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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Note that given the recent flurry on these pages, I have a suggestion. SHUN HIM/HER! A more detailed response here.
WLU 14:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC) I wish to provide an alert. Someone has been messing with the article's content. It currently reads as follows:
Section:
---Relation to the theory of evolution
Seeker head ( talk) 19:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head
Update: vandalization has been corrected.
Seeker head ( talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head
"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it… Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin's authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils… It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test." -Dr. Colin Patterson, a senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History and author of "Evolution" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjrousey ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2009
The section called "Misconceptions" is unnecessarily dogmatic and seems more concerned with vilifying creationists than clearing up common misconceptions about the missing link concept. Creationist* is mentioned 4 times.
Take for example the line 'Prothero has called that claim the "favourite lie" of creationists...' How is the vitriolic opinion of an evolutionist about creationists relevant to misconceptions? Further dogma can be found in "However, progress in research and new discoveries continue to fill in such gaps, and in modern thinking evolution is pictured as a bush of lines of development, not the simplistic ladder of progress that was common before Darwin published his theory and still influences popular opinion." Says who???
I think this section deserves the weasel-words seal of disapproval. AngusCA ( talk) 01:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
While this certainly deserves a mention within the article, the current writeup seems highly unprofessional. Without a citation, the author of these statements could merely be using "straw man" arguments. Regardless, this article is not about the debate between evolutionary scientists or creationists. Perhaps the issue(s) could be raised without actually singling out creationists. Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
WLU, your fallacy is that this is true of ALL creationists. You have not proven this to be the case. Therefore, this article needs to signify that this is true of "some" creationists -- unless you can provide ample proof that this is a characteristic of "all," "most" or "many." Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
The article includes two references to the same "Donald Prothero." Who is this guy...and why does his all-encompassing statement about the "favourite lie of creationists" even worthy of inclusion in this article? It seems that "Donald Prothero" doesn't merit enough fame to have an article in the Wikipedia. Besides, it seems like that would be better saved for an article on creationism rather than in an article on transitional fossils. Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that the additions under the heading "Missing link found" are inappropriate, especially with that heading, and even moreso without citations. But I will refrain from deleting them altogether, waiting for someone to convice me otherwise. It could give the impression to the casual reader that this fossil marks a significant transition between human and pre-human, but isn't it about 40 million years too early for that? TomS TDotO ( talk) 16:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The link was showing as 404 not found, so I deleted it. The link has since worked, and seems to be a rather film heavy and uniformative official site. Science Daily has good coverage, it's Darwinius masillae and the type specimen has been called "Ida" – the Ida fossil and Ida (fossil) articles look like something to merge into Darwinius masillae. Worth hunting out the PLoS paper. Oh, and it's not The missing link, it's "yet another missing link, creating two new missing links". . dave souza, talk 18:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC) tweaked 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Links to the PLoS One paper here . . dave souza, talk 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the external links section; they should be embedded as inline citations rather than attached as links. The AIG article should be reviewed to see if it's worth citing as a "creationists believe"; naturally it's worthless for use as an actual reference. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
need i say more? this whole article is dripping with pov and weasel words. i thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia. are you people blind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellenwright ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the "Common misrepresentations by creationists" for quite a few logical reasons.
-These "claims" are not false or misrepresentations, they are hypotheses that attempt to explain some of the possible fallacies that may lie within evolution. In order for something to be false, it must be proven ENTIRELY untrue, which has not happened here. The attack on claim number two comes close, however, these features are not partially functional...the are completely nonfunctional. -This section cannot be written in an objective manner without turning it into a section of debate -This is a blatant attack on Creationism, thus compromising the objectivity of the article -Creationists are not the only group who make these claims -Wikipedia is not a debate site. It presents the FACTS. Neither these claims nor the rebuttals against them are facts. Shicoco ( talk) 03:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I have removed this again. First off, it violates WP:SOAP as well as as other policies. Secondly, a well referenced section does not mean a) it is objective b) it is true c) it is worthy of putting in d) it doesn't break the rules of Wikipedia. Shicoco ( talk) 03:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I would like comments on this section. It might not be neutral, and it contains logical fallacies (it says these "claims" are false, but they haven't been proven to be so, they are just debated to be so). I also don't think this section is very relevant to the article. Also, Creationists are not the only group of people who make these "claims", thus it attacks Creationists unjustifiably. Please comment objectively as I am. I would not wish to see this kind of section that attacks evolutionists on a creationist page. Shicoco ( talk) 04:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I see it, non evolutionists claim a negative side, such as X is not possible because of Y, or there is a lack of Z. Evolutionists theorize how X could be possible, or theorize a good reason for a lack of Z. I think if this section is to be kept, it should be amended, to show some attacks against transitional fossils, and possible solutions made by evolutionists. The only other way to make it neutral is to show false claims by evolutionists, with commentaries by non-evolutionists, and that would turn this article into a reference for debate. Shicoco ( talk) 05:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Please ignore previous comments by Raeky, as they're off topic. Now, I would like legitimate comments. My vote is to remove the section, however, amendments are cool too. The word creationist should be removed from the title of the section, as there are athiests who use these claims against evolution. The word misrepresentation should also be removed, but that would devalue the section, so... PROPOSED SOLUTION - Rename section as something like "Anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils". In the section, list the claims, and after, list proposed solutions to claims. For example: "There is a lack of transitional fossils." hypothesis: "A very small percentage of animals become fossilized." Any thoughts? Shicoco ( talk) 06:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
( edit conflict)::I fully agree with Farsight001. Can I also point out that we are not voting, we are having a discussion hoping to arrive at a consensus - see WP:PRACTICAL on polls. Also, the warning on Raeky's page that he may be blocked is a misuse of the template. There is no way I or any of my Admin colleagues are going to block Raeky for his comments above. Dougweller ( talk) 06:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Great, discussion. Well, what about presenting this section as common anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils, and possible solutions to the arguments? Really, at the moment, it's just a big attack. The quality of the article is not that of an encyclopedia nature, in my opinion. It should be more neutral. And I didn't read the template, I have the automated tool to do it. Anyways, thoughts on neutrality? Please try to be neutral yourselves. Wikipedia is not about discrediting Creationists, even if they do say stupid things. Shicoco ( talk) 07:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
As for me containing this argument, I'm not. Therefore I'm shunning you. Please do not contact me on my talk page anymore. You're arguments are not new and not productive to this article. Keep in mind I will continue to revert/remove your edits and warn you if they go against consensus. Thank you for your time. — raeky ( talk | edits) 07:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
You still don't understand that this isn't about my opinions. But oh well. Perhaps this will just stay a bad article.
Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether. Shicoco ( talk) 08:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm starting a new section because a previous user made this a Evolutionist vs Creationist argument. This is an objective discussion on possible problems with this section of the article. The "who" of the section is not important. I want to look into the neutrality of this section. Here are some points:
Claim 1: " ...but are also explained as a tactic actively employed by creationists seeking to distort or discredit evolutionary theory and have been called the "favourite lie" of creationists." What does creationists' anti-evolution tactics have to do with this article? Favourite lie of creationists? This is calling a group of people liars. For one, just disproving the claim is enough for this section, and secondly, this is attacking a group of people. This section is about misrepresentations right? Not about tactics or lying. If they are liars is it Wikipedia's place to announce it? Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether.
I would appreciate your thoughts. To me, a group is being attacked. Doesn't matter who's being attacked, just the fact that they are...that is if you think they are being attacked. Your thoughts, please. Shicoco ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
From WP:NPV "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." Take a look at the page...some of it MAY apply here. What does everyone else think? Shicoco ( talk) 08:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.
— Evolution as Fact and Theory Science and Creationism, Stephen Jay Gould
There is also evidence that a complex feature can adapt to wholly different functions through exaptation (such as the wings of birds).
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn's argument looks fine to me. Guettarda ( talk) 19:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
An early instance of the phrase appears in "Soapy" Samuel Wilberforce's 1860 review of On the Origin of Species, p. 247 "in the vast museum of departed animal life which the strata of the earth imbed for our examination, whilst they contain far too complete a representation of the past to be set aside as a mere imperfect record, yet afford no one instance of any such change as having ever been in progress, or give us anywhere the missing links of the assumed chain...." . . . dave souza, talk 22:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
In my view this otherwise quite well written piece on a scientific subject is marred by a section discussing some long-refuted canards that have no scientific credibility at all. Would it not be better to merge this section into an article on creationist arguments? The treatment in the article at present lends massively undue weight to notions that rightly command little or no respect in scientific discourse. Tasty monster ( TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I think the fact that biologists have spent a lot of energy rebutting creationist arguments on this subject weighs in its favor. Tasty monster ( TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 11:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
That is a highly discriminatory title, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.46.83 ( talk) 04:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the subtitle to the npov 'Creationism' but the article still implies science/ Bible hybrid theories like Progressive Creationism don`t exist... andycjp ( talk) 04:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay folks, let's stop the edit warring and reverting genuine attempts to improve the section, and discuss this amicably. Simply looking at the discussions above, most of which focusses on this section, it's clear that its wording is disputed and it is becoming a distraction from the discussing the main thrust of the article. There are (at least) 4 options:
Remember this is not about whether you agree with the theory of evolution or not; it's about whether you think the section portrays the alternative view(s) in a balanced and neutral way. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 17:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.
— Stephen Jay Gould in The Panda's Thumb (1980, p189)
I am a bit lost as to why these two terms are being/ have been equated. Surely "missing link" would refer to a transitional fossil that is thought to exist, but an example of which has not been found and which would fit in between two known fossils - i.e., missing. On the other hand, "transitional fossils" would mean any one, found or unfound. You could then say something like "In the series of transitional fossils representing hominid evolution, there are a few missing links". -- Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 15:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
The vestigal structures listed are not vestigal. This idea was disproven decades ago. Whales use their "legs" for reproduction. The human appendix is part of the immune system. Look up the actual function of the coccyx.
I have no opposition to evolution, but I am not going to use fallacious arguments to try to back up my views. It just makes evolutionists look foolish.
The whole section reeks of weasel words and bias, starting with the title. Change the title to "Criticism" and use words such as intelligent design instead of repeating creationist/ism 8 times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.102.180.215 ( talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I am a wikipedia newbie, so I thought I would jump-in here first rather than edit the article only to have it rolled back. I believe that the Transitional vs ancestral section of the article could be re-written as follows:
... There are a few exceptions to this. Some groups of planktonic, marine micro-organisms such as foraminifera, diatoms, and radiolaria have fossil records complete enough to show transitions from one species (or genus) to another. But in general, transitional fossils are ... [note: replace the bold text here with appropriate links]
I would also like to contribute material on one such transtional sequence, namely the Globigerinoides sacculifer to Orbulina universa transition in Neogene foraminifera. I'm not sure which article I would place this in, though. Richardjb25 ( talk) 17:11, 28 March 2011 (UTC) richardjb25
Concerning the "Common Creationist Arguments" section, I will remove most of it, as it butchers and does not accurately represent Creationist theories. There is an article dedicated to this subject, to which I will include a link. If anyone is interested in what Creationists have to say about transitional fossils, then they can go to the respective article, and end all of this needless bickering. I also ask that you leave it alone for at least one day (preferably a week), and see how many people complain. I by the end of a week, there are enough people dissatisfied with the way this solution works, then I will let it go and let you return to your bickering. Thank you, Hawkrawkr ( talk) 17:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Hawkrawkr:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 18:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
The section on transitional fossils under in cladistic understanding is not good. The text is unclear and it lacks sources. Basically, there won't be any transitional critters if there are no group that a new group can evolve from. If dinosaurs contain birds (cladistic view) Archaeopteryx (or crow or chicken) becomes just another dinosaur, and not transitional between anything. Old aunty Archy will only be transitional if birds evolved from dinosaurs ( evolutionary taxonomy view). Any group that has another group evolving from it is by definition paraphyletic. Essentially, there are no transitional fossils in phylogenetic taxonomy, I suggest we leave it at that.
The section on transitional versus intermediate forms is also not very clear. Are there any sources for the use of the two? The explanation given in the List of transitional fossils is quite a lot simpler, though it too lacks sources for the use of the two words. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 08:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me, a wiki-newbie, why my contribution to the external link section of this article was deleted. I admit that the article in question was not a primary source but a sort of "popular science" rendering of the research. Should I have linked to the actual research article, instead?
Given that this is an article on transitional fossils, I would like to think that a paper documenting an actual fossil transition from one genus to another would be useful. In my opinion, the research in question is important. This transitional series (for which there is both bio-stratigraphic and 'evo-developmental' evidence) could serve as an agreed upon example of evolution to which the more moderate creationists could/should subscribe to. This might move the discussion beyond the (erroneous) micro/macro-evolution distinction. Richardjb25 ( talk) 22:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC) richardjb25
Sigh, the point about expert authority is fair and for that reason I would not cite this website as a reliable source, but the standards for external links are not and should not be the same as for cited sources. If a cite is interesting, and the information on it seems reasonably sound I think it is reasonable candidate for an external link. As for the rest of your points I don't think they show what you seem to think they show. Starting with your point 3. That is the direct opposite of the sentiment I would expect to find on a creationist website. What it says is that nature doesn't lie, and if what you see in nature is in conflict with what you believe is divinely revealed truth, then you have mistranslated or misinterpreted the divine revelation. That is the antithesis of what a creationist would say, which is that if what you see in nature appears to conflict with divinely revealed truth then you have misinterpreted nature. Not only is the belief stated not consistent with creationism, it is essentially the position of every religion that does NOT reject modern science. Now as to your point 2. Those are questions that he has identified that he wants to address. Before you go making claims about what they show about his point of view shouldn't you look at his answers? His answer to the atheism question says: "People with "Philosophy of Science" degrees hold that science and religion are separate, and do not overlap. Scientists (as scientists) are not supposed to have opinions about religion. Science is the study of nature, i.e. Creation, and that's that. There is a difference between being a-theistic (denying God) and non-theistic (not mentioning God). Plumbers (as plumbers) don't mention God either. Scientists (and plumbers) may do so in their private lives, but it's not part of their job." Does that sound creationist? How about his answer to the evolutions in crises question, which says: "It's considered an interesting field, maybe even exciting. We continue to find prehuman fossils. New Precambrian fossil beds have been found. New transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds have been found. CAT scan technology has allowed us to look at the interiors of fossils." Does that sound creationist? The idea behind this website is not unlike that of objections to evolution. If you want to say that it should not be used as an external link because the person who created the link is not a biologist, I don't agree but I won't fight you too hard on the point. However, I won't let you get away with calling wet dry, or black white, or label a very well organized and written anti-creationist website as a creationist site, just because you haven't looked closely enough to see what it is actually saying. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 06:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I have looked and I can't find an alternative external link for this particularly informative instance of Radiolarian speciation. I found abstracts of this scientific paper and this one that discuss the same speciation event but the bodies of the articles and any illuminating diagrams like the one in the external link candidate are available with a subscription only. Jerry Coyne discusses it in his book Why Evolution is True and he does have a nice diagram similar to the one in the proposed external link, but without permission to reproduce it in our article it doesn't help us. What looking at these sources does do is further convince me that the information in the proposed external link is completely correct, so unless someone raises another objection soon I am going to restore it. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 06:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
The reason I originally contributed the external link to the foraminifera page on the Don Lindsay site (that started this whole thread) was that the original scientific article (Stable isotopic evidence for the sympatric divergence of Globigerinoides trilobus and Orbulina universa) was not available free and clear on the net. If it had been, I would have cited it in the section on ancestor/descendants.
I am not sure that the importance of this foraminifera series (and the radiolarian series) has been grasped. These foraminifera represent an empirically verifiable morphological transition over a continous sequence of strata. Evo-developmental data shows that these morpholgical changes represent real genetic changes and not just environmental variability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardjb25 ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Both these sentences are OR as far as I'm concerned:
In the first place it is no part of the evolutionary synthesis that all organisms are in transition, and I bet you will not be able to find a statement from any of the main participants in the ev syn to support it. In transition to what, incidentally? Although some such as Dobzhansky defined evolution as a change in the frequency of alleles in a population, this definition was always strongly resisted by others, such as Mayr.
If by 'in transition' you mean speciation, then it is almost universally agreed that the rate of origin of new species varies in different groups (groups = higher taxonomic levels than species). It was Simpson who put this most forcibly. It is in the explanation of this observation that such as Gould differed from such as Mayr.
Because the rate of speciation differs so much (as observed in the fossil record) it is not right to say the whole phenomenon is a human construct, except in the sense that all taxonomy is a construct. The question as to whether species are an objective reality has been endlessly discussed. The majority view is 'yes', and that is why the 'biological species concept' is still seen as important. Like all natural systems, there can be debate about the details. The existence of change and evolution does not negate the reality of most species as ecological and population groups which can be identified with a large (and sometimes universal) consensus.
All that being the case, it is wrong (and OR) to suggest that transition from one taxonomic group to another is going on all the time, and the choice of a fossil as transitional is somehow at the whim of the observer ('human construct'). That is the reverse of the truth. The example of Archaeopteryx is apt, because almost no-one has disagreed with its transitional status, and it is only in recent years that any others have been included as dinosaur-bird transitions.
The context of this discussion is (as stated) the counter-attack by anti-Darwinians that no transitional species existed between higher groups. Today, the only issue is why they are so comparatively rare. The answer is widely agreed. It is because the transitions happen relatively fast, and in relatively small populations. This means that fossils of transitional species are comparatively rare. This is compared to the vast, slowly changing (or effectively static) populations which form the bulk of the biota at any one time.
Tailpiece: I especially like the "recognised in hindsight" bit. I've yet to meet a fossil any other way! Macdonald-ross ( talk) 06:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I understand your point better now, and "mixture of characteristics" was probably not ideal terminology. I have reworded the lead a little. I agree that the concept of "transitional" fossils is rooted in evolutionary taxonomy. With cladistics the concept would be more along the line of "organism similar to the common ancestor of" rather than "organism transistional between", but I think we are stuck with the older term and it is just necessary to, carefully and clearly, explain how the older concept fits in to the newer way of thinking. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 18:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
My point is the very definitions of Aves and Paraves, and Deinonychosauria might be arbitrary (and are in fact under debate). There are already some who are suggesting that Archaeopteryx belongs in Deinonychosauria along with Xiaotingia rather than in Aves. On the other hand with some of the older Dromaeosaridae looking more bird like than the later ones, and with some like microraptor almost certainly having some kind of flight, it has already been suggested that the Dromaeosaridae actually descended from birds that became secondarily flightless and thus are actually Aves or at least Avialae. After all if microrapter had been discovered in the 19th century instead of Archaeopteryx I think there is little doubt that it would have been hailed as the transitional fossil representing the first bird just as readily as Archaeopteryx was and for perfectly good reasons. Aves is an arbitrary division, and I put the odds at 50/50 that in the next couple of decades it gets expanded to include a number of what are now considered to be non-avian dinosaurs. This sort of thing has happened before much closer to home. Until the 1970s there were separate families of Pongidae and Hominidae, until it became clear from molecular analysis that separate clades for the great apes and Humans made no sense and violated the rules of cladistics, and all got rolled in to Hominidae. One of course wonders why the larger faimily (Pongidae) was rolled into the smaller family (Hominidae) rather than vice versa, but I guess it is good to be the ones drawing the lines. This is why I originally chose the word "arbitrary" to describe taxonomic divisions! Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
This entire article is presenting anti-Intelligent design content without actually considering the theory. Evolution is a theory and Intelligent Design is a theory. Evolution is not PROVEN to be true and Intelligent design is not PROVEN to be false therefore many of these truth claims made in this article are false.
ob·jec·tive/əbˈjektiv/ Noun: A thing aimed at or sought; a goal. Adjective: (of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
In order for this page to be objective you need to consider both sides. This page clearly has a bias and all attempts to bring objectivity the the page are quickly removed by other users because of their personal beliefs, not because of the scientific evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkl728 ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Why are my arguments that refute the fact that these Vestigial organs are useless being removed? If you want to have a section which shows the arguments that Intelligent Design brings up then I would hope we would treat them fairly Pkl728 ( talk) 15:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Note that given the recent flurry on these pages, I have a suggestion. SHUN HIM/HER! A more detailed response here.
WLU 14:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC) I wish to provide an alert. Someone has been messing with the article's content. It currently reads as follows:
Section:
---Relation to the theory of evolution
Seeker head ( talk) 19:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head
Update: vandalization has been corrected.
Seeker head ( talk) 19:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)seeker_head
"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it… Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin's authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it. Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils… It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test." -Dr. Colin Patterson, a senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History and author of "Evolution" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjrousey ( talk • contribs) 20:32, 28 January 2009
The section called "Misconceptions" is unnecessarily dogmatic and seems more concerned with vilifying creationists than clearing up common misconceptions about the missing link concept. Creationist* is mentioned 4 times.
Take for example the line 'Prothero has called that claim the "favourite lie" of creationists...' How is the vitriolic opinion of an evolutionist about creationists relevant to misconceptions? Further dogma can be found in "However, progress in research and new discoveries continue to fill in such gaps, and in modern thinking evolution is pictured as a bush of lines of development, not the simplistic ladder of progress that was common before Darwin published his theory and still influences popular opinion." Says who???
I think this section deserves the weasel-words seal of disapproval. AngusCA ( talk) 01:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
While this certainly deserves a mention within the article, the current writeup seems highly unprofessional. Without a citation, the author of these statements could merely be using "straw man" arguments. Regardless, this article is not about the debate between evolutionary scientists or creationists. Perhaps the issue(s) could be raised without actually singling out creationists. Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
WLU, your fallacy is that this is true of ALL creationists. You have not proven this to be the case. Therefore, this article needs to signify that this is true of "some" creationists -- unless you can provide ample proof that this is a characteristic of "all," "most" or "many." Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
The article includes two references to the same "Donald Prothero." Who is this guy...and why does his all-encompassing statement about the "favourite lie of creationists" even worthy of inclusion in this article? It seems that "Donald Prothero" doesn't merit enough fame to have an article in the Wikipedia. Besides, it seems like that would be better saved for an article on creationism rather than in an article on transitional fossils. Ccchhhrrriiisss ( talk) 21:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems to me that the additions under the heading "Missing link found" are inappropriate, especially with that heading, and even moreso without citations. But I will refrain from deleting them altogether, waiting for someone to convice me otherwise. It could give the impression to the casual reader that this fossil marks a significant transition between human and pre-human, but isn't it about 40 million years too early for that? TomS TDotO ( talk) 16:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The link was showing as 404 not found, so I deleted it. The link has since worked, and seems to be a rather film heavy and uniformative official site. Science Daily has good coverage, it's Darwinius masillae and the type specimen has been called "Ida" – the Ida fossil and Ida (fossil) articles look like something to merge into Darwinius masillae. Worth hunting out the PLoS paper. Oh, and it's not The missing link, it's "yet another missing link, creating two new missing links". . dave souza, talk 18:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC) tweaked 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Links to the PLoS One paper here . . dave souza, talk 18:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the external links section; they should be embedded as inline citations rather than attached as links. The AIG article should be reviewed to see if it's worth citing as a "creationists believe"; naturally it's worthless for use as an actual reference. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 13:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
need i say more? this whole article is dripping with pov and weasel words. i thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia. are you people blind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kellenwright ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the "Common misrepresentations by creationists" for quite a few logical reasons.
-These "claims" are not false or misrepresentations, they are hypotheses that attempt to explain some of the possible fallacies that may lie within evolution. In order for something to be false, it must be proven ENTIRELY untrue, which has not happened here. The attack on claim number two comes close, however, these features are not partially functional...the are completely nonfunctional. -This section cannot be written in an objective manner without turning it into a section of debate -This is a blatant attack on Creationism, thus compromising the objectivity of the article -Creationists are not the only group who make these claims -Wikipedia is not a debate site. It presents the FACTS. Neither these claims nor the rebuttals against them are facts. Shicoco ( talk) 03:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I have removed this again. First off, it violates WP:SOAP as well as as other policies. Secondly, a well referenced section does not mean a) it is objective b) it is true c) it is worthy of putting in d) it doesn't break the rules of Wikipedia. Shicoco ( talk) 03:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I would like comments on this section. It might not be neutral, and it contains logical fallacies (it says these "claims" are false, but they haven't been proven to be so, they are just debated to be so). I also don't think this section is very relevant to the article. Also, Creationists are not the only group of people who make these "claims", thus it attacks Creationists unjustifiably. Please comment objectively as I am. I would not wish to see this kind of section that attacks evolutionists on a creationist page. Shicoco ( talk) 04:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Here's how I see it, non evolutionists claim a negative side, such as X is not possible because of Y, or there is a lack of Z. Evolutionists theorize how X could be possible, or theorize a good reason for a lack of Z. I think if this section is to be kept, it should be amended, to show some attacks against transitional fossils, and possible solutions made by evolutionists. The only other way to make it neutral is to show false claims by evolutionists, with commentaries by non-evolutionists, and that would turn this article into a reference for debate. Shicoco ( talk) 05:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Please ignore previous comments by Raeky, as they're off topic. Now, I would like legitimate comments. My vote is to remove the section, however, amendments are cool too. The word creationist should be removed from the title of the section, as there are athiests who use these claims against evolution. The word misrepresentation should also be removed, but that would devalue the section, so... PROPOSED SOLUTION - Rename section as something like "Anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils". In the section, list the claims, and after, list proposed solutions to claims. For example: "There is a lack of transitional fossils." hypothesis: "A very small percentage of animals become fossilized." Any thoughts? Shicoco ( talk) 06:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
( edit conflict)::I fully agree with Farsight001. Can I also point out that we are not voting, we are having a discussion hoping to arrive at a consensus - see WP:PRACTICAL on polls. Also, the warning on Raeky's page that he may be blocked is a misuse of the template. There is no way I or any of my Admin colleagues are going to block Raeky for his comments above. Dougweller ( talk) 06:32, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Great, discussion. Well, what about presenting this section as common anti-evolution arguments regarding transitional fossils, and possible solutions to the arguments? Really, at the moment, it's just a big attack. The quality of the article is not that of an encyclopedia nature, in my opinion. It should be more neutral. And I didn't read the template, I have the automated tool to do it. Anyways, thoughts on neutrality? Please try to be neutral yourselves. Wikipedia is not about discrediting Creationists, even if they do say stupid things. Shicoco ( talk) 07:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
As for me containing this argument, I'm not. Therefore I'm shunning you. Please do not contact me on my talk page anymore. You're arguments are not new and not productive to this article. Keep in mind I will continue to revert/remove your edits and warn you if they go against consensus. Thank you for your time. — raeky ( talk | edits) 07:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
You still don't understand that this isn't about my opinions. But oh well. Perhaps this will just stay a bad article.
Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether. Shicoco ( talk) 08:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I'm starting a new section because a previous user made this a Evolutionist vs Creationist argument. This is an objective discussion on possible problems with this section of the article. The "who" of the section is not important. I want to look into the neutrality of this section. Here are some points:
Claim 1: " ...but are also explained as a tactic actively employed by creationists seeking to distort or discredit evolutionary theory and have been called the "favourite lie" of creationists." What does creationists' anti-evolution tactics have to do with this article? Favourite lie of creationists? This is calling a group of people liars. For one, just disproving the claim is enough for this section, and secondly, this is attacking a group of people. This section is about misrepresentations right? Not about tactics or lying. If they are liars is it Wikipedia's place to announce it? Claim 2 says "No fossils are found with partially functional features", but the argument uses vestigial organs to counter. Vestigial organs are not partially functional, they're completely useless, or very close to. They do hint that at some point in history they were partially useful, but this argument is probably begging the question "Where are the animals with the partial lungs and partial gills?" Certainly during the course of evolution, while the lung was developing, at some point the species could use both the features of the lungs and the gills. It's asking for fossils that show this. If there is proof of this, it needs to be put here pronto. Claim 3: "Henry M. Morris and other creationists have incorrectly claimed" Is it really important that we name someone specifically? According to the quote other creationists have also incorrectly claimed this too. "...claimed that evolution predicts a continuous gradation in the fossil record, and have misrepresented the expected partial record as having "systematic gaps".[5] Due to the specialized and rare circumstances required for a biological structure to fossilize, only a very small percentage of all life-forms that ever have existed can be expected to be represented in discoveries and each represents only a snapshot of the process of evolution." This is incorrect, and a logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion. This does not disprove the argument; assume for a second Creationism were true; there can still be missing fossils. This also assumes that evolution is a fact. Claim 4 might just be irrelevant altogether.
I would appreciate your thoughts. To me, a group is being attacked. Doesn't matter who's being attacked, just the fact that they are...that is if you think they are being attacked. Your thoughts, please. Shicoco ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
From WP:NPV "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." Take a look at the page...some of it MAY apply here. What does everyone else think? Shicoco ( talk) 08:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.
— Evolution as Fact and Theory Science and Creationism, Stephen Jay Gould
There is also evidence that a complex feature can adapt to wholly different functions through exaptation (such as the wings of birds).
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn's argument looks fine to me. Guettarda ( talk) 19:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
An early instance of the phrase appears in "Soapy" Samuel Wilberforce's 1860 review of On the Origin of Species, p. 247 "in the vast museum of departed animal life which the strata of the earth imbed for our examination, whilst they contain far too complete a representation of the past to be set aside as a mere imperfect record, yet afford no one instance of any such change as having ever been in progress, or give us anywhere the missing links of the assumed chain...." . . . dave souza, talk 22:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
In my view this otherwise quite well written piece on a scientific subject is marred by a section discussing some long-refuted canards that have no scientific credibility at all. Would it not be better to merge this section into an article on creationist arguments? The treatment in the article at present lends massively undue weight to notions that rightly command little or no respect in scientific discourse. Tasty monster ( TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I think the fact that biologists have spent a lot of energy rebutting creationist arguments on this subject weighs in its favor. Tasty monster ( TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 11:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
That is a highly discriminatory title, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.46.83 ( talk) 04:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
I have changed the subtitle to the npov 'Creationism' but the article still implies science/ Bible hybrid theories like Progressive Creationism don`t exist... andycjp ( talk) 04:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay folks, let's stop the edit warring and reverting genuine attempts to improve the section, and discuss this amicably. Simply looking at the discussions above, most of which focusses on this section, it's clear that its wording is disputed and it is becoming a distraction from the discussing the main thrust of the article. There are (at least) 4 options:
Remember this is not about whether you agree with the theory of evolution or not; it's about whether you think the section portrays the alternative view(s) in a balanced and neutral way. -- Bermicourt ( talk) 17:37, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.
— Stephen Jay Gould in The Panda's Thumb (1980, p189)
I am a bit lost as to why these two terms are being/ have been equated. Surely "missing link" would refer to a transitional fossil that is thought to exist, but an example of which has not been found and which would fit in between two known fossils - i.e., missing. On the other hand, "transitional fossils" would mean any one, found or unfound. You could then say something like "In the series of transitional fossils representing hominid evolution, there are a few missing links". -- Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia ( talk) 15:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
The vestigal structures listed are not vestigal. This idea was disproven decades ago. Whales use their "legs" for reproduction. The human appendix is part of the immune system. Look up the actual function of the coccyx.
I have no opposition to evolution, but I am not going to use fallacious arguments to try to back up my views. It just makes evolutionists look foolish.
The whole section reeks of weasel words and bias, starting with the title. Change the title to "Criticism" and use words such as intelligent design instead of repeating creationist/ism 8 times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.102.180.215 ( talk) 20:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
I am a wikipedia newbie, so I thought I would jump-in here first rather than edit the article only to have it rolled back. I believe that the Transitional vs ancestral section of the article could be re-written as follows:
... There are a few exceptions to this. Some groups of planktonic, marine micro-organisms such as foraminifera, diatoms, and radiolaria have fossil records complete enough to show transitions from one species (or genus) to another. But in general, transitional fossils are ... [note: replace the bold text here with appropriate links]
I would also like to contribute material on one such transtional sequence, namely the Globigerinoides sacculifer to Orbulina universa transition in Neogene foraminifera. I'm not sure which article I would place this in, though. Richardjb25 ( talk) 17:11, 28 March 2011 (UTC) richardjb25
Concerning the "Common Creationist Arguments" section, I will remove most of it, as it butchers and does not accurately represent Creationist theories. There is an article dedicated to this subject, to which I will include a link. If anyone is interested in what Creationists have to say about transitional fossils, then they can go to the respective article, and end all of this needless bickering. I also ask that you leave it alone for at least one day (preferably a week), and see how many people complain. I by the end of a week, there are enough people dissatisfied with the way this solution works, then I will let it go and let you return to your bickering. Thank you, Hawkrawkr ( talk) 17:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Hawkrawkr:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 18:31, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
The section on transitional fossils under in cladistic understanding is not good. The text is unclear and it lacks sources. Basically, there won't be any transitional critters if there are no group that a new group can evolve from. If dinosaurs contain birds (cladistic view) Archaeopteryx (or crow or chicken) becomes just another dinosaur, and not transitional between anything. Old aunty Archy will only be transitional if birds evolved from dinosaurs ( evolutionary taxonomy view). Any group that has another group evolving from it is by definition paraphyletic. Essentially, there are no transitional fossils in phylogenetic taxonomy, I suggest we leave it at that.
The section on transitional versus intermediate forms is also not very clear. Are there any sources for the use of the two? The explanation given in the List of transitional fossils is quite a lot simpler, though it too lacks sources for the use of the two words. Petter Bøckman ( talk) 08:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me, a wiki-newbie, why my contribution to the external link section of this article was deleted. I admit that the article in question was not a primary source but a sort of "popular science" rendering of the research. Should I have linked to the actual research article, instead?
Given that this is an article on transitional fossils, I would like to think that a paper documenting an actual fossil transition from one genus to another would be useful. In my opinion, the research in question is important. This transitional series (for which there is both bio-stratigraphic and 'evo-developmental' evidence) could serve as an agreed upon example of evolution to which the more moderate creationists could/should subscribe to. This might move the discussion beyond the (erroneous) micro/macro-evolution distinction. Richardjb25 ( talk) 22:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC) richardjb25
Sigh, the point about expert authority is fair and for that reason I would not cite this website as a reliable source, but the standards for external links are not and should not be the same as for cited sources. If a cite is interesting, and the information on it seems reasonably sound I think it is reasonable candidate for an external link. As for the rest of your points I don't think they show what you seem to think they show. Starting with your point 3. That is the direct opposite of the sentiment I would expect to find on a creationist website. What it says is that nature doesn't lie, and if what you see in nature is in conflict with what you believe is divinely revealed truth, then you have mistranslated or misinterpreted the divine revelation. That is the antithesis of what a creationist would say, which is that if what you see in nature appears to conflict with divinely revealed truth then you have misinterpreted nature. Not only is the belief stated not consistent with creationism, it is essentially the position of every religion that does NOT reject modern science. Now as to your point 2. Those are questions that he has identified that he wants to address. Before you go making claims about what they show about his point of view shouldn't you look at his answers? His answer to the atheism question says: "People with "Philosophy of Science" degrees hold that science and religion are separate, and do not overlap. Scientists (as scientists) are not supposed to have opinions about religion. Science is the study of nature, i.e. Creation, and that's that. There is a difference between being a-theistic (denying God) and non-theistic (not mentioning God). Plumbers (as plumbers) don't mention God either. Scientists (and plumbers) may do so in their private lives, but it's not part of their job." Does that sound creationist? How about his answer to the evolutions in crises question, which says: "It's considered an interesting field, maybe even exciting. We continue to find prehuman fossils. New Precambrian fossil beds have been found. New transitional forms between dinosaurs and birds have been found. CAT scan technology has allowed us to look at the interiors of fossils." Does that sound creationist? The idea behind this website is not unlike that of objections to evolution. If you want to say that it should not be used as an external link because the person who created the link is not a biologist, I don't agree but I won't fight you too hard on the point. However, I won't let you get away with calling wet dry, or black white, or label a very well organized and written anti-creationist website as a creationist site, just because you haven't looked closely enough to see what it is actually saying. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 06:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I have looked and I can't find an alternative external link for this particularly informative instance of Radiolarian speciation. I found abstracts of this scientific paper and this one that discuss the same speciation event but the bodies of the articles and any illuminating diagrams like the one in the external link candidate are available with a subscription only. Jerry Coyne discusses it in his book Why Evolution is True and he does have a nice diagram similar to the one in the proposed external link, but without permission to reproduce it in our article it doesn't help us. What looking at these sources does do is further convince me that the information in the proposed external link is completely correct, so unless someone raises another objection soon I am going to restore it. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 06:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
The reason I originally contributed the external link to the foraminifera page on the Don Lindsay site (that started this whole thread) was that the original scientific article (Stable isotopic evidence for the sympatric divergence of Globigerinoides trilobus and Orbulina universa) was not available free and clear on the net. If it had been, I would have cited it in the section on ancestor/descendants.
I am not sure that the importance of this foraminifera series (and the radiolarian series) has been grasped. These foraminifera represent an empirically verifiable morphological transition over a continous sequence of strata. Evo-developmental data shows that these morpholgical changes represent real genetic changes and not just environmental variability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richardjb25 ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Both these sentences are OR as far as I'm concerned:
In the first place it is no part of the evolutionary synthesis that all organisms are in transition, and I bet you will not be able to find a statement from any of the main participants in the ev syn to support it. In transition to what, incidentally? Although some such as Dobzhansky defined evolution as a change in the frequency of alleles in a population, this definition was always strongly resisted by others, such as Mayr.
If by 'in transition' you mean speciation, then it is almost universally agreed that the rate of origin of new species varies in different groups (groups = higher taxonomic levels than species). It was Simpson who put this most forcibly. It is in the explanation of this observation that such as Gould differed from such as Mayr.
Because the rate of speciation differs so much (as observed in the fossil record) it is not right to say the whole phenomenon is a human construct, except in the sense that all taxonomy is a construct. The question as to whether species are an objective reality has been endlessly discussed. The majority view is 'yes', and that is why the 'biological species concept' is still seen as important. Like all natural systems, there can be debate about the details. The existence of change and evolution does not negate the reality of most species as ecological and population groups which can be identified with a large (and sometimes universal) consensus.
All that being the case, it is wrong (and OR) to suggest that transition from one taxonomic group to another is going on all the time, and the choice of a fossil as transitional is somehow at the whim of the observer ('human construct'). That is the reverse of the truth. The example of Archaeopteryx is apt, because almost no-one has disagreed with its transitional status, and it is only in recent years that any others have been included as dinosaur-bird transitions.
The context of this discussion is (as stated) the counter-attack by anti-Darwinians that no transitional species existed between higher groups. Today, the only issue is why they are so comparatively rare. The answer is widely agreed. It is because the transitions happen relatively fast, and in relatively small populations. This means that fossils of transitional species are comparatively rare. This is compared to the vast, slowly changing (or effectively static) populations which form the bulk of the biota at any one time.
Tailpiece: I especially like the "recognised in hindsight" bit. I've yet to meet a fossil any other way! Macdonald-ross ( talk) 06:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I understand your point better now, and "mixture of characteristics" was probably not ideal terminology. I have reworded the lead a little. I agree that the concept of "transitional" fossils is rooted in evolutionary taxonomy. With cladistics the concept would be more along the line of "organism similar to the common ancestor of" rather than "organism transistional between", but I think we are stuck with the older term and it is just necessary to, carefully and clearly, explain how the older concept fits in to the newer way of thinking. Rusty Cashman ( talk) 18:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
My point is the very definitions of Aves and Paraves, and Deinonychosauria might be arbitrary (and are in fact under debate). There are already some who are suggesting that Archaeopteryx belongs in Deinonychosauria along with Xiaotingia rather than in Aves. On the other hand with some of the older Dromaeosaridae looking more bird like than the later ones, and with some like microraptor almost certainly having some kind of flight, it has already been suggested that the Dromaeosaridae actually descended from birds that became secondarily flightless and thus are actually Aves or at least Avialae. After all if microrapter had been discovered in the 19th century instead of Archaeopteryx I think there is little doubt that it would have been hailed as the transitional fossil representing the first bird just as readily as Archaeopteryx was and for perfectly good reasons. Aves is an arbitrary division, and I put the odds at 50/50 that in the next couple of decades it gets expanded to include a number of what are now considered to be non-avian dinosaurs. This sort of thing has happened before much closer to home. Until the 1970s there were separate families of Pongidae and Hominidae, until it became clear from molecular analysis that separate clades for the great apes and Humans made no sense and violated the rules of cladistics, and all got rolled in to Hominidae. One of course wonders why the larger faimily (Pongidae) was rolled into the smaller family (Hominidae) rather than vice versa, but I guess it is good to be the ones drawing the lines. This is why I originally chose the word "arbitrary" to describe taxonomic divisions! Rusty Cashman ( talk) 19:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
This entire article is presenting anti-Intelligent design content without actually considering the theory. Evolution is a theory and Intelligent Design is a theory. Evolution is not PROVEN to be true and Intelligent design is not PROVEN to be false therefore many of these truth claims made in this article are false.
ob·jec·tive/əbˈjektiv/ Noun: A thing aimed at or sought; a goal. Adjective: (of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
In order for this page to be objective you need to consider both sides. This page clearly has a bias and all attempts to bring objectivity the the page are quickly removed by other users because of their personal beliefs, not because of the scientific evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pkl728 ( talk • contribs) 21:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Why are my arguments that refute the fact that these Vestigial organs are useless being removed? If you want to have a section which shows the arguments that Intelligent Design brings up then I would hope we would treat them fairly Pkl728 ( talk) 15:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)