This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
Why is there no description of how transcendental meditation is actually performed?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.61.51 ( talk)
If TM is derived from the Vedic tradition, the mantras used cannot be copyrighted. Since the procedure section is actually *absent* from the Procedure section here, I propose this information be included. Unless someone can provide documentation of the purported copyright? Naturezak ( talk) 01:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
For discussion of issues underlying the tag Dreadstar † 19:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Josha for making this distinction. My point wasn't about the whole article but about specific facts concerning the actual procedure and technique that only TM teachers would have, and for which we needed to use official TM web-sites. Your phrase, "which have to evaluate the organization and its products" and especially key word "evaluate" seem important. Wikipedia indicates references to self publication is ok under certain circumstances WP:SELFPUB. So as I understand it, in the intro.of the article speaking about the actual technique itself and the procedures would be ok since this requires information no one but the TM teachers would have in any kind of really accurate way, and nothing is gained for example by saying , one sits with the eyes closed for 23 minutes instead of twenty, but speaking about the effects the technique has , as in for example the research requires a neutral reliable, verifiable source. I may have not made that a clear distinction. I think we have really "sweated" through the article looking for reliable sources over time. There have been numerous discussions to that point so I think what's there is reliable, but you made an important point and distinction, I thought.( olive 13:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC))
I want to make a addition "In his book Flim-Flam!, James Randi expressed his doubts about the pro-TM research in existence at the time". Since this might be a controversial change, I wanted to discuss it here. Eiler7 00:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Eiler.... some thoughts
Peer-review AND the reputation of the publication itself is a generally accepted method, and i think the word general is important here, for acceptance of research studies in the scientific community. This opinion isn’t just held by a few people but is generally accepted. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t heated discussion in the scientific community about the complete and total reliability of all peer-reviews or that good papers are rejected or poor papers accepted. However the concern here can’t be on a discussions of peer-review in the entire scientific community, but rather on what can be used in Wikipedia as a way of defining what is reliable and verifiable. In Wikipedia, the standard for reliability for cited research is peer-review, and as has been mentioned, the publication itself. Wikipedia on Peer-review:
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable publications in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research
Although one could argue these points either in the scientific world in general or in Wikipedia, and the arguments may be legitimate, the standard that Wikipedia editors generally should use and have to rely on is peer-review and quality of publication as Wikipedia states. Arguments could go on forever about the reliability of peer review as I know they have, but peer-review coupled with the “established literature” defines acceptance by Wikipedia standards.
Randi's book is outdated - 30 years is pretty outdated, and the research has been superceded by more recent research. I am wondering why you don't look for more recent research to support your claims.( olive 14:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC))
This debate has been such an education for me, I almost hate to see it end! Thanks, guys. I think when all is said and done, the TM article(s) will win the prize for the most rigorously and thoroughly researched article(s) on Wikipedia! Do any other articles receive so much constant attention? Sueyen 19:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe that many criticisms in Randi's book still are valid, but I understand the hesitation of citing a 30 year old source. However, I am surprised that the Alberta study which reviewed meditation research, specifically including TM research, is not included. It found that there are a number of issues with methodology of the research so that little if any conclusions can be drawn as to its benefits. Here is a link to the study: http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf It is peer reviewed and a much better source than the Randi source. I suggest a discussion of this study be included. Judyjoejoe ( talk) 01:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Aksefgh As you will notice this article has been tagged as controversial and as such editors are expected to discuss any contentious material on the talk pages before adding to the article. The material you added is as the archived discussions might indicate very contentious and as well you add the material without citing a source. I have deleted the material and put it here for now. To be added to the article it should have verifiable, reliable references and should as well be discussed in terms of WP:WEIGHT(olive)
Material deleted from article:
Different religious groups, especially certain Christians, see TM as another dangerous branch of spiritualism, where one is drawn into a world of delusion not unlike the life an initiate of a cult lives. Certain people believe that the repeating of Mantras invokes evil spirits and the deliberate emptying of one’s mind leaves it vulnerable to possession by these spirits, which is why adherents feel an inner change. There are various examples of those who at first found TM as a method that achieved the desired results who later suffered ‘nervous breakdowns’, severe depression and found themselves delving into the occult.
Regarding TM-effect on cognitive function: Chalmers did not respond to the Canter/Ernst study in Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift but to an not mentioned editorial of Canter on BMJ. -- Josha52 13:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Davids website is a "only" website. Is it allowed in WP to use it as a source and point of view? -- Josha52 18:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, think I try it in german WP too. -- Josha52 21:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me like the page should be restructured. I would first like to read what TM is about, then about its history. I think the research review should be last of these three. Piechjo 09:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look at Wikipedia's featured articles you see that they are structured diffrently starting with an overview and ending with more specific details. I wanted to know more about TM since it has been in the Finnish media due to David Lynch's promotion visit. I was curious to know more about TM and its connection to religion. There's something about it but it seems hidden and pretty vague. In some parts it feels like this article is made like an advert, or maybe it's just the TM way of talking. Whatever works in the Vedic world may not work in Wikipedia. First things first, alright? Piechjo ( talk) 18:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
My take on it anyway.( olive ( talk) 21:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC))
I appreciate different outlooks and ways of expressing oneself. I believe TM can work - that you can develop a technique to practise happiness and emotion. It feels to me like this article differs in its tone and setting from most encyclopaedia articles. One thing to improve it could be to rearrange the sections. I suggest the following:
There should be some changes within the sections accordingly. Piechjo ( talk) 10:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Several of the major editors to this article admit to being associated with Maharishi and his organization, and in my opinion they are consistently slanting this article to their POV. I request evaluation of this by third-party editors, and if there is consensus on it, I will attempt to re-write the article to adhere to WP:NPOV. My previous attempts to do so met with resistance from the editors concerned, hence the problem. Please consult talk Archive12 for past discussions on the matter, and the immediately above section seems relevant as well. Michaelbusch ( talk) 20:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you explain what you think is not NPOV? It seems to be an article about a religion, and as such, should be mainly a description of the beliefs. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
These are the suggestion:
At any rate dealing with these issues will go a long way to removing POV language. I want to mention that both TG and I, and other editors as well have spent a fair amount of time on the different TM articles to remove less than laymen friendly language.There are however numerous editors to consider who have contributed over several years of time and this has been a highly controversial article so and one can't just hack away at articles that other editors have spent a lot of time with.We may however be in position to make the kind of changes that will shorten the article and remove less than acceptable language. I am around today so could do some or all of the editing I have suggested . Then we can see where we are in terms of the article. I won't begin of course, without consensus.( olive ( talk) 17:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy, Olive: you don't seem to understand WP:COI. You should not be editing this page. You have conflicts of interest, and you admit them. That much is good. But you continue to edit the article. As I explained above, the lead is not the only problem. Please let others edit the article instead of you. I would re-write it myself, but I'm on vacation and not online much. Michaelbusch ( talk) 22:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
...are not barred from participating in articles and discussion of articles where they have a conflict of interest, but must be careful when editing in mainspace. Compliance with this guideline requires discussion of proposed edits on talk pages and avoiding controversial edits in mainspace.
Martin, Olive: I am not trying to harass or offend anyone. I apologize if I have given that impression. I am trying to get this article into a form that avoids the subtle NPOV issues I described above. With respect, given their admitted COIs, I don't think TimidGuy or Olive are capable of giving the article objective treatment - I do not refer just to the recent edits, but to the entire history of the article. This is simply due to their point-of-view: because the required edits are subtle, they will most likely be missed by anyone with any strong bias, no matter how objective they try to be. Olive, you are correct that you have tried to explain your edits, but again, I am not saying there is anything blatantly bad with the article - only that it is subtly slanted. I probably edit articles related to my research the same way. Michaelbusch ( talk) 00:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
@Michaelbusch: As olive mentioned WP does NOT forbide editing while being an expert in a field. But it IS forbidden to mob someone out by unproven statemets as not being "capable of giving the article objective treatment". Second: Not every expert is automatically incapable of being neutral. If this would be the case any scientific writing must be doubted. Third: If you see possibilities to enhance an article, fine! If you are editing in a manner which is in tune with WP’s rules everybody would be thankful. Since the more are helping the less the others have to do. Fourth: One of the rules are: If a lemma is controversal (and there is no doubt that this lemma is) one should NOT start editing without any discussion. Fifth: The older an article the more difficult to rewrite in a whole.
Therefore some techniques have been proven to be practical: Start with the (discussion of the) structure. Since most of the time the material is long time online it does no big harm to an article when some paragraphs come into a new order. As soon the structure is consens, start right away with (the discussion of ;-) ) the first paragraph: Show your alternative, discuss it, and finally replace. Then the next, then the next. (The intro should be handled last, out of logical reasons.)
Every other method, esp. replacing the article in one stroke, is leading to a mass and conflicts with important WP-rules: since naturally there will be many discussion points afterwards, and it is very difficult to discuss all at once.
The more your work is proven as neutral and the more you show up with a broad sense for reality (means: not everything which is real is described by natural sciences, and yet it has its place in Wikipedia) the more everyone will be glad to see a further Wikipedia expert in the field. Because: It is fun to write. But it is not so much fun to defense an article from POV. And be sure: Most, absolutely most edits here were necessary because of the need for POV-DEFENSE: subtle statements, subtle connotations, subtle but totally subjective points of critics NOT because of scientific reasons but because of reasons of Weltanschauung: "We don’t like indian stuff, therefore TM is bad." "We don’t like people who have a global concept, therefore TM is bad". "We don’t like something which does not fit into our purely physical view of the world, and therefore TM is bad." And so on.
I for myself will not show up very often, since I am German and not perfect in English. But I am learning from what is going on here. Be slow. There is NO need to hurry in Wikipedia. Take into consideration that everybody else also does this job in its free time. Means: Give those who are envolved the time they need to react.
Good luck. -- Josha52 ( talk) 14:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sounds acceptable. For my apologize: The article went through many offences of those who are, out of whatever reasons, against TM. Therefore those who wish honestly nothing else then a neutral text are a bit sensitive as soon a new offence seems to start. – Anyway: Try to win the confidence of those who were engaged here. Therefore the procedure I layed out is a practical way: at least for the first big stepps. Another procedure could be: Write the article offline, publish it on your user page and ask for general oppinion. And then follow the discussion for implementing piece by piece. – See: There is NO reason to hurry. If a Lemma is complex and controversal (and this is) discussion IS needed. That this could "weary" you and would "clutter the talk page with at least several megabytes of verbage" is NO argument to avoid discussion. Take a deep breath: and start slowly ;-) -- Josha52 ( talk) 11:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
@Michaelbusch: Saw now a bit of the earlier discussions here (February-April 2007). Wondering a bit. Points around "pseudoscience" don’t seem to be of any relevance here: from whatever side. Because: One thing is the TM technique. Its results have to be described with the best sources available – period. Its theory has to be layed out by its founder has to be layed out – period. This is already well done. The other thing are the mental experiments how to understand its effectivness: all the theories which came up year by year. Fine! Describe the most important of them as a claim of those who establish these theories – and if there are relevant sources who have another theory, also fine: describe them. But: The only one who can decide whose theory is most feasible is the reader and NEVER the author. Not the author has to determine something as "pseudoscience" or "not pseudoscience", but only and ONLY the reader.
See: A lot of things which happen during TM and afterwards are a thing of their own, because they are new phanomena. Means: These things are not in opposite to any old belief, may it scientific of religious or whatever. Therefore the process of building an explanation for these new phanomena is still underway. TimidGuy, olive and all the others know this. Therefore they do NOT say in the article "This is because of ...", but they say: "The researcher think that the reason for this could be ..." And that’s fine! The researchers think so actually! And therefore the article has to mirror this: WITHOUT any comment and WITHOUT any valuation. And if there are relevant sources who have another explanation: fine! Mirror it too! But again without any comment and without any valuation. What I and you and others think of it – irrelevant. We are only the authors of a neutral encyclopädia.
Ok, let’s see, what your suggestions are. -- Josha52 ( talk) 12:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Michaelbusch, I see that you used slightly different wording in the public post, which may be misleading:
Talk:Transcendental Meditation several of the major editors to this article admit to being associated with Maharishi and his organization, the founders and marketers of Transcendental Meditation. See also the request for comment logged on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
It makes it sound like I'm involved in marketing TM. And by the way, it's not clear in what sense I"m associated with Maharishi, unless you would say that because I use a Macintosh computer I'm associated with Steve Jobs. And your use of "admit to" makes it sound like I've concealed something and then admitted to it. I volunteered the info early on that I practice Transcendental Meditation and that I'm on faculty at Maharishi University in Fairfield, Iowa. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Michaelbusch. I don't know in what sense you would say that Maharishi University of Management is run by Maharishi. It's run by a president and board of trustees, and administratively by an executive vice president and a chief administrative officer. Maharishi lives in Holland. The university is in Fairfield, Iowa. Many organizations have been founded in his name. Maharishi University of Management is one of them. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Since I have not heard from anyone except TimidGuy, and because everyone pretty much agreed that the lead could be changed, I have gone ahead and edited that part of the article to hopefully be more user friendly.I'll wait a few days for other editors to respond since we are going into a holiday period in the US, and if there is still no response, I'll continue editing with the view that no one has objections.( olive ( talk) 14:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)) While we're at it moving the research section to later in the article may be more neutral. As per earlier discussions with Piechjo, I'll do that as well.( olive ( talk) 16:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC))
«The Transcendental Meditation technique is a component of what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi terms Maharishi Vedic Science»:
This says IMHO that there is objectively something of which TM is objectively part of: if you want so "with Maharishi or not". The sentence is informing the reader that Maharishi is calling this "something" "Maharishi Vedic Science": without any question that this something existed before (could it not be inventend by Maharishi?), and without any question that TM is really part of it (if it existed really before - could it not be that TM was included afterwards?). If you read this from an outside point of view may be you get the feeling as if you do not have any chance to disagree in any way: It IS so - period.
Let’s have a look into the german formulation: «Combined with these techniques and propagated by the organisation are esoteric teachings, the so called Maharishi Vedic Science, which amongst other things includes doctrines of architecture, astrology, music and education.»
I am NOT happy with this "esoteric" thing. But if we look into Maharishi Jyotish or Maharishi Ghandarva Ved or Maharishi Sthapathya Ved we have to acknowledge that from an outside point of view these things look as if being esoteric. What about "spiritual teachings"? Or "spiritual and pracitcal teachings"?
Please see my post more as a question then as a defintive point of view. May be I learn out of this that the german formulation is POV and the english one neutral. -- Josha52 ( talk) 20:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
A sensible point. I've made the recommended modification, including the term "esoteric" which is indisuputable; in English usage, the term encompasses "spiritual teachings". Naturezak ( talk) 03:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
At all: The only point I have to "critisize" ist this:
The original sentence says IMHO that there is objectively something of which TM is objectively part of. The sentence is informing us: Maharishi is calling something as "Maharishi Vedic Science".
There seems to be no question that this something existed before (could it not be inventend by Maharishi?).
And there seems to be no question that TM is part of this something (if it existed really before - could it not be that TM was included afterwards?).
If you read this from an outside point of view may be you get the feeling as if you do not have any chance to disagree in any way: It IS so - period.
Think that this is an example of those "subtle" POVs which are possibly (!, I am german and can’t understand subtle contexts as you) part of the text and to which Michael was referring to.
Whatever corection may come out of this is fine: for the case there is need of an correction. -- Josha52 ( talk) 14:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy, think you interpreted my thought in a correct manner. The current version — «Along with teachings of architecture, astrology, music and education, the Transcendental Meditation technique is a part of the Maharishi Vedic Science first developed by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and taught by him and his organization» — is reflecting what I thought to be better in quite a good manner. Sure, TM is the practical aspect and other things are the theoretical aspect. But: I think for a "normal" reader this sounds much to complex and somehow too academic and for my feeling not encyclopadic.
If there would be a easy way to change the order and if you do not mind to delete the "first" (think, "developed" makes clear enough that he M. is the source of all this) I would say: betterment in the sense of WP achieved. Like this: «Transcendental Meditation is a part of the Maharishi Vedic Science developed by Maharishi, along with teachings of architecture, astrology, music and education.» Decide you if it is necessery to repeat often Maharishi’s full name and the TM "technique": It seems to me important that it is once and again said like this, but may be not always. -- Josha52 ( talk) 08:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
What about "formulated"? I do not think that this intro is the location for going to deep in which sense it was timeles knowledge and in which sense M. rearranged the whole thing, restructured, commented it and made it complete again out of scattered details. This should be the theme of the article on MVS itself. -- Josha52 ( talk) 12:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Hhm. Nice! Now I went to tm.org and read: "Maharishi first introduced the Transcendental Meditation technique to the world 50 years ago. Since that time, he has revived many other practical programs based on the knowledge of the ancient Vedic tradition of India. You can take advantage of these programs now, even before you learn the Transcendental Meditation technique." This we find under the headline "Explore Related Programs".
Think that this shows that olive could be right: that it is not necessary to mention MVS here.
My question is: What is important? That the reader gets at least a feeling that there is "more behind"? Has WP deliver this information to him? may be WP MUST deliver it in a way, more then with some links in the bottom line of the page? Or is it the other way round advertising IF WP is putting such informations into this intro? Puh ... difficult!
In the german version decision is easier because there strong revert professionals think that the article should show the whole thing. (Well, we do not yet have any article on MVS and so on, therefore - understandable). -- Josha52 ( talk) 16:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As per discussions I have begun to edit for POV. This is a first pass on this section and I'm sure more can be done. We do have to be careful to hold on to the meaning, so there may be times when language is particular to definition of a specific state and no other words will do . I used a format with bold to highlight the levels of consciousness. This may not be appropriate so please change if not.( olive ( talk) 20:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC))
Hi olive, one thing I see: "Maharishi’s theory of enlightenment". Is ok for the case that this is a theory’s name. But this isn’t. Then it is not ok, because: It claims "elightenment" as something which is for all the readers self-evident. But there are many opinions which say that something like "enlightenment" does not exist at all. Therefore some other wording should be found (IMHO ;-) What about "theory of consciousness"? Or you make one sentence more, like this: "According to Maharishi normal state of consciousness has the potential to evolve to what he calls enlightenment. He sees seven major states ..." (or so). -- Josha52 ( talk) 20:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Fred Travis can't be considered either an objective source, nor a mainstream one. His arguments connecting electrophysiology to phenomenological states is not widely accepted, and therefore his research shouldn't be used to explain TM theory. What I heartily propose is taking a selection of the yogi's writings, and then have this followed by a lay paraphrase prepared by a Wiki editor. Naturezak ( talk) 17:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
A possible version to follow "Procedure" Feel free to edit or discard just an idea and am not attached.( olive ( talk) 16:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Theoretically, Transcendental Meditation is a technique that helps to bring the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until the mind has moved beyond or "transcended" the subtlest forms of thought to what Maharishi terms, the experience of, the source of thought. Maharishi calls this experience, Transcendental Consciousness. He has labeled, Waking, Sleeping (dreamless), and Dreaming (REM) as the first, three states of consciousness, and Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state. He goes on to say that the ability to maintain the experience of the fourth state while living everyday life to be an “enlightened” state and terms this fifth state, Cosmic Consciousness. The movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
Naturezak. I reverted your changes, unfortunately losing a couple I agree with. Please understand that Wikipedia involves consensus and avoid making major changes without discussion. It's odd that you would start restructuring the article in the midst of an ongoing discussion of how to restructure it. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to run to lunch. But I really don't agree with the sequence. And I guess I do think it's not responsible to make such a change even as we were discussing the article. I really don't think higher states should go there. The suggestion on the table was to put history first. If you disagreed with that suggestion, you might have said something. And we had consensus among two editors and not objection from anyone else to first rewrite the section on higher states before beginning the restructuring. If you disagreed with that, you could have said something. Any chance you can wait a few days on this? TimidGuy ( talk) 19:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it's odd to put the theory of higher states of consciousness under the heading procedure. Higher states have nothing to do with the procedure of the practice. They are the result of long-term practice. And the proposal above was to have the history section precede the higher states section. I guess I'm going to revert again. Michaelbusch, please show me where anyone objected to the proposed restructuring discussed above, as well as the discussed timing of the restructuring. Please follow the discussion. And please don't say that three people objected when in fact no one objected. I am following Wiikipedia guidelines. There's an ongoing good-faith discussion of restructuring. A new editor, who apparently hasn't read that discussion, made major changes to the structure without participating in the ongoing discussion -- in fact, without any discussion at all. In a controversial article such as this it's important to discuss major changes. I've never reverted three times in an article, but this time it's warranted. I have very specific differences of opinion regarding the structure. It's unfortunate to edit war over a change that has nothing to do with content. Please see my edit warring as a strong objection to your understanding of process. And of course to a complete lack of understanding why you would structure the article in what i consider to be an odd way. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, did you delete a section? Why, when I revert, does it show that I'm adding 3,000 characters. I've got to do something else at the moment so don't have time to study the Diff. I can't understand what would account for 3,000 characters after just glancing at it. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Naturezak, how can I fail to acknowledge your rational when we haven't even discussed it? This was the first time you presented your rationale -- after reverting three times. I don't agree with it. Michaelbusch, if you had an opinion about the structure of the article, why didn't you state it in the previous discussion? If you read it, we were trying to address issues that you raised in your RfC. We were talking about restructuring the article as one means of addressing your criticism.
Dseer, your COI allegations are harassment. You posted 6,000 words of allegations on the COI noticeboard without giving a single mainspace diff showing problematic editing. No one has ever documented problematic editing on my part. Michaelbusch, please show problematic diffs, and please do so on the COI noticeboard rather than here. Dseer,please note the section that you cite is sourced to commercial web sites, and is something we need to address. But please do it in a separate thread. I would really appreciate if you would move that part of your comment. It's disruptive of this discussion. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Timidguy, I invite you to respon Naturezak ( talk) 22:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)d to the claim made by MichaelBusch that you should not be editing this article. Naturezak ( talk) 21:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose that "Theories of Consciousness" be merged into "Procedure," as they explain no aspect of TM except its operational goal. The new Procedure section might look like:
The goal of long- term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, and God Consciousness describe aspects of what Maharishi calls enlightenment, a state in which the human being is said to be fully developed, and which is the goal of the TM technique. The seventh state, Unity Consciousness, is said to be a state in which all of the aspects of life are seen as expressions of one's inner life.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
The yogi's assertion that TM is derived from ancient Vedic traditions should properly be moved to the head graf. These changes would fit into a streamlined site structure more mindful of NPOV, since they would provide fewer opportunities for editorialization. At present, the research portion of this article skews POV considerably; the quantity of citations serves to augment the reputation of TM, rather than to inform the reader. I propose the following structure:
0 Intro 1 Procedure 2 History 3 Research 3.1 Physiological effects 3.2 Medical studies 3.2 Cognitive studies 3.3 Funding and sponsors 4 Transcendental Meditation controversies 4.1 Relationship to religion and spirituality 4.2 Cult accusations 4.3 Kropinski v. WPEC 4.4 Butler/Killian vs. MUM 4.5 Consciousness and the unified field 4.6 Issue of cost 5 Intentional communities 6 References 7 External links 8 Further reading
I hope we can sustain a focused discussion here and quickly reach a reasonable consensus. Article protection in this case seems to be an outcome of stubborn refusal to participate in conversation... we can do better. Naturezak ( talk) 21:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
While I wrote this the entire discussion seems to have progressed remarkably but I will post this anyway. Perhaps there are solutions here.
I think the syntax edits are fine.
Would editors feel more comfortable with a section that just says "Theory" and that follows "Procedure". This way all of the material on the technique itself is sequenced indicating logical progression from actually learning the technique to the mechanics and outcomes of doing it. This heading eliminates some “unfriendly language”.
Once the links are removed and the cost of starting are removed there’s not much left in the section. I see that there is a new suggestion on the table about this section so I'll look at it. My above comments may be moot If the section remains I guess it is about controversy, so could go under that section. However I think we have to be careful about undue weight here so that must be considered in editing.
I realize this is long but we are dealing with multiple, major edits to this article. I am attempting to lay out solutions based on past discussions without resorting to an edit war (which seems to have already happened as I wrote). ( olive ( talk) 22:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Theory
Theoretically, Transcendental Meditation is a technique that helps to bring the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until the mind has moved beyond or "transcended" the subtlest forms of thought to what Maharishi terms, the experience of the source of thought. Maharishi calls this experience, Transcendental Consciousness. He has labeled, Waking, Sleeping (dreamless), and Dreaming (REM) as the first, three states of consciousness, and Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state. He goes on to say that the ability to maintain the experience of the fourth state while living everyday life is an “enlightened” state and terms this fifth state, Cosmic Consciousness. The movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
History
In 1957, at the end of a festival of "spiritual luminaries" Mahesh Yogi]] (or simply " Maharishi" to followers) inaugurated a movement to "spiritually regenerate the world. The official TM website indicates that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its inauguration including such well known personalities as comedian Jerry Seinfeld, Dolly Parton, Andy Kaufman, The Beatles, Beach Boys' Mike Love, Stevie Wonder, and Al Jardine, jazz musicians Eric Kloss and Charles Lloyd, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, actor Clint Eastwood, film director David Lynch, actor Hugh Jackman, inventor and author Itzhak Bentov, Scottish musician Donovan, actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham , and Deepak Chopra. Political leaders who practice TM include Joaquim Chissano
In the early 1970s, Maharishi launched a "World Plan" to establish one Transcendental Meditation teaching center for each one million of the world's population. Today, The Global Country of World Peace is the name of the organization through which the TM technique is taught.
( olive ( talk) 22:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy is once again disingenuous and since I'm accused of harassment I'm calling his bluff. If TimidGuy considers speaking the truth about his COI and article ownership "harassment", as all other attempts at resolution including the COI Noticeboard have failed, I encourage him to walk his talk and take me to arbitration where we can resolve this once and for all with appropriate penalties for the offenses.
The following is taken verbatim from: [4].
After much debate at the COI noticeboard, in response to concerns originally raised by Philosophus which I followed up on, it appears that there is a significant body of agreement among three expert, senior editors there, Durova, Tearlach and Athaenara, that WP:COI means what it says, and that it is not necessary to demonstrate anything more than an editor has or reasonably appears to have a Conflict of Interest. One does not have to also show that a given editor is not a "good editor", or that "bad things will happen if they don't edit the article" on the main page. Attempts to refute such "waffle defenses" are unnecessary and only muddy the water.
As Tearlach has stated in clarification: A basic report of COI just needs brief evidence of the relationship ("editor X is chief of Y's fan club - see Google/diffs/whatever"). And reams of "oh but everyone says I'm a good editor and Bad Things would happen if I stopped" waffle in defence are irrelevant. If such a relationship has been shown, editor X should follow the advice at WP:COI full stop."
Tearlach also said: "One possibility for cutting to the chase: do we need to get bogged down in discussions of whether an editor with a demonstrated COI is editing fairly? Seems to me that WP:COI is as much about being seen to avoid COI, as it is about actual proof/disproof that a known COI is biasing edits. I might be the most objective ever editor of the article on the hypothetical Tearlach Wonderful Products Inc of which I'm CEO, but there would always be some level of suspicion if I took a leading role in editing it: reason enough that I should stick to the Talk page so that propriety was seen to be observed.".
Durova said: "TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental mediatation-related articles. The particular reference in question appears to be published legitimately and appropriate as a reference source. I suggest an article content request for comment to settle the particular debate. I hope that resolves the problems, but in case it doesn't the likely alternatives are this: a user conduct request for comment and an eventual arbitration case, which would likely end in article paroles on TM topics. Another experimental option is community enforceable mediation."
Athaeanara said in follow up: Durova said: "TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental meditation-related articles." Given that this is the Conflict of interest noticeboard, a response like "Not sure why you're making this point" is not straightforward and intelligent. This section is about editors, you for example, and in fact you in particular, with, yes, clear and immediate conflict of interest issues which it would behoove you to take seriously. It is not about Mason's (or anyone else's) book. Wikipedia does not need another ream of paragraphs out of you, it needs you editing neutrally or not at all. No more long diatribes, no more changing the subject, no more disingenuity and smokescreens..."
Additionally, Ed Johnston noted the concern for the dearth of criticism was valid and was something to work on. And the header has been changed to note that "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents related to the application of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline: that is, situations where an editor appears to have a close personal or business connection with the article topic."
In summary, TimidGuy, such a COI relationship has been established for you in particular to the TM organization, as confirmed for you by three senior editors at the COI noticeboard whom I have quoted (resulting in clarification of header guidance to clarify who it applies to), and that there are no follow up statements by the other senior editors there supporting your position on why COI requirements don't apply to you because of the "good editor" defense you raised, and can also be shown for the other TMers in the original COI complaint in general, by Philosophus.
It's time you stop fantasizing, dissembling, and spreading misinformation about the decision about the problematic and damaging nature of your editing and ownership history on TM related articles, TimidGuy, and recuse yourself to an advisory role, the only appropriate role you have here now per Wikipedia standards. The issue has been fairly decided already, TimidGuy, you just won't accept the verdict. Otherwise, if you continue despite this warning to block attempts to make this article more NPOV as you have done in the past and if you refuse to take this "harassment" to arbitration, I suggest concerned editors consider taking you to arbitration to enforce the decisions of the COI noticeboard which you have ignored, so we can resolve this once and for all and get on with a more NPOV article. The only reason I haven't confronted you recently is there are so many TMers with COIs editing here backing you up it requires a body of neutral editors to make it worthwhile. Since you have exceeded your authorized role in editing on this article, I submit and will support a determination that more neutral editors do not need your agreement or consensus from TMers to proceed. -- Dseer ( talk) 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
IIRC, the yogic fliers claim that they fly as a result of this technique. Well, more like hop... using their leg muscles... but they CLAIM they can fly. Should this be noted in the article? Titanium Dragon ( talk) 00:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
recently changed.Is it ok as is?( olive ( talk) 18:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
I suggest using:
Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of a meditation technique introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The twice-daily practice involves closing one's eyes and sitting for twenty minutes without concentration or contemplation.
The clause "is said to be effortless" is not helpfully informative, and is redundant with the non-involvement of concentration. Naturezak ( talk) 19:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
consensus to combine with Theory
The goal of long- term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, and God Consciousness describe aspects of what Maharishi calls enlightenment, a state in which the human being is said to be fully developed, and which is the goal of the TM technique. The seventh state, Unity Consciousness, is said to be a state in which all of the aspects of life are seen as expressions of one's inner life.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
A combination of rewrites 1 and 2. Rewrite 2 removed by editor who wrote it as redundant and probably not usable.
Important to note that the theory itself is based, fundamentally, on the experience of Cosmic Consciousness(CC) in which Transcendental Consciousness has become a stabilized state even in everyday activity.This is said to be the state of enlightenment, the goal of the technique, so we should, I think include some simple explanation of CC. God consciousness and Unity Consciousness are in a sense extensions of CC, so some simple mention of them should be made to complete understanding of the connections of the different states.
Maharishi posits a theory of enlightenment, the long term goal of the TM technique, to be comprised of seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Meditation, theoretically, brings the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until what Maharishi terms, the source of thought is reached. Maharishi calls the experience of the source of thought, Transcendental Consciousness. He describes Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state, and says that the ability to maintain the experience of this fourth state while engaged in everyday activity to be a fifth, “enlightened” state, called Cosmic Consciousness. God consciousness, in which the practitioner is said to experience Cosmic Consciousness in addition to refined perception is the sixth state, and Unity Consciousness in which all aspects of life are said to be seen as expressions of one’s inner life, the seventh state. This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
No need to explain that theory is included in the section title; this is strongly implied by the actual content, as well as being neccesary for the procedural steps to be more clear than mere jargon would be. Please note that I have removed the contestable assertion "This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels;" is physiologically meaningless.
According to Maharishi's theory of enlightenment, there are seven levels of consciousness. The attainment of the highest of these is the long-term goal of TM.
The first three states -- "waking," "dreamless sleep," and "dreaming" -- are commonly known. Progressing through increasingly finer levels of thought, the activity of the mind next reaches what Maharishi identifies as the "source of thought," the experience of which is called "Transcendental Consciousness." When practitioners use TM to continue to experience this fourth state even during everyday activity, they are said to have reached an enlightened state called "Cosmic Consciousness." In "God Consciousness," the practitioner is said to experience Cosmic Consciousness augmented by refined perception. Finally, when through the use of TM the practitioner perceives all aspects of life as expressions of one’s inner life, they are said to have attained the seventh, highest state: "Unity Consciousness."
The TM technique is taught over four consecutive days. An introductory lecture is given on both the first and second days. The next day, the instructor conducts an interview of the student. On the fourth and final day, the instrucotr performs a brief ceremony before giving the student two hours of instruction in the technique. In subsequent sessions, the student practices the method, and the instructor provides clarification of correct technique.
IMPORTANT: This section includes NO information about what the practice IS. Therefore, this is "TEACHING" rather than "PROCEDURE." Naturezak ( talk) 03:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
seems more neutral than "states" of consciousness possibly because the word "states" has been more widely used in the TM literature. Levels however is not quite accurate . Levels generally implies discreet positions reached sequentially . Although the levels of consciousness as defined by Maharishi are "stabilized" in the order mentioned (TC, then CC,GC, and UC) they do not necessarily "develop" in this way, and in fact may develop simultaneously so "levels" may be too confining a term, and as I said not quite accurate.
( olive ( talk) 16:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC))
such as refined perception in GC and in UC, the awareness that the inner life now stabilized in CC now sees outer life as aspects of itself.( olive ( talk) 21:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC))
The first study I could put my hands on was ""The Physiology of Meditation: A Review. A Wakeful Hypometabolic Integrated Response," published in 1992 in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. The authors describe the subjective experience of being characterized as a "relaxed, blissful and wakeful state." (p 415) Later (p 420) the subjective experience of transcendence in those is described as "restful alertness." And the article says that this subjective experience "appears to be a patterned physiological response of overall decreased peripheral metabolism and activation in many of its features, including decreased whole body, muscle, and red cell metabolism, as well as decreaed plasma thyroid and adrenocortical hormone secretion. Electrophysiologically, increased galvanic skin resistance and/or decreased phasic skin resistance response, and decrease or disappearance of the EMG, frequently reported accompaniments of meditation, are also qualities consistent with rest. Other changes that may be described as extraordinary include alternation of the nature of intermediary metabolism by muscle and red cell; and phasic five-fold elevation of AVP."
So how about if we said something like this in the Procedure section: "During the practice of Transcendental Meditation, the individual experiences a state referred to as 'restful alertness,' in which the body exhibits characteristics of deep rest but the mind is relaxed but alert. The physiological characteristics of deep rest include a reduced metabolic rate and decreased hormone secretion." Whether we use this or not, the idea would be to characterize the subjective experience and then say that it affects the body. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, research shows that that the physiological changes in meditation, including EEG, aren't necessarily the same as relaxation. (By the way, earlier this week a meta-analysis of randomized, controlled trials was published showing that Transcendental Meditation reduces blood pressure whereas the studies on relaxation didn't show a reduction. I guess I'm not familiar with the word "hypobolically.") TimidGuy ( talk) 12:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC) I guess what I'm saying is that it seems appropriate to use "restful alertness" since many studies very specifically use that term to characterize a unique state of physiology. Seems like if it's in the sources, that's what we say. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Olive. Seems like we need to characterize the technique. Your version of Procedure had included this sentence: "This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels;" which Naturezak said is physiologically meaningless and which he deleted in his draft version. I'm finding sources that say something similar in order to show that it's not physiologically meaningless and that it may be a way of characterizing Transcendental Meditation. I was able to quickly find four good sources this morning which talk about the process of the mind settling down in meditation and the physiological correlates. (Also, they describe the differences between meditation and relaxation.) Basically just exploring ideas. And trying to think together how we might approach this while taking into account Naturezak's comments. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Sources comin' after lunch. In general, they characterize the subjective experience -- described in a variety of ways -- and then show the physiological correlates. That is, during meditation the person feels specific things happening -- the mind relaxing, sometimes experiencing awareness without an object of awareness, etc. And these experiences can be correlated with distinctive physiological states. Whether it's metaphorical or not, some sort of words need to be used to describe the experiences that are associated with these distinctive states of physiology. Might be getting in over my head here, since I'm only very vaguely familiar with the research. But will have some articles in hand after lunch. Again, all this by way of exploring here and thinking together how we might characterize the technique. Prompted by the sentence in Olive's version, but not necessarily using that sentence. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
This description is more what is needed. Needing explanation are:
There should be physiological or cognitive explanations of these features of TM practice, as opposed to physiological correlates. I'm familiar with Shear's book, although I do not recall such high-level explications in my reading of it. Feel free to reference page numbers; I have a copy on hand. Naturezak ( talk) 14:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The first two study physiological effects during the practice. The latter two are clinical applications that include discussion of the mechanism for the observed clinical effects. This discussion characterizes the practice in terms such as this: "During the TM technique, it has been reported that the ordinary thinking process settles down and a distinctive 'wakeful hypometabolic state' is gained."
So what's my point? I'm not sure. : ) Seriously, maybe these studies can help characterize the nature of the practice by offering solid sources that use specific language to characterize the practice and then, beyond that, show that the state of the physiology during TM is well understood, such that this characterization isn't just a "teaching" by Maharishi or merely a subjective experience, but rather a specific subjective experience that has been repeatedly reported and that has been understood empirically through via scientific study. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
There is potentially a gap, between what we can put into this article in terms of understanding the technique, and what we can’t according to the encyclopedic Wikipedia policies/guidelines. Perhaps you are asking, if I understand you correctly, is how does the mantra effect the movement of the mind to finer levels, what are these finer levels. In the performing and visual arts there are multiple exercises that use the brain's tendency, very simply put, 'cause I am no brain researcher but a performing arts, visual arts teacher...to shift "modes” if given the right stimulus. For example, and this is a superficial parallel to what happen with the mantra, if the so-called, "left-mode", functioning brain, the logical, critical, sequential- thinking brain is given meaningless words, or movement or language that is faster or slower than its usual functioning mode, the original mode will, as it were, tire of attempting to deal with this and give the “work” over to another mode to deal with, the whole brain mode, or what used to be called the "right brain-mode - a restful, non-critical, non sequential- thinking mode. Sanford Meissner's repetition exercises, Nickolaides' blind-contour drawing are examples of these but there are many. The mantra has no meaning. The left-brain mode won't deal with this for long so possibly a shift is made. The mantra also has vibrational qualities, which apparently effect a deeper profound response than a non-sense word used in an acting exercise would. But the parallel may be that the brain given something it can't think on, or produce sequential thought with, moves beyond logical-thinking mode to finer levels of the word/mantra. The brain in a sense allows the mantra to fade, and disappear because it can't connect logical thought to it. The brain naturally stops thinking in the left- mode way, as it were. I believe there is some research that has applied brain functioning to the arts in general, but I am not aware of any that applies to TM. The problem is we can't take that research and apply it here because we run into Original Research guideline. It’s an area I am very interested in because there seem to parallels to the arts. Maharishi has explained the place beyond thought as the creative source. Again, there is no research or material I know of that supports this. There are writers dealing with this topic in terms of understanding creativity, but again to take that information and connect it to TM is WP:OR. Unified Field Theory seems to parallel this. But again here on Wikipedia we can't make the kind of argument we could on a paper, discussing these parallels and the possibility that they are one and the same thing. We could quote other papers, and research if there was discussion of TM but not use this in the article ourselves. I realize this is a long harangue, and apologize, but this seems to me to be an important point you have raised. I also am not a scientist, but an artist, and tend to look in other place beside scientific research for sources. I'm not sure if there is a solution at this point in time, excepting material from Shear’s book and possibly brain wave research. I am not aware of research or papers dealing with these topics and TM. Maybe someone else is.( olive ( talk) 18:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC))
Comments:
I guess I'm confused. Your suggested rewrite of the section now titled Procedure and Theory included higher states. Naturezak, I guess you're saying that that remain intact but the research on higher states be in a separate article. In that it? In any case, it just seems that the most extraordinary claims in this article -- that one can experience transcendental consciousness during TM and eventually higher states during activity -- should be supported by research. That's the most unique thing about TM. Research has never been done on any other group experiencing higher states of consciousness. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Naturezak, I believe you're saying the same thing that I suggested in an earlier thread - in which I suggested we may not need to enumerate each of the three higher states, but just refer to it in a general way, as Fred Travis does in his research. And I'm pleased you feel that this particular research could go in the research section. Seems like we're agreed. So to summarize, we have a section titled theory and practice or procedure and theory that includes essentially drafts that you and Olive produced. This covers the discussion of the possibility of a higher state of consciousness. We have a pointer to the related section in the research section that talks about the research on the physiological and neurophysiological parameters of the practice, on the unique neurophysiological characteristics of the epochs of transcendental consciousness during a meditation, and the evidence that eventually these latter characteristics are also present in activity. This would be a rewritten, condensed, and more reader friendly version of what was already in the article. And please forgive me if I have misunderstood. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Use a condensed version?( olive ( talk) 19:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
A condensed version created many moons ago (with some recent editing) when there were concerns with the TM article over length. I think this is also a more reader friendly version.Any thoughts,comments.( olive ( talk) 20:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
In 1979, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the Transcendental Meditation technique together with the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI) could not be taught in New Jersey, public schools. The appellate court upheld the decision of a lower court that teaching the technique in the schools violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which creates a wall of separation between church and state. The court ruled that although not a theistic religion, TM/SCI falls within the legal definition of religion because it deals with issues of ultimate concern, truth, and other ideas analogous to those in well-recognized religions.
Since lawsuits are definitionally occasions of controversy, I believe they should be listed separated under the heading "Controversy." This has the added benefit of streamlining the article structure. Naturezak ( talk) 19:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I just can't see how I can budge on this. Note WP:Weight and a quote from that guideline,
An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
. Three lawsuits in 50 years barely deserves inclusion.A subheading signals importance equal to the subheading given a larger more prevalent topic such as cult or religion.The lawsuits use greater quantity of text than warranted relevant to other sections in the article. Three lawsuits in 50 years probably deserves a few lines. Using subheadings to signal importance compounds the problem, in my mind at least.( olive ( talk) 00:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
Comment: Links should be removed. They are not Wikipedia Compliant. I'm fine with price being in the first line. I do think that if cost does not contribute to advertising either does an explanation of what the cost "buys"... teaching of the technique , three days checking and a lifetime checking with any recertified TM teacher . Not to include this is a subtle POV. Then we can add material about TM teachers who have a problem with this cost. Should this be in controversy section .... not sure but maybe.( olive ( talk) 20:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
Comments: Agreement to move to external links from Timid Guy, Naturezak, Roseapple, Olive.( olive ( talk) 19:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
Suggested Structure:
0 Intro
1 Procedure and Theory
2 Development
3 Research
---3.1 Physiological effects
---3.2 Medical studies
---3.2 Cognitive studies
---3.3 Funding and sponsors
4 Transcendental Meditation controversies
---4.1 Relationship to religion and spirituality
---4.2 Cult accusations
---4.3 Lawsuits [Kropinski v. WPEC and Butler/Killian vs. MUM]
---4.4 Consciousness and the unified field
---4.5 Issue of cost
---4.6 Dissenting TMers [i.e., dissenting splinter groups e.g. TM Independent]
5 References
6 External links [w/Intentional communities]
7 Further reading
Comments: Don’t want to make it still more difficult here, but: Question is, how strict Wikipedia is a , let me say lexical encyclopedia. If it is, structure seems very ok for me. If it is not, one thing could be added: organisational aspects. I opposed long time to this argument in german WP. But today I am looking at it in a different way: from the viewpoint of the reader/visiitor of the article. Because: Many people who are googling TM are not only interested into what the TM techiques would be. But also in the question "what about the organisation behind it". They often even do not know that this organisation is called today "Global Country of World Peace". So I think today that it would be at least an act of kindliness to offer in such an article some more insight into the organisation/movement: may be with the information of "In details please see ...". So: I do not think that TM should be looked at primarily out of an sociological angle as some had argued here and in Germany. But on the other side without any doubt in the eyes of its founder and organisations it is a tool by which the world should be changed to a better. Somehow it feels as if this aspect is not covered enough here (again: in details, sure, there could be another article for that). -- Josha52 ( talk) 13:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Hhm. "Development" sounds as if there has been an evolution of TM. As far as I know there wasn’t. Waht to do? -- Josha52 ( talk) 18:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Would a shorter version be better. I also wrote a shorter version of this -refer to discussion , but again not attached o it. I feel the present History veers away from info.on the technique in too many places.( olive ( talk) 20:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
History
In 1957, at the end of a festival of "spiritual luminaries" Mahesh Yogi]] (or simply "Maharishi" to followers) inaugurated a movement he describes as one that would"spiritually regenerate the world". The official TM website indicates that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its inauguration including such well known personalities as comedian [[JerrySeinfeld] Dolly Parton, Andy Kaufman, The Beatles, Beach Boys' Mike Love, Stevie Wonder, and Al Jardine, jazz musicians Eric Kloss and Charles Lloyd, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, actor Clint Eastwood, film director David Lynch, actor Hugh Jackman, inventor and author Itzhak Bentov, Scottish musician Donovan, actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham, and [[Deepak Chopra. Political leaders who practice TM include Joaquim Chissano
In the early 1970s, Maharishi launched a "World Plan" to establish one Transcendental Meditation teaching center for each one million of the world's population. Today, The Global Country of World Peace is the name of the organization through which the TM technique is taught.
In 1941, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (b. Mahesh Prasad Varma) became a secretary to Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. Maharishi remained with Brahmananda Saraswati until the latter passed away in 1953. Although Maharishi was a close disciple, he could not be the Shankaracharya's spiritual successor since he was not of the Brahmin caste.
In 1955, Maharishi began teaching a meditation technique he later renamed Transcendental Meditation. In 1957, he began the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, India, on the concluding day of a festival held in remembrance of his deceased teacher. By 1958 Maharishi had begun the first of a number of worldwide tours promoting and disseminating his technique. In the early 1970s, Maharishi undertook to establish one TM teaching center for each million of the world's population, which at that time would have meant 3,600 TM centers throughout the world.
Since 1990, Maharishi has coordinated the teaching of TM from the town of Vlodrop, the Netherlands, through an organization he calls the Global Country of World Peace. This group reports that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its introduction.
Naturezak 03:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Points of clarification:
What about:
Maharishi has coordinated the teaching of TM from the town of Vlodrop, the Netherlands, through a country without borders he calls the Global Country of World Peace.
As the article is to concern only the topic, it would be inappropriate to include a list of practioners -- although their TM affiliation belongs on THEIR WP pages. Their practice of the method is completely independent of the method. What TimidGuy sounds to be advocating would be a new section, e.g. "TM in Pop Culture." Naturezak 16:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Both the cultural phenomenon and media attention to research seem to be notable enough to be included in this section, well sourced of course. Roseapple 22:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Both the "cultural impact" and "media attention to research" are unsuitable for this section. They are historical phenomenom related to TM, NOT examples of the phenomena which comprise the history of TM. It is easy enough to see that any mention of the "media attention" to research belongs in the first nut graf of the Research section... although we should see potential examples of that text before we spend too much time deliberating it. As for the cultural imapct of TM, this is speculative; complex; and invites POV abuses, so again, let's see proposed text before we more ourselves in a discussion of as-yet nonexistent rewrites. Naturezak 00:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned above in the "theories" discussion in my mind the TM technique is connected intimately to process, procedure and theory and some mention of that needs to be included . This section is once again about the connection of the technique to something else . Whatever our decisions are I believe we have to be consistent . If TheoRies section is removed so should this be . If not this section might be appropriate although Pagel's quote is not about TM but about the organization, and that should be looked at , I think. ( olive ( talk) 16:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC))
I really appreciate the fact that we're collaborating and coming to consensus on a number of points. But I'm worried that we'll forget what we've decided. So I want to start a summary in this thread.
In the thread on lawsuits, Naturezak didn't explicitly agree to a single heading, but I assume consensus since he himself edited his working draft of the outline to include this change.
Thanks, everyone. This represents significant progress. We can update this as we come to consensus on additional points. The next thing we may need to do is to create a sandbox for the new versions of the Procedure & Theory and Development (or History) sections. We keep getting confused where the proposed drafts are. Also, both Olive and Naturezak have separately written drafts of the Procedure & Theory section. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to thank Naturezak as a newer editor on this article for patiently wading through this and really considering every area. I really appreciate working with someone like this.( olive ( talk) 00:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
Things are starting to get muddled it seems so what about starting to write a new section for this with multiple variations.
In the meantime, I would like to summarize what has been said so far. Please add on what I forget to add.
This is just a start to cataloging our points.
I'd like to start writing something the next day or so as a starting point. Any other rewrite of this section could be posted here and we could start to look at all of the versions to see which contains what we want to have in the article. I would like to suggest we edit each others versions.... perhaps by by leaving the original intact, pasting a copy below the original, and adding edits there with explanation.Not sure this procedure will work but could we give it a try. Lets not feel attached to our versions . After all the original will be there intact. I feel we could talk forever but maybe its time to nail something down ( olive ( talk) 23:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC))
As I say, I'm only vaguely familiar with the research. But got some help from a friend who's more familiar with it. I hope this addresses your point. I can supply refs in the morning for each point if you like.
First of all, TM has been shown to promote statistically significantly greater decreases in oxygen consumption and CO2 production, decreases in heart and breath rate, and increases in galvanic skin response (GSR -- a marker of sympathetic tone) -- these may well be found to varying extents in controlled rest subjects (in resting non-TM subjects, in subjects practicing a variety of other relaxation techniques, as well as in practitioners of TM who served as their own controls during non-TM "simple rest" periods) -- but several peer-reviewed medical studies published in top journals have shown these measures to be quantitatively different enough (with statistical significance) to warrant reporting in the journals. This alone is sufficient to justify to make the point that a simple mental technique could elicit such a profound set of physiologic changes that achieves a more significant (deeper) hypometabolic state of rest than simple eyes closed resting, sleeping or practice of alternative stress reduction techniques -- a point which is remarkable, both medically and culturally.
But in fact TM has also been found to produce statistically significant and medically publishable qualitative differences between non-stylized "simple rest" and TM practice in the following biochemical markers:
Can you provide a source for the conventional understanding of relaxation and the physiological changes it entails? TimidGuy ( talk) 02:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Naturezak. I wonder about your deletion of the reference to the study in Current Hypertension Reports. How do you know it's not peer reviewed? I actually think this may be a good study to include. Also, it may not be appropriate to delete something because you think it's "statistically suspect." But of course we would need to give a proper citation, rather than the link to EurekAlert. Or maybe both, since Wikipedia does encourage "convenience links." TimidGuy ( talk) 16:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
We could get another opinion, perhaps on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. My understanding is that this is a prestigious journal. And I believe that a meta-analysis of peer-reviewed research is a source of the highest standard. The editor in chief is at Harvard Medical School. I believe this is the sort of source that Wikipedia desires. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Still curious how you know that it's not peer reviewed. For example, this source says it's peer reviewed. [7] I think you may be right, but I'd be interested to know, if you don't mind. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe the print edition was mailed out at the beginning of the month. But the web site hasn't yet been updated. I have a pdf. Here's a citation: "Stress Reduction Programs in Patients with Elevated Blood Pressure: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis," Current Hypertension Reports, Vol. 9, Issue 6: December 2007, pp. 520-528.
Certainly I'm open to discussion whether to include this reference in the TM article. Right now it almost doesn't seem necessary. It would likely only become relevant if we would ever want to make a distinction between the clinical RCTs on relaxation compared to TM. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss removal of apparently relevant, sourced content such as in this edit, before removing it. Thanks! Dreadstar † 02:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, he removed it without discussing. He only discussed it once I raised the issue, and didn't ever share his evidence that it's not peer reviewed. And certainly didn't explain how he knew it was "statistically suspect" without having seen the article. And he never did discuss his removal of two paragraphs of research on the long-term effects of Transcendental Meditation that were sourced to peer-reviewed research. [8] Seems like the removal of such sourced material would have deserved discussion and consensus.
But I shouldn't criticize. Naturezak has really helped focus attention on some important areas, and we've come to consensus on a number of things. If we can resolve our current discussion of how to characterize Transcendental Meditation, I think the article will be even stronger. It's been an interesting discussion and fascinating to have his perspective. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to both Dreadstar and Philosophus as experienced editors/admins for coming onto the TM article. We have been involved in complex and extensive discussions on changes to the article for several weeks. To have an editor, however well intentioned, add anything new to this article right now especially as happened, without discussion, is for me a distraction that takes time and energy away from completing the already weighty task of fixing up this article.I would like very much to be able to complete the changes now "on the table", before dealing with anything else. Any thoughts about having the article protected for awhile so we can carry on until present topics being discussed are dealt with.Thanks for help.( olive ( talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC))
The extensive discussion is not doing the work.The editors are, as I said. This article has been protected several times. It has been the scene of edit wars. This a contentious article.Making changes to this article requires consensus. Lets not pretend that any of these condition do not exist, and consensus is the Wikipedia guideline for dealing with this. Verifiable, reliable sources are the Wikipedia standard, and I intend to use those guidelines otherwise the sky is the limit and has been on what can be included in an article. Providing research to support statements in an article does not violate NPOV. Nor has there been consensus reached on where undue weight may be violated. I am certainly one who "talks" too much and I apologize for that.But I am also fed up with being misunderstood and of being accused all of manner of Wikipedia sins.So I try to explain as clearly as possible. Yes, we have talked about using a sandbox and I suggest we do that to avoid any "warring".I will support changes within consensus that are accurate in meaning, that are supported by reliable, verifiable sources and that do not violate undue weight.Thats the Wikipedia way. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!:0) ( olive ( talk) 07:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC))
By the way, Naturezak deleted a addition to the article that appeared to be appropriate. The manner for dealing with concerns he might have had given the climate surrounding this article would have been to follow the delete with a note on the talk pages.I respect Naturezak's boldness but one must also be aware of the climate. Dreadstar was merely following Wkipedia protocol. Please note the procedure outlined on the tag concerning contentious articles.( olive ( talk) 07:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC))
Here are some studies that show that the effects of TM are either quantitatively or qualitatively different from relaxation (see an explanation of the distinction in an earlier thread):
All of these studies are on Transcendental Meditation, even though the article title doesn't always indicate it. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Well said. Here, for example, is one of the abstracts:
The concentration of 13 neutral and acidic plasma amino acids was measured before, during and after either 40 min of control relaxation or 40 min of the process known as transcendental meditation (TM). An electro-oeulogram, electroencephalogram, and electromyogram were simultaneously monitored in these subjects. Increased phenylalanine concentration was noted during TM practice with no change during control relaxation; no difference between the groups of total time slept or sleep stage percent was observed. The stability of phenylalanine concentration in controls and lack of correlation of increased phenylalanine with sleep in the long-term practitioners seem to suggest a relationship of the phenylalanine increase to TM practice.
This study suggests that someone practicing Transcendental Meditation has changes to blood chemistry during practice that are not seen in control subjects during relaxation. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I question the relevance of the first graf; the inclusion of a list of prestigious research institutions, and a listing of the impressively high number of studies that have been conducted on this topic, seems to imply an endorsement of the practice and underlying theory which contradicts NPOV... certainly, these facts don't report anything about TM itself. Naturezak ( talk) 15:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the prestige-enhancing list of institutions from the first graf, and invite other editors to compose a more impartial introduction to this section, which explains the historical origins of research on TM, and *why* such research is conducted. Naturezak ( talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I will likely re add the material tomorrow unless a discussion gives rise to a consensus on another version.( olive ( talk) 01:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC))
I believe its time to let this section go. There is a lot of discussion about a section that may be insignificant. In future, I strongly suggest that deletion and addition given the climate of this article be subjected to discussion and consensus.( olive ( talk) 17:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
To clarify . I'm talking about the section and discussion on the section on research institutions.( olive ( talk) 17:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
In the thread on lawsuits, Naturezak didn't explicitly agree to a single heading, but I assume consensus since he himself edited his working draft of the outline to include this change.
I have re added "Theory" for now since its inclusion was agreed on by all editors editing at the time. I'm not sure what it really means either, in this context, or if its the best word for this section. I think Michael raises a important point. Michael maybe you could come up with something better.There should eventually be changes to that section so maybe wait until that section is done to rename.( olive ( talk) 14:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy and Olive have told me that there was consensus for putting the word theory into the heading of the Procedure section. I missed this in the large amount of material above, and I would not have agreed. Theory has a particular definition that doesn't apply to Maharishi's definition of states of consciousness. I'm a stickler for proper use of the word theory. Only when it is unavoidable will I use the term to mean anything other than a set of ideas that have been tested by observational evidence - which doesn't apply here. A theory is something like 'objects in the gravitational field of a point mass will experience a force proportional to their mass and the mass of the point mass, and inversely proportional to the square of their separation' or 'Transcendental Meditation decreases blood pressure by X in Y% of American teenage female practioners'. Maharishi's division of consciousness into seven different states is simply a definition, not a theory. Michaelbusch ( talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
We have been discussing procedure and theory for several weeks and there has never been a comment by any of the editors involved about concerns with the "term" theory. Any of you who read the posts will know that a.) no one commented one way or the other and b.)I was also concerned about the term but felt since major changes have been planned for that section that the term could be added at that point.There is a discussion ongoing on a contentious article and deletion or adding of material without discussion is not generally considered appropriate. My concern is with Wikipedia guidelines.Please feel free to read the discussions incoming editors so that you know what is going on. Otherwise comments are inaccurate. You're right. This wasn't a consensus in the strictest meaning of the word. The discussion never even occurred. Do I, once again, see a lynching coming on.( olive ( talk) 03:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
I wanted to summarize the issues at hand right now.
The Jevning study indicates (but does not demonstrate) that plasma neurotransmitter levels increased during meditation. The same happens during relaxation; phenylalanine is a precursor to tyrosine, which is both a chemical precursor and a signal transducer involved in systemic 'stress' levels. The control group was a 'resting' group, not a "relaxation" group. Given clinical conditions, it is not unusual that a differential emerged between the study group and the control. This study might be included in the listing of research on TM, but it can't be used to substantiate the claim that TM has physiological markers not shared with states of relaxation. That lay interpretation is not supported by the data. Did you read the study yourself, or were you basing your interpretation on third-party reports? Naturezak ( talk) 20:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello Naturezak. Could you please let me know why you are ignoring the procedure adopted on this article and on any contentious Wikipedia article as noted in this tag.( olive ( talk) 14:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC))
[The {Controversial3} tag, currently located at the top of the talk page, was here, but User:Philosophus removed it, because adding templates for discussion purposes can have unintended side effects and makes following the discussion difficult.]
I've tweaked the recent edits in the Origin section. Maharishi doesn't self-identify as a Hindu, and as I understand it, Wikipedia says that editors should respect the person's self-identification regarding religion. I also felt "spiritual guru" was pulling the article toward a particular point of view. We've been ruthlessly editing the article to remove POV (thanks to some good suggestions by Naturezak), so I think we want to make sure it doesn't get pulled in the other direction. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I hope we can continue our momentum. We've made lots of changes. Thanks to everyone. I apologize if I've taxed people's patience. A next step might be to try again with the Procedure section.
I reviewed briefly the various versions of the Procedure/Theory section. There were a number of unresolved points of contention. So I thought that maybe as a starting point I'd simply condense what's currently in the article. I'm not really changing anything, mainly condensing, so maybe we can simply decide whether it's better than what's there and postpone issues such as how to characterize the process of TM.
The technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique. [7] [8] The goal of long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, waking, dreaming, and deep dreamless sleep, are commonly known. Transcendental consciousness, the fourth state, is said to be experienced during practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. Maharishi says that the practitioner eventually maintains the experience of transcendental consciousness of the fourth state while living everyday life. He refers to this as enlightenment and terms this the fifth state, cosmic consciousness. States six and seven, God consciousness and unity consciousness, are further refinements of cosmic consciousness.
A lot shorter for sure. Maybe too short. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | → | Archive 20 |
Why is there no description of how transcendental meditation is actually performed?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.61.51 ( talk)
If TM is derived from the Vedic tradition, the mantras used cannot be copyrighted. Since the procedure section is actually *absent* from the Procedure section here, I propose this information be included. Unless someone can provide documentation of the purported copyright? Naturezak ( talk) 01:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
For discussion of issues underlying the tag Dreadstar † 19:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Josha for making this distinction. My point wasn't about the whole article but about specific facts concerning the actual procedure and technique that only TM teachers would have, and for which we needed to use official TM web-sites. Your phrase, "which have to evaluate the organization and its products" and especially key word "evaluate" seem important. Wikipedia indicates references to self publication is ok under certain circumstances WP:SELFPUB. So as I understand it, in the intro.of the article speaking about the actual technique itself and the procedures would be ok since this requires information no one but the TM teachers would have in any kind of really accurate way, and nothing is gained for example by saying , one sits with the eyes closed for 23 minutes instead of twenty, but speaking about the effects the technique has , as in for example the research requires a neutral reliable, verifiable source. I may have not made that a clear distinction. I think we have really "sweated" through the article looking for reliable sources over time. There have been numerous discussions to that point so I think what's there is reliable, but you made an important point and distinction, I thought.( olive 13:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC))
I want to make a addition "In his book Flim-Flam!, James Randi expressed his doubts about the pro-TM research in existence at the time". Since this might be a controversial change, I wanted to discuss it here. Eiler7 00:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Eiler.... some thoughts
Peer-review AND the reputation of the publication itself is a generally accepted method, and i think the word general is important here, for acceptance of research studies in the scientific community. This opinion isn’t just held by a few people but is generally accepted. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t heated discussion in the scientific community about the complete and total reliability of all peer-reviews or that good papers are rejected or poor papers accepted. However the concern here can’t be on a discussions of peer-review in the entire scientific community, but rather on what can be used in Wikipedia as a way of defining what is reliable and verifiable. In Wikipedia, the standard for reliability for cited research is peer-review, and as has been mentioned, the publication itself. Wikipedia on Peer-review:
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable publications in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research
Although one could argue these points either in the scientific world in general or in Wikipedia, and the arguments may be legitimate, the standard that Wikipedia editors generally should use and have to rely on is peer-review and quality of publication as Wikipedia states. Arguments could go on forever about the reliability of peer review as I know they have, but peer-review coupled with the “established literature” defines acceptance by Wikipedia standards.
Randi's book is outdated - 30 years is pretty outdated, and the research has been superceded by more recent research. I am wondering why you don't look for more recent research to support your claims.( olive 14:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC))
This debate has been such an education for me, I almost hate to see it end! Thanks, guys. I think when all is said and done, the TM article(s) will win the prize for the most rigorously and thoroughly researched article(s) on Wikipedia! Do any other articles receive so much constant attention? Sueyen 19:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I believe that many criticisms in Randi's book still are valid, but I understand the hesitation of citing a 30 year old source. However, I am surprised that the Alberta study which reviewed meditation research, specifically including TM research, is not included. It found that there are a number of issues with methodology of the research so that little if any conclusions can be drawn as to its benefits. Here is a link to the study: http://www.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf It is peer reviewed and a much better source than the Randi source. I suggest a discussion of this study be included. Judyjoejoe ( talk) 01:44, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Aksefgh As you will notice this article has been tagged as controversial and as such editors are expected to discuss any contentious material on the talk pages before adding to the article. The material you added is as the archived discussions might indicate very contentious and as well you add the material without citing a source. I have deleted the material and put it here for now. To be added to the article it should have verifiable, reliable references and should as well be discussed in terms of WP:WEIGHT(olive)
Material deleted from article:
Different religious groups, especially certain Christians, see TM as another dangerous branch of spiritualism, where one is drawn into a world of delusion not unlike the life an initiate of a cult lives. Certain people believe that the repeating of Mantras invokes evil spirits and the deliberate emptying of one’s mind leaves it vulnerable to possession by these spirits, which is why adherents feel an inner change. There are various examples of those who at first found TM as a method that achieved the desired results who later suffered ‘nervous breakdowns’, severe depression and found themselves delving into the occult.
Regarding TM-effect on cognitive function: Chalmers did not respond to the Canter/Ernst study in Wiener Klinische Wochenschrift but to an not mentioned editorial of Canter on BMJ. -- Josha52 13:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Davids website is a "only" website. Is it allowed in WP to use it as a source and point of view? -- Josha52 18:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, think I try it in german WP too. -- Josha52 21:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
It looks to me like the page should be restructured. I would first like to read what TM is about, then about its history. I think the research review should be last of these three. Piechjo 09:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look at Wikipedia's featured articles you see that they are structured diffrently starting with an overview and ending with more specific details. I wanted to know more about TM since it has been in the Finnish media due to David Lynch's promotion visit. I was curious to know more about TM and its connection to religion. There's something about it but it seems hidden and pretty vague. In some parts it feels like this article is made like an advert, or maybe it's just the TM way of talking. Whatever works in the Vedic world may not work in Wikipedia. First things first, alright? Piechjo ( talk) 18:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
My take on it anyway.( olive ( talk) 21:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC))
I appreciate different outlooks and ways of expressing oneself. I believe TM can work - that you can develop a technique to practise happiness and emotion. It feels to me like this article differs in its tone and setting from most encyclopaedia articles. One thing to improve it could be to rearrange the sections. I suggest the following:
There should be some changes within the sections accordingly. Piechjo ( talk) 10:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Several of the major editors to this article admit to being associated with Maharishi and his organization, and in my opinion they are consistently slanting this article to their POV. I request evaluation of this by third-party editors, and if there is consensus on it, I will attempt to re-write the article to adhere to WP:NPOV. My previous attempts to do so met with resistance from the editors concerned, hence the problem. Please consult talk Archive12 for past discussions on the matter, and the immediately above section seems relevant as well. Michaelbusch ( talk) 20:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Could you explain what you think is not NPOV? It seems to be an article about a religion, and as such, should be mainly a description of the beliefs. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
These are the suggestion:
At any rate dealing with these issues will go a long way to removing POV language. I want to mention that both TG and I, and other editors as well have spent a fair amount of time on the different TM articles to remove less than laymen friendly language.There are however numerous editors to consider who have contributed over several years of time and this has been a highly controversial article so and one can't just hack away at articles that other editors have spent a lot of time with.We may however be in position to make the kind of changes that will shorten the article and remove less than acceptable language. I am around today so could do some or all of the editing I have suggested . Then we can see where we are in terms of the article. I won't begin of course, without consensus.( olive ( talk) 17:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy, Olive: you don't seem to understand WP:COI. You should not be editing this page. You have conflicts of interest, and you admit them. That much is good. But you continue to edit the article. As I explained above, the lead is not the only problem. Please let others edit the article instead of you. I would re-write it myself, but I'm on vacation and not online much. Michaelbusch ( talk) 22:12, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
...are not barred from participating in articles and discussion of articles where they have a conflict of interest, but must be careful when editing in mainspace. Compliance with this guideline requires discussion of proposed edits on talk pages and avoiding controversial edits in mainspace.
Martin, Olive: I am not trying to harass or offend anyone. I apologize if I have given that impression. I am trying to get this article into a form that avoids the subtle NPOV issues I described above. With respect, given their admitted COIs, I don't think TimidGuy or Olive are capable of giving the article objective treatment - I do not refer just to the recent edits, but to the entire history of the article. This is simply due to their point-of-view: because the required edits are subtle, they will most likely be missed by anyone with any strong bias, no matter how objective they try to be. Olive, you are correct that you have tried to explain your edits, but again, I am not saying there is anything blatantly bad with the article - only that it is subtly slanted. I probably edit articles related to my research the same way. Michaelbusch ( talk) 00:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
@Michaelbusch: As olive mentioned WP does NOT forbide editing while being an expert in a field. But it IS forbidden to mob someone out by unproven statemets as not being "capable of giving the article objective treatment". Second: Not every expert is automatically incapable of being neutral. If this would be the case any scientific writing must be doubted. Third: If you see possibilities to enhance an article, fine! If you are editing in a manner which is in tune with WP’s rules everybody would be thankful. Since the more are helping the less the others have to do. Fourth: One of the rules are: If a lemma is controversal (and there is no doubt that this lemma is) one should NOT start editing without any discussion. Fifth: The older an article the more difficult to rewrite in a whole.
Therefore some techniques have been proven to be practical: Start with the (discussion of the) structure. Since most of the time the material is long time online it does no big harm to an article when some paragraphs come into a new order. As soon the structure is consens, start right away with (the discussion of ;-) ) the first paragraph: Show your alternative, discuss it, and finally replace. Then the next, then the next. (The intro should be handled last, out of logical reasons.)
Every other method, esp. replacing the article in one stroke, is leading to a mass and conflicts with important WP-rules: since naturally there will be many discussion points afterwards, and it is very difficult to discuss all at once.
The more your work is proven as neutral and the more you show up with a broad sense for reality (means: not everything which is real is described by natural sciences, and yet it has its place in Wikipedia) the more everyone will be glad to see a further Wikipedia expert in the field. Because: It is fun to write. But it is not so much fun to defense an article from POV. And be sure: Most, absolutely most edits here were necessary because of the need for POV-DEFENSE: subtle statements, subtle connotations, subtle but totally subjective points of critics NOT because of scientific reasons but because of reasons of Weltanschauung: "We don’t like indian stuff, therefore TM is bad." "We don’t like people who have a global concept, therefore TM is bad". "We don’t like something which does not fit into our purely physical view of the world, and therefore TM is bad." And so on.
I for myself will not show up very often, since I am German and not perfect in English. But I am learning from what is going on here. Be slow. There is NO need to hurry in Wikipedia. Take into consideration that everybody else also does this job in its free time. Means: Give those who are envolved the time they need to react.
Good luck. -- Josha52 ( talk) 14:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sounds acceptable. For my apologize: The article went through many offences of those who are, out of whatever reasons, against TM. Therefore those who wish honestly nothing else then a neutral text are a bit sensitive as soon a new offence seems to start. – Anyway: Try to win the confidence of those who were engaged here. Therefore the procedure I layed out is a practical way: at least for the first big stepps. Another procedure could be: Write the article offline, publish it on your user page and ask for general oppinion. And then follow the discussion for implementing piece by piece. – See: There is NO reason to hurry. If a Lemma is complex and controversal (and this is) discussion IS needed. That this could "weary" you and would "clutter the talk page with at least several megabytes of verbage" is NO argument to avoid discussion. Take a deep breath: and start slowly ;-) -- Josha52 ( talk) 11:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
@Michaelbusch: Saw now a bit of the earlier discussions here (February-April 2007). Wondering a bit. Points around "pseudoscience" don’t seem to be of any relevance here: from whatever side. Because: One thing is the TM technique. Its results have to be described with the best sources available – period. Its theory has to be layed out by its founder has to be layed out – period. This is already well done. The other thing are the mental experiments how to understand its effectivness: all the theories which came up year by year. Fine! Describe the most important of them as a claim of those who establish these theories – and if there are relevant sources who have another theory, also fine: describe them. But: The only one who can decide whose theory is most feasible is the reader and NEVER the author. Not the author has to determine something as "pseudoscience" or "not pseudoscience", but only and ONLY the reader.
See: A lot of things which happen during TM and afterwards are a thing of their own, because they are new phanomena. Means: These things are not in opposite to any old belief, may it scientific of religious or whatever. Therefore the process of building an explanation for these new phanomena is still underway. TimidGuy, olive and all the others know this. Therefore they do NOT say in the article "This is because of ...", but they say: "The researcher think that the reason for this could be ..." And that’s fine! The researchers think so actually! And therefore the article has to mirror this: WITHOUT any comment and WITHOUT any valuation. And if there are relevant sources who have another explanation: fine! Mirror it too! But again without any comment and without any valuation. What I and you and others think of it – irrelevant. We are only the authors of a neutral encyclopädia.
Ok, let’s see, what your suggestions are. -- Josha52 ( talk) 12:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Michaelbusch, I see that you used slightly different wording in the public post, which may be misleading:
Talk:Transcendental Meditation several of the major editors to this article admit to being associated with Maharishi and his organization, the founders and marketers of Transcendental Meditation. See also the request for comment logged on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
It makes it sound like I'm involved in marketing TM. And by the way, it's not clear in what sense I"m associated with Maharishi, unless you would say that because I use a Macintosh computer I'm associated with Steve Jobs. And your use of "admit to" makes it sound like I've concealed something and then admitted to it. I volunteered the info early on that I practice Transcendental Meditation and that I'm on faculty at Maharishi University in Fairfield, Iowa. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Michaelbusch. I don't know in what sense you would say that Maharishi University of Management is run by Maharishi. It's run by a president and board of trustees, and administratively by an executive vice president and a chief administrative officer. Maharishi lives in Holland. The university is in Fairfield, Iowa. Many organizations have been founded in his name. Maharishi University of Management is one of them. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Since I have not heard from anyone except TimidGuy, and because everyone pretty much agreed that the lead could be changed, I have gone ahead and edited that part of the article to hopefully be more user friendly.I'll wait a few days for other editors to respond since we are going into a holiday period in the US, and if there is still no response, I'll continue editing with the view that no one has objections.( olive ( talk) 14:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)) While we're at it moving the research section to later in the article may be more neutral. As per earlier discussions with Piechjo, I'll do that as well.( olive ( talk) 16:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC))
«The Transcendental Meditation technique is a component of what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi terms Maharishi Vedic Science»:
This says IMHO that there is objectively something of which TM is objectively part of: if you want so "with Maharishi or not". The sentence is informing the reader that Maharishi is calling this "something" "Maharishi Vedic Science": without any question that this something existed before (could it not be inventend by Maharishi?), and without any question that TM is really part of it (if it existed really before - could it not be that TM was included afterwards?). If you read this from an outside point of view may be you get the feeling as if you do not have any chance to disagree in any way: It IS so - period.
Let’s have a look into the german formulation: «Combined with these techniques and propagated by the organisation are esoteric teachings, the so called Maharishi Vedic Science, which amongst other things includes doctrines of architecture, astrology, music and education.»
I am NOT happy with this "esoteric" thing. But if we look into Maharishi Jyotish or Maharishi Ghandarva Ved or Maharishi Sthapathya Ved we have to acknowledge that from an outside point of view these things look as if being esoteric. What about "spiritual teachings"? Or "spiritual and pracitcal teachings"?
Please see my post more as a question then as a defintive point of view. May be I learn out of this that the german formulation is POV and the english one neutral. -- Josha52 ( talk) 20:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
A sensible point. I've made the recommended modification, including the term "esoteric" which is indisuputable; in English usage, the term encompasses "spiritual teachings". Naturezak ( talk) 03:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
At all: The only point I have to "critisize" ist this:
The original sentence says IMHO that there is objectively something of which TM is objectively part of. The sentence is informing us: Maharishi is calling something as "Maharishi Vedic Science".
There seems to be no question that this something existed before (could it not be inventend by Maharishi?).
And there seems to be no question that TM is part of this something (if it existed really before - could it not be that TM was included afterwards?).
If you read this from an outside point of view may be you get the feeling as if you do not have any chance to disagree in any way: It IS so - period.
Think that this is an example of those "subtle" POVs which are possibly (!, I am german and can’t understand subtle contexts as you) part of the text and to which Michael was referring to.
Whatever corection may come out of this is fine: for the case there is need of an correction. -- Josha52 ( talk) 14:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi TimidGuy, think you interpreted my thought in a correct manner. The current version — «Along with teachings of architecture, astrology, music and education, the Transcendental Meditation technique is a part of the Maharishi Vedic Science first developed by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and taught by him and his organization» — is reflecting what I thought to be better in quite a good manner. Sure, TM is the practical aspect and other things are the theoretical aspect. But: I think for a "normal" reader this sounds much to complex and somehow too academic and for my feeling not encyclopadic.
If there would be a easy way to change the order and if you do not mind to delete the "first" (think, "developed" makes clear enough that he M. is the source of all this) I would say: betterment in the sense of WP achieved. Like this: «Transcendental Meditation is a part of the Maharishi Vedic Science developed by Maharishi, along with teachings of architecture, astrology, music and education.» Decide you if it is necessery to repeat often Maharishi’s full name and the TM "technique": It seems to me important that it is once and again said like this, but may be not always. -- Josha52 ( talk) 08:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
What about "formulated"? I do not think that this intro is the location for going to deep in which sense it was timeles knowledge and in which sense M. rearranged the whole thing, restructured, commented it and made it complete again out of scattered details. This should be the theme of the article on MVS itself. -- Josha52 ( talk) 12:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Hhm. Nice! Now I went to tm.org and read: "Maharishi first introduced the Transcendental Meditation technique to the world 50 years ago. Since that time, he has revived many other practical programs based on the knowledge of the ancient Vedic tradition of India. You can take advantage of these programs now, even before you learn the Transcendental Meditation technique." This we find under the headline "Explore Related Programs".
Think that this shows that olive could be right: that it is not necessary to mention MVS here.
My question is: What is important? That the reader gets at least a feeling that there is "more behind"? Has WP deliver this information to him? may be WP MUST deliver it in a way, more then with some links in the bottom line of the page? Or is it the other way round advertising IF WP is putting such informations into this intro? Puh ... difficult!
In the german version decision is easier because there strong revert professionals think that the article should show the whole thing. (Well, we do not yet have any article on MVS and so on, therefore - understandable). -- Josha52 ( talk) 16:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As per discussions I have begun to edit for POV. This is a first pass on this section and I'm sure more can be done. We do have to be careful to hold on to the meaning, so there may be times when language is particular to definition of a specific state and no other words will do . I used a format with bold to highlight the levels of consciousness. This may not be appropriate so please change if not.( olive ( talk) 20:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC))
Hi olive, one thing I see: "Maharishi’s theory of enlightenment". Is ok for the case that this is a theory’s name. But this isn’t. Then it is not ok, because: It claims "elightenment" as something which is for all the readers self-evident. But there are many opinions which say that something like "enlightenment" does not exist at all. Therefore some other wording should be found (IMHO ;-) What about "theory of consciousness"? Or you make one sentence more, like this: "According to Maharishi normal state of consciousness has the potential to evolve to what he calls enlightenment. He sees seven major states ..." (or so). -- Josha52 ( talk) 20:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Fred Travis can't be considered either an objective source, nor a mainstream one. His arguments connecting electrophysiology to phenomenological states is not widely accepted, and therefore his research shouldn't be used to explain TM theory. What I heartily propose is taking a selection of the yogi's writings, and then have this followed by a lay paraphrase prepared by a Wiki editor. Naturezak ( talk) 17:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
A possible version to follow "Procedure" Feel free to edit or discard just an idea and am not attached.( olive ( talk) 16:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Theoretically, Transcendental Meditation is a technique that helps to bring the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until the mind has moved beyond or "transcended" the subtlest forms of thought to what Maharishi terms, the experience of, the source of thought. Maharishi calls this experience, Transcendental Consciousness. He has labeled, Waking, Sleeping (dreamless), and Dreaming (REM) as the first, three states of consciousness, and Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state. He goes on to say that the ability to maintain the experience of the fourth state while living everyday life to be an “enlightened” state and terms this fifth state, Cosmic Consciousness. The movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
Naturezak. I reverted your changes, unfortunately losing a couple I agree with. Please understand that Wikipedia involves consensus and avoid making major changes without discussion. It's odd that you would start restructuring the article in the midst of an ongoing discussion of how to restructure it. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to run to lunch. But I really don't agree with the sequence. And I guess I do think it's not responsible to make such a change even as we were discussing the article. I really don't think higher states should go there. The suggestion on the table was to put history first. If you disagreed with that suggestion, you might have said something. And we had consensus among two editors and not objection from anyone else to first rewrite the section on higher states before beginning the restructuring. If you disagreed with that, you could have said something. Any chance you can wait a few days on this? TimidGuy ( talk) 19:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I think it's odd to put the theory of higher states of consciousness under the heading procedure. Higher states have nothing to do with the procedure of the practice. They are the result of long-term practice. And the proposal above was to have the history section precede the higher states section. I guess I'm going to revert again. Michaelbusch, please show me where anyone objected to the proposed restructuring discussed above, as well as the discussed timing of the restructuring. Please follow the discussion. And please don't say that three people objected when in fact no one objected. I am following Wiikipedia guidelines. There's an ongoing good-faith discussion of restructuring. A new editor, who apparently hasn't read that discussion, made major changes to the structure without participating in the ongoing discussion -- in fact, without any discussion at all. In a controversial article such as this it's important to discuss major changes. I've never reverted three times in an article, but this time it's warranted. I have very specific differences of opinion regarding the structure. It's unfortunate to edit war over a change that has nothing to do with content. Please see my edit warring as a strong objection to your understanding of process. And of course to a complete lack of understanding why you would structure the article in what i consider to be an odd way. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
By the way, did you delete a section? Why, when I revert, does it show that I'm adding 3,000 characters. I've got to do something else at the moment so don't have time to study the Diff. I can't understand what would account for 3,000 characters after just glancing at it. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Naturezak, how can I fail to acknowledge your rational when we haven't even discussed it? This was the first time you presented your rationale -- after reverting three times. I don't agree with it. Michaelbusch, if you had an opinion about the structure of the article, why didn't you state it in the previous discussion? If you read it, we were trying to address issues that you raised in your RfC. We were talking about restructuring the article as one means of addressing your criticism.
Dseer, your COI allegations are harassment. You posted 6,000 words of allegations on the COI noticeboard without giving a single mainspace diff showing problematic editing. No one has ever documented problematic editing on my part. Michaelbusch, please show problematic diffs, and please do so on the COI noticeboard rather than here. Dseer,please note the section that you cite is sourced to commercial web sites, and is something we need to address. But please do it in a separate thread. I would really appreciate if you would move that part of your comment. It's disruptive of this discussion. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Timidguy, I invite you to respon Naturezak ( talk) 22:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)d to the claim made by MichaelBusch that you should not be editing this article. Naturezak ( talk) 21:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose that "Theories of Consciousness" be merged into "Procedure," as they explain no aspect of TM except its operational goal. The new Procedure section might look like:
The goal of long- term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, and God Consciousness describe aspects of what Maharishi calls enlightenment, a state in which the human being is said to be fully developed, and which is the goal of the TM technique. The seventh state, Unity Consciousness, is said to be a state in which all of the aspects of life are seen as expressions of one's inner life.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
The yogi's assertion that TM is derived from ancient Vedic traditions should properly be moved to the head graf. These changes would fit into a streamlined site structure more mindful of NPOV, since they would provide fewer opportunities for editorialization. At present, the research portion of this article skews POV considerably; the quantity of citations serves to augment the reputation of TM, rather than to inform the reader. I propose the following structure:
0 Intro 1 Procedure 2 History 3 Research 3.1 Physiological effects 3.2 Medical studies 3.2 Cognitive studies 3.3 Funding and sponsors 4 Transcendental Meditation controversies 4.1 Relationship to religion and spirituality 4.2 Cult accusations 4.3 Kropinski v. WPEC 4.4 Butler/Killian vs. MUM 4.5 Consciousness and the unified field 4.6 Issue of cost 5 Intentional communities 6 References 7 External links 8 Further reading
I hope we can sustain a focused discussion here and quickly reach a reasonable consensus. Article protection in this case seems to be an outcome of stubborn refusal to participate in conversation... we can do better. Naturezak ( talk) 21:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
While I wrote this the entire discussion seems to have progressed remarkably but I will post this anyway. Perhaps there are solutions here.
I think the syntax edits are fine.
Would editors feel more comfortable with a section that just says "Theory" and that follows "Procedure". This way all of the material on the technique itself is sequenced indicating logical progression from actually learning the technique to the mechanics and outcomes of doing it. This heading eliminates some “unfriendly language”.
Once the links are removed and the cost of starting are removed there’s not much left in the section. I see that there is a new suggestion on the table about this section so I'll look at it. My above comments may be moot If the section remains I guess it is about controversy, so could go under that section. However I think we have to be careful about undue weight here so that must be considered in editing.
I realize this is long but we are dealing with multiple, major edits to this article. I am attempting to lay out solutions based on past discussions without resorting to an edit war (which seems to have already happened as I wrote). ( olive ( talk) 22:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
Theory
Theoretically, Transcendental Meditation is a technique that helps to bring the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until the mind has moved beyond or "transcended" the subtlest forms of thought to what Maharishi terms, the experience of the source of thought. Maharishi calls this experience, Transcendental Consciousness. He has labeled, Waking, Sleeping (dreamless), and Dreaming (REM) as the first, three states of consciousness, and Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state. He goes on to say that the ability to maintain the experience of the fourth state while living everyday life is an “enlightened” state and terms this fifth state, Cosmic Consciousness. The movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
History
In 1957, at the end of a festival of "spiritual luminaries" Mahesh Yogi]] (or simply " Maharishi" to followers) inaugurated a movement to "spiritually regenerate the world. The official TM website indicates that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its inauguration including such well known personalities as comedian Jerry Seinfeld, Dolly Parton, Andy Kaufman, The Beatles, Beach Boys' Mike Love, Stevie Wonder, and Al Jardine, jazz musicians Eric Kloss and Charles Lloyd, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, actor Clint Eastwood, film director David Lynch, actor Hugh Jackman, inventor and author Itzhak Bentov, Scottish musician Donovan, actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham , and Deepak Chopra. Political leaders who practice TM include Joaquim Chissano
In the early 1970s, Maharishi launched a "World Plan" to establish one Transcendental Meditation teaching center for each one million of the world's population. Today, The Global Country of World Peace is the name of the organization through which the TM technique is taught.
( olive ( talk) 22:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy is once again disingenuous and since I'm accused of harassment I'm calling his bluff. If TimidGuy considers speaking the truth about his COI and article ownership "harassment", as all other attempts at resolution including the COI Noticeboard have failed, I encourage him to walk his talk and take me to arbitration where we can resolve this once and for all with appropriate penalties for the offenses.
The following is taken verbatim from: [4].
After much debate at the COI noticeboard, in response to concerns originally raised by Philosophus which I followed up on, it appears that there is a significant body of agreement among three expert, senior editors there, Durova, Tearlach and Athaenara, that WP:COI means what it says, and that it is not necessary to demonstrate anything more than an editor has or reasonably appears to have a Conflict of Interest. One does not have to also show that a given editor is not a "good editor", or that "bad things will happen if they don't edit the article" on the main page. Attempts to refute such "waffle defenses" are unnecessary and only muddy the water.
As Tearlach has stated in clarification: A basic report of COI just needs brief evidence of the relationship ("editor X is chief of Y's fan club - see Google/diffs/whatever"). And reams of "oh but everyone says I'm a good editor and Bad Things would happen if I stopped" waffle in defence are irrelevant. If such a relationship has been shown, editor X should follow the advice at WP:COI full stop."
Tearlach also said: "One possibility for cutting to the chase: do we need to get bogged down in discussions of whether an editor with a demonstrated COI is editing fairly? Seems to me that WP:COI is as much about being seen to avoid COI, as it is about actual proof/disproof that a known COI is biasing edits. I might be the most objective ever editor of the article on the hypothetical Tearlach Wonderful Products Inc of which I'm CEO, but there would always be some level of suspicion if I took a leading role in editing it: reason enough that I should stick to the Talk page so that propriety was seen to be observed.".
Durova said: "TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental mediatation-related articles. The particular reference in question appears to be published legitimately and appropriate as a reference source. I suggest an article content request for comment to settle the particular debate. I hope that resolves the problems, but in case it doesn't the likely alternatives are this: a user conduct request for comment and an eventual arbitration case, which would likely end in article paroles on TM topics. Another experimental option is community enforceable mediation."
Athaeanara said in follow up: Durova said: "TimidGuy has a clear and immediate conflict of interest and for this reason would be well advised to restrict participation to talk pages for all transcendental meditation-related articles." Given that this is the Conflict of interest noticeboard, a response like "Not sure why you're making this point" is not straightforward and intelligent. This section is about editors, you for example, and in fact you in particular, with, yes, clear and immediate conflict of interest issues which it would behoove you to take seriously. It is not about Mason's (or anyone else's) book. Wikipedia does not need another ream of paragraphs out of you, it needs you editing neutrally or not at all. No more long diatribes, no more changing the subject, no more disingenuity and smokescreens..."
Additionally, Ed Johnston noted the concern for the dearth of criticism was valid and was something to work on. And the header has been changed to note that "This page is for reporting and discussing incidents related to the application of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline: that is, situations where an editor appears to have a close personal or business connection with the article topic."
In summary, TimidGuy, such a COI relationship has been established for you in particular to the TM organization, as confirmed for you by three senior editors at the COI noticeboard whom I have quoted (resulting in clarification of header guidance to clarify who it applies to), and that there are no follow up statements by the other senior editors there supporting your position on why COI requirements don't apply to you because of the "good editor" defense you raised, and can also be shown for the other TMers in the original COI complaint in general, by Philosophus.
It's time you stop fantasizing, dissembling, and spreading misinformation about the decision about the problematic and damaging nature of your editing and ownership history on TM related articles, TimidGuy, and recuse yourself to an advisory role, the only appropriate role you have here now per Wikipedia standards. The issue has been fairly decided already, TimidGuy, you just won't accept the verdict. Otherwise, if you continue despite this warning to block attempts to make this article more NPOV as you have done in the past and if you refuse to take this "harassment" to arbitration, I suggest concerned editors consider taking you to arbitration to enforce the decisions of the COI noticeboard which you have ignored, so we can resolve this once and for all and get on with a more NPOV article. The only reason I haven't confronted you recently is there are so many TMers with COIs editing here backing you up it requires a body of neutral editors to make it worthwhile. Since you have exceeded your authorized role in editing on this article, I submit and will support a determination that more neutral editors do not need your agreement or consensus from TMers to proceed. -- Dseer ( talk) 23:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
IIRC, the yogic fliers claim that they fly as a result of this technique. Well, more like hop... using their leg muscles... but they CLAIM they can fly. Should this be noted in the article? Titanium Dragon ( talk) 00:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
recently changed.Is it ok as is?( olive ( talk) 18:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
I suggest using:
Transcendental Meditation, or TM, is the trademarked name of a meditation technique introduced in 1958 by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The twice-daily practice involves closing one's eyes and sitting for twenty minutes without concentration or contemplation.
The clause "is said to be effortless" is not helpfully informative, and is redundant with the non-involvement of concentration. Naturezak ( talk) 19:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
consensus to combine with Theory
The goal of long- term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Consciousness, Cosmic Consciousness, and God Consciousness describe aspects of what Maharishi calls enlightenment, a state in which the human being is said to be fully developed, and which is the goal of the TM technique. The seventh state, Unity Consciousness, is said to be a state in which all of the aspects of life are seen as expressions of one's inner life.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
A combination of rewrites 1 and 2. Rewrite 2 removed by editor who wrote it as redundant and probably not usable.
Important to note that the theory itself is based, fundamentally, on the experience of Cosmic Consciousness(CC) in which Transcendental Consciousness has become a stabilized state even in everyday activity.This is said to be the state of enlightenment, the goal of the technique, so we should, I think include some simple explanation of CC. God consciousness and Unity Consciousness are in a sense extensions of CC, so some simple mention of them should be made to complete understanding of the connections of the different states.
Maharishi posits a theory of enlightenment, the long term goal of the TM technique, to be comprised of seven major states of consciousness. The first three, Waking, Dreamless Sleep, and Dreaming, are commonly known. Transcendental Meditation, theoretically, brings the mind from more concrete thought to increasingly finer levels of thought until what Maharishi terms, the source of thought is reached. Maharishi calls the experience of the source of thought, Transcendental Consciousness. He describes Transcendental Consciousness as a fourth state, and says that the ability to maintain the experience of this fourth state while engaged in everyday activity to be a fifth, “enlightened” state, called Cosmic Consciousness. God consciousness, in which the practitioner is said to experience Cosmic Consciousness in addition to refined perception is the sixth state, and Unity Consciousness in which all aspects of life are said to be seen as expressions of one’s inner life, the seventh state. This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels.
The TM technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique.
No need to explain that theory is included in the section title; this is strongly implied by the actual content, as well as being neccesary for the procedural steps to be more clear than mere jargon would be. Please note that I have removed the contestable assertion "This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels;" is physiologically meaningless.
According to Maharishi's theory of enlightenment, there are seven levels of consciousness. The attainment of the highest of these is the long-term goal of TM.
The first three states -- "waking," "dreamless sleep," and "dreaming" -- are commonly known. Progressing through increasingly finer levels of thought, the activity of the mind next reaches what Maharishi identifies as the "source of thought," the experience of which is called "Transcendental Consciousness." When practitioners use TM to continue to experience this fourth state even during everyday activity, they are said to have reached an enlightened state called "Cosmic Consciousness." In "God Consciousness," the practitioner is said to experience Cosmic Consciousness augmented by refined perception. Finally, when through the use of TM the practitioner perceives all aspects of life as expressions of one’s inner life, they are said to have attained the seventh, highest state: "Unity Consciousness."
The TM technique is taught over four consecutive days. An introductory lecture is given on both the first and second days. The next day, the instructor conducts an interview of the student. On the fourth and final day, the instrucotr performs a brief ceremony before giving the student two hours of instruction in the technique. In subsequent sessions, the student practices the method, and the instructor provides clarification of correct technique.
IMPORTANT: This section includes NO information about what the practice IS. Therefore, this is "TEACHING" rather than "PROCEDURE." Naturezak ( talk) 03:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
seems more neutral than "states" of consciousness possibly because the word "states" has been more widely used in the TM literature. Levels however is not quite accurate . Levels generally implies discreet positions reached sequentially . Although the levels of consciousness as defined by Maharishi are "stabilized" in the order mentioned (TC, then CC,GC, and UC) they do not necessarily "develop" in this way, and in fact may develop simultaneously so "levels" may be too confining a term, and as I said not quite accurate.
( olive ( talk) 16:58, 5 December 2007 (UTC))
such as refined perception in GC and in UC, the awareness that the inner life now stabilized in CC now sees outer life as aspects of itself.( olive ( talk) 21:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC))
The first study I could put my hands on was ""The Physiology of Meditation: A Review. A Wakeful Hypometabolic Integrated Response," published in 1992 in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. The authors describe the subjective experience of being characterized as a "relaxed, blissful and wakeful state." (p 415) Later (p 420) the subjective experience of transcendence in those is described as "restful alertness." And the article says that this subjective experience "appears to be a patterned physiological response of overall decreased peripheral metabolism and activation in many of its features, including decreased whole body, muscle, and red cell metabolism, as well as decreaed plasma thyroid and adrenocortical hormone secretion. Electrophysiologically, increased galvanic skin resistance and/or decreased phasic skin resistance response, and decrease or disappearance of the EMG, frequently reported accompaniments of meditation, are also qualities consistent with rest. Other changes that may be described as extraordinary include alternation of the nature of intermediary metabolism by muscle and red cell; and phasic five-fold elevation of AVP."
So how about if we said something like this in the Procedure section: "During the practice of Transcendental Meditation, the individual experiences a state referred to as 'restful alertness,' in which the body exhibits characteristics of deep rest but the mind is relaxed but alert. The physiological characteristics of deep rest include a reduced metabolic rate and decreased hormone secretion." Whether we use this or not, the idea would be to characterize the subjective experience and then say that it affects the body. TimidGuy ( talk) 21:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, research shows that that the physiological changes in meditation, including EEG, aren't necessarily the same as relaxation. (By the way, earlier this week a meta-analysis of randomized, controlled trials was published showing that Transcendental Meditation reduces blood pressure whereas the studies on relaxation didn't show a reduction. I guess I'm not familiar with the word "hypobolically.") TimidGuy ( talk) 12:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC) I guess what I'm saying is that it seems appropriate to use "restful alertness" since many studies very specifically use that term to characterize a unique state of physiology. Seems like if it's in the sources, that's what we say. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Olive. Seems like we need to characterize the technique. Your version of Procedure had included this sentence: "This movement of the mind towards the source of thought is said to create deep rest, facilitating normalization of the bodies’ functions on both the physiological and psychological levels;" which Naturezak said is physiologically meaningless and which he deleted in his draft version. I'm finding sources that say something similar in order to show that it's not physiologically meaningless and that it may be a way of characterizing Transcendental Meditation. I was able to quickly find four good sources this morning which talk about the process of the mind settling down in meditation and the physiological correlates. (Also, they describe the differences between meditation and relaxation.) Basically just exploring ideas. And trying to think together how we might approach this while taking into account Naturezak's comments. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Sources comin' after lunch. In general, they characterize the subjective experience -- described in a variety of ways -- and then show the physiological correlates. That is, during meditation the person feels specific things happening -- the mind relaxing, sometimes experiencing awareness without an object of awareness, etc. And these experiences can be correlated with distinctive physiological states. Whether it's metaphorical or not, some sort of words need to be used to describe the experiences that are associated with these distinctive states of physiology. Might be getting in over my head here, since I'm only very vaguely familiar with the research. But will have some articles in hand after lunch. Again, all this by way of exploring here and thinking together how we might characterize the technique. Prompted by the sentence in Olive's version, but not necessarily using that sentence. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
This description is more what is needed. Needing explanation are:
There should be physiological or cognitive explanations of these features of TM practice, as opposed to physiological correlates. I'm familiar with Shear's book, although I do not recall such high-level explications in my reading of it. Feel free to reference page numbers; I have a copy on hand. Naturezak ( talk) 14:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The first two study physiological effects during the practice. The latter two are clinical applications that include discussion of the mechanism for the observed clinical effects. This discussion characterizes the practice in terms such as this: "During the TM technique, it has been reported that the ordinary thinking process settles down and a distinctive 'wakeful hypometabolic state' is gained."
So what's my point? I'm not sure. : ) Seriously, maybe these studies can help characterize the nature of the practice by offering solid sources that use specific language to characterize the practice and then, beyond that, show that the state of the physiology during TM is well understood, such that this characterization isn't just a "teaching" by Maharishi or merely a subjective experience, but rather a specific subjective experience that has been repeatedly reported and that has been understood empirically through via scientific study. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
There is potentially a gap, between what we can put into this article in terms of understanding the technique, and what we can’t according to the encyclopedic Wikipedia policies/guidelines. Perhaps you are asking, if I understand you correctly, is how does the mantra effect the movement of the mind to finer levels, what are these finer levels. In the performing and visual arts there are multiple exercises that use the brain's tendency, very simply put, 'cause I am no brain researcher but a performing arts, visual arts teacher...to shift "modes” if given the right stimulus. For example, and this is a superficial parallel to what happen with the mantra, if the so-called, "left-mode", functioning brain, the logical, critical, sequential- thinking brain is given meaningless words, or movement or language that is faster or slower than its usual functioning mode, the original mode will, as it were, tire of attempting to deal with this and give the “work” over to another mode to deal with, the whole brain mode, or what used to be called the "right brain-mode - a restful, non-critical, non sequential- thinking mode. Sanford Meissner's repetition exercises, Nickolaides' blind-contour drawing are examples of these but there are many. The mantra has no meaning. The left-brain mode won't deal with this for long so possibly a shift is made. The mantra also has vibrational qualities, which apparently effect a deeper profound response than a non-sense word used in an acting exercise would. But the parallel may be that the brain given something it can't think on, or produce sequential thought with, moves beyond logical-thinking mode to finer levels of the word/mantra. The brain in a sense allows the mantra to fade, and disappear because it can't connect logical thought to it. The brain naturally stops thinking in the left- mode way, as it were. I believe there is some research that has applied brain functioning to the arts in general, but I am not aware of any that applies to TM. The problem is we can't take that research and apply it here because we run into Original Research guideline. It’s an area I am very interested in because there seem to parallels to the arts. Maharishi has explained the place beyond thought as the creative source. Again, there is no research or material I know of that supports this. There are writers dealing with this topic in terms of understanding creativity, but again to take that information and connect it to TM is WP:OR. Unified Field Theory seems to parallel this. But again here on Wikipedia we can't make the kind of argument we could on a paper, discussing these parallels and the possibility that they are one and the same thing. We could quote other papers, and research if there was discussion of TM but not use this in the article ourselves. I realize this is a long harangue, and apologize, but this seems to me to be an important point you have raised. I also am not a scientist, but an artist, and tend to look in other place beside scientific research for sources. I'm not sure if there is a solution at this point in time, excepting material from Shear’s book and possibly brain wave research. I am not aware of research or papers dealing with these topics and TM. Maybe someone else is.( olive ( talk) 18:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC))
Comments:
I guess I'm confused. Your suggested rewrite of the section now titled Procedure and Theory included higher states. Naturezak, I guess you're saying that that remain intact but the research on higher states be in a separate article. In that it? In any case, it just seems that the most extraordinary claims in this article -- that one can experience transcendental consciousness during TM and eventually higher states during activity -- should be supported by research. That's the most unique thing about TM. Research has never been done on any other group experiencing higher states of consciousness. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Naturezak, I believe you're saying the same thing that I suggested in an earlier thread - in which I suggested we may not need to enumerate each of the three higher states, but just refer to it in a general way, as Fred Travis does in his research. And I'm pleased you feel that this particular research could go in the research section. Seems like we're agreed. So to summarize, we have a section titled theory and practice or procedure and theory that includes essentially drafts that you and Olive produced. This covers the discussion of the possibility of a higher state of consciousness. We have a pointer to the related section in the research section that talks about the research on the physiological and neurophysiological parameters of the practice, on the unique neurophysiological characteristics of the epochs of transcendental consciousness during a meditation, and the evidence that eventually these latter characteristics are also present in activity. This would be a rewritten, condensed, and more reader friendly version of what was already in the article. And please forgive me if I have misunderstood. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Comments:
Use a condensed version?( olive ( talk) 19:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
A condensed version created many moons ago (with some recent editing) when there were concerns with the TM article over length. I think this is also a more reader friendly version.Any thoughts,comments.( olive ( talk) 20:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
In 1979, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the Transcendental Meditation technique together with the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI) could not be taught in New Jersey, public schools. The appellate court upheld the decision of a lower court that teaching the technique in the schools violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which creates a wall of separation between church and state. The court ruled that although not a theistic religion, TM/SCI falls within the legal definition of religion because it deals with issues of ultimate concern, truth, and other ideas analogous to those in well-recognized religions.
Since lawsuits are definitionally occasions of controversy, I believe they should be listed separated under the heading "Controversy." This has the added benefit of streamlining the article structure. Naturezak ( talk) 19:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I just can't see how I can budge on this. Note WP:Weight and a quote from that guideline,
An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
. Three lawsuits in 50 years barely deserves inclusion.A subheading signals importance equal to the subheading given a larger more prevalent topic such as cult or religion.The lawsuits use greater quantity of text than warranted relevant to other sections in the article. Three lawsuits in 50 years probably deserves a few lines. Using subheadings to signal importance compounds the problem, in my mind at least.( olive ( talk) 00:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
Comment: Links should be removed. They are not Wikipedia Compliant. I'm fine with price being in the first line. I do think that if cost does not contribute to advertising either does an explanation of what the cost "buys"... teaching of the technique , three days checking and a lifetime checking with any recertified TM teacher . Not to include this is a subtle POV. Then we can add material about TM teachers who have a problem with this cost. Should this be in controversy section .... not sure but maybe.( olive ( talk) 20:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
Comments: Agreement to move to external links from Timid Guy, Naturezak, Roseapple, Olive.( olive ( talk) 19:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
Suggested Structure:
0 Intro
1 Procedure and Theory
2 Development
3 Research
---3.1 Physiological effects
---3.2 Medical studies
---3.2 Cognitive studies
---3.3 Funding and sponsors
4 Transcendental Meditation controversies
---4.1 Relationship to religion and spirituality
---4.2 Cult accusations
---4.3 Lawsuits [Kropinski v. WPEC and Butler/Killian vs. MUM]
---4.4 Consciousness and the unified field
---4.5 Issue of cost
---4.6 Dissenting TMers [i.e., dissenting splinter groups e.g. TM Independent]
5 References
6 External links [w/Intentional communities]
7 Further reading
Comments: Don’t want to make it still more difficult here, but: Question is, how strict Wikipedia is a , let me say lexical encyclopedia. If it is, structure seems very ok for me. If it is not, one thing could be added: organisational aspects. I opposed long time to this argument in german WP. But today I am looking at it in a different way: from the viewpoint of the reader/visiitor of the article. Because: Many people who are googling TM are not only interested into what the TM techiques would be. But also in the question "what about the organisation behind it". They often even do not know that this organisation is called today "Global Country of World Peace". So I think today that it would be at least an act of kindliness to offer in such an article some more insight into the organisation/movement: may be with the information of "In details please see ...". So: I do not think that TM should be looked at primarily out of an sociological angle as some had argued here and in Germany. But on the other side without any doubt in the eyes of its founder and organisations it is a tool by which the world should be changed to a better. Somehow it feels as if this aspect is not covered enough here (again: in details, sure, there could be another article for that). -- Josha52 ( talk) 13:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Hhm. "Development" sounds as if there has been an evolution of TM. As far as I know there wasn’t. Waht to do? -- Josha52 ( talk) 18:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Would a shorter version be better. I also wrote a shorter version of this -refer to discussion , but again not attached o it. I feel the present History veers away from info.on the technique in too many places.( olive ( talk) 20:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC))
History
In 1957, at the end of a festival of "spiritual luminaries" Mahesh Yogi]] (or simply "Maharishi" to followers) inaugurated a movement he describes as one that would"spiritually regenerate the world". The official TM website indicates that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its inauguration including such well known personalities as comedian [[JerrySeinfeld] Dolly Parton, Andy Kaufman, The Beatles, Beach Boys' Mike Love, Stevie Wonder, and Al Jardine, jazz musicians Eric Kloss and Charles Lloyd, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, actor Clint Eastwood, film director David Lynch, actor Hugh Jackman, inventor and author Itzhak Bentov, Scottish musician Donovan, actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham, and [[Deepak Chopra. Political leaders who practice TM include Joaquim Chissano
In the early 1970s, Maharishi launched a "World Plan" to establish one Transcendental Meditation teaching center for each one million of the world's population. Today, The Global Country of World Peace is the name of the organization through which the TM technique is taught.
In 1941, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (b. Mahesh Prasad Varma) became a secretary to Swami Brahmananda Saraswati. Maharishi remained with Brahmananda Saraswati until the latter passed away in 1953. Although Maharishi was a close disciple, he could not be the Shankaracharya's spiritual successor since he was not of the Brahmin caste.
In 1955, Maharishi began teaching a meditation technique he later renamed Transcendental Meditation. In 1957, he began the Spiritual Regeneration Movement in Madras, India, on the concluding day of a festival held in remembrance of his deceased teacher. By 1958 Maharishi had begun the first of a number of worldwide tours promoting and disseminating his technique. In the early 1970s, Maharishi undertook to establish one TM teaching center for each million of the world's population, which at that time would have meant 3,600 TM centers throughout the world.
Since 1990, Maharishi has coordinated the teaching of TM from the town of Vlodrop, the Netherlands, through an organization he calls the Global Country of World Peace. This group reports that more than 6 million people worldwide have learned the Transcendental Meditation technique since its introduction.
Naturezak 03:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Points of clarification:
What about:
Maharishi has coordinated the teaching of TM from the town of Vlodrop, the Netherlands, through a country without borders he calls the Global Country of World Peace.
As the article is to concern only the topic, it would be inappropriate to include a list of practioners -- although their TM affiliation belongs on THEIR WP pages. Their practice of the method is completely independent of the method. What TimidGuy sounds to be advocating would be a new section, e.g. "TM in Pop Culture." Naturezak 16:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Both the cultural phenomenon and media attention to research seem to be notable enough to be included in this section, well sourced of course. Roseapple 22:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Both the "cultural impact" and "media attention to research" are unsuitable for this section. They are historical phenomenom related to TM, NOT examples of the phenomena which comprise the history of TM. It is easy enough to see that any mention of the "media attention" to research belongs in the first nut graf of the Research section... although we should see potential examples of that text before we spend too much time deliberating it. As for the cultural imapct of TM, this is speculative; complex; and invites POV abuses, so again, let's see proposed text before we more ourselves in a discussion of as-yet nonexistent rewrites. Naturezak 00:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned above in the "theories" discussion in my mind the TM technique is connected intimately to process, procedure and theory and some mention of that needs to be included . This section is once again about the connection of the technique to something else . Whatever our decisions are I believe we have to be consistent . If TheoRies section is removed so should this be . If not this section might be appropriate although Pagel's quote is not about TM but about the organization, and that should be looked at , I think. ( olive ( talk) 16:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC))
I really appreciate the fact that we're collaborating and coming to consensus on a number of points. But I'm worried that we'll forget what we've decided. So I want to start a summary in this thread.
In the thread on lawsuits, Naturezak didn't explicitly agree to a single heading, but I assume consensus since he himself edited his working draft of the outline to include this change.
Thanks, everyone. This represents significant progress. We can update this as we come to consensus on additional points. The next thing we may need to do is to create a sandbox for the new versions of the Procedure & Theory and Development (or History) sections. We keep getting confused where the proposed drafts are. Also, both Olive and Naturezak have separately written drafts of the Procedure & Theory section. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to thank Naturezak as a newer editor on this article for patiently wading through this and really considering every area. I really appreciate working with someone like this.( olive ( talk) 00:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC))
Things are starting to get muddled it seems so what about starting to write a new section for this with multiple variations.
In the meantime, I would like to summarize what has been said so far. Please add on what I forget to add.
This is just a start to cataloging our points.
I'd like to start writing something the next day or so as a starting point. Any other rewrite of this section could be posted here and we could start to look at all of the versions to see which contains what we want to have in the article. I would like to suggest we edit each others versions.... perhaps by by leaving the original intact, pasting a copy below the original, and adding edits there with explanation.Not sure this procedure will work but could we give it a try. Lets not feel attached to our versions . After all the original will be there intact. I feel we could talk forever but maybe its time to nail something down ( olive ( talk) 23:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC))
As I say, I'm only vaguely familiar with the research. But got some help from a friend who's more familiar with it. I hope this addresses your point. I can supply refs in the morning for each point if you like.
First of all, TM has been shown to promote statistically significantly greater decreases in oxygen consumption and CO2 production, decreases in heart and breath rate, and increases in galvanic skin response (GSR -- a marker of sympathetic tone) -- these may well be found to varying extents in controlled rest subjects (in resting non-TM subjects, in subjects practicing a variety of other relaxation techniques, as well as in practitioners of TM who served as their own controls during non-TM "simple rest" periods) -- but several peer-reviewed medical studies published in top journals have shown these measures to be quantitatively different enough (with statistical significance) to warrant reporting in the journals. This alone is sufficient to justify to make the point that a simple mental technique could elicit such a profound set of physiologic changes that achieves a more significant (deeper) hypometabolic state of rest than simple eyes closed resting, sleeping or practice of alternative stress reduction techniques -- a point which is remarkable, both medically and culturally.
But in fact TM has also been found to produce statistically significant and medically publishable qualitative differences between non-stylized "simple rest" and TM practice in the following biochemical markers:
Can you provide a source for the conventional understanding of relaxation and the physiological changes it entails? TimidGuy ( talk) 02:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Naturezak. I wonder about your deletion of the reference to the study in Current Hypertension Reports. How do you know it's not peer reviewed? I actually think this may be a good study to include. Also, it may not be appropriate to delete something because you think it's "statistically suspect." But of course we would need to give a proper citation, rather than the link to EurekAlert. Or maybe both, since Wikipedia does encourage "convenience links." TimidGuy ( talk) 16:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
We could get another opinion, perhaps on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. My understanding is that this is a prestigious journal. And I believe that a meta-analysis of peer-reviewed research is a source of the highest standard. The editor in chief is at Harvard Medical School. I believe this is the sort of source that Wikipedia desires. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Still curious how you know that it's not peer reviewed. For example, this source says it's peer reviewed. [7] I think you may be right, but I'd be interested to know, if you don't mind. TimidGuy ( talk) 20:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe the print edition was mailed out at the beginning of the month. But the web site hasn't yet been updated. I have a pdf. Here's a citation: "Stress Reduction Programs in Patients with Elevated Blood Pressure: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis," Current Hypertension Reports, Vol. 9, Issue 6: December 2007, pp. 520-528.
Certainly I'm open to discussion whether to include this reference in the TM article. Right now it almost doesn't seem necessary. It would likely only become relevant if we would ever want to make a distinction between the clinical RCTs on relaxation compared to TM. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss removal of apparently relevant, sourced content such as in this edit, before removing it. Thanks! Dreadstar † 02:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, he removed it without discussing. He only discussed it once I raised the issue, and didn't ever share his evidence that it's not peer reviewed. And certainly didn't explain how he knew it was "statistically suspect" without having seen the article. And he never did discuss his removal of two paragraphs of research on the long-term effects of Transcendental Meditation that were sourced to peer-reviewed research. [8] Seems like the removal of such sourced material would have deserved discussion and consensus.
But I shouldn't criticize. Naturezak has really helped focus attention on some important areas, and we've come to consensus on a number of things. If we can resolve our current discussion of how to characterize Transcendental Meditation, I think the article will be even stronger. It's been an interesting discussion and fascinating to have his perspective. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to both Dreadstar and Philosophus as experienced editors/admins for coming onto the TM article. We have been involved in complex and extensive discussions on changes to the article for several weeks. To have an editor, however well intentioned, add anything new to this article right now especially as happened, without discussion, is for me a distraction that takes time and energy away from completing the already weighty task of fixing up this article.I would like very much to be able to complete the changes now "on the table", before dealing with anything else. Any thoughts about having the article protected for awhile so we can carry on until present topics being discussed are dealt with.Thanks for help.( olive ( talk) 16:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC))
The extensive discussion is not doing the work.The editors are, as I said. This article has been protected several times. It has been the scene of edit wars. This a contentious article.Making changes to this article requires consensus. Lets not pretend that any of these condition do not exist, and consensus is the Wikipedia guideline for dealing with this. Verifiable, reliable sources are the Wikipedia standard, and I intend to use those guidelines otherwise the sky is the limit and has been on what can be included in an article. Providing research to support statements in an article does not violate NPOV. Nor has there been consensus reached on where undue weight may be violated. I am certainly one who "talks" too much and I apologize for that.But I am also fed up with being misunderstood and of being accused all of manner of Wikipedia sins.So I try to explain as clearly as possible. Yes, we have talked about using a sandbox and I suggest we do that to avoid any "warring".I will support changes within consensus that are accurate in meaning, that are supported by reliable, verifiable sources and that do not violate undue weight.Thats the Wikipedia way. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!:0) ( olive ( talk) 07:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC))
By the way, Naturezak deleted a addition to the article that appeared to be appropriate. The manner for dealing with concerns he might have had given the climate surrounding this article would have been to follow the delete with a note on the talk pages.I respect Naturezak's boldness but one must also be aware of the climate. Dreadstar was merely following Wkipedia protocol. Please note the procedure outlined on the tag concerning contentious articles.( olive ( talk) 07:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC))
Here are some studies that show that the effects of TM are either quantitatively or qualitatively different from relaxation (see an explanation of the distinction in an earlier thread):
All of these studies are on Transcendental Meditation, even though the article title doesn't always indicate it. TimidGuy ( talk) 18:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Well said. Here, for example, is one of the abstracts:
The concentration of 13 neutral and acidic plasma amino acids was measured before, during and after either 40 min of control relaxation or 40 min of the process known as transcendental meditation (TM). An electro-oeulogram, electroencephalogram, and electromyogram were simultaneously monitored in these subjects. Increased phenylalanine concentration was noted during TM practice with no change during control relaxation; no difference between the groups of total time slept or sleep stage percent was observed. The stability of phenylalanine concentration in controls and lack of correlation of increased phenylalanine with sleep in the long-term practitioners seem to suggest a relationship of the phenylalanine increase to TM practice.
This study suggests that someone practicing Transcendental Meditation has changes to blood chemistry during practice that are not seen in control subjects during relaxation. TimidGuy ( talk) 12:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I question the relevance of the first graf; the inclusion of a list of prestigious research institutions, and a listing of the impressively high number of studies that have been conducted on this topic, seems to imply an endorsement of the practice and underlying theory which contradicts NPOV... certainly, these facts don't report anything about TM itself. Naturezak ( talk) 15:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the prestige-enhancing list of institutions from the first graf, and invite other editors to compose a more impartial introduction to this section, which explains the historical origins of research on TM, and *why* such research is conducted. Naturezak ( talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I will likely re add the material tomorrow unless a discussion gives rise to a consensus on another version.( olive ( talk) 01:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC))
I believe its time to let this section go. There is a lot of discussion about a section that may be insignificant. In future, I strongly suggest that deletion and addition given the climate of this article be subjected to discussion and consensus.( olive ( talk) 17:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
To clarify . I'm talking about the section and discussion on the section on research institutions.( olive ( talk) 17:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
In the thread on lawsuits, Naturezak didn't explicitly agree to a single heading, but I assume consensus since he himself edited his working draft of the outline to include this change.
I have re added "Theory" for now since its inclusion was agreed on by all editors editing at the time. I'm not sure what it really means either, in this context, or if its the best word for this section. I think Michael raises a important point. Michael maybe you could come up with something better.There should eventually be changes to that section so maybe wait until that section is done to rename.( olive ( talk) 14:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC))
TimidGuy and Olive have told me that there was consensus for putting the word theory into the heading of the Procedure section. I missed this in the large amount of material above, and I would not have agreed. Theory has a particular definition that doesn't apply to Maharishi's definition of states of consciousness. I'm a stickler for proper use of the word theory. Only when it is unavoidable will I use the term to mean anything other than a set of ideas that have been tested by observational evidence - which doesn't apply here. A theory is something like 'objects in the gravitational field of a point mass will experience a force proportional to their mass and the mass of the point mass, and inversely proportional to the square of their separation' or 'Transcendental Meditation decreases blood pressure by X in Y% of American teenage female practioners'. Maharishi's division of consciousness into seven different states is simply a definition, not a theory. Michaelbusch ( talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
We have been discussing procedure and theory for several weeks and there has never been a comment by any of the editors involved about concerns with the "term" theory. Any of you who read the posts will know that a.) no one commented one way or the other and b.)I was also concerned about the term but felt since major changes have been planned for that section that the term could be added at that point.There is a discussion ongoing on a contentious article and deletion or adding of material without discussion is not generally considered appropriate. My concern is with Wikipedia guidelines.Please feel free to read the discussions incoming editors so that you know what is going on. Otherwise comments are inaccurate. You're right. This wasn't a consensus in the strictest meaning of the word. The discussion never even occurred. Do I, once again, see a lynching coming on.( olive ( talk) 03:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC))
I wanted to summarize the issues at hand right now.
The Jevning study indicates (but does not demonstrate) that plasma neurotransmitter levels increased during meditation. The same happens during relaxation; phenylalanine is a precursor to tyrosine, which is both a chemical precursor and a signal transducer involved in systemic 'stress' levels. The control group was a 'resting' group, not a "relaxation" group. Given clinical conditions, it is not unusual that a differential emerged between the study group and the control. This study might be included in the listing of research on TM, but it can't be used to substantiate the claim that TM has physiological markers not shared with states of relaxation. That lay interpretation is not supported by the data. Did you read the study yourself, or were you basing your interpretation on third-party reports? Naturezak ( talk) 20:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello Naturezak. Could you please let me know why you are ignoring the procedure adopted on this article and on any contentious Wikipedia article as noted in this tag.( olive ( talk) 14:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC))
[The {Controversial3} tag, currently located at the top of the talk page, was here, but User:Philosophus removed it, because adding templates for discussion purposes can have unintended side effects and makes following the discussion difficult.]
I've tweaked the recent edits in the Origin section. Maharishi doesn't self-identify as a Hindu, and as I understand it, Wikipedia says that editors should respect the person's self-identification regarding religion. I also felt "spiritual guru" was pulling the article toward a particular point of view. We've been ruthlessly editing the article to remove POV (thanks to some good suggestions by Naturezak), so I think we want to make sure it doesn't get pulled in the other direction. TimidGuy ( talk) 16:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I hope we can continue our momentum. We've made lots of changes. Thanks to everyone. I apologize if I've taxed people's patience. A next step might be to try again with the Procedure section.
I reviewed briefly the various versions of the Procedure/Theory section. There were a number of unresolved points of contention. So I thought that maybe as a starting point I'd simply condense what's currently in the article. I'm not really changing anything, mainly condensing, so maybe we can simply decide whether it's better than what's there and postpone issues such as how to characterize the process of TM.
The technique is taught to new practitioners in a standardized, seven-step procedure, comprised of two introductory lectures, a personal interview, and a two-hour instruction session given on each of four consecutive days. Instruction begins with a short ceremony performed by the teacher, after which the student learns and begins practicing the technique. Subsequent sessions are said to provide further clarification of correct practice, as well as more information about the technique. [7] [8] The goal of long-term practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique is enlightenment, according to Maharishi. He posits a theory of enlightenment comprising seven major states of consciousness. The first three, waking, dreaming, and deep dreamless sleep, are commonly known. Transcendental consciousness, the fourth state, is said to be experienced during practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. Maharishi says that the practitioner eventually maintains the experience of transcendental consciousness of the fourth state while living everyday life. He refers to this as enlightenment and terms this the fifth state, cosmic consciousness. States six and seven, God consciousness and unity consciousness, are further refinements of cosmic consciousness.
A lot shorter for sure. Maybe too short. TimidGuy ( talk) 17:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)