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What are some first hand sources about Tomislav? Nothing in D.A.I and nothing in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja as some claim? Can i just ask what evidence there are that what is written in this article is actually historic FACT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.15.7 ( talk) 19:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Tomislav was explicitly mentioned in "Chronicles of the priest of Duklja". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.58.65 ( talk) 18:20, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
He was in fact not mentioned in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja. Can i have the quote and pagenumber to where? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.114.62.229 (
talk) 14:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
"U Ijetopisu Popa Dukljanina postoji priča da je za vladavine Tomislava kralj Ugra imenom Atila pokrenuo vojsku da ga svlada. Ali je kralj Tomislav, hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, vodio s njime mnogo ratova i uvijek ga je natjerao u bijeg. I rodi Tomislav sinove i kćeri, i trinaeste godine svoga kraljevanja umre. lako se gotovo sigurno vijest odnosi na našeg Tomislava, teško se u nju pouzdati, jer se očigledno u neodredivom omjeru u njoj isprepleće povijesna realnost i elementi legende (kao, uostalom, u čitavom tekstu LJPD). Atila je drugo ime za ugarskog vođu i rodonačelnika dinastije Arpadovića - Arpada. Trinaesta godina kraljevanja je najvjerojatnije samo stajaći broj, a ne točan podatak. Ni sintagmu hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, a pogotovu kada ona prethodi informaciji o uspješno vođenim ratovima, ne treba uzimati suviše ozbiljno. Napokon, tek bi vijest o ratovima u vrijeme Tomislava mogla biti vjerodostojna - mađarski upadi u Hrvatsku mogli su biti najintenzivniji upravo u prvim desetljećima 10. stoljeća, kada je i mađarska opasnost po Evropu bila najveća. No, postoje i podaci koji na ovu pobjedu bacaju i drugačije svjetlo. Mletački kroničar Dandolo spominje mađarske pljačke u vrijeme dužda Ursa II. Badoera (912-932) u Moravskoj i Češkoj, a zatim i njihova pustošenja Hrvatske i Štajerske. S iznimno velikim plijenom vratili su se u Panoniju, zaključuje Dandolo. I već spomenuti anonimni notar kralja Bele III. tvrdi da su oko 900. godine Mađari podložili Rašku ... krenuvši odavle dođoše do mora, te podvrgoše sve (narode) ove domovine gospodstvu Arpada ... zauzevši još grad Split predobiše cijelu Hrvatsku. Očigledno se radi o pretjerivanju, a moguće je da je kroničar madarske uspjehe 12. stoljeća prebacio u početak 10. stoljeća. Međutim, ipak u tim navodima mora biti zrnce istine - najintenzivnije mađarske pljačke padaju upravo u početak 10. stoljeća. Čini se da su Mađari uistinu pokušavali i uspijevali prijeći Dinaride, jer Hrvatska je za Dandola bila, barem u to vrijeme, zemlja u neposrednom zaleđu obale. Ni podatak da su Mađari došli do Splita i pljačkali u njegovoj blizini nije moguće baš posve odbaciti, iako ga sigurno nisu osvojili. Dakle, Tomislavove su se čete vjerojatno od vremena od vremena sukobljavale s mađarskim pljačkašima - neki bi ih put uspjeli poraziti ili potjerati, drugi put ne bi. Stoga ne valja prenaglašavati značenje vijesti o njegovim pobjedama, a ni podcjenjivati one o uspjesima mađarskih pljački: jednostavno, moglo se raditi o višekratnim pokušajima Mađara da nešto opljačkaju. Razlog eventualnog uspjeha ili neuspjeha ovisio je vjerojatno o broju hrvatskih vojnika koji bi ih dočekali, kao i opterećenosti Mađara plijenom, što bi im otežavalo borbu, te o postignutom iznenađenju (zasjeda, itd.)." Tzowu ( talk) 19:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: it is fairly clear that Budak did not address the border issues at least partially because the two share views on the Drava-Sava area being a wider border area outside anyone's firm rule. This is why I feel that the fact he criticized Goldstein's book is irrelevant in this context. Budak's view on Bosnia remains open; I'll take a closer look at his book. GregorB ( talk) 12:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
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Surtsicna, so all articles like Levedi Zoltán of Hungary Stefan Uroš V William II of England would violate the portrait rules of Wikipedia? However so long as the portrait was from the time they were alive then it should be valid? At least that is my interpretation to the link you gave to the wiki rules. Would statues be alright or only ones again created during their era? I never knew of these regulation so forgive my ignorance on it. I’m trying to understand. I thought so long as the image is not self made but sourced and cited, that it would be valid. Cheers. OyMosby ( talk) 22:36, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
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What are some first hand sources about Tomislav? Nothing in D.A.I and nothing in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja as some claim? Can i just ask what evidence there are that what is written in this article is actually historic FACT? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.15.7 ( talk) 19:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Tomislav was explicitly mentioned in "Chronicles of the priest of Duklja". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.58.65 ( talk) 18:20, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
He was in fact not mentioned in Chronicles of the priest of Duklja. Can i have the quote and pagenumber to where? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
213.114.62.229 (
talk) 14:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
"U Ijetopisu Popa Dukljanina postoji priča da je za vladavine Tomislava kralj Ugra imenom Atila pokrenuo vojsku da ga svlada. Ali je kralj Tomislav, hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, vodio s njime mnogo ratova i uvijek ga je natjerao u bijeg. I rodi Tomislav sinove i kćeri, i trinaeste godine svoga kraljevanja umre. lako se gotovo sigurno vijest odnosi na našeg Tomislava, teško se u nju pouzdati, jer se očigledno u neodredivom omjeru u njoj isprepleće povijesna realnost i elementi legende (kao, uostalom, u čitavom tekstu LJPD). Atila je drugo ime za ugarskog vođu i rodonačelnika dinastije Arpadovića - Arpada. Trinaesta godina kraljevanja je najvjerojatnije samo stajaći broj, a ne točan podatak. Ni sintagmu hrabar mladić i snažan ratnik, a pogotovu kada ona prethodi informaciji o uspješno vođenim ratovima, ne treba uzimati suviše ozbiljno. Napokon, tek bi vijest o ratovima u vrijeme Tomislava mogla biti vjerodostojna - mađarski upadi u Hrvatsku mogli su biti najintenzivniji upravo u prvim desetljećima 10. stoljeća, kada je i mađarska opasnost po Evropu bila najveća. No, postoje i podaci koji na ovu pobjedu bacaju i drugačije svjetlo. Mletački kroničar Dandolo spominje mađarske pljačke u vrijeme dužda Ursa II. Badoera (912-932) u Moravskoj i Češkoj, a zatim i njihova pustošenja Hrvatske i Štajerske. S iznimno velikim plijenom vratili su se u Panoniju, zaključuje Dandolo. I već spomenuti anonimni notar kralja Bele III. tvrdi da su oko 900. godine Mađari podložili Rašku ... krenuvši odavle dođoše do mora, te podvrgoše sve (narode) ove domovine gospodstvu Arpada ... zauzevši još grad Split predobiše cijelu Hrvatsku. Očigledno se radi o pretjerivanju, a moguće je da je kroničar madarske uspjehe 12. stoljeća prebacio u početak 10. stoljeća. Međutim, ipak u tim navodima mora biti zrnce istine - najintenzivnije mađarske pljačke padaju upravo u početak 10. stoljeća. Čini se da su Mađari uistinu pokušavali i uspijevali prijeći Dinaride, jer Hrvatska je za Dandola bila, barem u to vrijeme, zemlja u neposrednom zaleđu obale. Ni podatak da su Mađari došli do Splita i pljačkali u njegovoj blizini nije moguće baš posve odbaciti, iako ga sigurno nisu osvojili. Dakle, Tomislavove su se čete vjerojatno od vremena od vremena sukobljavale s mađarskim pljačkašima - neki bi ih put uspjeli poraziti ili potjerati, drugi put ne bi. Stoga ne valja prenaglašavati značenje vijesti o njegovim pobjedama, a ni podcjenjivati one o uspjesima mađarskih pljački: jednostavno, moglo se raditi o višekratnim pokušajima Mađara da nešto opljačkaju. Razlog eventualnog uspjeha ili neuspjeha ovisio je vjerojatno o broju hrvatskih vojnika koji bi ih dočekali, kao i opterećenosti Mađara plijenom, što bi im otežavalo borbu, te o postignutom iznenađenju (zasjeda, itd.)." Tzowu ( talk) 19:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: it is fairly clear that Budak did not address the border issues at least partially because the two share views on the Drava-Sava area being a wider border area outside anyone's firm rule. This is why I feel that the fact he criticized Goldstein's book is irrelevant in this context. Budak's view on Bosnia remains open; I'll take a closer look at his book. GregorB ( talk) 12:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
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Surtsicna, so all articles like Levedi Zoltán of Hungary Stefan Uroš V William II of England would violate the portrait rules of Wikipedia? However so long as the portrait was from the time they were alive then it should be valid? At least that is my interpretation to the link you gave to the wiki rules. Would statues be alright or only ones again created during their era? I never knew of these regulation so forgive my ignorance on it. I’m trying to understand. I thought so long as the image is not self made but sourced and cited, that it would be valid. Cheers. OyMosby ( talk) 22:36, 6 April 2022 (UTC)