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Please explain the WP:NPOV dispute. If there is no dispute, then the NPOV tag should be removed. Boud ( talk) 14:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Something less verbose could do? Like Mala Rohan kneecappings or Mala Rohan kneecapping incident? -- 31.158.143.222 ( talk) 22:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
AGF two different versions of the story were published, and the what the source was reported to say is from an earlier version. Nonetheless the version the link goes to is damning and leaves little doubt. (And I had hoped the video was indeed a fake) Note that Le Monde is a world-class newspaper with a reputation as good as or better than the New York Times or the Times of London. If they say a thing is so then it is. The article says:
Les images repérées par l’analyste indépendant Erich Auerbach, et croisées par Le Monde à d’autres documents disponibles en ligne, prouvent que des volontaires du bataillon ukrainien Slobozhanshchyna se trouvaient sur les lieux quand les prisonniers russes ont été torturés. S’il n’est pas pas ossible d’affirmer avec certitude que l’individu auteur du tir est directement issu de leurs rangs, le leader du groupe, Andri Ianholenko, apparaît clairement aux côtés des trois victimes, avant les coups de feu. Sollicité par Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko n’a pas répondu.
This translates as:
The images discovered by the independent analyst Erich Auerbach, and cross-referenced by Le Monde to other documents available online, prove that volunteers of the Ukrainian Slobozhanshchyna batallion were on site when the Russian prisoners were tortured. Although it isn't possible to affirm with certainty that the individual who pulled the trigger came directly from their ranks, the leader of the group, Andri Ianholenko, clearly appears at the side of the three victims before the gunshots. Queried by Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko did not reply.
I have amended the the text of article to reflect the source. Nothing there about taking them into custody a kilometer away. AGF, as I said, that was in a different article with an earlier version, and the person who wrote this did not speak French. But if we believe Le Monde -- and we should -- there is no doubt. I still don't understand the person speaking Russian without an accent on a walkie-talkie though, but that isn't mentioned in this source and this source is what I am correcting Elinruby ( talk) 06:18, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
The frame where Yangolenko clearly appears with the prisoners is not the dairy plant; the video says it is the street the dairy is on and calls it "about 765 yards" away and there's a graphic that says "700 mètres" Hipponoticed ( talk) 23:22, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Minor quibble though; one of User:Hipponotice’s edit summaries says that this is confirmed, just not that it is that specific unit. This is exactly wrong; they specifically say that they are not confirming it, and when they say authenticate they mean that a sergeant of a Ukrainian unit that had military control of the area was posting on Facebook very nearby. For those who don’t know this, the Russians have been running false flags against the Ukrainians since 2014, as the IP you keep reverting is trying to tell you. That does not make this video fake, mind you, but Le Monde is saying that “vraisemblablement” - seemingly - the men on the ground are Russian prisoners, and their captors are Ukrainian, and go through their reasons for this assessment. On the other hand, this video circulated on Russian propaganda sites, they specifically say, and they are unable to vouch for the accuracy of this seeming-ness ;)
I have posted a decent summary of the video elsewhere, but you do not need me to tell you that; the video has English subtitles. I have quibbles with it — I would have said the sky was overcast, not covered, for example — but they are not substantive. I would call it a good en-5 translation by a native French speaker. So turn them on. And self-revert the erroneous lede, please, whoever did that Elinruby ( talk) 05:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
p.s. - personally, based on this source, I find it “vraisemblable” that the unit sargeant mentioned would do something like this. He sounds like a piece of work and his brother had just died in the shelling of Kharkiv. But other sources differ somewhat on some of the details, and I have not examined them. Elinruby ( talk) 05:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
“Vérifier” does not mean “vouch for” in French. They specifically say that they cannot determine the identity of the soldiers. Watch the embedded video and turn on subtitles if your spoken French isn’t good. Elinruby ( talk) 18:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
On 13 May the French newspaper Le Monde and independent analysts. The point is that they verified/checked the video and concluded that it was not a fabrication. I never implied anything different as this diff [5] clearly shows: "video purportedly showing Ukrainian soldiers torturing Russian prisoners" is a cautious but accurate and preferable description of the event. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)verifiedchecked the video and confirmed its authenticity
They didn’t though. Le Monde absolutely did not confirm its authenticity. They “authenticated” it, which is a term of art — ask any information security professional —that refers, I believe, to the social media posts of the unit sargeant. They were in the area and the events portrayed by the video are plausible, Le Monde says, but they absolutely do not “confirm its authenticity”. Please realize that I am a native French speaker by the legal definitions of my country (something else I have said before...I would have thought you would have read the ANI thread?) I didn’t change it because I was busy off-wiki, as I told you, and AGF I figured you would correct it since the matter was raised at ANI and all. Elinruby ( talk) 23:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I have been looking at auerbach’s twitter feed. He geo-locates the video but cannot definitively link the unit to the shooting. It seems clear that the unit was in the area but he specifically says that the frame where they appear was shot at a different time (this is all in English btw). All of the video he uses to “authenticate” has been edited. It is clear to me that he is saying that he feels the video shot up the road was shot by the sargeant and/or another member of the unit. You’re hanging a lot on one misunderstood word in the only source that remotely comes close to saying the video is real. This is about the fourth time I have explained this to you. Authentication is an information security concept that relates to *identity*. Only. You need to let go of your preconceptions. I am looking at all the sources I can find and not finding anything to support them. I do however note a recent story that indicates otherwise. I must respectfully decline your offer to make the edit, since you just re-inserted this error into the war crimes article. I don’t understand your need to argue French with a French speaker, but this is not semantics. *Nobody* says the video is authentic as far as I can see. Elinruby ( talk) 08:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Une vidéo ... que Le Monde a pu authentifier et recouper avec d’autres images), meaning that we know that the video was not staged, it's authentic, real people were really shot on that day there, and those people were the same POWs who were in custody of an Ukrainian official in Mala Rohan on the evening of the 25th. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Boud: it isn’t either one of those Erich Auerbachs. I link to his Twitter account and the pinned thread in the Fact Check 1 section below. I do agree that watching the Le Monde video is important; I don’t know how your spoken French is, but if you click on settings you can turn on English subtitles. They make the point that anybody can tie a cloth around his arm, but I think Le Monde is confident that the unit in question was in the area at some point (BBC and Le Monde differ on when) and is persuasive that the unit commander is capable of such a thing. However, it *is* an extrapolation. Some of the video is edited from his social media posts. There are multiple videos, all of them edited. Le Monde matches the prisoners the unit takes a km away to the men being shot... not sure I agree, but also not prepared to disagree. My issue here is that a “maybe” has become Le Monde definitely confirmed it. They do say it’s geolocated. It does seem likely that the heavy blond man is the commander of the Sloboda Ukraine unit, and this is what I think Le Monde means by “authenticated”. If some of the video is from his social media then there isn’t much doubt about his identity, and the geek in me says that authentication is a term of art meaning that identity is proven. But. Is the edited version circulated by Russian propaganda sources (per Le Monde) a truthful portrayal of events?There have been quite a number of Russian-produced fake videos, and I think we should have more than a “maybe” about the commission of a war crime, and especially not say the video is verified by Le Monde when Le Monde specifically says it can’t say with any certainty who did the shooting. Elinruby ( talk) 20:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Meduza has a useful report from the victims' families, who are desperate to get info from Russian authorities: https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/06/16/he-had-a-bag-over-his-head-and-a-broken-face, "'He had a bag over his head and a broken face' Russian mother identifies conscript son in video appearing to show Ukrainian troops shooting prisoners of war", 16 June 2022, Meduza. Boud ( talk) 02:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Despite the [tweet below https://mobile.twitter.com/zcjbrooker/status/1522249098807627779], the article said “ Le Monde published a video in which they confirmed geolocations and information about possible suspects in the shootings that were first reported by Erich Auerbach.“
Auerbach didn’t first report the shootings, nor does he give “information about possible suspects”
“erich_auerbach @zcjbrooker · May 5 On 1 May, I geolocated the above new video, but did not have any certain matches between it and the persons in the kneecapping footage, or any names. “ Elinruby ( talk) 12:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Under “Video” we say the Kraken Battalion was fighting nearby, and throw in a gratuitous reference to Azov Battalion. This is attributed to Libération but cited to France24. That might not matter much, except that in the next section we say it is actually the Slobozhanshchyna Battalion that was nearby. It does appear that the heavy blond man in the two videos is the unit commander of the Slobozhanshchyna afaict, and indeed Le Monde does say so Elinruby ( talk)
I noticed later that somebody said there were three volunteer units in the area. Neither Libé nor France24 is a perennial source, but I don’t dispute that France24 is reliable, and my mind is open on Libé...it used to be a left-wing rag with a pedigree but our article on them says they are now center-left. Shrug. I used to read it, and it was a slangy tabloid then, but offhand if it has a fact-checking operation it’s probably reliable and if it can afford one on Ukraine, I guess it’s gotten bourgeois. I am a little skeptical about this link, but I will look. I suspect an appeal to sensationalism. I do appreciate you hunting down the link. Elinruby ( talk) 19:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
“One of the new arrivals is also appears to be struck in the head with the butt of a rifle.[citation needed]”
This is uncited. Elinruby ( talk) 13:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Elinruby ( talk) 19:34, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
“five people in military uniforms lying on the floor with their hands tied and bullet wounds in their legs.[failed verification][citation needed]” - neither video narration nor article says that the men laying on the ground (not floor) as Le Monde video opens have been shot in the leg. Don’t think either one says there are five of them either. Three men definitely do get shot in the leg after that. By somebody. Elinruby ( talk) 13:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Ok. That isn’t five men all shot in the leg. That’s “many” and “at least three”, which is not the same thing. I was about to follow up on that one, but it still isn’t five men shot in the leg. It wouldn’t be a big deal if it wasn’t all like this. Elinruby ( talk) 13:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Correction: Le Monde does say five, “most of them wounded”. Nothing there about legs however. Elinruby ( talk) 14:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Right but the article says the video shows five men with their hands tied who had been shot in the leg. The video doesn’t say their hands are tied, either. We do see at least one whose hands are tied, but the article says five. Elinruby ( talk) 14:23, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Re hands: I will look at the HRW source again. If it is in fact in that source and gets correctly cited to that source, then very fine. Same thing for “five”. I am just objecting to all the hand-waving and extrapolation. You still don’t have a source that says the men on the ground were shot in the leg, though, so you should remove that. At least one of the sources does say they were wounded, however. No objection to saying that, though it would be nice to cite it. I think it was Le Monde in the video narration. Elinruby ( talk) 19:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
There are multiple sources talking about the bodies of dead Russian soldiers. Some of them suggest that officers abandoned the wounded and/or shot themselves. Article attempts to link the purported shooting to two (not five!) bodies found in a well, but omits other sources that suggest the Russians were shooting their own soldiers. If this article is notable enough to cover, it is worth getting this stuff right. The Ukrainians say they are refrigerating the bodies in the Russians want them back Elinruby ( talk) 13:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I am rather sick of Wikipedia right now, at the end of a long session. There are three links in the thread you started on the War crimes article. I am willing to copy them over here later, and even find others, but that’s where they are if you want to look at them now. To be clear, many of them probably died in battle, and at least one article mentions a suicide, but some of them were also shot with their hands tied, so regardless of who did that, I think don’t it’s possible to impute responsibility for the burned corpses mentioned by HRW. If you can search in languages other than English or French you may find sources I haven’t. One way to resolve the dispute over “verified” and “authenticated” would be to find another reliable source that says that yes, this was Ukrainian forces. You do realize however that Donbas units would speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent, right? Just checking. The Slovoda Ukraine unit whose Ukrainian name I can never remember, with the irate commander whose name I can also never remember, was from Kharkiv, I believe, though, and those soldiers would also speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent. This doesn’t explain the radio speaking Russian in a Russian accent however Elinruby ( talk) 19:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
ok well. I decline to do another round of listening to you explain my maternal language to me. Would this be eight or nine? Peace out. The following are some of the sources you asked for. Elinruby ( talk) 21:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
[11] - if there are any objections to these edits, please explain why. My very best wishes ( talk) 01:41, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The OHCHR describes the incident in the following way:
OHCHR is particularly concerned about two documented cases of summary execution and torture of Russian prisoners of war and persons hors de combat reportedly perpetrated by members of Ukrainian armed forces.47 In the first case, members of Ukrainian armed forces shot the legs of three captured Russian soldiers and tortured Russian soldiers who were wounded in the Kharkiv region. In the second case, members of Ukrainian armed forces reportedly shot dead a bleeding and choking Russian soldier lying on a road in Kyiv region.
Source: The situation of human rights in Ukraine in the context of the armed attack by the Russian Federation, 24 February to 15 May 2022 (Report). OHCHR. 29 June 2022. para. 105. Retrieved 27 July 2022. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:54, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:51, 27 July 2022 (UTC)In both cases, OHCHR was able to geolocate the places of incidents, which were reportedly taken under control by Ukrainian armed forces during the alleged time of the incidents. Both particular incidents matched reports or videos produced by journalists about the activities of Ukrainian armed forces in particular areas. In relation to the first incident, one of the reported participants of the events later acknowledged that some of his comrades indeed tortured and ill-treated Russian servicemen.
It’s longer than the article is and is, in many ways, pathetic given the knowledge of people who use Wikipedia and investigate sources. I understand this is a really nasty thing and many people have their stake in events like these. But it is clear that on these pages, there is a strong wish that people will not think of this event, will disregard it and question the truth of it. And I want to ask: why are you doing that?
I suggest that this strong wish to deny and squabble over tiny details be written into the article to improve it and better reflect people’s feelings of reaction to it.
Additionally, I suggest that reactions of the US and other leaders should be included, I don’t understand why these are missing. TlalocAxe ( talk) 18:01, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
"Might qualify" is not enough to qualify this article into "war crimes" category. ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 21:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
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Please explain the WP:NPOV dispute. If there is no dispute, then the NPOV tag should be removed. Boud ( talk) 14:03, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Something less verbose could do? Like Mala Rohan kneecappings or Mala Rohan kneecapping incident? -- 31.158.143.222 ( talk) 22:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
AGF two different versions of the story were published, and the what the source was reported to say is from an earlier version. Nonetheless the version the link goes to is damning and leaves little doubt. (And I had hoped the video was indeed a fake) Note that Le Monde is a world-class newspaper with a reputation as good as or better than the New York Times or the Times of London. If they say a thing is so then it is. The article says:
Les images repérées par l’analyste indépendant Erich Auerbach, et croisées par Le Monde à d’autres documents disponibles en ligne, prouvent que des volontaires du bataillon ukrainien Slobozhanshchyna se trouvaient sur les lieux quand les prisonniers russes ont été torturés. S’il n’est pas pas ossible d’affirmer avec certitude que l’individu auteur du tir est directement issu de leurs rangs, le leader du groupe, Andri Ianholenko, apparaît clairement aux côtés des trois victimes, avant les coups de feu. Sollicité par Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko n’a pas répondu.
This translates as:
The images discovered by the independent analyst Erich Auerbach, and cross-referenced by Le Monde to other documents available online, prove that volunteers of the Ukrainian Slobozhanshchyna batallion were on site when the Russian prisoners were tortured. Although it isn't possible to affirm with certainty that the individual who pulled the trigger came directly from their ranks, the leader of the group, Andri Ianholenko, clearly appears at the side of the three victims before the gunshots. Queried by Le Monde, Andri Ianholenko did not reply.
I have amended the the text of article to reflect the source. Nothing there about taking them into custody a kilometer away. AGF, as I said, that was in a different article with an earlier version, and the person who wrote this did not speak French. But if we believe Le Monde -- and we should -- there is no doubt. I still don't understand the person speaking Russian without an accent on a walkie-talkie though, but that isn't mentioned in this source and this source is what I am correcting Elinruby ( talk) 06:18, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
The frame where Yangolenko clearly appears with the prisoners is not the dairy plant; the video says it is the street the dairy is on and calls it "about 765 yards" away and there's a graphic that says "700 mètres" Hipponoticed ( talk) 23:22, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Minor quibble though; one of User:Hipponotice’s edit summaries says that this is confirmed, just not that it is that specific unit. This is exactly wrong; they specifically say that they are not confirming it, and when they say authenticate they mean that a sergeant of a Ukrainian unit that had military control of the area was posting on Facebook very nearby. For those who don’t know this, the Russians have been running false flags against the Ukrainians since 2014, as the IP you keep reverting is trying to tell you. That does not make this video fake, mind you, but Le Monde is saying that “vraisemblablement” - seemingly - the men on the ground are Russian prisoners, and their captors are Ukrainian, and go through their reasons for this assessment. On the other hand, this video circulated on Russian propaganda sites, they specifically say, and they are unable to vouch for the accuracy of this seeming-ness ;)
I have posted a decent summary of the video elsewhere, but you do not need me to tell you that; the video has English subtitles. I have quibbles with it — I would have said the sky was overcast, not covered, for example — but they are not substantive. I would call it a good en-5 translation by a native French speaker. So turn them on. And self-revert the erroneous lede, please, whoever did that Elinruby ( talk) 05:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
p.s. - personally, based on this source, I find it “vraisemblable” that the unit sargeant mentioned would do something like this. He sounds like a piece of work and his brother had just died in the shelling of Kharkiv. But other sources differ somewhat on some of the details, and I have not examined them. Elinruby ( talk) 05:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
“Vérifier” does not mean “vouch for” in French. They specifically say that they cannot determine the identity of the soldiers. Watch the embedded video and turn on subtitles if your spoken French isn’t good. Elinruby ( talk) 18:23, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
On 13 May the French newspaper Le Monde and independent analysts. The point is that they verified/checked the video and concluded that it was not a fabrication. I never implied anything different as this diff [5] clearly shows: "video purportedly showing Ukrainian soldiers torturing Russian prisoners" is a cautious but accurate and preferable description of the event. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)verifiedchecked the video and confirmed its authenticity
They didn’t though. Le Monde absolutely did not confirm its authenticity. They “authenticated” it, which is a term of art — ask any information security professional —that refers, I believe, to the social media posts of the unit sargeant. They were in the area and the events portrayed by the video are plausible, Le Monde says, but they absolutely do not “confirm its authenticity”. Please realize that I am a native French speaker by the legal definitions of my country (something else I have said before...I would have thought you would have read the ANI thread?) I didn’t change it because I was busy off-wiki, as I told you, and AGF I figured you would correct it since the matter was raised at ANI and all. Elinruby ( talk) 23:57, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I have been looking at auerbach’s twitter feed. He geo-locates the video but cannot definitively link the unit to the shooting. It seems clear that the unit was in the area but he specifically says that the frame where they appear was shot at a different time (this is all in English btw). All of the video he uses to “authenticate” has been edited. It is clear to me that he is saying that he feels the video shot up the road was shot by the sargeant and/or another member of the unit. You’re hanging a lot on one misunderstood word in the only source that remotely comes close to saying the video is real. This is about the fourth time I have explained this to you. Authentication is an information security concept that relates to *identity*. Only. You need to let go of your preconceptions. I am looking at all the sources I can find and not finding anything to support them. I do however note a recent story that indicates otherwise. I must respectfully decline your offer to make the edit, since you just re-inserted this error into the war crimes article. I don’t understand your need to argue French with a French speaker, but this is not semantics. *Nobody* says the video is authentic as far as I can see. Elinruby ( talk) 08:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Une vidéo ... que Le Monde a pu authentifier et recouper avec d’autres images), meaning that we know that the video was not staged, it's authentic, real people were really shot on that day there, and those people were the same POWs who were in custody of an Ukrainian official in Mala Rohan on the evening of the 25th. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
@ Boud: it isn’t either one of those Erich Auerbachs. I link to his Twitter account and the pinned thread in the Fact Check 1 section below. I do agree that watching the Le Monde video is important; I don’t know how your spoken French is, but if you click on settings you can turn on English subtitles. They make the point that anybody can tie a cloth around his arm, but I think Le Monde is confident that the unit in question was in the area at some point (BBC and Le Monde differ on when) and is persuasive that the unit commander is capable of such a thing. However, it *is* an extrapolation. Some of the video is edited from his social media posts. There are multiple videos, all of them edited. Le Monde matches the prisoners the unit takes a km away to the men being shot... not sure I agree, but also not prepared to disagree. My issue here is that a “maybe” has become Le Monde definitely confirmed it. They do say it’s geolocated. It does seem likely that the heavy blond man is the commander of the Sloboda Ukraine unit, and this is what I think Le Monde means by “authenticated”. If some of the video is from his social media then there isn’t much doubt about his identity, and the geek in me says that authentication is a term of art meaning that identity is proven. But. Is the edited version circulated by Russian propaganda sources (per Le Monde) a truthful portrayal of events?There have been quite a number of Russian-produced fake videos, and I think we should have more than a “maybe” about the commission of a war crime, and especially not say the video is verified by Le Monde when Le Monde specifically says it can’t say with any certainty who did the shooting. Elinruby ( talk) 20:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Meduza has a useful report from the victims' families, who are desperate to get info from Russian authorities: https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/06/16/he-had-a-bag-over-his-head-and-a-broken-face, "'He had a bag over his head and a broken face' Russian mother identifies conscript son in video appearing to show Ukrainian troops shooting prisoners of war", 16 June 2022, Meduza. Boud ( talk) 02:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Despite the [tweet below https://mobile.twitter.com/zcjbrooker/status/1522249098807627779], the article said “ Le Monde published a video in which they confirmed geolocations and information about possible suspects in the shootings that were first reported by Erich Auerbach.“
Auerbach didn’t first report the shootings, nor does he give “information about possible suspects”
“erich_auerbach @zcjbrooker · May 5 On 1 May, I geolocated the above new video, but did not have any certain matches between it and the persons in the kneecapping footage, or any names. “ Elinruby ( talk) 12:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Under “Video” we say the Kraken Battalion was fighting nearby, and throw in a gratuitous reference to Azov Battalion. This is attributed to Libération but cited to France24. That might not matter much, except that in the next section we say it is actually the Slobozhanshchyna Battalion that was nearby. It does appear that the heavy blond man in the two videos is the unit commander of the Slobozhanshchyna afaict, and indeed Le Monde does say so Elinruby ( talk)
I noticed later that somebody said there were three volunteer units in the area. Neither Libé nor France24 is a perennial source, but I don’t dispute that France24 is reliable, and my mind is open on Libé...it used to be a left-wing rag with a pedigree but our article on them says they are now center-left. Shrug. I used to read it, and it was a slangy tabloid then, but offhand if it has a fact-checking operation it’s probably reliable and if it can afford one on Ukraine, I guess it’s gotten bourgeois. I am a little skeptical about this link, but I will look. I suspect an appeal to sensationalism. I do appreciate you hunting down the link. Elinruby ( talk) 19:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
“One of the new arrivals is also appears to be struck in the head with the butt of a rifle.[citation needed]”
This is uncited. Elinruby ( talk) 13:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Elinruby ( talk) 19:34, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
“five people in military uniforms lying on the floor with their hands tied and bullet wounds in their legs.[failed verification][citation needed]” - neither video narration nor article says that the men laying on the ground (not floor) as Le Monde video opens have been shot in the leg. Don’t think either one says there are five of them either. Three men definitely do get shot in the leg after that. By somebody. Elinruby ( talk) 13:22, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Ok. That isn’t five men all shot in the leg. That’s “many” and “at least three”, which is not the same thing. I was about to follow up on that one, but it still isn’t five men shot in the leg. It wouldn’t be a big deal if it wasn’t all like this. Elinruby ( talk) 13:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Correction: Le Monde does say five, “most of them wounded”. Nothing there about legs however. Elinruby ( talk) 14:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Right but the article says the video shows five men with their hands tied who had been shot in the leg. The video doesn’t say their hands are tied, either. We do see at least one whose hands are tied, but the article says five. Elinruby ( talk) 14:23, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Re hands: I will look at the HRW source again. If it is in fact in that source and gets correctly cited to that source, then very fine. Same thing for “five”. I am just objecting to all the hand-waving and extrapolation. You still don’t have a source that says the men on the ground were shot in the leg, though, so you should remove that. At least one of the sources does say they were wounded, however. No objection to saying that, though it would be nice to cite it. I think it was Le Monde in the video narration. Elinruby ( talk) 19:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
There are multiple sources talking about the bodies of dead Russian soldiers. Some of them suggest that officers abandoned the wounded and/or shot themselves. Article attempts to link the purported shooting to two (not five!) bodies found in a well, but omits other sources that suggest the Russians were shooting their own soldiers. If this article is notable enough to cover, it is worth getting this stuff right. The Ukrainians say they are refrigerating the bodies in the Russians want them back Elinruby ( talk) 13:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I am rather sick of Wikipedia right now, at the end of a long session. There are three links in the thread you started on the War crimes article. I am willing to copy them over here later, and even find others, but that’s where they are if you want to look at them now. To be clear, many of them probably died in battle, and at least one article mentions a suicide, but some of them were also shot with their hands tied, so regardless of who did that, I think don’t it’s possible to impute responsibility for the burned corpses mentioned by HRW. If you can search in languages other than English or French you may find sources I haven’t. One way to resolve the dispute over “verified” and “authenticated” would be to find another reliable source that says that yes, this was Ukrainian forces. You do realize however that Donbas units would speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent, right? Just checking. The Slovoda Ukraine unit whose Ukrainian name I can never remember, with the irate commander whose name I can also never remember, was from Kharkiv, I believe, though, and those soldiers would also speak Russian with a Ukrainian accent. This doesn’t explain the radio speaking Russian in a Russian accent however Elinruby ( talk) 19:48, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
ok well. I decline to do another round of listening to you explain my maternal language to me. Would this be eight or nine? Peace out. The following are some of the sources you asked for. Elinruby ( talk) 21:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
[11] - if there are any objections to these edits, please explain why. My very best wishes ( talk) 01:41, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
The OHCHR describes the incident in the following way:
OHCHR is particularly concerned about two documented cases of summary execution and torture of Russian prisoners of war and persons hors de combat reportedly perpetrated by members of Ukrainian armed forces.47 In the first case, members of Ukrainian armed forces shot the legs of three captured Russian soldiers and tortured Russian soldiers who were wounded in the Kharkiv region. In the second case, members of Ukrainian armed forces reportedly shot dead a bleeding and choking Russian soldier lying on a road in Kyiv region.
Source: The situation of human rights in Ukraine in the context of the armed attack by the Russian Federation, 24 February to 15 May 2022 (Report). OHCHR. 29 June 2022. para. 105. Retrieved 27 July 2022. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 20:54, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 22:51, 27 July 2022 (UTC)In both cases, OHCHR was able to geolocate the places of incidents, which were reportedly taken under control by Ukrainian armed forces during the alleged time of the incidents. Both particular incidents matched reports or videos produced by journalists about the activities of Ukrainian armed forces in particular areas. In relation to the first incident, one of the reported participants of the events later acknowledged that some of his comrades indeed tortured and ill-treated Russian servicemen.
It’s longer than the article is and is, in many ways, pathetic given the knowledge of people who use Wikipedia and investigate sources. I understand this is a really nasty thing and many people have their stake in events like these. But it is clear that on these pages, there is a strong wish that people will not think of this event, will disregard it and question the truth of it. And I want to ask: why are you doing that?
I suggest that this strong wish to deny and squabble over tiny details be written into the article to improve it and better reflect people’s feelings of reaction to it.
Additionally, I suggest that reactions of the US and other leaders should be included, I don’t understand why these are missing. TlalocAxe ( talk) 18:01, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
"Might qualify" is not enough to qualify this article into "war crimes" category. ManyAreasExpert ( talk) 21:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)