This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
You don't know what the tag is used for I am afraid, and calling me disruptive and rude for pointing it out is extremely unfair. Did you read this Wikipedia:POV check? I don't think you have. The policy says "The POV check template, {{POV-check|date=December 2007}} , may be added to an article which you feel may need to be edited to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Add the template at the top of the article, and then explain your reasons on the talk page of the article that needs checking (not the talk pages of the template or this article)."
Don't worry, I am extremely well aware of how Wikipedia works, and I couldn't see anything in the talk page. There needs to be a detailed explanation of the disagreements, otherwise such placement of template is what is disruptive. I hope that you will agree with this? That template as is was used for harrassment of the article instead of some legitimate encyclopedic behavior. Tags without explanations, or talk pages without discussions are grounds for the immediate removal of such tags. Please keep that in mind. Baristarim 06:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I've have nominated this article to be chcked for its neutrality, since it's entirely based one a single source. Stop removing the POV check tag. -- Mardavich 06:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is totally biased and uses only ONE single book (!) as a reference. It claims societies as "Turco-Persian" that were either not Turkic (Ghaznavids, Mughals, etc) or not Persian (Qarakhanids). It totally contradicts articles of Iranica and EI, and is biased toward a Turkish view of history. Only the title Turkic suprimacy for the Ghaznavid era is pure POV, because the Ghaznavids neither considered themselvs Turks, nor promoted any Turkish nationalism, language, or culture. Besides that, a culture does not become "Turkic" or "Persian" only because some ruler belongs to one of these groups. The present president of Israel is an ethnic Persian, he even speaks Persian at home and owns a Persian radio-station in Israel. But this does not mean that Israel is a "Perso-Jewish state"! The early Turks were a tiny minority in a vast empire, and their original Turkic background had NO influence on the established traditions of the conquered lands! Neither Mongol nor Turkic cultures had any signifcant influence on Islamic culture - they themselvs were assimilated into that culture. The Islamic culture is a continuiation of many cultures that started in Elam. It was conquered by the Persians who were assimilated into that culture (which means that the so-called Persianate culture does not have a Persian origin). It reached the Sassanids via the previous Persian dynasties. After it's conquest by the Arabs, it was Islamized in religion, but not in culture - the Arabic rulers were assimilated into that culture. And again, when the Turks and Mongols arrived, they had NO influence on this ancient culture. The Turco-Persian culture is ONLY the dual-culture of the Timurid era, and to some extent the society of Safavid-Persia. It means that the society was splitted into two equally strong and influential groups: Persians and Turkics. All previous dynasties - from Ghaznavids to Seljuqs - were NOT Turkic in culture or identity. They had no interest in their "Turkishness" (as a total contrast to Mir Ali Sher Nava'i's Turkic nationalism), they had no interest in Turkic languages (the Ghaznavids were the patrons of Persia's anti-Arab and anti-Turkic national epic Shahnameh), and they had no interest in any Turkic identity (as attested by archiological discoveries in Afghanistan, medieval works of the Ghaznavid era, linking the Ghaznavids to the legendary Indo-Iranian past of the region). A good article needs to be neutral ... this one is not! Tājik 01:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Extract from Iranica:
... The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. ... The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans' life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. ... Persianisation of the state apparatus was accompanied by the Persianisation of high culture at the Ghaznavid court. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them. ... The Ghaznavids thus present the phenomenon of a dynasty of Turkish slave origin which became culturally Persianised to a perceptibly higher degree than other contemporary dynasties of Turkish origin ... [1]
I would not call that "Turko-Persian tradition"!
Even more interesting:
“ | ... Adjacent to the minaret of Mas'ud (formerly, and wrongfully, attributed to Sultan Mahmud), the Italian Archaeological Mission in Afghanistan excavated a palace of his, notable for what was apparently a Persian poetic text on marble slabs forming a dado round an inner courtyard. The poem extolls the sultan and his forebears both as Muslim ghāzīs and as heroes connected with the Iranian epic, legendary past (see Bombaci). ... | ” |
Another article of the Iranica states:
“ | ... here one might bear in mind that non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkish heroes or Muslim saints ... [2] | ” |
Tājik 02:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
(copied from Talk:Turkic peoples)
Claiming that the Mughals were a Turkic people, and mentioning some odd Turkish name given to them (Babür İmparatorluğu, a name that does not appear in ANY historical or scholarly sources), is pure POV.
The Mughals were neither Turks in ethnicity (they were originally Mongols, descening from the Timurid and other Chingizid families of Central Asia --> Berlas Mongols), nor in language (starting with Humayun, they were certainly and evidently Persian-speakers; Akbar did not even know Chaghatay - he had to translate his grandfather's memos into Persian to read them! Later, the Mughals were evidently Urdu speaking!)
I do not know why certain users keep putting that POV paragraph into the article. They claim that it is sourced ... but not all sources are good. Why do they ignore the whole bunch of other, mostly authoritative sources (such as the works of Prof. B.F. Manz, THE leading expert on Timurid and Turco-Mongol history; see: B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006)?! They only stick to certain versions of the Britannica ... only those that suite them. They totally ignore other sections of Britannica that actually have a totally different opinion on the issue. For example this one:
The Columbia Encyclopedia states:
One of the most important and strongest sources - only second to Prof. B.F. Manz's article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam - is the article of Prof. F. Lehmann in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Referring to Babur, he states:
The paragraph about the Mughals should be removed. Even IF some people believe that they should be listed, only because their FIRST ruler ( Babur) wrote his memoires in Turkic, the paragraph should be removed because it's controversial. Memoires do not prove anything, especially in regard of the fact that Humayun's biography is written in Persian (by his sister Gulbadan Begum), and that Shah Bahadur II is known as one of the greatest Urdu poets!
There are no historical documents porving the claim that the Mughals were a "Turkic people" ... NONE of the official state-documents of the empire was in ANY Turkic language, NONE of the ruling kings is known as a Turkic writer, nationalists, or whatever. If someone disputes these facts, he should provide reliable sources!
In no way the Mughals were a "Turkic people" ... neither in origin, nor in ethnicity, culture, language, or influence.
Tājik 02:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The article is well-sourced. If you check the references, you'll see that the authours of these works are famous historians. These works are published by world wide recognized places such as Cambridge University Press, Columbia University Press, University of Chicago Press, Barnes and Noble ... These are very strong reliable sources. If the information given here is not paralel to iranica, this might indicate that the iranica favours and publishes the articles suitable for the iranian/persian pov. In the article, there are also references to Richard Nelson Frye, Marshall Hodgson, Clifford Edmund Bosworth, Ishtiaq Ahmed, and Ehsan Yarshater. Iranica published some works of F.N. Frye but maybe neglegted these cited in this article. If you disregard his work here, and favour the one in iranica, this is a contradiction. Maybe this is just because the iranica selects among the papers of F.N. Frye which is suitable to iranian pov and ignoring or disregarding the others. From now on, perhaps, better to rely on sources other than iranica in order to reflect NPOV. Regards. E104421 08:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay I got the book and will see what the book says.. I think any edits should be discussed here with relavent sources and then we put it in? What do you guys think? -- alidoostzadeh 17:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | ... Bis 1562 war das Leben am Moghulhofe rein persisch-türkisch gewesen. Man kleidete sich persisch, hatte persische Hofmaler im Dienste, schrieb persische und türkische Gedichte, baute in dem persischen Stil mit Wänden aus buntglasierten Kacheln und Zwiebelkuppeln. Während der nächsten zehn Jahre mischte sich damit immer mehr die Tradition der indischen Mohammedaner. Und während Akbars letzten 35 Jahren entstand eine hindu-mohammedanische Mischkultur ... Die Hofsprache blieb Persisch, aber in dieser wurden auch Hindu-Themen gefeiert, wie etwa der Opfertod der schönen Rupmati (...) oder der einer Sati (...) | ” |
The term Turko-Persian Tradition does not exists academically and it is a factitious entry! Check the Encyclopaedia Iranica to confirm -- The correct name for that culture is the Persianate culture not the "Turko-Persian". Turkophones (mostly of mixed race and Persianized in culture) only spoke in Turkic dialects and were in the military. That is not enough participation in creating and forming the culture to deserve the name "Turko-Persian Tradition" – This is misinformation. All the elements in that area, which have to do with tradition and culture, were drawn from the Iranian culture and the Islamic faith, not much Turkic elements (like shamanism, yurts etc.) were incorporated in. That is what makes the name "Turko-Persian" an imaginary one and therefore the entry should be deleted.
I agree with Ali. The term "Turco-Persian" (the correct spelling is with a "c") does exist, even Iranica uses it (see the article "Safawid dynasty"), so does the EI. However, "Turco-Persian" is not much different from " Persianate". That's also the reason why I put the "neutrality" tag into the article. The "Turco-Persian" society was a not a dual culture, ruled by two seperate and equal groups ... it was still a fully Persianate culture, except that the rulers were mostly Turks or Turkic-speaking Mongols (who - in some literature - are also wrongly discribed as "Turks"). Tājik 09:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Delete: This article should be deleted. What the article suggests, does not exist. ( ArmanJan 14:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
I removed the deletion survey since an AfD about this was just closed this morning, and that's not how deletion process works... Deletions are not decided in the talk pages of articles. Thanks Baristarim 17:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, from the reading I have done, and I can post several quotes, the invading Turkic armies adopted Iranian customs and culture. Infact, they even left administration purposes to the Iranians. I dont know where the term "Turko-Persian" Tradition comes from, because even the Ottomans adopted the Persian language for their own cultural language, which suggests that Turkic culture was not mixed with Iranian culture, but rather seperate, and that Iranian culture was preferred. Again, I do not know where the term "Turko-Persian Tradition" comes from and it seems very misleading. I have heard of the term "Turko-Persian Empires" before, but never of this term. Also, it should be said that not even the term Islamic culture is valid, because most, if not all, of Islamic culture is basically practices adopted from Iran after the Arabs conquered it. With this said, I'm not saying that Turkic peoples did not leave their traces, because of course they did, this is evident by the Turkic dialects spoke in the Middle East today, however, if we are speaking of culture and tradition, there was only one that was adopted by most peoples, and those were Iranian, from Abbasid Arabs, to the Turkic tribes, to the Mongols. Azerbaijani 19:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay the original user who wrote the article just copy and pasted mainly from one article which has used the term alot. Let me bring this relavent portion which I think should clarify this term from the same article: This composite culture was the beginning of the Turko-Persian variant of Islamicate culture. It was "Persianate" in that it was centered on a lettered tradition of Iranian origin; it was Turkish in so far as it was for many generations patronized by rulers of Turkic ancestry; and it was "Islamicate" in that Islamic notions of virtue, permanence, and excellence infused discourse about public issues as well as the religious affairs of the Muslims, who were the presiding elite (Hodgson 1974 i:58). (pg 12, : The Turko-Persian Tradition, Robert L. Canfield). Thus the term is not pan-turkist or pan anything, but it clarifies that the culture was Persianate and the rulers and patronizers were Turkic. (Ghaznavids, Seljuqids, Moghuls of India..etc.). -- alidoostzadeh 05:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I thought that the changes are self-evident and housekeeping in nature: The historical sub-sections brought under a common History header, seems an obvious clean-up. On the other hand, if your RV aimed at preventing nationalistic vandalism, it can only be endorsed. For the notation about local specifics of the Islamic tenets embraced by multitude of pre-Islamic local traditions, and attitudes toward women in particular, a {fact} notation would suffice, since the geographical cultural variations are well known and documented. Barefact 00:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Tne Seljuq successors of Kara-Khanid Khanate in Transoxiana brought this culture westward into Persia, Iraq, and Syria. Seljuqs won a decisive battle with the Ghaznavids and then swept into Khurasan, they brought Turko-Persian Islamic culture westward into western Persia and Iraq..
So the Seljuqs brought Persian culture to Persia?
The Kara-Khanids were pastoralists of noble Turkic backgrounds, and they cherished their Turkic ways. As they gained strength they fostered development of a new Turkish literature alongside the Persian and Arabic literatures that had arisen earlier. This marked the beginning of the unique Turko-Persian culture.
Where are the sources? The Seljuqs also did not support Turkish literature. I think these statements are contradictory. -- alidoostzadeh 02:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the tradition started way earlier than listed in the article. The first revolt in the Caliphate happened ca 800, and it brought a joined Turko-Persian political influence, which was benefiting the Persian scribes-bureaucracy and Turkic commanders. It was not a cultural event, but still it is inseparate from the Turko-Persian syncretism way before Ghaznavids and Qarakhanids. The Turko-Persian syncretism produced Samanids whose culture and political system develped into and influenced Ghaznavids and Qarakhanids. In 977, Ibn Haukal in his "Face of the Earth" states that Azeri and Persian languages were used as Lingua Franca across the Caucasus. Ditto Central Asia, Turkic, Sogdian and Persian languages were used as Lingua Franca, making many intellectuals able to learn Persian literature. Barefact 06:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The summary phrase you deleted "This marked the beginning of the unique Turko-Persian culture." needs to be restored. Barefact 11:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing a section to address the substance of the Turko-Persian syncretism, its Literature. To list too much is impossible, but there are works that were known by all, spread everywhere, and were widely popular throughout the Turko-Persian cultural zone. These, in my opinion, are 1001 night, Hodja Nassreddin in all his names and incarnations, Nizami, Saadi, Baburname, Indian folk tales, Afgan jokes, and maybe a few more names and titles. Any comments? Barefact 07:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
guys, even when naming your source, you cannot just present entire paragraphs copied from a book. can we remove the copyvio, agree on a title, and merge these articles into a single legal one now? dab (𒁳) 16:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm chiming in as the closer of the AFD. Remove the parts that constitute a copyvio (they cannot be there for any reason even if cited). As for merging, merging is an editorial decision that can be made regardless of the outcome of an AFD - merging does not delete an article, nor does it result in deleted content. Therefore, merging and redirecting after a speedily kept (or regularly kept) AFD is fine. -- Core desat 22:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
An extract from an Email, I was forwarded to from Barefact. The real name of a wikipedian is changed to XXXXXX
"Hi XXXXXX, I see no violation of the copyright concerning my Introduction to Turco-Persia in Historical Perspective, and I do not agree with any attempt to use the term to represent nationalistic interests. Best, Robert L. Canfield"
Dear Dr. R. Canfield,
I used selections from your book "Turko-Persia in historical perspective", the Introduction section, as a backbone for an article I called "Turko-Persian Tradition" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turko-Persian_tradition.
As one of contributors to Wikipedia, I was bothered that WP is often used as a tool of hidden racial agendas, Now this article is being threatened by the very groups that propagate the hidden racial agenda. They accuse the writer (me) of copyright violation, i.e. violation of your copyrights, using the cited sections of the book in the article.
I am asking your endorsement of the use of your work in the article. All sections taken from your Introduction are (or initially were ) clearly referenced, and Robert Canfield as the author is given a proper credit. Would you please confirm that as an author you allow WP to use the posted sections of your work and do not support the copyright violation claim.
I, and the multitude of other WP users, will be greatful for your kind permission. XXXXXXX —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alex Bakharev ( talk • contribs) 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
The Bernard Lewis quote has everything to do with the article. It talks about Iranian Islam being brought to Turks and Persian culture being present in non-Persian land. You can't remove a certain part of Lewis and then leave another part. Second, I am not proxying for anyone, if I see good information on the talkpage I will add it. Finally there is no copy-right violation as it is a cquote. It can be rephrased and rewritten, if the quote is too long. But it should be incorporated into the article, and reworded. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 23:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
You don't know what the tag is used for I am afraid, and calling me disruptive and rude for pointing it out is extremely unfair. Did you read this Wikipedia:POV check? I don't think you have. The policy says "The POV check template, {{POV-check|date=December 2007}} , may be added to an article which you feel may need to be edited to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Add the template at the top of the article, and then explain your reasons on the talk page of the article that needs checking (not the talk pages of the template or this article)."
Don't worry, I am extremely well aware of how Wikipedia works, and I couldn't see anything in the talk page. There needs to be a detailed explanation of the disagreements, otherwise such placement of template is what is disruptive. I hope that you will agree with this? That template as is was used for harrassment of the article instead of some legitimate encyclopedic behavior. Tags without explanations, or talk pages without discussions are grounds for the immediate removal of such tags. Please keep that in mind. Baristarim 06:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I've have nominated this article to be chcked for its neutrality, since it's entirely based one a single source. Stop removing the POV check tag. -- Mardavich 06:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is totally biased and uses only ONE single book (!) as a reference. It claims societies as "Turco-Persian" that were either not Turkic (Ghaznavids, Mughals, etc) or not Persian (Qarakhanids). It totally contradicts articles of Iranica and EI, and is biased toward a Turkish view of history. Only the title Turkic suprimacy for the Ghaznavid era is pure POV, because the Ghaznavids neither considered themselvs Turks, nor promoted any Turkish nationalism, language, or culture. Besides that, a culture does not become "Turkic" or "Persian" only because some ruler belongs to one of these groups. The present president of Israel is an ethnic Persian, he even speaks Persian at home and owns a Persian radio-station in Israel. But this does not mean that Israel is a "Perso-Jewish state"! The early Turks were a tiny minority in a vast empire, and their original Turkic background had NO influence on the established traditions of the conquered lands! Neither Mongol nor Turkic cultures had any signifcant influence on Islamic culture - they themselvs were assimilated into that culture. The Islamic culture is a continuiation of many cultures that started in Elam. It was conquered by the Persians who were assimilated into that culture (which means that the so-called Persianate culture does not have a Persian origin). It reached the Sassanids via the previous Persian dynasties. After it's conquest by the Arabs, it was Islamized in religion, but not in culture - the Arabic rulers were assimilated into that culture. And again, when the Turks and Mongols arrived, they had NO influence on this ancient culture. The Turco-Persian culture is ONLY the dual-culture of the Timurid era, and to some extent the society of Safavid-Persia. It means that the society was splitted into two equally strong and influential groups: Persians and Turkics. All previous dynasties - from Ghaznavids to Seljuqs - were NOT Turkic in culture or identity. They had no interest in their "Turkishness" (as a total contrast to Mir Ali Sher Nava'i's Turkic nationalism), they had no interest in Turkic languages (the Ghaznavids were the patrons of Persia's anti-Arab and anti-Turkic national epic Shahnameh), and they had no interest in any Turkic identity (as attested by archiological discoveries in Afghanistan, medieval works of the Ghaznavid era, linking the Ghaznavids to the legendary Indo-Iranian past of the region). A good article needs to be neutral ... this one is not! Tājik 01:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Extract from Iranica:
... The Ghaznavid sultans were ethnically Turkish, but the sources, all in Arabic or Persian, do not allow us to estimate the persistence of Turkish practices and ways of thought amongst them. ... The fact that the personnel of the bureaucracy which directed the day-to-day running of the state, and which raised the revenue to support the sultans' life-style and to finance the professional army, were Persians who carried on the administrative traditions of the Samanids, only strengthened this conception of secular power. ... Persianisation of the state apparatus was accompanied by the Persianisation of high culture at the Ghaznavid court. The offices of vizier, treasurer, chief secretary, head of the war department, etc., were the preserves of Persians, and no Turks are recorded as ever having held them. ... The Ghaznavids thus present the phenomenon of a dynasty of Turkish slave origin which became culturally Persianised to a perceptibly higher degree than other contemporary dynasties of Turkish origin ... [1]
I would not call that "Turko-Persian tradition"!
Even more interesting:
“ | ... Adjacent to the minaret of Mas'ud (formerly, and wrongfully, attributed to Sultan Mahmud), the Italian Archaeological Mission in Afghanistan excavated a palace of his, notable for what was apparently a Persian poetic text on marble slabs forming a dado round an inner courtyard. The poem extolls the sultan and his forebears both as Muslim ghāzīs and as heroes connected with the Iranian epic, legendary past (see Bombaci). ... | ” |
Another article of the Iranica states:
“ | ... here one might bear in mind that non-Persian dynasties such as the Ghaznavids, Saljuqs and Ilkhanids were rapidly to adopt the Persian language and have their origins traced back to the ancient kings of Persia rather than to Turkish heroes or Muslim saints ... [2] | ” |
Tājik 02:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
(copied from Talk:Turkic peoples)
Claiming that the Mughals were a Turkic people, and mentioning some odd Turkish name given to them (Babür İmparatorluğu, a name that does not appear in ANY historical or scholarly sources), is pure POV.
The Mughals were neither Turks in ethnicity (they were originally Mongols, descening from the Timurid and other Chingizid families of Central Asia --> Berlas Mongols), nor in language (starting with Humayun, they were certainly and evidently Persian-speakers; Akbar did not even know Chaghatay - he had to translate his grandfather's memos into Persian to read them! Later, the Mughals were evidently Urdu speaking!)
I do not know why certain users keep putting that POV paragraph into the article. They claim that it is sourced ... but not all sources are good. Why do they ignore the whole bunch of other, mostly authoritative sources (such as the works of Prof. B.F. Manz, THE leading expert on Timurid and Turco-Mongol history; see: B.F. Manz, "Tīmūr Lang", in Encyclopaedia of Islam, Online Edition, 2006)?! They only stick to certain versions of the Britannica ... only those that suite them. They totally ignore other sections of Britannica that actually have a totally different opinion on the issue. For example this one:
The Columbia Encyclopedia states:
One of the most important and strongest sources - only second to Prof. B.F. Manz's article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam - is the article of Prof. F. Lehmann in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. Referring to Babur, he states:
The paragraph about the Mughals should be removed. Even IF some people believe that they should be listed, only because their FIRST ruler ( Babur) wrote his memoires in Turkic, the paragraph should be removed because it's controversial. Memoires do not prove anything, especially in regard of the fact that Humayun's biography is written in Persian (by his sister Gulbadan Begum), and that Shah Bahadur II is known as one of the greatest Urdu poets!
There are no historical documents porving the claim that the Mughals were a "Turkic people" ... NONE of the official state-documents of the empire was in ANY Turkic language, NONE of the ruling kings is known as a Turkic writer, nationalists, or whatever. If someone disputes these facts, he should provide reliable sources!
In no way the Mughals were a "Turkic people" ... neither in origin, nor in ethnicity, culture, language, or influence.
Tājik 02:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The article is well-sourced. If you check the references, you'll see that the authours of these works are famous historians. These works are published by world wide recognized places such as Cambridge University Press, Columbia University Press, University of Chicago Press, Barnes and Noble ... These are very strong reliable sources. If the information given here is not paralel to iranica, this might indicate that the iranica favours and publishes the articles suitable for the iranian/persian pov. In the article, there are also references to Richard Nelson Frye, Marshall Hodgson, Clifford Edmund Bosworth, Ishtiaq Ahmed, and Ehsan Yarshater. Iranica published some works of F.N. Frye but maybe neglegted these cited in this article. If you disregard his work here, and favour the one in iranica, this is a contradiction. Maybe this is just because the iranica selects among the papers of F.N. Frye which is suitable to iranian pov and ignoring or disregarding the others. From now on, perhaps, better to rely on sources other than iranica in order to reflect NPOV. Regards. E104421 08:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay I got the book and will see what the book says.. I think any edits should be discussed here with relavent sources and then we put it in? What do you guys think? -- alidoostzadeh 17:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | ... Bis 1562 war das Leben am Moghulhofe rein persisch-türkisch gewesen. Man kleidete sich persisch, hatte persische Hofmaler im Dienste, schrieb persische und türkische Gedichte, baute in dem persischen Stil mit Wänden aus buntglasierten Kacheln und Zwiebelkuppeln. Während der nächsten zehn Jahre mischte sich damit immer mehr die Tradition der indischen Mohammedaner. Und während Akbars letzten 35 Jahren entstand eine hindu-mohammedanische Mischkultur ... Die Hofsprache blieb Persisch, aber in dieser wurden auch Hindu-Themen gefeiert, wie etwa der Opfertod der schönen Rupmati (...) oder der einer Sati (...) | ” |
The term Turko-Persian Tradition does not exists academically and it is a factitious entry! Check the Encyclopaedia Iranica to confirm -- The correct name for that culture is the Persianate culture not the "Turko-Persian". Turkophones (mostly of mixed race and Persianized in culture) only spoke in Turkic dialects and were in the military. That is not enough participation in creating and forming the culture to deserve the name "Turko-Persian Tradition" – This is misinformation. All the elements in that area, which have to do with tradition and culture, were drawn from the Iranian culture and the Islamic faith, not much Turkic elements (like shamanism, yurts etc.) were incorporated in. That is what makes the name "Turko-Persian" an imaginary one and therefore the entry should be deleted.
I agree with Ali. The term "Turco-Persian" (the correct spelling is with a "c") does exist, even Iranica uses it (see the article "Safawid dynasty"), so does the EI. However, "Turco-Persian" is not much different from " Persianate". That's also the reason why I put the "neutrality" tag into the article. The "Turco-Persian" society was a not a dual culture, ruled by two seperate and equal groups ... it was still a fully Persianate culture, except that the rulers were mostly Turks or Turkic-speaking Mongols (who - in some literature - are also wrongly discribed as "Turks"). Tājik 09:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Delete: This article should be deleted. What the article suggests, does not exist. ( ArmanJan 14:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC))
I removed the deletion survey since an AfD about this was just closed this morning, and that's not how deletion process works... Deletions are not decided in the talk pages of articles. Thanks Baristarim 17:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, from the reading I have done, and I can post several quotes, the invading Turkic armies adopted Iranian customs and culture. Infact, they even left administration purposes to the Iranians. I dont know where the term "Turko-Persian" Tradition comes from, because even the Ottomans adopted the Persian language for their own cultural language, which suggests that Turkic culture was not mixed with Iranian culture, but rather seperate, and that Iranian culture was preferred. Again, I do not know where the term "Turko-Persian Tradition" comes from and it seems very misleading. I have heard of the term "Turko-Persian Empires" before, but never of this term. Also, it should be said that not even the term Islamic culture is valid, because most, if not all, of Islamic culture is basically practices adopted from Iran after the Arabs conquered it. With this said, I'm not saying that Turkic peoples did not leave their traces, because of course they did, this is evident by the Turkic dialects spoke in the Middle East today, however, if we are speaking of culture and tradition, there was only one that was adopted by most peoples, and those were Iranian, from Abbasid Arabs, to the Turkic tribes, to the Mongols. Azerbaijani 19:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay the original user who wrote the article just copy and pasted mainly from one article which has used the term alot. Let me bring this relavent portion which I think should clarify this term from the same article: This composite culture was the beginning of the Turko-Persian variant of Islamicate culture. It was "Persianate" in that it was centered on a lettered tradition of Iranian origin; it was Turkish in so far as it was for many generations patronized by rulers of Turkic ancestry; and it was "Islamicate" in that Islamic notions of virtue, permanence, and excellence infused discourse about public issues as well as the religious affairs of the Muslims, who were the presiding elite (Hodgson 1974 i:58). (pg 12, : The Turko-Persian Tradition, Robert L. Canfield). Thus the term is not pan-turkist or pan anything, but it clarifies that the culture was Persianate and the rulers and patronizers were Turkic. (Ghaznavids, Seljuqids, Moghuls of India..etc.). -- alidoostzadeh 05:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I thought that the changes are self-evident and housekeeping in nature: The historical sub-sections brought under a common History header, seems an obvious clean-up. On the other hand, if your RV aimed at preventing nationalistic vandalism, it can only be endorsed. For the notation about local specifics of the Islamic tenets embraced by multitude of pre-Islamic local traditions, and attitudes toward women in particular, a {fact} notation would suffice, since the geographical cultural variations are well known and documented. Barefact 00:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Tne Seljuq successors of Kara-Khanid Khanate in Transoxiana brought this culture westward into Persia, Iraq, and Syria. Seljuqs won a decisive battle with the Ghaznavids and then swept into Khurasan, they brought Turko-Persian Islamic culture westward into western Persia and Iraq..
So the Seljuqs brought Persian culture to Persia?
The Kara-Khanids were pastoralists of noble Turkic backgrounds, and they cherished their Turkic ways. As they gained strength they fostered development of a new Turkish literature alongside the Persian and Arabic literatures that had arisen earlier. This marked the beginning of the unique Turko-Persian culture.
Where are the sources? The Seljuqs also did not support Turkish literature. I think these statements are contradictory. -- alidoostzadeh 02:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the tradition started way earlier than listed in the article. The first revolt in the Caliphate happened ca 800, and it brought a joined Turko-Persian political influence, which was benefiting the Persian scribes-bureaucracy and Turkic commanders. It was not a cultural event, but still it is inseparate from the Turko-Persian syncretism way before Ghaznavids and Qarakhanids. The Turko-Persian syncretism produced Samanids whose culture and political system develped into and influenced Ghaznavids and Qarakhanids. In 977, Ibn Haukal in his "Face of the Earth" states that Azeri and Persian languages were used as Lingua Franca across the Caucasus. Ditto Central Asia, Turkic, Sogdian and Persian languages were used as Lingua Franca, making many intellectuals able to learn Persian literature. Barefact 06:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
The summary phrase you deleted "This marked the beginning of the unique Turko-Persian culture." needs to be restored. Barefact 11:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing a section to address the substance of the Turko-Persian syncretism, its Literature. To list too much is impossible, but there are works that were known by all, spread everywhere, and were widely popular throughout the Turko-Persian cultural zone. These, in my opinion, are 1001 night, Hodja Nassreddin in all his names and incarnations, Nizami, Saadi, Baburname, Indian folk tales, Afgan jokes, and maybe a few more names and titles. Any comments? Barefact 07:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
guys, even when naming your source, you cannot just present entire paragraphs copied from a book. can we remove the copyvio, agree on a title, and merge these articles into a single legal one now? dab (𒁳) 16:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm chiming in as the closer of the AFD. Remove the parts that constitute a copyvio (they cannot be there for any reason even if cited). As for merging, merging is an editorial decision that can be made regardless of the outcome of an AFD - merging does not delete an article, nor does it result in deleted content. Therefore, merging and redirecting after a speedily kept (or regularly kept) AFD is fine. -- Core desat 22:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
An extract from an Email, I was forwarded to from Barefact. The real name of a wikipedian is changed to XXXXXX
"Hi XXXXXX, I see no violation of the copyright concerning my Introduction to Turco-Persia in Historical Perspective, and I do not agree with any attempt to use the term to represent nationalistic interests. Best, Robert L. Canfield"
Dear Dr. R. Canfield,
I used selections from your book "Turko-Persia in historical perspective", the Introduction section, as a backbone for an article I called "Turko-Persian Tradition" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turko-Persian_tradition.
As one of contributors to Wikipedia, I was bothered that WP is often used as a tool of hidden racial agendas, Now this article is being threatened by the very groups that propagate the hidden racial agenda. They accuse the writer (me) of copyright violation, i.e. violation of your copyrights, using the cited sections of the book in the article.
I am asking your endorsement of the use of your work in the article. All sections taken from your Introduction are (or initially were ) clearly referenced, and Robert Canfield as the author is given a proper credit. Would you please confirm that as an author you allow WP to use the posted sections of your work and do not support the copyright violation claim.
I, and the multitude of other WP users, will be greatful for your kind permission. XXXXXXX —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alex Bakharev ( talk • contribs) 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC).
The Bernard Lewis quote has everything to do with the article. It talks about Iranian Islam being brought to Turks and Persian culture being present in non-Persian land. You can't remove a certain part of Lewis and then leave another part. Second, I am not proxying for anyone, if I see good information on the talkpage I will add it. Finally there is no copy-right violation as it is a cquote. It can be rephrased and rewritten, if the quote is too long. But it should be incorporated into the article, and reworded. -- alidoostzadeh ( talk) 23:30, 16 December 2007 (UTC)