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Over at Template talk:COI2, User:Dreadstar has raised the question of how long a COI2 tag should remain in place. Though I'm not aware of a rule, I'd like to ask the editors on this page on the state of their progress toward removing the problem that this tag was intended to signal. Since User:Michaelbusch is the one who placed the tag back in November, perhaps he can state whether his rewriting effort is still making progress. I don't see that others are obstructing his work, it just seems like it's taking a while. Since it's his tag, he should take responsibility that progress is being made, IMHO. He could also state how much change would be needed before it can be removed. EdJohnston ( talk) 03:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Given the fact that the main editors of this article work for various parts of the TM organization - Olive Timid - it seems remarkable fair in its assessment of TM and counter arguments to it - and congratulations need to go to both in their fairness. (Although I would argue that TM "Yogic Flying" should be included or at least linked to, as the claims made about this by the organizations founder might through light on other claims made. Equally, I think some mention should be made that former teachers claim that the mantras given are the names of Hindu deities - this I think would have an impact on the use of people with certain religious beliefs)
However, while understanding the problematic nature - and indeed valuelessness of the term CULT. I have some reservations about the counter argument:
"David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research showing greater autonomy, independence, and innovative thought in TM practitioners, as well as increases in creativity, general intelligence and moral reasoning. Cult followers, according to Orme–Johnson allegedly operate on blind faith, and adherence, usually rigid, to arbitrary rules and authority, whereas Orme-Johnson notes that these studies indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments." Firstly, because this simply links to his website and the fact that none of the 100 studies mentioned that "indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments" are either referenced or pointed to. Given his close association with TM would not instead be possible to simply point to these studies? I think this would greatly enhance the work dome so far. Really2012 ( talk) 07:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the neutrality tag at the top of the article can be removed if a neutral reader such as Really2012 feels the article is fairly written. Roseapple ( talk) 02:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
So Olive fixed the objectionable language Rracecarr pointed out in the cult paragraph. Perhaps Rracecarr can improve the other section. Roseapple ( talk) 14:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, please don't use my comments to suggest the neutrality tag should be removed - I'm afraid that this is not what I am suggesting. What i have said is that given the close - and paid full time - involvement with TM that the main editors of the article is remarkable unbiased - this does not mean that it is unbiased in a "normal" sense however. There is still very clever editing taking place to remove "controversial " areas of TM from the article. I am afraid the inclusion of Orme Johnson as evidence to counter the Cult argument is weak at best. The other points that I made in comments are of equal - and high relevance. Personally, I believe that if TM is to be considered non theological then and to be practiced by people of different faiths then mention needs to be made about the origins of the mantras used. Anyone with a basic understanding of esoteric Hindu thought will understand the importance of continued mantric repeating of a deities name. Equally, the claims made by the organization regarding yogic flying need to be included in my opinion. The Sidhu program is the natural extension of the mediation program mentioned here. Its claims are "controversial" to say the least and have to - in my opinion - throow doubt on other claims made by TM.
I believe presently that these are not included basically due to the nearly full time participation of the main TM associate editors - one would suspect that this would be easy to maintain when the said organization has it's own university and staff. Personally, I have no issues with TM and the "fairness of the article in some respects - as I said - should be applauded - however there does not excuse some of the more important omissions which, I think, are more important then inclusion of references to the cult ( both value ladden term in my opinon) issues for example. It is impossible to remove this tag in my opionion when the nearly "full time " editors are members of the argainsation whos wiki entry is under dispute - unless, perhaps, the issues I have mentioned are addressed. However, having read - quicly throw the discussion history I believe this will not be the case. Sorry
If these issues where examined I would be happy to suuport such a move. Really2012 ( talk) 23:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive/Timid - I have read, briefly, through the history of this article, so assume you are the same people each time and not a dedicated team at the TM University :-). Your comments, I am afraid, are the same as I have seen before and I am afraid do your selfs a dis-service. There are reliable sources as to the mantras used and indeed as to how these mantras are assigned. The lists are available from many places on the net - and indeed have been removed by yourselves on many occasions. You state that they do not come from reliable sources yet have been published by TM trained "trainers" It is difficult to see how one can get more reliable sources then this. All of these people have placed their biography's to be clearly seen. If you use the argument that they are former TM members and appear to be unhappy with the organization then you must remove the Orm Johnson links on the same basis, as a "former" member of your university staff and thus equally unreliable.
Your arguments about the Mantras being meaningless are equally not justified. For a devout Christan for example, to be reciting the name of a Hindu god unknowingly has many theological implications. Equally, to state that it is not important what the mantras mean either shows a lack of understanding of "esoteric" Hindu/Vedic thought and teaching or a willingness to hid this fact.
As to the yogic flying - well one has to ask what the issue is here? It is part of TM teaching, it is most certainly an advanced part of TM training. If one is happy to state the benefits of basic TM training Way be ashamed of it's advanced practices? Equally, I see that there is no mention of TMs "peace through meditation program" (or whatever it's called) A process whereby TM has stated that by combined mediation of its practitioners it can decrees crime rates in a certain geographical area. Indeed, TM has used "peer reviewed" research to prove it's effectiveness - via your version of unified field theory no doubt. Again, there is no mention of this and it seems that previous discussions about including have been ignored. Again, why is the faculty staff of the organizations university so reticent about its inclusion?
I am now aware that this will descend in to a long argument which will not be won by those of us without the full time resources - or the interest - of others. Instead this will "drag-on" until the none TMer gets bored and the comments are then hidden within chat history.
Sorry, but this does neither the organization, its academic staff or it's leader any "favors" and is why I cannot be used to remove the NPOV type tag. Sorry. Really2012 ( talk) 02:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Josha: I like your suggestions alot. . The only thing that I would take exception to is the Christan/Hindu god thing. Alas, it would be relevant. In Christan - and indeed Christian-Judaic tradition it would be important. There is much talk in Christian literature - indeed including it's main "references" text, the bible - regarding the worship of "false gods" And Christianity would indeed recognize their existence although in fundamental Christianity at least they would be considered at the lest "demons" (no offense to more reasoned Christians and certainly no offense to any Hindi readers). Indeed, many of the present Christian Demons - and indeed saints - had their origins in "pagan" gods - although this would be strongly denied (see St Bridgett in Eire for example). This is a very fundamental point in Christan thought, indeed, as it would be in certain substantial parts of Judaic and Muslim thought also.
As to no evidence that Hindu deities names are used in the mantras - well, the net is filled with former TM trainers - who have proved this in their bios - who have published these lists - lists that5 have been removed from this article. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of the "esoteric" sciences can see them clearly.
Finally: "A missing paragraph (Maharishi Effect) can never be a reason for a NPOV remark." I would agree but this is not the only reason for this marker. The clever editing of the article to remove many "controversial" issues is important. The manner in which many reasoned suggestions for change are "buried" and the fact that as it stands the article is written and manged by facility staff of the Maharishi University are all very problematic issues.
I repeat, alot of this article is very "fair" and reasoned and all credit to "Olive" and "Timid" but the fact that TM emphasizes research into its techniques which are "successful" but seems to want to distance itself from equally important things such as the Maharishi Effect, yogi flying and mantras does the editors and organization a disservice. Just because these issues might be controversial to those that can't see beyond the end of a test-tube - or some orthodox religion - does not mean that you should be ashamed of them. Grasp "all" of your organizations philosophies and be proud of them and support them. You might want to try and support every piece of your ideology/phiolosophy.theology via "scientific" "peer-reviewed" sources but TM is ultimately a philosophy and it is not always possible to use imperial research to support your arguments./ Go this route and you enter a place where, like other extremists - you are trying - also using peer reviewed papers, "named" scientists" - to prove the world was "created" in 7 days, every species on the planet can fit on one boat,. etc, etc, etc.
To misqoute Lao Tzu, "The thing that can be named, is not the thing itself."
Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 18:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
O, and to genuinely try to prove that I am "neutral" I would fully support the removal of the Cult" issues sections. Based-on the evidence given there there are other branches of "spiritual" thought that should have a similar section - including branches of fundamentalist Christianity and fundamental Muslim thought. This notion of a "cult" is just so value laden I have no idea why Olive and Timid have taken the time to counter it. Isn't there some "wiki" guidelines regarding the dangers of using this term? Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 18:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Really thanks for your comments. I think you are asking some important questions and maybe along with Josha's comments I can provide some rationales for the information in this article.
First what you see today is the result of numerous hours of discussion with editors who had numerous views on the article and on TM . What you see is a result of consensus . Thats the Wikipedia way , and I support the neutrality of that completely.I have no desire to slant this article in anyway that is not neutral from any side of the coin .... I guess coins only have two side... but you get my meaning.
Really, I hope this helps explain the way in which this article in its present incarnation came into being.From my side only if we are completely neutral can this encyclopedia continue to exist. Thanks so much for your comments . It actually helps me summarize in my own mind what was done in the last year and why .( olive ( talk) 19:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC))
You know "Olive" a sociologist with an interest in the sociology of religion would find the discussion page of this article far more illuminating then the article itself. :-) We most continue. Bear with me will I find the time. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 20:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid: you said "WTA. There's also a policy that restricts use of self-published sources, which includes personal web sites" That excludes Orm Johnson then - especially given his links with TM and your university. It makes no difference that he is an expert in Psychology. Shall I remove him or you? Or should we ask the wiki skeptics group? Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 23:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you get the wrong idea Timidguy. Let me explain - I should really make my position clear - I am a "TMer" - practice everyday, without fail - although in fairness over the years have learned a number of other techniques non of which I feel are incompatible and non of which are less important then others. Indeed, often use various techniques during commenting in WIKI - I find it useful. My issues with certain people within the "movement" are clear within this article. In a desperate attempt to make TM a scientifically, empirically backed "proof" there is a desperate attempt by some to keep away from those areas of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's teaching which are either impossible to prove empirically at this stage or more "spiritual" n nature. For whatever reason - no doubt to gain back-door acceptance in to the secular world - there are those in TM who seem to want to -if not deny then "brush aside" that TM is part of the Vedic tradition and is thus a spiritual one. All of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Thoughts and teaching are thus important. Why pretend that they do not exist in this article? Anyone interested in TM in the first instance will come here first. Are we to a assume that the editors believe that other aspects of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi are so bizarre they need to be prepare first? As I said, this policy does TM a great disservice and reflects a a policy I have seen grow not from Maharishi but the Maharishi University of Management - as if the "movements "intellectual elite" and I use the term loosely - are ashamed of it;s spiritual dimension.
This is similar to the sort of research that is used to support TM#s effectiveness in reducing psychsocialphysiological stress and its - sometimes recorded - benefits to health. The positive effects of mediation, in most but not all, has long been researched and recorded. This is nothing new yet is often present by those academics within the TM movement as if it is exclusive, One could of course quote that when it is compared to other forms of mediation it appears more effective but this will only every be in the short term. Anyone who has studied vedic science will understand that internalization of a mantra will induce a form of mediation quicker then any other. This does not mean that it is either better or worse , although the some thought, a large part indeed, will suggest that this is less then a desirable method in the long term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012forgotpassword ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: "Archbishop Cardinal Sin.... interesting name" indeed :-) . I would like to see - specifically with in this article - more references to the TM-Sidhi Program - and naturally Yogic Flying. As the main TM website itself says: "The TM-Sidhi program is a natural extension of the Transcendental Meditation® program and may be learned after two months of regular practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique" It is recognized by Maharishi as an important part of TM, he has stated this on many occasions - to excluded a mention of it is simply not logical within the context of an entry on TM, especially as a TM practitioner should be ready for it within two months TM practice. I am aware that it makes some of the "intellectuals in the "movement" "uneasy" a situation much different to the early 80's oddly enough - as its effects are more difficult to prove empirically and indeed it has been the cause of derision amongst some. However, can you/we really ignore it? I'm aware that you will say it is covered in it's own entry elsewhere - but to not even give a brief overview here? And a link to that article. Should we really be ashamed of something that Maharishi has said its intention is to "To develop higher states of consciousness, bring Life into accord with natural law,and create heaven on earth"? Simply, despite concerted efforts by some within MUM it is empirically difficult rationalize or "prove"? I posted this elsewhere today regarding the desperate attempt by some - and no offense to either of you I can assure you - to empericise "spirituality" - it may give a clearer understanding to you of my particular POV =- you will need to stay with it to the end of it's 4 minutes :-) By the way, in my "non spiritual life" I am a scientist - its no doubt obvious from the poor grammar and spelling ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkck99hyYWk Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 22:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Really .... actually the whole decision as far as I can remember in regards to the TM Sidhi program just had to do with length and trying to find the place to draw the line ... I think its possible to add something but lets discuss it further ... maybe TG will weigh in on this.( olive ( talk) 22:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: thanks for your reply. I do hope so. I'm afraid that I will be a little absent over the next few weeks - i have an horrendous research proposal that needs completing in "real life". However, I will attempt to to contribute when possible. To be honest regarding the articles length - there are far, far longer articles then this one and I should think it would be possible to offset any such objections easily. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 00:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
However, I think it should be nothing more then an overview with a link to the relevant wiki article. Equally, I think there should be little need to analyze, critise or support it here - that is done elsewhere. Just my view. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 00:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Since this sentence seemed to be a point of contention and since the addition by Rracecar is not correct, as far as all of the sources I have seen go, the best and most obvious move is to remove the sentence completely. It really is a redundant piece of information that serves no purpose.( olive ( talk) 16:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC))
Hi. The Maharishi Effect is straight up paranormal. Can it be explained by science as we know it? No. Ok, it's paranormal. That's not OR, that's the definition of paranormal.
As for the info on MUM, it is important that it be included. David Orme-Johnson is being presented as a researcher who has shown that TM has beneficial effects. Readers should not have to click on the name of the university that employed him, and read that separate article, in order to discover that it is not unaffiliated with the TM movement, but rather is at the very heart of it. There is an important conflict of interest that should not be glossed over. Rracecarr ( talk) 21:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea why this should be aggravating. Its just a nice little discussion.: ) You shouldn't add paranormal because its not sourced. Not if we're playing Wikipedia rules, and I am. OJ doesn't say this on the web-site. You are pulling a word out of the air... read... its not sourced, and assuming to use it. Whether the Maharishi effect is paranormal or not, whatever you define that to be is not the issue, and is as well a whole other discussion. Apple is a fruit is really a far fetched comparison, unless you live in a place where there are no apples and no fruit and then you'd probably have to source the references for the lay reader who has no clue what an apple is.( olive ( talk) 01:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC))
Defintions of Paronormal:
Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation. www.upisociety.com/vocabulary.html
Describes events or abilities beyond or above normal human powers or senses. www.reiki.nu/treatment/healing/dictionary4/dictionary4.html
Pertaining to a direct effect upon the physical world through means that are not amenable to scientific analysis. May include magic, psionics, and mutant powers. www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/SocDefs.html
Approaching paranormal phenomena from a research perspective is often difficult because even when the phenomena are seen as real they may be difficult to explain using existing rules or theory. By definition, paranormal phenomena exist outside of conventional norms. Skeptics contend that they don't exist at all. Despite this challenge, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers study just the beliefs in paranormal phenomena regardless of whether the phenomena actually exist. wiki
The "Maharishi Effect" is certainly easily defined by these terms and thus it is a paranormal "effect"
I'm also with the inclusion of Orm Johnsons affiliation with MUM and a brief explanation of what MUM is within this context. This is highly important within the scope of encyclopedic entry as it clarifies his position statement and that his defense of TM against occult charges may be heavily value laden.
On this basis I equally believe that this description should be reinserted. Indeed, somewhat disapointed as I thought it was the MUM affilated editors who had inserted it Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 01:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok. lets just begin here with assume good faith. I like any other editor here work very hard to edit in the most neutral way possible. Let me add, that there is no reason for me to influence this material except in the most neutral way possible. That kind of editing will not serve the knowledge this article presents. Either that knowledge can stand truth or it can't . I'm not making that decision here. That said, thanks for you definition of paranormal .... But, and again.... thats not the issue. We are dealing with two pillars of Wikipedia policy .... verifiable and reliable .... and we can add OR to that .Please show me the quote that states that OJ considered this to be paranormal or that anywhere in this literature does the word paranormal arise . Then where did the word come from . It was introduced by an editor .... thats not encyclopedic for a word that requires a definition such as the definition you just added to the discussion. As an aside, The original linked reference to MUM was decided on with the consensus of editors editing at that time and was deemed the appropriate way to indicate Orme-Johnson's former affiliation with the university.( olive ( talk) 01:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: Thank you for your feedback, however, I am not convinced that it actually counters the argument for leaving the section as it is. The basic thrust of your argument is that it was decided sometime ago to with the wording that it presently has. However, WIKI is very much a "living" encyclopedia - it's very nature allows continuous edits. Simply because in the past a decision was made that this was the correct style to use does not mean that it is now. I personally like the new edit and believe it makes any "political" position that might exist in Orm Johnson's opinion clear. I am sure as a nurural editor you would want to make sure everyones position was clear Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 01:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid - I'am afraid so, if they are being used to counter a critism of said organiastion - unless of course they are ashamed of their affiliation - which is an issue of little concern to us here I am afraid Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 02:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid: Sorry you have lost me - no idea what you are on about - apologies. Anyway, seems thats settled then. Now all we need to do is address the other issues I have raised including the introduction of the Sidhu Program - which seems to have stalled abit. I think Olive was waiting on your impute TG Really2012back ( talk) 15:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I disagree with you TG - the Sidhu programs does need to be included - it has been stated by your leader as an obvious extension of the practice in TM and is obtainable within two months of TM. As it is simply an extension of the mantras it makes perfect sense and needs to be included. The only thing now is how that should be done.
As to the peer reviewed studies as I have said in the Sidhu article I am happy to leave this in - but where these have been managed by members of MUM, we need to include a reference to this each time they are cited - in the interest of clarity of course Really2012back ( talk) 16:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it was referenced on the Orm site - I think this is simply a matter of wording - within all definitions of the term the marhisian effect - or whatever it is called is a Paranormal effect, by any definition of that word. Racccarr could have used any other number of words , psudo-scientific for example, but wisely chose the non value laden paranormal. Indeed, having re looked at the article I think it maybe wise to reclassify it - although keeping the "alternative health" marker I think. I was thinking logically it could fit under paranormal and also Spiritual or perhaps "new age" Not sure which really - I must start another discussion I suppose - o well Really2012back ( talk) 17:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
O sorry Olive I didn't read your full point. Not back down? Goodness I don't think theres any need for such defensive reaction. Lets try and get on and work this out. I personally am off to meditate for a moment and I am sure things will seem clearer - they always do you.know Really2012back ( talk) 17:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: I agree with your last point - and I think you will notice i have only ever discussed changes but not directly made them - at least not yet. However, what seems to happen is this.
i make a point, lets say about the inclusion of the Sidhu program. there is much back and through with you and TG. this goes on for some time - then i will get agreement with either you or Tg - you in this case. rather then make changes myself I will leave it up to you guys - nothing happens. i mention it again and then the the one of you says no and then threatens to raise a dispute. i have traveled the history of this article and i am not the only one to have experienced this or noted it. If these is not a fair preci what has happened then I aoplogis but that it howit appears to meand also others
I am a neutral editor - but when a new age science makes claims to have health benefits - including reducing cortisone, and increasing live expectancy by 25% in the case of patients recovering form carioic shock - then i do have more then a passing interest and indeed, under my professional body have an obligation to examine it.
So let us start a fresh slightly shall we. Let us list each of the contentious "sentences" and here come up with alternative wording as to how they should, or should not be included.
As I presently see it these are:
1 The label of paranormal once within the article 2 The inclusion of the sidhu program as natural extension of the general TM method 3 Some way of high lighten research cited which has been conducted by members or associates of MUM 4 The inclusion of some critique sites - where those critiquing have been published or are experts in their field. This is on the basis of Orm Johnsons sites inclusion =- although this maybe a contentious issue but needs to be addressed.
I think these are the main issues at the moment and if we can all work together over each point and look at how this can be addressed and worded - constructing the sentences here in talk - I think we can ALL: benefit. Thoughts Olive TG? Peace Really2012back ( talk) 19:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
To counter the statement: "A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[41" The following phrase has been used: "Other researchers have found that the Transcendental Meditation technique has no correlation with these conditions.[42]" The reseach article used to support this is: ^ Herron, Robert E., et al: 1996, “Cost-Effective Hypertension Management: Comparison of Drug Therapies with an Alternative Program,” The American Journal of Managed Care Vol. 11, No. 4, p. 433 However, having read the article in question I am not even convinced that this is actually what it says. However, of even greater worry to me is the nutrality of the researchers concerned. While I have not checked all of them as yet I note that Robert H. Schneider, is Professer of Physiology at MUM - which jas to through some doubt in to nutrality, Charles N. Alexander worked closley with Orm Johnson see for example " Reducing Conflict and Enhancing Quality of Life in Israel Using the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program: Explanation of a Social Research Project", Kenneth G. Walton, Ph.D, is Associate Professor, Neurochemistry Laboratory MUM, etc
Indeed, I am presently struggling to find people in this research paper who are not in someway positively connected to MUM. (Shall begin to look more closely at the other research cited throughout this article later. can it not be possible to find a paper not run by TMers to support this counter argument. Or perhaps we need to add within the article in all cases of research affiliation with MUM and the researches authors? That seems a little tedious but I suppose we can look at it. Indeed, perhaps this needs further investgation and insertion in this artcle asa seperate section? 02:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Really2012forgotpassword ( talk)
Olive: Indeed, I agree I was just surprised that Tidid wished to raise it again - but I am happy to discuss Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 02:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the following:
and cumulative effects in the mind with regular practice.( Travis, Arenander & DuBois 2004) , body ( Barnes, Treiber & Davis 2001) and behavior ( Barnes, Bauza & Treiber 2003) .
Two of the studies (Barnes) don't really seem to show cumulative effects. One is simply another hypertension study and the other looks at classroom behavior. Neither is longitudinal. The third study could go in a possible section on cumulative effects (which was deleted some time ago and which we had consensus to restore. It had been deleted without any discussion and was sourced to peer-reviewed research). TimidGuy ( talk) 17:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Summarizing discussions -please add points
As per Really's Suggestion: ( pasted here for ease) 1 The label of paranormal once within the article 2 The inclusion of the sidhu program as natural extension of the general TM method 3 Some way of high lighten research cited which has been conducted by members or associates of MUM 4 The inclusion of some critique sites - where those critiquing have been published or are experts in their field. This is on the basis of Orm Johnsons sites inclusion =- although this maybe a contentious issue but needs to be addressed.
Issues of contention:
1. Paranormal, Orm Johnson, Maharishi effect.
I'd like to suggest we look at this group of words since there's more trouble here than just with paranormal:
"proponent of the paranormal Maharishi Effect,"
Against inclusion:
OJ has published the research and summarizes it. I quote a scientist friend on this:
he has been a researcher of it and has published (again in top peer reviewed journals) on it - he simply studied it and reported what he found - to suggest or imply anything else is to introduce OR and to implicate not only David, but the reviewers who critiqued and accepted the findings for publication and the journal editors who published the papers
For inclusion:add points —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littleolive oil ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, Olive let us break it down as we would for our students. Very reasonable - although I cringe now re-reading my sentence structure - must be tired. Just to clarify things further - because there are so many points - can we give each item its own subheading - just to ease discussion . So if we could perhaps rename this heading: Issue of contention Paranormal, Orm Johnson, Maharishi effect.
Can I suggest one other thing, let us look at each thing not from our own POV but the real reason for this article and that is that people who come to Wiki who seek impartial information about TM get get just that; honest, non value laden, "truth" about this mediative practice. Looking at each, Paranormal: Personally I think this is a matter of semantics - on everyones behave myself included. What is not important here is whether the Marhisha effect is paranormal, new age, empirically proven or pseudoscience. I think It would have been just as easy for raccar to have said the new-age Maharishi effect, the empirically proven Maharishi effect, the pseudo scientific Maharishi effect. What he is doing here is making a judgment on how best to classify this effect - he is not saying that this is how Orme Johnson would classify it but how an independent, external observer would classify this process given the evidence and definition of paranormal. Now before even attempting to clarify this - if we indeed need to in the context of this article - let us look as to why it was necessary in the firstly place.
The point of identifying Orm Johnsons close affiliation with MUM is that it MIGHT - but that doesn't mean it does - throw some skepticism on the fact that he is the source used to counter this cult argument. I think we have all now agreed that that it is important to mention this affiliation - although we might differ on how to word this. And this we can look look at next. So, we might just have said : " David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (founded by the creator of TM, a place at which all students and faculty practice TM every day), and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research...."
Doing this we identify to the reader that he might be biased - or might not and to some that he may not be the best person to counter the cult argument - or perhaps by his close association with TM he is the best person. If that makes sense - we are simply clarifying his back round and how this might effect our judgment of his analysis.
On this basis what does the expression "..proponent[54] of the paranormal Maharishi Effect..." bring to the first time reader and more importantly is it important to the discussion in question? I have somewhat mixed feelings about this. It is obvious that what we are discussing here is TM and not the Maharishi effect - a different thing. Whether this effect is classified as paranormal, pseudoscience, empirically proven, etc is not important in this context - what is important is whether it adds to the readers understanding. Personally, at this stage I am unsure it does. Really2012back ( talk) 01:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you TG . I have made a brief suggested rewrite of "offending" sentence. Perhaps you might do the same from your perspective here while we wait for Rracecarr to comment? I think that will keep us "moving forward". Peace. Really2012back ( talk) 13:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
reporting that a change in "A" (whatever that might be) is correlated to a change in "B" is straight science based on statistical analysis - that this is repeated in many separate studies is scientifically more compelling and substantiates the statistical link - further the research results themselves are not unusual or "paranormal" (for which there is no generally accepted scientific definition in any case)
Thanks Rraccarr... My comment and opinion are serious and honest and I assume you opinion is too. Adding fact tags on every word is an extreme and not what I'm suggesting . Nor am I suggesting that the term Paranormal cannot be applied to ME if someone really wants to push the definition that way. There are two issues here . You are focused on the fact that in your mind ME is paranormal and everyone should know it . And I am saying, hey, thats fine. Prove it with the reference. If you can't, its not encyclopedic.(
olive (
talk)
19:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC))
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (founded by Maharsihi Mahesh Yogi creator of the TM technique)...
(undent) You have a point. However, my aim is partly to establish some sort of baseline of reality and logic--without these there can be no useful argument. I have doubts about the likelihood of a productive debate with editors who won't acknowledge bald facts. Rracecarr ( talk) 19:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we have come a little unstuck here, however, I think that is my fault not explaining myself fully perhaps.
We have two different arguments here:
1 - How we should structure the reference to Orm Johnson - i.e. how much - briefly - information do we need to give about him for the new reader to decide how to evaluate his counter argument that TM is a "cult". Ie, what information does the new reader need to help their decision process? To me they need to know:
1 That He is a TM researcher 2 That he is qualified in psychology. 3 That he has worked at MUM - for many years 4 That he is an avid supporter of the TM technique. 5 That he is a TM meditator.
All of these facts need to be clarified in a description of who he is - and I think we all have agreed to this - although Olive has concerns about how this can be described aesthetically - which is a very good point and one we can easily address.
2 However, our biggest 2 points of contention here seem to be:
1 That the ME is paranormal process 2 That OJ is a proponent of this technique.
Before getting our selfs embroiled in a discussion of whether these two factors are true - which I think we need to when we hopefully next turn to the Sidhu Program article in WIKI. - do we need to include this information here? It is certain that we are not discussing the ME in the cult section - the cult accusations come from the practice of the TM technique - and perhaps how this effect grows during the Sidhu Program although I am unaware that this has ever been stated.
So, will defining the ME as paranormal - or anything else - be helpful to the reader in this paragraph? Will it add anything further to their ability to judge OJ's ability to counter arguments that TM is a cult? Personally, I feel not. Thoughts.
Olive: I have a PhD in "science" - or at least a few of them and, if we are going to name check universities, a far older and more "respected" university then Stanford, my university tie proves it :-P. As well as lecturing in my particular "brand" of science - in which I am also involved in an "applied manner" I also,lecture on the philosophy of science and I am afraid that the definition of science/non paranormal given by your friend is not correct. This is oversimplified perhaps but: It is not just necessary to show that A causes B. You must also assign a reasonable explanation - within the confines of known "science - whether physics, chemistry, physiology, biochemistry, etc, etc how A causes B. For example, The Druid priest may have conducted a ritual every winter solstice to make sure that the Sun was reborn three days latter. Each year it did, this does not mean that the Druids sun ritual caused the sun to rise although - from their point of view a did indeed cause B. Anther example, each year a "primitive" group of people notice that certain species of bird - lets call this species "Foolish" - fly south , before the nights grow shorter, the snows come, it gets colder, the crops begin to die - let us call this time winter. Noticing this year after year - these people come to the reasoned argument - based on logic designed by one of their philosophers - that A cause B. Thus they decide, through observation and statistical analysis that it is the Foolish flying south at a certain time each year that "cause" winter - A causes B.
TM is a little like this I am afraid. I am aware that some of your physicists have attempted to explain the ME using versions of unified field theory but these have not been accept and are to heavily - and indeed to easily, argued against to use as a valid theory. (lets be honest every "new age theory has attempted to do so). In very simply terms ME "works" by the power of thought to influence the environment and actions of others. This IS a "paranormal" effect - one might even argue some form of psychokinesis. Therese no way to explain it within present scientific knowledge and research into it simple cannot control all of the variables yet to even support it's causal effect. Neither have enough studies been done to even try to.
However, - although I think we will have to address this issue eventually, even if only within the context of the Sidhu Program entry - I repeat is this important at this stage in the article - ie does it have relevance to OJs ability to counter the cult allegations? Really2012back ( talk) 23:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive - sorry it was a joke, hence the :-P symbol at the end, And I know you didn't say MUM you said Stanford - I assume the university - I was being facetious, but in a good mannered way :-). my apologies. O, and I have no difficulty academic credetials of MUM staff - you seem to have some good peole working there. Really2012back ( talk) 00:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
That sounds a not unresonable solution Rracecarr - or even "At least one advocate of TM have has responded by stating ..." Something like that? Really2012back ( talk) 14:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: TG,sorry just read your comment "If he ever goes before ArbCom, his violation of the three-revert rule and the subsequent warning by an Admin will be a serious mark against him. Ultimately we're still going to want to get consensus on that edit." Seems a little harsh - firstly he reverted it once, secondly you yourseldf have been accused of edit wars, three the issues of yourself and COI - have been raised on many occassions. Just noting. Really2012back ( talk) 17:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, I m sureyou would befar better at it then me - please Really2012back ( talk) 23:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)start the process.
Since both Really's and TG comments indicate we should be able to move ahead, I have rephrased the sentence under discussion. Some changes include:
And of course, open for discussion.( olive ( talk) 17:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: Thank you for that - however 2 things:
1 We really need to give rcecccar time to res[pond. 2 Given the disputed nature of the article lets work out how the sentnce - for everything we are going to do - structure in here first please and then once we have agreement commit to the page. Really2012back ( talk) 00:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Add, for example many of the studies he is citing are his own or those of those affiliated with MUM. Can we simply bring the paragraph in here and work on it. This might be longer but the best in the long run. Equally, while Im not convinced of the paronormal tag, it maybe wise to mention tm is studied each day at the university and other factors trelavent to this pararaph ref Orm Johnson. Because Racc has not had time to respond yet I have reverted the item till we he can and we all agree on how it should be structured Really2012back ( talk) 00:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: the points I make may indeed have been discussed ad infinitum, but not resolved and certainly not enough to alllow a rewrite at this stage. It is true that Rracecarr maybe busy with RL - this is why we need to give him time to respond - a day is hardley enough time. Also, I have given thought to his inclussion of the discription paronormal and may have more to say iof he does not respond. .
Really2012back (
talk) 02:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC) .
Really2012back (
talk)
02:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive the word "The" isn't sourced in the article but it is used never-the-less. I believe this is how your "discussion" went with Raccacer" which ended up with you cited some friend from Standford on an incorrect description of the scientific method. So, no it is not resolved and - again - you miss-use wiki guidelines to further your own cause. The "effect" in question is paranormal and it may require that template being applied to its own article and perhaps this one by association. if you would like me to do so then we can discuss. Really2012back ( talk) 03:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition: As both I and Rracecarr have said the association between paronormal and "the effect" in question does not need referencing - however should you want to refernce this word - a waste of time reallt - you can do so using this Evaluating Heterodox Theories Journal article by Evan Fales; Social Forces, Vol. 76, 1997 - I shall look for more. S I have said /I have yet to decide whether to argue for its inclusion. I had decided against it but perhaps I am wrong Really2012back ( talk) 03:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition 2 I'm a fast reader: I notice that in his book "Maharishi Effect: A Personal Journey Through the Movement That Transformed American Spirituality" Geoff Gilpin cites the efect as being paronormal. Indeed, considering that this book won awards, was published by a major publisher there is no mention of it in the wiki artcle here. I assume we will need to address this? Really2012back ( talk) 04:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition 3 in A Methodological Critique of a Test of the Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field The Journal of Conflict Resolution, Vol. 34, No. 4 (Dec., 1990), pp. 745-755
The author refers to the paronormal effects of the ..um..."Maharisi effect" Really2012back ( talk) 04:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you wish for me to continue or do you think these are enough references? Really2012back ( talk) 04:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Reality is subjective experince Olive and if that is how you feel then I am sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 18:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that one of our Christian Fundamentalist friends has removed the clarification of who OJ is and his back round on the basis that this is "hype". I give up. I'm going away, I don't want to play anymore. No wonder MUM is so involved in this article - Poor sods. A battle between the hoppers and "I'm going to get sucked-up into the sky at any momenters". "Now how can I speed this up? I know, I'll reinstate the Israeli state to generate conflict in the middle East - and fulfill bible "prophecy" while electing complete warmongering, prolife "nutters" to the white house - although they are believers". I don't want to play anymore, There is no logic to this at all. No wonder I dislike getting involved in religious articles. Hopping for peace and charging for it? Sounds better then praying for Armageddon and damming homosexual men to "eternal damnation in ...um..."hell". I've had enough, out of here. Peace Really2012back ( talk) 08:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This needs rewording:
"Effects on the physiology
Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. The first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13]
This research found that the Transcendental Meditation technique produced a physiological state that was termed "restful alertness." During the practice of the technique the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, yet EEG measurements showed increased coherence and integration of brain functioning,[14] indicating that the physiology was alert rather than asleep.[15]
Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood).[16]"
In its present state it is missleading - a brief examination of pubmed presently shows the results of 755 peer reviewed studies finding exactly the same results for other mediative practices including Tai Chi. As it presently reads it seems thatthis efects - are to only be found in TM. We need to re-wright to take this into account. Thoughts Really2012back ( talk) 03:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG. I think you are partly right and a very good point. I'm really not suggesting a major re-write and perhaps my comment seems a little harsh and I did not explain my self correctly sorry. Let me do so and we can discus's
Again, for the new reader coming to the article further information, they will of course want to know what physiological effects the practice of TM meditation has - if any. And indeed, we can see that it does seem to have some good positive effects. However, it would, I think it can be argued necessary to point out that the same effects can be found in a wide range of meditative practices. This is especial so as the article mentions in place studies done by those associated with MUM, etc that found TM had more positive effects then other practices - at least one study.
Equally, as you know, have criticized TM studies due to bias and poor methodology, i think that ut would actually su[pport the "positive" effects of TM by pointing out that these have been also found in a wide range of other mediative practices also. I think some times the "positve" effects of TM and meditation get confused with with other aspects and are seen negatively. Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The re-write I was thinking would be something like: "As with many other meditave practices such as yoga, tai chi, etc, Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during..."
Something like this TG. Just a mention nothing to contentious and keeping the focus on TM. What do you think? Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG - it depends on how you do your search either in Medline or Pubmed.The following is Pubmed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez. These are available to the general public and to be honest I have deliberately left the search wide - 1465 results.I assume at MUM you will have academic access to Medline, CINAHL,COCHRANE, etc. This engine's are far better IMO and what I recommend to my students however, pubmed is where I tell them to start - at least in the first year.Have a play around using different search criteria related to meditation and you will see what Imean. hose outside of "medicine" find it easy to believe that it is only TM that shows these results. This is in great part due to MUM and the fact that other meditative techniques are simply not that good at this type or promotion or simply do not think it is relevant - hence the research tends to be done by far less personally interested parties. I am old TG - and have been through this debate with my own medical council back in the 80s - 84 to be precise. Although those supporters of what has become known as Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction MBSR are becoming a more organized group - no doubt due the the involvement of University of Massachusetts Medical School and the fact that in USA these courses, videos, etc are offered free. Due to University of Massachusetts Medical School there has been an explosion in peer reviewed papers - check
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/research/index.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=42066.
You will see that not only do these studies show the benefits you mention but even seem to show benefits in patient with Epilepsy, ADHD a, schizophrenia and even chronic hepatitis C.
You can see from this why I believe that it is important for the new reader that these findings are not specific to TM or indeed that other practices have found even greater benefit. Peace my friend Really2012back ( talk) 18:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Naturezak sorry i didn't see your comment. I agree completely and would have to say that it is the same with other mediative techniques - I think it is for this reason that most meditation teachers simply remove themselves from the argument and do not cite the research. All of these statements to outcome - except psychosocial effects as self reported perhaps - are only valued if you accept fully the more "extreme" ends of the psychosocialphysioimmunological/gene repair - theory/s of "health" and these are far from excepted despite 1000s of research papers and peer reviewed journals specifically written for them - indeed, since the mid/late 90s these theories seem to be falling out of favor. Fully agree.Although oddly, not a debate i wish to enter into - I have bben through this far to many times in RL - and am frankly a tad bored of it. Really2012back ( talk) 18:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG - while a good point I would have to disagree, The MAC/PC analogy is a good one but it would be common knowledge to everyone that you can use a MAC to word process as well as a PC - although the results would be a tad different. Readers new to this subject -meditation - would be unaware that you the effects achieved in TM - and so well documented in this article by supporting research - are just as easily achieved by so many other sources. To use the the same analogy. It would be like saying: "research by watts, watts and watts has proven that an IPM PC can allow the reader to play an electronic version of patience easily and with no difficulty" Well, yes but the same is possible on a PC. It really does appear at the moment that this effects are specific to TM meditation - and this is blatantly untrue. I am not questioning that it should be unbiased - Ie - as is the case - a combination of Tia Chi and Yoga - has appeared to show an increase in life expectancy in HIV patients yet no such research has found a link with TM.
However, what we have here are standard effects that need to be shown as the same for most forms of meditation. As to Travis's research - sheer nonsense I am afraid. Gamma waves are "strenuous"? what? "...mindfulness meditation, the brain appears to be imbalanced" The brain is imbalanced? I like you TG and understand you are not a scientist and certainly not a physiologist or nuropshysiologist. Indedd, "inbalanced maybe a good thig and what one would be looking for. I havn'e the time here but perhaps this might help -if its the right study -im in a rish Takahashi T, Murata T, Hamada T, Omori M, Kosaka H, Kikuchi M, Yoshida H, Wada Y.
Department of Neuropsychiatry, Faculty of Medical Sciences, University of Fukui, Matsuoka-cho, Fukui 910-1193, Japan.
Anyway, my friend here in this article it is the the positive effects on physiological effects that are generally being cited, cortisone levels, etc - ie control of biomedical markers that are considered responsible by "some" in leading to "illness" these - and the fact that people self report to a feeling of "restfullness" yet more alert with "increasded" "cognitive function" are not unique to TM and this needs needs to be stressed. Really2012back ( talk) 08:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, what is the best way of doing this? Simply adding the statment "as with other meditiative practices such as .....it has been found that TM..." or can we thisnk of a different way of doing it? Really2012back ( talk) 08:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
PS,I noticed that Fred Travis is another highly active TMer http://www.fredtravis.com/ - is any research in TM with "positive effects" actually done by non TMrs? Joke. :-) Peace my friend —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012back ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
TG, Well, you ain't doing to bad bud, However, back to "restful alertness" the reason you are struggling with that - as I think you have pointed out accidental, is that there is no such medical/scientific concept - outside of TM it would seem - its "a made up" concept with absolutely no grounding in any science/medical/psychological text book. I believe it owes its origins to a term coined sometime in the early 7o's at the beginning of that decades craze for studies on meditation - in a paper studying TM. Its absolute nonsense - but I really didn't want to get into that and won't - I promise. As to the neurophsyiological correlates, well again you really don't want me to go down that road - but Travis "party trick" at pro TM conferences is always a good laugh. One can see the non science student wowing all over the place,(even if they have no idea whats going on.) as a young TMer is dragged out - electrodes in place - and told to begin meditation
However, the other things are shown to be lowered or heightened depending,such as, plasma cortisol levels, increased vasodilation here, dilation there, increased alertness, academic performance etc, etc, etc. have been found to take place in many other forms of meditation - these are simply the results of successful meditation - this cannot be argued.
For example the lines:
"Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood)" This found repeatly with other forms of meditation It has to be necessary to mention this - without getting into details - not to would turn this from an encyclopedic entery into a brochure - and I really believe that is not what you want. Tell you what though, I'll do you a deal,you can keep "restful wakefullness" especial for TM. Don't say I never do you any favors :-). Although, I should point out that restful alertness seems to have been kidnapped by other al;ternative medicine people noy. Seems the highly published - and thus wiki compliant - Harold Bloomfield, M.D. says you can achieve this using some Ayurvedic herbal remedies he seems to be selling: http://soulfulliving.com/quintessentialpeace.htm, theres another company offering restful wakefulness in a bottle: http://www.functiondrinks.com/science-va.php, Seems your days are nearly up TG So, how to proceed. Really2012back ( talk) 19:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry TG I don't "need" to convince you of anything. I know its not what you mean but that makes it sound like you "own" the article. i have stated reasonably that as it is presently worded the results stated are found across a wide range of meditative practices. so far that only ones i cannot find else where are:
It reduces your biological age by 12 years - you can keep that one.
Alert wakefullness - a meaningless term, you can keep that one.
Doing other forms of meditation are able to alter reality and make people do what you want them to - you can keep that one.
Unless, you can show that TM is unique in:
"Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. The first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13], and Studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of high blood pressure,[17] younger biological age,[18] decreased insomnia,[19] reduction of high cholesterol,[20] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[21] decreased outpatient visits,[22] decreased cigarette smoking,[23] decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25]. Then this are nothing more then general events found in nearly all other meditative practices. Unless this wiki article is a promotional item only for TM there is no reason why each can not be proceed by "As with other other mediative practices it has been found that TM...." this would be the correct encyclopedic entry - without doubt. Really2012back ( talk) 01:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: TG. Of course should you want a recent, peer reviewed meta study which has examined mediation, the effects of mediation and states that the results of TM are the same - and comparable to other forms of meditation , then I suppose you would want to read this recent report: http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf. Page 29 on wards will be of interest to you. You will also notice that it critiques the assumptions of improvement in health made by TM - and indeed all other meditative practices. i think you will find this report fully WIKI compliant and we can reference this rather then then the 1000s of studies in Pubmed for example - might save some time really. And of course - as I think you were worried about - not being original research.
So, how shall we go about the editing process? Really2012back ( talk) 01:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, just a quickie - heading off to Oxford - you might know it? :-). I hope your mediation went well and that everything is well with the world. Aye, I have read the critique also, am familiar with it's author etc - and don't agree but hey, that would be original research. TG I think I'm coming across as an arse and that is not meant. Personally, i' m not bothered about the critique of TM - or indeed, any other form of meditation in that report. I do believe that it is correct about alot of it's comments regarding meditation research - alas. Although to me it missed a golden opportunity to critique these called "health benefits" of the changes in physiology this research believes it detects. But I have said before this is an argument I have had in RL for many years and I'm to bored with to get involved here. My main point, is that the way the article is written at the moment it appears that TM is alone in the changes many of the changes that occur. There are two ways to rectify this:
1 State exactly what those changes are - ie list the exact levels of changes in biomedical markers. <2> Admit that there are common changes thought meditation and say so - where they occur - briefly. Personally, I wouldn't go down the route of citing the report in question and it's critics - but hell thats your decision.#
I shall leave you in peace for the weekend my friend, enjoy it, etc. Peace Really2012back ( talk) 17:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
HI TG Athens~? I have been but alas no I don't live there - wish I did. I Oxford was Oxford - same old - you know what it's like - but enjoyable, thank you. I think thats a slight misunderstanding of no original research but perhaps that is my fault. That ruling refers to original unpublished research basically. This ismy fault asi am not explaining what i mean correctly TG - sorry. If the article said for example - "TM has been shown to decrease cortisol plasma levels by 23% below physiologically norms" for example -and other meditation research said that other forms of meditation showed decreases below 50% for example - then you would be right -it wouldnotbepossibletocompare - due to the large difference. However, using my example - the article presen;ty says-lowers cortisol levels -well this has been found an my studies -these are generalizations in the article. Now, if you can re-write top make it more precise and then prove that other studies found vastly different results in other meditation types we would be in agreement. perhaps you can re-right to make it more precise and then we can discuss. however, if it was for example, research found TM reduced plasma cortisol levels - on average -by 5% and and other studies found 6% percent then we could worth it as - these are similar findings as in othermeditaive meditave. To not associate them the difference would need to be clearly defined by the research as large. This is not possible everything however, for example no mediative research claims to reduce a persons age by 12 years (would love to see this research by the way) so that would;dbe specific to TM. Hope that makes sense -must dash. Really2012back ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
TG I am really struggling why you can't grasp this. "Why would one need to prove that studies on other meditation techniques found something different?" Not asking you to. I am saying that tm results are very similiar - in most instances - to the results of other meditiaion practicees - or at least as the article is presently written. "disallowing original research says, in a nutshell, you're not supposed to put in any information that hasn't been published in a reliable source." I think I sent you to both pubmed and the article you dislike so much that proves - without orginal, research that TM is not unique in the effects it has - as you have just said "it doesn't claim to be unique. Why then - unless this was a huge advert for TM - is it so difficult to say, "as with other forms of mediation it has been found that TM can....." This is fact, this is correct but may not be something that the general reader would be aware of.
What is the rational for the existence of an Encyclopedias? From the very first one written in the Enlightenment Europe? It was to educate and inform the reader about subjects. Why is this so "wrong"? I am struggling with your argument and use of the policy on disallowing original research. Saying that TM has the same sort of effects as other forms of meditation is not drawing conclusions - it is obviously fact. Drawing conclusions would be:
Example 1 Tai Chi is mediation. TM is mediation. Tai chi can/is meditations conducted while moving thus TM can be conducted while moving.
Example 2 TM is a form of meditation that been shown to decrease biological age by 12 years. Tai Chi is meditation thus Tai chi can reduce biological age by 12 years.
Come TG use that fine brain of yours my friend. This isn't difficult stuff - even in the humanities :-) Really2012back ( talk) 21:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG - sorry for my absence - hope all is well my friend. This report states so http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf. Really2012back ( talk) 18:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Edit: Does Meditation Enhance Cognition and Brain Longevity? Doraiswamy PM, Xiong GL. One year pre-post intervention follow-up of psychological, immune, endocrine and blood pressure outcomes of mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) in breast and prostate cancer outpatients. Brain Behav Immun. 2007 Nov;21(8):1038-49. Epub 2007 May 22. Robert McComb JJ, Tacon A, Randolph P, Caldera Y. Abstract A pilot study to examine the effects of a mindfulness-based stress-reduction and relaxation program on levels of stress hormones, physical functioning, and submaximal exercise responses. J Altern Complement Med. 2004 Oct;10(5):819-27 Really2012back ( talk) 18:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: J Altern Complement Med. 2006 Oct;12(8):817-32. Systematic review of the efficacy of meditation techniques as treatments for medical illness. Arias AJ, Steinberg K, Banga A, Trestman RL. Department of Psychiatry, University of Connecticut Medical School, Farmington, CT, USA. arias@psychiatry.uchc.edu
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm
TG Apologies, I understand what has been happening now and my fault. I was trying to follow WIKI guidelines completely - and perhaps thinking to much like a scientist. While you have been thinking specifically like a pro TMer and no insult meant at all, only that you are thinking in to great a specific. To any of us "in the field" it has been long considered that there may be some link between psychosocial stress, physioimmuniology and stress coping mechanisms. Of the latter, Meditation has been long considered. Now, it must be understood at that here, the "type" of meditation is not important, only that it "works". If you read a paragraph from the article/page from NCCMA I pointed you to (fully wiki compliant).
"Meditation and Imaging
"Meditation, one of the most common mind-body interventions, is a conscious mental process that induces a set of integrated physiological changes termed the relaxation response. Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) has been used to identify and characterize the brain regions that are active during meditation. This research suggests that various parts of the brain known to be involved in attention and in the control of the autonomic nervous system are activated, providing a neurochemical and anatomical basis for the effects of meditation on various physiological activities.13 Recent studies involving imaging are advancing the understanding of mind-body mechanisms. For example, meditation has been shown in one study to produce significant increases in left-sided anterior brain activity, which is associated with positive emotional states. Moreover, in this same study, meditation was associated with increases in antibody titers to influenza vaccine, suggesting potential linkages among meditation, positive emotional states, localized brain responses, and improved immune function."
You will notice no mention of TM here - it is meditation in general. In the general literature of undergraduate/graduate doctors for example - the general medical psychology textbooks will mention meditation and then perhaps list some and their physiological/psychological effects. Each of the studies I have given you will use the term meditation has been found to/thought to/argued that - etc. All of the studies -but let us keep it simple by using the page i have just quoted for the "layman/woman" - refer to mediation, has been cited to....." So, within these terms and any of the references given - one must begin an article on TM which cites its physiological effects by saying something like. "T|M, like many other forms of meditation has been found to....." The only way to avoid this - within WIKI rules which you are so familiar with - would be if TM is actually not a form of meditation but something else. A religion for example, or practical magic, paranormal training, etc. Equally, any other Mediative practice quoted in WIKI would need to say the same thing. You could of course qualify this statement - as long as it was true and referenced: "however, TM has been found to be more effective then (list mediative practices)in the control of ...." But you have just stated the problem with this and that is finding studies that have looked at them in complete comparison. Edit: Perhaps to simplify this for the "laywomen/man" A read through this book - or if you do not have access to it then the extracts here http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/index.htm You will notice that it is meditiaon in general and it's physiological effects that are mentioned. While it is understood that diffeent forms of medititaion may have different physological responces - although in noway "proved" in the research - it is understoad that all - or virtually all - do have these effects. Really2012back ( talk) 01:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, my apologies for not making myself clear - I will begin a draft re-writwe for everyones consideration. Really2012back ( talk) 00:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
DRAFT : PHYSIOLOGY: Effects on the physiology As with a range of other meditative technigues(ref: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm#intervention) - such as Yoga Meditation, Tai Chi, MBSR, Buddhist Meditation - research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of Transcendental Meditation. Specifically in relation to TM the first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13] This research found that the Transcendental Meditation technique produced a physiological state that, early researchers termed "restful alertness." As with other forms of meditation, during the practice of TM the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, while EEG measurements show increased coherence and integration of brain functioning,[14] indicating that the physiology was alert rather than asleep.[15] Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood).[16]
I think from here it s obviouse how the rest should be structered. Personally, I am happy wity just the : http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm#intervention - easy for the new rreader to find, reliable, etc - however we can include more refernces if neccessary. Really2012back ( talk) 06:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Completely disagree TG - this is standard comparison. As i have said, if you wish to make it specific to TM then you need to be more Specific. I.E TM reduces plasma cortisol revels by exactly - x amount. This is not the case at the moment. Alas, I feel however that this is getting nowhere at the moment - and I am afraid that this is due to the fact that you work for the organization that we're discussing - fully understandable that you have such loyalties and I am not criticizing. However, this has simply gone on long enough - you ask for examples - wiki acceptable - that state that meditation has all of the similarities for meditation stated in the article. I have provided this. I have also, given note to research that MUM has conducted which has found that differences - this is clear in my draft. Yet you still protest. I have been extreamly patient with your obviouse COI yet I feel this has been ignored. Alas i think it is time to take to mediation regarding this one matter. Would you like to start my friend or shall I? Really2012back ( talk) 14:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
TG - Sorry, I am growing a tad bored of this. A have repeated on numerous occasions that the article begins with generalizations it says and I quote:
"Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique"
This is simply to general. All meditation has been shown to to have specific effects during practice. i have provided you with direct evidence of this and material which states exactly the same thing regarding other forms of mediation in general - which include TM.
It continues:
." During the practice of the technique the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, yet EEG measurements showed increased coherence and integration of brain functioning," This is exactly as described for many other forms of meditation. I have provided you with evidence of this and pointed you to wiki compliant sources to support this - as requested by yourself.
I wrote a revision of the paragraph here for you to comment on and suggest suggestions before it was added. You stated that there were response that had not been found/researched to occur in other forms of meditation - reduction in medical expenditure, reduction in biological age by 12 years, etc. I took this into account as you can see above. The need for clear understanding that TM is not unique in this finds needs to be stated for not only is it encyclopedic but follows wiki guidelines about articles about companies and products - i have provided you with this guidelines twice now but again: "Material published by a trading organization is a view of how that organization looks on itself however it will also have a marketing component and may lack neutrality" In addition WIKI says:
"Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used." The reasons for this should be obviously. In the case of TM the website claims that the "benefits" of TM meditation are unique and not to be found in other forms of meditation. It is obvious that this would be said as TM is a trademarked product sold at 2300 dollars in the USA and different amounts. We have noted that the federal organization which I have directed you to which says:
Over the past 20 years, mind-body medicinePractices that focus on the interactions among the brain, mind, body, and behavior, with the intent to use the mind to affect physical functioning and promote health. Examples include meditation and yoga. has provided considerable evidence that psychological factors can play a substantive role in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. There is evidence that mind-body interventions can be effective in the treatment of coronary artery disease, enhancing the effect of standard cardiac rehabilitation in reducing all-cause mortality and cardiac event recurrences for up to 2 years.5 Mind-body interventions have also been applied to various types of pain. Clinical trials indicate that these interventions may be a particularly effective adjunct in the management of arthritis, with reductions in pain maintained for up to 4 years and reductions in the number of physician visits.6 When applied to more general acute and chronic pain management, headache, and low-back pain, mind-body interventions show some evidence of effects, although results vary based on the patient population and type of intervention studied.7 Evidence from multiple studies with various types of cancer patients suggests that mind-body interventions can improve mood, quality of life, and coping, as well as ameliorate disease- and treatment-related symptoms, such as chemotherapy-induced nausea, vomiting, and pain.8 Some studies have suggested that mind-body interventions can alter various immune parameters, but it is unclear whether these alterations are of sufficient magnitude to have an impact on disease progression or prognosis.9,10
Over the past 20 years, mind-body medicinePractices that focus on the interactions among the brain, mind, body, and behavior, with the intent to use the mind to affect physical functioning and promote health. Examples include meditation and yoga. has provided considerable evidence that psychological factors can play a substantive role in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. There is evidence that mind-body interventions can be effective in the treatment of coronary artery disease, enhancing the effect of standard cardiac rehabilitation in reducing all-cause mortality and cardiac event recurrences for up to 2 years.5 Mind-body interventions have also been applied to various types of pain. Clinical trials indicate that these interventions may be a particularly effective adjunct in the management of arthritis, with reductions in pain maintained for up to 4 years and reductions in the number of physician visits.6 When applied to more general acute and chronic pain management, headache, and low-back pain, mind-body interventions show some evidence of effects, although results vary based on the patient population and type of intervention studied.7 Evidence from multiple studies with various types of cancer patients suggests that mind-body interventions can improve mood, quality of life, and coping, as well as ameliorate disease- and treatment-related symptoms, such as chemotherapy-induced nausea, vomiting, and pain.8 Some studies have suggested that mind-body interventions can alter various immune parameters, but it is unclear whether these alterations are of sufficient magnitude to have an impact on disease progression or prognosis.9,10
I have also directed you to published studies, textbooks, etc which state the same. The most of the effects cited under physiology - have been found in many other forms of mediation. This is fact. Those effects unique to TM, the ability to fly, walk through walls, reduction in biological age by 12 years - have not been found elsewhere and I have, in the draft, commented on this.
I think I have been more then "fair" and have followed wiki guidelines beyond the norm. If you are not prepared to make suggestions to the text then i will insert as is - having "cleaned it up a bit". I await your constructive response, or indeed anyone elses impute. Really2012back ( talk) 11:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
TG, as you know, I said that I was going to stay out of this but your comment: "What's the relationship of TM to the TM-Sidhi program?" Is clearly ridiculous my friend and is as disappointing to me as you and Olive removing the fact that you are TMers/work from MUM in your pages - sorry.
I quote from your own web page - TM that is: What is the TM-Sidhi Program? The TM-Sidhi program is an advanced program of Maharishi Vedic Science and TechnologySM, the complete science and technology of Natural Law. The TM-Sidhi program is a natural extension of the Transcendental Meditation® program and may be learned after two months of regular practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. Practice of the TM-Sidhi program accelerates the progress of the individual towards realizing his full potential -- the state of enlightenment.
If the TM organisation is ashamed of it perhaps dropping it from the website and making it part of your occult knowledge for adepts might be best. Till then it needs to be mentioned. I am with nat for its inclusion. I think that there should be no more long discussions if it should, but now work should begin on how.
Sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 06:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Range of studies
Studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of high blood pressure,[17] younger biological age,[18] decreased insomnia,[19] reduction of high cholesterol,[20] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[21] decreased outpatient visits,[22] decreased cigarette smoking,[23] decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25].
Same as above, same finding 1000s of studies in other mediative practices - how can this be included? Really2012back ( talk) 03:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG - again, good point, please see my respnce above. Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
RE_WRITE
AS with other mediative techniques of differing disciplines (ref)- Tai Chi, MBSR, Yoga, etc - studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of "high" blood pressure,[17] ,[18] decreased insomnia, decreased cigarette smoking,[23], a reduction of "high" cholesterol[20], decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25]. Unique to TM, studies have been conducted which claim that TM practitioners show: younger biological age, reduced medical expenditures,[21] and decreased outpatient visits,[22) Also, unique to TM, advanced practice - recommended after 2 months "basic" TM practice, claims to bulid on these health improvements while generating the unusal physiological abilties. These include giving the practitioner the ability to fly - yogic flying - walk-through walls, and other paranormal abilities. Really2012back ( talk) 07:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk) 07:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
If you notice TG,I said these were reported exclusivly to tm Really2012back ( talk) 14:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, I have looked at this closely, and I i think I know why you don't want this distinction made - I have noted on the TM website that the effects of mediation are stated as being exclusive to TM. And my friend I do genuinely understand your loyalty to a spirtual pratcice that is such an important part of your life and I genuinely don't wish to cause offense. Your suggestion is good but simply does not go far enough in my opinion. I have explained the rational various times and provide the support for it in reliable source as you have requested - yet we still seem to not be able to come to agreement. You will also notice that i have not tried to reduce the impact of TM mediation in anyway and made it clear that there have been additional effects noted for TM that have not been researched in other mediative practices - I have attempted to make this distinction clear. Why not look at the way I have drafted this and come up with a draft that you feel would be more appropriate? If we can work collaboratively together I believe we can construct something accurate in the confines of an encyclopedic entry. Peace my friend. Really2012back ( talk) 23:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
TG: A good suggestion - and not an unreasonable one at all my friend, but I have my hands full with just this article and 2 others -I try not to concentrate on to many at the same time.
No, I think I have answered these questions on the previous thread. The suggestions I have made are simple, straight forword and easy to implement.We shall continue with them. The only thing now is to decide is it to be in the form I have suggested or if someone else can come up with a better way of wording it. Have we included to much information on the TM-Sidhi Program for example. Or not enough in this context? Do we need to name the other mediative techniques or just say others and include the reference suggested? If there are any in there that charge money to teach them I would not like to encourage it personally. I have the strange belief that any easy way to improve peoples health and bring world peace - especially from a spiritual perspective -should be free, but it seems that nothing comes cheap these days. Really2012back ( talk) 14:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
In 2003 a study in the journal, Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift, reviewed ten randomized, controlled trials that looked at the effect of the Transcendental Meditation technique on cognitive function. Four trials showed a significant effect on cognitive function, while the remaining trials showed mixed results. Study authors, Canter and Ernst, noted that the four positive trials used subjects who had already intended to learn the Transcendental Meditation technique, and attributed the significant positive results to an expectation effect.[39] Orme-Johnson, co-author of one of these trials, has critiqued this study, noting errors and omissions.[40]
Simply not acceptable to quote from a critiqued articles website to counter a peer reviewed examination. It is normal practice for a research author to publish a reply to any such criticism in the journal cited. This does not seem to have happened in this case. Sorry simply not acceptable. and needs to be removed Really2012back ( talk) 03:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG. I hate to say it, but I think it might be right at a stretch to be honest - but perhaps you are right. Let us get the other issues out of the way first. Really2012back ( talk) 14:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Added working copy for group editing purposes.( olive ( talk) 16:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC))
Orme-Johnson paragraph - working
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (which was founded by the inventor of TM, and at which all students and faculty practice TM every day), believer in the paranormal Maharishi Effect, and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research showing greater autonomy, innovative thought, and increases in creativity, general intelligence and moral reasoning in TM practitioners. According to Orme–Johnson cult followers operate on blind faith and adherence to arbitrary rules and authority, and these studies indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments.
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (which was founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique and the paranormal Maharishi Effect,
cites . . . TimidGuy ( talk) 17:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Argg! If some one can just tell me why it is important to mention .."paranormal Maharishi effect" I will be happy - that I have argued it's is paronormal is neither here nor there. Why do we need to mention it in the this context? :-) Really2012back ( talk) 18:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Really2012back ( talk) 21:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)sounds good to me but does need to mention OJ is a strong propent of TM
I suppose we need raccare to respond really, i would suspect that he has reasons for the paronormal tag - they are simply ones that I don#t "get ate the moment. However, if it continues the way it is going it will return to the way it was - it is very important that OJ's association, practice and support for TM is understood. A non interested , unbiased researcher would not have created the website that he has. This needs to be clarified. No matter wither he has previously been published hehas been an d continues to be - a close supporting member of the TM movement, This has to be clarified. But let us continue. Really2012back ( talk) 19:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive Race: I now I think I understand the point of the Paranormal tag. As such OJ is being used here as little more then a "character witness". It is not his or anyone Else's research on TM being a cult but his assumptions - based on research that mainly he has carried out that on TM - form which he is making assumptions. for this reason Race sees it as important to understand all of his interests and research in TM, including the ME, to allow the reader to make a judgment on his abilities to comment. I see the logic now i think. However, i need to rush out - I have one of those horrible "local flights" to catch - I will comment further when i return if this has not been settled. peace Really2012back ( talk) 08:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
O I forgot, as its starting to look a little neglected can we also begin discussion on how we can include the other mediative practices and the effects found in TM - see physiology studies, etc above. Really2012back ( talk) 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand but never-the-less he is making an unpublished judgment based on his interpretation of research conducted, which achieved positive - for TM - results while extrapolating this against an argument that TM is a cult - he has never conducted such research to counter the argument made. He is certainly, pro TM with close ties to the movement. Thus, his opinions on his website - for they are no more then this - must be seen from this perspective,indeed, OJ says himself on his website:
"This website ... is strictly an expression of my own understanding and personal experiences, stated as candidly and as clearly as I can."
It is also, clear that from his site he "believes" in TM mediated effects for which there is no established agreement in the scientific community that they even exist - never-the less proved they exist - which he states as absolutes> I quote:
"There have been 51 studies showing that the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program (which includes Yogic Flying) improves the quality of life in the larger society; the findings of which have been published in leading peer-reviewed scientific journals and presented and published in the proceedings of professional conferences."
Yogic flying? It is difficult to argue against allowing a new reader the opportunity of assessing a counter arguments conditionals based on this knowledge.
Races argument, and indeed mine, is that the reader must understand his interests and those ideas within the TM movement that he supports. Realistically, he should not be used at all - but as the TM movement are struggling to find any further supporting evidence I, personally and with reservations am reluctantly agreeing to it all. Perhaps on that basis,and using LO/TGs well structured sentence re-right we could say: On his personal website, David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at the TM affiliated and owned Maharishi University of Management (founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) author author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique and proponent of the paranormal Maharishi Effect - including Yogic flying, argues..." Really2012back ( talk) 18:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
TG, no you are quite right , in the interests of fairness and balance I think it is indeed necessary to mention all of those things - if they are relevant and referenced - about the critiques too. Very fair. I shall await on their addition or begin work on them myself. Really2012back ( talk) 23:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Goodness, I missed this one - according to the official website daily TM - not sidhu program - reverse your biological age by 12 years! http://www.tm.org/discover/research/reversal_aging.html Goodness, we must get this into the wiki enetry as soon as possible - under physiological effects of course. Now how best to do it? Really2012back ( talk) 20:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if im adding to much here but according to the TM website again: Maharishi predicted in 1960 that if just one percent of the world’s population practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique, there would be an end to war. In 1974, scientists noted a growing number of cities where one percent of the population had learned the Transcendental Meditaition technique. They looked at crime statistics in these “one percent” cities, they found that when a city reached the one percent level there was a decrease in the crime rate. At the same time, matched control cities maintained an increase in crime rate—as did the United States as a whole. They named this phenomenon the Maharishi Effect.
I know the ME has a seperate section but I didn't realise that Maharisi said this would ha[ppen from tm and not the tm Sidhu program. Really need to include some of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012back ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Really, the examples you have given are very clear examples of synthesis of material, and therefore Original Research according to Wikipedia policy. Material included in the article must have a direct reference relating to that inclusion. For example: Tai Chi is shown by ... such and such a study... to have the same effects as Transcendental Meditation.( olive ( talk) 22:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC))
Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources.
Um...Im in agreement with you Olive the examples I gave are synthesis - or to be exact they are assuming a from B. This would be against wiki policy but what i am suggesting isn't deriving A from B as the examples i give do, they are simply repeating research, peer reviewed facts. They say, for example, "Orm Johnson, Some One Else Working At MUM, Someone Else Working At MUM, and Research Paid By MUM (2001) found that after daily TM meditation plasma cortisol levels were reduced compared to those prior to mediation. Similarly: "Non TMr, Non working for MUM and Research Not Funded By MUM (2001) found that after daily yoga meditation practice plasma cortisone levels were lower then before meditation."
If TM is mediation, and Yoga Meditation is meditation - which TM admits - the only real difference you cite (apart from bringing world peace, making people younger, flying, walking through walks, etc) is that TM needs no effort. So, if TM is meditation - and not something else, and other forms of meditation are meditation and not something else, then the statement: "TM reduces plasma Cortisol levels just as other forms of mediation such as ...." must make sense. It isn't extrapolating or deriving, it is fact. Now I now your knot a scientist Olive but surely you must access your students on critical reasoning in your classes? Or are things different in education in the USA? If they are, my apologies for, in this case, assuming.
Another example that would be wrong would be this:
Orm Johnson, TM researcher and writer of over 100 - peer reviewed papers on TM has stated that advanced TM meditaion - the Sidhu Program - will allow you to fly (Orm Johnson: 2007) Thus, as TM is meditation and so is Tai Chi - conducting Tai Chi meditaion will allow you to fly. This is obviously wrong Really2012back ( talk) 23:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk) 23:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "
'Edit, sorry Olive, my apologies, I see what you mean I think. You must have missed part of my conversation with TG - the danger of starting a new section connected to another. I have cited the references finding the same results already to TG above - and of course these would need to be included in the final draft. Apologies - its late here :-) Really2012back ( talk) 23:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)'Bold text
Hi all, I am aware that most people are very upto date here regarding wiki rules POV, COI, etc. Because of this have taken to reading them with interest and while doing so, and looking at the research done on the physiological effects of TM, have grown concerned how these should might be in conflict of wiki rules.
For example if we use the prominent research - quoted in the article a number of times: Am J Hypertens (2005) 18, 88–98; doi: 10.1016/j.amjhyper.2004.08.027 A randomized controlled trial of stress reduction in African Americans treated for hypertension for over one year*
Of it's authors Robert H. Schneider1, Charles N. Alexander1,2,3,4,5,6, Frank Staggers2,3, David W. Orme-Johnson1, Maxwell Rainforth1, John W. Salerno1, William Sheppard3, Amparo Castillo-Richmond4, Vernon A. Barnes5 and Sanford I. Nidich1 At the time of writing only 2 of its 10 authors were not working for MUM - of these one is closely associated with TM and the other completed his PHD thesis at the university. All of the others are/were at that time members of the MUM faculty - from Physiology to Education.
AS TM is a registered trademark (registered to: licensed to Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation) and thus in WIKI - and indeed legal terms - a cooperate entity or at least part of a corporate entity. Can the article use research by the companies staff to support its effectiveness? It is certain that we will need to mention this every time it occurs in the article - that the "research was conducted by TM employees - but can we reasonably use it at all under wiki reliable sources/COI. I shall check the rest of the research this week -. Thoughts? NB It is interesting to note that the various authors but for one - at the time did not mention their association to MUM. can anyone confirm if they were members of the faculty at the time or did this occur after this very positive research? It maybe worth chasing up with Am J Hypertens so that this is included/understood. Having been involved in the peer review process I personally unstood - at least in Europe that such declarations should be made - I am assuming an oversight. Really2012back ( talk) 02:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: Apologies it seems that TM, MUM, etc, etc are actually all trademarks and belong to Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. It would thus be this legal entity and its associations that we should be concerned with under WIKI guidelines. Sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 02:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Alas Olive you are incorrect - which is unusual you are normally so well aware of wiki guidlines. MUM is part of Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation and indeed a Trademark of this corporation - this is stated on the MUM website and I have qouted it below. they are thus both part of the same legal intity - an incorperated intity indeed. WIKI says this by the way.
"Material published by a trading organisation is a view of how that organisation looks on itself however it will also have a marketing component and may lack neutrality. If this material is used it should carry a caveat to indicate this risk and should be corroborated with independent reporting if possible. The accounts and notes to the accounts for all publicly listed companies are required to have been independently audited and will contain a statement to that effect, possibly with caveats considered significant by the auditors. Smaller companies and partnerships which are not publicly listed may have audited accounts. These accounts should provide a reliable view as to the financial health of the organisation however this is subject to the accounting principles applied, which should be identified in the notes. Due to the specialised skills required to assess financial health this material should not be used in isolation, a more acceptable judgement of the organisation can be obtained from investment analysis conducted in some segments of the business press, stock markets and significant investment vehicles. It should be noted that in some cases these assessments may be confidential. Any judgements in Wikipedia with regard to trading organisations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used.
Cite peer-reviewed scientific publications and check community consensus Scientific journals are the best place to find primary source articles about experiments, including medical studies. Any serious scientific journal is peer-reviewed. Many articles are excluded from peer-reviewed journals because they report what is in the opinion of the editors unimportant or questionable research. In particular be careful of material in a journal that is not peer-reviewed, or one that reports material in a field different from its usual focus. (See the Marty Rimm and Sokal affairs.)
The fact that a statement is published in a refereed journal does not make it true. Even a well-designed experiment or study can produce flawed results or fall victim to deliberate fraud. (See the Retracted article on neurotoxicity of ecstasy and the Schön affair.)
Honesty and the policies of neutrality and No original research demand that we present the prevailing "scientific consensus". Polling a group of experts in the field wouldn't be practical for many editors but often there is an easier way. The scientific consensus can be found in recent, authoritative review articles or textbooks and some forms of monographs.
There is sometimes no single prevailing view because the available evidence does not yet point to a single answer. Because Wikipedia not only aims to be accurate, but also useful, it tries to explain the theories and empirical justification for each school of thought, with reference to published sources. Editors must not, however, create arguments themselves in favor of, or against, any particular theory or position. See Wikipedia:No original research, which is policy. Significant-minority views are welcome in Wikipedia, but must be identified as minority views and not given the same depth of coverage as the majority view. The views of tiny minorities need not be reported. (See Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View.)
Make readers aware of any uncertainty or controversy. A well-referenced article will point to specific journal articles or specific theories proposed by specific researchers. Really2012back ( talk) 03:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that is simply not good enough Olive, we would need independent confirmation of this - a publicly available financial report might do. Never-the-less there is a clear legal relationship. Your university system is much different to much of Europe. It is still possible for a University to be accredited and still part of a corporate entity. It is unlikey that this is not the case here - why on earth would a public company license a trading name - which is used with reserve to something that it did not have connections with.
"Any serious scientific journal is peer-reviewed.", and those are the peer reviewed studies and journals that can be included in this article." Indeed, but as I highlighted The fact that a statement is published in a refereed journal does not make it true." and "Cite peer-reviewed scientific publications and check community consensus"
However, we might be able to use it but must follow wiki guidelines already mentioned plus these: " "Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used."
So, we will no doubt have to return to my original suggestion and note the authors connection with the corporate trademark in question TM. I know, it's a pain each time but we must, as you always point out - keep strictly to wiki rules. Really2012back ( talk) 03:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you TG - so for confirmation, you will be able to point us to the publicly available accounts to confirm this? As you always say, original research is discounted in WIKi - this would of course be necessary to prove. Equally, the fact that they are all registered tradmarks - even if that is for protective resons does indeed show a connection? Or can you provide examples elsewhere in wiki were this has happened? Really2012back ( talk) 14:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Olive. It is interesting that you cite that wiki says varifiability rather then "truth" and I agree - however, WIKI is very exact regarding, claims made by and research about, companies. It states:
Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used.
Given that a lot of the research cited in this article was conducted by staff of MUM then, under these guidelines, while it would be ok to quote it, we would need to add a caveat regarding the association of the researchers to MUM. Something which was not made clear for example on the articles submission - in the case of the example I have given. I am not saying that staff at MUM are wrong to conduct this research - given the associations I would expect it, and lets be honest, researchers try to do research in things in which they are interested, so this is not unique. However, because this is a commercial product it is important, within the context of this entry, to make this association clear. What is problomatic for me is how to comment on this without prejudicing that research either way in the minds of the reader. Really2012back ( talk) 11:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Must be Olives influence, but you know I was thinking this opening sentence is a tad "unwieldy" and indeed incorrect.
Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of a meditation technique introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
Surely it would be better to say: Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation, a multinational, multi-million dollar company chaired by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
Apologies Olive you are correct and again my mistake: It should be Trademark of Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. All rights reserved. See, you are a good influence on me :-) I qoute from the TM website:
® Transcendental Meditation, TM, TM-Sidhi, Maharishi Ayur-Veda, Maharishi Ayurveda, Science of Creative Intelligence, Maharishi, Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, Maharishi Global Construction, Maharishi Yoga, Maharishi Yagya, Maharishi Vedic Astrology, Maharishi Jyotish, Maharishi Gandharva Veda, Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health, Maharishi Vedic Vibration Technology, Maharishi Instant Relief, Instant Relief, Maharishi Rejuvenation, Maharishi Rasayana Program, Maharishi Vedic Management, Maharishi Corporate Development Program, Consciousness-Based, Maharishi Vedic University, Maharishi Vedic School, Maharishi Vedic Center, Maharishi Ayur-Veda School, Maharishi Ayur-Veda University, Maharishi Ayur-Veda College, Maharishi Ayur-Veda Foundation, Maharishi Ayur-Veda Medical Center, Maharishi University of Management, Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment, Maharishi Medical Center, Maharishi Vedic Medical Center, Maharishi Medical College, Maharishi Vedic, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, Maharishi Vedic Psychology, Maharishi Self-Pulse, Maharishi Heaven on Earth, Maharishi Center for Excellence in Management, Maharishi Vedic Management, Maharishi Master Management, Natural Law Based Management, Maharishi Corporate Revitalization Program, Maharishi Global Administration through Natural Law, Maharishi Vedic Development Fund, Thousand-Headed Purusha, Maharishi Thousand-Headed Purusha, Maharishi Purusha, Purusha, Thousand-Headed Mother Divine, Mother Divine, Ideal Girls' School, 24 Hour Bliss, Spiritual University of America, Breath of Serenity, Maharishi Amrit Kalash, Maharishi College of Vedic Medicine, Vedic Science, Maharishi Vedic Science, Maharishi Vedic Observatory, Vastu Vidya, Maharishi Vastu, Time Zone Capital, Council of Supreme Intelligence, Prevention Wing of the Military, are registered or common law trademarks licensed to Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation and used under sublicense.
Clearly as a registered trademark we must make sure that it is understood firstly, that it is a registered TM and secondly - and correctly - who to. We don't want the wrath of TMs legal department down us :-) My apologies. NB Query, I have to ask - curiosity and all that - the registered trademark "24 Hour Bliss" what "product" is that? Sounds intriguing?
TG said in the section regarding Physiology.
"TM-Sidhi program, which by the way doesn't offer the ability to fly"
I'm afraid TG this confirms my fear that you may not be the best person to comment on this article or indeed edit it.
From the TM website: One aspect of the TM-Sidhi program is called Yogic Flying. During the first stage of Yogic Flying, the body lifts up and moves forward in short hops. http://www.tm.org/sidhi/index.html
This of course leaves the question, what happens in stage two and three. Luckily, MUM was able to answer this, along with some of your leading academic staff including John Haglin, physicist, MUM academic staff member and former candidate for presidency of the USA. This he did on this video where he states, along with other members of the MUM academic team, that TM practitioners will/have reached stage 3 of yogic flying which will/has allowed them to fly 60, 000 feet in the air. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHwhGUo90jw The references are fully WIKI compliant. Really2012back ( talk) 13:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
lol, TG, you know I promise I will leave you inpeace soon. Infact the rest of the day is yours. I shall sit here and listen Haitink's Beethoven cycle, then mediate - honest! :-) Peace my friend Addition, perhaps you are right in your sugestion regarding other meditation. If you can come up with a way of doing it with-out me having to do any other work per your suggestion? Really2012back ( talk) 16:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)-
Hi TG, as you know I wasn't going to comment further on the article but as a final note, that suggestion sound very reasonable - not sure about including the research ref TM V Simple relaxation - as simple relaxation is not a mediative technique and might muddy the waters a bit. However, perfectly good when speaking only about TM. However, will leave it in your capable hands: Peace. 20:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk)
I may come to regret jumping in here but...
Having spent the last 2-3 days reading through ALL of the archived Talk pages (and yes, I'm exhausted :-), I couldn't let Olive's statement "...The article is about the TM technique, a trademarked name for a meditation technique, and thats all... " stand without a comment.
In the early days of this Talk, there was a repetition, over and over, by Sethie, that this article is NOT simply about the technique of TM but in fact was about the entire movement. This was, IIRC, agreed upon at the time. When did this change? Clearly, a quick scan of the current introduction indicates that the change happened, perhaps as a result of the gradual dropping-out of those "opposed" to the TM movement.
Please point me to the Talk page where this shift in focus was agreed upon in a consensus. I am concerned that this may have been a (possibly subconscious) attempt to eliminate the opposing viewpoint, through a "shift in venue" that limited the article to the technique, which is much less open to criticism.
Please prove me wrong...
ACushen ( talk) 20:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I do recall that a split was suggested by a commenter as a result of an RfC. I don't recall that this specific issue was recommended and "consensussed" (not that it's a word, but... :-) to be split. My apologies. I will go back and review the Talk pages in question. Thanks. ACushen ( talk) 03:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Over at Template talk:COI2, User:Dreadstar has raised the question of how long a COI2 tag should remain in place. Though I'm not aware of a rule, I'd like to ask the editors on this page on the state of their progress toward removing the problem that this tag was intended to signal. Since User:Michaelbusch is the one who placed the tag back in November, perhaps he can state whether his rewriting effort is still making progress. I don't see that others are obstructing his work, it just seems like it's taking a while. Since it's his tag, he should take responsibility that progress is being made, IMHO. He could also state how much change would be needed before it can be removed. EdJohnston ( talk) 03:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Given the fact that the main editors of this article work for various parts of the TM organization - Olive Timid - it seems remarkable fair in its assessment of TM and counter arguments to it - and congratulations need to go to both in their fairness. (Although I would argue that TM "Yogic Flying" should be included or at least linked to, as the claims made about this by the organizations founder might through light on other claims made. Equally, I think some mention should be made that former teachers claim that the mantras given are the names of Hindu deities - this I think would have an impact on the use of people with certain religious beliefs)
However, while understanding the problematic nature - and indeed valuelessness of the term CULT. I have some reservations about the counter argument:
"David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research showing greater autonomy, independence, and innovative thought in TM practitioners, as well as increases in creativity, general intelligence and moral reasoning. Cult followers, according to Orme–Johnson allegedly operate on blind faith, and adherence, usually rigid, to arbitrary rules and authority, whereas Orme-Johnson notes that these studies indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments." Firstly, because this simply links to his website and the fact that none of the 100 studies mentioned that "indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments" are either referenced or pointed to. Given his close association with TM would not instead be possible to simply point to these studies? I think this would greatly enhance the work dome so far. Really2012 ( talk) 07:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the neutrality tag at the top of the article can be removed if a neutral reader such as Really2012 feels the article is fairly written. Roseapple ( talk) 02:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
So Olive fixed the objectionable language Rracecarr pointed out in the cult paragraph. Perhaps Rracecarr can improve the other section. Roseapple ( talk) 14:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, please don't use my comments to suggest the neutrality tag should be removed - I'm afraid that this is not what I am suggesting. What i have said is that given the close - and paid full time - involvement with TM that the main editors of the article is remarkable unbiased - this does not mean that it is unbiased in a "normal" sense however. There is still very clever editing taking place to remove "controversial " areas of TM from the article. I am afraid the inclusion of Orme Johnson as evidence to counter the Cult argument is weak at best. The other points that I made in comments are of equal - and high relevance. Personally, I believe that if TM is to be considered non theological then and to be practiced by people of different faiths then mention needs to be made about the origins of the mantras used. Anyone with a basic understanding of esoteric Hindu thought will understand the importance of continued mantric repeating of a deities name. Equally, the claims made by the organization regarding yogic flying need to be included in my opinion. The Sidhu program is the natural extension of the mediation program mentioned here. Its claims are "controversial" to say the least and have to - in my opinion - throow doubt on other claims made by TM.
I believe presently that these are not included basically due to the nearly full time participation of the main TM associate editors - one would suspect that this would be easy to maintain when the said organization has it's own university and staff. Personally, I have no issues with TM and the "fairness of the article in some respects - as I said - should be applauded - however there does not excuse some of the more important omissions which, I think, are more important then inclusion of references to the cult ( both value ladden term in my opinon) issues for example. It is impossible to remove this tag in my opionion when the nearly "full time " editors are members of the argainsation whos wiki entry is under dispute - unless, perhaps, the issues I have mentioned are addressed. However, having read - quicly throw the discussion history I believe this will not be the case. Sorry
If these issues where examined I would be happy to suuport such a move. Really2012 ( talk) 23:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive/Timid - I have read, briefly, through the history of this article, so assume you are the same people each time and not a dedicated team at the TM University :-). Your comments, I am afraid, are the same as I have seen before and I am afraid do your selfs a dis-service. There are reliable sources as to the mantras used and indeed as to how these mantras are assigned. The lists are available from many places on the net - and indeed have been removed by yourselves on many occasions. You state that they do not come from reliable sources yet have been published by TM trained "trainers" It is difficult to see how one can get more reliable sources then this. All of these people have placed their biography's to be clearly seen. If you use the argument that they are former TM members and appear to be unhappy with the organization then you must remove the Orm Johnson links on the same basis, as a "former" member of your university staff and thus equally unreliable.
Your arguments about the Mantras being meaningless are equally not justified. For a devout Christan for example, to be reciting the name of a Hindu god unknowingly has many theological implications. Equally, to state that it is not important what the mantras mean either shows a lack of understanding of "esoteric" Hindu/Vedic thought and teaching or a willingness to hid this fact.
As to the yogic flying - well one has to ask what the issue is here? It is part of TM teaching, it is most certainly an advanced part of TM training. If one is happy to state the benefits of basic TM training Way be ashamed of it's advanced practices? Equally, I see that there is no mention of TMs "peace through meditation program" (or whatever it's called) A process whereby TM has stated that by combined mediation of its practitioners it can decrees crime rates in a certain geographical area. Indeed, TM has used "peer reviewed" research to prove it's effectiveness - via your version of unified field theory no doubt. Again, there is no mention of this and it seems that previous discussions about including have been ignored. Again, why is the faculty staff of the organizations university so reticent about its inclusion?
I am now aware that this will descend in to a long argument which will not be won by those of us without the full time resources - or the interest - of others. Instead this will "drag-on" until the none TMer gets bored and the comments are then hidden within chat history.
Sorry, but this does neither the organization, its academic staff or it's leader any "favors" and is why I cannot be used to remove the NPOV type tag. Sorry. Really2012 ( talk) 02:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Josha: I like your suggestions alot. . The only thing that I would take exception to is the Christan/Hindu god thing. Alas, it would be relevant. In Christan - and indeed Christian-Judaic tradition it would be important. There is much talk in Christian literature - indeed including it's main "references" text, the bible - regarding the worship of "false gods" And Christianity would indeed recognize their existence although in fundamental Christianity at least they would be considered at the lest "demons" (no offense to more reasoned Christians and certainly no offense to any Hindi readers). Indeed, many of the present Christian Demons - and indeed saints - had their origins in "pagan" gods - although this would be strongly denied (see St Bridgett in Eire for example). This is a very fundamental point in Christan thought, indeed, as it would be in certain substantial parts of Judaic and Muslim thought also.
As to no evidence that Hindu deities names are used in the mantras - well, the net is filled with former TM trainers - who have proved this in their bios - who have published these lists - lists that5 have been removed from this article. Anyone with even the most basic understanding of the "esoteric" sciences can see them clearly.
Finally: "A missing paragraph (Maharishi Effect) can never be a reason for a NPOV remark." I would agree but this is not the only reason for this marker. The clever editing of the article to remove many "controversial" issues is important. The manner in which many reasoned suggestions for change are "buried" and the fact that as it stands the article is written and manged by facility staff of the Maharishi University are all very problematic issues.
I repeat, alot of this article is very "fair" and reasoned and all credit to "Olive" and "Timid" but the fact that TM emphasizes research into its techniques which are "successful" but seems to want to distance itself from equally important things such as the Maharishi Effect, yogi flying and mantras does the editors and organization a disservice. Just because these issues might be controversial to those that can't see beyond the end of a test-tube - or some orthodox religion - does not mean that you should be ashamed of them. Grasp "all" of your organizations philosophies and be proud of them and support them. You might want to try and support every piece of your ideology/phiolosophy.theology via "scientific" "peer-reviewed" sources but TM is ultimately a philosophy and it is not always possible to use imperial research to support your arguments./ Go this route and you enter a place where, like other extremists - you are trying - also using peer reviewed papers, "named" scientists" - to prove the world was "created" in 7 days, every species on the planet can fit on one boat,. etc, etc, etc.
To misqoute Lao Tzu, "The thing that can be named, is not the thing itself."
Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 18:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
O, and to genuinely try to prove that I am "neutral" I would fully support the removal of the Cult" issues sections. Based-on the evidence given there there are other branches of "spiritual" thought that should have a similar section - including branches of fundamentalist Christianity and fundamental Muslim thought. This notion of a "cult" is just so value laden I have no idea why Olive and Timid have taken the time to counter it. Isn't there some "wiki" guidelines regarding the dangers of using this term? Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 18:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Really thanks for your comments. I think you are asking some important questions and maybe along with Josha's comments I can provide some rationales for the information in this article.
First what you see today is the result of numerous hours of discussion with editors who had numerous views on the article and on TM . What you see is a result of consensus . Thats the Wikipedia way , and I support the neutrality of that completely.I have no desire to slant this article in anyway that is not neutral from any side of the coin .... I guess coins only have two side... but you get my meaning.
Really, I hope this helps explain the way in which this article in its present incarnation came into being.From my side only if we are completely neutral can this encyclopedia continue to exist. Thanks so much for your comments . It actually helps me summarize in my own mind what was done in the last year and why .( olive ( talk) 19:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC))
You know "Olive" a sociologist with an interest in the sociology of religion would find the discussion page of this article far more illuminating then the article itself. :-) We most continue. Bear with me will I find the time. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 20:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid: you said "WTA. There's also a policy that restricts use of self-published sources, which includes personal web sites" That excludes Orm Johnson then - especially given his links with TM and your university. It makes no difference that he is an expert in Psychology. Shall I remove him or you? Or should we ask the wiki skeptics group? Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 23:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you get the wrong idea Timidguy. Let me explain - I should really make my position clear - I am a "TMer" - practice everyday, without fail - although in fairness over the years have learned a number of other techniques non of which I feel are incompatible and non of which are less important then others. Indeed, often use various techniques during commenting in WIKI - I find it useful. My issues with certain people within the "movement" are clear within this article. In a desperate attempt to make TM a scientifically, empirically backed "proof" there is a desperate attempt by some to keep away from those areas of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's teaching which are either impossible to prove empirically at this stage or more "spiritual" n nature. For whatever reason - no doubt to gain back-door acceptance in to the secular world - there are those in TM who seem to want to -if not deny then "brush aside" that TM is part of the Vedic tradition and is thus a spiritual one. All of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Thoughts and teaching are thus important. Why pretend that they do not exist in this article? Anyone interested in TM in the first instance will come here first. Are we to a assume that the editors believe that other aspects of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi are so bizarre they need to be prepare first? As I said, this policy does TM a great disservice and reflects a a policy I have seen grow not from Maharishi but the Maharishi University of Management - as if the "movements "intellectual elite" and I use the term loosely - are ashamed of it;s spiritual dimension.
This is similar to the sort of research that is used to support TM#s effectiveness in reducing psychsocialphysiological stress and its - sometimes recorded - benefits to health. The positive effects of mediation, in most but not all, has long been researched and recorded. This is nothing new yet is often present by those academics within the TM movement as if it is exclusive, One could of course quote that when it is compared to other forms of mediation it appears more effective but this will only every be in the short term. Anyone who has studied vedic science will understand that internalization of a mantra will induce a form of mediation quicker then any other. This does not mean that it is either better or worse , although the some thought, a large part indeed, will suggest that this is less then a desirable method in the long term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012forgotpassword ( talk • contribs) 19:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: "Archbishop Cardinal Sin.... interesting name" indeed :-) . I would like to see - specifically with in this article - more references to the TM-Sidhi Program - and naturally Yogic Flying. As the main TM website itself says: "The TM-Sidhi program is a natural extension of the Transcendental Meditation® program and may be learned after two months of regular practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique" It is recognized by Maharishi as an important part of TM, he has stated this on many occasions - to excluded a mention of it is simply not logical within the context of an entry on TM, especially as a TM practitioner should be ready for it within two months TM practice. I am aware that it makes some of the "intellectuals in the "movement" "uneasy" a situation much different to the early 80's oddly enough - as its effects are more difficult to prove empirically and indeed it has been the cause of derision amongst some. However, can you/we really ignore it? I'm aware that you will say it is covered in it's own entry elsewhere - but to not even give a brief overview here? And a link to that article. Should we really be ashamed of something that Maharishi has said its intention is to "To develop higher states of consciousness, bring Life into accord with natural law,and create heaven on earth"? Simply, despite concerted efforts by some within MUM it is empirically difficult rationalize or "prove"? I posted this elsewhere today regarding the desperate attempt by some - and no offense to either of you I can assure you - to empericise "spirituality" - it may give a clearer understanding to you of my particular POV =- you will need to stay with it to the end of it's 4 minutes :-) By the way, in my "non spiritual life" I am a scientist - its no doubt obvious from the poor grammar and spelling ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkck99hyYWk Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 22:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Really .... actually the whole decision as far as I can remember in regards to the TM Sidhi program just had to do with length and trying to find the place to draw the line ... I think its possible to add something but lets discuss it further ... maybe TG will weigh in on this.( olive ( talk) 22:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: thanks for your reply. I do hope so. I'm afraid that I will be a little absent over the next few weeks - i have an horrendous research proposal that needs completing in "real life". However, I will attempt to to contribute when possible. To be honest regarding the articles length - there are far, far longer articles then this one and I should think it would be possible to offset any such objections easily. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 00:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
However, I think it should be nothing more then an overview with a link to the relevant wiki article. Equally, I think there should be little need to analyze, critise or support it here - that is done elsewhere. Just my view. Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 00:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Since this sentence seemed to be a point of contention and since the addition by Rracecar is not correct, as far as all of the sources I have seen go, the best and most obvious move is to remove the sentence completely. It really is a redundant piece of information that serves no purpose.( olive ( talk) 16:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC))
Hi. The Maharishi Effect is straight up paranormal. Can it be explained by science as we know it? No. Ok, it's paranormal. That's not OR, that's the definition of paranormal.
As for the info on MUM, it is important that it be included. David Orme-Johnson is being presented as a researcher who has shown that TM has beneficial effects. Readers should not have to click on the name of the university that employed him, and read that separate article, in order to discover that it is not unaffiliated with the TM movement, but rather is at the very heart of it. There is an important conflict of interest that should not be glossed over. Rracecarr ( talk) 21:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I have no idea why this should be aggravating. Its just a nice little discussion.: ) You shouldn't add paranormal because its not sourced. Not if we're playing Wikipedia rules, and I am. OJ doesn't say this on the web-site. You are pulling a word out of the air... read... its not sourced, and assuming to use it. Whether the Maharishi effect is paranormal or not, whatever you define that to be is not the issue, and is as well a whole other discussion. Apple is a fruit is really a far fetched comparison, unless you live in a place where there are no apples and no fruit and then you'd probably have to source the references for the lay reader who has no clue what an apple is.( olive ( talk) 01:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC))
Defintions of Paronormal:
Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation. www.upisociety.com/vocabulary.html
Describes events or abilities beyond or above normal human powers or senses. www.reiki.nu/treatment/healing/dictionary4/dictionary4.html
Pertaining to a direct effect upon the physical world through means that are not amenable to scientific analysis. May include magic, psionics, and mutant powers. www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/SocDefs.html
Approaching paranormal phenomena from a research perspective is often difficult because even when the phenomena are seen as real they may be difficult to explain using existing rules or theory. By definition, paranormal phenomena exist outside of conventional norms. Skeptics contend that they don't exist at all. Despite this challenge, studies on the paranormal are periodically conducted by researchers from various disciplines. Some researchers study just the beliefs in paranormal phenomena regardless of whether the phenomena actually exist. wiki
The "Maharishi Effect" is certainly easily defined by these terms and thus it is a paranormal "effect"
I'm also with the inclusion of Orm Johnsons affiliation with MUM and a brief explanation of what MUM is within this context. This is highly important within the scope of encyclopedic entry as it clarifies his position statement and that his defense of TM against occult charges may be heavily value laden.
On this basis I equally believe that this description should be reinserted. Indeed, somewhat disapointed as I thought it was the MUM affilated editors who had inserted it Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 01:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok. lets just begin here with assume good faith. I like any other editor here work very hard to edit in the most neutral way possible. Let me add, that there is no reason for me to influence this material except in the most neutral way possible. That kind of editing will not serve the knowledge this article presents. Either that knowledge can stand truth or it can't . I'm not making that decision here. That said, thanks for you definition of paranormal .... But, and again.... thats not the issue. We are dealing with two pillars of Wikipedia policy .... verifiable and reliable .... and we can add OR to that .Please show me the quote that states that OJ considered this to be paranormal or that anywhere in this literature does the word paranormal arise . Then where did the word come from . It was introduced by an editor .... thats not encyclopedic for a word that requires a definition such as the definition you just added to the discussion. As an aside, The original linked reference to MUM was decided on with the consensus of editors editing at that time and was deemed the appropriate way to indicate Orme-Johnson's former affiliation with the university.( olive ( talk) 01:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: Thank you for your feedback, however, I am not convinced that it actually counters the argument for leaving the section as it is. The basic thrust of your argument is that it was decided sometime ago to with the wording that it presently has. However, WIKI is very much a "living" encyclopedia - it's very nature allows continuous edits. Simply because in the past a decision was made that this was the correct style to use does not mean that it is now. I personally like the new edit and believe it makes any "political" position that might exist in Orm Johnson's opinion clear. I am sure as a nurural editor you would want to make sure everyones position was clear Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 01:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid - I'am afraid so, if they are being used to counter a critism of said organiastion - unless of course they are ashamed of their affiliation - which is an issue of little concern to us here I am afraid Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 02:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Timid: Sorry you have lost me - no idea what you are on about - apologies. Anyway, seems thats settled then. Now all we need to do is address the other issues I have raised including the introduction of the Sidhu Program - which seems to have stalled abit. I think Olive was waiting on your impute TG Really2012back ( talk) 15:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I disagree with you TG - the Sidhu programs does need to be included - it has been stated by your leader as an obvious extension of the practice in TM and is obtainable within two months of TM. As it is simply an extension of the mantras it makes perfect sense and needs to be included. The only thing now is how that should be done.
As to the peer reviewed studies as I have said in the Sidhu article I am happy to leave this in - but where these have been managed by members of MUM, we need to include a reference to this each time they are cited - in the interest of clarity of course Really2012back ( talk) 16:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it was referenced on the Orm site - I think this is simply a matter of wording - within all definitions of the term the marhisian effect - or whatever it is called is a Paranormal effect, by any definition of that word. Racccarr could have used any other number of words , psudo-scientific for example, but wisely chose the non value laden paranormal. Indeed, having re looked at the article I think it maybe wise to reclassify it - although keeping the "alternative health" marker I think. I was thinking logically it could fit under paranormal and also Spiritual or perhaps "new age" Not sure which really - I must start another discussion I suppose - o well Really2012back ( talk) 17:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
O sorry Olive I didn't read your full point. Not back down? Goodness I don't think theres any need for such defensive reaction. Lets try and get on and work this out. I personally am off to meditate for a moment and I am sure things will seem clearer - they always do you.know Really2012back ( talk) 17:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: I agree with your last point - and I think you will notice i have only ever discussed changes but not directly made them - at least not yet. However, what seems to happen is this.
i make a point, lets say about the inclusion of the Sidhu program. there is much back and through with you and TG. this goes on for some time - then i will get agreement with either you or Tg - you in this case. rather then make changes myself I will leave it up to you guys - nothing happens. i mention it again and then the the one of you says no and then threatens to raise a dispute. i have traveled the history of this article and i am not the only one to have experienced this or noted it. If these is not a fair preci what has happened then I aoplogis but that it howit appears to meand also others
I am a neutral editor - but when a new age science makes claims to have health benefits - including reducing cortisone, and increasing live expectancy by 25% in the case of patients recovering form carioic shock - then i do have more then a passing interest and indeed, under my professional body have an obligation to examine it.
So let us start a fresh slightly shall we. Let us list each of the contentious "sentences" and here come up with alternative wording as to how they should, or should not be included.
As I presently see it these are:
1 The label of paranormal once within the article 2 The inclusion of the sidhu program as natural extension of the general TM method 3 Some way of high lighten research cited which has been conducted by members or associates of MUM 4 The inclusion of some critique sites - where those critiquing have been published or are experts in their field. This is on the basis of Orm Johnsons sites inclusion =- although this maybe a contentious issue but needs to be addressed.
I think these are the main issues at the moment and if we can all work together over each point and look at how this can be addressed and worded - constructing the sentences here in talk - I think we can ALL: benefit. Thoughts Olive TG? Peace Really2012back ( talk) 19:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
To counter the statement: "A 1971 survey by Leon Otis found that a significant percentage of those who practice the Transcendental Meditation technique also report feeling anxiety, confusion, and depression.[41" The following phrase has been used: "Other researchers have found that the Transcendental Meditation technique has no correlation with these conditions.[42]" The reseach article used to support this is: ^ Herron, Robert E., et al: 1996, “Cost-Effective Hypertension Management: Comparison of Drug Therapies with an Alternative Program,” The American Journal of Managed Care Vol. 11, No. 4, p. 433 However, having read the article in question I am not even convinced that this is actually what it says. However, of even greater worry to me is the nutrality of the researchers concerned. While I have not checked all of them as yet I note that Robert H. Schneider, is Professer of Physiology at MUM - which jas to through some doubt in to nutrality, Charles N. Alexander worked closley with Orm Johnson see for example " Reducing Conflict and Enhancing Quality of Life in Israel Using the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi Program: Explanation of a Social Research Project", Kenneth G. Walton, Ph.D, is Associate Professor, Neurochemistry Laboratory MUM, etc
Indeed, I am presently struggling to find people in this research paper who are not in someway positively connected to MUM. (Shall begin to look more closely at the other research cited throughout this article later. can it not be possible to find a paper not run by TMers to support this counter argument. Or perhaps we need to add within the article in all cases of research affiliation with MUM and the researches authors? That seems a little tedious but I suppose we can look at it. Indeed, perhaps this needs further investgation and insertion in this artcle asa seperate section? 02:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Really2012forgotpassword ( talk)
Olive: Indeed, I agree I was just surprised that Tidid wished to raise it again - but I am happy to discuss Really2012forgotpassword ( talk) 02:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the following:
and cumulative effects in the mind with regular practice.( Travis, Arenander & DuBois 2004) , body ( Barnes, Treiber & Davis 2001) and behavior ( Barnes, Bauza & Treiber 2003) .
Two of the studies (Barnes) don't really seem to show cumulative effects. One is simply another hypertension study and the other looks at classroom behavior. Neither is longitudinal. The third study could go in a possible section on cumulative effects (which was deleted some time ago and which we had consensus to restore. It had been deleted without any discussion and was sourced to peer-reviewed research). TimidGuy ( talk) 17:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Summarizing discussions -please add points
As per Really's Suggestion: ( pasted here for ease) 1 The label of paranormal once within the article 2 The inclusion of the sidhu program as natural extension of the general TM method 3 Some way of high lighten research cited which has been conducted by members or associates of MUM 4 The inclusion of some critique sites - where those critiquing have been published or are experts in their field. This is on the basis of Orm Johnsons sites inclusion =- although this maybe a contentious issue but needs to be addressed.
Issues of contention:
1. Paranormal, Orm Johnson, Maharishi effect.
I'd like to suggest we look at this group of words since there's more trouble here than just with paranormal:
"proponent of the paranormal Maharishi Effect,"
Against inclusion:
OJ has published the research and summarizes it. I quote a scientist friend on this:
he has been a researcher of it and has published (again in top peer reviewed journals) on it - he simply studied it and reported what he found - to suggest or imply anything else is to introduce OR and to implicate not only David, but the reviewers who critiqued and accepted the findings for publication and the journal editors who published the papers
For inclusion:add points —Preceding unsigned comment added by Littleolive oil ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, Olive let us break it down as we would for our students. Very reasonable - although I cringe now re-reading my sentence structure - must be tired. Just to clarify things further - because there are so many points - can we give each item its own subheading - just to ease discussion . So if we could perhaps rename this heading: Issue of contention Paranormal, Orm Johnson, Maharishi effect.
Can I suggest one other thing, let us look at each thing not from our own POV but the real reason for this article and that is that people who come to Wiki who seek impartial information about TM get get just that; honest, non value laden, "truth" about this mediative practice. Looking at each, Paranormal: Personally I think this is a matter of semantics - on everyones behave myself included. What is not important here is whether the Marhisha effect is paranormal, new age, empirically proven or pseudoscience. I think It would have been just as easy for raccar to have said the new-age Maharishi effect, the empirically proven Maharishi effect, the pseudo scientific Maharishi effect. What he is doing here is making a judgment on how best to classify this effect - he is not saying that this is how Orme Johnson would classify it but how an independent, external observer would classify this process given the evidence and definition of paranormal. Now before even attempting to clarify this - if we indeed need to in the context of this article - let us look as to why it was necessary in the firstly place.
The point of identifying Orm Johnsons close affiliation with MUM is that it MIGHT - but that doesn't mean it does - throw some skepticism on the fact that he is the source used to counter this cult argument. I think we have all now agreed that that it is important to mention this affiliation - although we might differ on how to word this. And this we can look look at next. So, we might just have said : " David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (founded by the creator of TM, a place at which all students and faculty practice TM every day), and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research...."
Doing this we identify to the reader that he might be biased - or might not and to some that he may not be the best person to counter the cult argument - or perhaps by his close association with TM he is the best person. If that makes sense - we are simply clarifying his back round and how this might effect our judgment of his analysis.
On this basis what does the expression "..proponent[54] of the paranormal Maharishi Effect..." bring to the first time reader and more importantly is it important to the discussion in question? I have somewhat mixed feelings about this. It is obvious that what we are discussing here is TM and not the Maharishi effect - a different thing. Whether this effect is classified as paranormal, pseudoscience, empirically proven, etc is not important in this context - what is important is whether it adds to the readers understanding. Personally, at this stage I am unsure it does. Really2012back ( talk) 01:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you TG . I have made a brief suggested rewrite of "offending" sentence. Perhaps you might do the same from your perspective here while we wait for Rracecarr to comment? I think that will keep us "moving forward". Peace. Really2012back ( talk) 13:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
reporting that a change in "A" (whatever that might be) is correlated to a change in "B" is straight science based on statistical analysis - that this is repeated in many separate studies is scientifically more compelling and substantiates the statistical link - further the research results themselves are not unusual or "paranormal" (for which there is no generally accepted scientific definition in any case)
Thanks Rraccarr... My comment and opinion are serious and honest and I assume you opinion is too. Adding fact tags on every word is an extreme and not what I'm suggesting . Nor am I suggesting that the term Paranormal cannot be applied to ME if someone really wants to push the definition that way. There are two issues here . You are focused on the fact that in your mind ME is paranormal and everyone should know it . And I am saying, hey, thats fine. Prove it with the reference. If you can't, its not encyclopedic.(
olive (
talk)
19:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC))
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (founded by Maharsihi Mahesh Yogi creator of the TM technique)...
(undent) You have a point. However, my aim is partly to establish some sort of baseline of reality and logic--without these there can be no useful argument. I have doubts about the likelihood of a productive debate with editors who won't acknowledge bald facts. Rracecarr ( talk) 19:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we have come a little unstuck here, however, I think that is my fault not explaining myself fully perhaps.
We have two different arguments here:
1 - How we should structure the reference to Orm Johnson - i.e. how much - briefly - information do we need to give about him for the new reader to decide how to evaluate his counter argument that TM is a "cult". Ie, what information does the new reader need to help their decision process? To me they need to know:
1 That He is a TM researcher 2 That he is qualified in psychology. 3 That he has worked at MUM - for many years 4 That he is an avid supporter of the TM technique. 5 That he is a TM meditator.
All of these facts need to be clarified in a description of who he is - and I think we all have agreed to this - although Olive has concerns about how this can be described aesthetically - which is a very good point and one we can easily address.
2 However, our biggest 2 points of contention here seem to be:
1 That the ME is paranormal process 2 That OJ is a proponent of this technique.
Before getting our selfs embroiled in a discussion of whether these two factors are true - which I think we need to when we hopefully next turn to the Sidhu Program article in WIKI. - do we need to include this information here? It is certain that we are not discussing the ME in the cult section - the cult accusations come from the practice of the TM technique - and perhaps how this effect grows during the Sidhu Program although I am unaware that this has ever been stated.
So, will defining the ME as paranormal - or anything else - be helpful to the reader in this paragraph? Will it add anything further to their ability to judge OJ's ability to counter arguments that TM is a cult? Personally, I feel not. Thoughts.
Olive: I have a PhD in "science" - or at least a few of them and, if we are going to name check universities, a far older and more "respected" university then Stanford, my university tie proves it :-P. As well as lecturing in my particular "brand" of science - in which I am also involved in an "applied manner" I also,lecture on the philosophy of science and I am afraid that the definition of science/non paranormal given by your friend is not correct. This is oversimplified perhaps but: It is not just necessary to show that A causes B. You must also assign a reasonable explanation - within the confines of known "science - whether physics, chemistry, physiology, biochemistry, etc, etc how A causes B. For example, The Druid priest may have conducted a ritual every winter solstice to make sure that the Sun was reborn three days latter. Each year it did, this does not mean that the Druids sun ritual caused the sun to rise although - from their point of view a did indeed cause B. Anther example, each year a "primitive" group of people notice that certain species of bird - lets call this species "Foolish" - fly south , before the nights grow shorter, the snows come, it gets colder, the crops begin to die - let us call this time winter. Noticing this year after year - these people come to the reasoned argument - based on logic designed by one of their philosophers - that A cause B. Thus they decide, through observation and statistical analysis that it is the Foolish flying south at a certain time each year that "cause" winter - A causes B.
TM is a little like this I am afraid. I am aware that some of your physicists have attempted to explain the ME using versions of unified field theory but these have not been accept and are to heavily - and indeed to easily, argued against to use as a valid theory. (lets be honest every "new age theory has attempted to do so). In very simply terms ME "works" by the power of thought to influence the environment and actions of others. This IS a "paranormal" effect - one might even argue some form of psychokinesis. Therese no way to explain it within present scientific knowledge and research into it simple cannot control all of the variables yet to even support it's causal effect. Neither have enough studies been done to even try to.
However, - although I think we will have to address this issue eventually, even if only within the context of the Sidhu Program entry - I repeat is this important at this stage in the article - ie does it have relevance to OJs ability to counter the cult allegations? Really2012back ( talk) 23:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive - sorry it was a joke, hence the :-P symbol at the end, And I know you didn't say MUM you said Stanford - I assume the university - I was being facetious, but in a good mannered way :-). my apologies. O, and I have no difficulty academic credetials of MUM staff - you seem to have some good peole working there. Really2012back ( talk) 00:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
That sounds a not unresonable solution Rracecarr - or even "At least one advocate of TM have has responded by stating ..." Something like that? Really2012back ( talk) 14:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
EDIT: TG,sorry just read your comment "If he ever goes before ArbCom, his violation of the three-revert rule and the subsequent warning by an Admin will be a serious mark against him. Ultimately we're still going to want to get consensus on that edit." Seems a little harsh - firstly he reverted it once, secondly you yourseldf have been accused of edit wars, three the issues of yourself and COI - have been raised on many occassions. Just noting. Really2012back ( talk) 17:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, I m sureyou would befar better at it then me - please Really2012back ( talk) 23:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)start the process.
Since both Really's and TG comments indicate we should be able to move ahead, I have rephrased the sentence under discussion. Some changes include:
And of course, open for discussion.( olive ( talk) 17:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC))
Olive: Thank you for that - however 2 things:
1 We really need to give rcecccar time to res[pond. 2 Given the disputed nature of the article lets work out how the sentnce - for everything we are going to do - structure in here first please and then once we have agreement commit to the page. Really2012back ( talk) 00:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Add, for example many of the studies he is citing are his own or those of those affiliated with MUM. Can we simply bring the paragraph in here and work on it. This might be longer but the best in the long run. Equally, while Im not convinced of the paronormal tag, it maybe wise to mention tm is studied each day at the university and other factors trelavent to this pararaph ref Orm Johnson. Because Racc has not had time to respond yet I have reverted the item till we he can and we all agree on how it should be structured Really2012back ( talk) 00:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive: the points I make may indeed have been discussed ad infinitum, but not resolved and certainly not enough to alllow a rewrite at this stage. It is true that Rracecarr maybe busy with RL - this is why we need to give him time to respond - a day is hardley enough time. Also, I have given thought to his inclussion of the discription paronormal and may have more to say iof he does not respond. .
Really2012back (
talk) 02:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC) .
Really2012back (
talk)
02:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive the word "The" isn't sourced in the article but it is used never-the-less. I believe this is how your "discussion" went with Raccacer" which ended up with you cited some friend from Standford on an incorrect description of the scientific method. So, no it is not resolved and - again - you miss-use wiki guidelines to further your own cause. The "effect" in question is paranormal and it may require that template being applied to its own article and perhaps this one by association. if you would like me to do so then we can discuss. Really2012back ( talk) 03:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition: As both I and Rracecarr have said the association between paronormal and "the effect" in question does not need referencing - however should you want to refernce this word - a waste of time reallt - you can do so using this Evaluating Heterodox Theories Journal article by Evan Fales; Social Forces, Vol. 76, 1997 - I shall look for more. S I have said /I have yet to decide whether to argue for its inclusion. I had decided against it but perhaps I am wrong Really2012back ( talk) 03:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition 2 I'm a fast reader: I notice that in his book "Maharishi Effect: A Personal Journey Through the Movement That Transformed American Spirituality" Geoff Gilpin cites the efect as being paronormal. Indeed, considering that this book won awards, was published by a major publisher there is no mention of it in the wiki artcle here. I assume we will need to address this? Really2012back ( talk) 04:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Addition 3 in A Methodological Critique of a Test of the Effects of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field The Journal of Conflict Resolution, Vol. 34, No. 4 (Dec., 1990), pp. 745-755
The author refers to the paronormal effects of the ..um..."Maharisi effect" Really2012back ( talk) 04:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you wish for me to continue or do you think these are enough references? Really2012back ( talk) 04:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Reality is subjective experince Olive and if that is how you feel then I am sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 18:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I see that one of our Christian Fundamentalist friends has removed the clarification of who OJ is and his back round on the basis that this is "hype". I give up. I'm going away, I don't want to play anymore. No wonder MUM is so involved in this article - Poor sods. A battle between the hoppers and "I'm going to get sucked-up into the sky at any momenters". "Now how can I speed this up? I know, I'll reinstate the Israeli state to generate conflict in the middle East - and fulfill bible "prophecy" while electing complete warmongering, prolife "nutters" to the white house - although they are believers". I don't want to play anymore, There is no logic to this at all. No wonder I dislike getting involved in religious articles. Hopping for peace and charging for it? Sounds better then praying for Armageddon and damming homosexual men to "eternal damnation in ...um..."hell". I've had enough, out of here. Peace Really2012back ( talk) 08:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
This needs rewording:
"Effects on the physiology
Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. The first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13]
This research found that the Transcendental Meditation technique produced a physiological state that was termed "restful alertness." During the practice of the technique the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, yet EEG measurements showed increased coherence and integration of brain functioning,[14] indicating that the physiology was alert rather than asleep.[15]
Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood).[16]"
In its present state it is missleading - a brief examination of pubmed presently shows the results of 755 peer reviewed studies finding exactly the same results for other mediative practices including Tai Chi. As it presently reads it seems thatthis efects - are to only be found in TM. We need to re-wright to take this into account. Thoughts Really2012back ( talk) 03:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG. I think you are partly right and a very good point. I'm really not suggesting a major re-write and perhaps my comment seems a little harsh and I did not explain my self correctly sorry. Let me do so and we can discus's
Again, for the new reader coming to the article further information, they will of course want to know what physiological effects the practice of TM meditation has - if any. And indeed, we can see that it does seem to have some good positive effects. However, it would, I think it can be argued necessary to point out that the same effects can be found in a wide range of meditative practices. This is especial so as the article mentions in place studies done by those associated with MUM, etc that found TM had more positive effects then other practices - at least one study.
Equally, as you know, have criticized TM studies due to bias and poor methodology, i think that ut would actually su[pport the "positive" effects of TM by pointing out that these have been also found in a wide range of other mediative practices also. I think some times the "positve" effects of TM and meditation get confused with with other aspects and are seen negatively. Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The re-write I was thinking would be something like: "As with many other meditave practices such as yoga, tai chi, etc, Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during..."
Something like this TG. Just a mention nothing to contentious and keeping the focus on TM. What do you think? Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG - it depends on how you do your search either in Medline or Pubmed.The following is Pubmed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez. These are available to the general public and to be honest I have deliberately left the search wide - 1465 results.I assume at MUM you will have academic access to Medline, CINAHL,COCHRANE, etc. This engine's are far better IMO and what I recommend to my students however, pubmed is where I tell them to start - at least in the first year.Have a play around using different search criteria related to meditation and you will see what Imean. hose outside of "medicine" find it easy to believe that it is only TM that shows these results. This is in great part due to MUM and the fact that other meditative techniques are simply not that good at this type or promotion or simply do not think it is relevant - hence the research tends to be done by far less personally interested parties. I am old TG - and have been through this debate with my own medical council back in the 80s - 84 to be precise. Although those supporters of what has become known as Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction MBSR are becoming a more organized group - no doubt due the the involvement of University of Massachusetts Medical School and the fact that in USA these courses, videos, etc are offered free. Due to University of Massachusetts Medical School there has been an explosion in peer reviewed papers - check
http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/research/index.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=42066.
You will see that not only do these studies show the benefits you mention but even seem to show benefits in patient with Epilepsy, ADHD a, schizophrenia and even chronic hepatitis C.
You can see from this why I believe that it is important for the new reader that these findings are not specific to TM or indeed that other practices have found even greater benefit. Peace my friend Really2012back ( talk) 18:16, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Naturezak sorry i didn't see your comment. I agree completely and would have to say that it is the same with other mediative techniques - I think it is for this reason that most meditation teachers simply remove themselves from the argument and do not cite the research. All of these statements to outcome - except psychosocial effects as self reported perhaps - are only valued if you accept fully the more "extreme" ends of the psychosocialphysioimmunological/gene repair - theory/s of "health" and these are far from excepted despite 1000s of research papers and peer reviewed journals specifically written for them - indeed, since the mid/late 90s these theories seem to be falling out of favor. Fully agree.Although oddly, not a debate i wish to enter into - I have bben through this far to many times in RL - and am frankly a tad bored of it. Really2012back ( talk) 18:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG - while a good point I would have to disagree, The MAC/PC analogy is a good one but it would be common knowledge to everyone that you can use a MAC to word process as well as a PC - although the results would be a tad different. Readers new to this subject -meditation - would be unaware that you the effects achieved in TM - and so well documented in this article by supporting research - are just as easily achieved by so many other sources. To use the the same analogy. It would be like saying: "research by watts, watts and watts has proven that an IPM PC can allow the reader to play an electronic version of patience easily and with no difficulty" Well, yes but the same is possible on a PC. It really does appear at the moment that this effects are specific to TM meditation - and this is blatantly untrue. I am not questioning that it should be unbiased - Ie - as is the case - a combination of Tia Chi and Yoga - has appeared to show an increase in life expectancy in HIV patients yet no such research has found a link with TM.
However, what we have here are standard effects that need to be shown as the same for most forms of meditation. As to Travis's research - sheer nonsense I am afraid. Gamma waves are "strenuous"? what? "...mindfulness meditation, the brain appears to be imbalanced" The brain is imbalanced? I like you TG and understand you are not a scientist and certainly not a physiologist or nuropshysiologist. Indedd, "inbalanced maybe a good thig and what one would be looking for. I havn'e the time here but perhaps this might help -if its the right study -im in a rish Takahashi T, Murata T, Hamada T, Omori M, Kosaka H, Kikuchi M, Yoshida H, Wada Y.
Department of Neuropsychiatry, Faculty of Medical Sciences, University of Fukui, Matsuoka-cho, Fukui 910-1193, Japan.
Anyway, my friend here in this article it is the the positive effects on physiological effects that are generally being cited, cortisone levels, etc - ie control of biomedical markers that are considered responsible by "some" in leading to "illness" these - and the fact that people self report to a feeling of "restfullness" yet more alert with "increasded" "cognitive function" are not unique to TM and this needs needs to be stressed. Really2012back ( talk) 08:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, what is the best way of doing this? Simply adding the statment "as with other meditiative practices such as .....it has been found that TM..." or can we thisnk of a different way of doing it? Really2012back ( talk) 08:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
PS,I noticed that Fred Travis is another highly active TMer http://www.fredtravis.com/ - is any research in TM with "positive effects" actually done by non TMrs? Joke. :-) Peace my friend —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012back ( talk • contribs) 08:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
TG, Well, you ain't doing to bad bud, However, back to "restful alertness" the reason you are struggling with that - as I think you have pointed out accidental, is that there is no such medical/scientific concept - outside of TM it would seem - its "a made up" concept with absolutely no grounding in any science/medical/psychological text book. I believe it owes its origins to a term coined sometime in the early 7o's at the beginning of that decades craze for studies on meditation - in a paper studying TM. Its absolute nonsense - but I really didn't want to get into that and won't - I promise. As to the neurophsyiological correlates, well again you really don't want me to go down that road - but Travis "party trick" at pro TM conferences is always a good laugh. One can see the non science student wowing all over the place,(even if they have no idea whats going on.) as a young TMer is dragged out - electrodes in place - and told to begin meditation
However, the other things are shown to be lowered or heightened depending,such as, plasma cortisol levels, increased vasodilation here, dilation there, increased alertness, academic performance etc, etc, etc. have been found to take place in many other forms of meditation - these are simply the results of successful meditation - this cannot be argued.
For example the lines:
"Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood)" This found repeatly with other forms of meditation It has to be necessary to mention this - without getting into details - not to would turn this from an encyclopedic entery into a brochure - and I really believe that is not what you want. Tell you what though, I'll do you a deal,you can keep "restful wakefullness" especial for TM. Don't say I never do you any favors :-). Although, I should point out that restful alertness seems to have been kidnapped by other al;ternative medicine people noy. Seems the highly published - and thus wiki compliant - Harold Bloomfield, M.D. says you can achieve this using some Ayurvedic herbal remedies he seems to be selling: http://soulfulliving.com/quintessentialpeace.htm, theres another company offering restful wakefulness in a bottle: http://www.functiondrinks.com/science-va.php, Seems your days are nearly up TG So, how to proceed. Really2012back ( talk) 19:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry TG I don't "need" to convince you of anything. I know its not what you mean but that makes it sound like you "own" the article. i have stated reasonably that as it is presently worded the results stated are found across a wide range of meditative practices. so far that only ones i cannot find else where are:
It reduces your biological age by 12 years - you can keep that one.
Alert wakefullness - a meaningless term, you can keep that one.
Doing other forms of meditation are able to alter reality and make people do what you want them to - you can keep that one.
Unless, you can show that TM is unique in:
"Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. The first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13], and Studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of high blood pressure,[17] younger biological age,[18] decreased insomnia,[19] reduction of high cholesterol,[20] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[21] decreased outpatient visits,[22] decreased cigarette smoking,[23] decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25]. Then this are nothing more then general events found in nearly all other meditative practices. Unless this wiki article is a promotional item only for TM there is no reason why each can not be proceed by "As with other other mediative practices it has been found that TM...." this would be the correct encyclopedic entry - without doubt. Really2012back ( talk) 01:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: TG. Of course should you want a recent, peer reviewed meta study which has examined mediation, the effects of mediation and states that the results of TM are the same - and comparable to other forms of meditation , then I suppose you would want to read this recent report: http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf. Page 29 on wards will be of interest to you. You will also notice that it critiques the assumptions of improvement in health made by TM - and indeed all other meditative practices. i think you will find this report fully WIKI compliant and we can reference this rather then then the 1000s of studies in Pubmed for example - might save some time really. And of course - as I think you were worried about - not being original research.
So, how shall we go about the editing process? Really2012back ( talk) 01:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, just a quickie - heading off to Oxford - you might know it? :-). I hope your mediation went well and that everything is well with the world. Aye, I have read the critique also, am familiar with it's author etc - and don't agree but hey, that would be original research. TG I think I'm coming across as an arse and that is not meant. Personally, i' m not bothered about the critique of TM - or indeed, any other form of meditation in that report. I do believe that it is correct about alot of it's comments regarding meditation research - alas. Although to me it missed a golden opportunity to critique these called "health benefits" of the changes in physiology this research believes it detects. But I have said before this is an argument I have had in RL for many years and I'm to bored with to get involved here. My main point, is that the way the article is written at the moment it appears that TM is alone in the changes many of the changes that occur. There are two ways to rectify this:
1 State exactly what those changes are - ie list the exact levels of changes in biomedical markers. <2> Admit that there are common changes thought meditation and say so - where they occur - briefly. Personally, I wouldn't go down the route of citing the report in question and it's critics - but hell thats your decision.#
I shall leave you in peace for the weekend my friend, enjoy it, etc. Peace Really2012back ( talk) 17:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
HI TG Athens~? I have been but alas no I don't live there - wish I did. I Oxford was Oxford - same old - you know what it's like - but enjoyable, thank you. I think thats a slight misunderstanding of no original research but perhaps that is my fault. That ruling refers to original unpublished research basically. This ismy fault asi am not explaining what i mean correctly TG - sorry. If the article said for example - "TM has been shown to decrease cortisol plasma levels by 23% below physiologically norms" for example -and other meditation research said that other forms of meditation showed decreases below 50% for example - then you would be right -it wouldnotbepossibletocompare - due to the large difference. However, using my example - the article presen;ty says-lowers cortisol levels -well this has been found an my studies -these are generalizations in the article. Now, if you can re-write top make it more precise and then prove that other studies found vastly different results in other meditation types we would be in agreement. perhaps you can re-right to make it more precise and then we can discuss. however, if it was for example, research found TM reduced plasma cortisol levels - on average -by 5% and and other studies found 6% percent then we could worth it as - these are similar findings as in othermeditaive meditave. To not associate them the difference would need to be clearly defined by the research as large. This is not possible everything however, for example no mediative research claims to reduce a persons age by 12 years (would love to see this research by the way) so that would;dbe specific to TM. Hope that makes sense -must dash. Really2012back ( talk) 18:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
TG I am really struggling why you can't grasp this. "Why would one need to prove that studies on other meditation techniques found something different?" Not asking you to. I am saying that tm results are very similiar - in most instances - to the results of other meditiaion practicees - or at least as the article is presently written. "disallowing original research says, in a nutshell, you're not supposed to put in any information that hasn't been published in a reliable source." I think I sent you to both pubmed and the article you dislike so much that proves - without orginal, research that TM is not unique in the effects it has - as you have just said "it doesn't claim to be unique. Why then - unless this was a huge advert for TM - is it so difficult to say, "as with other forms of mediation it has been found that TM can....." This is fact, this is correct but may not be something that the general reader would be aware of.
What is the rational for the existence of an Encyclopedias? From the very first one written in the Enlightenment Europe? It was to educate and inform the reader about subjects. Why is this so "wrong"? I am struggling with your argument and use of the policy on disallowing original research. Saying that TM has the same sort of effects as other forms of meditation is not drawing conclusions - it is obviously fact. Drawing conclusions would be:
Example 1 Tai Chi is mediation. TM is mediation. Tai chi can/is meditations conducted while moving thus TM can be conducted while moving.
Example 2 TM is a form of meditation that been shown to decrease biological age by 12 years. Tai Chi is meditation thus Tai chi can reduce biological age by 12 years.
Come TG use that fine brain of yours my friend. This isn't difficult stuff - even in the humanities :-) Really2012back ( talk) 21:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG - sorry for my absence - hope all is well my friend. This report states so http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf. Really2012back ( talk) 18:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC) Edit: Does Meditation Enhance Cognition and Brain Longevity? Doraiswamy PM, Xiong GL. One year pre-post intervention follow-up of psychological, immune, endocrine and blood pressure outcomes of mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) in breast and prostate cancer outpatients. Brain Behav Immun. 2007 Nov;21(8):1038-49. Epub 2007 May 22. Robert McComb JJ, Tacon A, Randolph P, Caldera Y. Abstract A pilot study to examine the effects of a mindfulness-based stress-reduction and relaxation program on levels of stress hormones, physical functioning, and submaximal exercise responses. J Altern Complement Med. 2004 Oct;10(5):819-27 Really2012back ( talk) 18:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: J Altern Complement Med. 2006 Oct;12(8):817-32. Systematic review of the efficacy of meditation techniques as treatments for medical illness. Arias AJ, Steinberg K, Banga A, Trestman RL. Department of Psychiatry, University of Connecticut Medical School, Farmington, CT, USA. arias@psychiatry.uchc.edu
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm
TG Apologies, I understand what has been happening now and my fault. I was trying to follow WIKI guidelines completely - and perhaps thinking to much like a scientist. While you have been thinking specifically like a pro TMer and no insult meant at all, only that you are thinking in to great a specific. To any of us "in the field" it has been long considered that there may be some link between psychosocial stress, physioimmuniology and stress coping mechanisms. Of the latter, Meditation has been long considered. Now, it must be understood at that here, the "type" of meditation is not important, only that it "works". If you read a paragraph from the article/page from NCCMA I pointed you to (fully wiki compliant).
"Meditation and Imaging
"Meditation, one of the most common mind-body interventions, is a conscious mental process that induces a set of integrated physiological changes termed the relaxation response. Functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) has been used to identify and characterize the brain regions that are active during meditation. This research suggests that various parts of the brain known to be involved in attention and in the control of the autonomic nervous system are activated, providing a neurochemical and anatomical basis for the effects of meditation on various physiological activities.13 Recent studies involving imaging are advancing the understanding of mind-body mechanisms. For example, meditation has been shown in one study to produce significant increases in left-sided anterior brain activity, which is associated with positive emotional states. Moreover, in this same study, meditation was associated with increases in antibody titers to influenza vaccine, suggesting potential linkages among meditation, positive emotional states, localized brain responses, and improved immune function."
You will notice no mention of TM here - it is meditation in general. In the general literature of undergraduate/graduate doctors for example - the general medical psychology textbooks will mention meditation and then perhaps list some and their physiological/psychological effects. Each of the studies I have given you will use the term meditation has been found to/thought to/argued that - etc. All of the studies -but let us keep it simple by using the page i have just quoted for the "layman/woman" - refer to mediation, has been cited to....." So, within these terms and any of the references given - one must begin an article on TM which cites its physiological effects by saying something like. "T|M, like many other forms of meditation has been found to....." The only way to avoid this - within WIKI rules which you are so familiar with - would be if TM is actually not a form of meditation but something else. A religion for example, or practical magic, paranormal training, etc. Equally, any other Mediative practice quoted in WIKI would need to say the same thing. You could of course qualify this statement - as long as it was true and referenced: "however, TM has been found to be more effective then (list mediative practices)in the control of ...." But you have just stated the problem with this and that is finding studies that have looked at them in complete comparison. Edit: Perhaps to simplify this for the "laywomen/man" A read through this book - or if you do not have access to it then the extracts here http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/index.htm You will notice that it is meditiaon in general and it's physiological effects that are mentioned. While it is understood that diffeent forms of medititaion may have different physological responces - although in noway "proved" in the research - it is understoad that all - or virtually all - do have these effects. Really2012back ( talk) 01:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Again, my apologies for not making myself clear - I will begin a draft re-writwe for everyones consideration. Really2012back ( talk) 00:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
DRAFT : PHYSIOLOGY: Effects on the physiology As with a range of other meditative technigues(ref: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm#intervention) - such as Yoga Meditation, Tai Chi, MBSR, Buddhist Meditation - research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of Transcendental Meditation. Specifically in relation to TM the first of these studies was published in the early 1970’s in Science,[11] American Journal of Physiology,[12] and Scientific American.[13] This research found that the Transcendental Meditation technique produced a physiological state that, early researchers termed "restful alertness." As with other forms of meditation, during the practice of TM the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, while EEG measurements show increased coherence and integration of brain functioning,[14] indicating that the physiology was alert rather than asleep.[15] Studies suggest that this state of physiology promotes regulation of cortisol and other hormones associated with chronic stress and a healthier regulation of serotonin (a neurotransmitter associated with mood).[16]
I think from here it s obviouse how the rest should be structered. Personally, I am happy wity just the : http://nccam.nih.gov/health/backgrounds/mindbody.htm#intervention - easy for the new rreader to find, reliable, etc - however we can include more refernces if neccessary. Really2012back ( talk) 06:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Completely disagree TG - this is standard comparison. As i have said, if you wish to make it specific to TM then you need to be more Specific. I.E TM reduces plasma cortisol revels by exactly - x amount. This is not the case at the moment. Alas, I feel however that this is getting nowhere at the moment - and I am afraid that this is due to the fact that you work for the organization that we're discussing - fully understandable that you have such loyalties and I am not criticizing. However, this has simply gone on long enough - you ask for examples - wiki acceptable - that state that meditation has all of the similarities for meditation stated in the article. I have provided this. I have also, given note to research that MUM has conducted which has found that differences - this is clear in my draft. Yet you still protest. I have been extreamly patient with your obviouse COI yet I feel this has been ignored. Alas i think it is time to take to mediation regarding this one matter. Would you like to start my friend or shall I? Really2012back ( talk) 14:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
TG - Sorry, I am growing a tad bored of this. A have repeated on numerous occasions that the article begins with generalizations it says and I quote:
"Research studies have described specific physiological effects that occur during the practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique"
This is simply to general. All meditation has been shown to to have specific effects during practice. i have provided you with direct evidence of this and material which states exactly the same thing regarding other forms of mediation in general - which include TM.
It continues:
." During the practice of the technique the physiology becomes relaxed, as indicated by significant reductions in respiration, minute ventilation, tidal volume, blood lactate, and significant increases in basal skin resistance, yet EEG measurements showed increased coherence and integration of brain functioning," This is exactly as described for many other forms of meditation. I have provided you with evidence of this and pointed you to wiki compliant sources to support this - as requested by yourself.
I wrote a revision of the paragraph here for you to comment on and suggest suggestions before it was added. You stated that there were response that had not been found/researched to occur in other forms of meditation - reduction in medical expenditure, reduction in biological age by 12 years, etc. I took this into account as you can see above. The need for clear understanding that TM is not unique in this finds needs to be stated for not only is it encyclopedic but follows wiki guidelines about articles about companies and products - i have provided you with this guidelines twice now but again: "Material published by a trading organization is a view of how that organization looks on itself however it will also have a marketing component and may lack neutrality" In addition WIKI says:
"Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used." The reasons for this should be obviously. In the case of TM the website claims that the "benefits" of TM meditation are unique and not to be found in other forms of meditation. It is obvious that this would be said as TM is a trademarked product sold at 2300 dollars in the USA and different amounts. We have noted that the federal organization which I have directed you to which says:
Over the past 20 years, mind-body medicinePractices that focus on the interactions among the brain, mind, body, and behavior, with the intent to use the mind to affect physical functioning and promote health. Examples include meditation and yoga. has provided considerable evidence that psychological factors can play a substantive role in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. There is evidence that mind-body interventions can be effective in the treatment of coronary artery disease, enhancing the effect of standard cardiac rehabilitation in reducing all-cause mortality and cardiac event recurrences for up to 2 years.5 Mind-body interventions have also been applied to various types of pain. Clinical trials indicate that these interventions may be a particularly effective adjunct in the management of arthritis, with reductions in pain maintained for up to 4 years and reductions in the number of physician visits.6 When applied to more general acute and chronic pain management, headache, and low-back pain, mind-body interventions show some evidence of effects, although results vary based on the patient population and type of intervention studied.7 Evidence from multiple studies with various types of cancer patients suggests that mind-body interventions can improve mood, quality of life, and coping, as well as ameliorate disease- and treatment-related symptoms, such as chemotherapy-induced nausea, vomiting, and pain.8 Some studies have suggested that mind-body interventions can alter various immune parameters, but it is unclear whether these alterations are of sufficient magnitude to have an impact on disease progression or prognosis.9,10
Over the past 20 years, mind-body medicinePractices that focus on the interactions among the brain, mind, body, and behavior, with the intent to use the mind to affect physical functioning and promote health. Examples include meditation and yoga. has provided considerable evidence that psychological factors can play a substantive role in the development and progression of coronary artery disease. There is evidence that mind-body interventions can be effective in the treatment of coronary artery disease, enhancing the effect of standard cardiac rehabilitation in reducing all-cause mortality and cardiac event recurrences for up to 2 years.5 Mind-body interventions have also been applied to various types of pain. Clinical trials indicate that these interventions may be a particularly effective adjunct in the management of arthritis, with reductions in pain maintained for up to 4 years and reductions in the number of physician visits.6 When applied to more general acute and chronic pain management, headache, and low-back pain, mind-body interventions show some evidence of effects, although results vary based on the patient population and type of intervention studied.7 Evidence from multiple studies with various types of cancer patients suggests that mind-body interventions can improve mood, quality of life, and coping, as well as ameliorate disease- and treatment-related symptoms, such as chemotherapy-induced nausea, vomiting, and pain.8 Some studies have suggested that mind-body interventions can alter various immune parameters, but it is unclear whether these alterations are of sufficient magnitude to have an impact on disease progression or prognosis.9,10
I have also directed you to published studies, textbooks, etc which state the same. The most of the effects cited under physiology - have been found in many other forms of mediation. This is fact. Those effects unique to TM, the ability to fly, walk through walls, reduction in biological age by 12 years - have not been found elsewhere and I have, in the draft, commented on this.
I think I have been more then "fair" and have followed wiki guidelines beyond the norm. If you are not prepared to make suggestions to the text then i will insert as is - having "cleaned it up a bit". I await your constructive response, or indeed anyone elses impute. Really2012back ( talk) 11:16, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
TG, as you know, I said that I was going to stay out of this but your comment: "What's the relationship of TM to the TM-Sidhi program?" Is clearly ridiculous my friend and is as disappointing to me as you and Olive removing the fact that you are TMers/work from MUM in your pages - sorry.
I quote from your own web page - TM that is: What is the TM-Sidhi Program? The TM-Sidhi program is an advanced program of Maharishi Vedic Science and TechnologySM, the complete science and technology of Natural Law. The TM-Sidhi program is a natural extension of the Transcendental Meditation® program and may be learned after two months of regular practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. Practice of the TM-Sidhi program accelerates the progress of the individual towards realizing his full potential -- the state of enlightenment.
If the TM organisation is ashamed of it perhaps dropping it from the website and making it part of your occult knowledge for adepts might be best. Till then it needs to be mentioned. I am with nat for its inclusion. I think that there should be no more long discussions if it should, but now work should begin on how.
Sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 06:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Range of studies
Studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of high blood pressure,[17] younger biological age,[18] decreased insomnia,[19] reduction of high cholesterol,[20] reduced illness and medical expenditures,[21] decreased outpatient visits,[22] decreased cigarette smoking,[23] decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25].
Same as above, same finding 1000s of studies in other mediative practices - how can this be included? Really2012back ( talk) 03:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG - again, good point, please see my respnce above. Really2012back ( talk) 14:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
RE_WRITE
AS with other mediative techniques of differing disciplines (ref)- Tai Chi, MBSR, Yoga, etc - studies have reported finding a positive correlation between the Transcendental Meditation technique and various health-related conditions, including reduction of "high" blood pressure,[17] ,[18] decreased insomnia, decreased cigarette smoking,[23], a reduction of "high" cholesterol[20], decreased alcohol use,[24]. and decreased anxiety.[25]. Unique to TM, studies have been conducted which claim that TM practitioners show: younger biological age, reduced medical expenditures,[21] and decreased outpatient visits,[22) Also, unique to TM, advanced practice - recommended after 2 months "basic" TM practice, claims to bulid on these health improvements while generating the unusal physiological abilties. These include giving the practitioner the ability to fly - yogic flying - walk-through walls, and other paranormal abilities. Really2012back ( talk) 07:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk) 07:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
If you notice TG,I said these were reported exclusivly to tm Really2012back ( talk) 14:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi TG, I have looked at this closely, and I i think I know why you don't want this distinction made - I have noted on the TM website that the effects of mediation are stated as being exclusive to TM. And my friend I do genuinely understand your loyalty to a spirtual pratcice that is such an important part of your life and I genuinely don't wish to cause offense. Your suggestion is good but simply does not go far enough in my opinion. I have explained the rational various times and provide the support for it in reliable source as you have requested - yet we still seem to not be able to come to agreement. You will also notice that i have not tried to reduce the impact of TM mediation in anyway and made it clear that there have been additional effects noted for TM that have not been researched in other mediative practices - I have attempted to make this distinction clear. Why not look at the way I have drafted this and come up with a draft that you feel would be more appropriate? If we can work collaboratively together I believe we can construct something accurate in the confines of an encyclopedic entry. Peace my friend. Really2012back ( talk) 23:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
TG: A good suggestion - and not an unreasonable one at all my friend, but I have my hands full with just this article and 2 others -I try not to concentrate on to many at the same time.
No, I think I have answered these questions on the previous thread. The suggestions I have made are simple, straight forword and easy to implement.We shall continue with them. The only thing now is to decide is it to be in the form I have suggested or if someone else can come up with a better way of wording it. Have we included to much information on the TM-Sidhi Program for example. Or not enough in this context? Do we need to name the other mediative techniques or just say others and include the reference suggested? If there are any in there that charge money to teach them I would not like to encourage it personally. I have the strange belief that any easy way to improve peoples health and bring world peace - especially from a spiritual perspective -should be free, but it seems that nothing comes cheap these days. Really2012back ( talk) 14:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
In 2003 a study in the journal, Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift, reviewed ten randomized, controlled trials that looked at the effect of the Transcendental Meditation technique on cognitive function. Four trials showed a significant effect on cognitive function, while the remaining trials showed mixed results. Study authors, Canter and Ernst, noted that the four positive trials used subjects who had already intended to learn the Transcendental Meditation technique, and attributed the significant positive results to an expectation effect.[39] Orme-Johnson, co-author of one of these trials, has critiqued this study, noting errors and omissions.[40]
Simply not acceptable to quote from a critiqued articles website to counter a peer reviewed examination. It is normal practice for a research author to publish a reply to any such criticism in the journal cited. This does not seem to have happened in this case. Sorry simply not acceptable. and needs to be removed Really2012back ( talk) 03:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
TG. I hate to say it, but I think it might be right at a stretch to be honest - but perhaps you are right. Let us get the other issues out of the way first. Really2012back ( talk) 14:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Added working copy for group editing purposes.( olive ( talk) 16:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC))
Orme-Johnson paragraph - working
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (which was founded by the inventor of TM, and at which all students and faculty practice TM every day), believer in the paranormal Maharishi Effect, and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique, cites research showing greater autonomy, innovative thought, and increases in creativity, general intelligence and moral reasoning in TM practitioners. According to Orme–Johnson cult followers operate on blind faith and adherence to arbitrary rules and authority, and these studies indicate the ability of TM practitioners to make mature, independent, principle-based judgments.
David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at Maharishi University of Management (which was founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) and author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique and the paranormal Maharishi Effect,
cites . . . TimidGuy ( talk) 17:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Argg! If some one can just tell me why it is important to mention .."paranormal Maharishi effect" I will be happy - that I have argued it's is paronormal is neither here nor there. Why do we need to mention it in the this context? :-) Really2012back ( talk) 18:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Really2012back ( talk) 21:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)sounds good to me but does need to mention OJ is a strong propent of TM
I suppose we need raccare to respond really, i would suspect that he has reasons for the paronormal tag - they are simply ones that I don#t "get ate the moment. However, if it continues the way it is going it will return to the way it was - it is very important that OJ's association, practice and support for TM is understood. A non interested , unbiased researcher would not have created the website that he has. This needs to be clarified. No matter wither he has previously been published hehas been an d continues to be - a close supporting member of the TM movement, This has to be clarified. But let us continue. Really2012back ( talk) 19:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Olive Race: I now I think I understand the point of the Paranormal tag. As such OJ is being used here as little more then a "character witness". It is not his or anyone Else's research on TM being a cult but his assumptions - based on research that mainly he has carried out that on TM - form which he is making assumptions. for this reason Race sees it as important to understand all of his interests and research in TM, including the ME, to allow the reader to make a judgment on his abilities to comment. I see the logic now i think. However, i need to rush out - I have one of those horrible "local flights" to catch - I will comment further when i return if this has not been settled. peace Really2012back ( talk) 08:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
O I forgot, as its starting to look a little neglected can we also begin discussion on how we can include the other mediative practices and the effects found in TM - see physiology studies, etc above. Really2012back ( talk) 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand but never-the-less he is making an unpublished judgment based on his interpretation of research conducted, which achieved positive - for TM - results while extrapolating this against an argument that TM is a cult - he has never conducted such research to counter the argument made. He is certainly, pro TM with close ties to the movement. Thus, his opinions on his website - for they are no more then this - must be seen from this perspective,indeed, OJ says himself on his website:
"This website ... is strictly an expression of my own understanding and personal experiences, stated as candidly and as clearly as I can."
It is also, clear that from his site he "believes" in TM mediated effects for which there is no established agreement in the scientific community that they even exist - never-the less proved they exist - which he states as absolutes> I quote:
"There have been 51 studies showing that the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi program (which includes Yogic Flying) improves the quality of life in the larger society; the findings of which have been published in leading peer-reviewed scientific journals and presented and published in the proceedings of professional conferences."
Yogic flying? It is difficult to argue against allowing a new reader the opportunity of assessing a counter arguments conditionals based on this knowledge.
Races argument, and indeed mine, is that the reader must understand his interests and those ideas within the TM movement that he supports. Realistically, he should not be used at all - but as the TM movement are struggling to find any further supporting evidence I, personally and with reservations am reluctantly agreeing to it all. Perhaps on that basis,and using LO/TGs well structured sentence re-right we could say: On his personal website, David Orme-Johnson, former psychology professor and researcher at the TM affiliated and owned Maharishi University of Management (founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi) author author of over 100 studies related to the Transcendental Meditation technique and proponent of the paranormal Maharishi Effect - including Yogic flying, argues..." Really2012back ( talk) 18:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
TG, no you are quite right , in the interests of fairness and balance I think it is indeed necessary to mention all of those things - if they are relevant and referenced - about the critiques too. Very fair. I shall await on their addition or begin work on them myself. Really2012back ( talk) 23:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Goodness, I missed this one - according to the official website daily TM - not sidhu program - reverse your biological age by 12 years! http://www.tm.org/discover/research/reversal_aging.html Goodness, we must get this into the wiki enetry as soon as possible - under physiological effects of course. Now how best to do it? Really2012back ( talk) 20:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if im adding to much here but according to the TM website again: Maharishi predicted in 1960 that if just one percent of the world’s population practiced the Transcendental Meditation technique, there would be an end to war. In 1974, scientists noted a growing number of cities where one percent of the population had learned the Transcendental Meditaition technique. They looked at crime statistics in these “one percent” cities, they found that when a city reached the one percent level there was a decrease in the crime rate. At the same time, matched control cities maintained an increase in crime rate—as did the United States as a whole. They named this phenomenon the Maharishi Effect.
I know the ME has a seperate section but I didn't realise that Maharisi said this would ha[ppen from tm and not the tm Sidhu program. Really need to include some of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Really2012back ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Really, the examples you have given are very clear examples of synthesis of material, and therefore Original Research according to Wikipedia policy. Material included in the article must have a direct reference relating to that inclusion. For example: Tai Chi is shown by ... such and such a study... to have the same effects as Transcendental Meditation.( olive ( talk) 22:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC))
Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources.
Um...Im in agreement with you Olive the examples I gave are synthesis - or to be exact they are assuming a from B. This would be against wiki policy but what i am suggesting isn't deriving A from B as the examples i give do, they are simply repeating research, peer reviewed facts. They say, for example, "Orm Johnson, Some One Else Working At MUM, Someone Else Working At MUM, and Research Paid By MUM (2001) found that after daily TM meditation plasma cortisol levels were reduced compared to those prior to mediation. Similarly: "Non TMr, Non working for MUM and Research Not Funded By MUM (2001) found that after daily yoga meditation practice plasma cortisone levels were lower then before meditation."
If TM is mediation, and Yoga Meditation is meditation - which TM admits - the only real difference you cite (apart from bringing world peace, making people younger, flying, walking through walks, etc) is that TM needs no effort. So, if TM is meditation - and not something else, and other forms of meditation are meditation and not something else, then the statement: "TM reduces plasma Cortisol levels just as other forms of mediation such as ...." must make sense. It isn't extrapolating or deriving, it is fact. Now I now your knot a scientist Olive but surely you must access your students on critical reasoning in your classes? Or are things different in education in the USA? If they are, my apologies for, in this case, assuming.
Another example that would be wrong would be this:
Orm Johnson, TM researcher and writer of over 100 - peer reviewed papers on TM has stated that advanced TM meditaion - the Sidhu Program - will allow you to fly (Orm Johnson: 2007) Thus, as TM is meditation and so is Tai Chi - conducting Tai Chi meditaion will allow you to fly. This is obviously wrong Really2012back ( talk) 23:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk) 23:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "
'Edit, sorry Olive, my apologies, I see what you mean I think. You must have missed part of my conversation with TG - the danger of starting a new section connected to another. I have cited the references finding the same results already to TG above - and of course these would need to be included in the final draft. Apologies - its late here :-) Really2012back ( talk) 23:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)'Bold text
Hi all, I am aware that most people are very upto date here regarding wiki rules POV, COI, etc. Because of this have taken to reading them with interest and while doing so, and looking at the research done on the physiological effects of TM, have grown concerned how these should might be in conflict of wiki rules.
For example if we use the prominent research - quoted in the article a number of times: Am J Hypertens (2005) 18, 88–98; doi: 10.1016/j.amjhyper.2004.08.027 A randomized controlled trial of stress reduction in African Americans treated for hypertension for over one year*
Of it's authors Robert H. Schneider1, Charles N. Alexander1,2,3,4,5,6, Frank Staggers2,3, David W. Orme-Johnson1, Maxwell Rainforth1, John W. Salerno1, William Sheppard3, Amparo Castillo-Richmond4, Vernon A. Barnes5 and Sanford I. Nidich1 At the time of writing only 2 of its 10 authors were not working for MUM - of these one is closely associated with TM and the other completed his PHD thesis at the university. All of the others are/were at that time members of the MUM faculty - from Physiology to Education.
AS TM is a registered trademark (registered to: licensed to Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation) and thus in WIKI - and indeed legal terms - a cooperate entity or at least part of a corporate entity. Can the article use research by the companies staff to support its effectiveness? It is certain that we will need to mention this every time it occurs in the article - that the "research was conducted by TM employees - but can we reasonably use it at all under wiki reliable sources/COI. I shall check the rest of the research this week -. Thoughts? NB It is interesting to note that the various authors but for one - at the time did not mention their association to MUM. can anyone confirm if they were members of the faculty at the time or did this occur after this very positive research? It maybe worth chasing up with Am J Hypertens so that this is included/understood. Having been involved in the peer review process I personally unstood - at least in Europe that such declarations should be made - I am assuming an oversight. Really2012back ( talk) 02:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Edit: Apologies it seems that TM, MUM, etc, etc are actually all trademarks and belong to Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. It would thus be this legal entity and its associations that we should be concerned with under WIKI guidelines. Sorry. Really2012back ( talk) 02:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Alas Olive you are incorrect - which is unusual you are normally so well aware of wiki guidlines. MUM is part of Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation and indeed a Trademark of this corporation - this is stated on the MUM website and I have qouted it below. they are thus both part of the same legal intity - an incorperated intity indeed. WIKI says this by the way.
"Material published by a trading organisation is a view of how that organisation looks on itself however it will also have a marketing component and may lack neutrality. If this material is used it should carry a caveat to indicate this risk and should be corroborated with independent reporting if possible. The accounts and notes to the accounts for all publicly listed companies are required to have been independently audited and will contain a statement to that effect, possibly with caveats considered significant by the auditors. Smaller companies and partnerships which are not publicly listed may have audited accounts. These accounts should provide a reliable view as to the financial health of the organisation however this is subject to the accounting principles applied, which should be identified in the notes. Due to the specialised skills required to assess financial health this material should not be used in isolation, a more acceptable judgement of the organisation can be obtained from investment analysis conducted in some segments of the business press, stock markets and significant investment vehicles. It should be noted that in some cases these assessments may be confidential. Any judgements in Wikipedia with regard to trading organisations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used.
Cite peer-reviewed scientific publications and check community consensus Scientific journals are the best place to find primary source articles about experiments, including medical studies. Any serious scientific journal is peer-reviewed. Many articles are excluded from peer-reviewed journals because they report what is in the opinion of the editors unimportant or questionable research. In particular be careful of material in a journal that is not peer-reviewed, or one that reports material in a field different from its usual focus. (See the Marty Rimm and Sokal affairs.)
The fact that a statement is published in a refereed journal does not make it true. Even a well-designed experiment or study can produce flawed results or fall victim to deliberate fraud. (See the Retracted article on neurotoxicity of ecstasy and the Schön affair.)
Honesty and the policies of neutrality and No original research demand that we present the prevailing "scientific consensus". Polling a group of experts in the field wouldn't be practical for many editors but often there is an easier way. The scientific consensus can be found in recent, authoritative review articles or textbooks and some forms of monographs.
There is sometimes no single prevailing view because the available evidence does not yet point to a single answer. Because Wikipedia not only aims to be accurate, but also useful, it tries to explain the theories and empirical justification for each school of thought, with reference to published sources. Editors must not, however, create arguments themselves in favor of, or against, any particular theory or position. See Wikipedia:No original research, which is policy. Significant-minority views are welcome in Wikipedia, but must be identified as minority views and not given the same depth of coverage as the majority view. The views of tiny minorities need not be reported. (See Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View.)
Make readers aware of any uncertainty or controversy. A well-referenced article will point to specific journal articles or specific theories proposed by specific researchers. Really2012back ( talk) 03:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that is simply not good enough Olive, we would need independent confirmation of this - a publicly available financial report might do. Never-the-less there is a clear legal relationship. Your university system is much different to much of Europe. It is still possible for a University to be accredited and still part of a corporate entity. It is unlikey that this is not the case here - why on earth would a public company license a trading name - which is used with reserve to something that it did not have connections with.
"Any serious scientific journal is peer-reviewed.", and those are the peer reviewed studies and journals that can be included in this article." Indeed, but as I highlighted The fact that a statement is published in a refereed journal does not make it true." and "Cite peer-reviewed scientific publications and check community consensus"
However, we might be able to use it but must follow wiki guidelines already mentioned plus these: " "Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used."
So, we will no doubt have to return to my original suggestion and note the authors connection with the corporate trademark in question TM. I know, it's a pain each time but we must, as you always point out - keep strictly to wiki rules. Really2012back ( talk) 03:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you TG - so for confirmation, you will be able to point us to the publicly available accounts to confirm this? As you always say, original research is discounted in WIKi - this would of course be necessary to prove. Equally, the fact that they are all registered tradmarks - even if that is for protective resons does indeed show a connection? Or can you provide examples elsewhere in wiki were this has happened? Really2012back ( talk) 14:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Olive. It is interesting that you cite that wiki says varifiability rather then "truth" and I agree - however, WIKI is very exact regarding, claims made by and research about, companies. It states:
Any judgments in Wikipedia with regard to trading organizations should be explicitly referenced and caveated with comments as to the reliability and range of sources used.
Given that a lot of the research cited in this article was conducted by staff of MUM then, under these guidelines, while it would be ok to quote it, we would need to add a caveat regarding the association of the researchers to MUM. Something which was not made clear for example on the articles submission - in the case of the example I have given. I am not saying that staff at MUM are wrong to conduct this research - given the associations I would expect it, and lets be honest, researchers try to do research in things in which they are interested, so this is not unique. However, because this is a commercial product it is important, within the context of this entry, to make this association clear. What is problomatic for me is how to comment on this without prejudicing that research either way in the minds of the reader. Really2012back ( talk) 11:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Must be Olives influence, but you know I was thinking this opening sentence is a tad "unwieldy" and indeed incorrect.
Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of a meditation technique introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
Surely it would be better to say: Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of Maharishi Vedic Development Corporation, a multinational, multi-million dollar company chaired by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
Apologies Olive you are correct and again my mistake: It should be Trademark of Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation. All rights reserved. See, you are a good influence on me :-) I qoute from the TM website:
® Transcendental Meditation, TM, TM-Sidhi, Maharishi Ayur-Veda, Maharishi Ayurveda, Science of Creative Intelligence, Maharishi, Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, Maharishi Global Construction, Maharishi Yoga, Maharishi Yagya, Maharishi Vedic Astrology, Maharishi Jyotish, Maharishi Gandharva Veda, Maharishi Vedic Approach to Health, Maharishi Vedic Vibration Technology, Maharishi Instant Relief, Instant Relief, Maharishi Rejuvenation, Maharishi Rasayana Program, Maharishi Vedic Management, Maharishi Corporate Development Program, Consciousness-Based, Maharishi Vedic University, Maharishi Vedic School, Maharishi Vedic Center, Maharishi Ayur-Veda School, Maharishi Ayur-Veda University, Maharishi Ayur-Veda College, Maharishi Ayur-Veda Foundation, Maharishi Ayur-Veda Medical Center, Maharishi University of Management, Maharishi School of the Age of Enlightenment, Maharishi Medical Center, Maharishi Vedic Medical Center, Maharishi Medical College, Maharishi Vedic, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, Maharishi Vedic Psychology, Maharishi Self-Pulse, Maharishi Heaven on Earth, Maharishi Center for Excellence in Management, Maharishi Vedic Management, Maharishi Master Management, Natural Law Based Management, Maharishi Corporate Revitalization Program, Maharishi Global Administration through Natural Law, Maharishi Vedic Development Fund, Thousand-Headed Purusha, Maharishi Thousand-Headed Purusha, Maharishi Purusha, Purusha, Thousand-Headed Mother Divine, Mother Divine, Ideal Girls' School, 24 Hour Bliss, Spiritual University of America, Breath of Serenity, Maharishi Amrit Kalash, Maharishi College of Vedic Medicine, Vedic Science, Maharishi Vedic Science, Maharishi Vedic Observatory, Vastu Vidya, Maharishi Vastu, Time Zone Capital, Council of Supreme Intelligence, Prevention Wing of the Military, are registered or common law trademarks licensed to Maharishi Vedic Education Development Corporation and used under sublicense.
Clearly as a registered trademark we must make sure that it is understood firstly, that it is a registered TM and secondly - and correctly - who to. We don't want the wrath of TMs legal department down us :-) My apologies. NB Query, I have to ask - curiosity and all that - the registered trademark "24 Hour Bliss" what "product" is that? Sounds intriguing?
TG said in the section regarding Physiology.
"TM-Sidhi program, which by the way doesn't offer the ability to fly"
I'm afraid TG this confirms my fear that you may not be the best person to comment on this article or indeed edit it.
From the TM website: One aspect of the TM-Sidhi program is called Yogic Flying. During the first stage of Yogic Flying, the body lifts up and moves forward in short hops. http://www.tm.org/sidhi/index.html
This of course leaves the question, what happens in stage two and three. Luckily, MUM was able to answer this, along with some of your leading academic staff including John Haglin, physicist, MUM academic staff member and former candidate for presidency of the USA. This he did on this video where he states, along with other members of the MUM academic team, that TM practitioners will/have reached stage 3 of yogic flying which will/has allowed them to fly 60, 000 feet in the air. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHwhGUo90jw The references are fully WIKI compliant. Really2012back ( talk) 13:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
lol, TG, you know I promise I will leave you inpeace soon. Infact the rest of the day is yours. I shall sit here and listen Haitink's Beethoven cycle, then mediate - honest! :-) Peace my friend Addition, perhaps you are right in your sugestion regarding other meditation. If you can come up with a way of doing it with-out me having to do any other work per your suggestion? Really2012back ( talk) 16:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)-
Hi TG, as you know I wasn't going to comment further on the article but as a final note, that suggestion sound very reasonable - not sure about including the research ref TM V Simple relaxation - as simple relaxation is not a mediative technique and might muddy the waters a bit. However, perfectly good when speaking only about TM. However, will leave it in your capable hands: Peace. 20:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC) Really2012back ( talk)
I may come to regret jumping in here but...
Having spent the last 2-3 days reading through ALL of the archived Talk pages (and yes, I'm exhausted :-), I couldn't let Olive's statement "...The article is about the TM technique, a trademarked name for a meditation technique, and thats all... " stand without a comment.
In the early days of this Talk, there was a repetition, over and over, by Sethie, that this article is NOT simply about the technique of TM but in fact was about the entire movement. This was, IIRC, agreed upon at the time. When did this change? Clearly, a quick scan of the current introduction indicates that the change happened, perhaps as a result of the gradual dropping-out of those "opposed" to the TM movement.
Please point me to the Talk page where this shift in focus was agreed upon in a consensus. I am concerned that this may have been a (possibly subconscious) attempt to eliminate the opposing viewpoint, through a "shift in venue" that limited the article to the technique, which is much less open to criticism.
Please prove me wrong...
ACushen ( talk) 20:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I do recall that a split was suggested by a commenter as a result of an RfC. I don't recall that this specific issue was recommended and "consensussed" (not that it's a word, but... :-) to be split. My apologies. I will go back and review the Talk pages in question. Thanks. ACushen ( talk) 03:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)