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I wonder if it is this place which is mentioned as "Arab ibn Ubeid" under Jerusalem, in the 1945 census? Like on p. 58, Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 20:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"According to the Applied Research Institute–Jerusalem (ARIJ), Al-‘Ubeidiya was established in 1600."
ARIJ is, like always, a terribly poor source, which however deals with topics ignored by others, otherwise it should be forever shunned. It writes "in 1600", which a) must be according to some local tradition rather than a documented event, which should be made clear; and b) cannot possibly be taken at face value as such a precise date, which makes me interpret it as either 'the 16th century', or 'towards 1600' (I don't trust ARIJ to make the distinction between 16th century, towards 1600, 1600, and 1600s/17th century). Is there any reliable source out there? Arminden ( talk) 15:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Read about Abu Ghosh, they have two versions for their name & origin, Hijaz and Caucasus. When the Chechen president came waving with dollar bundles, they quickly opted for the Chechen version - and now own a brand-new, Chechen-style mosque. So you see, this stuff matters in more than one way. Arminden ( talk) 00:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Huldra, Onceinawhile, Al Ameer son, and Zero0000: Btw (see above), I see there's no category for people who worked on the ethnography of Palestine, and it's needed. One obstacle might be the name, as many if not most were not Palestinians, so you cannot call the cat. "Palestinian ethnographers" like you have "German ethnographers". I suggest "Palestine ethnographers". Less good, as it would include the science, not just the researchers, would be "Ethnography of Palestine"; that would be a very wide category. Anyone interested in creating it? Maybe even both? Pls ping all the other "usual suspects" I might have left out. Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 12:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
PS: from the post further up, here the names coming to my mind (I hope they all qualify to a strict definition distinguishing ethnographers from historians, explorers, etc.): Gustav Dalman, Arif el-Arif, Tawfiq Canaan, Meron Benvenisti, plus the entire early bunch (several of the PEF people, maybe Edward Robinson and Conrad Schick, etc.).
A few more names I found:
Collections of proverbs (in Arabic with German translation):
Authors who wrote dictionaries, glossaries and manuals of Palestinian Arabic (in German or English):
Collections of folk tales:
Arminden ( talk) 15:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
PS: Titus Tobler is described as "having dedicated his entire life to "Palestinology"" (quotation marks from the original text, not mine), him "striving to establish the Palestine science [my literal translation of "Palästina-Wissenschaft"; "Palestine studies" would be the better English term] as an autonomous and equally respected branch of the study of Graeco-Roman antiquity." (Stefan Schröder (2010), Zwischen Christentum und Islam: Kulturelle Grenzen in den spätmittelalterlichen Pilgerberichten des Felix Fabri, p. 33). The same author introduces Tobler as the "Nestor [German for founder or venerable leading scientist of a certain field of research] of medieval travelogues", so focusing on the Middle Ages, not even the classical antiquity, which again shows the elasticity of the term. Arminden ( talk) 12:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
David, sorry, but this time you are very, VERY wrong. Language is not a function of logic or etymology, but of actual use. And the way Palestinology is used has little to do with your assumed etymology. It's called "popular etymology" and regularly leads to mistakes. And to some funny jokes. I'll add only one word: Egyptology. I hope you get the point. Reality beats any assumption. I'll have to re-revert at Dalman. I hope you see now why. Arminden ( talk) 01:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
It's not up to me, you, Huldra, or the spirit of Yassir Arafat. It's about what the words mean according to reliable sources, RS. Btw, this one is hardly ever used anymore. I've wasted a lot of time I don't have to do a thorough research. Did you? Did you read what I wrote and follow up on it, i.e. do your own research, if you felt unconvinced? Nothing else counts. Arminden ( talk) 01:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Ok, I see the cat is made; but I really don't see how useful it it? What does Raphael Patai (whose The Arab Mind I have seen described as pure racism) have in commons with, say Tawfiq Canaan? Very little, I would say, Huldra ( talk) 20:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
David, now I see what you mean ( Category:Palestinologists and Category:Palestinianists). The definition from Category:Palestinologists is taken out of thin air. Next would be somebody defining an Egyptologist as someone who studies Egypt. Wikipedia cannot make such calls, it lacks the authority, and that's why it's forbidden by its own rules. Arminden ( talk) 00:32, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Ubeidiya apparently stretches both (1) along the main road from Bethlehem to St. Theodosius Monastery (which then continues down Wadi Naar), and (2) sideways along the relatively narrow, winding street towards Mar Saba, branching out from the main road below St. Theodosius, with some lanes & houses further fanning out through the desert.
Must be clarified. Google Maps fails to even show it at all. Arminden ( talk) 10:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
It appears listed among the at-Ta'mira villages, as part of the so-called " 'Arab al-Ta'mira village cluster" (mainly) east of Bethlehem. But the Ta'mira seem to have become sedentary in the 19th-20th centuries, and the article mentions an earlier settlement, AND fellaheen, so either there was a switch at some point (if not twice, see ARIJ 1600 issue) as part of the tribal wars or due to other causes, or there is more than one tribe living there, with different settlement dates. Never ignore the khirba phenomenon in the desert fringe areas - population fluctuation, including switches of the same clan or tribe between sedentary and nomadic lifestyles due to external pressures or, conversely, to encouraging developments. Arminden ( talk) 14:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
I wonder if it is this place which is mentioned as "Arab ibn Ubeid" under Jerusalem, in the 1945 census? Like on p. 58, Cheers, Huldra ( talk) 20:43, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"According to the Applied Research Institute–Jerusalem (ARIJ), Al-‘Ubeidiya was established in 1600."
ARIJ is, like always, a terribly poor source, which however deals with topics ignored by others, otherwise it should be forever shunned. It writes "in 1600", which a) must be according to some local tradition rather than a documented event, which should be made clear; and b) cannot possibly be taken at face value as such a precise date, which makes me interpret it as either 'the 16th century', or 'towards 1600' (I don't trust ARIJ to make the distinction between 16th century, towards 1600, 1600, and 1600s/17th century). Is there any reliable source out there? Arminden ( talk) 15:13, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Read about Abu Ghosh, they have two versions for their name & origin, Hijaz and Caucasus. When the Chechen president came waving with dollar bundles, they quickly opted for the Chechen version - and now own a brand-new, Chechen-style mosque. So you see, this stuff matters in more than one way. Arminden ( talk) 00:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Huldra, Onceinawhile, Al Ameer son, and Zero0000: Btw (see above), I see there's no category for people who worked on the ethnography of Palestine, and it's needed. One obstacle might be the name, as many if not most were not Palestinians, so you cannot call the cat. "Palestinian ethnographers" like you have "German ethnographers". I suggest "Palestine ethnographers". Less good, as it would include the science, not just the researchers, would be "Ethnography of Palestine"; that would be a very wide category. Anyone interested in creating it? Maybe even both? Pls ping all the other "usual suspects" I might have left out. Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 12:15, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
PS: from the post further up, here the names coming to my mind (I hope they all qualify to a strict definition distinguishing ethnographers from historians, explorers, etc.): Gustav Dalman, Arif el-Arif, Tawfiq Canaan, Meron Benvenisti, plus the entire early bunch (several of the PEF people, maybe Edward Robinson and Conrad Schick, etc.).
A few more names I found:
Collections of proverbs (in Arabic with German translation):
Authors who wrote dictionaries, glossaries and manuals of Palestinian Arabic (in German or English):
Collections of folk tales:
Arminden ( talk) 15:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
PS: Titus Tobler is described as "having dedicated his entire life to "Palestinology"" (quotation marks from the original text, not mine), him "striving to establish the Palestine science [my literal translation of "Palästina-Wissenschaft"; "Palestine studies" would be the better English term] as an autonomous and equally respected branch of the study of Graeco-Roman antiquity." (Stefan Schröder (2010), Zwischen Christentum und Islam: Kulturelle Grenzen in den spätmittelalterlichen Pilgerberichten des Felix Fabri, p. 33). The same author introduces Tobler as the "Nestor [German for founder or venerable leading scientist of a certain field of research] of medieval travelogues", so focusing on the Middle Ages, not even the classical antiquity, which again shows the elasticity of the term. Arminden ( talk) 12:57, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
David, sorry, but this time you are very, VERY wrong. Language is not a function of logic or etymology, but of actual use. And the way Palestinology is used has little to do with your assumed etymology. It's called "popular etymology" and regularly leads to mistakes. And to some funny jokes. I'll add only one word: Egyptology. I hope you get the point. Reality beats any assumption. I'll have to re-revert at Dalman. I hope you see now why. Arminden ( talk) 01:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
It's not up to me, you, Huldra, or the spirit of Yassir Arafat. It's about what the words mean according to reliable sources, RS. Btw, this one is hardly ever used anymore. I've wasted a lot of time I don't have to do a thorough research. Did you? Did you read what I wrote and follow up on it, i.e. do your own research, if you felt unconvinced? Nothing else counts. Arminden ( talk) 01:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Ok, I see the cat is made; but I really don't see how useful it it? What does Raphael Patai (whose The Arab Mind I have seen described as pure racism) have in commons with, say Tawfiq Canaan? Very little, I would say, Huldra ( talk) 20:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
David, now I see what you mean ( Category:Palestinologists and Category:Palestinianists). The definition from Category:Palestinologists is taken out of thin air. Next would be somebody defining an Egyptologist as someone who studies Egypt. Wikipedia cannot make such calls, it lacks the authority, and that's why it's forbidden by its own rules. Arminden ( talk) 00:32, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Ubeidiya apparently stretches both (1) along the main road from Bethlehem to St. Theodosius Monastery (which then continues down Wadi Naar), and (2) sideways along the relatively narrow, winding street towards Mar Saba, branching out from the main road below St. Theodosius, with some lanes & houses further fanning out through the desert.
Must be clarified. Google Maps fails to even show it at all. Arminden ( talk) 10:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
It appears listed among the at-Ta'mira villages, as part of the so-called " 'Arab al-Ta'mira village cluster" (mainly) east of Bethlehem. But the Ta'mira seem to have become sedentary in the 19th-20th centuries, and the article mentions an earlier settlement, AND fellaheen, so either there was a switch at some point (if not twice, see ARIJ 1600 issue) as part of the tribal wars or due to other causes, or there is more than one tribe living there, with different settlement dates. Never ignore the khirba phenomenon in the desert fringe areas - population fluctuation, including switches of the same clan or tribe between sedentary and nomadic lifestyles due to external pressures or, conversely, to encouraging developments. Arminden ( talk) 14:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)