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I know that Wiktionary [1] says that TP is a crimson, but it gives no reference. The swatch I added is a purple, and has a reference that claims to be based on the real Murex trunculus. If anyone can find a reliable reference to support the Wiktionary version, then I'll amend my swatch or add an alternative one. -- Heron 11:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I've just found a more detailed reference at Grove Art Online (OUP) [2] under "Ancient Near East, §II, 6(i): Textiles: Introduction, (b) Manufacture". It says that the Phoenicians made "dark reds" from Murex brandaris at Tyre and "true purple" from M. trunculus at Sidon. I suggest, therefore, that lexicographers are confusing "Tyrian red" with "Tyrian purple". -- Heron 12:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. My "M. trunculus = purple" idea came from a Kramer Pigmente swatch [3] that called M. trunculus "Tyrian purple". I think Kremer have misnamed their swatch. Tyrian Red does exist, though, and it looks like this: __________. I worked this colour out by combining this page [4] that equates Tyrian Red to RHS colour code 66A, with this page [5] that equates RHS 66A with RGB #b80049. I now claim that "Tyrian red" and "Tyrian purple" are the same crimson colour from M. trunculus, not to be confused with "Royal purple" and "Imperial purple", which are purple in the modern sense. All that said, I think that as an encyclopedia we must admit that the colour of Tyrian purple is debatable. There are some interesting quotes on this from Classical writers in "The Mutability of Blue" by Ryan J. Huxtable. -- Heron 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Good point. With a gamma of 2.2, I make that #990024, which looks like this: __________. That's closer to Pliny's 'congealed blood'. -- Heron 19:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As I write, this article contains two uses of BCE (one in a footnote) and two of BC. This ought to be standardised - I haven't done so as I don't know whether there's a convention for articles on this subject to use one in particular. 86.132.143.27 23:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a photo of 6,6'-dibromoindigo powder against a neutral gray background. In the coming weeks I'll attempt to dye some swatches of cotton and wool using the procedure given by V. Daniels, Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology A:Chemistry 184 p73-77 (2006). I've only got 250 mg of the stuff but it should be sufficient to dye several 10X10cm piece. I would expect that the dye on cloth will be slightly different than the powdered dye. Daniels reports that the dye comes out slightly redder on wool and more blue on cotton and nylon, with the sequence being wool : silk : linen : cotton : nylon. To my mismatched-socks-looks-ok-to-me eye the powder is a very close match to the bar on the front page comparison chart labeled "Tyrian Purple (Imperial Purple) (Hex: #66023C) (RGB: 102, 2, 60)" __________. The actual color produced by extracting snail juice can vary quite a bit. During the dying process, the water soluble leuco form of 6,6'-dibromoindigo can photodebrominate under UV, which renders the shade more blueish and less purple. Two debrominations yield plain old indigo. Sex, age and species differences in the various Murex shells give different amounts of mono and dibromoindigorubin which are more of a reddish purple. These also can photodebrominate to give the quite red indirubin. I'll dig out the references and add this if it seems appropriate. Hey, this is my first edit so cut me some slack. -- Brochis 05:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Quote from the insight book:
The color of the cloak with which Jesus Christ was clothed on the day of his execution has caused some persons to argue that a discrepancy exists in the Bible record with reference to this garment. Matthew said that the soldiers “draped him with a scarlet cloak” (Mt 27:28), while Mark and John say that it was purple. (Mr 15:17; Joh 19:2) However, instead of being a discrepancy, such a variation in describing the garment’s color merely gives evidence of the individuality of the Gospel writers and the fact that they were not in collusion. Matthew described the cloak as it appeared to him, that is, according to his evaluation of color, and he emphasized the garment’s red hue. John and Mark subdued the red tint, calling it purple. “Purple” can be applied to any color having components of both blue and red. So, Mark and John agree with Matthew that the garment was red to some extent. Of course, background and light reflection could have given it different casts. A body of water varies in color at different times, depending upon the particular color of the sky and the reflection of light at a given time. So, when such factors are considered, it is seen that the Gospel writers were not in conflict in describing the color of the cloak that mocking Roman soldiers clothed Christ with on the last day of his human life.
Somebody hasn't read Jacoby well enough.In his 2000 article "The production of silk textiles in Latin Greece" (in Τεχνογνωσία στη λατινοκρατούμενη Ελλάδα [Technology in Latin-Occupied Greece],(Ημερίδα, Αθήνα, 8 Φεβρουαρίου 1997, Γεννάδειος Βιβλιοθηκη), Athens: Politistiko Technologiko Idryma ETBA, 2000) he has found a reference to athenian, euripian and karystian fishermen harvesting purple-giving molluscs at Gyaros - in 1208. He links this to athenian shellfish mounds from the medieval period. Should be corrected in the main text.
The text implies a range of colours, as do the bullets (3), yet on my monitor I'm seeing only the last 2 while the first bullet has blank space to its right. What's up? Ed8r ( talk) 23:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is copied and pasted here by Invertzoo ( talk) 23:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC) from the Gastropod Project talk page:
What is terminology of natural dyes ( purple) from sea snails?
This should be clarified and properly referenced in all of these articles.-- Snek01 ( talk) 21:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The second picture on the right shows a bright, vibrant chromatic purple color that most people would immediately recognize as "royal purple", while Justinian I's cloak and the RGB samples lower in the article show a much darker redder shade consistent with the "clotted blood" color mentioned by Pliny.
While I realize the term "purple" has likely changed meaning since then, the article shows two vastly different shades, states they are the same thing, then doesn't explain why. I'm in no way a subject matter expert, so many somebody can help out. Bravo Foxtrot ( talk) 15:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
This article should only be about the dye - there should be a separate article about its chemistry. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 15:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
http://www.chriscooksey.demon.co.uk/tyrian/
The CMYK for websites doesn't seem to make sense. It's a bright magenta sort of colour. When I turn the RGB one into CMYK I get C52 m99 y81 k7, which looks more like what it should be. 87.246.103.137 ( talk) 12:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to best deal with this. No one takes any claims of Phoenicans in Mexico seriously today, but such ideas were very popular up through the middle of the 20th century. I do know that The hyperdiffusionist Grafton Elliot Smith wrote that "After a very thorough and critical analysis of all the facts of this truly remarkable case of transmission of an extraordinary custom, Mrs. Nuttall justly concludes that “it seems almost easier to believe that certain elements of an ancient European culture were at one time, and perhaps once only, actually transmitted by the traditional small band of . . . Mediterranean seafarers, than to explain how, under totally different conditions of race and climate, the identical ideas and customs should have arisen ” (pp. 383 and 384)." Dougweller ( talk) 15:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the [citation needed] tags, replacing them with in-line citations from the two new sources (4 and 17) that I've added. Omnitaus ( talk) 19:48, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
I was comparing the english wiki and the italian wiki and they show two different colours for tyrian purple. The italian one is RGB (178; 42; 35) HEX #B22A23 __________ it is a shade of red and indeed it is called also red purple in italian. The italian wiki also points out that the english word purple, that for the image of the cloth painted with dibromoindigo in the top of this article, is called violet in italian and is not the true purpura (porpora).
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porpora
19:56, 14 October 2017 (UTC) Connacht ( talk)
Considering its description as reddish-purple and hue on the HSV system, it would seem like a good idea to add this to the list and category of shades of magenta and/or red-violet. 165.225.39.71 ( talk) 20:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
the section labelled History says that this dye remained in use "until 1453 AD, with the fall of Constantinople." lower down, in the Background section it says that production, "came to an abrupt end with the sack of Constantinople in 1204." picky of me to note that there's only 250 years difference but this needs to be resolved. Constantinople was sacked as part of the fourth Crusade in 1204, but continued to operate as the centre of the Latin Empire of Constantinople until 1261 when it reverted to the Byzantine Empire until 1453 when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks and became part of their empire. the source cited for the 1453 quote says, on page 25, "In areas ruled by Byzantium, the industry continued until the Turkish conquest of the city in 1453, and Pope Paul II's decree of 1464 that cardinals' robes should, henceforth, be dyed with kermes (an insect dye) rather than whelk dye, is usually considered to indicate a response to the final loss of the industry." I don't have access to the second source for the 1204 quote, but I think it possible that the Wikipedian who wrote the 1204 comment has simply confused sack and fall without realising that they are very different things. Cottonshirt τ 03:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
the name Tyrian purple does not refer to tyre of Lebanon but the more ancient kingdoms like Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) אמיר יוגב ( talk) 06:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I know that Wiktionary [1] says that TP is a crimson, but it gives no reference. The swatch I added is a purple, and has a reference that claims to be based on the real Murex trunculus. If anyone can find a reliable reference to support the Wiktionary version, then I'll amend my swatch or add an alternative one. -- Heron 11:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I've just found a more detailed reference at Grove Art Online (OUP) [2] under "Ancient Near East, §II, 6(i): Textiles: Introduction, (b) Manufacture". It says that the Phoenicians made "dark reds" from Murex brandaris at Tyre and "true purple" from M. trunculus at Sidon. I suggest, therefore, that lexicographers are confusing "Tyrian red" with "Tyrian purple". -- Heron 12:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. My "M. trunculus = purple" idea came from a Kramer Pigmente swatch [3] that called M. trunculus "Tyrian purple". I think Kremer have misnamed their swatch. Tyrian Red does exist, though, and it looks like this: __________. I worked this colour out by combining this page [4] that equates Tyrian Red to RHS colour code 66A, with this page [5] that equates RHS 66A with RGB #b80049. I now claim that "Tyrian red" and "Tyrian purple" are the same crimson colour from M. trunculus, not to be confused with "Royal purple" and "Imperial purple", which are purple in the modern sense. All that said, I think that as an encyclopedia we must admit that the colour of Tyrian purple is debatable. There are some interesting quotes on this from Classical writers in "The Mutability of Blue" by Ryan J. Huxtable. -- Heron 18:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Good point. With a gamma of 2.2, I make that #990024, which looks like this: __________. That's closer to Pliny's 'congealed blood'. -- Heron 19:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As I write, this article contains two uses of BCE (one in a footnote) and two of BC. This ought to be standardised - I haven't done so as I don't know whether there's a convention for articles on this subject to use one in particular. 86.132.143.27 23:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I've added a photo of 6,6'-dibromoindigo powder against a neutral gray background. In the coming weeks I'll attempt to dye some swatches of cotton and wool using the procedure given by V. Daniels, Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology A:Chemistry 184 p73-77 (2006). I've only got 250 mg of the stuff but it should be sufficient to dye several 10X10cm piece. I would expect that the dye on cloth will be slightly different than the powdered dye. Daniels reports that the dye comes out slightly redder on wool and more blue on cotton and nylon, with the sequence being wool : silk : linen : cotton : nylon. To my mismatched-socks-looks-ok-to-me eye the powder is a very close match to the bar on the front page comparison chart labeled "Tyrian Purple (Imperial Purple) (Hex: #66023C) (RGB: 102, 2, 60)" __________. The actual color produced by extracting snail juice can vary quite a bit. During the dying process, the water soluble leuco form of 6,6'-dibromoindigo can photodebrominate under UV, which renders the shade more blueish and less purple. Two debrominations yield plain old indigo. Sex, age and species differences in the various Murex shells give different amounts of mono and dibromoindigorubin which are more of a reddish purple. These also can photodebrominate to give the quite red indirubin. I'll dig out the references and add this if it seems appropriate. Hey, this is my first edit so cut me some slack. -- Brochis 05:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Quote from the insight book:
The color of the cloak with which Jesus Christ was clothed on the day of his execution has caused some persons to argue that a discrepancy exists in the Bible record with reference to this garment. Matthew said that the soldiers “draped him with a scarlet cloak” (Mt 27:28), while Mark and John say that it was purple. (Mr 15:17; Joh 19:2) However, instead of being a discrepancy, such a variation in describing the garment’s color merely gives evidence of the individuality of the Gospel writers and the fact that they were not in collusion. Matthew described the cloak as it appeared to him, that is, according to his evaluation of color, and he emphasized the garment’s red hue. John and Mark subdued the red tint, calling it purple. “Purple” can be applied to any color having components of both blue and red. So, Mark and John agree with Matthew that the garment was red to some extent. Of course, background and light reflection could have given it different casts. A body of water varies in color at different times, depending upon the particular color of the sky and the reflection of light at a given time. So, when such factors are considered, it is seen that the Gospel writers were not in conflict in describing the color of the cloak that mocking Roman soldiers clothed Christ with on the last day of his human life.
Somebody hasn't read Jacoby well enough.In his 2000 article "The production of silk textiles in Latin Greece" (in Τεχνογνωσία στη λατινοκρατούμενη Ελλάδα [Technology in Latin-Occupied Greece],(Ημερίδα, Αθήνα, 8 Φεβρουαρίου 1997, Γεννάδειος Βιβλιοθηκη), Athens: Politistiko Technologiko Idryma ETBA, 2000) he has found a reference to athenian, euripian and karystian fishermen harvesting purple-giving molluscs at Gyaros - in 1208. He links this to athenian shellfish mounds from the medieval period. Should be corrected in the main text.
The text implies a range of colours, as do the bullets (3), yet on my monitor I'm seeing only the last 2 while the first bullet has blank space to its right. What's up? Ed8r ( talk) 23:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
This discussion is copied and pasted here by Invertzoo ( talk) 23:44, 4 November 2011 (UTC) from the Gastropod Project talk page:
What is terminology of natural dyes ( purple) from sea snails?
This should be clarified and properly referenced in all of these articles.-- Snek01 ( talk) 21:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The second picture on the right shows a bright, vibrant chromatic purple color that most people would immediately recognize as "royal purple", while Justinian I's cloak and the RGB samples lower in the article show a much darker redder shade consistent with the "clotted blood" color mentioned by Pliny.
While I realize the term "purple" has likely changed meaning since then, the article shows two vastly different shades, states they are the same thing, then doesn't explain why. I'm in no way a subject matter expert, so many somebody can help out. Bravo Foxtrot ( talk) 15:34, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
This article should only be about the dye - there should be a separate article about its chemistry. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 15:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
http://www.chriscooksey.demon.co.uk/tyrian/
The CMYK for websites doesn't seem to make sense. It's a bright magenta sort of colour. When I turn the RGB one into CMYK I get C52 m99 y81 k7, which looks more like what it should be. 87.246.103.137 ( talk) 12:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to best deal with this. No one takes any claims of Phoenicans in Mexico seriously today, but such ideas were very popular up through the middle of the 20th century. I do know that The hyperdiffusionist Grafton Elliot Smith wrote that "After a very thorough and critical analysis of all the facts of this truly remarkable case of transmission of an extraordinary custom, Mrs. Nuttall justly concludes that “it seems almost easier to believe that certain elements of an ancient European culture were at one time, and perhaps once only, actually transmitted by the traditional small band of . . . Mediterranean seafarers, than to explain how, under totally different conditions of race and climate, the identical ideas and customs should have arisen ” (pp. 383 and 384)." Dougweller ( talk) 15:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the [citation needed] tags, replacing them with in-line citations from the two new sources (4 and 17) that I've added. Omnitaus ( talk) 19:48, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
I was comparing the english wiki and the italian wiki and they show two different colours for tyrian purple. The italian one is RGB (178; 42; 35) HEX #B22A23 __________ it is a shade of red and indeed it is called also red purple in italian. The italian wiki also points out that the english word purple, that for the image of the cloth painted with dibromoindigo in the top of this article, is called violet in italian and is not the true purpura (porpora).
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porpora
19:56, 14 October 2017 (UTC) Connacht ( talk)
Considering its description as reddish-purple and hue on the HSV system, it would seem like a good idea to add this to the list and category of shades of magenta and/or red-violet. 165.225.39.71 ( talk) 20:21, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
the section labelled History says that this dye remained in use "until 1453 AD, with the fall of Constantinople." lower down, in the Background section it says that production, "came to an abrupt end with the sack of Constantinople in 1204." picky of me to note that there's only 250 years difference but this needs to be resolved. Constantinople was sacked as part of the fourth Crusade in 1204, but continued to operate as the centre of the Latin Empire of Constantinople until 1261 when it reverted to the Byzantine Empire until 1453 when it was conquered by the Ottoman Turks and became part of their empire. the source cited for the 1453 quote says, on page 25, "In areas ruled by Byzantium, the industry continued until the Turkish conquest of the city in 1453, and Pope Paul II's decree of 1464 that cardinals' robes should, henceforth, be dyed with kermes (an insect dye) rather than whelk dye, is usually considered to indicate a response to the final loss of the industry." I don't have access to the second source for the 1204 quote, but I think it possible that the Wikipedian who wrote the 1204 comment has simply confused sack and fall without realising that they are very different things. Cottonshirt τ 03:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
the name Tyrian purple does not refer to tyre of Lebanon but the more ancient kingdoms like Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) אמיר יוגב ( talk) 06:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)