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The words "tribe" and "tribalism" are not in common use by anthropologists/sociologists. At the very least, they're not well-defined. See this, from the University of Pennsylvania: http://www.africa.upenn.edu/K-12/Tribe.html Perhaps the article need not exist. Tropical Violet ( talk) 04:06, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Michael Hardy changed the first line of the article from "Tribalism refers to a..." to "Tribalism is a..." He cites this reasoning: "A dog does not refer to an animal; a dog _is_ an animal. The WORD "dog" refers to an animal, but it's usually better to write about the thing rather than about the word." I do not believe this reasoning holds in this case. "Tribalism" is not a social system, really; it is more an ephitet, referring to a specific state of affairs. "Commie pinko bastard" is not an indivudal with Leftist political beliefs; "Commie pinko bastard" refers to an individual with Leftist political beliefs. To say that it "is" suggests that the ephitet is grounded in reality, rather than being one (dim) view of that reality. In other words, if tribalism is the state of affairs where society is divided into many, small groups, then that state of affairs is negative--because tribalism is pejorative. Considering that the rest of the article elucidates the complexities and ambiguities of the pejorative, the initial statement seems jarringly assertive. Jason Godesky 15:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think there were interesting elements that should be merged in from a large passage of the article that was removed. -- Nectarflowed (talk) 17:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have added a fairly large amount of text to account for a parallel definition of the word. I think it was important to capture this meaning of the word. I have deleted as little of the original text as I could, and as a result the entire article doesn't quite flow as well as it used to. Still, I think it's an improvement. The only part I deliberately rewrote was the comments about how racial conflicts and genocide are the result of recent growth into nations and empires. I don't think this is at all true, but I'd like to hear reasons to back it up. My impression is that even with the advent of nations and empires, tribalism (as an us vs them motivational tool) has just morphed into nationalism. The conflicts are quite nasty, but they are typically international, not intranational as the original text implied... and international conflict fits with the original modus operandi of tribalism, and hence does not constitute any sort of shift. I apologize for my harsh tone in the "why are you guys arguing about..." entry (and for forgetting to sign it!). Upon further reflection, I accept the original definition of tribalism as also an appropriate one. Jurgen Hissen 07:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "This usage of the term is unfortunate" seems to eliminate any neutrality from the POV of this article.
There's some debate over the origins of the term " Eskimo," but basically, the Eskimo are the Inuit. It is a name for the Inuit and other, related circumpolar cultures. One of the theories of where this term might have come from, noted in the article, is the Ojibwe term for "eaters of raw meat." This was incorrectly "corrected" to say, "...but they were known to the Inuit by a name translating roughly as 'eaters of raw meat.'" This is incorrect, and with insufficient space for the full rationale in the edit summary, I've put it here. Jason Godesky 20:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
What does tribalism have to do with politics? Jason Godesky 02:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I have replaced certain references to altruism where kin selection is actually the proper term. The support of tribal members for each other stems more from their kinship than from altruism as evidenced by the fact that the same support would not be extended to non-kin or a stranger. Altruism is the support of unrelated individuals for each other without expectation of the favor being returned. Kin selection is the support of related individuals for each other without expectation of the favor being returned. Reciprocity is the support of members of a group (kin or not) with the expectation of the favor being returned. PAR 23:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't really add anything new. I changed the structure of a few paragraphs, since all these random additions left the page practically unreadable. I also deleted a few bits of irrelevant, uncited, and distracting information (genocide in the bible, the bible as history, and colonialism in Rawanda). There are a lot of sketchy items in the page that still need to be referenced, however. Like, the whole second paragraph. I don't really think that SOCIAL EVOLUTIONISM should be conflated with evolution, proper. I think someone should: either erase this, or make it relevant to the discussion at hand. The only really relevant part of this entire section is the paragraph on Dunbar and Gladwell. If anything, shouldn't the parts about GENOCIDE go in the VIOLENCE section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.223.125 ( talk) 23:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article contends that Homo sapiens may have wiped out Homo neanderthalensis in Europe. This was once believed, but has been quite firmly refuted. We have no evidence for human violence prior to the Neolithic. Jason Godesky 18:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Could this be at all related to the increase in things like subcultures (ie. Emo, Goth, "Vampyres" etc.)? It seems people enjoy categorizing themselves soas to fit into a group and especially among teenagers a subculture. Just a thought.
Would it be acceptable to add to this section sectarianism in Iraq between Sunnis, Shias and Kurds; and also in Northern Ireland between Roman Catholics and Protestants? In Northern Ireland, for example, the Alliance Party often use the term "Tribal Politics" by way of criticising more hard line political groupings, ie Sinn Fein and the DUP. Paddyman1989 09:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is not a single reference on this entire page and the only warning you place is that it may not be neutral? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.32.249.24 ( talk) 07:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"Some tribes are particularly egalitarian, and most tribes have only a vague notion of private property: many have none at all."
That's an interesting statement given the widespread practice of paying a bride price or dowry for ones marriage partner. The practice is/was common practice in tribes around the world, including 19th century Native American tribes, which suggests the presence of private property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.227.112.64 ( talk) 09:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I've always been intrigued by tribal culture. When I looked up Tribalism on Wikipedia, I was disappointed to see that the bulk of human history has been reduced to a few underdeveloped paragraphs with no citations or sources.
I'm no expert, but I'll do my best to focus my attention to this entry during my free time. At the very least, we need to work together and get this entry into working order. Since I'm new to editing anything on Wikipedia, I wanted to bring it to the attention of professionals who can really develop this topic. Philanderson112914:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)14:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)14:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)Phil Anderson
I don't think the article suffers from a lack of neutrality so much as a lack of perspective. I just changed a sentence at Lao Issara from the Western-oriented phrase "peasant-dominated" to "tribalism|tribal-oriented" wikilinked to this article. It is the best we have at present to explain such an orientation. For a broader perspective focused on how tribal groups interact in the rugged terrain of southern China and south and southeast Asia, see Zomia (geography). For how non-tribal power centers work, see Mandala (Southeast Asian history). Take time to read footnote 1, how maps made the world. Before that, something like the Mandala System prevailed in all civilized (i.e., city-fied) countries. Keep in mind that dynastic interests, while not exactly the same thing, nevertheless closely parallel tribal interests. The point made in Zomia geography is that a great many people prefer being beyond the reach of Mandalic or dynastic power, or to seek areas where these overlap, where they form themselves into actual or simulated tribal groups (like gangs and organized crime.) The related article on Zomia may not be a good one, and is laced with POVs, but it gives a good example of a tribal group inventing and preserving itself. -- Pawyilee ( talk) 10:11, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Tribes, as families, are well-known institutions on Anthropology and this article forgets why this happens (natural effects, positive finality, shared social values, social identity, non-virtual or real bonds) and it is only focused on " radical and fundamental tribalism" and sociocentrism, completely missing its real meaning. Sadly I have no time to fix this right now. Hoping somebody is able to. Thank you. 185.29.166.250 ( talk) 16:06, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
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Since the term is used derogatory, the article paints tribalism in a light that is unfairly bad. There are positive aspects to tribalism such as solidarity, maintenance of shared values and social networks. -- 105.12.1.172 ( talk) 15:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Could we potentially add a criticism of the term by anthropologists? As I understand it, the term "tribalism" is loaded with biases, presumptions and generally considered outmoded by anthropologists today.
It seems like a glaring omission to the article, and contributes to the persistence of the idea that impenetrable n-group biases are naturally reproducing. They are not.
Perhaps this would warrant a brief look at Veneer Theory.
Here might be a good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/882rwu/good_anthropological_critiques_of_mainstream/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.168.195 ( talk) 08:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
jnnl
The current version of the lead paragraph states without a source that human evolution has primarily occurred in small hunter-gatherer groups
. Recent research has disputed this claim; see
doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2019.03.005.
Freoh (
talk)
11:15, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
The words "tribe" and "tribalism" are not in common use by anthropologists/sociologists. At the very least, they're not well-defined. See this, from the University of Pennsylvania: http://www.africa.upenn.edu/K-12/Tribe.html Perhaps the article need not exist. Tropical Violet ( talk) 04:06, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
Michael Hardy changed the first line of the article from "Tribalism refers to a..." to "Tribalism is a..." He cites this reasoning: "A dog does not refer to an animal; a dog _is_ an animal. The WORD "dog" refers to an animal, but it's usually better to write about the thing rather than about the word." I do not believe this reasoning holds in this case. "Tribalism" is not a social system, really; it is more an ephitet, referring to a specific state of affairs. "Commie pinko bastard" is not an indivudal with Leftist political beliefs; "Commie pinko bastard" refers to an individual with Leftist political beliefs. To say that it "is" suggests that the ephitet is grounded in reality, rather than being one (dim) view of that reality. In other words, if tribalism is the state of affairs where society is divided into many, small groups, then that state of affairs is negative--because tribalism is pejorative. Considering that the rest of the article elucidates the complexities and ambiguities of the pejorative, the initial statement seems jarringly assertive. Jason Godesky 15:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
I think there were interesting elements that should be merged in from a large passage of the article that was removed. -- Nectarflowed (talk) 17:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have added a fairly large amount of text to account for a parallel definition of the word. I think it was important to capture this meaning of the word. I have deleted as little of the original text as I could, and as a result the entire article doesn't quite flow as well as it used to. Still, I think it's an improvement. The only part I deliberately rewrote was the comments about how racial conflicts and genocide are the result of recent growth into nations and empires. I don't think this is at all true, but I'd like to hear reasons to back it up. My impression is that even with the advent of nations and empires, tribalism (as an us vs them motivational tool) has just morphed into nationalism. The conflicts are quite nasty, but they are typically international, not intranational as the original text implied... and international conflict fits with the original modus operandi of tribalism, and hence does not constitute any sort of shift. I apologize for my harsh tone in the "why are you guys arguing about..." entry (and for forgetting to sign it!). Upon further reflection, I accept the original definition of tribalism as also an appropriate one. Jurgen Hissen 07:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "This usage of the term is unfortunate" seems to eliminate any neutrality from the POV of this article.
There's some debate over the origins of the term " Eskimo," but basically, the Eskimo are the Inuit. It is a name for the Inuit and other, related circumpolar cultures. One of the theories of where this term might have come from, noted in the article, is the Ojibwe term for "eaters of raw meat." This was incorrectly "corrected" to say, "...but they were known to the Inuit by a name translating roughly as 'eaters of raw meat.'" This is incorrect, and with insufficient space for the full rationale in the edit summary, I've put it here. Jason Godesky 20:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
What does tribalism have to do with politics? Jason Godesky 02:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I have replaced certain references to altruism where kin selection is actually the proper term. The support of tribal members for each other stems more from their kinship than from altruism as evidenced by the fact that the same support would not be extended to non-kin or a stranger. Altruism is the support of unrelated individuals for each other without expectation of the favor being returned. Kin selection is the support of related individuals for each other without expectation of the favor being returned. Reciprocity is the support of members of a group (kin or not) with the expectation of the favor being returned. PAR 23:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't really add anything new. I changed the structure of a few paragraphs, since all these random additions left the page practically unreadable. I also deleted a few bits of irrelevant, uncited, and distracting information (genocide in the bible, the bible as history, and colonialism in Rawanda). There are a lot of sketchy items in the page that still need to be referenced, however. Like, the whole second paragraph. I don't really think that SOCIAL EVOLUTIONISM should be conflated with evolution, proper. I think someone should: either erase this, or make it relevant to the discussion at hand. The only really relevant part of this entire section is the paragraph on Dunbar and Gladwell. If anything, shouldn't the parts about GENOCIDE go in the VIOLENCE section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.223.125 ( talk) 23:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The article contends that Homo sapiens may have wiped out Homo neanderthalensis in Europe. This was once believed, but has been quite firmly refuted. We have no evidence for human violence prior to the Neolithic. Jason Godesky 18:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Could this be at all related to the increase in things like subcultures (ie. Emo, Goth, "Vampyres" etc.)? It seems people enjoy categorizing themselves soas to fit into a group and especially among teenagers a subculture. Just a thought.
Would it be acceptable to add to this section sectarianism in Iraq between Sunnis, Shias and Kurds; and also in Northern Ireland between Roman Catholics and Protestants? In Northern Ireland, for example, the Alliance Party often use the term "Tribal Politics" by way of criticising more hard line political groupings, ie Sinn Fein and the DUP. Paddyman1989 09:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is not a single reference on this entire page and the only warning you place is that it may not be neutral? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.32.249.24 ( talk) 07:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"Some tribes are particularly egalitarian, and most tribes have only a vague notion of private property: many have none at all."
That's an interesting statement given the widespread practice of paying a bride price or dowry for ones marriage partner. The practice is/was common practice in tribes around the world, including 19th century Native American tribes, which suggests the presence of private property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.227.112.64 ( talk) 09:15, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I've always been intrigued by tribal culture. When I looked up Tribalism on Wikipedia, I was disappointed to see that the bulk of human history has been reduced to a few underdeveloped paragraphs with no citations or sources.
I'm no expert, but I'll do my best to focus my attention to this entry during my free time. At the very least, we need to work together and get this entry into working order. Since I'm new to editing anything on Wikipedia, I wanted to bring it to the attention of professionals who can really develop this topic. Philanderson112914:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)14:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)14:55, 28 May 2010 (UTC)Phil Anderson
I don't think the article suffers from a lack of neutrality so much as a lack of perspective. I just changed a sentence at Lao Issara from the Western-oriented phrase "peasant-dominated" to "tribalism|tribal-oriented" wikilinked to this article. It is the best we have at present to explain such an orientation. For a broader perspective focused on how tribal groups interact in the rugged terrain of southern China and south and southeast Asia, see Zomia (geography). For how non-tribal power centers work, see Mandala (Southeast Asian history). Take time to read footnote 1, how maps made the world. Before that, something like the Mandala System prevailed in all civilized (i.e., city-fied) countries. Keep in mind that dynastic interests, while not exactly the same thing, nevertheless closely parallel tribal interests. The point made in Zomia geography is that a great many people prefer being beyond the reach of Mandalic or dynastic power, or to seek areas where these overlap, where they form themselves into actual or simulated tribal groups (like gangs and organized crime.) The related article on Zomia may not be a good one, and is laced with POVs, but it gives a good example of a tribal group inventing and preserving itself. -- Pawyilee ( talk) 10:11, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 ( talk) 01:28, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Tribes, as families, are well-known institutions on Anthropology and this article forgets why this happens (natural effects, positive finality, shared social values, social identity, non-virtual or real bonds) and it is only focused on " radical and fundamental tribalism" and sociocentrism, completely missing its real meaning. Sadly I have no time to fix this right now. Hoping somebody is able to. Thank you. 185.29.166.250 ( talk) 16:06, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tribalism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
Since the term is used derogatory, the article paints tribalism in a light that is unfairly bad. There are positive aspects to tribalism such as solidarity, maintenance of shared values and social networks. -- 105.12.1.172 ( talk) 15:14, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Could we potentially add a criticism of the term by anthropologists? As I understand it, the term "tribalism" is loaded with biases, presumptions and generally considered outmoded by anthropologists today.
It seems like a glaring omission to the article, and contributes to the persistence of the idea that impenetrable n-group biases are naturally reproducing. They are not.
Perhaps this would warrant a brief look at Veneer Theory.
Here might be a good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnthropology/comments/882rwu/good_anthropological_critiques_of_mainstream/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.232.168.195 ( talk) 08:53, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
jnnl
The current version of the lead paragraph states without a source that human evolution has primarily occurred in small hunter-gatherer groups
. Recent research has disputed this claim; see
doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2019.03.005.
Freoh (
talk)
11:15, 14 August 2022 (UTC)