This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tvrtko I of Bosnia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Tvrtko I of Bosnia has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 23, 2017. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Tvrtko I, the first
King of Bosnia, maintained cordial relations with all three churches in his realm—
Bosnian,
Catholic, and
Orthodox? | ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on March 10, 2020, March 10, 2021, and March 10, 2024. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There's a mention of Slavonia among Tvrtko's conquests, but this is incoherent with other descriptions. While the medieval meaning of Slavonia was much larger than today, it was largely towards the west, not towards the south. Does someone have access to the full text of Fine (1994) page 398? @ Surtsicna added this back in 2016. -- Joy ( talk) 18:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refuge with Tvrtko, were now able to make their return to Croatia.
John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John's title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him.
Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia and Croatia south of Velebit—including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia.
Na poč. 1387. pošao je s bratom Vukom na čelu bosanske vojske u pomoć svrgnutom zagrebačkom biskupu Pavlu Horvatu i dvojici pobunjenih hrvatskih velikaša, banu Ivanišu Horvatu i vranskom prioru Ivanu Paližni. Usput su opljačkali posjede Žigmundovih pristaša Zrinskih. Potkraj 1388. Hrvoje je s bratom Vojislavom bio zauzet događajima u Dalmaciji [...]
Kraljica Marija u lipnju je oslobođena, a 14. IX. 1387. posjede Horvatâ predala je Gorjanskima.
Kao jedan od najvjernijih pristaša kraljice Marije i njezina muža kralja Žigmunda, Nikola je 1387. bio jedan od vojvoda u pohodu kraljevske vojske koja je pobunjene pristaše braće Horvat potisnula preko Drave i tamo ih u nekoliko bitaka pobijedila. Nikola je potom Ivaniša Horvata opkolio u Požegi i prisilio na predaju, ali je ovaj – dok je Nikola pošao u Mačvu da je otme Srbima – uspio iz zarobljeništva pobjeći u Bosnu svojemu savezniku kralju Tvrtku. Nikoli su se te godine predali zagrebački Gradec i Kaptol, a za zasluge ga je Žigmund imenovao mačvanskim banom. Nikola je 1387–89. uspješno suzbijao provale Ivaniša Horvata preko Save u istočnu Slavoniju, a uspio je svojega tasta, kneza Lazara, nagovoriti da prestane podupirati Horvata.
Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refugc with Tvrtko, were now able to make their retum to Croatia. Tvrtko himself also čame out openly for Naples in the course of 1387. He sent his own armies into Hungarian Dalmatia, in particular into the strip of coastland betvveen Zadar and Dubrovnik. Actively helped by John of Paližna and Hrvoje, Tvrtko established his suzcrainty over ali the towns between these two cities, though not including Zadar and Dubrovnik themselves; thus Split, Omiš, Trogir, Šibenik, and even sevcral Adriatic islands submitted to Tvrtko. He issucd charters confirming their existing privileges, including their rights to remain self-governing under their own town councils and existing law codes. Tvrtko evidently intended to retain these towns for Bosnia. John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia, and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John’s title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him. Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia, and Croatia south of Velebit — including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia.౪ Santa ౪ 99° 20:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I noticed we use File:Kraljevina Bosna 1391.png, while File:Medieval Bosnian State Expansion.svg exists with Latin labels and vector graphics, as well as not being kind of cut off at the western and eastern edges. The only substantial difference in the pictures seems to be not attributing the upper valley of the Una and Unac to Tvrtko in the west, but it does attribute Konavle to him in the south. Which is more accurate? -- Joy ( talk) 06:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The article in Croatian Encyclopedia about Tvrtko [6] says:
Početkom 1377. preoteo je Đurađu Balšiću Trebinje, Konavle i Dračevicu, čime je pod svoju vlast okupio znatan dio područja koje su nekoć držali Nemanjići.
That seems pretty clear. Their article about the Nelipčić family [7] mentions "Srb, Ostrog i Unac" as properties of them and in turn Louis I of Hungary in 1345:
Preslaba da mu se odupre, Vladislava se, nakon kraćeg otpora, odlučila izmiriti s kraljem, kojemu je osim Knina vratila i Počitelj, Srb, Ostrog i Unac (1345).
It's really unclear from the rest of the text what might have happened there 42 years after that. -- Joy ( talk) 06:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
[8] shows
Santasa99 added this in 2021, saying this map is better sourced (per Vego and Ćorović), and is much nicely rendered
While looking at it, I also noticed is that the PNG map actually has incoherent source maps, because they differ between one another - the 1935 Ćorović map shows Pelješac as well as the entire area between Dubrovnik and Ston under Tvrtko, but the 1957 Vego map does not; likewise they seem to differ for the coastal part of Konavle. -- Joy ( talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tvrtko I of Bosnia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Tvrtko I of Bosnia has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 23, 2017. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Tvrtko I, the first
King of Bosnia, maintained cordial relations with all three churches in his realm—
Bosnian,
Catholic, and
Orthodox? | ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on March 10, 2020, March 10, 2021, and March 10, 2024. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There's a mention of Slavonia among Tvrtko's conquests, but this is incoherent with other descriptions. While the medieval meaning of Slavonia was much larger than today, it was largely towards the west, not towards the south. Does someone have access to the full text of Fine (1994) page 398? @ Surtsicna added this back in 2016. -- Joy ( talk) 18:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refuge with Tvrtko, were now able to make their return to Croatia.
John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John's title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him.
Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia and Croatia south of Velebit—including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia.
Na poč. 1387. pošao je s bratom Vukom na čelu bosanske vojske u pomoć svrgnutom zagrebačkom biskupu Pavlu Horvatu i dvojici pobunjenih hrvatskih velikaša, banu Ivanišu Horvatu i vranskom prioru Ivanu Paližni. Usput su opljačkali posjede Žigmundovih pristaša Zrinskih. Potkraj 1388. Hrvoje je s bratom Vojislavom bio zauzet događajima u Dalmaciji [...]
Kraljica Marija u lipnju je oslobođena, a 14. IX. 1387. posjede Horvatâ predala je Gorjanskima.
Kao jedan od najvjernijih pristaša kraljice Marije i njezina muža kralja Žigmunda, Nikola je 1387. bio jedan od vojvoda u pohodu kraljevske vojske koja je pobunjene pristaše braće Horvat potisnula preko Drave i tamo ih u nekoliko bitaka pobijedila. Nikola je potom Ivaniša Horvata opkolio u Požegi i prisilio na predaju, ali je ovaj – dok je Nikola pošao u Mačvu da je otme Srbima – uspio iz zarobljeništva pobjeći u Bosnu svojemu savezniku kralju Tvrtku. Nikoli su se te godine predali zagrebački Gradec i Kaptol, a za zasluge ga je Žigmund imenovao mačvanskim banom. Nikola je 1387–89. uspješno suzbijao provale Ivaniša Horvata preko Save u istočnu Slavoniju, a uspio je svojega tasta, kneza Lazara, nagovoriti da prestane podupirati Horvata.
Soon Bosnian and Croatian troops were campaigning together on behalf of Naples in Croatia in the region around Zagreb. And by the end of the year, 1387, the Bosnians and their Croatian allies were in control of most of Croatia and Slavonia. The Horvats, who had sought refugc with Tvrtko, were now able to make their retum to Croatia. Tvrtko himself also čame out openly for Naples in the course of 1387. He sent his own armies into Hungarian Dalmatia, in particular into the strip of coastland betvveen Zadar and Dubrovnik. Actively helped by John of Paližna and Hrvoje, Tvrtko established his suzcrainty over ali the towns between these two cities, though not including Zadar and Dubrovnik themselves; thus Split, Omiš, Trogir, Šibenik, and even sevcral Adriatic islands submitted to Tvrtko. He issucd charters confirming their existing privileges, including their rights to remain self-governing under their own town councils and existing law codes. Tvrtko evidently intended to retain these towns for Bosnia. John of Paližna had been named Ban of Croatia, Dalmatia, and Slavonia in 1385 by the ill-fated Charles of Naples. Tvrtko recognized John’s title and appointed him to be his deputy for various Dalmatian towns that submitted to him. Some of the towns seem to have been unhappy with the change, preferring as their suzerain the more distant Hungary to near-by Bosnia. Tvrtko never tried to force his rule upon either Zadar or Dubrovnik. Thus between 1387 and 1389 Tvrtko made himself overlord over a large part of Slavonia, Dalmatia, and Croatia south of Velebit — including Knin, Ostrovica, and Klis. On behalf of Naples his troops even passed through Slavonia into Srem. Though these actions were carried out in the name of Naples, it is evident that Tvrtko and his own vassal, Hrvoje, with whom he was closely associated in this venture, were acting for themselves and it was they who held the actual authority in much of this vast area. In 1390 Tvrtko began to call himself King of Croatia and Dalmatia.౪ Santa ౪ 99° 20:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
I noticed we use File:Kraljevina Bosna 1391.png, while File:Medieval Bosnian State Expansion.svg exists with Latin labels and vector graphics, as well as not being kind of cut off at the western and eastern edges. The only substantial difference in the pictures seems to be not attributing the upper valley of the Una and Unac to Tvrtko in the west, but it does attribute Konavle to him in the south. Which is more accurate? -- Joy ( talk) 06:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The article in Croatian Encyclopedia about Tvrtko [6] says:
Početkom 1377. preoteo je Đurađu Balšiću Trebinje, Konavle i Dračevicu, čime je pod svoju vlast okupio znatan dio područja koje su nekoć držali Nemanjići.
That seems pretty clear. Their article about the Nelipčić family [7] mentions "Srb, Ostrog i Unac" as properties of them and in turn Louis I of Hungary in 1345:
Preslaba da mu se odupre, Vladislava se, nakon kraćeg otpora, odlučila izmiriti s kraljem, kojemu je osim Knina vratila i Počitelj, Srb, Ostrog i Unac (1345).
It's really unclear from the rest of the text what might have happened there 42 years after that. -- Joy ( talk) 06:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
[8] shows
Santasa99 added this in 2021, saying this map is better sourced (per Vego and Ćorović), and is much nicely rendered
While looking at it, I also noticed is that the PNG map actually has incoherent source maps, because they differ between one another - the 1935 Ćorović map shows Pelješac as well as the entire area between Dubrovnik and Ston under Tvrtko, but the 1957 Vego map does not; likewise they seem to differ for the coastal part of Konavle. -- Joy ( talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)