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"torture is practiced by perverted individuals who enjoyed the sadistic pleasure of causing and observing agony"
This seems a bit of a NPOV violation. A good encyclopedia presents facts, not labels.
it appears that the opening of the article defines torture in part by the uses or ends which are sougth by its use: "Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, a deterrent, revenge, a punishment, or as a method for the extraction of information or confessions ..." In light of that i think the previous writer has a point - torture may be a means to a form of pleasure as well as a merely utilitarian technique. The article should be edited to distinguish what torture is from the ends which it serves. it may very well be that it will be difficult to find people willing to perform the merely utilitarian work of extracting confessions,etc., unless they come to like their work! Richard Rosenberg
What on earth is this link? I removed it since it contains absolutely zero information besides "Nine Evil Republicans."
As a starting point for better defining torture, here is what the UN Convention Against Torture says: (taken from http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html )
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
At the moment the article says:
But that is not what the "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" says. What it says is:
This means that if the person is handed over and it does not involve "expel", "return", or "extradite", then the treaty had not been broken, even if the "organization or country where it is foreseeable that torture would occur is regarded as a violation of the Torture Convention". This may not be in the sprit of the Treaty but it is within the wording.
For example if Country A has armed foreces with expertise which helps Country B to capture Mr X a citizen of country B, inside country B, if Mr X is then handed over to the tortures of country B, the treaty had not been broken because, the person had not been expel, return ("refouler") or extradite. Philip Baird Shearer
I would suggest to take out the whole reference re Execution. While death is obviously one of the outcomes of torture there appears to me a major difference between "death in captivity" and a formal execution based on a court judgement.
I would also suggest to put in the complete UN convention definition. It is not really a major debating point what constitutes torture. The definition is clear enough and courts around the world have also drawn the lines quite clearly. The controversy - as far as it stands - is more concerned with whether there are instances when torture would be a legitimate.
I will try and continue to update this section
Refdoc
I think the section on Execution is pertinent to the subject of torture. Many listed forms of execution and capital punishment bear much similarity to forms of torture and differ only in their intentions. In a sense execution is torture to a different degree. Whereas one might use electrocution in order to extract information or cause psychological or physical harm, another uses it to execute someone.
Ross
The Geneva Conventions outlaw the torture and execution of prisoners. But rulings by the European Court of Human Rights found that sleep or food deprivation, sustained noise, forced standing and sensory deprivation (called "hooding") are not considered torture.
There are lots of qualifications on the Geneva Conventions. For a start it depends which treaty, and it depends on the person's status. I have altered the UK section to include details of the ECHR Ireland v. the UK ruling which is the one referred to.
I think that there needs to be a section on the Treaties which bind countries and a mention that many countries have included domestic law to prohabitions. Philip Baird Shearer 08:53, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm writing about the inclusion of lethal injection as a "potentially painful method" here. I know there's a huge amount of debate on the issue, but I was unaware that people can feel pain when every nerve in their body has been depolarized. Pakaran . 02:26, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What is it about topics related to torture and interrogation that villains described in detail are largely CIA and Israelies? Has there not been enough torture elsewhere? Or is this back to the pour dirt on the "hypocritical West" agenda while ignoring bigger crimes of the rest of the world? Watcher 10:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I've removed the following link: * The Guardian, Friday May 7, 2004: Torture as pornography, The pictures of American soldiers humiliating Iraqi detainees are reminiscent of sadomasochistic porn, says military historian Joanna Bourke. And we should not be surprised While I think it's an article worth reading, I feel that it is more sort of an essayistic comment and too much centered around the particular Abu Ghraib incidents to be included here. regards, High on a tree 17:21, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This is not the place for an editorial on the "systematic use of torture by the united states". - Tεx τ urε 16:08, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Tha article referenced in [1] above Washington Post: Torture Policy (cont'd) Monday, June 21, 2004; Page A18 does not say that in US "Officially sanctioned torture has occurred". What the Americans have done is use simlar criteria to the UK in the early 1970s and tried to use as much physical force as possible without resorting to torture. The only international court ruling on this, is the one by the ECHR when it ruled against UK for The five (sensory deprivation) techniques and found the UK in breach of Article 3 in that the methods amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment but they did not occasion suffering of the particular intensity and cruelty implied by the word torture as so understood.
This of course is no way binding on the US, but it is an indication of what lawers in international law thinks defines torture and from what the US administration seems to be saying is a similar legal bench mark which they use. This may not be what many people think of as ethical behaviour but it does mean that the US has not breached its treaty obligations and used torture. So as that source does not describe the US using torture "just" methods which verge on torture, I am going to alter it to point to the UK example. Philip Baird Shearer 18:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Technically there is no proof yet of US use of organized torture as of date of this redaction. Removed this from document. Probably it would be better to refer to a nation in which torture is used as part of official policy, or better yet, avoid political redaction all together. -Steve Jackson
Fred had added "the Soviet Union and" in front of "Europe" in the Torture and confession section, but I didn't feel it made sense there. First of all, it was refering to Europe in the medieval and early modern (whatever that means) times, and the USSR wasn't around then. Secondly, the USSR is considered part of Eastern Europe, so it's already included in Europe. I totally agree that there's plenty of evidence that the USSR used heaping portions of torture. But that belongs in the Use of torture by governments section. I think the little Torture and confession section needs an update anyway, it hardly touches the subject and then goes off on a tangent about Europe, when this should be about "torture" in general. - Eisnel 10:39, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I reverted changes by 208.178.23.220, I don't think boilerplate about people not condoning torture is an improvement over the previous version. BCoates 00:47, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The second paragraph seems to intentionally imply that torture is and will be practiced anyplace in the world as long as the authorities can arrange appearances to protect themselves from facing up to their crimes. I am not sure that the person who wrote that paragraph intended to make such a blanket condemnation of human nature (or at human nature as it is expressed in the halls of government). Nor am I yet sure that torture will inevitably be practiced in the U.S. providing only that the right face can be put upon the matter -- which seems to me to be the trust of this paragraph. If the writers and others who have worked on this article want to make such a strong claim, then I think it is incumbent upon them to contextualize their charges and also to provide substantiation in the form of scholarly citations, court records, etc. I hope that the U.S. has not fallen to this level of public immorality, but I fear that it has. The facts that I am aware of suggest that civil rights violations, including killing and torture, are visited upon U.S. citizens by governments, quasi-governmental organs (I'm thinking of militias), hate groups, etc. But they also indicate that higher authorities have successfully acted to redress injustices and terminate illegal practices when state and local governments have become corrupt, and that the activities of militias, hate groups, etc. are routinely fought against both by organs of government and by non-governmental organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law organization.
As it stands, the paragraphs mentioned have the quality of dark mutterings in the corner. As such, those who believe that governments are corrupt and evil will concur and those who trust government will selectively disattend to these charges. If there is anything provable to be said against any western governments (or other governments for that matter), then that should be said in the open so that it can by fairly challenged by anyone who does not accept the evidence or the reasoning behind the charges. P0M 07:01, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've had a go at fixing some aspects of the article.
Last, can someone check my summary of the Geneva Conventions to ensure it's factually correct, since when looked at in detail the original wording was ambiguous at some points. FT2 12:56, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
In his book "Why Terrorism Work", Dershowitz puts forward his argument fro the issuing of torture warrants by judges. It goes something like this:
1. There is a conceivable situation, the ticking-bomb terrorist situation, where a terror suspect knows that there is a terrorist attack imminent/bomb already in place, which if allowed to be carried out/go off will kill large numbers of people
2. In this case, law enforcement agencies around the WILL torture that suspect to get the information, regardless of if they are ina democracy or not
3. Is it better to let this happen "under the radar", or to have at least some level of judicial review and control over it?
In Dershowitz's view, the latter is preferable. Is it worth putting this into the article?
The Spanish Inquisition around 1800? Was it still around? Also, Napoleon invaded Spain in the early 1800s, and he would not have accepted torture (judicial torture had been abolished by the French Revolution). David.Monniaux 15:49, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The legal definition should come early in the article not towards the end because one has to define what torture is before describing it. For example it is necessary to define torture as "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed".
If this is not done then the explanations of things like "stress and duress" and "Torture by proxy" and "Secrecy / publicity" are not in context and are not clearly explained. Philip Baird Shearer 09:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Without a clear definition of what torture is it is not possible to understand the current political opposition to torture based around violations of treaties. For example one can not understand why the US government uses the term "stress and duress" unless one has knowledge of the previous ICHR case brought by the Republic of Ireland against the UK and how that effected the drafting and interpretation of UNCAT. Just because you think it is long-winded and irrelevant does not mean that everyone does. It must come a quite a surprise to many people that under international law "stress and duress" techniques are not torture. Philip Baird Shearer 11:05, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also your (Jeeves) argument could be turned on its head if the information on torture is moved in to the Geneva conventions it could be argued that the commentary on torture it is not central to the GC so why not move it into the torture article. Further it covers four separate GC articles and splitting it over four articles is an inelegant solution -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible to find "disinhibition" in the Oxford English Dictionary or another general dictionary, or does it only occure in specialised medical dictionaries: disinhibition? -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A quick seach with Google will show that it's definitely a word in common use, among some groups at the very least.
The Torture article may need to be changed in this regard because it may not react two different kinds of changes that may increase the frequency of a previously inhibited behavior. One way to increase the frequency of, e.g., skinny dipping, is to reduce the sensitivity of the swimmer to negative evaluations given by people who have the status of authority figures (people who count) in his/her society. Another way to increase the frequency of such activity is to change the context in which the behavior occurs (without doing anything to change the conditioned status of the individual). For instance, one might move the prospective skinny dippers to an area where they would be protected from observation by police, nosy neighbors, priests and pastors, etc.
The extreme behavior of Japanese troops during World War II was at variance with the fact that the same individuals would have normally been under very tight social control mitigating against anti-social acts. Japanese civil society was in general a very safe and stable environment for individuals. Japanese people did not behave toward each other as they behaved toward captured enemy soldiers in China, southeast Asia, etc. The Japanese soldiers were not subjected to any known conditioning to reduce their inhibitions against doing violence to others. Instead, the researchers who have studied the phenomenon concluded, the inhibiting factors were inherent in the social matrix in which they existed while in Japan. When that social matrix was replaced, when they were individuals operating in foreign countries and dealing with people who were not any part of a violence-inhibiting matrix, then there were virtually no controls inhibiting them from cruel acts. In other words, violent acts were never controlled by feelings of guilt or shame for the acts per se, but were only controled by social strictures against certain behaviors directed toward members of the social organizations of which one was a part.
The article certainly does not need to go into a discussion of these acts of torture and abuse that occured around 60 years ago, but it probably should take note of the possibility that it is one thing to recondition a prison worker so that s/he feels that it o.k. to torture any human being or at least any human being who becomes a prison inmate, and another thing to present a prison worker with an individual who is somehow defined in his/her mind (perhaps due to another kind of conditioning) as not being a human being and therefore not meriting the compassion ordinarily to be directed toward conspecifics. P0M 01:57, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A recent change says that torture is legal in Israel. Such claims should be provided with citations to specific laws. P0M 14:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See the Uses_of_torture_in_recent_times#Israel article where it's covered better. // Liftarn
See this. http://62.90.71.124/files_eng/94/000/051/a09/94051000.a09.HTM . Israel has made torture - even moderate physical pressure - illegal.
"Held: The Court held that the GSS did not have the authority employ certain methods challenged by the petitioners. The Court also held that the “necessity defense,” found in the Israeli Penal Law, could serve to ex ante allow GSS investigators to employ such interrogation practices. The Court's decision did not negate the possibility that the “necessity defense” would be available post factum to GSS investigators—either in the choice made by the Attorney-General in deciding whether to prosecute, or according to the discretion of the court if criminal charges are brought were brought against them." This is the court's own summary (it is very early on in the decision). It says (simplified) [note GSS is Israel Internal Security Service - like MI5 or the FBI]: The GSS cannot apply physical pressure to prisoners - let alone torture them - for whatever reason. The stuff about "necessary defense" is basically saying that Israeli law - technically - allows it; however this Court (the Supreme Court) thinks it is unconstitutional. Given, though, that a GSS operative tried for torture could claim it is not against the law, the Court says it cannot rule out the possibility s/he would get off in a criminal court. The Supreme COurt is effectively saying torture is wrong, physical pressure is wrong, and the law should be changed in order to stop anyone getting out of punishment on a legal loophole. -- Batmanand 20:19, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the growing information on specific countries into the Uses of torture in recent times article which is in line with the original move of country information from this article into that sub-article. This keeps controversial POVs in the one sub-article and saves the spaghetti linking as was starting to happen with the section on Israel. The Soviet Union information should probably be moved from this article/section into TiRT as well.... -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture see section here in new article.
The problem with this section is that who is it supposed to address? If it is only for an internal US audience then it should be moved into a US section perhaps in Uses of torture in recent times. But given that the US has signed various treaties which outlaw torture how does Bagaric suggest that the US annul its treaty obligations? Philip Baird Shearer
Why give prominence to this paper when it does not effect the legal status of torture either inside the US or internationally? Philip Baird Shearer 13:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
BTW. "Victorian" is not the best word to use given its common usage. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I say move it into another article, because it is loaded with POVs. Don't use the word "legal" in the title as that is covered in this article. I would suggest Ethical arguments regarding torture. The reason for creating Uses of torture in recent times was for similar reasons and it seems to have worked out quite well. At first I thought about qualifying the title with "recent times", but it would probably grow to be an article about the Ethical arguments regarding torture in diffrent ages.
BTW it is not a POV to state that "Torture is an extreme violation of human rights" because as the human rights article points out "These norms are based on the legal and political traditions of United Nations member states and are incorporated into international human rights instruments". If you follow that link to ihri it states: "and conventions, which are legally binding instruments concluded under international law." As torture is covered by several legally binding instruments, (see the article) torture is an extreame violation of human rights. Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Alleged detention and interrogation practices The following are some of the detention or interrogation practices that are alleged to have been authorized or used by the USA during the "war on terror". Some appear to have been tailored to specific cultural or religious sensitivities of the detainees, thereby introducing a discriminatory element to the abuse. Techniques are often used in combination. Neither gender nor age has offered protection. Children, the elderly, women and men are reported to have been among the subjects of torture or ill-treatment. This list does not claim to be exhaustive.
o Abduction o Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on o Blindfolding o "Burking" – hand over detainee’s mouth/nose to prevent breathing o Cell extraction, brutal/punitive use of o Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of o Cigarette burns o Claustrophia-inducing techniques, e.g. tied headfirst in sleeping bag, shut in lockers o Death threats o Dietary manipulation o Dogs used to threaten and intimidate o Dousing in cold water o Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks o Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning o Flags, wrapped in Israeli or US flags during or prior to interrogation o Food and water deprivation o Forced shaving, ie of head, body or facial hair o Forcible injections, including with unidentified substances o Ground, forced to lie on bare ground while agents stand on back or back of legs o Hooding o Hostage-taking, i.e. individuals detained to force surrender of relatives o Humiliation, eg forced crawling, forced to make animal noises, being urinated upon. o Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning o Incommunicado detention o Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation o Light deprivation o Loud music, noise, yelling o Mock execution o Photography and videoing as humiliation o Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc o Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks o Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile") o Prolonged interrogations, eg 20 hours o Racial and religious taunts, humiliation o Relatives, denial of access to, excessive censorship of communications with o Religious intolerance, eg disrespect for Koran, religious rituals o Secret detention o Secret transfer o Sensory deprivation o Sexual humiliation o Sexual assault o Shackles and handcuffs, excessive and cruel use of. Includes "short shackling" o Sleep adjustment o Sleep deprivation o Solitary confinement for prolonged periods, eg months or more than a year o Stress positions, eg prolonged forced kneeling and standing o Stripping, nudity, excessive or humiliating use of o Strip searches, excessive or humiliating use of o Strobe lighting o Suspension, with use of handcuffs/shackles o Threat of rape o Threats of reprisals against relatives o Threat of transfer to third country to inspire fear of torture or death o Threat of transfer to Guantánamo o Threats of torture or ill-treatment o Twenty-four hour bright lighting o Withdrawal of "comfort items", including religious items o Withholding of information, e.g. not telling detainee where he is o Withholding of medication o Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing
4.250.168.145 16:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
"so if the government of a state authorises its personnel to use sensory deprivation on a detainee in territory not under its jurisdiction then it has not broken its treaty obligations.
Whose opinion is this? Is there a reference for it? It would seem to me that if any government is able to "authorise" (give authority for) anything in a certain territory, then it has de-facto jurisdiction.
Pmurray bigpond.com 05:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Not at all. Let us suppose there is a country (A) which has not signed the UN torture treaty, (about half the countries in the world have not), or have not passed laws to enforce it. If another country (B) which has signed the torture treaty, and has domestic law which enforce it, and B's government has its own government operatives in country A it can authorise its employees to use "inhuman or degrading treatment" without breaking its treaty obligations because the territory is not under its jurisdiction. Because Article 2 says "Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction." Article 3 says " No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture." Article 16 says "Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I". So if country B has a person they wish to interrogate they can extradite a person to a country which allows "inhuman or degrading treatment" but not torture without breaking its treaty obligation, and once there its operatives can use "inhuman or degrading treatment" eg sensory deprivation without it breaking Article 2, 3, or 16. Brutal and not within the spirit of the treaty, but legally within treaty obligations. Philip Baird Shearer 08:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed many of the "they"s which are ungrammatical.
For other future editors/writers, please note that "they" should have a plural antecedent. Thus, something like "a person exercises their democratic right by voting" is ungrammatical.
I never use "it" to describe a human being. The sentence is improved in the form "people exercise their democratic right by voting". The whole issue of gender is side-stepped by pluralising the subject of the sentence.
Would you object to this amendment: "A person who is found guilty of war crimes, or is not protected by GCIV becuase of some other expemption, is not protected by GCIV because the Geneva Convention no longer protects that individual"?
I prefer convoluted sentences to syntatically ugly ones (i.e. using "they" to describe one person). Rintrah 13:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How about:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 13:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That satisfies me. :) Rintrah 01:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
see the entry of user 131.111.8.98 -->(Please provide cite for claim that torture violates human rights)
It strikes me that this article is in the wrong order. It ought to start, after the introduction, with the history of torture and the modern status ought to be way down the end somewhere. Does anyone have strong feelings about this, and if not, would they mind if I tried to make a more sensible and logical reordering of the sections? Lao Wai 08:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes I think that a definition of what torture is should come before the other sections. Philip Baird Shearer 08:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The caption for the iron maiden photo in this article states: "The Iron Maiden of Nuremberg was a famous, but probably mythical, torture device"
This is a caption for an actual photograph of the device. How can it possibly be "probably mythical"? This also makes no sense when one reads the actual article about the iron maiden.
I'm editing the caption. Sdr 11:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Would special forces such as Navy SEALs or Marine Force Recon be considered unlawful combatants as they, especially marine force recon, are often called upon to conduct illegal operations?
If they are, it migt be a good idea to state that special forces are sometimes considered unlawful combatants.
I noticed someone had changed one of the terms for strappado from "Palestinian hanging" to "American hanging". I've gone ahead and change it back, for now. I am not familar with the term "American hanging", although strappado has been used by American forces at Abu Ghraib. The term "Palestinian hanging" is a loaded phrase, I'll admit, but is used several times in court documents like Aksoy v. Turkey and was used in news reports in the death of Manadel al-Jamadi at Abu Ghraib. Is there a source for the "American hanging" term? -- YoungFreud 03:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The caption refers to a homosexual being tortured. I'm familiar with this woodblock and all of interpretations I've seen refer to a heritic being tortured, not a homosexual. Heretics were tortured prior to death to give them an 'opportunity' to recant their heresy and thereby avoid hell. Homosexuals generally weren't given that option as they weren't heretics, just run-of-the-mill sinners. I suspect someone's POV at work. I'm modifying the caption to refer to a Heretic being tortured, not a homosexual. -- Lepeu1999 12:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Should have some sources before it is merged here. I am removed the merge request, as there are not sources on the article. When there are some then maybe it can be merged in Philip Baird Shearer 22:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I can find nothing in the article that discusses the question of whether torture is ever an effective means of extracting information. Is it more effective than other means for getting useful information from prisoners?
Everything I've ever heard about torture, and execution for that matter, has proven that it is ineffective. Usually, it does not give effective information, as one would say anything to make the pain stop. There is a debate on both of these points, however. If anyone can find any credible sources, please add them. -- Limetom 00:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques redirects to Torture, but there is no mention of it in the article. — Pengo 09:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I took out the following sentence:
"The use of torture is even endorsed by vice-president Dick Cheney (and president Bush as well) to help the CIA and its henchmen enforce their economical and political pressure on defenseless individuals and countries."
First, I need to see some references to this, to be sure that it is true. And I can hardly believe it is a good idea to call CIA "henchmen". Put the sentence back if you wish, but please put SOURCES to it, and put the "henchmen" a bit midly, because it is almost unacceptable.
-- Msoos 14:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
PS: Henchmen were the SS soldiers exterminating Jews, for example. And even there it might be an exeggeration.
The United States of America is an infamous example of so-called democratic country, which use torture systematically within its borders and in foreign representations, such a Guantanamo Bay and certain eastern european countries and nothern african countries.
Sorry a little pedantry ahead..... HENCHMAN comes from the Old English Hengest (horse) + man. That is he was the person who held a knight's horse during battle (Interestingly the US Cav had Henchmen even down to the Battle of the Greasy Grass River.) it has little to do with Nazis or Republicans Jim Jacobs 14:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this sentence from a section on "Torture by Proxy" for three reasons:
"The United States of America is an infamous example of so-called democratic country, which use torture systematically within its borders and in foreign representations, such a Guantanamo Bay and certain eastern european countries and nothern african countries."
1) I've never edited a Wikipedia article but I've used it several times before and I know for a FACT that by including terms like "infamous" and "so-called" are not neutral point-of-view, at least in the context you use them. If you want to call the U.S. an "infamous example of a so-called democracy", then it is your responsibility to present the FACTS and let the reader decide for himself or herself. For example, talk about what the U.S. did that was infamous, and justify what exact elements or actions make it not really a democracy (if that is you have a factual basis for your claim). There are plenty of places elsewhere on the Internet to make unsubstantiated allegations or criticisms about the actions of the U.S./the U.S. government. Don't do it here where some people (i.e. myself) actually come searching for useful information.
2) The sentence seemed out of context in the place where it was located within the article. The rest of the section "Torture by proxy" talked about an incident with the British government and Uzbekistan, after which this sentence seemed to come out of nowhere.
3) The sentence had poor spelling, poor structure, and did not follow basic grammatical rules like capitalization of proper nouns, rules that should really be followed so that Wikipedia has a polished and professional look. I may be wrong (i.e. this is only my opinion) but I believe the lack of adherence to grammatical rules serves as yet another piece of evidence indicating very strongly that the author of this sentence simply wished to get a quick jab in at the United States rather than honestly contribute to the article.
Please feel free to comment if you feel the deletion was inappropriate. Thank you everybody.
08:49, 11 December 2005
The current text, with most recent edit, has:
The amendment would ensure an end to the U.S. use of alleged torture, inhuman and degrading treatment, and extraordinary rendition, which have become common practice since September 11, 2001 [4].
The way it stands the claim is that the U.S. uses methods of compulsion that allegedly constitute torture, that the U.S. uses inhuman and degrading treatment, etc. The term "allegation" usually refers to propositions claimed by some to be matters of fact and says of those propositions that they have not been verified. The term is not usually used to speak of situations where the facts are not in question but the appropriate term to apply to the facts is uncertain or disputed. P0M 17:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this really be in the list of torture techniques?
Pedophilia is torture because the victim is much to young to consent with full knowledge of the long term consequences. See incest article for more. It is a gross abuse ot the adult perp's power and the young victims innocence even when it SEEMS consensual. This is why we have Statutory Rape laws for adolescents. Sexual use/abuse of young children is the most loathsome form of sexual predation because children are too young to know better and because the long term trauma is often unconscious, chronic and severe. Hope that helps. Please comment. Anacapa 01:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Then you could argue that Y heavily beats X in a mugging, very violent and emotionally scaring, but it isn't torture, its just an "evil" act of one human upon another. I dont think paedophilia is torture, it might seem like it, but technically it isnt as much as rape of an adult is, it could be used as a torture technique, same as beating someone, but when not it isn't.
Why is there a sidebar on tort law? If one commits a "tort" one commits a civil offense. Civil offenses are not crimes. You get sued, not imprisoned. Torture comes from a similar derivation, linguistically speaking, but it is considered a felony, no? If there is some reason for having the sidebar there its relevance should be clearly established. P0M 05:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
There has been much argument in the United States recently about torturing terrorists to gain intelligence to protect innocent victims against terrorist attacks. These are OLD arguments from many past anti-terrorist campaigns such as the unsuccessful French campaign to subdue Algerian freedom fighters through interrogation and torture. I want to see us include a section here to show these arguments because we seem to regurgitate the same old arguments over and over again as if they were new. Peters in Torture (1985) does a fine job of showing how old these arguments are. Can we show this above the Law section in this article since our goverments use these arguments to justify what some people belief are extralegal or extra-treaty applications of torture? Anacapa 01:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Anacapa 02:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
An 83 page, detailed log of the torture of Mohammed al-Qahtani. More information on the torture here here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Noosphere ( talk • contribs) 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
That is a statement. I would not have thought that wikipedia endorses torture. Markus Schmaus 18:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd say it was a stated fact and not an endorsement.
I notice this article seems to be focussed on state torture and that some texts also limit the definition of torture to state torture. However, when a child is tortured for many long years by a parent or a pscyhiatric patient is tortured many long years in an institution is that considered torture too? I am asking an open question to try to firm up the scope of torture here.
It seems that people are beginning to make distinctions between different levels of pain vi a vi torture in the article which is good. However, I have concerns about letting bureaucratic classifications be the sole source of this definition. I know that terrible torture can also be committed in families, day care centers, and non-political psychiatric institutions beyond state control just by reading the papers.
I would like to see us study and show some other criteria for what is torture and what isn't torture as some editors above did with different levels of pain so that we know right up front what the scope of this definition is. As I read I notice that it is handled differently author to author but suspect there is some common ground somewhere. Can anyone state the scope or consensus limits on the definition of torture relative to 'who', 'what', 'where', 'why', 'how', when etc.? so we all can edit inside a common, distinct and limited definition? Anacapa 06:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Big scandal and cover-up described in recent Guardian news article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1745489,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.32.136 ( talk • contribs)
The section about torture in ficiton gives away the premise for the film Hostel. A spoiler warning should be added.
"U.S. compliance with the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment will be the topic of May 5 and 8 U.N. hearings in Geneva." [8] -- noosphere 19:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"A human rights project, The Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project (DAA), released a report in Washington saying that allegations of detainee abuse, torture and killings have now implicated at least 600 U.S. military and civilian personnel deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the prison for terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." [9] -- noosph e re 22:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Is is this too contentious? Skinnyweed 16:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In the section "Other meanings of the word" there was a link to "Genitorture" which I have removed since Genitorture is a redirect straight back to here. There are a few other pages that link to Genitorture, which I have left alone. However, it seems there is some need to include at least a definition, expandible by anyone who feels so inclined, under the Genitorture heading, because this article scarcely touches upon the subject.-- King Hildebrand 10:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the first line contains "as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, or information gathering." Torture is torture, no matter what the reason for the intentional infliction is. If torture is inflicted because to provide the inflictor a sense of control, it is nonetheless torture. If a nutcase tortures someone because he believes it will "drive Satan out," it is nonetheless torture. If torture is inflicted for no reason at all, it is still torture. Why reduce the meaning of torture to an arbitrary list of "reasons for its infliction?"-- JohnCPope 16:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
There has been so much talk on it saying it is a fake. One user has posted that one book, The Medieval Underworld, shows woodcuts of it in use. This I feel can be used as proof that it did exist. There are no pictures to confirm this. I would like someone to show this proof on the article.
I'm starting to think the same, Lao. 65.255.130.104 00:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)VonV
Mobbing is a form of psychological torture or terror which takes place in the workplace. You can find more information at http://mobbing.ca. The "Health Issues" page on mobbing.ca ( http://members.shaw.ca/mobbing/mobbingCA/health-1.htm) describes the many mental, emotional and physical effects of psychological torture experienced by mobbing targets in the workplace.
For your convenience here is the link you can add to "External links" in the "Psychological Torture" subsection:
Radyx 22:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Unlawful combatants"
The term "unlawful combatants" appears nowhere in the Geneva Conventions and, furthermore, is not even a term in broader international law as a whole. The term was invented by the current Bush Administration for the purposes of circumventing the Conventions while maintaining an appearance of legality and due process. Although international law is not legislated like national law, it also cannot simply be invented at the whim of individual countries and much less by single administrations: quite the contrary, international law is whatever is considered, by consensus, to be the norm. Thus, the claim made by this article that,
is entirely false. There is no implication in legal discourse of such a third category. One is either a combatant or not. If the former, they are entitled to prisoner-of-war status. If the latter, there is no legal basis for their detention by military forces and it is therefore unlawful detention. Further references to the term in this article as though it were an actual legal term in international law are therefore either the result of an incorrect or misinformed understanding, or, worse, an attempt to justify someone else's political agenda. I will assume that they are the result of the former. I will also remove such references from this article.
"Competent Tribunal"
There are further problems with the representation of international law in this article. For example, how do we determine who is, and who is not, a combatant? By means of a competent tribunal. On this point the article also states,
This is as false as the nonsense about "unlawful combatants". If the tribunal is not impartial (i.e. "neutral"), then it is not, and cannot be called, a competent tribunal.
More serious problems?
I will immediately fix the problem of references to "unlawful combatants," but it seems to me there is probably a much larger issue with this article's references to, and understanding of, international law. I'll review as much of this as I can over the next few days. --
Todeswalzer |
Talk
02:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
No the term unlawful combatant was not invented by the Bush administraton. It was first used in US Domestic law in
ex parte Quirin (1942).
See also: The legal situation of unlawful/unprivileged combatants (IRRC March 2003 Vol.85 No 849) Whereas the terms "combatant" "prisoner of war" and "civilian" are generally used and defined in the treaties of international humanitarian law, the terms "unlawful combatant", "unprivileged combatants/belligerents" do not appear in them. They have, however, been frequently used at least since the beginning of the last century in legal literature, military manuals and case law. The connotations given to these terms and their consequences for the applicable protection regime are not always very clear.
See also: Under Article 47 of Protocol I ( Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts) it is stated in the first sentence "A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war." So what is a mercenary if not an unlawful combatant? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
A mercenaries are criminals, because they are defined as such in Protocol I Article 47, but they are a specific type of criminal who may not have broken any civil law, but if they "in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities", they are a mercenary. So a state can hold them for being in breach of Protocol I, but they may not have breached a civil law, and they "shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war". In which case what are they if not unlawful combatants?
What are child soldiers if not unlawful combatant? The are not necessarily criminals, but if they take part in hostilites the state is in breach of Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 38, ergo they are unlawful combatants, although persumably it is the person who had conscripted them into a position where they take part in hostilites who is the criminal. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Another for the pot: In the Hostages Trial (1947) if was found that ""We are obliged to hold that such guerrillas were francs tireurs who, upon capture, could be subjected to the death penalty. Consequently, no criminal responsibility attaches to the defendant List because of the execution of captured partisans..." -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing Elton John, unless it isn't just a singer. Isaiah A. 06:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it make more sense for the torture article to have the subjects "Psychological torture methods", "Physical torture methods", "Torture devices", and "Methods of execution and capital punishment" be links leading to new pages of the same names rather than large incomplete lists included in the main page? Also by moving the listed items into new pages they could be identified by tags obviously stating that they are not complete lists of various torture devices/techniques. -- 71.208.33.220 03:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I meant to add the form of torturous execution carried about by pouring a molten metal down a persons throat. However, I vaguely recall a specific term, so I thought I'd mention the method and see if anyone else remembered. 69.119.65.231 10:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.119.65.231 ( talk) 10:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
Apparently the word 'niggers' has slipped into the mix, completely out of context, and my inability to understand enough about how Wikipedia works doesn't let me find out how or where it was inserted to be able to edit it out.
The following text has been observed in the 'controlling populace' section:
Although information gathered by torture is niggers often worthless, torture has been used to terrorize and subdue populations to enforce state control. cf: Gulag
Highlight mine. So would someone who knows better how to fix... uh... fix?
204.116.154.118 23:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
this phrase appears at the bottom of the forth paragraph. In addition to using incorrect punctuation, the phrase makes, with the, "of course" clause, the assumption that the reader has some definitive knowledge that Israel uses torture before reading the article. this phrase is therefore unencyclopedic in tone. I am cleaning up the sentence, and placing Israel at the same level of expectation for torture usage as the other two nations mentioned. I am also removing the "perhaps more surprisingly" phrase, which lends itself subject to individual perspective. -- Amanaplanacanalpanama 08:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
That information will continue to be rv'ed as POV and uncited, unless something is done to change its phrasing and its citation. The current citation goes to an interview that does not even MENTION the United States and Great Britain in connection with Amnesty International, and furthermore nowhere says explicitly what the cited statement says, i.e. "Israel does not abide by the spirit of its treaties." As such it is speculative and OR.
I have added a disputed tag to psychological torture and physical torture methods, as not all methods are universally or even by a plurality of the population to be torture. I have added a dispute and OR tag to the execution/capital punishment section, as it has effectively declared all methods of capital punishment to be torture, along with some general crimes against humanity thrown in that do not constitute torture. Doing so invalidates the very real problem of torture, by misdirecting attention and confusing topics of concern. - MSTCrow 17:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
A large part of this article seems to have been deleted by this IP address 86.130.208.0 (see Revision as of 23:24, 10 November 2006 -- Revision as of 19:52, 13 November 2006) with no explanation in the history as to why it was deleted and that IP address only ever made those two edits (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.130.208.0) Therefore I think this was a case of vandalism and I am restoring those parts which have not already been restored. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I've also read that in medieval times torture was a fairly common way to earn a living: bandits would drive around and string up villagers by both feet, then smash one leg with a hammer and 'ransom' them for the other leg. Is it worth going into more detail about different torture-purposes in the middle ages? christians weren't the only people to hurt people. Brentstrahan 13:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is against torture, which in some ways is understandable but I would certainly love to see some arguements in favor of it included to make this article more complete. KenBest 18:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
"torture is practiced by perverted individuals who enjoyed the sadistic pleasure of causing and observing agony"
This seems a bit of a NPOV violation. A good encyclopedia presents facts, not labels.
it appears that the opening of the article defines torture in part by the uses or ends which are sougth by its use: "Torture is any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, a deterrent, revenge, a punishment, or as a method for the extraction of information or confessions ..." In light of that i think the previous writer has a point - torture may be a means to a form of pleasure as well as a merely utilitarian technique. The article should be edited to distinguish what torture is from the ends which it serves. it may very well be that it will be difficult to find people willing to perform the merely utilitarian work of extracting confessions,etc., unless they come to like their work! Richard Rosenberg
What on earth is this link? I removed it since it contains absolutely zero information besides "Nine Evil Republicans."
As a starting point for better defining torture, here is what the UN Convention Against Torture says: (taken from http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html )
For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
At the moment the article says:
But that is not what the "Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment" says. What it says is:
This means that if the person is handed over and it does not involve "expel", "return", or "extradite", then the treaty had not been broken, even if the "organization or country where it is foreseeable that torture would occur is regarded as a violation of the Torture Convention". This may not be in the sprit of the Treaty but it is within the wording.
For example if Country A has armed foreces with expertise which helps Country B to capture Mr X a citizen of country B, inside country B, if Mr X is then handed over to the tortures of country B, the treaty had not been broken because, the person had not been expel, return ("refouler") or extradite. Philip Baird Shearer
I would suggest to take out the whole reference re Execution. While death is obviously one of the outcomes of torture there appears to me a major difference between "death in captivity" and a formal execution based on a court judgement.
I would also suggest to put in the complete UN convention definition. It is not really a major debating point what constitutes torture. The definition is clear enough and courts around the world have also drawn the lines quite clearly. The controversy - as far as it stands - is more concerned with whether there are instances when torture would be a legitimate.
I will try and continue to update this section
Refdoc
I think the section on Execution is pertinent to the subject of torture. Many listed forms of execution and capital punishment bear much similarity to forms of torture and differ only in their intentions. In a sense execution is torture to a different degree. Whereas one might use electrocution in order to extract information or cause psychological or physical harm, another uses it to execute someone.
Ross
The Geneva Conventions outlaw the torture and execution of prisoners. But rulings by the European Court of Human Rights found that sleep or food deprivation, sustained noise, forced standing and sensory deprivation (called "hooding") are not considered torture.
There are lots of qualifications on the Geneva Conventions. For a start it depends which treaty, and it depends on the person's status. I have altered the UK section to include details of the ECHR Ireland v. the UK ruling which is the one referred to.
I think that there needs to be a section on the Treaties which bind countries and a mention that many countries have included domestic law to prohabitions. Philip Baird Shearer 08:53, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm writing about the inclusion of lethal injection as a "potentially painful method" here. I know there's a huge amount of debate on the issue, but I was unaware that people can feel pain when every nerve in their body has been depolarized. Pakaran . 02:26, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What is it about topics related to torture and interrogation that villains described in detail are largely CIA and Israelies? Has there not been enough torture elsewhere? Or is this back to the pour dirt on the "hypocritical West" agenda while ignoring bigger crimes of the rest of the world? Watcher 10:37, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I've removed the following link: * The Guardian, Friday May 7, 2004: Torture as pornography, The pictures of American soldiers humiliating Iraqi detainees are reminiscent of sadomasochistic porn, says military historian Joanna Bourke. And we should not be surprised While I think it's an article worth reading, I feel that it is more sort of an essayistic comment and too much centered around the particular Abu Ghraib incidents to be included here. regards, High on a tree 17:21, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This is not the place for an editorial on the "systematic use of torture by the united states". - Tεx τ urε 16:08, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Tha article referenced in [1] above Washington Post: Torture Policy (cont'd) Monday, June 21, 2004; Page A18 does not say that in US "Officially sanctioned torture has occurred". What the Americans have done is use simlar criteria to the UK in the early 1970s and tried to use as much physical force as possible without resorting to torture. The only international court ruling on this, is the one by the ECHR when it ruled against UK for The five (sensory deprivation) techniques and found the UK in breach of Article 3 in that the methods amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment but they did not occasion suffering of the particular intensity and cruelty implied by the word torture as so understood.
This of course is no way binding on the US, but it is an indication of what lawers in international law thinks defines torture and from what the US administration seems to be saying is a similar legal bench mark which they use. This may not be what many people think of as ethical behaviour but it does mean that the US has not breached its treaty obligations and used torture. So as that source does not describe the US using torture "just" methods which verge on torture, I am going to alter it to point to the UK example. Philip Baird Shearer 18:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Technically there is no proof yet of US use of organized torture as of date of this redaction. Removed this from document. Probably it would be better to refer to a nation in which torture is used as part of official policy, or better yet, avoid political redaction all together. -Steve Jackson
Fred had added "the Soviet Union and" in front of "Europe" in the Torture and confession section, but I didn't feel it made sense there. First of all, it was refering to Europe in the medieval and early modern (whatever that means) times, and the USSR wasn't around then. Secondly, the USSR is considered part of Eastern Europe, so it's already included in Europe. I totally agree that there's plenty of evidence that the USSR used heaping portions of torture. But that belongs in the Use of torture by governments section. I think the little Torture and confession section needs an update anyway, it hardly touches the subject and then goes off on a tangent about Europe, when this should be about "torture" in general. - Eisnel 10:39, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I reverted changes by 208.178.23.220, I don't think boilerplate about people not condoning torture is an improvement over the previous version. BCoates 00:47, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The second paragraph seems to intentionally imply that torture is and will be practiced anyplace in the world as long as the authorities can arrange appearances to protect themselves from facing up to their crimes. I am not sure that the person who wrote that paragraph intended to make such a blanket condemnation of human nature (or at human nature as it is expressed in the halls of government). Nor am I yet sure that torture will inevitably be practiced in the U.S. providing only that the right face can be put upon the matter -- which seems to me to be the trust of this paragraph. If the writers and others who have worked on this article want to make such a strong claim, then I think it is incumbent upon them to contextualize their charges and also to provide substantiation in the form of scholarly citations, court records, etc. I hope that the U.S. has not fallen to this level of public immorality, but I fear that it has. The facts that I am aware of suggest that civil rights violations, including killing and torture, are visited upon U.S. citizens by governments, quasi-governmental organs (I'm thinking of militias), hate groups, etc. But they also indicate that higher authorities have successfully acted to redress injustices and terminate illegal practices when state and local governments have become corrupt, and that the activities of militias, hate groups, etc. are routinely fought against both by organs of government and by non-governmental organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law organization.
As it stands, the paragraphs mentioned have the quality of dark mutterings in the corner. As such, those who believe that governments are corrupt and evil will concur and those who trust government will selectively disattend to these charges. If there is anything provable to be said against any western governments (or other governments for that matter), then that should be said in the open so that it can by fairly challenged by anyone who does not accept the evidence or the reasoning behind the charges. P0M 07:01, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've had a go at fixing some aspects of the article.
Last, can someone check my summary of the Geneva Conventions to ensure it's factually correct, since when looked at in detail the original wording was ambiguous at some points. FT2 12:56, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
In his book "Why Terrorism Work", Dershowitz puts forward his argument fro the issuing of torture warrants by judges. It goes something like this:
1. There is a conceivable situation, the ticking-bomb terrorist situation, where a terror suspect knows that there is a terrorist attack imminent/bomb already in place, which if allowed to be carried out/go off will kill large numbers of people
2. In this case, law enforcement agencies around the WILL torture that suspect to get the information, regardless of if they are ina democracy or not
3. Is it better to let this happen "under the radar", or to have at least some level of judicial review and control over it?
In Dershowitz's view, the latter is preferable. Is it worth putting this into the article?
The Spanish Inquisition around 1800? Was it still around? Also, Napoleon invaded Spain in the early 1800s, and he would not have accepted torture (judicial torture had been abolished by the French Revolution). David.Monniaux 15:49, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The legal definition should come early in the article not towards the end because one has to define what torture is before describing it. For example it is necessary to define torture as "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed".
If this is not done then the explanations of things like "stress and duress" and "Torture by proxy" and "Secrecy / publicity" are not in context and are not clearly explained. Philip Baird Shearer 09:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Without a clear definition of what torture is it is not possible to understand the current political opposition to torture based around violations of treaties. For example one can not understand why the US government uses the term "stress and duress" unless one has knowledge of the previous ICHR case brought by the Republic of Ireland against the UK and how that effected the drafting and interpretation of UNCAT. Just because you think it is long-winded and irrelevant does not mean that everyone does. It must come a quite a surprise to many people that under international law "stress and duress" techniques are not torture. Philip Baird Shearer 11:05, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also your (Jeeves) argument could be turned on its head if the information on torture is moved in to the Geneva conventions it could be argued that the commentary on torture it is not central to the GC so why not move it into the torture article. Further it covers four separate GC articles and splitting it over four articles is an inelegant solution -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is it possible to find "disinhibition" in the Oxford English Dictionary or another general dictionary, or does it only occure in specialised medical dictionaries: disinhibition? -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:00, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A quick seach with Google will show that it's definitely a word in common use, among some groups at the very least.
The Torture article may need to be changed in this regard because it may not react two different kinds of changes that may increase the frequency of a previously inhibited behavior. One way to increase the frequency of, e.g., skinny dipping, is to reduce the sensitivity of the swimmer to negative evaluations given by people who have the status of authority figures (people who count) in his/her society. Another way to increase the frequency of such activity is to change the context in which the behavior occurs (without doing anything to change the conditioned status of the individual). For instance, one might move the prospective skinny dippers to an area where they would be protected from observation by police, nosy neighbors, priests and pastors, etc.
The extreme behavior of Japanese troops during World War II was at variance with the fact that the same individuals would have normally been under very tight social control mitigating against anti-social acts. Japanese civil society was in general a very safe and stable environment for individuals. Japanese people did not behave toward each other as they behaved toward captured enemy soldiers in China, southeast Asia, etc. The Japanese soldiers were not subjected to any known conditioning to reduce their inhibitions against doing violence to others. Instead, the researchers who have studied the phenomenon concluded, the inhibiting factors were inherent in the social matrix in which they existed while in Japan. When that social matrix was replaced, when they were individuals operating in foreign countries and dealing with people who were not any part of a violence-inhibiting matrix, then there were virtually no controls inhibiting them from cruel acts. In other words, violent acts were never controlled by feelings of guilt or shame for the acts per se, but were only controled by social strictures against certain behaviors directed toward members of the social organizations of which one was a part.
The article certainly does not need to go into a discussion of these acts of torture and abuse that occured around 60 years ago, but it probably should take note of the possibility that it is one thing to recondition a prison worker so that s/he feels that it o.k. to torture any human being or at least any human being who becomes a prison inmate, and another thing to present a prison worker with an individual who is somehow defined in his/her mind (perhaps due to another kind of conditioning) as not being a human being and therefore not meriting the compassion ordinarily to be directed toward conspecifics. P0M 01:57, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A recent change says that torture is legal in Israel. Such claims should be provided with citations to specific laws. P0M 14:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See the Uses_of_torture_in_recent_times#Israel article where it's covered better. // Liftarn
See this. http://62.90.71.124/files_eng/94/000/051/a09/94051000.a09.HTM . Israel has made torture - even moderate physical pressure - illegal.
"Held: The Court held that the GSS did not have the authority employ certain methods challenged by the petitioners. The Court also held that the “necessity defense,” found in the Israeli Penal Law, could serve to ex ante allow GSS investigators to employ such interrogation practices. The Court's decision did not negate the possibility that the “necessity defense” would be available post factum to GSS investigators—either in the choice made by the Attorney-General in deciding whether to prosecute, or according to the discretion of the court if criminal charges are brought were brought against them." This is the court's own summary (it is very early on in the decision). It says (simplified) [note GSS is Israel Internal Security Service - like MI5 or the FBI]: The GSS cannot apply physical pressure to prisoners - let alone torture them - for whatever reason. The stuff about "necessary defense" is basically saying that Israeli law - technically - allows it; however this Court (the Supreme Court) thinks it is unconstitutional. Given, though, that a GSS operative tried for torture could claim it is not against the law, the Court says it cannot rule out the possibility s/he would get off in a criminal court. The Supreme COurt is effectively saying torture is wrong, physical pressure is wrong, and the law should be changed in order to stop anyone getting out of punishment on a legal loophole. -- Batmanand 20:19, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have moved the growing information on specific countries into the Uses of torture in recent times article which is in line with the original move of country information from this article into that sub-article. This keeps controversial POVs in the one sub-article and saves the spaghetti linking as was starting to happen with the section on Israel. The Soviet Union information should probably be moved from this article/section into TiRT as well.... -- Philip Baird Shearer 17:39, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ethical arguments regarding torture see section here in new article.
The problem with this section is that who is it supposed to address? If it is only for an internal US audience then it should be moved into a US section perhaps in Uses of torture in recent times. But given that the US has signed various treaties which outlaw torture how does Bagaric suggest that the US annul its treaty obligations? Philip Baird Shearer
Why give prominence to this paper when it does not effect the legal status of torture either inside the US or internationally? Philip Baird Shearer 13:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
BTW. "Victorian" is not the best word to use given its common usage. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
I say move it into another article, because it is loaded with POVs. Don't use the word "legal" in the title as that is covered in this article. I would suggest Ethical arguments regarding torture. The reason for creating Uses of torture in recent times was for similar reasons and it seems to have worked out quite well. At first I thought about qualifying the title with "recent times", but it would probably grow to be an article about the Ethical arguments regarding torture in diffrent ages.
BTW it is not a POV to state that "Torture is an extreme violation of human rights" because as the human rights article points out "These norms are based on the legal and political traditions of United Nations member states and are incorporated into international human rights instruments". If you follow that link to ihri it states: "and conventions, which are legally binding instruments concluded under international law." As torture is covered by several legally binding instruments, (see the article) torture is an extreame violation of human rights. Philip Baird Shearer 11:26, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Alleged detention and interrogation practices The following are some of the detention or interrogation practices that are alleged to have been authorized or used by the USA during the "war on terror". Some appear to have been tailored to specific cultural or religious sensitivities of the detainees, thereby introducing a discriminatory element to the abuse. Techniques are often used in combination. Neither gender nor age has offered protection. Children, the elderly, women and men are reported to have been among the subjects of torture or ill-treatment. This list does not claim to be exhaustive.
o Abduction o Barbed wire, forced to walk barefoot on o Blindfolding o "Burking" – hand over detainee’s mouth/nose to prevent breathing o Cell extraction, brutal/punitive use of o Chemical/pepper spray, misuse of o Cigarette burns o Claustrophia-inducing techniques, e.g. tied headfirst in sleeping bag, shut in lockers o Death threats o Dietary manipulation o Dogs used to threaten and intimidate o Dousing in cold water o Electric shocks, threats of electric shocks o Exposure to weather and temperature extremes, especially via air-conditioning o Flags, wrapped in Israeli or US flags during or prior to interrogation o Food and water deprivation o Forced shaving, ie of head, body or facial hair o Forcible injections, including with unidentified substances o Ground, forced to lie on bare ground while agents stand on back or back of legs o Hooding o Hostage-taking, i.e. individuals detained to force surrender of relatives o Humiliation, eg forced crawling, forced to make animal noises, being urinated upon. o Immersion in water to induce perception of drowning o Incommunicado detention o Induced perception of suffocation or asyphxiation o Light deprivation o Loud music, noise, yelling o Mock execution o Photography and videoing as humiliation o Physical assault, eg punching, kicking, beatings with hands, hose, batons, guns, etc o Physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, e.g. "ups and downs", carrying rocks o Piling, i.e. detainee is sat on or jumped on by one or more people ("dog/pig pile") o Prolonged interrogations, eg 20 hours o Racial and religious taunts, humiliation o Relatives, denial of access to, excessive censorship of communications with o Religious intolerance, eg disrespect for Koran, religious rituals o Secret detention o Secret transfer o Sensory deprivation o Sexual humiliation o Sexual assault o Shackles and handcuffs, excessive and cruel use of. Includes "short shackling" o Sleep adjustment o Sleep deprivation o Solitary confinement for prolonged periods, eg months or more than a year o Stress positions, eg prolonged forced kneeling and standing o Stripping, nudity, excessive or humiliating use of o Strip searches, excessive or humiliating use of o Strobe lighting o Suspension, with use of handcuffs/shackles o Threat of rape o Threats of reprisals against relatives o Threat of transfer to third country to inspire fear of torture or death o Threat of transfer to Guantánamo o Threats of torture or ill-treatment o Twenty-four hour bright lighting o Withdrawal of "comfort items", including religious items o Withholding of information, e.g. not telling detainee where he is o Withholding of medication o Withholding of toilet facilities, leading to defecation and urination in clothing
4.250.168.145 16:19, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
"so if the government of a state authorises its personnel to use sensory deprivation on a detainee in territory not under its jurisdiction then it has not broken its treaty obligations.
Whose opinion is this? Is there a reference for it? It would seem to me that if any government is able to "authorise" (give authority for) anything in a certain territory, then it has de-facto jurisdiction.
Pmurray bigpond.com 05:46, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Not at all. Let us suppose there is a country (A) which has not signed the UN torture treaty, (about half the countries in the world have not), or have not passed laws to enforce it. If another country (B) which has signed the torture treaty, and has domestic law which enforce it, and B's government has its own government operatives in country A it can authorise its employees to use "inhuman or degrading treatment" without breaking its treaty obligations because the territory is not under its jurisdiction. Because Article 2 says "Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction." Article 3 says " No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture." Article 16 says "Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article I". So if country B has a person they wish to interrogate they can extradite a person to a country which allows "inhuman or degrading treatment" but not torture without breaking its treaty obligation, and once there its operatives can use "inhuman or degrading treatment" eg sensory deprivation without it breaking Article 2, 3, or 16. Brutal and not within the spirit of the treaty, but legally within treaty obligations. Philip Baird Shearer 08:47, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have removed many of the "they"s which are ungrammatical.
For other future editors/writers, please note that "they" should have a plural antecedent. Thus, something like "a person exercises their democratic right by voting" is ungrammatical.
I never use "it" to describe a human being. The sentence is improved in the form "people exercise their democratic right by voting". The whole issue of gender is side-stepped by pluralising the subject of the sentence.
Would you object to this amendment: "A person who is found guilty of war crimes, or is not protected by GCIV becuase of some other expemption, is not protected by GCIV because the Geneva Convention no longer protects that individual"?
I prefer convoluted sentences to syntatically ugly ones (i.e. using "they" to describe one person). Rintrah 13:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
How about:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 13:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That satisfies me. :) Rintrah 01:59, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
see the entry of user 131.111.8.98 -->(Please provide cite for claim that torture violates human rights)
It strikes me that this article is in the wrong order. It ought to start, after the introduction, with the history of torture and the modern status ought to be way down the end somewhere. Does anyone have strong feelings about this, and if not, would they mind if I tried to make a more sensible and logical reordering of the sections? Lao Wai 08:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes I think that a definition of what torture is should come before the other sections. Philip Baird Shearer 08:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
The caption for the iron maiden photo in this article states: "The Iron Maiden of Nuremberg was a famous, but probably mythical, torture device"
This is a caption for an actual photograph of the device. How can it possibly be "probably mythical"? This also makes no sense when one reads the actual article about the iron maiden.
I'm editing the caption. Sdr 11:53, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Would special forces such as Navy SEALs or Marine Force Recon be considered unlawful combatants as they, especially marine force recon, are often called upon to conduct illegal operations?
If they are, it migt be a good idea to state that special forces are sometimes considered unlawful combatants.
I noticed someone had changed one of the terms for strappado from "Palestinian hanging" to "American hanging". I've gone ahead and change it back, for now. I am not familar with the term "American hanging", although strappado has been used by American forces at Abu Ghraib. The term "Palestinian hanging" is a loaded phrase, I'll admit, but is used several times in court documents like Aksoy v. Turkey and was used in news reports in the death of Manadel al-Jamadi at Abu Ghraib. Is there a source for the "American hanging" term? -- YoungFreud 03:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
The caption refers to a homosexual being tortured. I'm familiar with this woodblock and all of interpretations I've seen refer to a heritic being tortured, not a homosexual. Heretics were tortured prior to death to give them an 'opportunity' to recant their heresy and thereby avoid hell. Homosexuals generally weren't given that option as they weren't heretics, just run-of-the-mill sinners. I suspect someone's POV at work. I'm modifying the caption to refer to a Heretic being tortured, not a homosexual. -- Lepeu1999 12:54, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Should have some sources before it is merged here. I am removed the merge request, as there are not sources on the article. When there are some then maybe it can be merged in Philip Baird Shearer 22:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I can find nothing in the article that discusses the question of whether torture is ever an effective means of extracting information. Is it more effective than other means for getting useful information from prisoners?
Everything I've ever heard about torture, and execution for that matter, has proven that it is ineffective. Usually, it does not give effective information, as one would say anything to make the pain stop. There is a debate on both of these points, however. If anyone can find any credible sources, please add them. -- Limetom 00:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques redirects to Torture, but there is no mention of it in the article. — Pengo 09:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
I took out the following sentence:
"The use of torture is even endorsed by vice-president Dick Cheney (and president Bush as well) to help the CIA and its henchmen enforce their economical and political pressure on defenseless individuals and countries."
First, I need to see some references to this, to be sure that it is true. And I can hardly believe it is a good idea to call CIA "henchmen". Put the sentence back if you wish, but please put SOURCES to it, and put the "henchmen" a bit midly, because it is almost unacceptable.
-- Msoos 14:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
PS: Henchmen were the SS soldiers exterminating Jews, for example. And even there it might be an exeggeration.
The United States of America is an infamous example of so-called democratic country, which use torture systematically within its borders and in foreign representations, such a Guantanamo Bay and certain eastern european countries and nothern african countries.
Sorry a little pedantry ahead..... HENCHMAN comes from the Old English Hengest (horse) + man. That is he was the person who held a knight's horse during battle (Interestingly the US Cav had Henchmen even down to the Battle of the Greasy Grass River.) it has little to do with Nazis or Republicans Jim Jacobs 14:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I deleted this sentence from a section on "Torture by Proxy" for three reasons:
"The United States of America is an infamous example of so-called democratic country, which use torture systematically within its borders and in foreign representations, such a Guantanamo Bay and certain eastern european countries and nothern african countries."
1) I've never edited a Wikipedia article but I've used it several times before and I know for a FACT that by including terms like "infamous" and "so-called" are not neutral point-of-view, at least in the context you use them. If you want to call the U.S. an "infamous example of a so-called democracy", then it is your responsibility to present the FACTS and let the reader decide for himself or herself. For example, talk about what the U.S. did that was infamous, and justify what exact elements or actions make it not really a democracy (if that is you have a factual basis for your claim). There are plenty of places elsewhere on the Internet to make unsubstantiated allegations or criticisms about the actions of the U.S./the U.S. government. Don't do it here where some people (i.e. myself) actually come searching for useful information.
2) The sentence seemed out of context in the place where it was located within the article. The rest of the section "Torture by proxy" talked about an incident with the British government and Uzbekistan, after which this sentence seemed to come out of nowhere.
3) The sentence had poor spelling, poor structure, and did not follow basic grammatical rules like capitalization of proper nouns, rules that should really be followed so that Wikipedia has a polished and professional look. I may be wrong (i.e. this is only my opinion) but I believe the lack of adherence to grammatical rules serves as yet another piece of evidence indicating very strongly that the author of this sentence simply wished to get a quick jab in at the United States rather than honestly contribute to the article.
Please feel free to comment if you feel the deletion was inappropriate. Thank you everybody.
08:49, 11 December 2005
The current text, with most recent edit, has:
The amendment would ensure an end to the U.S. use of alleged torture, inhuman and degrading treatment, and extraordinary rendition, which have become common practice since September 11, 2001 [4].
The way it stands the claim is that the U.S. uses methods of compulsion that allegedly constitute torture, that the U.S. uses inhuman and degrading treatment, etc. The term "allegation" usually refers to propositions claimed by some to be matters of fact and says of those propositions that they have not been verified. The term is not usually used to speak of situations where the facts are not in question but the appropriate term to apply to the facts is uncertain or disputed. P0M 17:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
Should this really be in the list of torture techniques?
Pedophilia is torture because the victim is much to young to consent with full knowledge of the long term consequences. See incest article for more. It is a gross abuse ot the adult perp's power and the young victims innocence even when it SEEMS consensual. This is why we have Statutory Rape laws for adolescents. Sexual use/abuse of young children is the most loathsome form of sexual predation because children are too young to know better and because the long term trauma is often unconscious, chronic and severe. Hope that helps. Please comment. Anacapa 01:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Then you could argue that Y heavily beats X in a mugging, very violent and emotionally scaring, but it isn't torture, its just an "evil" act of one human upon another. I dont think paedophilia is torture, it might seem like it, but technically it isnt as much as rape of an adult is, it could be used as a torture technique, same as beating someone, but when not it isn't.
Why is there a sidebar on tort law? If one commits a "tort" one commits a civil offense. Civil offenses are not crimes. You get sued, not imprisoned. Torture comes from a similar derivation, linguistically speaking, but it is considered a felony, no? If there is some reason for having the sidebar there its relevance should be clearly established. P0M 05:05, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
There has been much argument in the United States recently about torturing terrorists to gain intelligence to protect innocent victims against terrorist attacks. These are OLD arguments from many past anti-terrorist campaigns such as the unsuccessful French campaign to subdue Algerian freedom fighters through interrogation and torture. I want to see us include a section here to show these arguments because we seem to regurgitate the same old arguments over and over again as if they were new. Peters in Torture (1985) does a fine job of showing how old these arguments are. Can we show this above the Law section in this article since our goverments use these arguments to justify what some people belief are extralegal or extra-treaty applications of torture? Anacapa 01:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Anacapa 02:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
An 83 page, detailed log of the torture of Mohammed al-Qahtani. More information on the torture here here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Noosphere ( talk • contribs) 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
That is a statement. I would not have thought that wikipedia endorses torture. Markus Schmaus 18:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd say it was a stated fact and not an endorsement.
I notice this article seems to be focussed on state torture and that some texts also limit the definition of torture to state torture. However, when a child is tortured for many long years by a parent or a pscyhiatric patient is tortured many long years in an institution is that considered torture too? I am asking an open question to try to firm up the scope of torture here.
It seems that people are beginning to make distinctions between different levels of pain vi a vi torture in the article which is good. However, I have concerns about letting bureaucratic classifications be the sole source of this definition. I know that terrible torture can also be committed in families, day care centers, and non-political psychiatric institutions beyond state control just by reading the papers.
I would like to see us study and show some other criteria for what is torture and what isn't torture as some editors above did with different levels of pain so that we know right up front what the scope of this definition is. As I read I notice that it is handled differently author to author but suspect there is some common ground somewhere. Can anyone state the scope or consensus limits on the definition of torture relative to 'who', 'what', 'where', 'why', 'how', when etc.? so we all can edit inside a common, distinct and limited definition? Anacapa 06:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Big scandal and cover-up described in recent Guardian news article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1745489,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.70.32.136 ( talk • contribs)
The section about torture in ficiton gives away the premise for the film Hostel. A spoiler warning should be added.
"U.S. compliance with the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment will be the topic of May 5 and 8 U.N. hearings in Geneva." [8] -- noosphere 19:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
"A human rights project, The Detainee Abuse and Accountability Project (DAA), released a report in Washington saying that allegations of detainee abuse, torture and killings have now implicated at least 600 U.S. military and civilian personnel deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the prison for terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." [9] -- noosph e re 22:30, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Is is this too contentious? Skinnyweed 16:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In the section "Other meanings of the word" there was a link to "Genitorture" which I have removed since Genitorture is a redirect straight back to here. There are a few other pages that link to Genitorture, which I have left alone. However, it seems there is some need to include at least a definition, expandible by anyone who feels so inclined, under the Genitorture heading, because this article scarcely touches upon the subject.-- King Hildebrand 10:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I noticed the first line contains "as a means of intimidation, deterrence, revenge, punishment, or information gathering." Torture is torture, no matter what the reason for the intentional infliction is. If torture is inflicted because to provide the inflictor a sense of control, it is nonetheless torture. If a nutcase tortures someone because he believes it will "drive Satan out," it is nonetheless torture. If torture is inflicted for no reason at all, it is still torture. Why reduce the meaning of torture to an arbitrary list of "reasons for its infliction?"-- JohnCPope 16:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
There has been so much talk on it saying it is a fake. One user has posted that one book, The Medieval Underworld, shows woodcuts of it in use. This I feel can be used as proof that it did exist. There are no pictures to confirm this. I would like someone to show this proof on the article.
I'm starting to think the same, Lao. 65.255.130.104 00:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)VonV
Mobbing is a form of psychological torture or terror which takes place in the workplace. You can find more information at http://mobbing.ca. The "Health Issues" page on mobbing.ca ( http://members.shaw.ca/mobbing/mobbingCA/health-1.htm) describes the many mental, emotional and physical effects of psychological torture experienced by mobbing targets in the workplace.
For your convenience here is the link you can add to "External links" in the "Psychological Torture" subsection:
Radyx 22:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
"Unlawful combatants"
The term "unlawful combatants" appears nowhere in the Geneva Conventions and, furthermore, is not even a term in broader international law as a whole. The term was invented by the current Bush Administration for the purposes of circumventing the Conventions while maintaining an appearance of legality and due process. Although international law is not legislated like national law, it also cannot simply be invented at the whim of individual countries and much less by single administrations: quite the contrary, international law is whatever is considered, by consensus, to be the norm. Thus, the claim made by this article that,
is entirely false. There is no implication in legal discourse of such a third category. One is either a combatant or not. If the former, they are entitled to prisoner-of-war status. If the latter, there is no legal basis for their detention by military forces and it is therefore unlawful detention. Further references to the term in this article as though it were an actual legal term in international law are therefore either the result of an incorrect or misinformed understanding, or, worse, an attempt to justify someone else's political agenda. I will assume that they are the result of the former. I will also remove such references from this article.
"Competent Tribunal"
There are further problems with the representation of international law in this article. For example, how do we determine who is, and who is not, a combatant? By means of a competent tribunal. On this point the article also states,
This is as false as the nonsense about "unlawful combatants". If the tribunal is not impartial (i.e. "neutral"), then it is not, and cannot be called, a competent tribunal.
More serious problems?
I will immediately fix the problem of references to "unlawful combatants," but it seems to me there is probably a much larger issue with this article's references to, and understanding of, international law. I'll review as much of this as I can over the next few days. --
Todeswalzer |
Talk
02:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
No the term unlawful combatant was not invented by the Bush administraton. It was first used in US Domestic law in
ex parte Quirin (1942).
See also: The legal situation of unlawful/unprivileged combatants (IRRC March 2003 Vol.85 No 849) Whereas the terms "combatant" "prisoner of war" and "civilian" are generally used and defined in the treaties of international humanitarian law, the terms "unlawful combatant", "unprivileged combatants/belligerents" do not appear in them. They have, however, been frequently used at least since the beginning of the last century in legal literature, military manuals and case law. The connotations given to these terms and their consequences for the applicable protection regime are not always very clear.
See also: Under Article 47 of Protocol I ( Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts) it is stated in the first sentence "A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war." So what is a mercenary if not an unlawful combatant? -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
A mercenaries are criminals, because they are defined as such in Protocol I Article 47, but they are a specific type of criminal who may not have broken any civil law, but if they "in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities", they are a mercenary. So a state can hold them for being in breach of Protocol I, but they may not have breached a civil law, and they "shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war". In which case what are they if not unlawful combatants?
What are child soldiers if not unlawful combatant? The are not necessarily criminals, but if they take part in hostilites the state is in breach of Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 38, ergo they are unlawful combatants, although persumably it is the person who had conscripted them into a position where they take part in hostilites who is the criminal. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Another for the pot: In the Hostages Trial (1947) if was found that ""We are obliged to hold that such guerrillas were francs tireurs who, upon capture, could be subjected to the death penalty. Consequently, no criminal responsibility attaches to the defendant List because of the execution of captured partisans..." -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I took the liberty of removing Elton John, unless it isn't just a singer. Isaiah A. 06:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Would it make more sense for the torture article to have the subjects "Psychological torture methods", "Physical torture methods", "Torture devices", and "Methods of execution and capital punishment" be links leading to new pages of the same names rather than large incomplete lists included in the main page? Also by moving the listed items into new pages they could be identified by tags obviously stating that they are not complete lists of various torture devices/techniques. -- 71.208.33.220 03:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I meant to add the form of torturous execution carried about by pouring a molten metal down a persons throat. However, I vaguely recall a specific term, so I thought I'd mention the method and see if anyone else remembered. 69.119.65.231 10:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.119.65.231 ( talk) 10:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC).
Apparently the word 'niggers' has slipped into the mix, completely out of context, and my inability to understand enough about how Wikipedia works doesn't let me find out how or where it was inserted to be able to edit it out.
The following text has been observed in the 'controlling populace' section:
Although information gathered by torture is niggers often worthless, torture has been used to terrorize and subdue populations to enforce state control. cf: Gulag
Highlight mine. So would someone who knows better how to fix... uh... fix?
204.116.154.118 23:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
this phrase appears at the bottom of the forth paragraph. In addition to using incorrect punctuation, the phrase makes, with the, "of course" clause, the assumption that the reader has some definitive knowledge that Israel uses torture before reading the article. this phrase is therefore unencyclopedic in tone. I am cleaning up the sentence, and placing Israel at the same level of expectation for torture usage as the other two nations mentioned. I am also removing the "perhaps more surprisingly" phrase, which lends itself subject to individual perspective. -- Amanaplanacanalpanama 08:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
That information will continue to be rv'ed as POV and uncited, unless something is done to change its phrasing and its citation. The current citation goes to an interview that does not even MENTION the United States and Great Britain in connection with Amnesty International, and furthermore nowhere says explicitly what the cited statement says, i.e. "Israel does not abide by the spirit of its treaties." As such it is speculative and OR.
I have added a disputed tag to psychological torture and physical torture methods, as not all methods are universally or even by a plurality of the population to be torture. I have added a dispute and OR tag to the execution/capital punishment section, as it has effectively declared all methods of capital punishment to be torture, along with some general crimes against humanity thrown in that do not constitute torture. Doing so invalidates the very real problem of torture, by misdirecting attention and confusing topics of concern. - MSTCrow 17:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
A large part of this article seems to have been deleted by this IP address 86.130.208.0 (see Revision as of 23:24, 10 November 2006 -- Revision as of 19:52, 13 November 2006) with no explanation in the history as to why it was deleted and that IP address only ever made those two edits (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/86.130.208.0) Therefore I think this was a case of vandalism and I am restoring those parts which have not already been restored. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I've also read that in medieval times torture was a fairly common way to earn a living: bandits would drive around and string up villagers by both feet, then smash one leg with a hammer and 'ransom' them for the other leg. Is it worth going into more detail about different torture-purposes in the middle ages? christians weren't the only people to hurt people. Brentstrahan 13:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article is against torture, which in some ways is understandable but I would certainly love to see some arguements in favor of it included to make this article more complete. KenBest 18:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
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