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this article is improving rapidly - good work! some link to Muslim Brotherhood, tarika, and Taliban is probably required, as the disenfranchised ulema in Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, etc., played some role in the rise social and political groups.
Ulama (Plural), Alim (Singular), and all its derivatives with different transliterations and spellings mean Scientist(s) in Arabic. They come from the root: 'ilm', meaning Knowledge. 'Iloom' is then derived from that, which means Science; 'Pursuit of Knowledge'. 'Alim' is then composed of that which means Scientist (Male singular), be advised there is also 'Alimah' which also means Scientist but is in the female singular form. Ulama is then composed of those, and it means Scientists, the final plural form.
These words do not imply in any way shape or form a reference to only Muslim "scholars". How this article derived only the meaning of 'Muslim Scholar of Islam' out of the above Arabic words is far fetched. As a Muslim and Arab who natively speaks Arabic and English, this is a grave mistake. Ulama can be used to refer to any Scientists of any religion or background as it is simply the Arabic word for Scientists. Is anyone editing this article a native speaker of Arabic and English? (Meaning on a native-level.)
If these words are being used specifically in the context of Shi'a Islam to mean different things then it should be stated in the beginning paragraph of the Article. But those words are Arabic and their meanings are Scientist(s), possibly Scholar(s), certainly not 'Muslim Scholars of Islamic Studies'. Unless Wikipedia aims to change the Arabic language, taking Arabic words which mean something quite generally and declaring that it means only one very specific diverging thing is wholly incorrect. Please address this or I will. Thank you. 72.145.129.154 ( talk) 03:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I added them since it enlighted how the Jurist work, one desribed it regardin one issue, the other critizised them -- Striver 03:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
In a recent version of the article, some symbols in the words ulema and Shia did not display properly in my browser. I assume that may be the case with other users, so I have changed to the spelling to an easier transliteration. My apologies to those who wished to improve the transliteration of those words. Pecher Talk 22:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Y'know, I'm not sure that this is fair to our readers. Ulema, without any special characters, is widely used in academic and popular literature. One could probably consider it an English word. Insisting on used the word in characters that mean nothing to 99.9% of the readers is showing off, don't you think? If we had a little box in which we gave it in various characters (Arabic, Persian modified Arabic, Turkish, and transliterations) just ONCE, then any people who were fluent in those languages AND English could check our translation. But for actually finding out who and what the ulema are, "ulema" is just fine. Zora 03:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to/keep at Ulema. — Nightst a llion (?) 10:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Ulema → Ulama – Ulama is a more common transliteration.
This article should be named "Muslim Islamic jurists". Here is my arguments:
Comments? -- Striver 20:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
"Ulema" seems OK as an article title. The word has been used in English for 237 years (source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster). Encyclopedia Britannica and the Library of Congress catalog spell it differently (as "ulama"), but they don't replace it with some other phrase. -- Hoziron 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Somehow Wikipedia seems to have started off with the Turkish term for the clergy -- influence of Bernard Lewis? The Arabic term, ulama, is probably more widespread. However, changing ulema to ulama in every article where it is found is going to be a big job. Is there consensus for a change to the Arabic form, and are there any editors who would help do this? Zora 00:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Because Striver had the bright idea, at one point, to move Ulema to Muslim Islamic jurists, without consulting anyone else. Someone handled this by redirecting the article back to Ulema, which didn't take care of the talk page.
If we decide to change to ulama, someone with mighty admin powers is going to have to straighten out the tangle.
We need to get input from the other editors working on Islam-related articles, lest we be seen as pulling a Striver :) Zora 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to change 'Ulema' to 'Ulama'. 'Ulama' is the more proper Arabic pronunciation and spelling, but it isn't used at all as much as 'ulema' in English, as 'Ulema' is the Turkish, Persian and Urdu versions of the word predominant throughout Turkey, Iran, Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, South East Asia etc. and as most Muslims are from these parts of the world, 'ulema' is a lot more commonly used than 'ulama'. As well as this, even some Arabs (Yemenis, North Africans) pronounce 'Ulama' as 'Ulema', so even Arabs use 'ulema', so clearly there is no need to change anything, as both are just as correct. Besides, one is more likely to come across 'Ulema' than 'ulama'. As for 'Muslim Islamic Jurists' - that's just silly, I'm not even gonna bother with that one... ( Tanzeel 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC))
I was most distressed to find yet another article so effectively Islamised (and by the same culprit Jagged 85). This article provides an obscenely large, but irrelevant section on what is purported to be the history of the 'Ulama/Muslim clerics and scientists. As far as I can make out, it repeats many of the tired, uncorroborated outside of a small circle of academics, claims about the Islamic origins of common and civil law. Now, were this confined to the Wikis on Common Law and Civil law, it wouldn't be so bad. Yet, here, we have a section supposedly about the historic development of the cleric in Islamic history; instead, we get information on the putative Islamic origins of components of both common and civil law. Yes Makdisi is a reputable academic, but should his infinitesimaly small, minority viewpoint on the origins of common law be displayed here? The answer is no - the section on History of the 'Ulama should either contain information strictly about the 'Ulama or should be removed!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.236.9.80 ( talk) 17:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Can we start with etymology of the word, than a history of the concept, etc etc? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Ronhjones (Talk) 21:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Ulema → Ulama — Yes, I see there was already a discussion about this archived below, but the vote was
Of the two who oppose, both assert (without any support) that ulema is more common in English. Except it isn't. The Library of Congress and the Encyclopaedia Britannica both use ulama. Google pulls 3.78m for ulama -wiki versus 2.78m for ulema -wiki. The results show exactly what one would expect: ulema is a regional Turkish and Pakistani use; ulama is the proper Arabic term, more common in English, and used in organizations even in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Turkey.
You'd think the idea of ulema as proper English comes from use under the British Raj or possibly British dealings with Ottoman Turkey, but google.co.uk gives 36,900 pages in the UK for ulama -wiki and only half as may (18k) for ulema -wiki. The page is in the wrong place. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Jagged85, the person who put the problematic material in, has been RFCed and inshallah, will not be disrupting Wikipedia in the future.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 13:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Ulama → Alim — Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 22:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"Ulama in contemporary usage by Muslims refers to the religious elite of scholars at the top of the sectarian hierarchy" – the preceding statement is false. there is no hierarchy, and there is no sectarian fellowship in Islam, this is a biddah and not consistent with the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad According to Muhammad Asad, (1934) a Jewish-born Austro-Hungarian born journalist who reverted to Islam, who wrote extensively in the area of comparative religion, Asad says "it is westerners who identify "theocracy" with the political power exercised by an established church-organization -in their case, the medieval Christian Church and its priestly hierarchy. Islam, on the other hand, does not admit of any "priesthood" or "clergy" and, therefore, of any institution comparable to the Christian Church" (Asad, M., (1934) Islam at the Cross Roads, Arafat Publications, Delhi), . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kali20805 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 21 April 2015
Hi, I have tried to improve the article. Considering the disputable POVs, I have presented information in a neutral way. The main issue was of the definition of Ulama itself so I have created an "Etymology" section which is the most appropriate section and quite helpful for definitions of the word upon which the entire article is based. Here I have presented both the Arabic as well as the widely interpreted meaning of the term. The connection to religion within the Arabic term and the other term not confined to religion and only based on science is focused. At the last section, "Controversial aspects," I have also explained that it is equally important to check the context in which the term 'ulama' is being used because that defines the word itself. Other editors are encourage to provide other reliable sources and content to improve the article. Should you feel the need to discuss for change or improvement please reach me on my talk page. Pixarh ( talk) 16:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
p.s. "History" and "Functions and requirements" can be worked upon to improve better. Pixarh ( talk) 16:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Those lines were not summarizing the material cited. cӨde1+6 LogicBomb! 16:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Let's try and improve this article. Even if I took the hypothetical viewpoint of an Islamic scholar, I would consider large parts of the article as representing blatant, uninformed propaganda. In its current form, it is a disgrace to a community which, over the centuries, has contributed far more to the advancement of science and education than we may imagine from what is going on in many countries today, and from what is sometimes written in Wikipedia. From my point of view, the article has to be rewritten almost from scratch, and furnished with reliable and relevant information. Any of those who discussed this ten years ago still alive and kicking?-- HajjiBaba ( talk) 18:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
This section does not provide any information about the usage of the word in the Quran. There is no quotation provided. Instead, the modern interpretation of the word "alim" is discussed i.e., that a modern definition of "alim" might include other scholars and scientists as well. How could this help our understanding of the ulama? I've therefore deleted the section.-- HajjiBaba ( talk) 04:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@ HajjiBaba: There's a case for mentioning some philosophical controversies as they impacted the ulama, but we shouldn't give the impression that the term ulama normally includes the falasifa. In particular, Hourani doesn't include philosophers in the chapter The Culture of The Ulama. Lapidus' A History of Islamic Societies has a good discussion of the differences between the cultural milieus represented by the ulama and philosophers. Eperoton ( talk) 13:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The designation makes some sense in the Ottoman context, which perhaps influenced the word choice used in the source, but as a general statement I believe it's misleading and doesn't reflect the vast majority of RSs. To the extent that the author meant it as a general statement, I would argue that it is WP:UNDUE. Eperoton ( talk) 16:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
For the definition, I think we should give substantial weight to standard academic references:
Currently, we're giving excessive weight to rather marginal sources, e.g., the Rowman Altamira encyclopedia, which is written by a single author with no academic credentials, the book Islam and Modernity, whose author and publisher I'm not familiar with, and the paper on Ottoman ulema where the tagged expression comes from. Eperoton ( talk) 16:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
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this article is improving rapidly - good work! some link to Muslim Brotherhood, tarika, and Taliban is probably required, as the disenfranchised ulema in Egypt, Turkey, Afghanistan, etc., played some role in the rise social and political groups.
Ulama (Plural), Alim (Singular), and all its derivatives with different transliterations and spellings mean Scientist(s) in Arabic. They come from the root: 'ilm', meaning Knowledge. 'Iloom' is then derived from that, which means Science; 'Pursuit of Knowledge'. 'Alim' is then composed of that which means Scientist (Male singular), be advised there is also 'Alimah' which also means Scientist but is in the female singular form. Ulama is then composed of those, and it means Scientists, the final plural form.
These words do not imply in any way shape or form a reference to only Muslim "scholars". How this article derived only the meaning of 'Muslim Scholar of Islam' out of the above Arabic words is far fetched. As a Muslim and Arab who natively speaks Arabic and English, this is a grave mistake. Ulama can be used to refer to any Scientists of any religion or background as it is simply the Arabic word for Scientists. Is anyone editing this article a native speaker of Arabic and English? (Meaning on a native-level.)
If these words are being used specifically in the context of Shi'a Islam to mean different things then it should be stated in the beginning paragraph of the Article. But those words are Arabic and their meanings are Scientist(s), possibly Scholar(s), certainly not 'Muslim Scholars of Islamic Studies'. Unless Wikipedia aims to change the Arabic language, taking Arabic words which mean something quite generally and declaring that it means only one very specific diverging thing is wholly incorrect. Please address this or I will. Thank you. 72.145.129.154 ( talk) 03:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I added them since it enlighted how the Jurist work, one desribed it regardin one issue, the other critizised them -- Striver 03:51, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
In a recent version of the article, some symbols in the words ulema and Shia did not display properly in my browser. I assume that may be the case with other users, so I have changed to the spelling to an easier transliteration. My apologies to those who wished to improve the transliteration of those words. Pecher Talk 22:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Y'know, I'm not sure that this is fair to our readers. Ulema, without any special characters, is widely used in academic and popular literature. One could probably consider it an English word. Insisting on used the word in characters that mean nothing to 99.9% of the readers is showing off, don't you think? If we had a little box in which we gave it in various characters (Arabic, Persian modified Arabic, Turkish, and transliterations) just ONCE, then any people who were fluent in those languages AND English could check our translation. But for actually finding out who and what the ulema are, "ulema" is just fine. Zora 03:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move to/keep at Ulema. — Nightst a llion (?) 10:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Ulema → Ulama – Ulama is a more common transliteration.
This article should be named "Muslim Islamic jurists". Here is my arguments:
Comments? -- Striver 20:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
"Ulema" seems OK as an article title. The word has been used in English for 237 years (source: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster). Encyclopedia Britannica and the Library of Congress catalog spell it differently (as "ulama"), but they don't replace it with some other phrase. -- Hoziron 14:13, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Somehow Wikipedia seems to have started off with the Turkish term for the clergy -- influence of Bernard Lewis? The Arabic term, ulama, is probably more widespread. However, changing ulema to ulama in every article where it is found is going to be a big job. Is there consensus for a change to the Arabic form, and are there any editors who would help do this? Zora 00:31, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Because Striver had the bright idea, at one point, to move Ulema to Muslim Islamic jurists, without consulting anyone else. Someone handled this by redirecting the article back to Ulema, which didn't take care of the talk page.
If we decide to change to ulama, someone with mighty admin powers is going to have to straighten out the tangle.
We need to get input from the other editors working on Islam-related articles, lest we be seen as pulling a Striver :) Zora 01:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
There is no need to change 'Ulema' to 'Ulama'. 'Ulama' is the more proper Arabic pronunciation and spelling, but it isn't used at all as much as 'ulema' in English, as 'Ulema' is the Turkish, Persian and Urdu versions of the word predominant throughout Turkey, Iran, Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, South East Asia etc. and as most Muslims are from these parts of the world, 'ulema' is a lot more commonly used than 'ulama'. As well as this, even some Arabs (Yemenis, North Africans) pronounce 'Ulama' as 'Ulema', so even Arabs use 'ulema', so clearly there is no need to change anything, as both are just as correct. Besides, one is more likely to come across 'Ulema' than 'ulama'. As for 'Muslim Islamic Jurists' - that's just silly, I'm not even gonna bother with that one... ( Tanzeel 21:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC))
I was most distressed to find yet another article so effectively Islamised (and by the same culprit Jagged 85). This article provides an obscenely large, but irrelevant section on what is purported to be the history of the 'Ulama/Muslim clerics and scientists. As far as I can make out, it repeats many of the tired, uncorroborated outside of a small circle of academics, claims about the Islamic origins of common and civil law. Now, were this confined to the Wikis on Common Law and Civil law, it wouldn't be so bad. Yet, here, we have a section supposedly about the historic development of the cleric in Islamic history; instead, we get information on the putative Islamic origins of components of both common and civil law. Yes Makdisi is a reputable academic, but should his infinitesimaly small, minority viewpoint on the origins of common law be displayed here? The answer is no - the section on History of the 'Ulama should either contain information strictly about the 'Ulama or should be removed!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.236.9.80 ( talk) 17:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
Can we start with etymology of the word, than a history of the concept, etc etc? Faro0485 ( talk) 00:10, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Ronhjones (Talk) 21:50, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Ulema → Ulama — Yes, I see there was already a discussion about this archived below, but the vote was
Of the two who oppose, both assert (without any support) that ulema is more common in English. Except it isn't. The Library of Congress and the Encyclopaedia Britannica both use ulama. Google pulls 3.78m for ulama -wiki versus 2.78m for ulema -wiki. The results show exactly what one would expect: ulema is a regional Turkish and Pakistani use; ulama is the proper Arabic term, more common in English, and used in organizations even in Indonesia, Pakistan, and Turkey.
You'd think the idea of ulema as proper English comes from use under the British Raj or possibly British dealings with Ottoman Turkey, but google.co.uk gives 36,900 pages in the UK for ulama -wiki and only half as may (18k) for ulema -wiki. The page is in the wrong place. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Jagged85, the person who put the problematic material in, has been RFCed and inshallah, will not be disrupting Wikipedia in the future.
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 13:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Ulama → Alim — Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 22:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
"Ulama in contemporary usage by Muslims refers to the religious elite of scholars at the top of the sectarian hierarchy" – the preceding statement is false. there is no hierarchy, and there is no sectarian fellowship in Islam, this is a biddah and not consistent with the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad According to Muhammad Asad, (1934) a Jewish-born Austro-Hungarian born journalist who reverted to Islam, who wrote extensively in the area of comparative religion, Asad says "it is westerners who identify "theocracy" with the political power exercised by an established church-organization -in their case, the medieval Christian Church and its priestly hierarchy. Islam, on the other hand, does not admit of any "priesthood" or "clergy" and, therefore, of any institution comparable to the Christian Church" (Asad, M., (1934) Islam at the Cross Roads, Arafat Publications, Delhi), . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kali20805 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 21 April 2015
Hi, I have tried to improve the article. Considering the disputable POVs, I have presented information in a neutral way. The main issue was of the definition of Ulama itself so I have created an "Etymology" section which is the most appropriate section and quite helpful for definitions of the word upon which the entire article is based. Here I have presented both the Arabic as well as the widely interpreted meaning of the term. The connection to religion within the Arabic term and the other term not confined to religion and only based on science is focused. At the last section, "Controversial aspects," I have also explained that it is equally important to check the context in which the term 'ulama' is being used because that defines the word itself. Other editors are encourage to provide other reliable sources and content to improve the article. Should you feel the need to discuss for change or improvement please reach me on my talk page. Pixarh ( talk) 16:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
p.s. "History" and "Functions and requirements" can be worked upon to improve better. Pixarh ( talk) 16:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Those lines were not summarizing the material cited. cӨde1+6 LogicBomb! 16:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Let's try and improve this article. Even if I took the hypothetical viewpoint of an Islamic scholar, I would consider large parts of the article as representing blatant, uninformed propaganda. In its current form, it is a disgrace to a community which, over the centuries, has contributed far more to the advancement of science and education than we may imagine from what is going on in many countries today, and from what is sometimes written in Wikipedia. From my point of view, the article has to be rewritten almost from scratch, and furnished with reliable and relevant information. Any of those who discussed this ten years ago still alive and kicking?-- HajjiBaba ( talk) 18:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
This section does not provide any information about the usage of the word in the Quran. There is no quotation provided. Instead, the modern interpretation of the word "alim" is discussed i.e., that a modern definition of "alim" might include other scholars and scientists as well. How could this help our understanding of the ulama? I've therefore deleted the section.-- HajjiBaba ( talk) 04:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@ HajjiBaba: There's a case for mentioning some philosophical controversies as they impacted the ulama, but we shouldn't give the impression that the term ulama normally includes the falasifa. In particular, Hourani doesn't include philosophers in the chapter The Culture of The Ulama. Lapidus' A History of Islamic Societies has a good discussion of the differences between the cultural milieus represented by the ulama and philosophers. Eperoton ( talk) 13:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
The designation makes some sense in the Ottoman context, which perhaps influenced the word choice used in the source, but as a general statement I believe it's misleading and doesn't reflect the vast majority of RSs. To the extent that the author meant it as a general statement, I would argue that it is WP:UNDUE. Eperoton ( talk) 16:26, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
For the definition, I think we should give substantial weight to standard academic references:
Currently, we're giving excessive weight to rather marginal sources, e.g., the Rowman Altamira encyclopedia, which is written by a single author with no academic credentials, the book Islam and Modernity, whose author and publisher I'm not familiar with, and the paper on Ottoman ulema where the tagged expression comes from. Eperoton ( talk) 16:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
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