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This waffling paragraph seems out of place in an encyclopedia - let's say specifically who has made the claim (preferably the first person to make it) and report their words, briefly, before reporting a specific rebuttal: There is an unproven contention that incontrovertible proof probably does exist but is being withheld from the public by world governments, perhaps out of fear of widespread panic and social disruption that might result from disclosure of such information. Such allegations have been made by Ufologists as well as notable high-ranking military officers, government officials, astronauts, scientists, and other notable ETH supporters. However, similar groups of notables are equally skeptical and often dismiss such statements as conspiracy theories, maintaining that the evidence is unconvincing and that the subject in general is pseudoscience. Adhib 21:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please be patient. The core of this material will return to the main article as my edits (b) --> (d) specified above are completed. Adhib 20:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
In an article this massive, we can't indulge in six paragraphs of etymology for a different term - saucers. Should go into an etymological wiktionary. Adhib 20:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia article does not contain every fact and speculation known to man about a subject - just those which are necessary to form a coherent and comprehensive narrative treating the main facts and theories. Readability, people! Adhib 20:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
There are ample companion articles in foreign editions of the article listed in the LeftNav. No need for this duplication. Adhib 20:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Any good reason we shouldn't do likewise? Adhib 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Superfluous evidence for a case already adequately made. Adhib 20:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Straying into alien - let's stick with the article topic. Adhib 20:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not necessary for an encyclopedia article to detail every single investigation that there has ever been into a phenomenon.
Fascinating. Why not initiate separate articles to tell these stories? They are of limited interest within the general topic. Adhib 20:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Need to go easy on the lists. The explanatory paragraphs do this job better. Adhib 20:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
'Famous people who mentioned the topic once or twice' is not a great category heading for any encyclopedia article - would we do it for muons? In this article, it looks suspiciously like smuggling authority in through the back door in a rather desperate way. Adhib 21:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
All fine, but peripheral to the article subject, which must be, resolutely, UFOs. Adhib 20:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Adhib 20:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is still flabby in parts, but the worst of the excess lard is burned-off, above. I'm pausing here for an isotonic drink and to give consensus a chance to come panting up to the finish line. Back in week or two to see what y'all make of 'er. Adhib 21:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You people have got to see these tapes. Link is: UFO Videos of 2005. Warning: Some of these tapes may have language issues. Martial Law 02:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've ran into similar matter that did have language issues. Martial Law 02:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The Wiki skeptics seemingly can't stand to see one of the major conclusions of the COMETA report in this article, namely the accusation that the U.S. government is engaged in a major coverup. They also apparently don't want it included that this was indeed a high-level study, even if not officially sanctioned by the French government, though done with the blessing and cooperation of the French military strategic defense institute, IHEDN, and French space agency, CNES. Further, one the study's originators, 4-star General Norlain, had headed IHEDN, and was military advisor to the French prime minister. Norlain obviously had the ear of the French P.M. Instead of keeping this in, there is this ridiculous quibbling over whether the wording should be that only a "copy" of the report instead of just the report was sent to the French president and prime minister. What difference does it make? Did the "copy" say something different than the "original"? Other problems with the skeptic revisionist version is editorial boldfacing that COMETA said their ETH conclusion was unproven. There is also no need to quote from a Net summary of the report, while making it sound like it was a quote from the report itself. Dr Fil 15 February 2006
On 2-15-06 @ 15:34:00, the Sci-Fi Channel show aired a program called In Search Of..... this one featured alien abduction, animal and human mutilation. This show featured a report in which a US Army Sgt. was abducted by aliens ans his mutilated remains were found by another non-com( PFC to a sergeant). The same non-com had seen the UFO that picked up the now mutilated sergeant. A Jim Hickman had cited this case, his book called 5,000 Years of UFOs on the show. Had to speed input this here, since Wikipedia is a bit buggy: It has a Data Loss bug. Can this book be checked ? Martial Law 00:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The website is www.scifi.com. All pertainable info. may be found there. Martial Law 01:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The human mutilation case took place on the White Sands Missile Testing Facility/Ft. Bliss which is located in New Mexico, USA. Martial Law 01:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
SciFi was a source of a popular ufo video at the world trade centre back in 2000 i guess, that video is considered one of the most important video evidence.
I removed the following rambling prose from the preamble:
I will do likewise with any further witless opining. Adhib 19:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Adhib: I do not think it in agreement with the Wikipedia rules to delete an entry on the justification of "UNWELCOME". Maybe my preface – dedicated to the reader who wants to know some more than the explanation of "UFO" but does not necessarily want or have the time to read the whole article – is not in line with your opinion, that, for example, "the best known study was Project Blue Book" (it certainly was NOT as three INSIDERS familiar with the subject revealed) - but your feeling "unwelcome" is no REASON to delete what you do not like, is it? And it is surely by no means appropriate to carry out the deletion with such a DICTATORIAL behavior as you do as if you were the absolute owner of Wikipedia.
--
Bwilcke
23:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, but that's really enough. The article has already crept back up to 40k. We don't need chapter and verse here - if ghost rockets are a story that matters, they can have their own article. Well. will ya lookit that? They do already. Adhib 19:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright I saw this on the DISCOVERY chanell, so they would not bs us about this..But I remember them showing the viewers how in old paintings they would paint a UFO in the background....Should we include this in the article?
The top photo in this article is captioned "Amateur photograph of alleged UFO, Passoria, New Jersey, 1952". No supporting explanation, no references. So I clicked on the image for source info and info about the content. The source was given as the CIA in this article. However, that article has no mention of this except for a sub-heading "Passiforia, New Jersey, 31 July 1952". When you click on that heading it takes you to the image which appears in our UFO article!. A circular route, with no info whatsoever. Unless someone can post details/references about this image to justify its inclusion it should be removed from Wiki IMMHO. Moriori 22:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I have repeatedly deleted the Phil Plait quotes by Bubba73 because it doesn't meet even the minimal standards for an encyclopedia article. First of all, if Bubba thinks Plait is making a valid point, a lengthy quote isn't necessary. It can be summarized. It should be inserted somewhere in the article where it is actually relevant. But instead Bubba just plopped it in the article disconnected from everything else after tons of so-called "chickenfat" (and a lot of meat) was recently butchered out. This unnecessary (and nonfactual--see below) quote is classic chicken fat. The REAL reason Bubba stuck it in there is to get on a soapbox and give a skeptical _opinion_ as if it was incontestable fact, as is typical of him.
The real question, however, is whether Plait's statement in his book, that amateur astronomer never report UFOs, has any basis in fact. This is an encyclopedia people. Shouldn't the material pass some sort of minimal factual test?
Bubba argues that Plait is a professional astronomer, has a Wiki bio, and Bubba gives a definite reference, therefore the quote is OK. But that's beside the point. Again is it factual? Where did Plait get his statement? Was it perhaps based on a scientific survey?
No, it is nothing but Plait ASSERTING this as a fact without backing it with anything of substance. Plait says he once saw a flock of ducks and was momentarily confused until they got closer. Therefore, he implies, if a professional astronomer can be confused by something very prosaic, then all UFO reports could probably be similarly explained. Plait's anecdote followed by non sequitor reasoning doesn't carry much scientific weight. Then Plait adds that amateurs don't tell him about UFO sightings, therefore they almost never have them, but should be seeing them more often than the average person because of all their sky observation. This is again merely anecdotal, Plait's say-so, and worthless as evidence.
But what do REAL surveys of amateur and professional astronomers reveal? Here are the ones I know about:
None of these surveys support Plait. Plait's completely unsupported assertion/opinion doesn't belong in a Wikipedia encyclopedia article on UFOs. (It's kind of ironic, because Plait on his Bad Astronomy website also says argument by assertion is pseudoscientific, yet he is guilty of it here.)
Plait's book, also inserted by Bubba, is also a lousy choice for a UFO reference in this article. If you want an infinitely superior skeptical book about UFO misidentification, based on actual extensive research (Plait doesn't know a damn thing about UFOs), try Alan Hendry's "UFO Handbook." He studied 1300+ reports for CUFOS over a period of a year. Plait has studied 0. Dr Fil 06:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's a comment from Dr Fil that I'm moving from my talk page, in case anyone else has thoughts:
Tom Harrison Talk 18:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I messed up the nion-English links when I took the whole article to an external text editor for editing. I'll be more careful in the future. Bubba73 (talk), 18:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned that Identified Flying Objects (IFOs) may develop as a POV fork from this article, with all 'favorable' information going into one and 'unfavorable' into another. I think it's important to present the reader with a balanced factual account. I'm afraid that may be harder to do if the articles are seperate. Does anyone else have thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 02:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I am gathering stories for a project and want to know who's seen the supernatural any UFO, Ghost ect. ect. (I CAN HELP!)-- Dr. Mahogany 16:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Reason for that question is this: the Robertson Panel uses psychiatrists to "diagnose 'mental disorders' " in people who have had encounters with UFOs, aliens, are interested in these "forbidden" matters, so that these people can be ridiculed and discredited. Martial Law 03:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I was "Out West" looking for gold when the above happened. Its amazing concerning the people you meet. Martial Law 00:24, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The Robertson Panel was initiated by the CIA in 1952 or 1953 to "reduce" all interest in this matter after Washington D.C. was involved in a major UFO incident. Martial Law 00:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Now that the air is cleared, my experiences were this: While I was living in Texas, as a kid at the time, in a rural area, UFOs and aliens were landing on the property, tearing up the trees as they landed and lifted off, aliens were crawling all over the property, and as if a warning were issued, a orange sphere of light (or so it seemed at the time) flew between two LARGE oak trees, ripping them out of the ground, throwing them aside, one to the port side, the other went to the starboard side as it was hurtling back towards the sky. I do not recall any abductions @ this time. Since then, I've seen at least 30 of these things in AR,TX,AZ,NM,FL, incl. two "fleets", and have CE-1s from time to time. This has caused me to become a paranormal investigator, among other things. One of the FL. UFOs I've seen was that I've seen a light (the classic light) while I was in Panama City,FL., which is near Gulf Breeze,FL. This thing came out of a nearby bay, hovered in one spot for hours, then, like when you flip a light off, this thing done that when a civilian plane got too close to it. I've also seen a black sphere in said area, and it was hovering over a major highway during daylight hours. During the TX incident, I had to deal with trigger happy idiots. In Texas, all intruders are shot, especially in rural areas. I've had some police and military contacts that have told me about the Robertson Panel and the Brookings Report, and got pointed to Wikipedia by some people that I have dealt with. Martial Law 04:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
One other thing, I've also dealt with ghosts, all were the " Casper" type, none hostile at all. Martial Law 04:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
One of the things left imprints that were 12'x3'x18" each, in a triangular pattern that was far from each other, with what appeared to be a massive burn mark in the center of the landing site. Martial Law 08:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The only "supernatural" matter that I have dealt with are the ghosts. Martial Law 08:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I am not a Robertson Panel psychiatrist in fact i'm almost the opposite I am a personal investigator while not working. I have been interested in the unknown since a small child. My two theories, one is a sceptic's view Alien abduction happens from memory of childbirth the other is alien's are trying to colonize the Earth.(The year 2012 is the key point) But I also crave stories of the supernatural. Being that I have not encountered one myself I'm unsure. One thing for sure none of the stories I have heard can be explained easily or at all!- Dr. Mahogany 13:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
You can put the "childbirth theory" to rest, since childbirth does not explain the scoop marks, other bizarre matter associated with alien abductions, such as foreign objects the size of BBs being inserted into people via the sinuses by the aliens. According to people, such as Budd Hopkins, some people have repeated abductions by aliens and it is a multi-generational matter as well, happens to both sexes. Contact just may happen in 2012. How people will react to it, well, I discussed a possibility that is plausible. Martial Law 23:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Do you believe in the hybrid theory? and here's a weird theory Aetherius Society that I can't tell if it's a hoax-- Dr. Mahogany 16:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Given what Budd Hopkins and others have said, its possible that aliens are interbreeding with humans, maybe to adapt to this planet. Martial Law 19:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Just checked out the latter, check out Malevolent Alien Abduction Research Homepage. This says that aliens are pushing a extremely deceptive agenda and explains the hostile UFO/alien encounters. The History Channel is right now (as of 3-14-06) broadcasting UFO related material. I have yet to see a "friendly" alien. Most encounters I've had, incl. the horrific one in TX could be considered indifferent to hostile. Martial Law 19:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Watched the UFO history channel thing last night, I'm still wondering what the aliens real plan is?-- Dr. Mahogany 13:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It would be useful to have inline cititions and footnotes about, for example, "The army of Alexander the Great in 329 BC saw "two silver shields" in the sky." That way the reader has a place to go to read the account. Tom Harrison Talk 17:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This should explain the ridicule, the "Giggle Factor". Martial Law 23:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The section on Astronomers and other scientists reads like it was written from the perspective of a reverse debunker. There are a number of problems with it.
Please fix this problem in a factual and NPOV way. -- ScienceApologist 21:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is neither neutral nor supported by good citations. For example,
Clearly Wikipedia cannot reasonably say that documents prove any such thing, or that an agent posed as an FBI agent. We could say, "According to Reputable Reporter, writing in Reputable Publication [citation], the documents that he saw proved..." but we can't say that becuase there is no citation. Tom Harrison Talk 00:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't offend me ML. Amaze me, yes. Amuse me too. ):- Moriori 22:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
When people see these things, they often fire on them. I have seen case after case concerning this matter. I am in a rural area of the U.S. and these people will shoot at anything that they believe is a threat to them. Why is it that people can't comprehend the fact that people in rural areas of the US and some other nations will shoot to kill anything they consider a threat ? I've came accross many a incident report in which people have actually shot at these things, with no effect. In one incident report, the military helicopters and some civilian helicopters had to be grounded because ranchers and farmers were shooting at" Black Helicopters", strange lights, saucers and the like while a animal mutilation incident was going on. Who wants to tell a ticked off rancher that lost a $500,000 stud horse or bull that they're "full of it", or a ticked off farmer that had his farm ruined by radiation the same thing ? Everytime a UFO incident is going on, the rural people, especially the ranchers and farmers either buy new weapons and/or fix and oil their old ones, get a lot of ammo and sit up waiting for something to come by, so they'll shoot at it, and/or shoot the skeptics that will accuse them of lying, worse. Too bad I can't state any of this, due to WP:NOR and/or WP:V. One guy I ran into in AR., stated that his uncle had fired on a UFO with a .410 or a 12 guage shotgun, using deer slugs, only the ship had a "deflector shield" up, so that the ammo could'nt harm the vessel. He said you could see where the ammo had hit the shields, but not the ship. Martial Law 03:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
A good case is the Sutton UFO Incident,a.k.a., the Kelly-Hopkinsville Encounter mentioned in the list of major UFO incidents. These people spotted a UFO, then aliens and they have shot them with no effect at all, they were later ridiculed as persuant to the Robertson Panel as being drunk hillbillies, religious nuts and the like. Martial Law 03:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I do not mind people editting my work for bias. I freely admit that my prose may not be as balanced as possible, but the blatant reverting of this section was terribly eggregious, especially because verifiable criticism was removed. I reverted back, but encourage the editor who reverted my changes to edit for NPOV while keeping the content. Thanks, -- ScienceApologist 19:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean by "verifiable criticisms." I think you mean the opinions of fellow uniformed skeptics, as opposed to actual data. Hence the following soapbox comment by you:
Not only is this blatant soapbox POV writing, it's completely off-topic. This is a section on purported physical evidence, not your personal _opinion_ or Sagan's or Plait's whether there there is any evidence that UFOs represent extraterrestrial craft. This paragraph definitely goes out.
Now let's look at this paragraph:
I've tried to indicate, which you keep changing, that very few cases have been shown to be hoaxes. Studies, such as by the USAF, typically show hoaxing at a level of around 1%. If you can provide "verifiable" studies, not more debunking opinions, to show otherwise, please present it. Otherwise cut the nonsense through the indefinite wording that some very large fraction of cases are hoaxes. That's not the case. At this point, as a compromise, I'm leaving the indefinite "some of the cases are hoaxes", even though it is somewhat misleading.
The paragraph is already so watered down and vague, that it doesn't tell the reader much at all. It could be completely tossed without any loss at all. In a sense it is already pushing a skeptical POV. Cases are hoaxes or explainable, and the remaining unidentified physical cases are ambiguous and inconclusive. Certainly not all studies feel that way. Some, e.g., feel that unexplained radar contacts, particularly from multiple stations, are very powerful independent corroboration of physical reality for UFOs also sighted visually.
You have repeatedly resorted to rewording to suggest that physical evidence cases are purely the imagination of "Ufologists". There is no need to put "electromagnetic interference" in quotes, like it's some new phenomenon associated with UFO cases dreamt up by Ufologists. A number of these EM interference cases are military cases, a classic one being the jet intercept of a UFO over Tehran in 1976 where the plane's communications and weapons systems were lost, the latter just as the plane was about to launch a missile. This case shows up in previously classified CIA and DIA files. It wasn't created by "Ufologists".
The same is true of a large number of other physical evidence cases. They come from military and government investigations of various countries, a point you keep trying to deemphasize. I suggest you read some of the linked-to material in the bulleted list of physical evidence cases to maybe familiarize yourself with the actual evidence more, particularly some of the classic cases like Socorro, Belgium, Trans-en-Provence, Rendlesham, Washington D.C., and the like.
Just to keep you happy, I've thrown in an "alleged" and "purported" in my rewritten version, though there is nothing alleged or purported about the strictly military or government-investigated cases, where those civilian "Ufologists" had nothing to do with it. Dr Fil 23:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
According to this LINK, the Russians have opened a UFO School. What do you think of this development ? Dr Fil ? Anyone else ? Martial Law 19:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
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Anyone here know much about Billy Meier? The article right now is in need of balance and an attention to presentation. I do not know much about the subject and don't personally want to spend much time on it, but it is not a good representative of Wikipedia at present. I hope someone will be interested in giving it some attention. Phiwum 07:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I changed the intro to:
from:
Here is the rationale:
1) to state that a UFO is an "optical phenomenon" belies many of the proported UFOs that weren't optical.
2) "even after being thoroughly investigated" is a POV statement regarding the thoroughness of a hypothetical investigation. Who decides what a thorough investigation is? Also, which people are "qualified" to do such an investigation? Unless a citation can be given for this claim, it doesn't belong in the lead-off.
3) The movement and the temporary nature of UFOs are important to their definition. There isn't a single UFO which does not have one or both of these conditions and as such I think this is an important and defining feature.
4) To claim that UFOs "cannot be identified" is to inappropriately parse IFO and UFO which is a novel neologistic enterprise. UFOs are not "readily identifiable" but to claim that they "cannot" be identified makes it seem as though identification is outright impossible.
5) Definitions and opening sentences should be of the form "A is a B that is C" where you take the term (A), declare what the most relevant superset includes the term (B) and distinguish it from all other elements in the superset with conditions (C). With the current rewritten sentence, we do that. It was not adequately done before (since, for example, there are many optical phenomena which are unexplained which are not UFOs). I hope that we can improve on the superset (B) which is right now "object". I am not happy about saying that a UFO is necessarily an "object", but I'm not sure what to do about this. UFOs are certainly "coherent" phenomena for the most part, though there are reported "sightings" that were not coherent (E.g. "I saw bright lights"). If anyone has some suggestions for improving this, please make them.
-- ScienceApologist 18:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I recently made this project Wikipedia: Paranormal Watchers and would like some members or at least some tips to make it better Mahogany -wanna chat?
Culled from the article:
These paragraphs need to be cleaned up before they are presented in this encyclopedia. Here are the reasons:
Until these points are addressed, these paragraphs need to be removed from the article.
I should point out that survey research is a professional field. We should not be cavalier in our reporting of polls, especially when they are done by nonprofessionals and suffer shoddy design (such as those done by Sturrock or the magazine).
Thanks
-- ScienceApologist 19:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
There were a number of points that were included in the section outlining Phil Plait's assertions regarding UFOs that had to be removed for various reasons. The affected prose is reproduced below along with explanations for their culling and suggestions for what could be done to include such information in the article in a neutral fashion:
-- ScienceApologist 20:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
There is a huge amount of this article that would be better off merged into the Ufology section. (or, alternatively, Ufology article should be merged here.) As it is now there is quite a bit of duplication. I'd do it myself, but merging looks like it's going to be a huge mess. Does anyone have the time to take this task on? --- J.Smith 18:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The documentary channels have ran programming in which not only military planes have been chasing UFOs, they have shot some down, and the UFOs have also shot down some of the military planes. Martial Law 20:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :)
These two links state this matter. They are Astronauts FORBIDDEN to report UFOs and the source link sent to Jeff Rense is (link sent to Jeff Rense ) which states that Astronauts have been and are still forbidden to report UFOs, aliens. Martial Law 20:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC) :)
The newspaper doing this is the American Chronicle. since this is a two part article, two links are presented.
In a recent edit, "Despite this, it is often alleged..." is followed by, "However, proponents note that..."
Language like this inappropriately favors one side in the argument it describes. "Say" is often a simpler and better choice. Tom Harrison Talk 19:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes the presentation was "skewed", but to the skeptical side. What I wrote is hardly a "diatribe" but a legitimate counterpoint to the flagrantly POV skeptical argument. The skeptical argument presented is full of faulty reasoning, unverifiable statements, and arguments by assertion. For example, can ScienceApologist provide an actually legitimate source to the statement that "the general opinion of the mainstream scientific community is that no UFO sighting requires extraordinary explanations." I want an actual survey of scientists, not another of your made-up "facts." And to be consistent, since you demand only current surveys in another section, I similarly demand a current survey to back up this statement. To my knowledge, their are no such surveys, just assertions by skeptics that this is the prevailing opinion of scientists. Unverifiable say-so such as this should be deleted, which I rightfully did.
Here is another example of unverifiable statements, just more of your say-so:
Again, this is argument by assertion, a flagrantly POV statement, and also self-contradictory. What defines a UFO as a UFO is that it is NOT explained by any of the above. All of the cited conventional explanations have already been ruled out. That's already made clear in the first two paragraphs--most sightings have prosaic explanations such as misidentification, hoax, psychological, etc. However, those that aren't are unexplained or unidentified, i.e., UFOs. After this widely accepted argument and definition has been given, you then turn around and assert, "Yes, but the UFOs are also explainable by misidentification, hoax, psychological, etc."
This is truly amazing illogical reasoning.
Now added to this mess is the previously uncontested POV skeptical argument:
The only change I made to this was to modify the statement about eyewitness accounts being "notoriously unreliable." I toned this sweeping (and unsupported) assertion down and said they were often unreliable. But it is equally true that eyewitness accounts are often reliable, certainly reliable enough for investigators to make a determination. Truly unreliable reports and cases usually have a separate junk bin reserved for them, such as done by the French GEPAN/SEPRA scientific studies or the Battelle Memorial Institute USAF study back in the early 1950s.
What I did do is challenge these various points while leaving them intact. (It's called scientific debate, guys.) I didn't censor them, as you are doing to my points(then denying that you are doing it). It is simply NOT true that the scientific method demands that individual events be repeatable. In fact many well-recognized phenomena because of their transitory and individually nonrepeatable nature cannot be studied this way. I gave ball lighting and gamma ray bursters as examples. What is done instead is to collect multiple similar events and statistically analyze the results. Studying UFOs is no different. Likewise, eyewitness accounts, even if often individually unreliable, can be collectively studied by similar statistical methods, as is done in a number of well-recognized scientific disciplines, epidemiology being one example I gave. It is also not true that the scientific method requires hard physical evidence. Many scientific disciplines depend on indirect physical evidence augmented by theoretical argument. E.g., composition of stars is determined from spectra, not actual samples. Finally, I noted the simple fact that "Ockham's razor" is not some immutable law (as often represented by skeptics) but a rough guideline or "rule of thumb." It depends on individual judgment and cannot by itself tell us what theory is necessarily correct or whether currently well-recognized phenomena necessarily explain new, unexplained ones. If that were the case, there would never be anything new ever added to our knowledge, now would there? We would still be back in caves chipping stone tools.
Sorry to point out these actual facts. Stop the censorship and cut the disingenuous and hypocritical crap about how you trying to make the article NPOV and fully verifiable. All of the statements I challenged were transparent soap-box editorializing and none of them were verifiable. 66.117.135.19 01:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost, I am NOT stepping on anyone's toes, etc. at all.
I think this whole section should be deleted from the article, for the following reasons:
It starts out with a quote with astronomer P. Plait saying that he hasn't personally heard from any astronomers who have seen something they couldn't identify. This is obviously a non-scientific statement with no particular value. Then it goes on to name some astronomers, or users of astronomical instruments, who have reported UFOs, demonstrating that Plait's obviously meaningless observation is meaningless. Then it goes on to list... something. A random collection of studies, or alleged studies, or investigations of studies, or statements by organizations or individuals, or alleged statements my organizations or individuals, in which the consensus conclusion, or the conclusion of a minority, or the alleged conclusion of one or more persons, is that there is or may be some credence to the ET hypothesis.
Note that I'm not objecting to this section because it's too pro-ETH. I object to it because it is utterly disorganized, makes no meaningful statement, and adds a lot of worthless bulk to an already over-long article. Comments? KarlBunker 16:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah but... even if that's true (re astronomers, I don't particularly doubt it re astronauts)... A) who cares? B) what does it have to do with the article? C) What does it have to do with the edit that I propose above? KarlBunker 20:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree. A little history will clarify what happened. This section was inserted by one of the resident debunkers Bubba73. Bubba quoted Plait's statement in order to insert his own little soapbox UFO debunking commentary. I immediately deleted Plait's quote, saying it was nothing but an anecdotal opinion and also contradicted by actual UFO reports and polls of astronomers, i.e., Plait's comment was totally nonfactual and had no place in an encyclopedia article. This drew howls of protest from Bubba and others who absolutely insisted the Plait comment remain. I then proceeded to add the studies that contradicted it, including some of the astronomer sighting reports, such as Tombaugh's. As opposed to the Plait comment, this was actual factual material. Another resident debunker, "ScienceApologist", then proceeded to delete most of this material, calling it "controversial" with the self-serving and arbitrary rationalizations that the contradictory astronomer polls (showing that astronomers did indeed report UFOs) were, in his personal opinion only, flawed and too old to be valid. Again, Plait's nonfactual (as you say, "meaningless") statement remained, now largely unchallenged (the whole real point of ScienceApologist's censorship).
The parts about various official studies or individuals within those studies concluding there was something to the ETH explanation was added after the skeptics added another POV and nonfactual statement that no scientific study had ever shown any evidence that UFOs were alien spacecraft. That is simply untrue and again should have been deleted as nonfactual. But since the skeptics insist on retaining slanted material ridiculing the subject, no matter how nonfactual, the only other option is to counter it. Thus the material grows like a malignant tumor.
This, unfortunately, is one of the common problems with the Wikipedia model, particularly with highly controversial subjects like this one. Anybody can contribute, including highly biased nonexperts. One obvious solution is to chop out the initial malignancies, i.e., that the nonfactual soap-box comments of those obviously trying to push a personal agenda. Then counterarguments are not needed to balance things out. E.g., Plait's comment should never have been in there and should have immediately been deleted once the problems with it were pointed out. That seems like a no-brainer. I tried to do that, but met with a wall of opposition. So again, the only other option is to try to present factual evidence against it to balance things out.
If a section on astronomers was to remain, it would still be necessary to cite polling material and sighting reports to demonstrate that astronomers do indeed report UFOs, just like everybody else. You can't meaningfully discuss the subject of astronomers and UFOs without bringing up this material. This, however, contradicts standard skeptical dogma that astronomers never report UFOs (e.g. Plait). We would again hear the standard whine that the section is slanted to the pro-ETH side. The material would probably again be censored by guys like ScienceApologist. The whole mess would start all over again. It may be best just to delete the whole thing. Dr Fil 21:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It has often amazed me to see remarkably balanced and well-written articles in Wikipedia on controversial topics. Even when there are clearly "warring parties" on the part of editors to the article, the evidence of the conflict is only in the discussion page, not in the article itself. This article is largely an exception to that. The article consists largely of obvious instances of editors saying "oh yeah?!" "oh yeah?!" back and forth at each other. The section about astronomers is the worst example of that. This is kind of funny, because astronomers really don't have anything to do with UFOs. Astronomical instruments aren't designed for, and aren't much good at, looking at or looking for UFOs. Astronomers aren't trained in identifying flying objects or aerial phenomenon that might look like flying objects. The only justification for mentioning astronomers at all in this article is that some astronomers have done work in SETI, or have speculated about ETI, and that relates (vaguely) to the ET hypothesis of UFOs. I'm going to delete that section. If anyone objects, please state your reasons here. KarlBunker 00:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
"Alleged disinterest on the part of the scientific community is an equally unimpressive claim. Scientists are constantly competing with one another to be the first with a great discovery, and clear evidence of alien visitors would certainly rank high on the all-time list. Countless researchers woudl work evening and weekends, without pay, if they could make such a discovery. The fact that few scientists are engaged in such study reflects not a lack of interest, but a lack of evidence worthy of study."
"Of course, absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Most scientists are open to the possibility that we might someday find evidence of alien visits, and many would welcome aliens with open arms. So far, however, we have no hard evidence to support the belief that aliens are already here."
I would point out that this is from one of the most common introductory astronomy texts for non-science majors used in the country. Certainly a verifiable and useful source of information!
-- ScienceApologist 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The author is expressing a personal opinion, nothing more. Can you "verify" he said it? Sure! Is it factual? That's another matter. Where's the verification for it? Even if factual, is it really "useful information"? Not really. It doesn't say much. The same argument could be applied to SETI, e.g. Why aren't there tens of thousands of scientists working "nights and weekends" looking for radio signals from distant alien civilizations? That would also certainly be a great discovery. If you want to find out why there aren't, you would need to delve into other topics such as lack of funding and lack of expectations of quick payback. In other words, simpleminded statements of opinion knocking absence of large numbers of scientist in SETI also are not really "useful information."
When it supports your personal agenda, you debunking guys seem to endlessly confuse "verification" of the expression of an opinion with actual verification of the factual content of the opinion itself. A perfect example is the Plait quote that amateur astronomers never report UFOs. That's a personal opinion of Plait's. That Plait made the statement can be verified, but the factual accuracy of it cannot. The reason it can't be verified is because it isn't true. Every study that's ever been done on this shows it isn't true. Astronomers, both amateur and professional, do indeed report UFOs, period. You, for some reason, can't handle that, and instead chose to censor this material while leaving Plait's erroneous and truly unverifiable statement untouched.
You seem to be a little unclear what what the word "verification" really means. Dr Fil 22:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The only way that the Skeptics (in general) will believe anyone, the govt suppression protocol, such as the Robertson Panel, Project Grudge, related protocol is to be cancelled is that someone/something finds us as Ronald Reagan has stated in one of his speeches. When that happens is when the planet erupts in planetwide rebellion. See Re.:Rebellion above. I am NOT accusing,etc. anyone at all, only stating what may happen, should there be alien contact, no more, no less. Martial Law 23:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC) :)
Do you happen to have a source for that comment? Thanks, --- J.Smith 20:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I must protest the continued deletion by KarlBunker of the 1886 Scientific American Venezuelan report of physiological injury. This case has been cited for months without problem. The reasons given for suddenly deleting it continue to seem arbitrary to me. Saying the case is too old to be of value is nonsense. No scholar of any subject automatically rejects old items as being useless just because they are old. How else are you supposed to gain a historical perspective if you arbitrarily throw out everything historical? The very fact that it is old is precisely why it is valuable in order to provide context. One argument often used by skeptics is that UFO reports are all contemporary and the result of cultural and media influences. Yet here is an example of something reported that sounds exactly like a modern UFO close encounters report, including the oft-reported bright lights and humming, long before anybody ever heard of any such things. But more remarkably, to my thinking, is the reported physiological symptoms of skin burns, lesions, and hair loss that sound exactly like symptoms of radiation poisoning, most likely exposure to intense microwave radiation. Yet this is at least 50 years before anything was known about such things. How could the letter writer be so prescient as to fake all these details? This is a strong argument against the letter being some form of hoax.
The argument that Scientific American back then wasn't a respected magazine is an extremely weak one. Even if one accepts this, it's beside the poiint. The citation is perfectly valid (I've looked up the item myself at the library) and the letter stands on its own merits because of all the included details that would have been almost impossible to fake at the time. Would you automatically reject 19th century reports of sizzling meteor sounds as being worthless just because they were reported in an old newspaper instead of Science magazine?
Finally the evidence for UFOs is in examination of case reports, particularly noteworthy ones. Let the reader decide whether the cases cited are worthwhile evidence or not. Trying to eliminate references to such important cases is cutting the meat out of the article while leaving in a lot of meaningless fat that provides the reader no useful information. E.g., the paragraph at the top of the section about the evidence being hoaxes, explainable, or unidentified but ambiguous is a sweeping generalization that doesn't tell the reader anything of substance about physical evidence cases (the topic of the section) and is also repeated elsewhere in the article in various ways such as in "Explanations and Opinions" and "Identified Flying Objects." How many times is it necessary for the same point to be made? If you are concerned about unnecessary repetition and article length, why not cut that paragraph out? It adds nothing to the article that isn't already there and wouldn't be missed in the slightest. Dr Fil 20:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
That section needs to be removed from this article. It is massively redundant to the ufology article. If no one else wants to volunteer to do it, I'll do it sometime this weekend. --- J.S ( t| c) 16:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the second version is wide enough to encompass all the different possibilities, no? --- J.S ( t| c) 21:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted back to a definition similar to one used in a much earlier Wiki intro. This pointed out that there is a simple, literal definition that UFO means anything aerial that is unidentified. Furthermore, I noted, as in many definitions, that the reason the thing can't be readily identified is because there is something unusual about it, usually the shape, type of motion, or brightness. E.g., this is why the USAF in its early investigations from 1947 stated in documents that they thought the phenomenon real and deserving of further, intense study. There were various anomalous characteristics that set these observations apart from prosaic flying objects. It is also along the lines of how the USAF officially defined UFOs in their Air Force Regulation 200-2 from 1954.
Then it contrasts this with Hynek's more complex definition, preferred by scientists and other serious researchers, that "UFO" should be applied only to those instances where what is observed continues to defy identification after careful investigation by techically experienced and well-qualified investigators. In other words, those things that can eventually be readily identified are merely "noise" whereas those things that continue to defy identification are related to actual "signal" or the heart of the phenomenon. ScienceApologist previously dumped this long-included Hynek definition with the rationalization that it was "POV". In his mind, claiming that something was thoroughly investigated was POV or that those investigating were experts was POV. Although this can conceivably be a problem, it is pretty clear what is meant by the Hynek definition. A UFO isn't just something mysterious to the great unwashed and unsophisticated masses who might report such things (leaving out the fact that those reporting are often already experts), but remains mysterious and unidentified even after intense effort has been expended by well-qualified people to come up with a plausible explanation, people like teams of scientists and engineers, aviation experts, and the like.
Another minor thing added is to point out that UFO and extraterrestrial spaceship are frequently equated in popular usage. This isn't my definition or observation, but is frequently found in dictionary definitions. E.g., Wiktionary gives a 2nd definition: of "(colloquial) An alien aircraft". The Oxford Compact Dictionary defines UFO as: "a mysterious object seen in the sky for which it is claimed no orthodox scientific explanation can be found, popularly said to be a vehicle carrying extraterrestrials."
Words like "impermanence" are definitely out. Not only is it POV (suggesting nonexistence or insubstantiality just like the just-dumped POV "apparition"), it is also completely inaccurate. Words like "impermanence" have never been used to try to define UFO, for the simple reason that UFOs are no more "impermanent" than anything else that can be identified, like meteors or jet planes. In fact, when the duration of sightings was studied statistically by the Battelle Institute for the USAF back in 1952-54, they found that their UFO category tended to have somewhat longer durations than their IFO category. Saying that a defining characteristic of UFOs is "impermanence" is like saying a defining characteristic of humans is hunger.
I also dumped "motility," which is extreme vague and nondescriptive by itself. Noting that there is something unusual about the "motion" (instead of simple motility) as one of several possible unusual characteristics, better defines the characteristics and the scope of the phenomenon. "Unusual motion" covers a wide gamut of reported UFO anomalous characteristics, such as high speed, high acceleration, high maneuverability (90/180 degree turns, hairpin turns, tight circling, etc.), high rates of vertical climb or dive, hovering, zig-zagging, "falling leaf" motion, etc.
I'm still not terribly happy with the disclaimer that "most scientists" disagree (but have left the statement currently untouched). First of all, I know of no current study of scientific opinions on the subject. Furthermore, unless they have actually studied the existing data in some depth, I'm not sure how relevant such opinions are one way or the other. It's like saying, "most scientists" believe in the Big Bang," including everybody who calls themselves a "scientist", such as biologists, anthropologists, bacteriologists, M.D.'s and the like. Who cares? What counts are only the "scientists" with the necessary expertise, such as astronomers, cosmologists, physicists, etc., and who have also studied the relevant data and theories. Thus the statement that "most scientists" disagree is currently vague, unsupported, and I'm not sure particularly relevant. Its inclusion seems to be to insert a skeptical POV in the introduction using argument by authority. Perhaps it can be reworded to be more neutral or indicate that opinions among scientific experts vary widely though perhaps the majority are currently skeptical. Dr Fil 21:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The "totally disputed" tag has been on this page since the beginning of time. For a popular topic such as UFO's, one would think it would be cleared up by now. I've read through all the arguing/BS/etc. When is this going to finally be settled???? -- JOK3R 19:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
3 Research
4 Ufology - people and organizations
I'll be doing the pruning sometime tonight. Relevant info well be merged into the Ufology article, where it truly belongs (except for section 4, that will go to the list of ufologists). If anyone has any problem with this. Let me know and we can talk about it. --- J.S ( t| c) 21:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"A confidential Ministry of Defence report on Unidentified Flying Objects has concluded that there is no proof of alien life forms."
First of all, mobility and impermanence need to be in the definition. That's an important feature of UFOs.
Secondly, the appeal to authority regarding Hynek was absurd. "Dr."? Who cares? Carl Sagan was a doctor. Do we refer to him as "Dr. Carl Sagan"? No! The appellation is an appeal to authority. So is his astronomical and air force careers: totally irrelevant to the introduction. The reason he should be quoted is because he studies UFOs. That's what makes him an expert worthy of citation. His astronomical and air force background are irrelevant. -- ScienceApologist 18:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to put in a connector sentence to the third intro paragraph. I think it's verifiable and will provide a citation if necessary. -- ScienceApologist 20:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to look it up in Wikionary to no avail... perhaps it is too archaic/technical of a term? Can we find simpler wording, for simple folks like me? --- J.S ( t| c) 20:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag is still in place on the article because there is still a lot of work to be done to bring it to a neutral level and to verify information. In particular, much of the prose on modern UFO research needs to be balanced with the skeptical perspective. Until we finish this task, it is best to leave the tag in place. -- ScienceApologist 20:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Technically, a UFO is anything in the air that the government can't tell what it is, also, aliens? I find it highly improbable that earth is the ONLY planet that has life on it, but i doubt any other planets with (intellegent) life would be close enough to "pay a visit" this article is speculation, and should be deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.152.89 ( talk • contribs)
I tried to remove it because i felt guilty because he was right, and this discussion has gotten completely off track. A UFO is not necessarily a spaceship.
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This waffling paragraph seems out of place in an encyclopedia - let's say specifically who has made the claim (preferably the first person to make it) and report their words, briefly, before reporting a specific rebuttal: There is an unproven contention that incontrovertible proof probably does exist but is being withheld from the public by world governments, perhaps out of fear of widespread panic and social disruption that might result from disclosure of such information. Such allegations have been made by Ufologists as well as notable high-ranking military officers, government officials, astronauts, scientists, and other notable ETH supporters. However, similar groups of notables are equally skeptical and often dismiss such statements as conspiracy theories, maintaining that the evidence is unconvincing and that the subject in general is pseudoscience. Adhib 21:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Please be patient. The core of this material will return to the main article as my edits (b) --> (d) specified above are completed. Adhib 20:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
In an article this massive, we can't indulge in six paragraphs of etymology for a different term - saucers. Should go into an etymological wiktionary. Adhib 20:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia article does not contain every fact and speculation known to man about a subject - just those which are necessary to form a coherent and comprehensive narrative treating the main facts and theories. Readability, people! Adhib 20:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
There are ample companion articles in foreign editions of the article listed in the LeftNav. No need for this duplication. Adhib 20:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Any good reason we shouldn't do likewise? Adhib 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Superfluous evidence for a case already adequately made. Adhib 20:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Straying into alien - let's stick with the article topic. Adhib 20:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
It is not necessary for an encyclopedia article to detail every single investigation that there has ever been into a phenomenon.
Fascinating. Why not initiate separate articles to tell these stories? They are of limited interest within the general topic. Adhib 20:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Need to go easy on the lists. The explanatory paragraphs do this job better. Adhib 20:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
'Famous people who mentioned the topic once or twice' is not a great category heading for any encyclopedia article - would we do it for muons? In this article, it looks suspiciously like smuggling authority in through the back door in a rather desperate way. Adhib 21:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
All fine, but peripheral to the article subject, which must be, resolutely, UFOs. Adhib 20:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Adhib 20:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is still flabby in parts, but the worst of the excess lard is burned-off, above. I'm pausing here for an isotonic drink and to give consensus a chance to come panting up to the finish line. Back in week or two to see what y'all make of 'er. Adhib 21:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
You people have got to see these tapes. Link is: UFO Videos of 2005. Warning: Some of these tapes may have language issues. Martial Law 02:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I've ran into similar matter that did have language issues. Martial Law 02:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
The Wiki skeptics seemingly can't stand to see one of the major conclusions of the COMETA report in this article, namely the accusation that the U.S. government is engaged in a major coverup. They also apparently don't want it included that this was indeed a high-level study, even if not officially sanctioned by the French government, though done with the blessing and cooperation of the French military strategic defense institute, IHEDN, and French space agency, CNES. Further, one the study's originators, 4-star General Norlain, had headed IHEDN, and was military advisor to the French prime minister. Norlain obviously had the ear of the French P.M. Instead of keeping this in, there is this ridiculous quibbling over whether the wording should be that only a "copy" of the report instead of just the report was sent to the French president and prime minister. What difference does it make? Did the "copy" say something different than the "original"? Other problems with the skeptic revisionist version is editorial boldfacing that COMETA said their ETH conclusion was unproven. There is also no need to quote from a Net summary of the report, while making it sound like it was a quote from the report itself. Dr Fil 15 February 2006
On 2-15-06 @ 15:34:00, the Sci-Fi Channel show aired a program called In Search Of..... this one featured alien abduction, animal and human mutilation. This show featured a report in which a US Army Sgt. was abducted by aliens ans his mutilated remains were found by another non-com( PFC to a sergeant). The same non-com had seen the UFO that picked up the now mutilated sergeant. A Jim Hickman had cited this case, his book called 5,000 Years of UFOs on the show. Had to speed input this here, since Wikipedia is a bit buggy: It has a Data Loss bug. Can this book be checked ? Martial Law 00:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The website is www.scifi.com. All pertainable info. may be found there. Martial Law 01:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The human mutilation case took place on the White Sands Missile Testing Facility/Ft. Bliss which is located in New Mexico, USA. Martial Law 01:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
SciFi was a source of a popular ufo video at the world trade centre back in 2000 i guess, that video is considered one of the most important video evidence.
I removed the following rambling prose from the preamble:
I will do likewise with any further witless opining. Adhib 19:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Adhib: I do not think it in agreement with the Wikipedia rules to delete an entry on the justification of "UNWELCOME". Maybe my preface – dedicated to the reader who wants to know some more than the explanation of "UFO" but does not necessarily want or have the time to read the whole article – is not in line with your opinion, that, for example, "the best known study was Project Blue Book" (it certainly was NOT as three INSIDERS familiar with the subject revealed) - but your feeling "unwelcome" is no REASON to delete what you do not like, is it? And it is surely by no means appropriate to carry out the deletion with such a DICTATORIAL behavior as you do as if you were the absolute owner of Wikipedia.
--
Bwilcke
23:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, but that's really enough. The article has already crept back up to 40k. We don't need chapter and verse here - if ghost rockets are a story that matters, they can have their own article. Well. will ya lookit that? They do already. Adhib 19:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Alright I saw this on the DISCOVERY chanell, so they would not bs us about this..But I remember them showing the viewers how in old paintings they would paint a UFO in the background....Should we include this in the article?
The top photo in this article is captioned "Amateur photograph of alleged UFO, Passoria, New Jersey, 1952". No supporting explanation, no references. So I clicked on the image for source info and info about the content. The source was given as the CIA in this article. However, that article has no mention of this except for a sub-heading "Passiforia, New Jersey, 31 July 1952". When you click on that heading it takes you to the image which appears in our UFO article!. A circular route, with no info whatsoever. Unless someone can post details/references about this image to justify its inclusion it should be removed from Wiki IMMHO. Moriori 22:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I have repeatedly deleted the Phil Plait quotes by Bubba73 because it doesn't meet even the minimal standards for an encyclopedia article. First of all, if Bubba thinks Plait is making a valid point, a lengthy quote isn't necessary. It can be summarized. It should be inserted somewhere in the article where it is actually relevant. But instead Bubba just plopped it in the article disconnected from everything else after tons of so-called "chickenfat" (and a lot of meat) was recently butchered out. This unnecessary (and nonfactual--see below) quote is classic chicken fat. The REAL reason Bubba stuck it in there is to get on a soapbox and give a skeptical _opinion_ as if it was incontestable fact, as is typical of him.
The real question, however, is whether Plait's statement in his book, that amateur astronomer never report UFOs, has any basis in fact. This is an encyclopedia people. Shouldn't the material pass some sort of minimal factual test?
Bubba argues that Plait is a professional astronomer, has a Wiki bio, and Bubba gives a definite reference, therefore the quote is OK. But that's beside the point. Again is it factual? Where did Plait get his statement? Was it perhaps based on a scientific survey?
No, it is nothing but Plait ASSERTING this as a fact without backing it with anything of substance. Plait says he once saw a flock of ducks and was momentarily confused until they got closer. Therefore, he implies, if a professional astronomer can be confused by something very prosaic, then all UFO reports could probably be similarly explained. Plait's anecdote followed by non sequitor reasoning doesn't carry much scientific weight. Then Plait adds that amateurs don't tell him about UFO sightings, therefore they almost never have them, but should be seeing them more often than the average person because of all their sky observation. This is again merely anecdotal, Plait's say-so, and worthless as evidence.
But what do REAL surveys of amateur and professional astronomers reveal? Here are the ones I know about:
None of these surveys support Plait. Plait's completely unsupported assertion/opinion doesn't belong in a Wikipedia encyclopedia article on UFOs. (It's kind of ironic, because Plait on his Bad Astronomy website also says argument by assertion is pseudoscientific, yet he is guilty of it here.)
Plait's book, also inserted by Bubba, is also a lousy choice for a UFO reference in this article. If you want an infinitely superior skeptical book about UFO misidentification, based on actual extensive research (Plait doesn't know a damn thing about UFOs), try Alan Hendry's "UFO Handbook." He studied 1300+ reports for CUFOS over a period of a year. Plait has studied 0. Dr Fil 06:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Here's a comment from Dr Fil that I'm moving from my talk page, in case anyone else has thoughts:
Tom Harrison Talk 18:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I messed up the nion-English links when I took the whole article to an external text editor for editing. I'll be more careful in the future. Bubba73 (talk), 18:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned that Identified Flying Objects (IFOs) may develop as a POV fork from this article, with all 'favorable' information going into one and 'unfavorable' into another. I think it's important to present the reader with a balanced factual account. I'm afraid that may be harder to do if the articles are seperate. Does anyone else have thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 02:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I am gathering stories for a project and want to know who's seen the supernatural any UFO, Ghost ect. ect. (I CAN HELP!)-- Dr. Mahogany 16:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Reason for that question is this: the Robertson Panel uses psychiatrists to "diagnose 'mental disorders' " in people who have had encounters with UFOs, aliens, are interested in these "forbidden" matters, so that these people can be ridiculed and discredited. Martial Law 03:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I was "Out West" looking for gold when the above happened. Its amazing concerning the people you meet. Martial Law 00:24, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The Robertson Panel was initiated by the CIA in 1952 or 1953 to "reduce" all interest in this matter after Washington D.C. was involved in a major UFO incident. Martial Law 00:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Now that the air is cleared, my experiences were this: While I was living in Texas, as a kid at the time, in a rural area, UFOs and aliens were landing on the property, tearing up the trees as they landed and lifted off, aliens were crawling all over the property, and as if a warning were issued, a orange sphere of light (or so it seemed at the time) flew between two LARGE oak trees, ripping them out of the ground, throwing them aside, one to the port side, the other went to the starboard side as it was hurtling back towards the sky. I do not recall any abductions @ this time. Since then, I've seen at least 30 of these things in AR,TX,AZ,NM,FL, incl. two "fleets", and have CE-1s from time to time. This has caused me to become a paranormal investigator, among other things. One of the FL. UFOs I've seen was that I've seen a light (the classic light) while I was in Panama City,FL., which is near Gulf Breeze,FL. This thing came out of a nearby bay, hovered in one spot for hours, then, like when you flip a light off, this thing done that when a civilian plane got too close to it. I've also seen a black sphere in said area, and it was hovering over a major highway during daylight hours. During the TX incident, I had to deal with trigger happy idiots. In Texas, all intruders are shot, especially in rural areas. I've had some police and military contacts that have told me about the Robertson Panel and the Brookings Report, and got pointed to Wikipedia by some people that I have dealt with. Martial Law 04:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
One other thing, I've also dealt with ghosts, all were the " Casper" type, none hostile at all. Martial Law 04:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
One of the things left imprints that were 12'x3'x18" each, in a triangular pattern that was far from each other, with what appeared to be a massive burn mark in the center of the landing site. Martial Law 08:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The only "supernatural" matter that I have dealt with are the ghosts. Martial Law 08:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I am not a Robertson Panel psychiatrist in fact i'm almost the opposite I am a personal investigator while not working. I have been interested in the unknown since a small child. My two theories, one is a sceptic's view Alien abduction happens from memory of childbirth the other is alien's are trying to colonize the Earth.(The year 2012 is the key point) But I also crave stories of the supernatural. Being that I have not encountered one myself I'm unsure. One thing for sure none of the stories I have heard can be explained easily or at all!- Dr. Mahogany 13:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
You can put the "childbirth theory" to rest, since childbirth does not explain the scoop marks, other bizarre matter associated with alien abductions, such as foreign objects the size of BBs being inserted into people via the sinuses by the aliens. According to people, such as Budd Hopkins, some people have repeated abductions by aliens and it is a multi-generational matter as well, happens to both sexes. Contact just may happen in 2012. How people will react to it, well, I discussed a possibility that is plausible. Martial Law 23:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Do you believe in the hybrid theory? and here's a weird theory Aetherius Society that I can't tell if it's a hoax-- Dr. Mahogany 16:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Given what Budd Hopkins and others have said, its possible that aliens are interbreeding with humans, maybe to adapt to this planet. Martial Law 19:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Just checked out the latter, check out Malevolent Alien Abduction Research Homepage. This says that aliens are pushing a extremely deceptive agenda and explains the hostile UFO/alien encounters. The History Channel is right now (as of 3-14-06) broadcasting UFO related material. I have yet to see a "friendly" alien. Most encounters I've had, incl. the horrific one in TX could be considered indifferent to hostile. Martial Law 19:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC) :)
Watched the UFO history channel thing last night, I'm still wondering what the aliens real plan is?-- Dr. Mahogany 13:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
It would be useful to have inline cititions and footnotes about, for example, "The army of Alexander the Great in 329 BC saw "two silver shields" in the sky." That way the reader has a place to go to read the account. Tom Harrison Talk 17:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
This should explain the ridicule, the "Giggle Factor". Martial Law 23:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :)
The section on Astronomers and other scientists reads like it was written from the perspective of a reverse debunker. There are a number of problems with it.
Please fix this problem in a factual and NPOV way. -- ScienceApologist 21:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This article is neither neutral nor supported by good citations. For example,
Clearly Wikipedia cannot reasonably say that documents prove any such thing, or that an agent posed as an FBI agent. We could say, "According to Reputable Reporter, writing in Reputable Publication [citation], the documents that he saw proved..." but we can't say that becuase there is no citation. Tom Harrison Talk 00:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You don't offend me ML. Amaze me, yes. Amuse me too. ):- Moriori 22:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
When people see these things, they often fire on them. I have seen case after case concerning this matter. I am in a rural area of the U.S. and these people will shoot at anything that they believe is a threat to them. Why is it that people can't comprehend the fact that people in rural areas of the US and some other nations will shoot to kill anything they consider a threat ? I've came accross many a incident report in which people have actually shot at these things, with no effect. In one incident report, the military helicopters and some civilian helicopters had to be grounded because ranchers and farmers were shooting at" Black Helicopters", strange lights, saucers and the like while a animal mutilation incident was going on. Who wants to tell a ticked off rancher that lost a $500,000 stud horse or bull that they're "full of it", or a ticked off farmer that had his farm ruined by radiation the same thing ? Everytime a UFO incident is going on, the rural people, especially the ranchers and farmers either buy new weapons and/or fix and oil their old ones, get a lot of ammo and sit up waiting for something to come by, so they'll shoot at it, and/or shoot the skeptics that will accuse them of lying, worse. Too bad I can't state any of this, due to WP:NOR and/or WP:V. One guy I ran into in AR., stated that his uncle had fired on a UFO with a .410 or a 12 guage shotgun, using deer slugs, only the ship had a "deflector shield" up, so that the ammo could'nt harm the vessel. He said you could see where the ammo had hit the shields, but not the ship. Martial Law 03:03, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
A good case is the Sutton UFO Incident,a.k.a., the Kelly-Hopkinsville Encounter mentioned in the list of major UFO incidents. These people spotted a UFO, then aliens and they have shot them with no effect at all, they were later ridiculed as persuant to the Robertson Panel as being drunk hillbillies, religious nuts and the like. Martial Law 03:46, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
I do not mind people editting my work for bias. I freely admit that my prose may not be as balanced as possible, but the blatant reverting of this section was terribly eggregious, especially because verifiable criticism was removed. I reverted back, but encourage the editor who reverted my changes to edit for NPOV while keeping the content. Thanks, -- ScienceApologist 19:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean by "verifiable criticisms." I think you mean the opinions of fellow uniformed skeptics, as opposed to actual data. Hence the following soapbox comment by you:
Not only is this blatant soapbox POV writing, it's completely off-topic. This is a section on purported physical evidence, not your personal _opinion_ or Sagan's or Plait's whether there there is any evidence that UFOs represent extraterrestrial craft. This paragraph definitely goes out.
Now let's look at this paragraph:
I've tried to indicate, which you keep changing, that very few cases have been shown to be hoaxes. Studies, such as by the USAF, typically show hoaxing at a level of around 1%. If you can provide "verifiable" studies, not more debunking opinions, to show otherwise, please present it. Otherwise cut the nonsense through the indefinite wording that some very large fraction of cases are hoaxes. That's not the case. At this point, as a compromise, I'm leaving the indefinite "some of the cases are hoaxes", even though it is somewhat misleading.
The paragraph is already so watered down and vague, that it doesn't tell the reader much at all. It could be completely tossed without any loss at all. In a sense it is already pushing a skeptical POV. Cases are hoaxes or explainable, and the remaining unidentified physical cases are ambiguous and inconclusive. Certainly not all studies feel that way. Some, e.g., feel that unexplained radar contacts, particularly from multiple stations, are very powerful independent corroboration of physical reality for UFOs also sighted visually.
You have repeatedly resorted to rewording to suggest that physical evidence cases are purely the imagination of "Ufologists". There is no need to put "electromagnetic interference" in quotes, like it's some new phenomenon associated with UFO cases dreamt up by Ufologists. A number of these EM interference cases are military cases, a classic one being the jet intercept of a UFO over Tehran in 1976 where the plane's communications and weapons systems were lost, the latter just as the plane was about to launch a missile. This case shows up in previously classified CIA and DIA files. It wasn't created by "Ufologists".
The same is true of a large number of other physical evidence cases. They come from military and government investigations of various countries, a point you keep trying to deemphasize. I suggest you read some of the linked-to material in the bulleted list of physical evidence cases to maybe familiarize yourself with the actual evidence more, particularly some of the classic cases like Socorro, Belgium, Trans-en-Provence, Rendlesham, Washington D.C., and the like.
Just to keep you happy, I've thrown in an "alleged" and "purported" in my rewritten version, though there is nothing alleged or purported about the strictly military or government-investigated cases, where those civilian "Ufologists" had nothing to do with it. Dr Fil 23:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
According to this LINK, the Russians have opened a UFO School. What do you think of this development ? Dr Fil ? Anyone else ? Martial Law 19:09, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :)
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Anyone here know much about Billy Meier? The article right now is in need of balance and an attention to presentation. I do not know much about the subject and don't personally want to spend much time on it, but it is not a good representative of Wikipedia at present. I hope someone will be interested in giving it some attention. Phiwum 07:54, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I changed the intro to:
from:
Here is the rationale:
1) to state that a UFO is an "optical phenomenon" belies many of the proported UFOs that weren't optical.
2) "even after being thoroughly investigated" is a POV statement regarding the thoroughness of a hypothetical investigation. Who decides what a thorough investigation is? Also, which people are "qualified" to do such an investigation? Unless a citation can be given for this claim, it doesn't belong in the lead-off.
3) The movement and the temporary nature of UFOs are important to their definition. There isn't a single UFO which does not have one or both of these conditions and as such I think this is an important and defining feature.
4) To claim that UFOs "cannot be identified" is to inappropriately parse IFO and UFO which is a novel neologistic enterprise. UFOs are not "readily identifiable" but to claim that they "cannot" be identified makes it seem as though identification is outright impossible.
5) Definitions and opening sentences should be of the form "A is a B that is C" where you take the term (A), declare what the most relevant superset includes the term (B) and distinguish it from all other elements in the superset with conditions (C). With the current rewritten sentence, we do that. It was not adequately done before (since, for example, there are many optical phenomena which are unexplained which are not UFOs). I hope that we can improve on the superset (B) which is right now "object". I am not happy about saying that a UFO is necessarily an "object", but I'm not sure what to do about this. UFOs are certainly "coherent" phenomena for the most part, though there are reported "sightings" that were not coherent (E.g. "I saw bright lights"). If anyone has some suggestions for improving this, please make them.
-- ScienceApologist 18:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I recently made this project Wikipedia: Paranormal Watchers and would like some members or at least some tips to make it better Mahogany -wanna chat?
Culled from the article:
These paragraphs need to be cleaned up before they are presented in this encyclopedia. Here are the reasons:
Until these points are addressed, these paragraphs need to be removed from the article.
I should point out that survey research is a professional field. We should not be cavalier in our reporting of polls, especially when they are done by nonprofessionals and suffer shoddy design (such as those done by Sturrock or the magazine).
Thanks
-- ScienceApologist 19:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
There were a number of points that were included in the section outlining Phil Plait's assertions regarding UFOs that had to be removed for various reasons. The affected prose is reproduced below along with explanations for their culling and suggestions for what could be done to include such information in the article in a neutral fashion:
-- ScienceApologist 20:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
There is a huge amount of this article that would be better off merged into the Ufology section. (or, alternatively, Ufology article should be merged here.) As it is now there is quite a bit of duplication. I'd do it myself, but merging looks like it's going to be a huge mess. Does anyone have the time to take this task on? --- J.Smith 18:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The documentary channels have ran programming in which not only military planes have been chasing UFOs, they have shot some down, and the UFOs have also shot down some of the military planes. Martial Law 20:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC) :)
These two links state this matter. They are Astronauts FORBIDDEN to report UFOs and the source link sent to Jeff Rense is (link sent to Jeff Rense ) which states that Astronauts have been and are still forbidden to report UFOs, aliens. Martial Law 20:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC) :)
The newspaper doing this is the American Chronicle. since this is a two part article, two links are presented.
In a recent edit, "Despite this, it is often alleged..." is followed by, "However, proponents note that..."
Language like this inappropriately favors one side in the argument it describes. "Say" is often a simpler and better choice. Tom Harrison Talk 19:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes the presentation was "skewed", but to the skeptical side. What I wrote is hardly a "diatribe" but a legitimate counterpoint to the flagrantly POV skeptical argument. The skeptical argument presented is full of faulty reasoning, unverifiable statements, and arguments by assertion. For example, can ScienceApologist provide an actually legitimate source to the statement that "the general opinion of the mainstream scientific community is that no UFO sighting requires extraordinary explanations." I want an actual survey of scientists, not another of your made-up "facts." And to be consistent, since you demand only current surveys in another section, I similarly demand a current survey to back up this statement. To my knowledge, their are no such surveys, just assertions by skeptics that this is the prevailing opinion of scientists. Unverifiable say-so such as this should be deleted, which I rightfully did.
Here is another example of unverifiable statements, just more of your say-so:
Again, this is argument by assertion, a flagrantly POV statement, and also self-contradictory. What defines a UFO as a UFO is that it is NOT explained by any of the above. All of the cited conventional explanations have already been ruled out. That's already made clear in the first two paragraphs--most sightings have prosaic explanations such as misidentification, hoax, psychological, etc. However, those that aren't are unexplained or unidentified, i.e., UFOs. After this widely accepted argument and definition has been given, you then turn around and assert, "Yes, but the UFOs are also explainable by misidentification, hoax, psychological, etc."
This is truly amazing illogical reasoning.
Now added to this mess is the previously uncontested POV skeptical argument:
The only change I made to this was to modify the statement about eyewitness accounts being "notoriously unreliable." I toned this sweeping (and unsupported) assertion down and said they were often unreliable. But it is equally true that eyewitness accounts are often reliable, certainly reliable enough for investigators to make a determination. Truly unreliable reports and cases usually have a separate junk bin reserved for them, such as done by the French GEPAN/SEPRA scientific studies or the Battelle Memorial Institute USAF study back in the early 1950s.
What I did do is challenge these various points while leaving them intact. (It's called scientific debate, guys.) I didn't censor them, as you are doing to my points(then denying that you are doing it). It is simply NOT true that the scientific method demands that individual events be repeatable. In fact many well-recognized phenomena because of their transitory and individually nonrepeatable nature cannot be studied this way. I gave ball lighting and gamma ray bursters as examples. What is done instead is to collect multiple similar events and statistically analyze the results. Studying UFOs is no different. Likewise, eyewitness accounts, even if often individually unreliable, can be collectively studied by similar statistical methods, as is done in a number of well-recognized scientific disciplines, epidemiology being one example I gave. It is also not true that the scientific method requires hard physical evidence. Many scientific disciplines depend on indirect physical evidence augmented by theoretical argument. E.g., composition of stars is determined from spectra, not actual samples. Finally, I noted the simple fact that "Ockham's razor" is not some immutable law (as often represented by skeptics) but a rough guideline or "rule of thumb." It depends on individual judgment and cannot by itself tell us what theory is necessarily correct or whether currently well-recognized phenomena necessarily explain new, unexplained ones. If that were the case, there would never be anything new ever added to our knowledge, now would there? We would still be back in caves chipping stone tools.
Sorry to point out these actual facts. Stop the censorship and cut the disingenuous and hypocritical crap about how you trying to make the article NPOV and fully verifiable. All of the statements I challenged were transparent soap-box editorializing and none of them were verifiable. 66.117.135.19 01:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
First and foremost, I am NOT stepping on anyone's toes, etc. at all.
I think this whole section should be deleted from the article, for the following reasons:
It starts out with a quote with astronomer P. Plait saying that he hasn't personally heard from any astronomers who have seen something they couldn't identify. This is obviously a non-scientific statement with no particular value. Then it goes on to name some astronomers, or users of astronomical instruments, who have reported UFOs, demonstrating that Plait's obviously meaningless observation is meaningless. Then it goes on to list... something. A random collection of studies, or alleged studies, or investigations of studies, or statements by organizations or individuals, or alleged statements my organizations or individuals, in which the consensus conclusion, or the conclusion of a minority, or the alleged conclusion of one or more persons, is that there is or may be some credence to the ET hypothesis.
Note that I'm not objecting to this section because it's too pro-ETH. I object to it because it is utterly disorganized, makes no meaningful statement, and adds a lot of worthless bulk to an already over-long article. Comments? KarlBunker 16:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah but... even if that's true (re astronomers, I don't particularly doubt it re astronauts)... A) who cares? B) what does it have to do with the article? C) What does it have to do with the edit that I propose above? KarlBunker 20:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I basically agree. A little history will clarify what happened. This section was inserted by one of the resident debunkers Bubba73. Bubba quoted Plait's statement in order to insert his own little soapbox UFO debunking commentary. I immediately deleted Plait's quote, saying it was nothing but an anecdotal opinion and also contradicted by actual UFO reports and polls of astronomers, i.e., Plait's comment was totally nonfactual and had no place in an encyclopedia article. This drew howls of protest from Bubba and others who absolutely insisted the Plait comment remain. I then proceeded to add the studies that contradicted it, including some of the astronomer sighting reports, such as Tombaugh's. As opposed to the Plait comment, this was actual factual material. Another resident debunker, "ScienceApologist", then proceeded to delete most of this material, calling it "controversial" with the self-serving and arbitrary rationalizations that the contradictory astronomer polls (showing that astronomers did indeed report UFOs) were, in his personal opinion only, flawed and too old to be valid. Again, Plait's nonfactual (as you say, "meaningless") statement remained, now largely unchallenged (the whole real point of ScienceApologist's censorship).
The parts about various official studies or individuals within those studies concluding there was something to the ETH explanation was added after the skeptics added another POV and nonfactual statement that no scientific study had ever shown any evidence that UFOs were alien spacecraft. That is simply untrue and again should have been deleted as nonfactual. But since the skeptics insist on retaining slanted material ridiculing the subject, no matter how nonfactual, the only other option is to counter it. Thus the material grows like a malignant tumor.
This, unfortunately, is one of the common problems with the Wikipedia model, particularly with highly controversial subjects like this one. Anybody can contribute, including highly biased nonexperts. One obvious solution is to chop out the initial malignancies, i.e., that the nonfactual soap-box comments of those obviously trying to push a personal agenda. Then counterarguments are not needed to balance things out. E.g., Plait's comment should never have been in there and should have immediately been deleted once the problems with it were pointed out. That seems like a no-brainer. I tried to do that, but met with a wall of opposition. So again, the only other option is to try to present factual evidence against it to balance things out.
If a section on astronomers was to remain, it would still be necessary to cite polling material and sighting reports to demonstrate that astronomers do indeed report UFOs, just like everybody else. You can't meaningfully discuss the subject of astronomers and UFOs without bringing up this material. This, however, contradicts standard skeptical dogma that astronomers never report UFOs (e.g. Plait). We would again hear the standard whine that the section is slanted to the pro-ETH side. The material would probably again be censored by guys like ScienceApologist. The whole mess would start all over again. It may be best just to delete the whole thing. Dr Fil 21:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It has often amazed me to see remarkably balanced and well-written articles in Wikipedia on controversial topics. Even when there are clearly "warring parties" on the part of editors to the article, the evidence of the conflict is only in the discussion page, not in the article itself. This article is largely an exception to that. The article consists largely of obvious instances of editors saying "oh yeah?!" "oh yeah?!" back and forth at each other. The section about astronomers is the worst example of that. This is kind of funny, because astronomers really don't have anything to do with UFOs. Astronomical instruments aren't designed for, and aren't much good at, looking at or looking for UFOs. Astronomers aren't trained in identifying flying objects or aerial phenomenon that might look like flying objects. The only justification for mentioning astronomers at all in this article is that some astronomers have done work in SETI, or have speculated about ETI, and that relates (vaguely) to the ET hypothesis of UFOs. I'm going to delete that section. If anyone objects, please state your reasons here. KarlBunker 00:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
"Alleged disinterest on the part of the scientific community is an equally unimpressive claim. Scientists are constantly competing with one another to be the first with a great discovery, and clear evidence of alien visitors would certainly rank high on the all-time list. Countless researchers woudl work evening and weekends, without pay, if they could make such a discovery. The fact that few scientists are engaged in such study reflects not a lack of interest, but a lack of evidence worthy of study."
"Of course, absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Most scientists are open to the possibility that we might someday find evidence of alien visits, and many would welcome aliens with open arms. So far, however, we have no hard evidence to support the belief that aliens are already here."
I would point out that this is from one of the most common introductory astronomy texts for non-science majors used in the country. Certainly a verifiable and useful source of information!
-- ScienceApologist 21:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The author is expressing a personal opinion, nothing more. Can you "verify" he said it? Sure! Is it factual? That's another matter. Where's the verification for it? Even if factual, is it really "useful information"? Not really. It doesn't say much. The same argument could be applied to SETI, e.g. Why aren't there tens of thousands of scientists working "nights and weekends" looking for radio signals from distant alien civilizations? That would also certainly be a great discovery. If you want to find out why there aren't, you would need to delve into other topics such as lack of funding and lack of expectations of quick payback. In other words, simpleminded statements of opinion knocking absence of large numbers of scientist in SETI also are not really "useful information."
When it supports your personal agenda, you debunking guys seem to endlessly confuse "verification" of the expression of an opinion with actual verification of the factual content of the opinion itself. A perfect example is the Plait quote that amateur astronomers never report UFOs. That's a personal opinion of Plait's. That Plait made the statement can be verified, but the factual accuracy of it cannot. The reason it can't be verified is because it isn't true. Every study that's ever been done on this shows it isn't true. Astronomers, both amateur and professional, do indeed report UFOs, period. You, for some reason, can't handle that, and instead chose to censor this material while leaving Plait's erroneous and truly unverifiable statement untouched.
You seem to be a little unclear what what the word "verification" really means. Dr Fil 22:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The only way that the Skeptics (in general) will believe anyone, the govt suppression protocol, such as the Robertson Panel, Project Grudge, related protocol is to be cancelled is that someone/something finds us as Ronald Reagan has stated in one of his speeches. When that happens is when the planet erupts in planetwide rebellion. See Re.:Rebellion above. I am NOT accusing,etc. anyone at all, only stating what may happen, should there be alien contact, no more, no less. Martial Law 23:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC) :)
Do you happen to have a source for that comment? Thanks, --- J.Smith 20:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I must protest the continued deletion by KarlBunker of the 1886 Scientific American Venezuelan report of physiological injury. This case has been cited for months without problem. The reasons given for suddenly deleting it continue to seem arbitrary to me. Saying the case is too old to be of value is nonsense. No scholar of any subject automatically rejects old items as being useless just because they are old. How else are you supposed to gain a historical perspective if you arbitrarily throw out everything historical? The very fact that it is old is precisely why it is valuable in order to provide context. One argument often used by skeptics is that UFO reports are all contemporary and the result of cultural and media influences. Yet here is an example of something reported that sounds exactly like a modern UFO close encounters report, including the oft-reported bright lights and humming, long before anybody ever heard of any such things. But more remarkably, to my thinking, is the reported physiological symptoms of skin burns, lesions, and hair loss that sound exactly like symptoms of radiation poisoning, most likely exposure to intense microwave radiation. Yet this is at least 50 years before anything was known about such things. How could the letter writer be so prescient as to fake all these details? This is a strong argument against the letter being some form of hoax.
The argument that Scientific American back then wasn't a respected magazine is an extremely weak one. Even if one accepts this, it's beside the poiint. The citation is perfectly valid (I've looked up the item myself at the library) and the letter stands on its own merits because of all the included details that would have been almost impossible to fake at the time. Would you automatically reject 19th century reports of sizzling meteor sounds as being worthless just because they were reported in an old newspaper instead of Science magazine?
Finally the evidence for UFOs is in examination of case reports, particularly noteworthy ones. Let the reader decide whether the cases cited are worthwhile evidence or not. Trying to eliminate references to such important cases is cutting the meat out of the article while leaving in a lot of meaningless fat that provides the reader no useful information. E.g., the paragraph at the top of the section about the evidence being hoaxes, explainable, or unidentified but ambiguous is a sweeping generalization that doesn't tell the reader anything of substance about physical evidence cases (the topic of the section) and is also repeated elsewhere in the article in various ways such as in "Explanations and Opinions" and "Identified Flying Objects." How many times is it necessary for the same point to be made? If you are concerned about unnecessary repetition and article length, why not cut that paragraph out? It adds nothing to the article that isn't already there and wouldn't be missed in the slightest. Dr Fil 20:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
That section needs to be removed from this article. It is massively redundant to the ufology article. If no one else wants to volunteer to do it, I'll do it sometime this weekend. --- J.S ( t| c) 16:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the second version is wide enough to encompass all the different possibilities, no? --- J.S ( t| c) 21:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted back to a definition similar to one used in a much earlier Wiki intro. This pointed out that there is a simple, literal definition that UFO means anything aerial that is unidentified. Furthermore, I noted, as in many definitions, that the reason the thing can't be readily identified is because there is something unusual about it, usually the shape, type of motion, or brightness. E.g., this is why the USAF in its early investigations from 1947 stated in documents that they thought the phenomenon real and deserving of further, intense study. There were various anomalous characteristics that set these observations apart from prosaic flying objects. It is also along the lines of how the USAF officially defined UFOs in their Air Force Regulation 200-2 from 1954.
Then it contrasts this with Hynek's more complex definition, preferred by scientists and other serious researchers, that "UFO" should be applied only to those instances where what is observed continues to defy identification after careful investigation by techically experienced and well-qualified investigators. In other words, those things that can eventually be readily identified are merely "noise" whereas those things that continue to defy identification are related to actual "signal" or the heart of the phenomenon. ScienceApologist previously dumped this long-included Hynek definition with the rationalization that it was "POV". In his mind, claiming that something was thoroughly investigated was POV or that those investigating were experts was POV. Although this can conceivably be a problem, it is pretty clear what is meant by the Hynek definition. A UFO isn't just something mysterious to the great unwashed and unsophisticated masses who might report such things (leaving out the fact that those reporting are often already experts), but remains mysterious and unidentified even after intense effort has been expended by well-qualified people to come up with a plausible explanation, people like teams of scientists and engineers, aviation experts, and the like.
Another minor thing added is to point out that UFO and extraterrestrial spaceship are frequently equated in popular usage. This isn't my definition or observation, but is frequently found in dictionary definitions. E.g., Wiktionary gives a 2nd definition: of "(colloquial) An alien aircraft". The Oxford Compact Dictionary defines UFO as: "a mysterious object seen in the sky for which it is claimed no orthodox scientific explanation can be found, popularly said to be a vehicle carrying extraterrestrials."
Words like "impermanence" are definitely out. Not only is it POV (suggesting nonexistence or insubstantiality just like the just-dumped POV "apparition"), it is also completely inaccurate. Words like "impermanence" have never been used to try to define UFO, for the simple reason that UFOs are no more "impermanent" than anything else that can be identified, like meteors or jet planes. In fact, when the duration of sightings was studied statistically by the Battelle Institute for the USAF back in 1952-54, they found that their UFO category tended to have somewhat longer durations than their IFO category. Saying that a defining characteristic of UFOs is "impermanence" is like saying a defining characteristic of humans is hunger.
I also dumped "motility," which is extreme vague and nondescriptive by itself. Noting that there is something unusual about the "motion" (instead of simple motility) as one of several possible unusual characteristics, better defines the characteristics and the scope of the phenomenon. "Unusual motion" covers a wide gamut of reported UFO anomalous characteristics, such as high speed, high acceleration, high maneuverability (90/180 degree turns, hairpin turns, tight circling, etc.), high rates of vertical climb or dive, hovering, zig-zagging, "falling leaf" motion, etc.
I'm still not terribly happy with the disclaimer that "most scientists" disagree (but have left the statement currently untouched). First of all, I know of no current study of scientific opinions on the subject. Furthermore, unless they have actually studied the existing data in some depth, I'm not sure how relevant such opinions are one way or the other. It's like saying, "most scientists" believe in the Big Bang," including everybody who calls themselves a "scientist", such as biologists, anthropologists, bacteriologists, M.D.'s and the like. Who cares? What counts are only the "scientists" with the necessary expertise, such as astronomers, cosmologists, physicists, etc., and who have also studied the relevant data and theories. Thus the statement that "most scientists" disagree is currently vague, unsupported, and I'm not sure particularly relevant. Its inclusion seems to be to insert a skeptical POV in the introduction using argument by authority. Perhaps it can be reworded to be more neutral or indicate that opinions among scientific experts vary widely though perhaps the majority are currently skeptical. Dr Fil 21:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
The "totally disputed" tag has been on this page since the beginning of time. For a popular topic such as UFO's, one would think it would be cleared up by now. I've read through all the arguing/BS/etc. When is this going to finally be settled???? -- JOK3R 19:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
3 Research
4 Ufology - people and organizations
I'll be doing the pruning sometime tonight. Relevant info well be merged into the Ufology article, where it truly belongs (except for section 4, that will go to the list of ufologists). If anyone has any problem with this. Let me know and we can talk about it. --- J.S ( t| c) 21:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"A confidential Ministry of Defence report on Unidentified Flying Objects has concluded that there is no proof of alien life forms."
First of all, mobility and impermanence need to be in the definition. That's an important feature of UFOs.
Secondly, the appeal to authority regarding Hynek was absurd. "Dr."? Who cares? Carl Sagan was a doctor. Do we refer to him as "Dr. Carl Sagan"? No! The appellation is an appeal to authority. So is his astronomical and air force careers: totally irrelevant to the introduction. The reason he should be quoted is because he studies UFOs. That's what makes him an expert worthy of citation. His astronomical and air force background are irrelevant. -- ScienceApologist 18:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I tried to put in a connector sentence to the third intro paragraph. I think it's verifiable and will provide a citation if necessary. -- ScienceApologist 20:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to look it up in Wikionary to no avail... perhaps it is too archaic/technical of a term? Can we find simpler wording, for simple folks like me? --- J.S ( t| c) 20:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The tag is still in place on the article because there is still a lot of work to be done to bring it to a neutral level and to verify information. In particular, much of the prose on modern UFO research needs to be balanced with the skeptical perspective. Until we finish this task, it is best to leave the tag in place. -- ScienceApologist 20:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Technically, a UFO is anything in the air that the government can't tell what it is, also, aliens? I find it highly improbable that earth is the ONLY planet that has life on it, but i doubt any other planets with (intellegent) life would be close enough to "pay a visit" this article is speculation, and should be deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.152.89 ( talk • contribs)
I tried to remove it because i felt guilty because he was right, and this discussion has gotten completely off track. A UFO is not necessarily a spaceship.