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I should mention that the Tower of David is mentioned in a book written in the 10th century b.c. called 'Song of Songs' or 'Song of Solomon'. It appears that it may be impossible for it to be first built in the first or second century a.d. if it were mentioned in a book written 1000 years earlier. Professorstein ( talk) 10:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This article has two contradictory explanations, differing by around 1000 years, for how the name "Tower of David" came about. Zero talk 13:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I reverted this edit because 1) The daytime picture is stunning, and 2) The nighttime picture is of low pixel quality. Yoninah ( talk) 19:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
"As evidenced by the archaeological discovery of the Broad Wall, King Hezekiah was the first to specifically fortify this area."
If this is "evidenced", surely we may expect some kind of evidence that will support this statement. Please add reliable sources, or delete this claim. -- 93.212.241.30 ( talk) 22:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
There are two proper sources listed at the end of the paragraph both which explain that the Broad walls founding and structure illustrate that fortifications began in the area known as the "Western Hill" in the King Hezekiah time period. It further explains that the remains of the wall today and the Citadel fortifications are more removed due to the walls destruction, changes in the cities structure, and further building. From the archaeological findings of what fortifications of the wall still exist, the Broad wall when originally built would have been within the vicinity of the Citadel fortifications as they stand today. 108.58.240.242 (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.58.240.242 ( talk)
Other than the Herodian towers, everything else is a mess all the way until the Mamluks. No plausible historical outline for the apparition and evolution of a citadel here (nothing useful about any structures during the Kingdom of Judah, Hasmoneans, Herod other than the towers -3 unconnected residential towers are not a citadel-, Romans after 70 CE, Byzantines, in part later too). Who built one first? What does "destruction" mean? (We have 3 mentioned in a row, w/o a word about any re-construction in between). What happened to the citadel when Ayyubid sultan Al-Mu'azzam 'Isa demolished the city walls in 1219? Nothing makes sense.
Once ARCHAEOLOGY is brought in (was it Nachman Avigad and/or Hillel Geva? Any new digs since?), we start making sense, but not before that. 4th- and 5th-hand info is useless, just the blabla of bored old tour guides. Arminden ( talk) 12:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Removed what looks like somebody's "own research", based on poor source and ignoring/misunderstanding even the site plans from the quoted source.
"As evidenced by the archaeological discovery of the
Broad Wall,
King Hezekiah was the first to fortify this area."
-Why not: The "Broad Wall" section excavated in the Jewish Qtr is far to the W of the Citadel. It is no proof whatsoever that Hez. fortified "this area". The W Hill is quite vast, the Citadel just a section of it.
Quoted source: "
Broad Wall - Jerusalem 101; see maps."
-Not valid: Miserably poor source ("A Bible Teaching Ministry of Galyn Wiemers" - Galyn WHO?), which nevertheless uses good area plans from academic sources, both of which show that Hezekiah's "broad wall" stopped very far to the west of the Mamluk citadel & Jaffa Gate. So "see maps" and convince yourselves that they prove the Citadel area was NOT included by Hezekiah.
-"The city's fortifications demonstrate that by the late eighth century the city had expanded to include the hill to the west of the Temple Mount...... etc., etc.
-Irrelevant: see above: Hezekiah's wall never reached so far west. No connection to our topic whatsoever.
Please, pay more attention when you edit, especially when it borders on "own research", i.e.: you cannot find a good source stating PRECISELY what you wish to prove.
Arminden (
talk)
17:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
It seems the Arabic name in this article is a literal translation to the English name. But that's not what's it called in Arabic. In Arabic it's called (برج القلعة), the Castle's Tower. -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 16:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
What do you think? And definitely, please bring a good source, no need to try too hard by yourself, I'm sure there are lots of sources out there - Arab archaeologists, academic books in Arabic, etc. Thank you, Arminden ( talk) 23:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Mahmoud Hawari, The Citadel of Jerusalem: A Case Study in the Cultural Appropriation of Archaeology in Palestine, Present Pasts, Vol. 2, No. 1, 2010, 89-95, doi:10.5334/pp.25 says "During the early Islamic period the site was converted into an Islamic shrine named Mihrab Dawud (David’s Prayer Niche)." Also mentioned in Gonen, Contested Holiness. There is also an article I don't have: Busse, H. (1994). ‘The Tower of David/Mihrab Dawud: Remarks on the History of a Sanctuary in Jerusalem in Christian and Islamic Times’, Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 17: 142-65. Zero talk 04:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello @ Arminden: & Zero, To make things clearer, I'll break it down as follows:
I tried to use Google Trends for both terms (برج القلعة القدس, برج داود القدس), but it seems the "search doesn't have enough data". But a quick Google search in Arabic will clearly indicate that all Arab sources use the name "Burj al-Qala'a" except for the Israeli ones (in Arabic). It is clear that Israel is trying to push this name (Burj Dawud/Dauod) for obvious reasons.
The Arabic name should reflect what the structure is actually called in Arabic, by Arabs. Not what other non-Arabs think it should be called. The name "Tower of David" used in western sources to describe what Palestinians call in Arabic Burj al-Qala'a.
I think it could have a better literal Arabic-to-English translation, if that's what you mean by illogical. I can suggest Citadel Tower (or Jerusalem Citadel Tower or Bab al-Kalil Citadel Tower.. except that would be too long) instead of the more awkwardly phrased "Castle's Tower"? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 07:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Crazyketchupguy: hi. With all due respect: I notice that you have a problem with understanding what Zero writes and what I write. You're upset about Israeli-Jewish cultural appropriation. That's all fine, but not my topic. If Arabic speakers from the, say, 7th or 8th century adopted a Byzantine name, or came to a similar one based on Muslim concepts, a name that today is used by Israel with a political purpose, this doesn't make the fact undone. It has to be clarified how the name evolved, and Mahmoud Hawari' article mentioned by Zero and the book chapter brought in by me are doing just that. I don't think you want to accuse Hawari of Birzeit U. of a Zionist agenda. So take it easy, read without emotions, and extract the facts. You'll be satisfied with the result and so will be Wikipedia's users - and editors. And yes, on English Wiki the exact translation of the Arabic names does matter, and it should ideally be quoted from good sources (I know, it's not always possible, but in this case it is). A paragraph on Names (I prefer this heading on the more posh and often inaccurate Etymology, as we do have a whole series of consecutive names and historical elements, not just a philological discussion) can include all this, while the lead can be kept short, no problem.
Important: there are TWO topics in this article. One is the actual tower (Herodian + Mamluk), and the other is the Citadel, which is now and has been for a while called "Tower of David", with additional focus on the 17th c. Ottoman minaret that mistakenly got the same name in the 19th c. Unless the article's topic and the definitions are very sharply stated, the article tends to slide into a useless mess. There can be a paragraph on current politics, but that shouldn't permeate all of the article. I confident that we can agree on this. Have a great day, Arminden ( talk) 14:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Arminden: Hi there, I'm being very professional and calm, but it seems you both are getting more emotional and unprofessional with every reply. Yup, be being upset or not is not your topic, yet you seem more interested in discussing my emotions than the facts and arguments I'm presenting. In nearly all Arabic sources today, the same usage of "Tower of David" in English is "Burj al-Qala'a" in Arabic. Burj al-Qala'a is the current Arabic name, regardless of what it was called during the Ayyubid times. Feel free to add a paragraph about its name during the Ayyubid era. If someone is searching for tourism or to research news sources, they won't find it under "Burj Dawud", but "Burj al-Qala'a". Even from the Hawari case study you're using: "For nearly a millennium the Citadel has been known by its Arabic name, al-Qal’a (the Citadel), whether in contemporary literary sources or by the local Palestinian population of Jerusalem." It's that simple. Or was that too emotional for you? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 15:31, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Arminden: So let's agree on two things:
I've seen "Burj al-Qala'a" used interchangeably with "al-Qala'a", but this needs a whole different research on its own. So we can at least agree that the most common Arabic name for the citadel is "al-Qala'a" or "Qal'et al-Quds".-- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 10:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
References
The testimonies of the tenth-century Muslim geographers identify the Tower itself with the prayer place of King David (Mihrab Dawud), that was mentioned in the Qur'an....(9) Note 9: Qur'an, xxxviii. 21-22: "....they ascended over the wall into the upper chamber (mihrab), when they went in unto David...."
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Section ("Tower of David": Ottoman minaret), the citation used does not say anything about the claims made in that section: "it became popularly used for the 17th-century Ottoman minaret prominently visible on the wall of the citadel; ever since people use the name 'Tower of David' either for the whole citadel or just for the minaret." Also, when talking about being used, please specify by whom; Arab locals, the Ottoman authorities, Western travelers? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 07:20, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Since the citation is completely unrelated to what the section is talking about, I removed the entire section. -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 04:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I should mention that the Tower of David is mentioned in a book written in the 10th century b.c. called 'Song of Songs' or 'Song of Solomon'. It appears that it may be impossible for it to be first built in the first or second century a.d. if it were mentioned in a book written 1000 years earlier. Professorstein ( talk) 10:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This article has two contradictory explanations, differing by around 1000 years, for how the name "Tower of David" came about. Zero talk 13:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I reverted this edit because 1) The daytime picture is stunning, and 2) The nighttime picture is of low pixel quality. Yoninah ( talk) 19:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
"As evidenced by the archaeological discovery of the Broad Wall, King Hezekiah was the first to specifically fortify this area."
If this is "evidenced", surely we may expect some kind of evidence that will support this statement. Please add reliable sources, or delete this claim. -- 93.212.241.30 ( talk) 22:57, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
There are two proper sources listed at the end of the paragraph both which explain that the Broad walls founding and structure illustrate that fortifications began in the area known as the "Western Hill" in the King Hezekiah time period. It further explains that the remains of the wall today and the Citadel fortifications are more removed due to the walls destruction, changes in the cities structure, and further building. From the archaeological findings of what fortifications of the wall still exist, the Broad wall when originally built would have been within the vicinity of the Citadel fortifications as they stand today. 108.58.240.242 (talk) 21:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.58.240.242 ( talk)
Other than the Herodian towers, everything else is a mess all the way until the Mamluks. No plausible historical outline for the apparition and evolution of a citadel here (nothing useful about any structures during the Kingdom of Judah, Hasmoneans, Herod other than the towers -3 unconnected residential towers are not a citadel-, Romans after 70 CE, Byzantines, in part later too). Who built one first? What does "destruction" mean? (We have 3 mentioned in a row, w/o a word about any re-construction in between). What happened to the citadel when Ayyubid sultan Al-Mu'azzam 'Isa demolished the city walls in 1219? Nothing makes sense.
Once ARCHAEOLOGY is brought in (was it Nachman Avigad and/or Hillel Geva? Any new digs since?), we start making sense, but not before that. 4th- and 5th-hand info is useless, just the blabla of bored old tour guides. Arminden ( talk) 12:22, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Removed what looks like somebody's "own research", based on poor source and ignoring/misunderstanding even the site plans from the quoted source.
"As evidenced by the archaeological discovery of the
Broad Wall,
King Hezekiah was the first to fortify this area."
-Why not: The "Broad Wall" section excavated in the Jewish Qtr is far to the W of the Citadel. It is no proof whatsoever that Hez. fortified "this area". The W Hill is quite vast, the Citadel just a section of it.
Quoted source: "
Broad Wall - Jerusalem 101; see maps."
-Not valid: Miserably poor source ("A Bible Teaching Ministry of Galyn Wiemers" - Galyn WHO?), which nevertheless uses good area plans from academic sources, both of which show that Hezekiah's "broad wall" stopped very far to the west of the Mamluk citadel & Jaffa Gate. So "see maps" and convince yourselves that they prove the Citadel area was NOT included by Hezekiah.
-"The city's fortifications demonstrate that by the late eighth century the city had expanded to include the hill to the west of the Temple Mount...... etc., etc.
-Irrelevant: see above: Hezekiah's wall never reached so far west. No connection to our topic whatsoever.
Please, pay more attention when you edit, especially when it borders on "own research", i.e.: you cannot find a good source stating PRECISELY what you wish to prove.
Arminden (
talk)
17:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
It seems the Arabic name in this article is a literal translation to the English name. But that's not what's it called in Arabic. In Arabic it's called (برج القلعة), the Castle's Tower. -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 16:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
What do you think? And definitely, please bring a good source, no need to try too hard by yourself, I'm sure there are lots of sources out there - Arab archaeologists, academic books in Arabic, etc. Thank you, Arminden ( talk) 23:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Mahmoud Hawari, The Citadel of Jerusalem: A Case Study in the Cultural Appropriation of Archaeology in Palestine, Present Pasts, Vol. 2, No. 1, 2010, 89-95, doi:10.5334/pp.25 says "During the early Islamic period the site was converted into an Islamic shrine named Mihrab Dawud (David’s Prayer Niche)." Also mentioned in Gonen, Contested Holiness. There is also an article I don't have: Busse, H. (1994). ‘The Tower of David/Mihrab Dawud: Remarks on the History of a Sanctuary in Jerusalem in Christian and Islamic Times’, Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 17: 142-65. Zero talk 04:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Hello @ Arminden: & Zero, To make things clearer, I'll break it down as follows:
I tried to use Google Trends for both terms (برج القلعة القدس, برج داود القدس), but it seems the "search doesn't have enough data". But a quick Google search in Arabic will clearly indicate that all Arab sources use the name "Burj al-Qala'a" except for the Israeli ones (in Arabic). It is clear that Israel is trying to push this name (Burj Dawud/Dauod) for obvious reasons.
The Arabic name should reflect what the structure is actually called in Arabic, by Arabs. Not what other non-Arabs think it should be called. The name "Tower of David" used in western sources to describe what Palestinians call in Arabic Burj al-Qala'a.
I think it could have a better literal Arabic-to-English translation, if that's what you mean by illogical. I can suggest Citadel Tower (or Jerusalem Citadel Tower or Bab al-Kalil Citadel Tower.. except that would be too long) instead of the more awkwardly phrased "Castle's Tower"? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 07:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Crazyketchupguy: hi. With all due respect: I notice that you have a problem with understanding what Zero writes and what I write. You're upset about Israeli-Jewish cultural appropriation. That's all fine, but not my topic. If Arabic speakers from the, say, 7th or 8th century adopted a Byzantine name, or came to a similar one based on Muslim concepts, a name that today is used by Israel with a political purpose, this doesn't make the fact undone. It has to be clarified how the name evolved, and Mahmoud Hawari' article mentioned by Zero and the book chapter brought in by me are doing just that. I don't think you want to accuse Hawari of Birzeit U. of a Zionist agenda. So take it easy, read without emotions, and extract the facts. You'll be satisfied with the result and so will be Wikipedia's users - and editors. And yes, on English Wiki the exact translation of the Arabic names does matter, and it should ideally be quoted from good sources (I know, it's not always possible, but in this case it is). A paragraph on Names (I prefer this heading on the more posh and often inaccurate Etymology, as we do have a whole series of consecutive names and historical elements, not just a philological discussion) can include all this, while the lead can be kept short, no problem.
Important: there are TWO topics in this article. One is the actual tower (Herodian + Mamluk), and the other is the Citadel, which is now and has been for a while called "Tower of David", with additional focus on the 17th c. Ottoman minaret that mistakenly got the same name in the 19th c. Unless the article's topic and the definitions are very sharply stated, the article tends to slide into a useless mess. There can be a paragraph on current politics, but that shouldn't permeate all of the article. I confident that we can agree on this. Have a great day, Arminden ( talk) 14:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Arminden: Hi there, I'm being very professional and calm, but it seems you both are getting more emotional and unprofessional with every reply. Yup, be being upset or not is not your topic, yet you seem more interested in discussing my emotions than the facts and arguments I'm presenting. In nearly all Arabic sources today, the same usage of "Tower of David" in English is "Burj al-Qala'a" in Arabic. Burj al-Qala'a is the current Arabic name, regardless of what it was called during the Ayyubid times. Feel free to add a paragraph about its name during the Ayyubid era. If someone is searching for tourism or to research news sources, they won't find it under "Burj Dawud", but "Burj al-Qala'a". Even from the Hawari case study you're using: "For nearly a millennium the Citadel has been known by its Arabic name, al-Qal’a (the Citadel), whether in contemporary literary sources or by the local Palestinian population of Jerusalem." It's that simple. Or was that too emotional for you? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 15:31, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Arminden: So let's agree on two things:
I've seen "Burj al-Qala'a" used interchangeably with "al-Qala'a", but this needs a whole different research on its own. So we can at least agree that the most common Arabic name for the citadel is "al-Qala'a" or "Qal'et al-Quds".-- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 10:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
References
The testimonies of the tenth-century Muslim geographers identify the Tower itself with the prayer place of King David (Mihrab Dawud), that was mentioned in the Qur'an....(9) Note 9: Qur'an, xxxviii. 21-22: "....they ascended over the wall into the upper chamber (mihrab), when they went in unto David...."
{{
cite book}}
: |work=
ignored (
help)
Section ("Tower of David": Ottoman minaret), the citation used does not say anything about the claims made in that section: "it became popularly used for the 17th-century Ottoman minaret prominently visible on the wall of the citadel; ever since people use the name 'Tower of David' either for the whole citadel or just for the minaret." Also, when talking about being used, please specify by whom; Arab locals, the Ottoman authorities, Western travelers? -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 07:20, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Since the citation is completely unrelated to what the section is talking about, I removed the entire section. -- Crazyketchupguy ( talk) 04:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)