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This article would benefit from having the most famous image related to the "Trail of Tears", painted by Robert Lindneux in 1942 and found all over the Internet, such as: [1]. The artist died in 1970 ( [2]); I don't know if we can use this image, but it would be nice.-- Kevin Myers 04:28, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
This famous painting has a number of inaccuracies. For instance, there were NO Army guards for the 12 thousand-person wagon trains in the fall and winter of 1838-1839. Prior to this part of the Removal, Gen. Scott ordered the disarming of the Cherokees. There were enough wagons (their canvas tops were marked "C.N." i.e. "Cherokee Nation") for transport and few folks had to walk. Chief Ross purchased several hundred wagons and teams for the trip, then later charged the Army rental fees for them, even though they were sold for profit in Arkansas in 1839. Food, forage, and cold-weather clothing were furnished by Lewis Ross (brother of Chief Ross), and there were few complaints afterwards by Cherokees (but plenty of complaints about Army rations provided in Indian Territory in 1839). The wagon trains by-passed certain ferry sites to avoid being gouged by higher tolls.( Oconostota ( talk) 19:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC))
read the article, the people were forced to walk the entire length, many died along the way, death march seems rather appropriate, also considering that they were under military guard the entire time. " forced relocation" removes any reference to thier suffering, which is in itself a pov. Hence, Death March is appropriate. Gabrielsimon 02:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
As far as I can tell the problem with trying to understand the Cherokee's removal is that the whole thing was done half assed so there is not usual story for all of the Cherokees removals.
BTW you don't send people on a long trip with food that will go bad unless you want them to die. Someone(s) wanted the TOT to be a death march.
I have removed the supposed Unicode version of the Cherokee language version of "Trail of Tears" in the opening paragraph. It looked like this:
{{Unicode|Ꭸá¥áŽ§áŽ²á“ ᎠáᎬᎢ}}
I tried to turn that text into actual entities in &xXXXX; format, but as far as I can tell, it is corrupted and unusable. For example, that "Ž" turns into hex 17D, which is too large to fit into the lower two nibbles of the 2-byte Unicode representation. I'm not all that well versed in Unicode, though; maybe I'm just not understanding something.
I also removed "getsikahvda anegvi", which as far as I can tell has nothing to do with anything. :) If someone here knows otherwise, please let me know or correct the article; I am curious how that got in there! — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 00:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Kevin Myers, not unreasonably, removed the following, requesting sources...
I went looking, and found some online sources [3] [4] [5] [ [6] [7] [8], though none validate the notion that it was used in lieu of a full burial ceremony. Since that claim is made both here and in the Cherokee article, it would seem worth getting it right. Anyone have a source? -- Mwanner | Talk 14:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The Trail of Tears is the subject of a Chuck Norris fact. The fact describes the Trail of Tears as anywhere that Chuck Norris has been. Should this be mentioned? Scott Gall 01:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
why is it that the article states that Nunna daul isunyi is the cherokee language term for the trail, while the cherokee language article is given an entirely different name?- Kızılderili 07:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
There should be five separate Wikipedia articles for each tribal Removal. I am a registered citizen of the Cherokee Nation and have ancestors that were in the Removal. One of them was Collins McDonald, Assistant Conductor of the 10th wagon train conducted by George Hicks (Oct.1838-March,1839). The Cherokees have seized "Tail of Tears" as a brand name, to the detrement of the other four tribes. The Cherokee Removal was the last, largest, most publicized, and easiest of them. The term itself is probably of Choctaw origin, overheard and reused by a Cherokee Methodist Preacher in the late 19th century (see T.L. Ballenger, "Joseph Franklin Thompson: An Early Cherokee Leader," Chronicles of Oklahoma, 1952, Vol. 30, # 3). The death toll of 4000 seems chisled in stone in all reference works including Wikipedia, but the actual number was about 1200 (my own research). I would like to modify this page by 1) reducing the 4000 figure and explaining why; 2) noting the Choctaw orgin of "TOT"; 3) noting that Chief Ross and his brother Lewis "cooked the books" by adding 1600 phantom Cherokees to get extra Army expense money (they may has skimmed as much as $500.000); 4) debunking "The Birthday Story of Pvt John G. Burnett (his pension records show he had been discharged from the Tennessee militia one year BEFORE the Removal; the story has internal contredictions and was concocted by his son to gain veteran's benefits; and perhaps other matters possibly as controversial. The Burnett Story and the 4000 fatalities are urban legends attached to the Removal, and "Trail of Tears" is not only too emotive, but anacronistic. "Removal" was the term used by government and tribal officials alike at the time and is neutral in tone. I have researched the Cherokee Removal for several decades, which was only partly under Army coercion (in May-June, 1838) with the remainder voluntary or under Ross' direction. Observers of the Cherokee Removal include the Presbyterian missionary Daniel Butrick, the journalist/actor/composer John Howard Payne and an English-born geologist George Featherenstonhaugh (pronounced "Fanshaw") who was an Army spy. If I edit any of this material into the article, I will document and cite everything.( Oconostota ( talk) 14:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC))
There is a lot of good information in this article but it is heavily unbalanced in regard to the Cherokees. The Cherokee were not the only tribe relocated over the Trail of Tears. Nor were they first. Nor was their's necessarily the harshest journey. Nor did the term come from the Cherokee language. The term, for instance, comes from an Arkansas Gazette article quoting a Choctaw chief's statement about a "trail of tears and death". The statement was repeatedly quoted by other newspapers before becoming a general term for the trials of the other southern tribes as they were removed west.
It is just as important to know the background and history of the travails of the other tribes during their removals. For this reason I'm changing the Oklahoma Project rating to Stub for now and its importance to High. OKtag 19:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I have contemporarily interviewed a Cherokee Indian who had descendents on the "Trail of Tears". He was offended by my use of the term as we were disussing Native Americans. He said that his family and Elders told him that the Indians/Cherokees did not cry in the 1830's during the Indian Removal from Georgia: the white soldiers cried when they saw the pain, suffering and death of the Cherokee Indians due to their mistreatment, and that THAT is why it is called the Trail of "TEARS": white men's tears. Some of the older Cherokees stayed behind in Georgia to die on their land, or they married a white person to stay in Georgia. Others went on the "march" knowing they would not survive, giving their blanket to more feebler, older tribal members or babies, etc., There are many graves along the "Trail of Tears" and much lost history of these Peoples. Some of the US Calvary soldiers were kind and sympathetic but they had to follow the system, the same as concentration camp guards did in Nazi Germany. The previously honored and respected Cherokee Tribal Chiefs were given no special privileges or supplies or consideration and several of the Cherokee Chiefs died on the trip and were buried alongside the "trail". The Cherokees that did not assemble were pulled from their homes with babies and children in tow, leaving food cooking on the stove, and corralled into a fort. When some of them returned home quickly to get an item to take, white people had already moved into their home, even though a state lottery was later held to allocate the Cherokee's land to white settlers. The state of Georgia made assessments and valuations and tried to pay the individual Cherokees nominally for property, crops and businesses. I have seen hundreds of books, videos on VCR, reminiscences and other educational material on the Cherokees and this episode in history not listed or available in public libraries, that was collected by culturally aware organizations and individuals. I have traveled to the old home sites in Georgia, visited the sites of the forts and collection points, reviewed unpublished histories in local libraries, and traveled to Oklahoma several times. Further historical research can be done with tribal members' descendants living in Oklahoma, tribal histories/archives, and by attending pow-wows with a Medicine Man. Actual government documents and correspondence from the period are still available at the official Georgia State Archives - refer to 1835 to 1838, the counties involved, Indian Removal Act, Cherokee Indian census, land lottery, Department of Interior, Indian Affairs etc. 68.19.50.91 04:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)ProfEugen
The cherokee tribe was named after their first chief, Cherokee.
Moved from Wikipedia:Help desk#Trail of tears error
I am a Choctaw Indian from Oklahoma. Your description of the trail of tears is innacurate. The Cherokee were not the first to walk the trail of tears nor were they the first to use the term "trail of tears as the site implies. The Choctaw were the first tribe to be massivley relocated during removal, a Choctaw chief said when asked about his journey "It has been a trail of tears and death" The Cherokee were relocated after the Choctaw and are often associated with the trail because that is the tribe that non native people Identify themselves with. Choctaw, Seminole, Yuchi, Natchez, Chickasaw, and Muskogee Creek tribes NOT JUST THE CHEROKEE. Ant site that states that the trail of tears is specifically Cherokees first, only or that Cherokees Coined the term is inaccurate.
here are some sites: http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/studies/trailoftears.htm
http://www.cts.bia.edu/trail_of_tears/index.htm
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~mboucher/mikebouchweb/choctaw/trtears.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.4.216.115 ( talk) 16:40, June 21, 2007
Another more superficial but factual error is the identification of the first American Gold Rush as being in Georga in 1820s--the Reed gold discovery/rush in North Carolina predates it by 25 years. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.222.186.95 (
talk) 00:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There should be a general trail of tears article and a specific trail of tears article ... This article should be renamed to the Cherokee trail of tears since thats its main focus ... a Choctaw trail of tears can be developed along with other tribes. Rob ( talk) 16:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I have no desire to start any sort of soapbox culture war, but I have reverted this edit as overly POV. While there are exceptions, the majority of Native peoples of the Americas have no particular preference for one term over another (see here for the first ghit example). I see no compelling reason to change terminology at this point. -- MarcoTolo ( talk) 23:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Though it's easy to miss on the web, and the article you mention makes a good argument about it in reference to tribal members in general, I believe it is clearly and quickly becoming an issue with the Cherokee. I myself (Cherokee tribal member) use either term, but more and more often am "corrected" to say American Indian. In my work I interact daily with people of Cherokee blood. Although I agree that there may not be a reason to change terminology right now, I think this edit is only the first echoe of a very hot issue about to boil. Odestiny ( talk) 05:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I think who ever wrote this should put more into the climate and geographic history issues. Why didnt you put something like that in it. You know if you are a hot girl who is in 7th grade and has an essay to write about the climate, it is trully hard to find the info!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.175.160 ( talk) 23:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I tried to find estimates of how many from the southeast nations were relocated and survived. Since this is a locked article, here is something I would have added to the end of the introduction. By 1837, 46,000 Native Americans from these southeastern nations had been removed from their homelands thereby opening 25 million acres for settlement by whites and their slaves. ref> Indian removals 1814 - 1858 172.129.64.33 ( talk) 05:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
"including, for example, 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee" => "including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee"--
200.138.131.236 (
talk) 04:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Done Welcome and thanks for contributing. Celestra ( talk) 15:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how these two images came to be used on this article with all the great pictures available but I take issue with the one of Col George W. Pascal's daughter. First of all Pascal was not born a Cherokee, he married one and is known as a "scaliwag". Also Marcia is by his second wife who was not Cherokee. The Smithsonian may have catagorized these under Cherokee but that doesn't mean the people in the photos are. There are plenty of images by Curtis and others that would be better. And why the only two photos are not of full bloods? Odestiny ( talk) 03:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a small number (about 100) selected for the first week of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
The following request appears on that page:
Many of the articles were selected semi-automatically from a list of indefinitely semi-protected articles. Please confirm that the protection level appears to be still warranted, and consider unprotecting instead, before applying pending changes protection to the article. |
However with only a few hours to go, comments have only been made on two of the pages.
Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially.
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 20:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC).
Probably a technicality: Why are the 5 nations described as "autonomous" rather than "independent"? At least the Cherokee Nation had a constitution and a government. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
The page was missing an overview of the legal status of the five "Civilized Tribes" i.e. Nations at the time of the Trail of Tears, and the legal status (or lack thereof) for subsequent removal. So I added one. Most of it is sourced from Jahoda's history of the Trail of Tears, but feel free to add additional citations. Yclept:Berr ( talk) 17:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
This article makes frequent use of the word 'indian' to describe the Native Americans. Perhaps the usage should be modified to a more politically correct term. —Entropy ( T/ C) 08:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It's not just "politically correct", it's also geographically correct. India is no where near North America. The only reason they were called Indians is because Columbus was an idiot and thought he was in India. In any case, the way to resolve this is to look at the ternminology high quality sources use. My guess is that they use "Native Americans" or "indigenous people". After doing some more research, another valid option is to use "American Indian". In fact, since this seems to be about only the Cherokee people, "Cherokee people" or simply "Cherokee" are some other good choices. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC) |
Response to third opinion request: |
I would stick with the word Indian. The Native American might be politically correct, but it is long, ugly and uncomfortable for us, who live outside Canada and US.— Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 00:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC) |
Why not let the tribes in question decide? "Indian" is used term by all the tribes in question. Here's examples of the Five Tribes' websites making use of the term "Indian": Muscogee Creek Nation's website using the work "Indian.", Thlopthlocco Tribal Town, Alabama-Quassarte Tribal Town, Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, Chickasaw Nation, Cherokee Nation, and Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. The following federally recognized tribes were all relocated to Indian Territory and have "Indian" in their official name: Absentee-Shawnee Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Delaware Tribe of Indians, Kiowa Indian Tribe of Oklahoma, Otoe-Missouria Tribe of Indians, Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Ponca Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Quapaw Tribe of Indians, and the Tonkawa Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma. If any of these groups found the term "Indian" to be offensive, they wouldn't use it. Regarding the notion expressed above that "Indian" is incorrect, many indigenous people feel any term in English is going to be relatively incorrect. - Uyvsdi ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
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I found the paragraph in the Cherokee section on the New Echota treaty very confusing. It seems out of order chronologically. Also, these sentences don't seem to go together in a paragraph.
Suggested revisions: (additions, [deletions], comments/questions)
When signing the Treaty of New Echota in 1835 Major Ridge [had] said "I have signed my death warrant." [Now t] The resulting political turmoil led to the killings of Major Ridge, John Ridge, and Elias Boudinot; of the leaders of the Treaty Party, only Stand Watie escaped death.[32][33][34]
(perhaps move this to the end of the section)
Removed Cherokees initially settled near Tahlequah, Oklahoma. (==> and later settled where? <===)
The population of the Cherokee Nation eventually rebounded, and today the Cherokees are the largest American Indian group in the United States.[35]
CAreader ( talk) 17:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
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Dear established user,
In the paragraph titled "Terminology of forced relocation" the third to last sentence on the second paragraph reads "The marchers were subject to extortion and violence along the route." This sentence could be amended to include some specifics acts of violence. I am purposing that the following lines be added after this sentence above:
The sentences above were taken from Andrea Smith's 2005 work titled: Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide. South End Press
I would be glad to provide a photocopy of this page, attached to an email, verifying that these sentences were copied and cited correctly. Also, do let me know if I would need to obtain approval from the publisher or if it would be preferable for me to summarize the sentences and provide the source and page numbers.
Thank you for considering this edit and please let me know if I am writing this in the incorrect section of Wikipedia, this is my first attempt at contributing to Wikipedia.
yours,
Evan
Evans2012 ( talk) 07:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I've researched the widespread story of smallpox blankets given to the Cherokee and found no supporting documentation on it. Though thousands died during the removal west, there is no evidence of a major smallpox outbreak along the trail. In fact, the Cherokee population had been greatly reduced by several epidemics in the previous hundred years.
It is possible that the Trail of Tears story of smallpox blankets was adapted from writings of Ward Churchill, an ethnic studies professor at the University of Colorado. Churchhill fabricated a story in which the commander of Fort Clark North Dakota ordered a boatload of blankets shipped from a military smallpox infirmary in St. Louis. These were supposedly distributed to the Mandan Indians causing the (very real) high plains epedimic of 1837, the year before the Cherokee removal. Odestiny ( talk) 18:22, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
My edit note in the article was less than accurate, I meant to say the term was in little use in the plural until the Emancipation many decades later. As to the issue itself, I'm not finding a ref to support it - it appears to be political posturing intended to minimize the position of the slaves themselves or to otherwise soften our look back, especially in the formulation of "2,000 freedmen and slaves" as if there were some equality of numbers or position. The refs suggest that a Freedman's life under the Cherokee law of the time would almost be impossible. A better ref and a proper formulation are necessary. 12.144.158.7 ( talk) 18:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence of the second paragraph begins with "Many died and lots lived. including 60,000 of the 130,000 relocated Cherokee". Every source I can find places the Cherokee death toll at around 4,000 of 16,000 relocated.
http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/fast_facts/1830_fast_facts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_removal#Deaths_and_numbers
http://www.nps.gov/trte/historyculture/index.htm
http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/trail.html
http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/25652 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.159.70.212 ( talk) 01:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
It's also a very awkwardly worded sentence — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
204.111.160.35 (
talk) 23:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The full sentence is very convoluted: "Many died, including 60,000 of the 130,000 relocated Cherokee, intermarried and accompanying European-Americans, and the 2,000 African-American free blacks and slaves owned by the Cherokee they took with them." 188.223.140.153 ( talk) 14:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
"...and today the Cherokees are the largest American Indian group in the United States.[38]" -- According to Wikipedia there are about 140K Cherokee and over 300K Navajo. So is this figure accurate? BTW, the citation is a dead link so I couldn't verify it myself. 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
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The photograph, <Stephens.jpg>, is not verified and has no place being portrayed on this page. There is no evidence shown that the person represented has "Walked the Trail of Tears" or is even Cherokee. Please remove this photograph. Thank you. Waholi Gahnage' ( talk) 04:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
No source is cited for the fact about Jews participating. I found one article supporting the claim that one Jew was involved. http://forward.com/articles/159166/a-jew-on-the-trail-of-tears/?p=all. At best it should be changed to "(both Christians and a Jew). 508yoni ( talk) 10:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The Rationale for relocation section included this incomplete phrase: "Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote an account of Cherokee assimilation into the American culture, declaring his support of the Worcester" (added in oldid 653658304). It was accompanied by a source for the paragraph, but Emerson was not mentioned in the source. I moved the source link to the end of the previous sentence and added a "citation needed" template to the Emerson claim. I modified the incomplete phrase slightly to complete it as: "Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote an account of Cherokee assimilation into the American culture, declaring his support of the Worcester decision." I thought that this was the intended meaning of the original phrase, but without a source, I cannot know. I did a little research in an attempt to find either Emerson's account or a secondary source covering it, but could only find Emerson's letter to President Van Buren. Is this the implied source? I could not find any explicit mention of "assimilation" in the primary source, but did not have time to closely read through it. I will leave a message on the original contributor's talk page in case they can clarify this and provide a source. Kind regards, Matt Heard ( talk) 01:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
If 5 civilized tribes was the citizens of USA, how they was been removed and deprived of property? It's unlawful by constitution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.25.53.138 ( talk) 13:44, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
They weren't considered US Citizens at the time. They were technically allowed to stay put and apply for citizenship, but would have to assimilate. To stay part of the tribe, they were forced to leave.
(different person) Also, if I remember right (from reading about it, I obviously wasn't there lol) communal lands were divided up into individual lots as a condition of citizenship and as part of treaties forced on Indian peoples after manufactured wars. So then the now-individualised holdings were easy for developers to buy out 31.51.47.29 ( talk) 22:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
In this diff, Anmccaff ( talk · contribs) removed a picture from the article. The caption on the photo was "Portrait of Marcia Pascal, a young Cherokee woman. (1880)", which doesn't seem to be objectionable in the least, and seems to fit well into the text of the article. I don't have a strong opinion here, I'm just hoping that some other editors can take a look. Bradv 14:26, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I see my addition of " Native American Holocaust" has been contested and removed by Anmccaff for WP:NPOV issues, despite no commentary being made on the legitimacy of genocide claims. Surely the Wikipedia page discussing the genocide of Native Americans should be linked? The Trail of Tears is a pretty big part of that historiography, regardless of the legitimacy of genocide claims. Although, on second thoughts I would agree that " Native American genocide" would be a better term to add to the "See also" section – or even the more general Genocide of indigenous peoples page, the page to which all terms relating to this controversy redirect. HelgaStick ( talk) 21:32, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
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Hi there,
how can it be that the german aticle is much more detailed? Just take a look at the sources. Is the entlish one a victim of edit wars?
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Multiple edits with the intention of vandalism is occurring on the page. Mr Xaero ( talk) 15:55, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
The claimed death toll of 4,000 is directly contradicted by this article which claims that the actual records indicate a true death toll of between 447 and 840.
https://newsok.com/article/2217279/trail-of-tears-death-toll-myths-dispelled
The author also identifies the unreliable source of the 4,000 figure commonly quoted.
Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.167.232 ( talk) 16:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Been unable to discover anything about WR Higginbotham. Nevertheless his assertions are very specific: namely that the tribal and Federal records indicate a total death toll of no more than 840; whilst the claim of 4,000 was simply a guess made by one particular person. The claims are therefore capable of being checked and verified even if the author cannot. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.38.101 ( talk) 13:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
The Trails of Tears seems like a genocide according to scholars, and there is a link to a genocide article in "see also" but no direct reference is in this article. [1] Why isn't genocide mentioned in the body?
Here are more references:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Frmorrison ( talk • contribs)
The Trail of tears might seem 'like genocide' to some over-enthusiastic romantic writers but not to serious historians. Food, transport and medical services were provided by the US Government during the relocation- hardly suggestive of 'genocide'. Deaths, however tragic, were the clearly result of unanticipated bad weather, disease, and to some extent incompetence, not of malicious intent. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.116.194 ( talk) 12:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I spot checked a respected American History textbook used in U.S. high schools. America's History by Henretta et. al. Indian Removal and the Trail of Tears gets about 3 pages of coverage. The word genocide is not used at all. I would weakly support the removal of the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" from the infobox, and also weakly support the removal of the category "Native American genocide". I do not think this event meets the standard definition of a genocide, which google tells me is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". Or, if there are reliable sources that call this a genocide, then we should consider adding a paragraph to the "Terminology" section. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 21:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
If 1915 events was a genocide, there is nothing different in this event. Face with your own history first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.190.0.219 ( talk) 14:35, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
This statement cannot be true:
After two wars, many Seminoles were removed in 1832.
This cannot be true because the Second Seminole war did not start until 1835 and so there cannot have been two Seminole wars by 1832.
-- Tupelo the typo fixer ( talk) 23:05, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't call this genocide - but when you are forcibly removing one culture from an area, that you are populating with your own people - that is without doubt classic *Ethnic cleansing*. I don't know how you can justify it in any other way. In this case, they were removed in circumstances where many of them died along the way. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:35, 18 October 2021 (UTC) Wikipedia's own definition - "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous" pretty much directly applies to this situation, yet the phrase was apparently removed from the article. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Should the term "ethnic cleansing" be included in the inbfobox and the lede of the article? While I agree, the term genocide isn't appropriate, but according to Wikipedia - "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous". Pretty much, this is exactly what was happenning with the trail of tears. In this case, the native americans were forcibly removed the area, and replaced with a difference culture. That is without doubt classic *Ethnic cleansing*. I don't know how you can justify it in any other way. In this case, they were removed in circumstances where many of them died along the way.
HI all, I've raised this for discussion twice, and given two weeks for anyone to raise objections but there are none so far, so I'll go ahead and make the changes. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 23:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
References
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Gsajjwellman ( talk) 15:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
"Members of the so-called Five Civilized Tribes—the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations (including thousands of their black slaves[5]) were forcibly removed from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States to areas to the west of the Mississippi River that had been designated Indian Territory."
In your article " trail of tears" the five civilized tribes of the southeast the Cherokee, Muskogee(creek), Choctaw, Chickasaw and the Seminole, your article States that the tribes left with their slaves, that isn't an accurate statement the slaves did not belong to the tribes the slaves were in hiding from the white southerners with the civilized tribes. The tribes welcomed them into their tribes and made them part of their tribes they did not use them as slaves and the way you have it written in your article you make it sound as if they were the slaves of the tribes that needs to be corrected. Thank you, James Wellman Gsajjwellman ( talk) 15:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
In the trails of tears the Indian walked with the thousands of slaves of their own. Yes. Indians has black slaves too 2601:1C0:4401:6890:70BF:83F2:538A:FDA8 ( talk) 18:08, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Trail of Tears has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the infobox, set the empty date field to "1830 to 1850". 31.44.229.17 ( talk) 12:22, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Done uncontrovertial request complies with article content, dates in lead. Netherzone ( talk) 20:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Waterloo ,AL was the Last place the Cherokee walked freely.is this true? 2601:CE:8202:4D30:40D5:CA31:A89:314 ( talk) 17:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I apologise for cluttering the article history, I'm having a technical glitch where the page says my edit didn't publish, so I try again. Then I find that the edit actually did publish along with my re-attempted edits published as dummy edits. I've had this problem a couple times on this article, don't know why. But I'll be sure to check the article history if my edits fail to ensure that I don't continue to clutter the history in this way. Thanks Larataguera ( talk) 14:33, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article would benefit from having the most famous image related to the "Trail of Tears", painted by Robert Lindneux in 1942 and found all over the Internet, such as: [1]. The artist died in 1970 ( [2]); I don't know if we can use this image, but it would be nice.-- Kevin Myers 04:28, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)
This famous painting has a number of inaccuracies. For instance, there were NO Army guards for the 12 thousand-person wagon trains in the fall and winter of 1838-1839. Prior to this part of the Removal, Gen. Scott ordered the disarming of the Cherokees. There were enough wagons (their canvas tops were marked "C.N." i.e. "Cherokee Nation") for transport and few folks had to walk. Chief Ross purchased several hundred wagons and teams for the trip, then later charged the Army rental fees for them, even though they were sold for profit in Arkansas in 1839. Food, forage, and cold-weather clothing were furnished by Lewis Ross (brother of Chief Ross), and there were few complaints afterwards by Cherokees (but plenty of complaints about Army rations provided in Indian Territory in 1839). The wagon trains by-passed certain ferry sites to avoid being gouged by higher tolls.( Oconostota ( talk) 19:37, 24 June 2009 (UTC))
read the article, the people were forced to walk the entire length, many died along the way, death march seems rather appropriate, also considering that they were under military guard the entire time. " forced relocation" removes any reference to thier suffering, which is in itself a pov. Hence, Death March is appropriate. Gabrielsimon 02:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
As far as I can tell the problem with trying to understand the Cherokee's removal is that the whole thing was done half assed so there is not usual story for all of the Cherokees removals.
BTW you don't send people on a long trip with food that will go bad unless you want them to die. Someone(s) wanted the TOT to be a death march.
I have removed the supposed Unicode version of the Cherokee language version of "Trail of Tears" in the opening paragraph. It looked like this:
{{Unicode|Ꭸá¥áŽ§áŽ²á“ ᎠáᎬᎢ}}
I tried to turn that text into actual entities in &xXXXX; format, but as far as I can tell, it is corrupted and unusable. For example, that "Ž" turns into hex 17D, which is too large to fit into the lower two nibbles of the 2-byte Unicode representation. I'm not all that well versed in Unicode, though; maybe I'm just not understanding something.
I also removed "getsikahvda anegvi", which as far as I can tell has nothing to do with anything. :) If someone here knows otherwise, please let me know or correct the article; I am curious how that got in there! — HorsePunchKid→ 龜 00:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
User:Kevin Myers, not unreasonably, removed the following, requesting sources...
I went looking, and found some online sources [3] [4] [5] [ [6] [7] [8], though none validate the notion that it was used in lieu of a full burial ceremony. Since that claim is made both here and in the Cherokee article, it would seem worth getting it right. Anyone have a source? -- Mwanner | Talk 14:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The Trail of Tears is the subject of a Chuck Norris fact. The fact describes the Trail of Tears as anywhere that Chuck Norris has been. Should this be mentioned? Scott Gall 01:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
why is it that the article states that Nunna daul isunyi is the cherokee language term for the trail, while the cherokee language article is given an entirely different name?- Kızılderili 07:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
There should be five separate Wikipedia articles for each tribal Removal. I am a registered citizen of the Cherokee Nation and have ancestors that were in the Removal. One of them was Collins McDonald, Assistant Conductor of the 10th wagon train conducted by George Hicks (Oct.1838-March,1839). The Cherokees have seized "Tail of Tears" as a brand name, to the detrement of the other four tribes. The Cherokee Removal was the last, largest, most publicized, and easiest of them. The term itself is probably of Choctaw origin, overheard and reused by a Cherokee Methodist Preacher in the late 19th century (see T.L. Ballenger, "Joseph Franklin Thompson: An Early Cherokee Leader," Chronicles of Oklahoma, 1952, Vol. 30, # 3). The death toll of 4000 seems chisled in stone in all reference works including Wikipedia, but the actual number was about 1200 (my own research). I would like to modify this page by 1) reducing the 4000 figure and explaining why; 2) noting the Choctaw orgin of "TOT"; 3) noting that Chief Ross and his brother Lewis "cooked the books" by adding 1600 phantom Cherokees to get extra Army expense money (they may has skimmed as much as $500.000); 4) debunking "The Birthday Story of Pvt John G. Burnett (his pension records show he had been discharged from the Tennessee militia one year BEFORE the Removal; the story has internal contredictions and was concocted by his son to gain veteran's benefits; and perhaps other matters possibly as controversial. The Burnett Story and the 4000 fatalities are urban legends attached to the Removal, and "Trail of Tears" is not only too emotive, but anacronistic. "Removal" was the term used by government and tribal officials alike at the time and is neutral in tone. I have researched the Cherokee Removal for several decades, which was only partly under Army coercion (in May-June, 1838) with the remainder voluntary or under Ross' direction. Observers of the Cherokee Removal include the Presbyterian missionary Daniel Butrick, the journalist/actor/composer John Howard Payne and an English-born geologist George Featherenstonhaugh (pronounced "Fanshaw") who was an Army spy. If I edit any of this material into the article, I will document and cite everything.( Oconostota ( talk) 14:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC))
There is a lot of good information in this article but it is heavily unbalanced in regard to the Cherokees. The Cherokee were not the only tribe relocated over the Trail of Tears. Nor were they first. Nor was their's necessarily the harshest journey. Nor did the term come from the Cherokee language. The term, for instance, comes from an Arkansas Gazette article quoting a Choctaw chief's statement about a "trail of tears and death". The statement was repeatedly quoted by other newspapers before becoming a general term for the trials of the other southern tribes as they were removed west.
It is just as important to know the background and history of the travails of the other tribes during their removals. For this reason I'm changing the Oklahoma Project rating to Stub for now and its importance to High. OKtag 19:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I have contemporarily interviewed a Cherokee Indian who had descendents on the "Trail of Tears". He was offended by my use of the term as we were disussing Native Americans. He said that his family and Elders told him that the Indians/Cherokees did not cry in the 1830's during the Indian Removal from Georgia: the white soldiers cried when they saw the pain, suffering and death of the Cherokee Indians due to their mistreatment, and that THAT is why it is called the Trail of "TEARS": white men's tears. Some of the older Cherokees stayed behind in Georgia to die on their land, or they married a white person to stay in Georgia. Others went on the "march" knowing they would not survive, giving their blanket to more feebler, older tribal members or babies, etc., There are many graves along the "Trail of Tears" and much lost history of these Peoples. Some of the US Calvary soldiers were kind and sympathetic but they had to follow the system, the same as concentration camp guards did in Nazi Germany. The previously honored and respected Cherokee Tribal Chiefs were given no special privileges or supplies or consideration and several of the Cherokee Chiefs died on the trip and were buried alongside the "trail". The Cherokees that did not assemble were pulled from their homes with babies and children in tow, leaving food cooking on the stove, and corralled into a fort. When some of them returned home quickly to get an item to take, white people had already moved into their home, even though a state lottery was later held to allocate the Cherokee's land to white settlers. The state of Georgia made assessments and valuations and tried to pay the individual Cherokees nominally for property, crops and businesses. I have seen hundreds of books, videos on VCR, reminiscences and other educational material on the Cherokees and this episode in history not listed or available in public libraries, that was collected by culturally aware organizations and individuals. I have traveled to the old home sites in Georgia, visited the sites of the forts and collection points, reviewed unpublished histories in local libraries, and traveled to Oklahoma several times. Further historical research can be done with tribal members' descendants living in Oklahoma, tribal histories/archives, and by attending pow-wows with a Medicine Man. Actual government documents and correspondence from the period are still available at the official Georgia State Archives - refer to 1835 to 1838, the counties involved, Indian Removal Act, Cherokee Indian census, land lottery, Department of Interior, Indian Affairs etc. 68.19.50.91 04:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)ProfEugen
The cherokee tribe was named after their first chief, Cherokee.
Moved from Wikipedia:Help desk#Trail of tears error
I am a Choctaw Indian from Oklahoma. Your description of the trail of tears is innacurate. The Cherokee were not the first to walk the trail of tears nor were they the first to use the term "trail of tears as the site implies. The Choctaw were the first tribe to be massivley relocated during removal, a Choctaw chief said when asked about his journey "It has been a trail of tears and death" The Cherokee were relocated after the Choctaw and are often associated with the trail because that is the tribe that non native people Identify themselves with. Choctaw, Seminole, Yuchi, Natchez, Chickasaw, and Muskogee Creek tribes NOT JUST THE CHEROKEE. Ant site that states that the trail of tears is specifically Cherokees first, only or that Cherokees Coined the term is inaccurate.
here are some sites: http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/studies/trailoftears.htm
http://www.cts.bia.edu/trail_of_tears/index.htm
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~mboucher/mikebouchweb/choctaw/trtears.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.4.216.115 ( talk) 16:40, June 21, 2007
Another more superficial but factual error is the identification of the first American Gold Rush as being in Georga in 1820s--the Reed gold discovery/rush in North Carolina predates it by 25 years. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.222.186.95 (
talk) 00:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There should be a general trail of tears article and a specific trail of tears article ... This article should be renamed to the Cherokee trail of tears since thats its main focus ... a Choctaw trail of tears can be developed along with other tribes. Rob ( talk) 16:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I have no desire to start any sort of soapbox culture war, but I have reverted this edit as overly POV. While there are exceptions, the majority of Native peoples of the Americas have no particular preference for one term over another (see here for the first ghit example). I see no compelling reason to change terminology at this point. -- MarcoTolo ( talk) 23:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Though it's easy to miss on the web, and the article you mention makes a good argument about it in reference to tribal members in general, I believe it is clearly and quickly becoming an issue with the Cherokee. I myself (Cherokee tribal member) use either term, but more and more often am "corrected" to say American Indian. In my work I interact daily with people of Cherokee blood. Although I agree that there may not be a reason to change terminology right now, I think this edit is only the first echoe of a very hot issue about to boil. Odestiny ( talk) 05:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
I think who ever wrote this should put more into the climate and geographic history issues. Why didnt you put something like that in it. You know if you are a hot girl who is in 7th grade and has an essay to write about the climate, it is trully hard to find the info!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.175.160 ( talk) 23:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I tried to find estimates of how many from the southeast nations were relocated and survived. Since this is a locked article, here is something I would have added to the end of the introduction. By 1837, 46,000 Native Americans from these southeastern nations had been removed from their homelands thereby opening 25 million acres for settlement by whites and their slaves. ref> Indian removals 1814 - 1858 172.129.64.33 ( talk) 05:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
"including, for example, 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee" => "including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee"--
200.138.131.236 (
talk) 04:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Done Welcome and thanks for contributing. Celestra ( talk) 15:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how these two images came to be used on this article with all the great pictures available but I take issue with the one of Col George W. Pascal's daughter. First of all Pascal was not born a Cherokee, he married one and is known as a "scaliwag". Also Marcia is by his second wife who was not Cherokee. The Smithsonian may have catagorized these under Cherokee but that doesn't mean the people in the photos are. There are plenty of images by Curtis and others that would be better. And why the only two photos are not of full bloods? Odestiny ( talk) 03:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a small number (about 100) selected for the first week of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
The following request appears on that page:
Many of the articles were selected semi-automatically from a list of indefinitely semi-protected articles. Please confirm that the protection level appears to be still warranted, and consider unprotecting instead, before applying pending changes protection to the article. |
However with only a few hours to go, comments have only been made on two of the pages.
Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially.
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 20:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC).
Probably a technicality: Why are the 5 nations described as "autonomous" rather than "independent"? At least the Cherokee Nation had a constitution and a government. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
The page was missing an overview of the legal status of the five "Civilized Tribes" i.e. Nations at the time of the Trail of Tears, and the legal status (or lack thereof) for subsequent removal. So I added one. Most of it is sourced from Jahoda's history of the Trail of Tears, but feel free to add additional citations. Yclept:Berr ( talk) 17:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
This article makes frequent use of the word 'indian' to describe the Native Americans. Perhaps the usage should be modified to a more politically correct term. —Entropy ( T/ C) 08:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request: |
It's not just "politically correct", it's also geographically correct. India is no where near North America. The only reason they were called Indians is because Columbus was an idiot and thought he was in India. In any case, the way to resolve this is to look at the ternminology high quality sources use. My guess is that they use "Native Americans" or "indigenous people". After doing some more research, another valid option is to use "American Indian". In fact, since this seems to be about only the Cherokee people, "Cherokee people" or simply "Cherokee" are some other good choices. A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC) |
Response to third opinion request: |
I would stick with the word Indian. The Native American might be politically correct, but it is long, ugly and uncomfortable for us, who live outside Canada and US.— Dmitrij D. Czarkoff ( talk) 00:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC) |
Why not let the tribes in question decide? "Indian" is used term by all the tribes in question. Here's examples of the Five Tribes' websites making use of the term "Indian": Muscogee Creek Nation's website using the work "Indian.", Thlopthlocco Tribal Town, Alabama-Quassarte Tribal Town, Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, Chickasaw Nation, Cherokee Nation, and Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma. The following federally recognized tribes were all relocated to Indian Territory and have "Indian" in their official name: Absentee-Shawnee Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Delaware Tribe of Indians, Kiowa Indian Tribe of Oklahoma, Otoe-Missouria Tribe of Indians, Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Ponca Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma, Quapaw Tribe of Indians, and the Tonkawa Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma. If any of these groups found the term "Indian" to be offensive, they wouldn't use it. Regarding the notion expressed above that "Indian" is incorrect, many indigenous people feel any term in English is going to be relatively incorrect. - Uyvsdi ( talk) 18:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
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I found the paragraph in the Cherokee section on the New Echota treaty very confusing. It seems out of order chronologically. Also, these sentences don't seem to go together in a paragraph.
Suggested revisions: (additions, [deletions], comments/questions)
When signing the Treaty of New Echota in 1835 Major Ridge [had] said "I have signed my death warrant." [Now t] The resulting political turmoil led to the killings of Major Ridge, John Ridge, and Elias Boudinot; of the leaders of the Treaty Party, only Stand Watie escaped death.[32][33][34]
(perhaps move this to the end of the section)
Removed Cherokees initially settled near Tahlequah, Oklahoma. (==> and later settled where? <===)
The population of the Cherokee Nation eventually rebounded, and today the Cherokees are the largest American Indian group in the United States.[35]
CAreader ( talk) 17:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
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Dear established user,
In the paragraph titled "Terminology of forced relocation" the third to last sentence on the second paragraph reads "The marchers were subject to extortion and violence along the route." This sentence could be amended to include some specifics acts of violence. I am purposing that the following lines be added after this sentence above:
The sentences above were taken from Andrea Smith's 2005 work titled: Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide. South End Press
I would be glad to provide a photocopy of this page, attached to an email, verifying that these sentences were copied and cited correctly. Also, do let me know if I would need to obtain approval from the publisher or if it would be preferable for me to summarize the sentences and provide the source and page numbers.
Thank you for considering this edit and please let me know if I am writing this in the incorrect section of Wikipedia, this is my first attempt at contributing to Wikipedia.
yours,
Evan
Evans2012 ( talk) 07:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
I've researched the widespread story of smallpox blankets given to the Cherokee and found no supporting documentation on it. Though thousands died during the removal west, there is no evidence of a major smallpox outbreak along the trail. In fact, the Cherokee population had been greatly reduced by several epidemics in the previous hundred years.
It is possible that the Trail of Tears story of smallpox blankets was adapted from writings of Ward Churchill, an ethnic studies professor at the University of Colorado. Churchhill fabricated a story in which the commander of Fort Clark North Dakota ordered a boatload of blankets shipped from a military smallpox infirmary in St. Louis. These were supposedly distributed to the Mandan Indians causing the (very real) high plains epedimic of 1837, the year before the Cherokee removal. Odestiny ( talk) 18:22, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
My edit note in the article was less than accurate, I meant to say the term was in little use in the plural until the Emancipation many decades later. As to the issue itself, I'm not finding a ref to support it - it appears to be political posturing intended to minimize the position of the slaves themselves or to otherwise soften our look back, especially in the formulation of "2,000 freedmen and slaves" as if there were some equality of numbers or position. The refs suggest that a Freedman's life under the Cherokee law of the time would almost be impossible. A better ref and a proper formulation are necessary. 12.144.158.7 ( talk) 18:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
The second sentence of the second paragraph begins with "Many died and lots lived. including 60,000 of the 130,000 relocated Cherokee". Every source I can find places the Cherokee death toll at around 4,000 of 16,000 relocated.
http://www.census.gov/history/www/through_the_decades/fast_facts/1830_fast_facts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_removal#Deaths_and_numbers
http://www.nps.gov/trte/historyculture/index.htm
http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/trail.html
http://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/25652 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.159.70.212 ( talk) 01:28, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
It's also a very awkwardly worded sentence — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
204.111.160.35 (
talk) 23:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
The full sentence is very convoluted: "Many died, including 60,000 of the 130,000 relocated Cherokee, intermarried and accompanying European-Americans, and the 2,000 African-American free blacks and slaves owned by the Cherokee they took with them." 188.223.140.153 ( talk) 14:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
"...and today the Cherokees are the largest American Indian group in the United States.[38]" -- According to Wikipedia there are about 140K Cherokee and over 300K Navajo. So is this figure accurate? BTW, the citation is a dead link so I couldn't verify it myself. 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC) 24.22.26.53 ( talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
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The photograph, <Stephens.jpg>, is not verified and has no place being portrayed on this page. There is no evidence shown that the person represented has "Walked the Trail of Tears" or is even Cherokee. Please remove this photograph. Thank you. Waholi Gahnage' ( talk) 04:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
No source is cited for the fact about Jews participating. I found one article supporting the claim that one Jew was involved. http://forward.com/articles/159166/a-jew-on-the-trail-of-tears/?p=all. At best it should be changed to "(both Christians and a Jew). 508yoni ( talk) 10:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The Rationale for relocation section included this incomplete phrase: "Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote an account of Cherokee assimilation into the American culture, declaring his support of the Worcester" (added in oldid 653658304). It was accompanied by a source for the paragraph, but Emerson was not mentioned in the source. I moved the source link to the end of the previous sentence and added a "citation needed" template to the Emerson claim. I modified the incomplete phrase slightly to complete it as: "Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote an account of Cherokee assimilation into the American culture, declaring his support of the Worcester decision." I thought that this was the intended meaning of the original phrase, but without a source, I cannot know. I did a little research in an attempt to find either Emerson's account or a secondary source covering it, but could only find Emerson's letter to President Van Buren. Is this the implied source? I could not find any explicit mention of "assimilation" in the primary source, but did not have time to closely read through it. I will leave a message on the original contributor's talk page in case they can clarify this and provide a source. Kind regards, Matt Heard ( talk) 01:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
If 5 civilized tribes was the citizens of USA, how they was been removed and deprived of property? It's unlawful by constitution/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.25.53.138 ( talk) 13:44, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
They weren't considered US Citizens at the time. They were technically allowed to stay put and apply for citizenship, but would have to assimilate. To stay part of the tribe, they were forced to leave.
(different person) Also, if I remember right (from reading about it, I obviously wasn't there lol) communal lands were divided up into individual lots as a condition of citizenship and as part of treaties forced on Indian peoples after manufactured wars. So then the now-individualised holdings were easy for developers to buy out 31.51.47.29 ( talk) 22:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
In this diff, Anmccaff ( talk · contribs) removed a picture from the article. The caption on the photo was "Portrait of Marcia Pascal, a young Cherokee woman. (1880)", which doesn't seem to be objectionable in the least, and seems to fit well into the text of the article. I don't have a strong opinion here, I'm just hoping that some other editors can take a look. Bradv 14:26, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I see my addition of " Native American Holocaust" has been contested and removed by Anmccaff for WP:NPOV issues, despite no commentary being made on the legitimacy of genocide claims. Surely the Wikipedia page discussing the genocide of Native Americans should be linked? The Trail of Tears is a pretty big part of that historiography, regardless of the legitimacy of genocide claims. Although, on second thoughts I would agree that " Native American genocide" would be a better term to add to the "See also" section – or even the more general Genocide of indigenous peoples page, the page to which all terms relating to this controversy redirect. HelgaStick ( talk) 21:32, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
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Hi there,
how can it be that the german aticle is much more detailed? Just take a look at the sources. Is the entlish one a victim of edit wars?
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Multiple edits with the intention of vandalism is occurring on the page. Mr Xaero ( talk) 15:55, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
The claimed death toll of 4,000 is directly contradicted by this article which claims that the actual records indicate a true death toll of between 447 and 840.
https://newsok.com/article/2217279/trail-of-tears-death-toll-myths-dispelled
The author also identifies the unreliable source of the 4,000 figure commonly quoted.
Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.167.232 ( talk) 16:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Been unable to discover anything about WR Higginbotham. Nevertheless his assertions are very specific: namely that the tribal and Federal records indicate a total death toll of no more than 840; whilst the claim of 4,000 was simply a guess made by one particular person. The claims are therefore capable of being checked and verified even if the author cannot. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.38.101 ( talk) 13:58, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
The Trails of Tears seems like a genocide according to scholars, and there is a link to a genocide article in "see also" but no direct reference is in this article. [1] Why isn't genocide mentioned in the body?
Here are more references:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Frmorrison ( talk • contribs)
The Trail of tears might seem 'like genocide' to some over-enthusiastic romantic writers but not to serious historians. Food, transport and medical services were provided by the US Government during the relocation- hardly suggestive of 'genocide'. Deaths, however tragic, were the clearly result of unanticipated bad weather, disease, and to some extent incompetence, not of malicious intent. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.116.194 ( talk) 12:17, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
I spot checked a respected American History textbook used in U.S. high schools. America's History by Henretta et. al. Indian Removal and the Trail of Tears gets about 3 pages of coverage. The word genocide is not used at all. I would weakly support the removal of the words "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" from the infobox, and also weakly support the removal of the category "Native American genocide". I do not think this event meets the standard definition of a genocide, which google tells me is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group". Or, if there are reliable sources that call this a genocide, then we should consider adding a paragraph to the "Terminology" section. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 21:49, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
If 1915 events was a genocide, there is nothing different in this event. Face with your own history first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.190.0.219 ( talk) 14:35, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
This statement cannot be true:
After two wars, many Seminoles were removed in 1832.
This cannot be true because the Second Seminole war did not start until 1835 and so there cannot have been two Seminole wars by 1832.
-- Tupelo the typo fixer ( talk) 23:05, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't call this genocide - but when you are forcibly removing one culture from an area, that you are populating with your own people - that is without doubt classic *Ethnic cleansing*. I don't know how you can justify it in any other way. In this case, they were removed in circumstances where many of them died along the way. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:35, 18 October 2021 (UTC) Wikipedia's own definition - "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous" pretty much directly applies to this situation, yet the phrase was apparently removed from the article. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 12:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
Should the term "ethnic cleansing" be included in the inbfobox and the lede of the article? While I agree, the term genocide isn't appropriate, but according to Wikipedia - "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous". Pretty much, this is exactly what was happenning with the trail of tears. In this case, the native americans were forcibly removed the area, and replaced with a difference culture. That is without doubt classic *Ethnic cleansing*. I don't know how you can justify it in any other way. In this case, they were removed in circumstances where many of them died along the way.
HI all, I've raised this for discussion twice, and given two weeks for anyone to raise objections but there are none so far, so I'll go ahead and make the changes. Deathlibrarian ( talk) 23:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
References
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 15 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aneysajoleen.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Trail of Tears has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Gsajjwellman ( talk) 15:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
"Members of the so-called Five Civilized Tribes—the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations (including thousands of their black slaves[5]) were forcibly removed from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States to areas to the west of the Mississippi River that had been designated Indian Territory."
In your article " trail of tears" the five civilized tribes of the southeast the Cherokee, Muskogee(creek), Choctaw, Chickasaw and the Seminole, your article States that the tribes left with their slaves, that isn't an accurate statement the slaves did not belong to the tribes the slaves were in hiding from the white southerners with the civilized tribes. The tribes welcomed them into their tribes and made them part of their tribes they did not use them as slaves and the way you have it written in your article you make it sound as if they were the slaves of the tribes that needs to be corrected. Thank you, James Wellman Gsajjwellman ( talk) 15:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
In the trails of tears the Indian walked with the thousands of slaves of their own. Yes. Indians has black slaves too 2601:1C0:4401:6890:70BF:83F2:538A:FDA8 ( talk) 18:08, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Trail of Tears has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the infobox, set the empty date field to "1830 to 1850". 31.44.229.17 ( talk) 12:22, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Done uncontrovertial request complies with article content, dates in lead. Netherzone ( talk) 20:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
I read somewhere that Waterloo ,AL was the Last place the Cherokee walked freely.is this true? 2601:CE:8202:4D30:40D5:CA31:A89:314 ( talk) 17:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I apologise for cluttering the article history, I'm having a technical glitch where the page says my edit didn't publish, so I try again. Then I find that the edit actually did publish along with my re-attempted edits published as dummy edits. I've had this problem a couple times on this article, don't know why. But I'll be sure to check the article history if my edits fail to ensure that I don't continue to clutter the history in this way. Thanks Larataguera ( talk) 14:33, 8 December 2022 (UTC)