This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 23:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – To reflect the fact that there are multiple different faiths that were developed and are practiced on the continent. Middayexpress ( talk) 19:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, there's a point now, that we got scholarly views, opinions, that it's only one religion, but different denominations, culture, etc. Bladesmulti ( talk) 07:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
I would especially like to direct you to the section titled "'Unity in Diversity'-Tradition and Plurality in ATR," pp. 145-151, in it he gives a good summary of the arguments on this specific issue by various scholars (leading him to support the singular designation).
And so on, and so on, and so on, and so forth...
In comparison, can you direct us to books that use "African Traditional Religions" in their title? I have been able to find very few in comparison. How can it at all be confusing when it is used in the titles of hundreds of books written over decades while the plural, in comparison, has not? Regards, Andajara120000 ( talk) 13:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Most of those works above likely use "African traditional religion" in the plural sense (like "African cuisine), not in the monolithic Africa-only-has-one-religion sense. That said, "Traditional African religions" has 743,000 Google hits [3] versus 457,000 for "Traditional African religion" [4]. "African traditional religion", on the other hand, only has 113,000 hits [5]. "Traditional African religions" is thus indeed by far the commonname. Middayexpress ( talk) 14:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
513,000 for "religion", and 881,000 for "religions". Not too coherent, as there are probably more search results that supports the controversial 9-11 inside job theory than the official one. Bladesmulti ( talk) 14:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Guys, WP:COMMONNAME is the relevant naming convention policy here. Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are single religions; very large ones, yes, but still single religions whose branches ultimately have common origins. This isn't so with many of the hundreds of different traditional religions practiced in Africa. Very few mainstream sources assert that they all stem from or belong to a single faith. That includes most of the works titled "African traditional religion" themselves. Middayexpress ( talk) 14:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
I also think the title should stay in the singular. 'Andajara120000' posted above many book titles using the singular form. Here's a couple of quote from books about that subject:The individual expressions may be different, but a general similarity prevails throughout the continent, so that we may speak of African Traditional Religion in the singular. -African Traditional Religion in Biblical Perspective
By Richard J. Gehman
While scholars remain divided on the views emanating from Mbiti and Idowu, recent scholarship pervasively embraces the use of African Traditional Religion in the singular. These scholars contend that the common world-view within these religions, as well as the similarity in rituals, belief-systems, value formulations, and institutional formation across the vast African continent, provide a basic and firm foundation for maintaining the reference to a singular form in referring to African traditional religions even while accepting and acknowledging (contemporaneously) the existence of a burgeoning number of denominations. -A Companion to African American History edited by Alton Hornsby, Jr.
Most scholars are beginning to see that there is more weight in the argument that the existence of a common world-view as well as the similarities in the belief systems, ritual forms, values and institutions across the various regions of the continent, provide sufficient base for keeping the singular form of the name. - From Death and After-life Rituals in the Eyes of the Shona by Canisius Mwandayi
So basically, those quotes point out that recent scholarship mostly support the use of the singular form. DrLewisphd ( talk) 20:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
The obvious references to Animism are strangely absent. -- Amaruca ( talk) 09:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I am creating a portal for this topic ( Portal|Traditional African religion) before finally disappearing again from Wiki. I admit it is long overdue and any help or recommendations would be appreciated. We particular need to decide on an image link for the portal before I finish it and submit a template request with the portal team. Regards. Tamsier ( talk) 20:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move unopposed ( non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk) 00:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – This article isn't talking about a single religion, but rather a collection of different religions, that are indigenous to the African continent. It seem wrong to use singular "religion", when other articles discussing groups of religions (such as: Western religions, Abrahamic religions, etc.) are plural. Jamie Tubers ( talk) 23:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Someone in their wisdom have taken off the lead. I don't know what happened here. Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 00:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm a student of comparative religions from Nigeria and I so much, in high esteem respect your article on African traditional religion, but there is just one thing there. "Ase" is a Yoruba word and it is never spelt as Ashe. Thanks very much. Maximilian Kastro ( talk) 21:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Find a source that says this and the change will likely be made. It is my understanding that westerners sometimes spell it as "Ashe". Hesnotblack ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdraw. For now. There is some confusion that needs to be sorted out through discussion. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:05, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Traditional African religions → Traditional African religion – The RM was closed as "unopposed" though there were no votes and there was no discussion. [6] Check the previous RM at Talk:Traditional African religions/Archive 3#Requested move 2. The discussion from 2013 was lengthy and it thoroughly debunked the argument that was used in the RM from 8 November 2016. The editor who carried out the last RM has no issue with this requested reversal. [7] OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
References that define the religion as "Traditional African religion":
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1=
and |2=
(
help)OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 19:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
"African Traditional religion" has been used very often as title of the books (list copied from the
archived discussion).
|
---|
|
Can someone please rename the portal as per the above discussion? Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 17:15, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Bearcat and SMcCandlish: Christianity, Islam, and many other religions don't refer to one particular sect or denomination or belief either. They have many branches. In case you might have not noticed, I had mentioned "African Traditional Religion" above which Kwamikagami has already referred as "perfectly correct". Whether this refers to one thing or multiple, that should not be a issue for RM because the RM was about what is more WP:COMMON name.
"Traditional African religion" is clearly a more common name when we compare it with "Traditional African religions". "African Traditional Religion" is about 50 times more common term than "Traditional African religions" according to Google. The page was originally titled as "African tradition religion" until Kwamikagami modified the title from "African traditional religion" to "Traditional African religion" in 2011. [32] To say that this title refers to only one religion is definitely WP:OR. African Traditional Religion, means "i.e. African religious beliefs and the underlying force of African cultural practices." [33] I can discover more sources. Not only the raw Google results but those of Google Books, JSTOR, Google Scholars, affirm that "African Traditional Religion" is the most common term. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:22, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
OccultZone, your comparison to Islam and Xanity suggests you believe this to be a religion, which is precisely why we should *not* move it. By "correct" I just meant that your phrasing could be used generically. A better comparison would be e.g. "Asian religion", which doesn't imply that Hinduism and Islam are sects of an Asian religion. Unfortunately, giving many people's ignorance, "African religion" is going to be read as meaning that there is an African religion. — kwami ( talk) 23:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Traditional African religions is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Traditional African religions until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 08:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
These IPs keeps vandalising this article here, here and and here. I've reverted them, but can this article be semi protected or block these IPs? Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 23:07, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Notes 22, 27, and 30 are for the same link: https://worldhistoryconnected.press.uillinois.edu/2.1/ehret.html 22 and 30 do not work, leading to a 404 page. There is an added comma at the end of the url that causes this to happen. Also, if the notes are all from the same source, shouldn't they be under one number? It is also a primary source, and therefore not as reliable as a secondary source.
Sora360 ( talk) 13:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm ( talk) 21:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Traditional African religions → African religions – This is a great article. However, it's better titled as "African religions" rather than "African traditional religions" because the word "tradition" brings with it meanings such as old, outdated, customary and yet not verifiable, primitive and so forth. Take Christianity in Ethiopia for example. It was practiced since two thousand years ago. It's quite old. And yet it doesn't get the "traditional" label applied to it. Judaism is even much older. Again, it's not referred to as "traditional religion in Israel" - it's simply "Judaism". The distinction between African religions discussed in this article and other religions (primarily Abrahamic religions in Africa) is that African religions were created in Africa whereas it is widely accepted that the others were created elsewhere. Besides that difference, both groups of religions are old (traditional) and have continued to evolve to this day (modern). The other point is that some of the African religions have been orally transferred. But this is not true of every African religion. So the title "Oral African religions" isn't accurate either. It's impossible to find an attribute that applies to all these religions except them being African. I think we should just stick to "African religions". 86.11.149.51 ( talk) 19:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
There is nothing here it's not good 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔😡😡😠😠 41.80.98.117 ( talk) 18:46, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2018 and 14 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jermaine.hassell.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Traditional religions in East Africa 197.239.5.174 ( talk) 19:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
what is it 41.116.63.82 ( talk) 07:51, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
The following claim has no attribution: "It is suggested that most ancient traditional African religions, like most other indigenous folk religions around the world, were strictly polytheistic and lacked the belief in monotheistic concepts, such as a single supreme creator god."
Who has suggested this? When I look up specific religious traditions, many, perhaps a majority, of them do have a single creator God. The article later cites Olupona arguing that "monotheism" is an inappropriate category for traditional African religions, but he doesn't claim that most African religions lacked belief in a creator, only that not all possessed such a belief. Amandil101 ( talk) 23:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Follow the syllabus 102.87.171.112 ( talk) 08:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
African weeding customs 41.114.55.43 ( talk) 18:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In African Traditional ReligoRe there is a belief in a Supreme Being . However worshipper don't claim to have seen touched,smelled,heard or had any kind of physical contact with the supreme being who is seen as very remoted and who doesn't play an important part in religious practices and beliefs.But since African is a large continent with many ethinc group and culture,there is not one single technique of casting divination.The practices of casting may be done with small objects,suc s as bones cowrie shells stone,strips and leather or flat piece of woods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.113.37.224 ( talk) 11:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
am i missing something here?
Why is there no detail on any Angolan ones, or regional ones IN Angola?
A bit of consultation / research might find some cross-over detail. There must be at least a few professors sitting around twiddling their thumbs that'd have a spare 1/2 hour or so to rattle off a few with a quote or two from a book off-the-shelf. 120.21.60.236 ( talk) 17:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
The result of the proposal was not moved. -- BDD ( talk) 23:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – To reflect the fact that there are multiple different faiths that were developed and are practiced on the continent. Middayexpress ( talk) 19:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, there's a point now, that we got scholarly views, opinions, that it's only one religion, but different denominations, culture, etc. Bladesmulti ( talk) 07:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
I would especially like to direct you to the section titled "'Unity in Diversity'-Tradition and Plurality in ATR," pp. 145-151, in it he gives a good summary of the arguments on this specific issue by various scholars (leading him to support the singular designation).
And so on, and so on, and so on, and so forth...
In comparison, can you direct us to books that use "African Traditional Religions" in their title? I have been able to find very few in comparison. How can it at all be confusing when it is used in the titles of hundreds of books written over decades while the plural, in comparison, has not? Regards, Andajara120000 ( talk) 13:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Most of those works above likely use "African traditional religion" in the plural sense (like "African cuisine), not in the monolithic Africa-only-has-one-religion sense. That said, "Traditional African religions" has 743,000 Google hits [3] versus 457,000 for "Traditional African religion" [4]. "African traditional religion", on the other hand, only has 113,000 hits [5]. "Traditional African religions" is thus indeed by far the commonname. Middayexpress ( talk) 14:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
513,000 for "religion", and 881,000 for "religions". Not too coherent, as there are probably more search results that supports the controversial 9-11 inside job theory than the official one. Bladesmulti ( talk) 14:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Guys, WP:COMMONNAME is the relevant naming convention policy here. Islam, Christianity and Hinduism are single religions; very large ones, yes, but still single religions whose branches ultimately have common origins. This isn't so with many of the hundreds of different traditional religions practiced in Africa. Very few mainstream sources assert that they all stem from or belong to a single faith. That includes most of the works titled "African traditional religion" themselves. Middayexpress ( talk) 14:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
I also think the title should stay in the singular. 'Andajara120000' posted above many book titles using the singular form. Here's a couple of quote from books about that subject:The individual expressions may be different, but a general similarity prevails throughout the continent, so that we may speak of African Traditional Religion in the singular. -African Traditional Religion in Biblical Perspective
By Richard J. Gehman
While scholars remain divided on the views emanating from Mbiti and Idowu, recent scholarship pervasively embraces the use of African Traditional Religion in the singular. These scholars contend that the common world-view within these religions, as well as the similarity in rituals, belief-systems, value formulations, and institutional formation across the vast African continent, provide a basic and firm foundation for maintaining the reference to a singular form in referring to African traditional religions even while accepting and acknowledging (contemporaneously) the existence of a burgeoning number of denominations. -A Companion to African American History edited by Alton Hornsby, Jr.
Most scholars are beginning to see that there is more weight in the argument that the existence of a common world-view as well as the similarities in the belief systems, ritual forms, values and institutions across the various regions of the continent, provide sufficient base for keeping the singular form of the name. - From Death and After-life Rituals in the Eyes of the Shona by Canisius Mwandayi
So basically, those quotes point out that recent scholarship mostly support the use of the singular form. DrLewisphd ( talk) 20:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
The obvious references to Animism are strangely absent. -- Amaruca ( talk) 09:32, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
I am creating a portal for this topic ( Portal|Traditional African religion) before finally disappearing again from Wiki. I admit it is long overdue and any help or recommendations would be appreciated. We particular need to decide on an image link for the portal before I finish it and submit a template request with the portal team. Regards. Tamsier ( talk) 20:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move unopposed ( non-admin closure) — Andy W. ( talk) 00:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
Traditional African religion → Traditional African religions – This article isn't talking about a single religion, but rather a collection of different religions, that are indigenous to the African continent. It seem wrong to use singular "religion", when other articles discussing groups of religions (such as: Western religions, Abrahamic religions, etc.) are plural. Jamie Tubers ( talk) 23:41, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Someone in their wisdom have taken off the lead. I don't know what happened here. Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 00:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm a student of comparative religions from Nigeria and I so much, in high esteem respect your article on African traditional religion, but there is just one thing there. "Ase" is a Yoruba word and it is never spelt as Ashe. Thanks very much. Maximilian Kastro ( talk) 21:44, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Find a source that says this and the change will likely be made. It is my understanding that westerners sometimes spell it as "Ashe". Hesnotblack ( talk) 10:02, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Withdraw. For now. There is some confusion that needs to be sorted out through discussion. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:05, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Traditional African religions → Traditional African religion – The RM was closed as "unopposed" though there were no votes and there was no discussion. [6] Check the previous RM at Talk:Traditional African religions/Archive 3#Requested move 2. The discussion from 2013 was lengthy and it thoroughly debunked the argument that was used in the RM from 8 November 2016. The editor who carried out the last RM has no issue with this requested reversal. [7] OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
References that define the religion as "Traditional African religion":
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |1=
and |2=
(
help)OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 19:27, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
"African Traditional religion" has been used very often as title of the books (list copied from the
archived discussion).
|
---|
|
Can someone please rename the portal as per the above discussion? Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 17:15, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Bearcat and SMcCandlish: Christianity, Islam, and many other religions don't refer to one particular sect or denomination or belief either. They have many branches. In case you might have not noticed, I had mentioned "African Traditional Religion" above which Kwamikagami has already referred as "perfectly correct". Whether this refers to one thing or multiple, that should not be a issue for RM because the RM was about what is more WP:COMMON name.
"Traditional African religion" is clearly a more common name when we compare it with "Traditional African religions". "African Traditional Religion" is about 50 times more common term than "Traditional African religions" according to Google. The page was originally titled as "African tradition religion" until Kwamikagami modified the title from "African traditional religion" to "Traditional African religion" in 2011. [32] To say that this title refers to only one religion is definitely WP:OR. African Traditional Religion, means "i.e. African religious beliefs and the underlying force of African cultural practices." [33] I can discover more sources. Not only the raw Google results but those of Google Books, JSTOR, Google Scholars, affirm that "African Traditional Religion" is the most common term. OccultZone ( Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:22, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
OccultZone, your comparison to Islam and Xanity suggests you believe this to be a religion, which is precisely why we should *not* move it. By "correct" I just meant that your phrasing could be used generically. A better comparison would be e.g. "Asian religion", which doesn't imply that Hinduism and Islam are sects of an Asian religion. Unfortunately, giving many people's ignorance, "African religion" is going to be read as meaning that there is an African religion. — kwami ( talk) 23:46, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Traditional African religions is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Traditional African religions until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 08:16, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
These IPs keeps vandalising this article here, here and and here. I've reverted them, but can this article be semi protected or block these IPs? Senegambianamestudy ( talk) 23:07, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Notes 22, 27, and 30 are for the same link: https://worldhistoryconnected.press.uillinois.edu/2.1/ehret.html 22 and 30 do not work, leading to a 404 page. There is an added comma at the end of the url that causes this to happen. Also, if the notes are all from the same source, shouldn't they be under one number? It is also a primary source, and therefore not as reliable as a secondary source.
Sora360 ( talk) 13:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm ( talk) 21:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Traditional African religions → African religions – This is a great article. However, it's better titled as "African religions" rather than "African traditional religions" because the word "tradition" brings with it meanings such as old, outdated, customary and yet not verifiable, primitive and so forth. Take Christianity in Ethiopia for example. It was practiced since two thousand years ago. It's quite old. And yet it doesn't get the "traditional" label applied to it. Judaism is even much older. Again, it's not referred to as "traditional religion in Israel" - it's simply "Judaism". The distinction between African religions discussed in this article and other religions (primarily Abrahamic religions in Africa) is that African religions were created in Africa whereas it is widely accepted that the others were created elsewhere. Besides that difference, both groups of religions are old (traditional) and have continued to evolve to this day (modern). The other point is that some of the African religions have been orally transferred. But this is not true of every African religion. So the title "Oral African religions" isn't accurate either. It's impossible to find an attribute that applies to all these religions except them being African. I think we should just stick to "African religions". 86.11.149.51 ( talk) 19:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
There is nothing here it's not good 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔😡😡😠😠 41.80.98.117 ( talk) 18:46, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2018 and 14 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jermaine.hassell.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Traditional religions in East Africa 197.239.5.174 ( talk) 19:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
what is it 41.116.63.82 ( talk) 07:51, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
The following claim has no attribution: "It is suggested that most ancient traditional African religions, like most other indigenous folk religions around the world, were strictly polytheistic and lacked the belief in monotheistic concepts, such as a single supreme creator god."
Who has suggested this? When I look up specific religious traditions, many, perhaps a majority, of them do have a single creator God. The article later cites Olupona arguing that "monotheism" is an inappropriate category for traditional African religions, but he doesn't claim that most African religions lacked belief in a creator, only that not all possessed such a belief. Amandil101 ( talk) 23:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Follow the syllabus 102.87.171.112 ( talk) 08:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
African weeding customs 41.114.55.43 ( talk) 18:14, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
In African Traditional ReligoRe there is a belief in a Supreme Being . However worshipper don't claim to have seen touched,smelled,heard or had any kind of physical contact with the supreme being who is seen as very remoted and who doesn't play an important part in religious practices and beliefs.But since African is a large continent with many ethinc group and culture,there is not one single technique of casting divination.The practices of casting may be done with small objects,suc s as bones cowrie shells stone,strips and leather or flat piece of woods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.113.37.224 ( talk) 11:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
am i missing something here?
Why is there no detail on any Angolan ones, or regional ones IN Angola?
A bit of consultation / research might find some cross-over detail. There must be at least a few professors sitting around twiddling their thumbs that'd have a spare 1/2 hour or so to rattle off a few with a quote or two from a book off-the-shelf. 120.21.60.236 ( talk) 17:53, 24 August 2022 (UTC)