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I'm moving this page to Umami because Umami is the much more commonly used spelling. It gets 23,200 google hits and Umame gets only 917 [1] Nohat 02:11, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)
It also doesn't say much for the spelling "umame" for the fact that 8 of the top 10 google hits for it are Wikipedia or Wikipedia mirrors. [2] Nohat 03:56, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)
If I'm reading the article correctly, this isn't actually a taste in and of itself, but rather, a perception of the intensity of a taste.
So can it really be considered a separate flavor sensation at all?
I propose translating umami as zesty. And I claim there are six tastes, not five, oil being one of the six. lysdexia 16:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
To me umami does not taste zesty at all, its quite mellow, buy some MSG at an asian food market and see for yourself.
All the literature I've read suggests that its a basic taste, with its own taste receptors, and is not 'intensity' or 'zest'. I've never heard of taste receptors for oil. Maybe you could cite some research that supports your claims, since I can't find any.
-- Johnkarp 00:17, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If umami is "considered basic" in Chinese and Japanese cuisine, then how can it have been "discovered" in 1907? The second statement implies that umami had not been much noticed by anyone, anywhere until 1907 -- and in conjunction, the two statments suggest that Umami was discovered by Kikunae Ikeda and, in the following 100 years, became so incredibly popular in Chinese and Japaneese cooking that it gained widespread acknowledgement as a fifth basic taste.
For all I know, something like that may be the case, but I am skeptical. Surly the taste was "discovered" by Japanese and Chinese cooks long ago, and then later formally or scientifically described as one of the five basic tastes by Kikunae Ikeda. Could someone who knows more than me about this clarify this article? Solemnavalanche 06:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: after some basic Wikipedia research, I realized that both I and the article were mistaken. "Umami" was not discovered in 1907; monosodium glutamate was. I've fixed the error. Solemnavalanche 07:56, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The only cited link for this miracle new scientific discovery appears to be from a MSG Industry Pressure Group, spewing pro da about how MSG is really safe after all, honest guv. I'm not sure it's a reliable link at all. 83.244.149.133 12:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed "5 basic tastes" to 7 because that's what it says in the general Basic Tastes article. -- Coolbho3000 12:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"The researchers called 'taste-mGluR4'." is not a complete sentence.
I've just edited the sentence. Roaming27 05:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the part: "The discovery of the [umami] receptor is interesting especially since the receptor for bitter has not yet been identified." This for two reasons: I could not find any reference to this fact in the wikipedia basic tastes main article, and there were no outside referece to this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.214.3.201 ( talk)
i re-deleted the part saying that the bitter receptor has not been identified as it says that it has been in the basic tastes main article under bitter. I know this isn't the most accurate way of comparing things, so if anyone can check whether there is proof that the bitter receptor has been discovered that would be helpful. Though on the otherhand it's best to leave it out altogether as its not relevant to the article and why is it interesting to people looking at unami? It suggests that bitter is a more important taste
T2R receptors are sweet taste receptors. -unsigned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.91.47 ( talk) 13:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The T2R receptor is for bitter, according to this on cell.com [3] According to this on nature.com [4], umami is monosodium glutamate. Since everybody has heard of MSG, and since there are lot of myths about it (foodies claim to dislike it, while claiming to love umami) it seems this fact should be featured more prominently on the page. 69.203.73.99 ( talk) 22:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
When I wrote 'rv to version by 70.44.196.93' in my recent edit summary of the main umami page, I meant 'rv to version by 82.214.3.201'. Sorry. -- PhiJ 21:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The two paragraphs of 'Negative effects' are lifted wholesale from the Excitotoxicity article. The negative effects of glutamate aren't really relevant to an article about the sensation of its flavor, so I've replaced them with a single sentance that just acknowleges that there are negative effects. -- Dcfleck 17:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Uh oh, hrm there seems to be a discrepency and I didn't realize it was removed seriously, BUT this information is new to wikipedia and it needs a home. I'd like to find out where it goes rather than removing it from the books completely. Klichka ( talk) 08:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
A New Taste Sensation. TfB ( talk) 23:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
on huitlacoche, check (if u can read spanshit) [5] pinchi ranchero,-- kiddo ( talk) 00:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Twice in this article on umami Adenosine TriPhosphate is implicated as a neurotransmitter. While ATP is of great importance in the cell, leave the cell it does not. Especially not to communicate with other cells in the body. I guess then my question would be: WTF? JMcCarthy53 ( talk) 22:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Purinergic receptors have now been characterised, which respond to ATP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADP_receptor) 59.101.184.123 ( talk) 08:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be worth mentioning in the article the notion of kokutai or national characteristics ideology. There are academics in Japan that spew propaganda that Japanese are a unique race. They will list examples such as having different intestines than Westerners (so they do not digest meat the same way), having different brains due to using kanji (Chinese) characters and having a fundamentally different temperment from Westerners becuase they live in a mushi atsui (hot and humid) climate.
Saying that the Japanese have a taste that Westerners don't have and so one must use the word umami is falling into the kokutai ideology. Umami is a savouriness with a Japanese PR team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.188.131 ( talk) 05:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Or maybe Nihonjinron is more relevant here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.188.131 ( talk) 06:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The claim that "umami" is a traditional concept/flavor in Japan (or "generally recognized") should be demonstrated by finding sources older than Ikeda (e.g., secondary sources about Japanese culture in the 19th century, such as Lafcadio Hearn).
This article and the one on savoriness read like infomercials from Ajinomoto, the Japanese company that manufactures MSG and has been promoting glutamates as "natural" for the past couple of decades. We see zero mention of risks or adverse effects, but even salt (a well-known naturally occurring substance) can be dangerous in certain quantities or under specific conditions.
According to a Japanese friend, Ajinomoto changed the name of their product from ""kagaku tyo^miryo^" (chemical condiment or seasoning) to "umami tyo^miryo^" during the past 20-25 years, suggesting that they are motivated to spin "umami" as universal and traditional.
I flagged the claim "generally recognized" in the lead, because the page on taste mentions a wide variety of gustatory sensations, suggesting that here is no definitive consensus on "five". Martindo ( talk) 01:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This page presents confused and confusing claims about the "long history" of umami. Even in Japan, the flavor was only identified 100 years ago by Ikeda (who should not be relied on too heavily, because he was eventually biased by his financial interests). If there was no word in common use -- and if the average person in most countries doesn't name "savory" as a specific "basic taste" -- then the claim of "generally recognized" is subjective and probably POV.
I would also like to see changes made to the basic tastes page, but first let's see what kind of consensus can be hashed out here. The page on traditional Chinese medicine mentions five basic tastes in passing. If I recall correctly, the fifth is spicy/pungent, not "savory". So, any references to "Eastern civilizations" agreeing on umami is grandiose if not inaccurate. Martindo ( talk) 02:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani reverted a few recent changes with comment "+Japanese and Chinese-specific information about this term of East Asian origin".
I object to this on many levels. First, not just the aspect mentioned in the comment were reverted, but other good changes were undone.
Secondly, the only information added was a Chinese translation which is irrelevant not just to the subject matter, but also to the etymology of the term, which is a Japanese loanword. The Chinese translation adds no useful information to this article, and is as relevant as translations in any other language would be. 205.228.108.185 ( talk) 01:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani, you have done it again. Can we please talk about it here? 122.26.33.28 ( talk) 21:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 06:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Umami → Savoriness — I have NEVER heard the term "Umami" used outside of a soy sauce advertisement. As far as I can tell, this term was introduced to the English speaking world as part of a soy sauce PR campaign. I would suggest that keeping this article here, under this non-English name, is providing free advertising for this firm, by spreading the use of their promotional neologism. I would suggest moving this page to Savoriness (already a redirect for this article), in the interests of non-promotion, using English titles and Calling a spade a spade. If "Savoriness" isn't a perfect English translation of this invented term, find a better translation! There are many terms that do not translate perfectly between languages. Wuh Wuz Dat 16:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Molecular comparison of various extracts from Yeast, Citrus, propolis etc and more....
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Why exactly is it that the English Wikipedia uses a Japanese loanword as the main topic article of a sense of taste which the majority of all native English speakers know as "savory"? Never in my life have I heard the word "umami", until finding this page here. Why go about using a loanword when there's a suitable enough English word already? PaZuZu 13:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Just for reference, there has been a bit of a discussion of this issue over on the basic taste talk page (which has now been merged with taste - the link is to an archive of the page). -- PhiJ 16:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
If Umami is the same as 鮮味 in Chinese, then I must strongly, strongly emphasise that Umami is NOT the same as savoury. 鮮味 is NOT the same as savoury. It is much more than that. 鮮味 comes from a taste description palette that is not used at all in western mentality. 鮮味 includes a kind of freshness to flavour, lightness to flavour, and a kind of sensual experience that Chinese would call clarity and purity of taste. -- 71.146.2.156 ( talk) 01:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest an English translation for the word. I believe savoury works very well, from reading it. The issue in the original post, a non-English word among English words, should be addressed. It is not that loanwords are not a positive, it is that the top words, Sweetness, Bitterness, Sourness, Saltiness, are words that English speaking people can read and understand. If you see "Sourness", you can taste it. "Umami" as a descriptor does not work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.250.38 ( talk) 03:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
This is the actual official word. Take it up with scientists/researchers if you don't like it, not a wikipedia talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.160.74 ( talk) 05:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
the extracts, especially from
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
with bamboo shoot (optional) -- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It can not be denied that the dishes of the above three in conbination with the bamboo shoot are very delicious. Why not to extract their brothes-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The proper Japanese Kanji for umami taste is うま味. This is how professor Ikeda wrote it in his description to distinguish umami basic taste from good taste that is 旨味. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Savouriness redirects here, yet there is no explanation about how these two terms are related. I believe whenever there is a redirect, the redirected term is supposed to feature in bold in the lead (see WP:R#PLA). Here it is barely even mentioned in the article.
I am not an expert in the subject matter, but this is Wikipedia, not Nerdopedia. It is supposed to explain stuff in an accessible way. If 99% of people cannot distinguish the concepts of savouriness and umami, and only a small number of umamologists understand the difference, then we should say so in the lead. On the other hand, if the two concepts are so different, then surely we should have two articles - and still explain the relationship between the two.
Thanks. 221.47.185.2 ( talk) 08:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The section of umami receptors in the stomach was erased because it did not seem relevant to umami taste itself. This would be more appropriate to discuss on a different topic such us the physiological effect of nutrients in the gastrointestinal tract. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 07:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The term umami was born from the scientific contribution of doctor Kikunea Ikeda who not only proposed for the first time the existence of a fifth basic taste but also isolated glutamate as the component of seaweed responsible for this taste. The term savoriness came later when there was a need to translate the concept of umami and was borrowed from savory. Savory contains a more general meaning that umami because it does not specifically refers only to the fifth basic taste but the overall taste of a dish. Since umami was recognized as the scientific term to described the fifth basic taste it has been widely used in the scientific and gastronomic community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me? "the term savoriness came later...?" Are you kidding me? According to Merriam-Webster dictionary-the term was first used in the 1970s! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/umami
Any real study of the development of this term will show that the term "savory" and "savoriness" have been in use since way before Mr. Ikeda was even a twinkle in his father's eye! Even a simple understanding of the development of the term "savoriness" shows that the term has been in wide use since the Roman Republic and before (Middle English savure, from Old French savoure, past participle of savourer, to taste, from Late Latin sapōrāre, from Latin sapor, flavor.)
I can't believe that if the vast majority of the population (both within the scientific/gastronomic community and without) use the far older and far more widely accepted term "savory" to describe a taste phenomenon, Wikipedia should be so politically correct as to accept "umami" as the new standard/term just because the "First Umami International Symposium" says it is so! "Officially recognized?" By whom? And under what authority? Said symposium alone (whose sole stated purpose was to do just that?) What a crock!
The title of this article should be "Savory" and "Umami" should redirect here, not the other way around. 60.38.117.173 ( talk) 01:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/savory#ixzz1NPykmwf5
Indeed: where is Umami in the above dictionary entry? If it is an "officially recognized term," shouldn't dictionaries do what Wikipedia now preposterously does and "correct" the "misconception" (held by 99% of the world's population, no less!) that the actual term is "umami" and not "savory?" Merriam-Webster states that "umami" means "savoriness" but "savory" doesn't yet mean "umami!"
freedictionary.com states that, far from being "officially recognized," it is "sometimes" used to identify a fifth taste group: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/umami
and there's NOTHING at all about "umami" at Houghton Mifflin: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/?s=umami
Ha! Another attempt for PC-ness to trump fact here at Wikipedia. 60.38.117.173 ( talk) 01:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree with other posts on this page that "savoriness" should be the page name. Notwithstanding, I don't understand the first paragraph's emphasis on the use of kana for "umami". I've not read Ikeda-sensei's white paper wherein the term was coined, but i can guarantee that 甘み and 甘味 are commonly-used orthographies to render "umami", meaning the savory taste of glutamates, with kanzi. "Umai", the stem from which the compound word "umami" is drawn, can be spelt many different ways, so the assertion that kanzi cannot be used for the "uma" in "umami", because 旨味 (also read "umami") has a different meaning than the flavour, is incorrect. The text should be changed to delete the unnecessary introductory plug for Ikeda-sensei, and the Japanese rendering should be updated to reflect the commonly-used all-kanzi rendering of "umami", 甘味. It is simply mistaken to say that only うま味 can be used. 74.192.195.94 ( talk) 08:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator - non-admin close. Miracle Pen ( talk) 12:05, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Umami →
Umami (taste) –. The name of the title would be more clear because without the added word "taste" there is no meaning to those not familiar with "Umami", which is supposedly one of "five basic
tastes: sweetness, bitterness, sourness, saltiness, and umami." The Japanese loan word would be more meaningful with (taste) added, especially since this is the "English Wikipedia".
Otr500 (
talk)
04:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs serious work and I will support any editor wishing to take a stab at corrections. original research like, " popularly referred to as savoriness" needs to be addressed, since not one of the 5 references address this.
I find it appalling and ridiculous that a very common word, used in both AmE and BrE, be redirected to an uncommon, and relatively new (we are not in Asia or Japan), scientific word. Some of the references for the article infer authority in defining the word ( "You say savory, I say umami"), but I can not find where the "senior technical editor", Frances Katz, is a renown expert in the field of umami or that he is a doctor or scientist. There was an explanation in his article that makes some sense, "...identification of a protein-based savory flavor...".
I am still trying to connect that umami could be a technical or scientific synonym for savor, savory (savoury), or savoriness. To state that umami is savoriness is to suggest that something with the right amount of salt, sugar, spices, etc., but containing no umami, could not be savory. Try this example out, "That first cup of coffee this morning was so good I umamied every drop". I could have "savored" every drop except Wikipedia allowed the meaning to be changed. Umami will not become a common use word to replace savory and attempts to do so need to be reverted. A name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) should be explored. Otr500 ( talk) 01:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. Then you agree with my comments that the article needs work and the improper redirects corrected? Your reply is exactly what my concern is about. I may have to try dashi to to experience "true unami" but I do not have to consume unami to experience savoriness. Would you agree that food does not have to contain unami to be mouthwatering, delicious, and savory? If you agree with this then the words in question; savory, savoriness, etc... are improperly redirected to unami. My example that included coffee is to show that the redirected word "savory", as the redirects as well as parts of the article implies, are interchangeable and not synonyms and I will argue this to the 10th degree. Your reference, [19] (number 8,) lists savouriness (savoury) twice, good flavor once, delicious (and savoury), deliciousness, the Japanese word for perfection, or the fifth taste as it relates to food, and as a distinct taste, as evidence that there are many words used to describe umami. There was no comment but I still feel the suggested name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) is more appropriate to Wikipedia. Otr500 ( talk)
I figured exploring would be better than attaching a lot of tags of which may be sure to come without improvements. I am not arguing that there is not a taste called "unami". I haven't looked and you may be an expert, but re-read the article and my concerns. This is an encyclopedia for learning. If I do not know something I look it up. When I find the information it must be written so I can comprehend it. Here is an example: "You'll never know the taste unless you try non-artificial genuine fresh dashi". If someone tries dashi, finds it delectable, but does not know about the word "unami", then they can not possibly know that they have experienced unami, even though they did. The English language has thousands of words that can be used to help a reader understand the experience of unami so the editor must find some of these words that will make the article and definition more clear. Redirecting a common word (words) to allow for exposure of this scientific word means the title is not clear. This is why I suggested exploring a title change to "Umami (taste)", or "Umami (sense of taste)" and the proper category placements. You stated, "Savoriness is not an equivalent word for the loan word umami", and I agree but the definition, along with the redirects, beg to differ. Umami is a loanword from the Japanese umami meaning "pleasant savory taste". The subject is "taste" and the words pleasant savory modify this. Help me out and see if some changes can be made to make the article easier to understand for the general population. You state that I don't understand so help me, and others. Lets not forget the rules concerning original research such as popularly referred. I have stated concerns and I can tag all these or someone can help me out since I do not "understand". You stated, "I think umami is a part of savoriness", and this may be true but considering the redirects it is inferred that unami is savoriness and I disagree. Unami is a taste right? It may be a savory taste but still a taste. There would be argument that one may not find unami savory. Salty is salty, regardless of the likes or dislikes of someone experiencing the taste, and the same with sweet, bitter etc...
"The sensation of umami is due to the detection of the carboxylate anion of glutamate.", so I looked these up. They are glutamates and glutamic acid (natural) and are responsible for the umami taste. According to Kikunae Ikeda umami has an "ineffable but undeniable flavor...". Whew! this means that there are not enough words to give meaning to umami since the definition of ineffable is, incapable of being expressed or described in words or inexpressible. If this is true then someone has their work cut out for them for we now have a new 5th taste that can not be described or defined but some members of the scientific community support.
Multiple users have made overwhelming arguments to remove "savory=umami" equivalencies from this article yet they persist...to the detriment and confusion of all readers. I just finished reading the main entry and was so confused I came to this section to find out what the truth was. Clearly, English lexicographers do not see the common usage of "savory" being related to umami. That day may come. But until then this ENCYCLOPEDIA entry needs to stick to commonly understood meanings of words or else put the words with newly made up meanings in "quotations" <-- like that. And that needs to be done immediately. N0w8st8s ( talk) 20:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)n0wa8st8s
Who is German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen? According to the article Glutamic acid he "discovered and identified" the substance in 1866, 41 years before Kikunae Ikeda but there is no mention of this. There is also no mention of Saburosuke Suzuki II and the company Ajinomoto Co., Inc. [1] [2] that he founded to market monosodium glutamate (MSG) with Kikunae Ikeda as a partner. Otr500 ( talk)
The lead section needs to be expanded following the guidelines. A paragraph of a section that is farther down under "Discovery of umami taste" might be better in the lead or higher up at any rate.
I just think that adding "taste" or "sense of taste" will give understanding to the word. I do not mind editing the article but I am working on the "grasp" if you know what I mean. I live in Louisiana, in the Cajun heartland, so I understand the importance of enhancing taste. We use a seasoning called Tony Chachere's Creole seasoning that contains wheat, soy, and/or milk, along with salt, red pepper, black pepper, spiced chili powder (a mixture with chili peppers, other spices, salt and garlic powder), and garlic on many dishes and we also use a Cajun roux. I understand about the chicken stock very well. We use beef and chicken bouillon cubes that contains monosodium glutamate and wheat, and we also use gyoza sauce. I love certain Japanese as well as Chinese dishes because of the fantastic taste except we don't eat rice not smothered in gravy.
I have been researching and have to check the reliability of references. One of the references concerning Saburosuke Suzuki II is from the Ajinomoto Co., Inc web site (history section) and I wanted to find corroborating information. I also found one reference on German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen but a lot of information is on non-acceptable and mirror sites. This will take a while because I am working on a few things already and I would like there to be an article on "Savory" (or savoriness). If I do edit and there is a mistake (since I still breath I am good at that) or something is wrong either correct it or take it out. There will be no edit war with collaboration and we can discuss reasoning and adding it back or not on the talk page. The discussed, "Western food scientists are divided about whether it really exists or not", is an opposing view and is actually very important for the article for NPOV. It is not relevant why they disagree but if this can be found with a source that is all the better and will prevent a tag. "Western" sources being cited is also good. I have found one from "Colorado State University [3] that should have relevant information. Dr. Paul Breslin [4] is a sensory geneticist at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia is involved in studies of Umami. I will put a hidden note on the article that collaboration is underway for improvements which might possibly stem any fly-by tagging. Otr500 ( talk) 17:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
"Oda Mari", I think "Umami (taste) would be better than the current title. If there are no objections, and since you "don't mind changing the article name", I would suggest this would be a major improvement. Otr500 ( talk) 16:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
It can be done that way or with no objections (none so far) can be boldly changed. If someone objects (or reverts) then it can go to "REQMOVE". I am not proficient at doing this and the redirects but can try. Otr500 ( talk) 00:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I will attempt to seek a name change.
I'm confused on when or why Umami was formed and what it replaced and why it replaced it. What is the story behind all this anyway? I never learned about Umami in school (it was a while ago) and have only known savoury. I have seen this huge uproar on Wikipedia about savoury vs. Umami, or even on the word Umami itself being acceptable as a loan word. This whole debate, its defenders and its attackers, is baffling. Something so polarizing is amazing! Where did this come from?!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.229.247 ( talk) 03:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
The Umami entry has stirred some discussion. Perhaps a the the wording below could help the understanding of umami
Taste is a characteristic of chemical compositions and associated with food. (However, non foods have tastes too!). Specifically taste is a result of in impulse from a specific receptor in the nervous system. Formerly, tastes where classified as salty, sour, bitter, or sweet which are attributed to different “taste” receptor cells. Today there is a fifth taste called savoriness and sometimes referred to umami (a Japenese word roughly meaning savory). Technically, in order to truly be classified as a specific taste, a specific chemical receptor must be identified that triggers the taste. In the case of umami, the sense of the taste is a result of more than one mechanism and receptor cell, but as such is still identified as a unique taste. The chemical activity resulting in the umami taste is associated with L-glutamate (in acidic and salt forms). ( Brand, J.G. “Receptor and Transduction Processes for Umami Taste.” The Journal of Nutrition. jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/942.full.pdf 2000. WEB. 12 Sept 2011.
Li, Xiaodng. “T1R resceptors mediate mammalian sweet and umami taste.” American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Vol. 90 no. 3. Sept 2009. http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/733S.short. WEB. 12 Sept 2011.)
Taste receptors are located inside the taste buds which are found in the tongue, soft palate, upper esophagus, and epiglottis...
This just a thought that may help in clarifying and validating umami as a test. Yes, there appears to be scientific proof of a specific taste mechanism for umami which earn it the 5th taste classification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexasBruin ( talk • contribs) 21:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I only heard of Umami recently, and I came to this article looking for clarification. I don't find it very helpful. There seems in fact to be a controversy, not referred to in the article, over whether Umami is a basic 'taste' at all: for example see this: http://obscurearchives.stupidquestion.net/umami.html The fact (if it is a fact) that the tongue has specific receptors for Umami does not prove that it is a taste in the same sense as sweet, salty, sour and bitter. On the other hand, the fact that a taste is difficult to describe doesn't mean it isn't really a taste, because ultimately any sensation can only be exemplified, not described. But in the case of Umami there seems to be a real difficulty in giving an example of a 'pure' Umami taste. Some say it is the taste of monosodium glutamate, while others deny that MSG has a taste at all. It's all very confusing. 86.185.113.170 ( talk) 14:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC) Added: I bought some MSG to try it for myself. I would describe it (taken neat on the tongue) as tasting like a weak meat extract - slightly salty and not very pleasant. 109.158.44.140 ( talk) 19:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
"the resulting taste intensity is higher than the sum of both ingredients." "the umami taste sensation of those ingredients mixed together surpasses the taste of each one alone." 66.26.95.207 ( talk) 23:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
This is the English version of WIKIPEDIA. Umami is NOT an English word or concept. "Savoriness" is the appropriate word for one of the basic tastes familiar to "foodies" or gourmets, it should be discussed in an article of its own. LAWinans ( talk) 22:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, I think "Savoriness" should be the title of the article, because of this being the English language Wikipedia. Also, I feel there is a lot of bias in the article, as if a proponent of Umami and of the japanese spelling wrote it. It makes mention of Umami being the most common name for savoriness in other languages like Spanish, which as a native speaker I can guarantee you it is not. Alan MB ( talk) 09:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
What can you tell me in view of [20]? -- kmath ( talk) 23:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC) ref: Huitlacoche
From what I know, the traditional Korean word for umami is gamchilmat (감칠맛). This taste description wasn't that common in the past, so to speak. Komitsuki ( talk) 17:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Indeed. Go find a Japanese person over age 40 who remembers using "umami" frequently in his or her childhood. This term has been promoted as part of the rebranding of Ajinomoto which has redefined MSG as a "natural flavor in itself" rather than a "flavor enhancer" (technically a drug, because it claims to change perception). Martindo ( talk) 23:22, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
In the intro to the article, "metallic" is cited as a taste. I went through and fixed the citation only to discover that when I read it, the article actually describes metallic taste as being a consequence of the retronasal smell rather than taste. I do see another paper from at least some of the same authors here, but it's not clear at all that the literature favors metallic as a basic taste. I recommend removal.-- 0x0077BE ( talk) 21:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I notice that Savouriness redirects here, but the article is apparently about only a subset of savoury tastes. I think it would be nice to say a little more about the superset and to clarify the difference between the two concepts with examples. Otherwise it looks a bit like redirecting colour to yellow. 220.246.134.45 ( talk) 11:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I added the section "Concerns and controversies of MSG" for educational benefits but also to provide balance, as well as a neutral point of view, so the article doesn't appear to be an advertisement. I have some more to add but this is a start. Otr500 ( talk) 17:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
MSG also has a strong synergistic effect with disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate, which are found in meat, fish, vegetables, and mushrooms. These substances are almost tasteless in the absence of MSG, but addition of even a small quantity of MSG to food that contains these nucleotides produces an umami that is as much as six or eight fold greater than that to be expected from the quantity of MSG added. Not surprisingly, small quantities of the nucleotides have been added to MSG to create an enhanced source of umami.
"Umami has a mild but lasting aftertaste that is difficult to describe." Is this sentence necessary? I can understand that being a loanword from Japanese, there's the sense that we are encountering something that is "new" and which we can "explain" (i.e. by previously known concepts), but there's nothing new in the perception of this taste, only in its naming. It's difficult to describe umami, but how do you describe salty? Or sweet? How do you describe red? Umami, just like all tastes or basic objects of perceptions, is beyond description. You can point towards it, describe when, where or how it is perceived, but you cannot describe it. I think it's an unnecessary sentence there. -- 85.64.187.196 ( talk) 17:28, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone here have the expertise to add a section on genetic variation in the ability to taste umami? If not, I could probably do this; I'm a geneticist but of plants and fungi, not humans, but I should be able to understand the scientific papers on genetics of umami tasting. Declaration of personal interest: I think this section is significant because I'm a non-taster. Please post on my talk page if you think this is worthwhile. OldSpot61 ( talk) 16:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
"umami has no translation"
But the lead paragraph mentions its translation ("savoriness").
In fact, why isn't the main title of this English Wikipedia page "Savoriness"?
151.151.16.10 ( talk) 21:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Then why do all references to savory redirect to this page? Also why, if savory is the broader - and roughly 700 years older - term, is it being redirected to a more specific subcategory of itself?
The definition of umami sounds like someone reinvented wheel, only 30% smaller. With an "untranslatable" Japanese name. This page should be rewritten, with umami itself being a part of an article about savory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.67.140 ( talk) 11:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Umami is a marketing term and the actual closest english translation of the term is "good taste," not "savoriness." This article is full of factual errors and presents half-truths as fact.
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I'm moving this page to Umami because Umami is the much more commonly used spelling. It gets 23,200 google hits and Umame gets only 917 [1] Nohat 02:11, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)
It also doesn't say much for the spelling "umame" for the fact that 8 of the top 10 google hits for it are Wikipedia or Wikipedia mirrors. [2] Nohat 03:56, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)
If I'm reading the article correctly, this isn't actually a taste in and of itself, but rather, a perception of the intensity of a taste.
So can it really be considered a separate flavor sensation at all?
I propose translating umami as zesty. And I claim there are six tastes, not five, oil being one of the six. lysdexia 16:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
To me umami does not taste zesty at all, its quite mellow, buy some MSG at an asian food market and see for yourself.
All the literature I've read suggests that its a basic taste, with its own taste receptors, and is not 'intensity' or 'zest'. I've never heard of taste receptors for oil. Maybe you could cite some research that supports your claims, since I can't find any.
-- Johnkarp 00:17, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If umami is "considered basic" in Chinese and Japanese cuisine, then how can it have been "discovered" in 1907? The second statement implies that umami had not been much noticed by anyone, anywhere until 1907 -- and in conjunction, the two statments suggest that Umami was discovered by Kikunae Ikeda and, in the following 100 years, became so incredibly popular in Chinese and Japaneese cooking that it gained widespread acknowledgement as a fifth basic taste.
For all I know, something like that may be the case, but I am skeptical. Surly the taste was "discovered" by Japanese and Chinese cooks long ago, and then later formally or scientifically described as one of the five basic tastes by Kikunae Ikeda. Could someone who knows more than me about this clarify this article? Solemnavalanche 06:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Addendum: after some basic Wikipedia research, I realized that both I and the article were mistaken. "Umami" was not discovered in 1907; monosodium glutamate was. I've fixed the error. Solemnavalanche 07:56, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The only cited link for this miracle new scientific discovery appears to be from a MSG Industry Pressure Group, spewing pro da about how MSG is really safe after all, honest guv. I'm not sure it's a reliable link at all. 83.244.149.133 12:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed "5 basic tastes" to 7 because that's what it says in the general Basic Tastes article. -- Coolbho3000 12:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
"The researchers called 'taste-mGluR4'." is not a complete sentence.
I've just edited the sentence. Roaming27 05:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the part: "The discovery of the [umami] receptor is interesting especially since the receptor for bitter has not yet been identified." This for two reasons: I could not find any reference to this fact in the wikipedia basic tastes main article, and there were no outside referece to this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.214.3.201 ( talk)
i re-deleted the part saying that the bitter receptor has not been identified as it says that it has been in the basic tastes main article under bitter. I know this isn't the most accurate way of comparing things, so if anyone can check whether there is proof that the bitter receptor has been discovered that would be helpful. Though on the otherhand it's best to leave it out altogether as its not relevant to the article and why is it interesting to people looking at unami? It suggests that bitter is a more important taste
T2R receptors are sweet taste receptors. -unsigned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.91.47 ( talk) 13:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
The T2R receptor is for bitter, according to this on cell.com [3] According to this on nature.com [4], umami is monosodium glutamate. Since everybody has heard of MSG, and since there are lot of myths about it (foodies claim to dislike it, while claiming to love umami) it seems this fact should be featured more prominently on the page. 69.203.73.99 ( talk) 22:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
When I wrote 'rv to version by 70.44.196.93' in my recent edit summary of the main umami page, I meant 'rv to version by 82.214.3.201'. Sorry. -- PhiJ 21:53, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The two paragraphs of 'Negative effects' are lifted wholesale from the Excitotoxicity article. The negative effects of glutamate aren't really relevant to an article about the sensation of its flavor, so I've replaced them with a single sentance that just acknowleges that there are negative effects. -- Dcfleck 17:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Uh oh, hrm there seems to be a discrepency and I didn't realize it was removed seriously, BUT this information is new to wikipedia and it needs a home. I'd like to find out where it goes rather than removing it from the books completely. Klichka ( talk) 08:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
A New Taste Sensation. TfB ( talk) 23:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
on huitlacoche, check (if u can read spanshit) [5] pinchi ranchero,-- kiddo ( talk) 00:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Twice in this article on umami Adenosine TriPhosphate is implicated as a neurotransmitter. While ATP is of great importance in the cell, leave the cell it does not. Especially not to communicate with other cells in the body. I guess then my question would be: WTF? JMcCarthy53 ( talk) 22:47, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Purinergic receptors have now been characterised, which respond to ATP ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADP_receptor) 59.101.184.123 ( talk) 08:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be worth mentioning in the article the notion of kokutai or national characteristics ideology. There are academics in Japan that spew propaganda that Japanese are a unique race. They will list examples such as having different intestines than Westerners (so they do not digest meat the same way), having different brains due to using kanji (Chinese) characters and having a fundamentally different temperment from Westerners becuase they live in a mushi atsui (hot and humid) climate.
Saying that the Japanese have a taste that Westerners don't have and so one must use the word umami is falling into the kokutai ideology. Umami is a savouriness with a Japanese PR team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.188.131 ( talk) 05:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Or maybe Nihonjinron is more relevant here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.155.188.131 ( talk) 06:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The claim that "umami" is a traditional concept/flavor in Japan (or "generally recognized") should be demonstrated by finding sources older than Ikeda (e.g., secondary sources about Japanese culture in the 19th century, such as Lafcadio Hearn).
This article and the one on savoriness read like infomercials from Ajinomoto, the Japanese company that manufactures MSG and has been promoting glutamates as "natural" for the past couple of decades. We see zero mention of risks or adverse effects, but even salt (a well-known naturally occurring substance) can be dangerous in certain quantities or under specific conditions.
According to a Japanese friend, Ajinomoto changed the name of their product from ""kagaku tyo^miryo^" (chemical condiment or seasoning) to "umami tyo^miryo^" during the past 20-25 years, suggesting that they are motivated to spin "umami" as universal and traditional.
I flagged the claim "generally recognized" in the lead, because the page on taste mentions a wide variety of gustatory sensations, suggesting that here is no definitive consensus on "five". Martindo ( talk) 01:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This page presents confused and confusing claims about the "long history" of umami. Even in Japan, the flavor was only identified 100 years ago by Ikeda (who should not be relied on too heavily, because he was eventually biased by his financial interests). If there was no word in common use -- and if the average person in most countries doesn't name "savory" as a specific "basic taste" -- then the claim of "generally recognized" is subjective and probably POV.
I would also like to see changes made to the basic tastes page, but first let's see what kind of consensus can be hashed out here. The page on traditional Chinese medicine mentions five basic tastes in passing. If I recall correctly, the fifth is spicy/pungent, not "savory". So, any references to "Eastern civilizations" agreeing on umami is grandiose if not inaccurate. Martindo ( talk) 02:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani reverted a few recent changes with comment "+Japanese and Chinese-specific information about this term of East Asian origin".
I object to this on many levels. First, not just the aspect mentioned in the comment were reverted, but other good changes were undone.
Secondly, the only information added was a Chinese translation which is irrelevant not just to the subject matter, but also to the etymology of the term, which is a Japanese loanword. The Chinese translation adds no useful information to this article, and is as relevant as translations in any other language would be. 205.228.108.185 ( talk) 01:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Badagnani, you have done it again. Can we please talk about it here? 122.26.33.28 ( talk) 21:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was not to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 06:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Umami → Savoriness — I have NEVER heard the term "Umami" used outside of a soy sauce advertisement. As far as I can tell, this term was introduced to the English speaking world as part of a soy sauce PR campaign. I would suggest that keeping this article here, under this non-English name, is providing free advertising for this firm, by spreading the use of their promotional neologism. I would suggest moving this page to Savoriness (already a redirect for this article), in the interests of non-promotion, using English titles and Calling a spade a spade. If "Savoriness" isn't a perfect English translation of this invented term, find a better translation! There are many terms that do not translate perfectly between languages. Wuh Wuz Dat 16:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Molecular comparison of various extracts from Yeast, Citrus, propolis etc and more....
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:51, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Why exactly is it that the English Wikipedia uses a Japanese loanword as the main topic article of a sense of taste which the majority of all native English speakers know as "savory"? Never in my life have I heard the word "umami", until finding this page here. Why go about using a loanword when there's a suitable enough English word already? PaZuZu 13:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Just for reference, there has been a bit of a discussion of this issue over on the basic taste talk page (which has now been merged with taste - the link is to an archive of the page). -- PhiJ 16:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
If Umami is the same as 鮮味 in Chinese, then I must strongly, strongly emphasise that Umami is NOT the same as savoury. 鮮味 is NOT the same as savoury. It is much more than that. 鮮味 comes from a taste description palette that is not used at all in western mentality. 鮮味 includes a kind of freshness to flavour, lightness to flavour, and a kind of sensual experience that Chinese would call clarity and purity of taste. -- 71.146.2.156 ( talk) 01:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest an English translation for the word. I believe savoury works very well, from reading it. The issue in the original post, a non-English word among English words, should be addressed. It is not that loanwords are not a positive, it is that the top words, Sweetness, Bitterness, Sourness, Saltiness, are words that English speaking people can read and understand. If you see "Sourness", you can taste it. "Umami" as a descriptor does not work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.250.38 ( talk) 03:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
This is the actual official word. Take it up with scientists/researchers if you don't like it, not a wikipedia talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.160.74 ( talk) 05:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 09:44, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
the extracts, especially from
-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:04, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
with bamboo shoot (optional) -- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It can not be denied that the dishes of the above three in conbination with the bamboo shoot are very delicious. Why not to extract their brothes-- 222.64.215.115 ( talk) 10:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The proper Japanese Kanji for umami taste is うま味. This is how professor Ikeda wrote it in his description to distinguish umami basic taste from good taste that is 旨味. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Savouriness redirects here, yet there is no explanation about how these two terms are related. I believe whenever there is a redirect, the redirected term is supposed to feature in bold in the lead (see WP:R#PLA). Here it is barely even mentioned in the article.
I am not an expert in the subject matter, but this is Wikipedia, not Nerdopedia. It is supposed to explain stuff in an accessible way. If 99% of people cannot distinguish the concepts of savouriness and umami, and only a small number of umamologists understand the difference, then we should say so in the lead. On the other hand, if the two concepts are so different, then surely we should have two articles - and still explain the relationship between the two.
Thanks. 221.47.185.2 ( talk) 08:27, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The section of umami receptors in the stomach was erased because it did not seem relevant to umami taste itself. This would be more appropriate to discuss on a different topic such us the physiological effect of nutrients in the gastrointestinal tract. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 07:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
The term umami was born from the scientific contribution of doctor Kikunea Ikeda who not only proposed for the first time the existence of a fifth basic taste but also isolated glutamate as the component of seaweed responsible for this taste. The term savoriness came later when there was a need to translate the concept of umami and was borrowed from savory. Savory contains a more general meaning that umami because it does not specifically refers only to the fifth basic taste but the overall taste of a dish. Since umami was recognized as the scientific term to described the fifth basic taste it has been widely used in the scientific and gastronomic community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amtsga ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me? "the term savoriness came later...?" Are you kidding me? According to Merriam-Webster dictionary-the term was first used in the 1970s! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/umami
Any real study of the development of this term will show that the term "savory" and "savoriness" have been in use since way before Mr. Ikeda was even a twinkle in his father's eye! Even a simple understanding of the development of the term "savoriness" shows that the term has been in wide use since the Roman Republic and before (Middle English savure, from Old French savoure, past participle of savourer, to taste, from Late Latin sapōrāre, from Latin sapor, flavor.)
I can't believe that if the vast majority of the population (both within the scientific/gastronomic community and without) use the far older and far more widely accepted term "savory" to describe a taste phenomenon, Wikipedia should be so politically correct as to accept "umami" as the new standard/term just because the "First Umami International Symposium" says it is so! "Officially recognized?" By whom? And under what authority? Said symposium alone (whose sole stated purpose was to do just that?) What a crock!
The title of this article should be "Savory" and "Umami" should redirect here, not the other way around. 60.38.117.173 ( talk) 01:42, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/savory#ixzz1NPykmwf5
Indeed: where is Umami in the above dictionary entry? If it is an "officially recognized term," shouldn't dictionaries do what Wikipedia now preposterously does and "correct" the "misconception" (held by 99% of the world's population, no less!) that the actual term is "umami" and not "savory?" Merriam-Webster states that "umami" means "savoriness" but "savory" doesn't yet mean "umami!"
freedictionary.com states that, far from being "officially recognized," it is "sometimes" used to identify a fifth taste group: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/umami
and there's NOTHING at all about "umami" at Houghton Mifflin: http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/?s=umami
Ha! Another attempt for PC-ness to trump fact here at Wikipedia. 60.38.117.173 ( talk) 01:46, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree with other posts on this page that "savoriness" should be the page name. Notwithstanding, I don't understand the first paragraph's emphasis on the use of kana for "umami". I've not read Ikeda-sensei's white paper wherein the term was coined, but i can guarantee that 甘み and 甘味 are commonly-used orthographies to render "umami", meaning the savory taste of glutamates, with kanzi. "Umai", the stem from which the compound word "umami" is drawn, can be spelt many different ways, so the assertion that kanzi cannot be used for the "uma" in "umami", because 旨味 (also read "umami") has a different meaning than the flavour, is incorrect. The text should be changed to delete the unnecessary introductory plug for Ikeda-sensei, and the Japanese rendering should be updated to reflect the commonly-used all-kanzi rendering of "umami", 甘味. It is simply mistaken to say that only うま味 can be used. 74.192.195.94 ( talk) 08:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator - non-admin close. Miracle Pen ( talk) 12:05, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Umami →
Umami (taste) –. The name of the title would be more clear because without the added word "taste" there is no meaning to those not familiar with "Umami", which is supposedly one of "five basic
tastes: sweetness, bitterness, sourness, saltiness, and umami." The Japanese loan word would be more meaningful with (taste) added, especially since this is the "English Wikipedia".
Otr500 (
talk)
04:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
This article needs serious work and I will support any editor wishing to take a stab at corrections. original research like, " popularly referred to as savoriness" needs to be addressed, since not one of the 5 references address this.
I find it appalling and ridiculous that a very common word, used in both AmE and BrE, be redirected to an uncommon, and relatively new (we are not in Asia or Japan), scientific word. Some of the references for the article infer authority in defining the word ( "You say savory, I say umami"), but I can not find where the "senior technical editor", Frances Katz, is a renown expert in the field of umami or that he is a doctor or scientist. There was an explanation in his article that makes some sense, "...identification of a protein-based savory flavor...".
I am still trying to connect that umami could be a technical or scientific synonym for savor, savory (savoury), or savoriness. To state that umami is savoriness is to suggest that something with the right amount of salt, sugar, spices, etc., but containing no umami, could not be savory. Try this example out, "That first cup of coffee this morning was so good I umamied every drop". I could have "savored" every drop except Wikipedia allowed the meaning to be changed. Umami will not become a common use word to replace savory and attempts to do so need to be reverted. A name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) should be explored. Otr500 ( talk) 01:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. Then you agree with my comments that the article needs work and the improper redirects corrected? Your reply is exactly what my concern is about. I may have to try dashi to to experience "true unami" but I do not have to consume unami to experience savoriness. Would you agree that food does not have to contain unami to be mouthwatering, delicious, and savory? If you agree with this then the words in question; savory, savoriness, etc... are improperly redirected to unami. My example that included coffee is to show that the redirected word "savory", as the redirects as well as parts of the article implies, are interchangeable and not synonyms and I will argue this to the 10th degree. Your reference, [19] (number 8,) lists savouriness (savoury) twice, good flavor once, delicious (and savoury), deliciousness, the Japanese word for perfection, or the fifth taste as it relates to food, and as a distinct taste, as evidence that there are many words used to describe umami. There was no comment but I still feel the suggested name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) is more appropriate to Wikipedia. Otr500 ( talk)
I figured exploring would be better than attaching a lot of tags of which may be sure to come without improvements. I am not arguing that there is not a taste called "unami". I haven't looked and you may be an expert, but re-read the article and my concerns. This is an encyclopedia for learning. If I do not know something I look it up. When I find the information it must be written so I can comprehend it. Here is an example: "You'll never know the taste unless you try non-artificial genuine fresh dashi". If someone tries dashi, finds it delectable, but does not know about the word "unami", then they can not possibly know that they have experienced unami, even though they did. The English language has thousands of words that can be used to help a reader understand the experience of unami so the editor must find some of these words that will make the article and definition more clear. Redirecting a common word (words) to allow for exposure of this scientific word means the title is not clear. This is why I suggested exploring a title change to "Umami (taste)", or "Umami (sense of taste)" and the proper category placements. You stated, "Savoriness is not an equivalent word for the loan word umami", and I agree but the definition, along with the redirects, beg to differ. Umami is a loanword from the Japanese umami meaning "pleasant savory taste". The subject is "taste" and the words pleasant savory modify this. Help me out and see if some changes can be made to make the article easier to understand for the general population. You state that I don't understand so help me, and others. Lets not forget the rules concerning original research such as popularly referred. I have stated concerns and I can tag all these or someone can help me out since I do not "understand". You stated, "I think umami is a part of savoriness", and this may be true but considering the redirects it is inferred that unami is savoriness and I disagree. Unami is a taste right? It may be a savory taste but still a taste. There would be argument that one may not find unami savory. Salty is salty, regardless of the likes or dislikes of someone experiencing the taste, and the same with sweet, bitter etc...
"The sensation of umami is due to the detection of the carboxylate anion of glutamate.", so I looked these up. They are glutamates and glutamic acid (natural) and are responsible for the umami taste. According to Kikunae Ikeda umami has an "ineffable but undeniable flavor...". Whew! this means that there are not enough words to give meaning to umami since the definition of ineffable is, incapable of being expressed or described in words or inexpressible. If this is true then someone has their work cut out for them for we now have a new 5th taste that can not be described or defined but some members of the scientific community support.
Multiple users have made overwhelming arguments to remove "savory=umami" equivalencies from this article yet they persist...to the detriment and confusion of all readers. I just finished reading the main entry and was so confused I came to this section to find out what the truth was. Clearly, English lexicographers do not see the common usage of "savory" being related to umami. That day may come. But until then this ENCYCLOPEDIA entry needs to stick to commonly understood meanings of words or else put the words with newly made up meanings in "quotations" <-- like that. And that needs to be done immediately. N0w8st8s ( talk) 20:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)n0wa8st8s
Who is German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen? According to the article Glutamic acid he "discovered and identified" the substance in 1866, 41 years before Kikunae Ikeda but there is no mention of this. There is also no mention of Saburosuke Suzuki II and the company Ajinomoto Co., Inc. [1] [2] that he founded to market monosodium glutamate (MSG) with Kikunae Ikeda as a partner. Otr500 ( talk)
The lead section needs to be expanded following the guidelines. A paragraph of a section that is farther down under "Discovery of umami taste" might be better in the lead or higher up at any rate.
I just think that adding "taste" or "sense of taste" will give understanding to the word. I do not mind editing the article but I am working on the "grasp" if you know what I mean. I live in Louisiana, in the Cajun heartland, so I understand the importance of enhancing taste. We use a seasoning called Tony Chachere's Creole seasoning that contains wheat, soy, and/or milk, along with salt, red pepper, black pepper, spiced chili powder (a mixture with chili peppers, other spices, salt and garlic powder), and garlic on many dishes and we also use a Cajun roux. I understand about the chicken stock very well. We use beef and chicken bouillon cubes that contains monosodium glutamate and wheat, and we also use gyoza sauce. I love certain Japanese as well as Chinese dishes because of the fantastic taste except we don't eat rice not smothered in gravy.
I have been researching and have to check the reliability of references. One of the references concerning Saburosuke Suzuki II is from the Ajinomoto Co., Inc web site (history section) and I wanted to find corroborating information. I also found one reference on German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen but a lot of information is on non-acceptable and mirror sites. This will take a while because I am working on a few things already and I would like there to be an article on "Savory" (or savoriness). If I do edit and there is a mistake (since I still breath I am good at that) or something is wrong either correct it or take it out. There will be no edit war with collaboration and we can discuss reasoning and adding it back or not on the talk page. The discussed, "Western food scientists are divided about whether it really exists or not", is an opposing view and is actually very important for the article for NPOV. It is not relevant why they disagree but if this can be found with a source that is all the better and will prevent a tag. "Western" sources being cited is also good. I have found one from "Colorado State University [3] that should have relevant information. Dr. Paul Breslin [4] is a sensory geneticist at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia is involved in studies of Umami. I will put a hidden note on the article that collaboration is underway for improvements which might possibly stem any fly-by tagging. Otr500 ( talk) 17:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
"Oda Mari", I think "Umami (taste) would be better than the current title. If there are no objections, and since you "don't mind changing the article name", I would suggest this would be a major improvement. Otr500 ( talk) 16:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
It can be done that way or with no objections (none so far) can be boldly changed. If someone objects (or reverts) then it can go to "REQMOVE". I am not proficient at doing this and the redirects but can try. Otr500 ( talk) 00:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I will attempt to seek a name change.
I'm confused on when or why Umami was formed and what it replaced and why it replaced it. What is the story behind all this anyway? I never learned about Umami in school (it was a while ago) and have only known savoury. I have seen this huge uproar on Wikipedia about savoury vs. Umami, or even on the word Umami itself being acceptable as a loan word. This whole debate, its defenders and its attackers, is baffling. Something so polarizing is amazing! Where did this come from?!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.229.247 ( talk) 03:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
The Umami entry has stirred some discussion. Perhaps a the the wording below could help the understanding of umami
Taste is a characteristic of chemical compositions and associated with food. (However, non foods have tastes too!). Specifically taste is a result of in impulse from a specific receptor in the nervous system. Formerly, tastes where classified as salty, sour, bitter, or sweet which are attributed to different “taste” receptor cells. Today there is a fifth taste called savoriness and sometimes referred to umami (a Japenese word roughly meaning savory). Technically, in order to truly be classified as a specific taste, a specific chemical receptor must be identified that triggers the taste. In the case of umami, the sense of the taste is a result of more than one mechanism and receptor cell, but as such is still identified as a unique taste. The chemical activity resulting in the umami taste is associated with L-glutamate (in acidic and salt forms). ( Brand, J.G. “Receptor and Transduction Processes for Umami Taste.” The Journal of Nutrition. jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/942.full.pdf 2000. WEB. 12 Sept 2011.
Li, Xiaodng. “T1R resceptors mediate mammalian sweet and umami taste.” American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Vol. 90 no. 3. Sept 2009. http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/733S.short. WEB. 12 Sept 2011.)
Taste receptors are located inside the taste buds which are found in the tongue, soft palate, upper esophagus, and epiglottis...
This just a thought that may help in clarifying and validating umami as a test. Yes, there appears to be scientific proof of a specific taste mechanism for umami which earn it the 5th taste classification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TexasBruin ( talk • contribs) 21:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I only heard of Umami recently, and I came to this article looking for clarification. I don't find it very helpful. There seems in fact to be a controversy, not referred to in the article, over whether Umami is a basic 'taste' at all: for example see this: http://obscurearchives.stupidquestion.net/umami.html The fact (if it is a fact) that the tongue has specific receptors for Umami does not prove that it is a taste in the same sense as sweet, salty, sour and bitter. On the other hand, the fact that a taste is difficult to describe doesn't mean it isn't really a taste, because ultimately any sensation can only be exemplified, not described. But in the case of Umami there seems to be a real difficulty in giving an example of a 'pure' Umami taste. Some say it is the taste of monosodium glutamate, while others deny that MSG has a taste at all. It's all very confusing. 86.185.113.170 ( talk) 14:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC) Added: I bought some MSG to try it for myself. I would describe it (taken neat on the tongue) as tasting like a weak meat extract - slightly salty and not very pleasant. 109.158.44.140 ( talk) 19:42, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
"the resulting taste intensity is higher than the sum of both ingredients." "the umami taste sensation of those ingredients mixed together surpasses the taste of each one alone." 66.26.95.207 ( talk) 23:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
This is the English version of WIKIPEDIA. Umami is NOT an English word or concept. "Savoriness" is the appropriate word for one of the basic tastes familiar to "foodies" or gourmets, it should be discussed in an article of its own. LAWinans ( talk) 22:55, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Agreed, I think "Savoriness" should be the title of the article, because of this being the English language Wikipedia. Also, I feel there is a lot of bias in the article, as if a proponent of Umami and of the japanese spelling wrote it. It makes mention of Umami being the most common name for savoriness in other languages like Spanish, which as a native speaker I can guarantee you it is not. Alan MB ( talk) 09:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
What can you tell me in view of [20]? -- kmath ( talk) 23:01, 11 February 2012 (UTC) ref: Huitlacoche
From what I know, the traditional Korean word for umami is gamchilmat (감칠맛). This taste description wasn't that common in the past, so to speak. Komitsuki ( talk) 17:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Indeed. Go find a Japanese person over age 40 who remembers using "umami" frequently in his or her childhood. This term has been promoted as part of the rebranding of Ajinomoto which has redefined MSG as a "natural flavor in itself" rather than a "flavor enhancer" (technically a drug, because it claims to change perception). Martindo ( talk) 23:22, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
In the intro to the article, "metallic" is cited as a taste. I went through and fixed the citation only to discover that when I read it, the article actually describes metallic taste as being a consequence of the retronasal smell rather than taste. I do see another paper from at least some of the same authors here, but it's not clear at all that the literature favors metallic as a basic taste. I recommend removal.-- 0x0077BE ( talk) 21:41, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I notice that Savouriness redirects here, but the article is apparently about only a subset of savoury tastes. I think it would be nice to say a little more about the superset and to clarify the difference between the two concepts with examples. Otherwise it looks a bit like redirecting colour to yellow. 220.246.134.45 ( talk) 11:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
I added the section "Concerns and controversies of MSG" for educational benefits but also to provide balance, as well as a neutral point of view, so the article doesn't appear to be an advertisement. I have some more to add but this is a start. Otr500 ( talk) 17:20, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
MSG also has a strong synergistic effect with disodium inosinate and disodium guanylate, which are found in meat, fish, vegetables, and mushrooms. These substances are almost tasteless in the absence of MSG, but addition of even a small quantity of MSG to food that contains these nucleotides produces an umami that is as much as six or eight fold greater than that to be expected from the quantity of MSG added. Not surprisingly, small quantities of the nucleotides have been added to MSG to create an enhanced source of umami.
"Umami has a mild but lasting aftertaste that is difficult to describe." Is this sentence necessary? I can understand that being a loanword from Japanese, there's the sense that we are encountering something that is "new" and which we can "explain" (i.e. by previously known concepts), but there's nothing new in the perception of this taste, only in its naming. It's difficult to describe umami, but how do you describe salty? Or sweet? How do you describe red? Umami, just like all tastes or basic objects of perceptions, is beyond description. You can point towards it, describe when, where or how it is perceived, but you cannot describe it. I think it's an unnecessary sentence there. -- 85.64.187.196 ( talk) 17:28, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone here have the expertise to add a section on genetic variation in the ability to taste umami? If not, I could probably do this; I'm a geneticist but of plants and fungi, not humans, but I should be able to understand the scientific papers on genetics of umami tasting. Declaration of personal interest: I think this section is significant because I'm a non-taster. Please post on my talk page if you think this is worthwhile. OldSpot61 ( talk) 16:49, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
"umami has no translation"
But the lead paragraph mentions its translation ("savoriness").
In fact, why isn't the main title of this English Wikipedia page "Savoriness"?
151.151.16.10 ( talk) 21:51, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Then why do all references to savory redirect to this page? Also why, if savory is the broader - and roughly 700 years older - term, is it being redirected to a more specific subcategory of itself?
The definition of umami sounds like someone reinvented wheel, only 30% smaller. With an "untranslatable" Japanese name. This page should be rewritten, with umami itself being a part of an article about savory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.67.140 ( talk) 11:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Umami is a marketing term and the actual closest english translation of the term is "good taste," not "savoriness." This article is full of factual errors and presents half-truths as fact.