal Unionist Party and has nothing to do with the name of the former Scottish party" appears to contradict the Unionist Party article. As I read the latter, it says that it was this very merger which formed the Unionist Party. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 00:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Not quite yet. Breadandcheese makes a valid point but I think we're talking slightly at cross purposes here as a direct consequence of the confusing and ambiguous phrasing of the quoted passage, plus possible contradiction with or confusion in the Unionist Party (Scotland) article.
I'll firstly suggest an alternative wording based on my (possibly incorrect) understanding of the facts, starting with the end of the sentence preceding the quote:
...merged with the Conservative and Unionist Party in England and Wales in 1965, adopting the latter name. This party was often known simply as the Unionists. 'Unionist' in the names of these parties is rooted in the merger of the Conservative and Liberal Unionist Parties in 1912. The union referred to therein is the 1800 Act of Union, not the Acts of Union 1707.
I wouldn't read any further if you're happy with that wording but if required, the reasoning for my suggested changes is as follows:
As I understand it, in 1912 the Conservative Party and the Liberal Unionists merged to form the Conservative and Unionist Party, and the Unionist Party article states that this is "in the United Kingdom", implying that this term had significance in Scotland (as elsewhere in the UK). The same paragraph refers to the "Scottish Unionist Party emerg(ing)" at this time but is vague as to how the two new names/entities relate. Does the term Conservative and Unionist Party really apply throughout the UK or just south of the border at this point?
To say that "'Unionist'...was added" to "the present title of the Conservatives" "as a reference to Irish Unionism" is confused on a number of counts. Unionist here refers to preservation of the union with Ireland under the terms of the 1800 Act of Union, not Irish Unionism per se. What's more, the term unionist is in the title of the new party in reference to the Liberal Unionist party itself, not as reference to one of its central doctrines in attachment to the name of the other party, the Conservatives. It would be equally incorrect to say that conservative was added to the name of the Liberal Unionists (...in reference to the innate conservatism of the Conservatives..?).
In regard to the emergence of the the Scottish Unionist Party in 1912, as laid out in the Unionist Party (Scotland) article, it would be reasonable to assume that the word Unionist appears in its title for the very same reason it appeared in the title of the Liberal Unionist Party preceding it and of the Conservative and Unionist Party which emerged concurrently. Therefore to say ""the 'Unionist' in the present title...has nothing to do with the name of the former Scottish party" is clearly wrong as they are quite specifically of the very same origin. It may be true to say that it "has nothing to do with the" 1965 merger with "the former Scottish party", but even then that may be moot or at least needs clarification. To my understanding the name Conservative and Unionist Party was not (at least generally) used in Scotland until 1965 and the merger with the entity of that name in the rest of the UK, so the use of the term Conservative and Unionist Party in Scotland could be said to indeed be a consequence of the 1965 merger. I don't actually know if that is in fact a reasonable conclusion and it's not an assumption I've made in my suggested rewording, but it's one that could be drawn from the articles. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 21:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see:
-- Mais oui! ( talk) 04:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
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