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Treaty of Sèvres and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I would be ready to add under the footnote a short timeline of notable develoments during the 10-month period between the Armistice of Mudros ( 30 October 1918; the agreement that ended the war for the Ottoman Empire, and which should be mentioned here) and the Treaty of Sevres. I do not know if there are any examples of such a timeline in other articles on international treaties but it would certainly be useful. I can write it in smaller characters like the footnote, therefore the main body of the article would still jump first to the eye. Cretanforever
-- V. E. ( talk) 03:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
V.E.: "you are preparing a map on your interpretation of the Treaty of Serves" — I've already told you that's not true. My main source was this map prepared by the American geographer Lawrence Martin for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Compared to your maps, it has the advantage of matching the text of the treaty. It is also easy to find lots of published maps that agree with it, for example here. Dealing with sources that disagree is part of the job of being a Wikipedia editor and are allowed to look at the primary source to see which secondary sources have a better case for citation. The bottom line is that if it isn't in the treaty it isn't in the treaty. That's not interpretation but just reading, which is perfectly within the rules. Zero talk 14:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
This article displays maps for a sequence of treaties and secret understandings related to this question. It is not the best source available but it shows the complexity of the situation and how many non-specialist sources are able to get confused. (If the article is pay-walled to you, send me mail and I'll provide a copy). Zero talk 15:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Apparently the UK copy of the treaty has maps: "British Treaty Series, No. 11, 1920, Cmd. 964" and similarly for the Tripartite Agreement: "British Treaty Series, No. 12, 1920, Cmd. 963". I didn't manage to find online copies of these but I can probably find them in hardcopy. Zero talk 16:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
The Sèvres document proposed dividing eastern Anatolia between an independent Armenia and an autonomous Kurdistan, while it gave to Greece the Aegean islands and Eastern Thrace up to the outskirts of Istanbul. Izmir and its hinterland were also placed under Greek administration as a prelude to formal annexation, to be based on a plebiscite, within five years. Simultaneously, Britain, France and Italy signed a tripartite agreement confirming the Italian sphere of influence in south-western Anatolia and a French zone conforming to wartime agreements in the Eastern Mediterranean and to the north of the new Syria mandate." This is a correct summary of what the two agreements say and it is what Selfstudier and I have been saying. The "zones of influence" are not in the Treaty of Sèvres but in the Tripartite Agreement. Start an RfC if you like, but I have no sympathy for your position. Zero talk 16:39, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
"The treaty reconfirmed the Arbitration Award of February 1914, which recognized Greek sovereignty of the Aegean islands and Italian possession of the Dodecanese islands, along with the occupation of Antalya and its hinterlands."Reading two sources, what I understand is there is also a tripartite agreement seperate from the Treaty of Serves as the book you cited states but what I see in this passage is that with the Serves, Ottomans recognized an earlier treaty which enabled Italy to invade Antalya. What do you think about this?
The French and Italian Governments will withdraw their troops from the respective areas where their special interests are recognized when the contracting Powers are agreed in considering that the said Treaty of Peace is being executed and that the measures accepted by Turkey for the protection of Christian minorities have been put into force and their execution effectively guaranteed." Zero talk 03:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
I will make a map based on this one that SelfStudier found and put it here for discussion. I will also see if I can find the two command papers that I mentioned above. Zero talk 12:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Ahah! The Tripartite Agreement actually came with a map and refers to it. Here it is. Zero talk 14:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Today I visited Command Paper 963 and found a large color map almost one meter wide. I couldn't manage to photocopy it in pieces due to the very heavy volume it was bound into. The crappy version here is made by joining some photos taken with my phone. I will create a simple version for the article. Zero talk 11:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Which was a clearer map, it seems to have been changed by an user who no longer exists. And now there are bunch of unclear, amateur maps added, and according to talk page they are wrong and they need a new map. Why not use the original?
This is the
talk page for discussing
Treaty of Sèvres and anything related to its purposes and tasks. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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1Auto-archiving period: 360 days
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![]() | This article may be within the scope of Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. Please see the project page for more details, to request intervention on the notification board or peruse other tasks. |
I would be ready to add under the footnote a short timeline of notable develoments during the 10-month period between the Armistice of Mudros ( 30 October 1918; the agreement that ended the war for the Ottoman Empire, and which should be mentioned here) and the Treaty of Sevres. I do not know if there are any examples of such a timeline in other articles on international treaties but it would certainly be useful. I can write it in smaller characters like the footnote, therefore the main body of the article would still jump first to the eye. Cretanforever
-- V. E. ( talk) 03:08, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
V.E.: "you are preparing a map on your interpretation of the Treaty of Serves" — I've already told you that's not true. My main source was this map prepared by the American geographer Lawrence Martin for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Compared to your maps, it has the advantage of matching the text of the treaty. It is also easy to find lots of published maps that agree with it, for example here. Dealing with sources that disagree is part of the job of being a Wikipedia editor and are allowed to look at the primary source to see which secondary sources have a better case for citation. The bottom line is that if it isn't in the treaty it isn't in the treaty. That's not interpretation but just reading, which is perfectly within the rules. Zero talk 14:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
This article displays maps for a sequence of treaties and secret understandings related to this question. It is not the best source available but it shows the complexity of the situation and how many non-specialist sources are able to get confused. (If the article is pay-walled to you, send me mail and I'll provide a copy). Zero talk 15:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Apparently the UK copy of the treaty has maps: "British Treaty Series, No. 11, 1920, Cmd. 964" and similarly for the Tripartite Agreement: "British Treaty Series, No. 12, 1920, Cmd. 963". I didn't manage to find online copies of these but I can probably find them in hardcopy. Zero talk 16:19, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
The Sèvres document proposed dividing eastern Anatolia between an independent Armenia and an autonomous Kurdistan, while it gave to Greece the Aegean islands and Eastern Thrace up to the outskirts of Istanbul. Izmir and its hinterland were also placed under Greek administration as a prelude to formal annexation, to be based on a plebiscite, within five years. Simultaneously, Britain, France and Italy signed a tripartite agreement confirming the Italian sphere of influence in south-western Anatolia and a French zone conforming to wartime agreements in the Eastern Mediterranean and to the north of the new Syria mandate." This is a correct summary of what the two agreements say and it is what Selfstudier and I have been saying. The "zones of influence" are not in the Treaty of Sèvres but in the Tripartite Agreement. Start an RfC if you like, but I have no sympathy for your position. Zero talk 16:39, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
"The treaty reconfirmed the Arbitration Award of February 1914, which recognized Greek sovereignty of the Aegean islands and Italian possession of the Dodecanese islands, along with the occupation of Antalya and its hinterlands."Reading two sources, what I understand is there is also a tripartite agreement seperate from the Treaty of Serves as the book you cited states but what I see in this passage is that with the Serves, Ottomans recognized an earlier treaty which enabled Italy to invade Antalya. What do you think about this?
The French and Italian Governments will withdraw their troops from the respective areas where their special interests are recognized when the contracting Powers are agreed in considering that the said Treaty of Peace is being executed and that the measures accepted by Turkey for the protection of Christian minorities have been put into force and their execution effectively guaranteed." Zero talk 03:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
I will make a map based on this one that SelfStudier found and put it here for discussion. I will also see if I can find the two command papers that I mentioned above. Zero talk 12:24, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Ahah! The Tripartite Agreement actually came with a map and refers to it. Here it is. Zero talk 14:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Today I visited Command Paper 963 and found a large color map almost one meter wide. I couldn't manage to photocopy it in pieces due to the very heavy volume it was bound into. The crappy version here is made by joining some photos taken with my phone. I will create a simple version for the article. Zero talk 11:24, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Which was a clearer map, it seems to have been changed by an user who no longer exists. And now there are bunch of unclear, amateur maps added, and according to talk page they are wrong and they need a new map. Why not use the original?