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I understand that this article may have been created in response to the criticism that U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies was becoming too NOLA centric. If so, that is a good idea. At the same time, as this article increases in scope, the NOLA issues in the other article should become more summarized.
As this article stabilizes, please ensure that it is not just a coatrack for bashing the Corps of Engineers but genuinely represents a neutral point of view on the subject. As such, it should discuss some or all of the following:
and so forth.
The problems in New Orleans are real. However, they are not solely the fault of the Corps of Engineers. This article needs to avoid being just an attack vehicle on the Corps of Engineers. This article can provide valuable insight to people wanting to learn about the hows and whys of the Katrina disaster; however, in order to do so, it must, in accordance with WP:NPOV remain balanced and present all sides of the problem. Don'tKnowItAtAll ( talk) 18:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I read a late 1990s Corps of Engineering report to FEMA about New Orleans. They predicted Katrina. Since the French owned New Orleans in late 17th century every engineering report has recommended MOVING New Orleans 50+ miles north over any levees etc as safer and cheaper in the long run. Defeated by traditions and populace and current expense versus indeterminate future costs.
Also all Corp plans are ultimately limited by funding. Its a given X dollars do the best you can situation. Internally to government the Corp has always said that protecting New Orleans against Cat 4 and Cat 5 Hurricanes was impractical. Further solid Cat 3 protection was not economically practical due to construction costs of over $1 Trillion dollars and annual maintenance of potentially as high as $150B. Well now we have spent $750B in new construction but not sure how much ongoing maintenance is taken out of that.
The Corp internal reports still say Katrina disaster will most probably happen again even with new levees. One problems is that even if levees hold and are not over topped... lifting forces by storm surges will likely cause hydraulic blowouts behind the levees. Remember New Orleans floats on a thick soil mat over the main part of the Mississippi River flowing underground. Remember New Orleans sits in a bowl in that soil mat over 60 feet below sea level at some points and getting deeper every year as building weights increase. 70.114.136.69 ( talk) 05:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
I would like to discuss the editing of this ( U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies)article, as well as editing of the related article that is solely focused on New Orleans controversies. Just to clarify: the article on New Orleans controversies is meant to allow an expansion of the issues related to New Orleans, not for the removal of New Orleans issues from the main article on civil works controversies. The New Orleans controversies are significant to the subject of civil works controversies. I would even say that the New Orleans issues are the most visibly emblematic of U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies, as demonstrated by the fact that even the overview is mainly focused on New Orleans. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
When summarizing and moving information from this main article to the sub-article on New Orleans, please make sure to keep your edits WP:NPOV. Removing only the negative details about the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is not WP:NPOV. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That brings me to my next point, which is that the overview (now entitled “background”) still needs work. An “overview” is supposed to provide an brief synopsis or summary of what is to come in the main body of the article. The current overview/“background” does not accomplish that. It discusses two subjects – one that revisits the idea of earmarks pork spending (which is mentioned in the introductory paragraph right above the overview), and one that discusses New Orleans. Furthermore, this detail about New Orleans is not even a general introduction to the main controversies currently surrounding U.S. Army Corps of Engineers projects in the New Orleans vicinity, but rather it is a reference to a past decision-making process that is barely discussed in this article. I created a section about that past controversy in the spin-off article on New Orleans. The detail from that debate should be moved there, and expanded with more information about the context of those quotations. If you wish to provide background, please do in the subject heading of the controversy to which you wish to provide context. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Lastly, in response to your (Don'tKnowItAtAll's) previous discussion post, two things: 1. I would suggest that you consult legal counsel on the general notion of conflict of interest if you are confused as to why this is important part of this article. Problems arise when the proper measures are not taken to avoid, or at least fully disclose, all potential conflicts of interest. This is standard legal procedure in most all professions, meant as a safeguard to the integrity and credibility of the parties involved. The conflict of interest questions in the studies mentioned are an integral part of the controversy, and a recurring theme among the peer reviews. This makes the issue of conflict of interest one of the most important part of the controversies page - anything but a red herring. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
2. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was the agency responsible for building the levees, by federal mandate. It is the Corps that is responsible for the design and construction of any project is authorized by congressional appropriation – the standard cost-sharing procedures do not alter that responsibility. Once the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity flood protection project was authorized, it was the responsibility of the Corps to design and construct the flood protection as specified in the appropriations bill. Failure to design and build adequate structures cannot be blamed on anyone else. While there are some noble individuals who have been forthright in admitting fault, those who wish to shirk blame for past mistakes are doomed to repeat them in the future. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Let's keep working on this, while discussing it here, or better yet, on the discussion page for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies (New Orleans). NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
![]() | A news item involving U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies (New Orleans) was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 20 November 2009. | ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||
|
I understand that this article may have been created in response to the criticism that U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies was becoming too NOLA centric. If so, that is a good idea. At the same time, as this article increases in scope, the NOLA issues in the other article should become more summarized.
As this article stabilizes, please ensure that it is not just a coatrack for bashing the Corps of Engineers but genuinely represents a neutral point of view on the subject. As such, it should discuss some or all of the following:
and so forth.
The problems in New Orleans are real. However, they are not solely the fault of the Corps of Engineers. This article needs to avoid being just an attack vehicle on the Corps of Engineers. This article can provide valuable insight to people wanting to learn about the hows and whys of the Katrina disaster; however, in order to do so, it must, in accordance with WP:NPOV remain balanced and present all sides of the problem. Don'tKnowItAtAll ( talk) 18:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I read a late 1990s Corps of Engineering report to FEMA about New Orleans. They predicted Katrina. Since the French owned New Orleans in late 17th century every engineering report has recommended MOVING New Orleans 50+ miles north over any levees etc as safer and cheaper in the long run. Defeated by traditions and populace and current expense versus indeterminate future costs.
Also all Corp plans are ultimately limited by funding. Its a given X dollars do the best you can situation. Internally to government the Corp has always said that protecting New Orleans against Cat 4 and Cat 5 Hurricanes was impractical. Further solid Cat 3 protection was not economically practical due to construction costs of over $1 Trillion dollars and annual maintenance of potentially as high as $150B. Well now we have spent $750B in new construction but not sure how much ongoing maintenance is taken out of that.
The Corp internal reports still say Katrina disaster will most probably happen again even with new levees. One problems is that even if levees hold and are not over topped... lifting forces by storm surges will likely cause hydraulic blowouts behind the levees. Remember New Orleans floats on a thick soil mat over the main part of the Mississippi River flowing underground. Remember New Orleans sits in a bowl in that soil mat over 60 feet below sea level at some points and getting deeper every year as building weights increase. 70.114.136.69 ( talk) 05:03, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
I would like to discuss the editing of this ( U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies)article, as well as editing of the related article that is solely focused on New Orleans controversies. Just to clarify: the article on New Orleans controversies is meant to allow an expansion of the issues related to New Orleans, not for the removal of New Orleans issues from the main article on civil works controversies. The New Orleans controversies are significant to the subject of civil works controversies. I would even say that the New Orleans issues are the most visibly emblematic of U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies, as demonstrated by the fact that even the overview is mainly focused on New Orleans. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
When summarizing and moving information from this main article to the sub-article on New Orleans, please make sure to keep your edits WP:NPOV. Removing only the negative details about the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is not WP:NPOV. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
That brings me to my next point, which is that the overview (now entitled “background”) still needs work. An “overview” is supposed to provide an brief synopsis or summary of what is to come in the main body of the article. The current overview/“background” does not accomplish that. It discusses two subjects – one that revisits the idea of earmarks pork spending (which is mentioned in the introductory paragraph right above the overview), and one that discusses New Orleans. Furthermore, this detail about New Orleans is not even a general introduction to the main controversies currently surrounding U.S. Army Corps of Engineers projects in the New Orleans vicinity, but rather it is a reference to a past decision-making process that is barely discussed in this article. I created a section about that past controversy in the spin-off article on New Orleans. The detail from that debate should be moved there, and expanded with more information about the context of those quotations. If you wish to provide background, please do in the subject heading of the controversy to which you wish to provide context. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Lastly, in response to your (Don'tKnowItAtAll's) previous discussion post, two things: 1. I would suggest that you consult legal counsel on the general notion of conflict of interest if you are confused as to why this is important part of this article. Problems arise when the proper measures are not taken to avoid, or at least fully disclose, all potential conflicts of interest. This is standard legal procedure in most all professions, meant as a safeguard to the integrity and credibility of the parties involved. The conflict of interest questions in the studies mentioned are an integral part of the controversy, and a recurring theme among the peer reviews. This makes the issue of conflict of interest one of the most important part of the controversies page - anything but a red herring. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
2. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers was the agency responsible for building the levees, by federal mandate. It is the Corps that is responsible for the design and construction of any project is authorized by congressional appropriation – the standard cost-sharing procedures do not alter that responsibility. Once the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity flood protection project was authorized, it was the responsibility of the Corps to design and construct the flood protection as specified in the appropriations bill. Failure to design and build adequate structures cannot be blamed on anyone else. While there are some noble individuals who have been forthright in admitting fault, those who wish to shirk blame for past mistakes are doomed to repeat them in the future. NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Let's keep working on this, while discussing it here, or better yet, on the discussion page for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers civil works controversies (New Orleans). NormanFixesIt ( talk) 21:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)