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@ Johnbod, Netherzone, The ed17, Greghenderson2006, and Newyorkbrad: Discussion about merging George W. Blunt, No. 11 with USS G. W. Blunt (1861) . Graywalls ( talk) 20:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Regarding length and tonnages for identification: Unless there is a clear statement of what measurement type and method is behind the numbers they are nearly useless for identification. Navy almost always (I know of a few exceptions) uses length overall in DANFS. Most people think of LOA for ship length. Builders and shippers use other measures, length between perpendiculars (the illustration is informative!) being very common. Then there is that very similar register length. In the days of long bowsprits and sail the LOA figure can be very much larger number than LBP or registry. Likewise any statement of tonnage without specification of what kind and how measured is worthless. Navy tends to use displacement, tons of water displaced at full load based on hull form. Commercial is almost always volumetric based on measurement of space with only DWT being on a footing with displacement. Gross and Net have nothing to do with displacement. To complicate matters slightly different techniques were sometimes used to actually make the measurement so that I have seen even LBP with slight differences. Unfortunately the ship in question does not even have a good set of dimensions in the linked register to even begin resolving register v. DANFS numbers. Palmeira ( talk) 10:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
comment So it appears there's a consensus in favor of merging pilot boats into this article, so long as the identity issues are properly resolved. Graywalls ( talk) 01:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
for the record, I support a merger, but into George W. Blunt, No. 11. Davidships ( talk) 02:40, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
A single hit of an advanced search at Library of Congress (as suggested by Mjroots) for 1861—1862 using phrase and words go a new reference that seems to be what is needed. The New York Herald, December 02, 1861, Page 8, Image 8. It is about the second pilot boat but has "take the place of a yacht of the same name recently sold to the US government to go to Port Royal as a pilot boat." That is more than a slim thread connecting the vessels. I am adding it as a reference so that a link is made that is good enough. The new reference states the new pilot boat replacing the first was 120 tons (unspecified basis) built in July 1861, by Messrs Brown & Lovell (found elsewhere as East Boston builders) who sold the vessel to Messrs Henderson & Callahan of New York for $8,000 cash. In checking I found the pilots were competing individuals at that time so perhaps the buyers were the actual pilots. Something someone might develop. The brief note is in the second from right column, just above mid page of the link. Palmeira ( talk) 11:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
(Duplicated in both Talk pages)
Now that we have a cite for the 1856 pilot boat being the USS G. W. Blunt there are a few clean up things that need doing regardless of the merge outcome. I now support the merge as a single article gives continuity and avoids confusion. Here are what I see as continuing problems:
In researching this I ran across several discussions of the history of the Sandy Hook pilots. They were keen competitors owning fast vessels. One noted they sailed as far as New England and the Virginia Capes seeking business. They were eventually brought under tighter state control, but some of that needs to go into the pilot boat (merged or separate) as it explains some of the ownership and activities. Palmeira ( talk) 13:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm hearing Boston as well as New York. Do we know definitively, should we say sources disagree, or just omit it? https://books.google.com/books?id=x-XcAgWYTMMC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104 reliable secondary source says E.Boston, although I'm hearing New York too. Should we just disregard everything from primary source documents from mysticseaport.org website? Graywalls ( talk) 21:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the original vessel's infobox and intro to avoid confusion. On Talk:George W. Blunt, No. 11 I have summerized that and made a proposal this article be merged into the pilot vessel article to maintain chronological integrity that will also help avoid the mass confusion of same/variant names, two pilot boats of the same name and the impossible apple/orange/grapefruit sorting of unspecified dimensions and tonnage from various old sources in attempts to sort vessels of same or almost same characteristics. In any case the title here is inappropriate. The DAB of date is Navy acquisition year, not launch year, and thus adds to confusion with the second pilot boat launched in 1861. As far as I can tell no other Navy vessel was named G. W. Blunt so no DAB is needed. Palmeira ( talk) 14:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion would be useful. Wait for the search on "Blunt" to complete after going to the link. Palmeira ( talk) 13:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
(Duplicated in both article Talk pages) No matter whether merge is George W. Blunt built 1856 <-> USS G. W. Blunt built 1856 and acquired by Navy in 1861 the names required correction. That may cut down on confusion as well. The whole USS G. W. Blunt (1861) was a blunder using acquisition year instead of built year encouraging conflation with the second pilot schooner, built as a replacement for the first, in 1861. Clean up at linking pages after move with direct links except on various user and talk pages. Palmeira ( talk) 03:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
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@ Johnbod, Netherzone, The ed17, Greghenderson2006, and Newyorkbrad: Discussion about merging George W. Blunt, No. 11 with USS G. W. Blunt (1861) . Graywalls ( talk) 20:50, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Regarding length and tonnages for identification: Unless there is a clear statement of what measurement type and method is behind the numbers they are nearly useless for identification. Navy almost always (I know of a few exceptions) uses length overall in DANFS. Most people think of LOA for ship length. Builders and shippers use other measures, length between perpendiculars (the illustration is informative!) being very common. Then there is that very similar register length. In the days of long bowsprits and sail the LOA figure can be very much larger number than LBP or registry. Likewise any statement of tonnage without specification of what kind and how measured is worthless. Navy tends to use displacement, tons of water displaced at full load based on hull form. Commercial is almost always volumetric based on measurement of space with only DWT being on a footing with displacement. Gross and Net have nothing to do with displacement. To complicate matters slightly different techniques were sometimes used to actually make the measurement so that I have seen even LBP with slight differences. Unfortunately the ship in question does not even have a good set of dimensions in the linked register to even begin resolving register v. DANFS numbers. Palmeira ( talk) 10:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
comment So it appears there's a consensus in favor of merging pilot boats into this article, so long as the identity issues are properly resolved. Graywalls ( talk) 01:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
for the record, I support a merger, but into George W. Blunt, No. 11. Davidships ( talk) 02:40, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
A single hit of an advanced search at Library of Congress (as suggested by Mjroots) for 1861—1862 using phrase and words go a new reference that seems to be what is needed. The New York Herald, December 02, 1861, Page 8, Image 8. It is about the second pilot boat but has "take the place of a yacht of the same name recently sold to the US government to go to Port Royal as a pilot boat." That is more than a slim thread connecting the vessels. I am adding it as a reference so that a link is made that is good enough. The new reference states the new pilot boat replacing the first was 120 tons (unspecified basis) built in July 1861, by Messrs Brown & Lovell (found elsewhere as East Boston builders) who sold the vessel to Messrs Henderson & Callahan of New York for $8,000 cash. In checking I found the pilots were competing individuals at that time so perhaps the buyers were the actual pilots. Something someone might develop. The brief note is in the second from right column, just above mid page of the link. Palmeira ( talk) 11:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
(Duplicated in both Talk pages)
Now that we have a cite for the 1856 pilot boat being the USS G. W. Blunt there are a few clean up things that need doing regardless of the merge outcome. I now support the merge as a single article gives continuity and avoids confusion. Here are what I see as continuing problems:
In researching this I ran across several discussions of the history of the Sandy Hook pilots. They were keen competitors owning fast vessels. One noted they sailed as far as New England and the Virginia Capes seeking business. They were eventually brought under tighter state control, but some of that needs to go into the pilot boat (merged or separate) as it explains some of the ownership and activities. Palmeira ( talk) 13:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm hearing Boston as well as New York. Do we know definitively, should we say sources disagree, or just omit it? https://books.google.com/books?id=x-XcAgWYTMMC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104 reliable secondary source says E.Boston, although I'm hearing New York too. Should we just disregard everything from primary source documents from mysticseaport.org website? Graywalls ( talk) 21:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
I have cleaned up the original vessel's infobox and intro to avoid confusion. On Talk:George W. Blunt, No. 11 I have summerized that and made a proposal this article be merged into the pilot vessel article to maintain chronological integrity that will also help avoid the mass confusion of same/variant names, two pilot boats of the same name and the impossible apple/orange/grapefruit sorting of unspecified dimensions and tonnage from various old sources in attempts to sort vessels of same or almost same characteristics. In any case the title here is inappropriate. The DAB of date is Navy acquisition year, not launch year, and thus adds to confusion with the second pilot boat launched in 1861. As far as I can tell no other Navy vessel was named G. W. Blunt so no DAB is needed. Palmeira ( talk) 14:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
Official Records of the Union and Confederate Navies in the War of the Rebellion would be useful. Wait for the search on "Blunt" to complete after going to the link. Palmeira ( talk) 13:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
(Duplicated in both article Talk pages) No matter whether merge is George W. Blunt built 1856 <-> USS G. W. Blunt built 1856 and acquired by Navy in 1861 the names required correction. That may cut down on confusion as well. The whole USS G. W. Blunt (1861) was a blunder using acquisition year instead of built year encouraging conflation with the second pilot schooner, built as a replacement for the first, in 1861. Clean up at linking pages after move with direct links except on various user and talk pages. Palmeira ( talk) 03:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)