Not to get too attached to my own edits - I'm the one who wrote most of this article - but I'm not sure why the discussion of Ultimecia's relative unpopularity as a character was considered "baldly POV." I didn't say I thought she was a bad villain; I said that she was unpopular, that she received very little characterization, and that the game was widely criticized for its lack of a compelling villain, all of which are objectively true. The fan reaction to Ultimecia seems like a valid and relevant thing to discuss. Having read over the paragraph in the history, the only part I'd consider possibly POV is the statement that "Ultimecia was a major disappointment," which could be revised to "many fans considered Ultimecia a major disappointment" or something similar.
So - could the information from that paragraph be restored while removing any apparent bias? I don't want to just revert to my version of the article without hearing some other opinions, so I open it up here. 68.226.239.73
A while ago, I redirected this article back to the main Final Fantasy VIII article, because I didn't see that there was really enough to justify a seperate entry. As things currently stand, there's certainly a good deal of information here now, but I'm not really sure how much of it really qualifies as encyclopedic. I removed an entire paragraph of completely inappropriate POV pushing, and now the article really doesn't consist of much more than the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory. Now, I've always been something of a proponent of that particular theory, but I don't kid myself that it's anything more than base fanwank, and while I can justify mentioning the theory as part of discussing the fan community of the game, I'm skeptical that an indepth, pro/con outline of the thing is something we should be including here. On the other hand, it's a well-written summary, so I'm hesitant to just cut it entirely. But if all we can come up with for this article is fannish editorializing and (admittedly well-written) theorizing, I don't see what the point is, really. Maybe we should move it over to the Final Fantasy wiki linked from the main Final Fantasy article? – Seancdaug 23:39, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Alright, so I did some digging. A note about the near-mythical "official Square confirmation" that Rinoa was not Ultimecia that was supposedly available on Final Fantasy Online. First of all, if we're going to cite something like this, we really need to link to the source. After quite a bit of digging, I was finally able to turn up an external link to here. It's not a letter from a Square employee. It's a refutation of the idea by, as far as I can, a fan who claims to be reasonably well connected. Which, I want to be clear, I have no problem with: it makes a decent case, and it might well be worth linking to, anyway. The idea that it was a letter from Square seems to stem from the fact that the author claims to have spoken to a Japanese designer of the game, who denies the connection. Now, I'm personally not interested in whether or not the writer was telling the truth or not, and I have no real reason to doubt him. But, even so, this is quite clearly not a credible source for an encyclopedia. It's third-hand information, first of all ("he said she said he said..."), and we've got no information on who this employee is, or why his or her words should be taken as reliable. There's a rather substantial credibility gap here, and the information itself is probably not even notable. It is, after all, fan speculation, and we have gone to (IMO) great lengths to point that out. That it's not "official" should, really, be blindingly obvious. The frequent attempts to inject this dubious "official" denial into the article is somewhat pointless, and, I think, risks bringing Wikipedia into the sort of fan debate that can never be effectively NPOV. So I removed the note. Now, if I am mistaken, and if there is, in fact, another letter that is actually verifiable, then there might be a case for restoring the information. But if this is the case, can we please have some sort of external weblink as a reference, guys? – Seancdaug 19:14, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
So, uh, can anyone besides the person who put it in the article confirm or deny this buisness about playing "Eyes on Me" on the piano in Ultimecia's castle to unlock a "hidden guardian?" I certainly don't remember doing any such thing, and I did get all the party's abilities unlocked - but maybe I've just forgotten. I did a bit of digging on Google, and none of the walkthroughs I've looked at mention this. 68.226.239.73
Hey, folks. Sorry for not bringing this up in here sooner, but there's proof now that Rinoa's not Ultimecia, uncovered by myself and a translator named "DarkAngel," owner of the Gunshot Romance website (a Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis English translation site), and a staff member at AdventChildren.net.
The proof comes mainly from the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, which states that Witches (Sorceresses) do not have unlimited lifespans.
Here's a full presentation of my own article on the matter, as posted on RPGamer's Forum: Linkage.
That's the core principle behind the entire theory, cited in every incarnation of the theory since 1999. Remember, Ultimecia lives far into the future, many generations beyond anyone's normal lifespan. For that matter, arguing around this point is stepping outside the realm of reasonable assumption, and ignoring Occam's Razor. Simply arguing around it isn't enough without it being plausible or reasonably assumed. As you say in the new rendering of the article, all the alleged evidence is highly debatable, and in some cases, altogether non-existant.
To properly cite the concept in an encyclopedia venue, it should at least offer not just some information regarding how the belief arose, but point out a flaw in the logic based on information that is currently known, don't you think? If you'd prefer that not be in the body of the article itself, I wouldn't mind putting my article on my website so that it could serve as an external link. There's simply so much information involved in the theory that to even bother citing the concept requires -- for the benefit of readers -- some demonstration of all the evidence for and against the matter.
- Squall
To whoever keeps reinserting this "proof" in the article: please stop. It is not "proof," and, at best, it only refutes a specific form of the theory. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia cannot insert itself into fan debates as some sort of arbiter. It's a fan theory, it's highly unlikely that it was intended by the developers, and it's controversial. If we can't keep neutral on the matter, then we're probably better off losing this article entirely, IMO. – Seancdaug 02:18, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
== Ultimecia/Rinoa == (Found this on List of FFVIII characters and moved here)
There does seem to be strong evidence for this this rumour and you can see where the theroies come from,watch the ending on youtube and you'll see things like Ultimecia imposed on Rinoa etc. If the theme of the game is love then Squall,in this instance does not care what might happen in the future because he is in love now. You have to remember what people ARENT saying i.e the creators and what theyre implying is very strong in Japan culture.
Someone again added that Ultimecia is Rinoa, with so-called evidence. I checked the supposed source, and it came from an editorial in RPGamer.com. Again, this is fancruft/original research. I think I understand that Wikipedia does not allow OR, am I right? And as much as I also believe Ultimecia maybe Rinoa, there is no verifiable source for this. So this is OR, which does not warrant any place in wikipedia, right? 私はBluerfnです 17:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This so called strong evidence is an entire series of assumptions that are so wrong its a joke. The first is that Rinoa is immortal, which is stated in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide published by Square that sorceresses have normal lifespans, Adel wouldn't need a successor if sorceresses are immortal (Ellone is kidnapped because of this in the game). Second is Rinoa's wings going from angel white (there's a lot of emphasis on this in the game) to black, there's no evidence of her being "an evil sorceress" in the game, if you watch the opening video, the wings change as Squall gets injured during the duel. It may be a warning of the fated sorceress fights (Edea and Ultimecia), (Rinoa, if you notice is worried about her powers until Edea tells her about having a knight, and everything changes, she's calmer). The third assumption is that Rinoa's words with Squall about stopping time on the Ragnarok somehow supports this theory, she didn't want to leave Squall and be stuck in space(She even goes with the Esthar officials to do just that to protect people in case she gets possessed, doesn't sound like an evil sorceress does it?). The four assumption is that Rinoa forgets Squall (after becoming Ultimecia) and tries to kill Squall and of course as she's being defeated give him the lecture about time (Rinoa didn't know him in childhood nor does she hate SeeD's (She's in love with the Commander of SeeD, Squall, after all.) The next assumption is that Ultimecia wants to get Squall back through Time Compression (if he's dead from her acts how can she get him back?). Also Ultimecia doesn't have a knight which is why she is assumed to be crazy (Rinoa does have one and so is sane), more importantly Ultimecia is called "she" by Rinoa, and has "hate in her heart" not suiting to Rinoa's free spirit (she doesn't want to alienate people), Ultimecia also tries to kill Rinoa and Squall (no evidence is given to say Rinoa would have continued to use GF's and forgotten her past and Squall). Ultimecia's accent is not present in Rinoa's speech, she spits out words with C's perfectly so where would she have acquired it?. As for the assumption that Ultimecia's castle is in Edea's house (it floats or else why would it have chains keeping it down?) and it matches the opening words of the game of the protagonists being Fated Children. Edea's House is not enterable. The appearance assumption is also wrong (all FF8 women's faces look alike) and what I find most interesting is that Ultimecia has gray hair. The Griever necklace assumption is also shot down because Rinoa doesn't know what is on his ring, and if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF." Two more pieces of evidence are also important, the first is Ultimecia can't be Rinoa or else they can't fight each other in her castle, Ultimecia does't recognize Squall at all (Rinoa would since use of GF's are debatable. In fact Rinoa doesn't seem to be affected by memory loss due to GF use she remembered the Deling City incident and Squall doesn't (In the flower field scene) and Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia twice which would explain Squall's image in Time Compression (Remember past, present and future are all mixed up) and Squall did see Rinoa's possession by Ultimecia through Ellone on Lunar Base and it could be it as simple as he remembering that along with everything at once (Time Compression is sometimes just unexplainable). The second piece of very important evidence is that FF8 is a love story (like fairy tales they have happy endings and Rinoa being evil and crazy beings her out of character context.) If anyone reads the Rinoa Heartilly article and looks at the sources, and reads the articles on Flare Gamer it says that Normura likes Rinoa alot (why have her be the antagonist? Is it too show his liking for the character to have Rinoa supposely become Ultimecia?) By the way Rinoa's alive after Time Compression and the world is safe and Ultimecia is dead after giving her powers to Edea. If Square wanted to make a link between the characters why not have Ultimecia give her powers to Rinoa? (If I might add, not all sorceresses give up there powers in fact all of them except Adel, Ultimecia and Edea (Rinoa is excluded) die without giving up their powers and Rinoa received Edea's powers after Ultimecia gave Rinoa the sorceress embodiment power but Edea has her powers until she goes to the Lunatic Pandora after catching it she gets thrown out and stops being a sorceress and Rinoa receives Edea's sorcery and becomes a sorceress). Lastly, Rinoa can't be Ultimecia for all these reasons and this theory is false. Ultimecia is just a sorceress from the future who is not loved and so created her end herself. Saying that Rinoa is Ultimecia is like saying since no one knows where Necron came from, then I guess he must be Zidane right? -Eileen-
I'm getting rid of original research that is on this Wikipedia article that shouldn't be. It is the cause of many disputes that will probably never end because neither side can be proved or disproved. However, I will be starting a Talk page about all kinds of Final Fantasy theories so it will appear there for analysis. -Eileen-
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Not to get too attached to my own edits - I'm the one who wrote most of this article - but I'm not sure why the discussion of Ultimecia's relative unpopularity as a character was considered "baldly POV." I didn't say I thought she was a bad villain; I said that she was unpopular, that she received very little characterization, and that the game was widely criticized for its lack of a compelling villain, all of which are objectively true. The fan reaction to Ultimecia seems like a valid and relevant thing to discuss. Having read over the paragraph in the history, the only part I'd consider possibly POV is the statement that "Ultimecia was a major disappointment," which could be revised to "many fans considered Ultimecia a major disappointment" or something similar.
So - could the information from that paragraph be restored while removing any apparent bias? I don't want to just revert to my version of the article without hearing some other opinions, so I open it up here. 68.226.239.73
A while ago, I redirected this article back to the main Final Fantasy VIII article, because I didn't see that there was really enough to justify a seperate entry. As things currently stand, there's certainly a good deal of information here now, but I'm not really sure how much of it really qualifies as encyclopedic. I removed an entire paragraph of completely inappropriate POV pushing, and now the article really doesn't consist of much more than the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory. Now, I've always been something of a proponent of that particular theory, but I don't kid myself that it's anything more than base fanwank, and while I can justify mentioning the theory as part of discussing the fan community of the game, I'm skeptical that an indepth, pro/con outline of the thing is something we should be including here. On the other hand, it's a well-written summary, so I'm hesitant to just cut it entirely. But if all we can come up with for this article is fannish editorializing and (admittedly well-written) theorizing, I don't see what the point is, really. Maybe we should move it over to the Final Fantasy wiki linked from the main Final Fantasy article? – Seancdaug 23:39, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Alright, so I did some digging. A note about the near-mythical "official Square confirmation" that Rinoa was not Ultimecia that was supposedly available on Final Fantasy Online. First of all, if we're going to cite something like this, we really need to link to the source. After quite a bit of digging, I was finally able to turn up an external link to here. It's not a letter from a Square employee. It's a refutation of the idea by, as far as I can, a fan who claims to be reasonably well connected. Which, I want to be clear, I have no problem with: it makes a decent case, and it might well be worth linking to, anyway. The idea that it was a letter from Square seems to stem from the fact that the author claims to have spoken to a Japanese designer of the game, who denies the connection. Now, I'm personally not interested in whether or not the writer was telling the truth or not, and I have no real reason to doubt him. But, even so, this is quite clearly not a credible source for an encyclopedia. It's third-hand information, first of all ("he said she said he said..."), and we've got no information on who this employee is, or why his or her words should be taken as reliable. There's a rather substantial credibility gap here, and the information itself is probably not even notable. It is, after all, fan speculation, and we have gone to (IMO) great lengths to point that out. That it's not "official" should, really, be blindingly obvious. The frequent attempts to inject this dubious "official" denial into the article is somewhat pointless, and, I think, risks bringing Wikipedia into the sort of fan debate that can never be effectively NPOV. So I removed the note. Now, if I am mistaken, and if there is, in fact, another letter that is actually verifiable, then there might be a case for restoring the information. But if this is the case, can we please have some sort of external weblink as a reference, guys? – Seancdaug 19:14, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
So, uh, can anyone besides the person who put it in the article confirm or deny this buisness about playing "Eyes on Me" on the piano in Ultimecia's castle to unlock a "hidden guardian?" I certainly don't remember doing any such thing, and I did get all the party's abilities unlocked - but maybe I've just forgotten. I did a bit of digging on Google, and none of the walkthroughs I've looked at mention this. 68.226.239.73
Hey, folks. Sorry for not bringing this up in here sooner, but there's proof now that Rinoa's not Ultimecia, uncovered by myself and a translator named "DarkAngel," owner of the Gunshot Romance website (a Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis English translation site), and a staff member at AdventChildren.net.
The proof comes mainly from the Final Fantasy VIII Ultimania Guide, which states that Witches (Sorceresses) do not have unlimited lifespans.
Here's a full presentation of my own article on the matter, as posted on RPGamer's Forum: Linkage.
That's the core principle behind the entire theory, cited in every incarnation of the theory since 1999. Remember, Ultimecia lives far into the future, many generations beyond anyone's normal lifespan. For that matter, arguing around this point is stepping outside the realm of reasonable assumption, and ignoring Occam's Razor. Simply arguing around it isn't enough without it being plausible or reasonably assumed. As you say in the new rendering of the article, all the alleged evidence is highly debatable, and in some cases, altogether non-existant.
To properly cite the concept in an encyclopedia venue, it should at least offer not just some information regarding how the belief arose, but point out a flaw in the logic based on information that is currently known, don't you think? If you'd prefer that not be in the body of the article itself, I wouldn't mind putting my article on my website so that it could serve as an external link. There's simply so much information involved in the theory that to even bother citing the concept requires -- for the benefit of readers -- some demonstration of all the evidence for and against the matter.
- Squall
To whoever keeps reinserting this "proof" in the article: please stop. It is not "proof," and, at best, it only refutes a specific form of the theory. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia cannot insert itself into fan debates as some sort of arbiter. It's a fan theory, it's highly unlikely that it was intended by the developers, and it's controversial. If we can't keep neutral on the matter, then we're probably better off losing this article entirely, IMO. – Seancdaug 02:18, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
== Ultimecia/Rinoa == (Found this on List of FFVIII characters and moved here)
There does seem to be strong evidence for this this rumour and you can see where the theroies come from,watch the ending on youtube and you'll see things like Ultimecia imposed on Rinoa etc. If the theme of the game is love then Squall,in this instance does not care what might happen in the future because he is in love now. You have to remember what people ARENT saying i.e the creators and what theyre implying is very strong in Japan culture.
Someone again added that Ultimecia is Rinoa, with so-called evidence. I checked the supposed source, and it came from an editorial in RPGamer.com. Again, this is fancruft/original research. I think I understand that Wikipedia does not allow OR, am I right? And as much as I also believe Ultimecia maybe Rinoa, there is no verifiable source for this. So this is OR, which does not warrant any place in wikipedia, right? 私はBluerfnです 17:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This so called strong evidence is an entire series of assumptions that are so wrong its a joke. The first is that Rinoa is immortal, which is stated in the FFVIII Ultimania Guide published by Square that sorceresses have normal lifespans, Adel wouldn't need a successor if sorceresses are immortal (Ellone is kidnapped because of this in the game). Second is Rinoa's wings going from angel white (there's a lot of emphasis on this in the game) to black, there's no evidence of her being "an evil sorceress" in the game, if you watch the opening video, the wings change as Squall gets injured during the duel. It may be a warning of the fated sorceress fights (Edea and Ultimecia), (Rinoa, if you notice is worried about her powers until Edea tells her about having a knight, and everything changes, she's calmer). The third assumption is that Rinoa's words with Squall about stopping time on the Ragnarok somehow supports this theory, she didn't want to leave Squall and be stuck in space(She even goes with the Esthar officials to do just that to protect people in case she gets possessed, doesn't sound like an evil sorceress does it?). The four assumption is that Rinoa forgets Squall (after becoming Ultimecia) and tries to kill Squall and of course as she's being defeated give him the lecture about time (Rinoa didn't know him in childhood nor does she hate SeeD's (She's in love with the Commander of SeeD, Squall, after all.) The next assumption is that Ultimecia wants to get Squall back through Time Compression (if he's dead from her acts how can she get him back?). Also Ultimecia doesn't have a knight which is why she is assumed to be crazy (Rinoa does have one and so is sane), more importantly Ultimecia is called "she" by Rinoa, and has "hate in her heart" not suiting to Rinoa's free spirit (she doesn't want to alienate people), Ultimecia also tries to kill Rinoa and Squall (no evidence is given to say Rinoa would have continued to use GF's and forgotten her past and Squall). Ultimecia's accent is not present in Rinoa's speech, she spits out words with C's perfectly so where would she have acquired it?. As for the assumption that Ultimecia's castle is in Edea's house (it floats or else why would it have chains keeping it down?) and it matches the opening words of the game of the protagonists being Fated Children. Edea's House is not enterable. The appearance assumption is also wrong (all FF8 women's faces look alike) and what I find most interesting is that Ultimecia has gray hair. The Griever necklace assumption is also shot down because Rinoa doesn't know what is on his ring, and if you scan Griever it says "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF." Two more pieces of evidence are also important, the first is Ultimecia can't be Rinoa or else they can't fight each other in her castle, Ultimecia does't recognize Squall at all (Rinoa would since use of GF's are debatable. In fact Rinoa doesn't seem to be affected by memory loss due to GF use she remembered the Deling City incident and Squall doesn't (In the flower field scene) and Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia twice which would explain Squall's image in Time Compression (Remember past, present and future are all mixed up) and Squall did see Rinoa's possession by Ultimecia through Ellone on Lunar Base and it could be it as simple as he remembering that along with everything at once (Time Compression is sometimes just unexplainable). The second piece of very important evidence is that FF8 is a love story (like fairy tales they have happy endings and Rinoa being evil and crazy beings her out of character context.) If anyone reads the Rinoa Heartilly article and looks at the sources, and reads the articles on Flare Gamer it says that Normura likes Rinoa alot (why have her be the antagonist? Is it too show his liking for the character to have Rinoa supposely become Ultimecia?) By the way Rinoa's alive after Time Compression and the world is safe and Ultimecia is dead after giving her powers to Edea. If Square wanted to make a link between the characters why not have Ultimecia give her powers to Rinoa? (If I might add, not all sorceresses give up there powers in fact all of them except Adel, Ultimecia and Edea (Rinoa is excluded) die without giving up their powers and Rinoa received Edea's powers after Ultimecia gave Rinoa the sorceress embodiment power but Edea has her powers until she goes to the Lunatic Pandora after catching it she gets thrown out and stops being a sorceress and Rinoa receives Edea's sorcery and becomes a sorceress). Lastly, Rinoa can't be Ultimecia for all these reasons and this theory is false. Ultimecia is just a sorceress from the future who is not loved and so created her end herself. Saying that Rinoa is Ultimecia is like saying since no one knows where Necron came from, then I guess he must be Zidane right? -Eileen-
I'm getting rid of original research that is on this Wikipedia article that shouldn't be. It is the cause of many disputes that will probably never end because neither side can be proved or disproved. However, I will be starting a Talk page about all kinds of Final Fantasy theories so it will appear there for analysis. -Eileen-