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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Myosoto.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello. In my quest to improve the articles for improvement in the Community portal, I could'nt help but notice that this article lacks a picture. Surely, a photograph of an adult woman dressed in what everyone could agree on is tomboyish attire would certainly help a visitor to this page educate them on what a tomboy would actually look like. I've taken a trip to the commons, but there doesn't seem to be any quality, usable pictures. If somebody might upload a few pictures, we can discuss its possible addition to the article. I'd do it myself, but, alas, I'm too new to know how to do that technical stuff. Thank you in advance, RememberThisAccountName ( talk) 20:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I do not believe that simply showing a picture is going to identify what a "Tomboy is". I am 54 years old and have recently been called a Tomboy by my family. I felt very insulted. I was raised in an enviroment where dresses are inappropriate for the climate and hunting and fishing,camping, athleticism were a way of life. I feel very femiate and I am very much monogimist. The traditional "Tomboy" title is very much out of date for todays standards from 1592. Women/ladies today are encouraged to be stronger, smarter, leaders, and athletes with respect to being Ladies! Dresses have no meaning here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.109.220 ( talk) 19:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Cramyourspam added the following inline comment:
I beg to disagree with the colleague. There are multiple reasons why a woman may look or behave like a man. Not all of them are described as tomboy. You yourself removed personal impersonators, right? Therefore it is not "res ipsa", it is an opinion of a wikipedian, which does not count in articles, as you surely know.
Therefore please provide references that gallery items are in fact tomboys.
For example I have never thought that Rosie the Riveter is a tomboy. In fact the article says something rather opposite: she is an icon of feminism. Staszek Lem ( talk) 00:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Update: Noting here that the Gallery section was removed by Some guy; I've already expressed in this edit and in the #Muddled & incoherent section below that I didn't agree with the galley addition, so I'm not going to oppose the removal. Flyer22 ( talk) 20:04, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Why does tomgirl redirect here, instead of having its own page? I understand that tomgirl is used in place of tomboy occasionally, but usually (at least where I'm from) a "tomgirl" is boy that acts like a girl.-- 50.137.247.29 ( talk) 15:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that we can't have pictures of tomboy little girls. It's perfectly possible to decide your identity when young ... take Tara Huff. "the last time anyone remembers her wearing a dress... she was 3". Huff also managed to stop her mother making her wear a dress on the first day of kindergarten Paul Austin ( talk) 07:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I came to this page by accident, but find it muddled and incoherent ... Since by definition a tomboy is a female child, why 8 photographs of adults, who may or may not have once been tomboys many years earlier? I've never heard of anyone in my life making an association between lesbianity and tomboy-ishness, nor am I able to think of any examples in literature or film. I do not doubt that the writers cited may claim that such associations exist, and so long as it is clear that these are the opinions of these writers (which at times it is not), then yes they do have a valid place in this article, though even so, there does seem to be an emphasis on the negative. Pincrete ( talk) 15:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Flyer22, either a) this page has improved greatly - possibly by losing the gallery OR 2) I was being unfairly grumpy and reactionary back in February! This is just a 'flying visit', but two things which I remember noting in Feb. were 1) the Online Et Dictionary (cited on the page) says "1550s, "rude, boisterous boy," from Tom + boy; meaning "wild, romping girl, girl who acts like a spirited boy" is first recorded 1590s. It also could mean "strumpet, bold or immodest woman" (1570s). Compare tomrig "rude, wild girl." Related: Tomboyish." ie the word first meant a wild boy, later a 'loose' woman, then bizzarely acquired its approx. modern meaning (wild, 'boyish' girl) 2) possibly connected the, other OED (Ox Eng Dict) is referred to in the intro, but referred to '2nd hand', ie someone's interpretation of what the OxED says ... I don't currently have access to an OxED, but did mean to check out what IT said. I mention these only because the bizarre history (and who knows how many other turns & twists in usage), might ITSELF be interesting. Pincrete ( talk) 16:39, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
c'est un super copain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.199.76.222 ( talk) 11:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I tried to make a Russian version of Tomboy - but I'm not good at Wiki at all... Please, help me! I also don't know how to write Roland or smb elese. Thank you. Pałanieja ( talk) 00:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)Palanieja
Hello fellow Wikipedians! I added the banner above because I have chosen to work on this page as a class assignment. I have done a good amount of research on the topic of tomboys, and I feel that including the research here on this page will greatly improve it. For example, I want to expand on the evolution of tomboyism, its depiction in literature, and its current reception. I will cite scholars such as Michelle Ann Abate (a professor whose research on tomboys has really reinvigorated academic research and discussion), and I plan on expanding the existing section about Judith Halberstam (because she does have a more inept discussion of tomboyism in her book Female Masculinity). I am welcome to any ideas/feedback, so I'll keep checking this talk page in case you reply :) Beachmirage ( talk) 15:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I think this page and talk discussion should take on more of an academic standpoint and less on the fact whether or not a representational picture be posted because of the lack of universality. "Tomboyism refers to the extended childhood period of female masculinity". [1] There is a societal difference between how we view the masculinity of young boys versus the masculinity of young girls.The female gender is more flexible and tolerated at a young age in comparison to the male gender. When a young girl is seen as exhibiting "tomboyish" behavior it is commonly excused as the girl wanting to experience the freedom and mobility and independence that young boys usually feel feel during childhood. It is typically more acceptable for a young girls to dress more gender nonconforming, or in commonly known boy attire and play outside, than for a young boy to dress in traditional girl attire and wanting to play with dolls. Being a tomboy is seen more a phase from society, while the gender fluidity in a boy is deemed as alerting factors of sexuality. Because "Tombyism" is thought of as as phase, once that phase has surpassed an acceptable age, that is when society is no longer as accepting as the nonconforming gesture.
References
Lacks enough content to warrant individual article and lacks citations. Classicwiki ( talk) (ping me please, I don't watch pages) 22:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
As seen here and here, I twice reverted DrVentureWasRight on the removal of material. The first time, DrVentureWasRight claimed that the source does not cite the dictionary. Once I challenged DrVentureWasRight on this, DrVentureWasRight then stated that the dictionary source needs to be used to cite something the dictionary stated. As I explained, that is not how WP:Verifiability works.
That stated, I don't think that the sentence in question should be in the lead. Per WP:Lead, the lead is meant to summarize the article. So this sentence should be moved lower. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 03:11, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Classicalfan626, it's interesting that you came out of nowhere and removed the OED material. But, as you can see, I reverted you and moved the material lower because you have given no valid reason for the removal. The OED is a WP:Reliable source and its commentary clearly belongs in this article. Unless you can show why it does not belong, your "disputed" commentary, which is seemingly based on the DrVentureWasRight account having similarly removed the material without a valid rationale, is irrelevant. And as for your category removals, seen here and here, if WP:Reliable sources in the article support any of the categories, such as "pejorative," they can remain. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Pinging SummerPhDv2.0, Grayfell, David Edgar and Equivamp, who also watch the article, for their opinions on all of this. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:40, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
As seen with this, I reverted SHINETODAY and Doingender. When it comes to the first part, the Adrienne Rich piece is not needed. No more needs to be stated about lesbian identity in this article. When it comes to the study text, some of it was essay-like (see WP:NOT#ESSAY) and it was too detailed. Needs to be tweaked and trimmed. SHINETODAY and Doingender, I don't know if you two are WP:Student editors, but I ask that you discuss this content here on the talk page instead of immediately reinserting it. See WP:Bold, revert, discuss cycle and WP:Edit warring. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't look like SHINETODAY and Doingender have been pinged yet. This note is to make sure they are aware the conversation is here. - SummerPhD v2.0 02:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
CrossPlains, I reverted you because the comic book illustrations are WP:Undue weight. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 07:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
There should be a photo of a real life tomboy. Benjamin ( talk) 20:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
"Author Michelle Ann Abate stated that, in nineteenth-century American culture, the usage of the word tomboy came to refer to a specific code of conduct that permitted young girls to exercise, wear "sensible clothing", and to eat a "wholesome diet". Because of the emphasis on a healthier lifestyle, tomboyism quickly grew in popularity during this time period as an alternative to the dominant feminine code of conduct that had limited women's physical movement. Abate stated that this mode of behavior was planned to enhance the power and durability of the country's coming brides and child-bearers and the progeny that they birthed. She said that tomboyism was more than a new fostering method or gender statement for the country's young women; it was also a way to improve the genetic quality of the human population and at least a way to assert white racial supremacy.[4][5]"
This section should be removed as it has no relevance or value in a wikipedia article, it is simon-pure polemic without any grounding in fact or context based on the sole opinion of a fringe author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:189:8200:CFF0:5975:297E:3CC3:CA56 ( talk) 02:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like an essay. Again, in many places, there is a distinct lack of any sources. Springnuts ( talk) 17:39, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Greenoyster333 (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Greenoyster333 ( talk) 18:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi all! I researched about the history of tomboyism. The previous history chunk was dumping whole bunch of names + tomboy representation in media, which is not very informative.
My source is mainly from this academic book, "Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History" by Michelle Ann Abate. Here's a link to her book on Google Scholar: https://books.google.com/books?id=pYdrZNd7B1sC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=began%20to%20change&f=false. I haven't finished looking up the history on first + second wave feminism and thus left it blank there. If you guys have time please feel free to check the history of tomboyism in the mid 19thcentury + early 20th century and civil war or add sources if relevant.
Please let me know your comments!
Greenoyster333 ( talk) 04:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Hello all!
I am back (again). This time I did an in-depth research on the history of tomboy in the US. I have added all the sources in the bibliography but I mainly used these newsletters/ papers:
Davis, Lisa Selin (2020-08-17). "Are you a woman who votes? Thank a tomboy". CNN. Retrieved 2022-11-30
Abate, Michelle Ann (2008). Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History. Temple University Press. ISBN 978-1-59213-722-0
Cassandra N Berman, American Tomboys, 1850–1915. Childhoods: Interdisciplinary Perspectives on Children and Youth. By Renée M. Sentilles, Western Historical Quarterly, Volume 50, Issue 3, Autumn 2019, Pages 317–318, https://doi.org/10.1093/whq/whz049.
Please feel free to check/ proofread the section about history! I have crossed referenced and lots of journals (e.g. both Abate's academic paper and BBC's news article) talks about the connection between white supremacy and start of American tomboys. Please talk with me if you find this inappropriate on this page and we can discuss in detail.
I also found this academic paper: Elise, Dianne. (1999). "Tomboys and cowgirls: The girl's disidentification from the mother". Published in Sissies and Tomboys: Gender Nonconformity and Homosexual Childhood. Ed. M. Rotten. New York Univ. Press.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232502028_Tomboys_and_cowgirls_The_girl%27s_disidentification_from_the_mother. Accessed on Nov 29, 2022
This paper has an interesting discussion on the relationship between tomboys, child development, and psychology. I think we should add a section that talks about tomboy & child development as some parents might be reading this article and curious to know why their child is behaving a certain way. Greenoyster333 ( talk) 06:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Greenoyster333 hello, again I'd like to say I like your edits. However the tone is way too casual, very essay like and imo needs more paraphrasing. And something need citations That said you seem passionate so keep up the good work . 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 01:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
I'll keep this short and sweet, especially since I'm a new contributer to wikipedia who, of course might be wrong, but I really don't feel like the History section feels unbiased or explanatory at all. It feels less like a recounting of factual events that actually happened as much as it feels like someone's trying to tell a story, especially with flowery adjectives like "toxic" and "cumbersome". While I was unable to get my hands on Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History, which is my fault as maybe it'll have a smoking gun proving everything the section says and if it does feel free to ignore this complaint, the next source, Are you a woman who votes? Thank a tomboy seems to be the source that the sections draw from more heavily, and although the article is written by an authority on the topic (although not a monolithic one), the use of the article rather than either of her books themselves don't do any favours to the storytelling-ness. Pre-19th century, and the next article, also make a lot of objective statements that I feel it doesn't have a right to make, like that the origin WAS deeply embedded in racism. I feel like the repeated uses of "healthy, fertile bodies" are the most obvious display of this subjectivity and narrative-crafting, having the express purpose of trying to stoke emotion in the reader than actually provide any facts. The section as a whole reads far more like a storybook than several other articles I've read that actually have the "This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry." tag.
The section's Americentrism doesn't even have to be stated. Are you telling me that throughout the entire history of the world from antiquity to the 20th century, safe for a single Egyptian pharoh, that the only place there was this kind of behavior was America? Are you telling me they simply didn't exist before the 21st century? Since of course you aren't telling me that (at least, hopefully you're not), I'd have to recommend the section is heavily rewritten, more dryly and definitely with different, or at least a larger variety of, sources. PorterRomanov ( talk) 01:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Good day everyone. I am making a topic with the intention of having the first pic of the tomboy girl in the article changed, since it is from a friend who'd rather not have it uploaded due to privacy concerns. Since the article is protected i was suggested to dm the page but I'm not sure if this is how it is done. Thank you very much. Lobomex ( talk) 22:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
(I could have brought this up at any time, but someone made an edit to this article with the edit summary saying "not a tomboy" that caught my attention so easily that made me feel like I needed to bring this up.)
What girl do you know who is not a tomboy?? Taken literally, assuming this description is absolute, I'm sure every girl in post-1950 society is a tomboy to some extent. There is only ONE girl I know who absolutely isn't a tomboy. She is the protagonist of a 1937 animated movie; in the movie her evil stepmother (who wants to be the most beautiful woman) hates her beauty. Can you guess who she is?? (Please note that the purpose of this section is to see if anyone can correct the meaning of "not a tomboy" (note that this phrase is absolute; in contrast with a phrase such as "hardly a tomboy".) Georgia guy ( talk) 19:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Tl;dr: the quoted paragraph of tomboy in China is lack of nuance and incorrect, and have narrative that is not backed up by the reference.
Quote from the wiki page "In China, tomboys are called "假小子" (jiá xiao zi), which literally translates as "pseudo-boy". This term is largely used as a derogatory term to describe those girls with masculine characteristics. Most of the times calling someone a "假小子" is a humiliation which implies that the individual could not find a boyfriend. This largely reduces the value of women to only romance and diminishes girls' confidence in working in what is traditionally defined as the "boy's realm.""
Reference 27 is an article about teaching English instead of talking about tomboys in China, which might not be the most suitable reference to reflect how the Chinese see tomboys. However, the paragraph I quoted from the wiki page is quite a "lack of nuance".
"This term is largely used as a derogatory term to describe those girls with masculine characteristics. "
Femboy is called "偽娘" (pseudo-girl) and originated from Japan ACG terminology; it is the counterpart term to "假小子". Both terms are relatively neutral and describe that their appearance doesn't match the gender stereotype and leans closer to the traditional opposite gender. Some terms in an older era, like 男人婆(Literal translation: man-woman, closer to "butch" without the relation with sexual orientation) or another modern slang 女漢子(Literal translation: female-tough guy/female-chad, 漢子is mostly referred to the ideal traditional masculine image of men) might be more aligned to the description of girls with masculine characteristics.
"Most of the times calling someone a "假小子" is a humiliation which implies that the individual could not find a boyfriend."
The nature of femboy and tomboy are not as acceptable as in some other countries. They might face discrimination or be seen as less attractive, but that is reverse causality.
"This largely reduces the value of women to only romance and diminishes girls' confidence in working in what is traditionally defined as the "boy's realm.""
The nature of "假小子" is less likely related to the "boy's realm" working environment. I don't know where this conclusion comes from; it is unrelated to reference 27.
Thank you. Airynod ( talk) 13:20, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 8 November 2022. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2015. Further details were available on the "Education Program:University of South Florida/LAE 6389: Practice Teaching Literature (Spring 2015)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
![]() | This article was selected as the article for improvement for a period of one week. |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Myosoto.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 11:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello. In my quest to improve the articles for improvement in the Community portal, I could'nt help but notice that this article lacks a picture. Surely, a photograph of an adult woman dressed in what everyone could agree on is tomboyish attire would certainly help a visitor to this page educate them on what a tomboy would actually look like. I've taken a trip to the commons, but there doesn't seem to be any quality, usable pictures. If somebody might upload a few pictures, we can discuss its possible addition to the article. I'd do it myself, but, alas, I'm too new to know how to do that technical stuff. Thank you in advance, RememberThisAccountName ( talk) 20:32, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
I do not believe that simply showing a picture is going to identify what a "Tomboy is". I am 54 years old and have recently been called a Tomboy by my family. I felt very insulted. I was raised in an enviroment where dresses are inappropriate for the climate and hunting and fishing,camping, athleticism were a way of life. I feel very femiate and I am very much monogimist. The traditional "Tomboy" title is very much out of date for todays standards from 1592. Women/ladies today are encouraged to be stronger, smarter, leaders, and athletes with respect to being Ladies! Dresses have no meaning here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.109.220 ( talk) 19:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Cramyourspam added the following inline comment:
I beg to disagree with the colleague. There are multiple reasons why a woman may look or behave like a man. Not all of them are described as tomboy. You yourself removed personal impersonators, right? Therefore it is not "res ipsa", it is an opinion of a wikipedian, which does not count in articles, as you surely know.
Therefore please provide references that gallery items are in fact tomboys.
For example I have never thought that Rosie the Riveter is a tomboy. In fact the article says something rather opposite: she is an icon of feminism. Staszek Lem ( talk) 00:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Update: Noting here that the Gallery section was removed by Some guy; I've already expressed in this edit and in the #Muddled & incoherent section below that I didn't agree with the galley addition, so I'm not going to oppose the removal. Flyer22 ( talk) 20:04, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Why does tomgirl redirect here, instead of having its own page? I understand that tomgirl is used in place of tomboy occasionally, but usually (at least where I'm from) a "tomgirl" is boy that acts like a girl.-- 50.137.247.29 ( talk) 15:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
It's ridiculous that we can't have pictures of tomboy little girls. It's perfectly possible to decide your identity when young ... take Tara Huff. "the last time anyone remembers her wearing a dress... she was 3". Huff also managed to stop her mother making her wear a dress on the first day of kindergarten Paul Austin ( talk) 07:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I came to this page by accident, but find it muddled and incoherent ... Since by definition a tomboy is a female child, why 8 photographs of adults, who may or may not have once been tomboys many years earlier? I've never heard of anyone in my life making an association between lesbianity and tomboy-ishness, nor am I able to think of any examples in literature or film. I do not doubt that the writers cited may claim that such associations exist, and so long as it is clear that these are the opinions of these writers (which at times it is not), then yes they do have a valid place in this article, though even so, there does seem to be an emphasis on the negative. Pincrete ( talk) 15:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Flyer22, either a) this page has improved greatly - possibly by losing the gallery OR 2) I was being unfairly grumpy and reactionary back in February! This is just a 'flying visit', but two things which I remember noting in Feb. were 1) the Online Et Dictionary (cited on the page) says "1550s, "rude, boisterous boy," from Tom + boy; meaning "wild, romping girl, girl who acts like a spirited boy" is first recorded 1590s. It also could mean "strumpet, bold or immodest woman" (1570s). Compare tomrig "rude, wild girl." Related: Tomboyish." ie the word first meant a wild boy, later a 'loose' woman, then bizzarely acquired its approx. modern meaning (wild, 'boyish' girl) 2) possibly connected the, other OED (Ox Eng Dict) is referred to in the intro, but referred to '2nd hand', ie someone's interpretation of what the OxED says ... I don't currently have access to an OxED, but did mean to check out what IT said. I mention these only because the bizarre history (and who knows how many other turns & twists in usage), might ITSELF be interesting. Pincrete ( talk) 16:39, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
c'est un super copain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.199.76.222 ( talk) 11:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I tried to make a Russian version of Tomboy - but I'm not good at Wiki at all... Please, help me! I also don't know how to write Roland or smb elese. Thank you. Pałanieja ( talk) 00:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)Palanieja
Hello fellow Wikipedians! I added the banner above because I have chosen to work on this page as a class assignment. I have done a good amount of research on the topic of tomboys, and I feel that including the research here on this page will greatly improve it. For example, I want to expand on the evolution of tomboyism, its depiction in literature, and its current reception. I will cite scholars such as Michelle Ann Abate (a professor whose research on tomboys has really reinvigorated academic research and discussion), and I plan on expanding the existing section about Judith Halberstam (because she does have a more inept discussion of tomboyism in her book Female Masculinity). I am welcome to any ideas/feedback, so I'll keep checking this talk page in case you reply :) Beachmirage ( talk) 15:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I think this page and talk discussion should take on more of an academic standpoint and less on the fact whether or not a representational picture be posted because of the lack of universality. "Tomboyism refers to the extended childhood period of female masculinity". [1] There is a societal difference between how we view the masculinity of young boys versus the masculinity of young girls.The female gender is more flexible and tolerated at a young age in comparison to the male gender. When a young girl is seen as exhibiting "tomboyish" behavior it is commonly excused as the girl wanting to experience the freedom and mobility and independence that young boys usually feel feel during childhood. It is typically more acceptable for a young girls to dress more gender nonconforming, or in commonly known boy attire and play outside, than for a young boy to dress in traditional girl attire and wanting to play with dolls. Being a tomboy is seen more a phase from society, while the gender fluidity in a boy is deemed as alerting factors of sexuality. Because "Tombyism" is thought of as as phase, once that phase has surpassed an acceptable age, that is when society is no longer as accepting as the nonconforming gesture.
References
Lacks enough content to warrant individual article and lacks citations. Classicwiki ( talk) (ping me please, I don't watch pages) 22:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
As seen here and here, I twice reverted DrVentureWasRight on the removal of material. The first time, DrVentureWasRight claimed that the source does not cite the dictionary. Once I challenged DrVentureWasRight on this, DrVentureWasRight then stated that the dictionary source needs to be used to cite something the dictionary stated. As I explained, that is not how WP:Verifiability works.
That stated, I don't think that the sentence in question should be in the lead. Per WP:Lead, the lead is meant to summarize the article. So this sentence should be moved lower. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 03:11, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Classicalfan626, it's interesting that you came out of nowhere and removed the OED material. But, as you can see, I reverted you and moved the material lower because you have given no valid reason for the removal. The OED is a WP:Reliable source and its commentary clearly belongs in this article. Unless you can show why it does not belong, your "disputed" commentary, which is seemingly based on the DrVentureWasRight account having similarly removed the material without a valid rationale, is irrelevant. And as for your category removals, seen here and here, if WP:Reliable sources in the article support any of the categories, such as "pejorative," they can remain. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Pinging SummerPhDv2.0, Grayfell, David Edgar and Equivamp, who also watch the article, for their opinions on all of this. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 17:40, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
As seen with this, I reverted SHINETODAY and Doingender. When it comes to the first part, the Adrienne Rich piece is not needed. No more needs to be stated about lesbian identity in this article. When it comes to the study text, some of it was essay-like (see WP:NOT#ESSAY) and it was too detailed. Needs to be tweaked and trimmed. SHINETODAY and Doingender, I don't know if you two are WP:Student editors, but I ask that you discuss this content here on the talk page instead of immediately reinserting it. See WP:Bold, revert, discuss cycle and WP:Edit warring. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 20:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't look like SHINETODAY and Doingender have been pinged yet. This note is to make sure they are aware the conversation is here. - SummerPhD v2.0 02:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
CrossPlains, I reverted you because the comic book illustrations are WP:Undue weight. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 07:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
There should be a photo of a real life tomboy. Benjamin ( talk) 20:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
"Author Michelle Ann Abate stated that, in nineteenth-century American culture, the usage of the word tomboy came to refer to a specific code of conduct that permitted young girls to exercise, wear "sensible clothing", and to eat a "wholesome diet". Because of the emphasis on a healthier lifestyle, tomboyism quickly grew in popularity during this time period as an alternative to the dominant feminine code of conduct that had limited women's physical movement. Abate stated that this mode of behavior was planned to enhance the power and durability of the country's coming brides and child-bearers and the progeny that they birthed. She said that tomboyism was more than a new fostering method or gender statement for the country's young women; it was also a way to improve the genetic quality of the human population and at least a way to assert white racial supremacy.[4][5]"
This section should be removed as it has no relevance or value in a wikipedia article, it is simon-pure polemic without any grounding in fact or context based on the sole opinion of a fringe author. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:189:8200:CFF0:5975:297E:3CC3:CA56 ( talk) 02:25, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Much of this article reads like an essay. Again, in many places, there is a distinct lack of any sources. Springnuts ( talk) 17:39, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 September 2022 and 10 December 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Greenoyster333 (
article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by Greenoyster333 ( talk) 18:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi all! I researched about the history of tomboyism. The previous history chunk was dumping whole bunch of names + tomboy representation in media, which is not very informative.
My source is mainly from this academic book, "Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History" by Michelle Ann Abate. Here's a link to her book on Google Scholar: https://books.google.com/books?id=pYdrZNd7B1sC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=began%20to%20change&f=false. I haven't finished looking up the history on first + second wave feminism and thus left it blank there. If you guys have time please feel free to check the history of tomboyism in the mid 19thcentury + early 20th century and civil war or add sources if relevant.
Please let me know your comments!
Greenoyster333 ( talk) 04:15, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Hello all!
I am back (again). This time I did an in-depth research on the history of tomboy in the US. I have added all the sources in the bibliography but I mainly used these newsletters/ papers:
Davis, Lisa Selin (2020-08-17). "Are you a woman who votes? Thank a tomboy". CNN. Retrieved 2022-11-30
Abate, Michelle Ann (2008). Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History. Temple University Press. ISBN 978-1-59213-722-0
Cassandra N Berman, American Tomboys, 1850–1915. Childhoods: Interdisciplinary Perspectives on Children and Youth. By Renée M. Sentilles, Western Historical Quarterly, Volume 50, Issue 3, Autumn 2019, Pages 317–318, https://doi.org/10.1093/whq/whz049.
Please feel free to check/ proofread the section about history! I have crossed referenced and lots of journals (e.g. both Abate's academic paper and BBC's news article) talks about the connection between white supremacy and start of American tomboys. Please talk with me if you find this inappropriate on this page and we can discuss in detail.
I also found this academic paper: Elise, Dianne. (1999). "Tomboys and cowgirls: The girl's disidentification from the mother". Published in Sissies and Tomboys: Gender Nonconformity and Homosexual Childhood. Ed. M. Rotten. New York Univ. Press.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232502028_Tomboys_and_cowgirls_The_girl%27s_disidentification_from_the_mother. Accessed on Nov 29, 2022
This paper has an interesting discussion on the relationship between tomboys, child development, and psychology. I think we should add a section that talks about tomboy & child development as some parents might be reading this article and curious to know why their child is behaving a certain way. Greenoyster333 ( talk) 06:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
@ Greenoyster333 hello, again I'd like to say I like your edits. However the tone is way too casual, very essay like and imo needs more paraphrasing. And something need citations That said you seem passionate so keep up the good work . 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 01:44, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
I'll keep this short and sweet, especially since I'm a new contributer to wikipedia who, of course might be wrong, but I really don't feel like the History section feels unbiased or explanatory at all. It feels less like a recounting of factual events that actually happened as much as it feels like someone's trying to tell a story, especially with flowery adjectives like "toxic" and "cumbersome". While I was unable to get my hands on Tomboys: A Literary and Cultural History, which is my fault as maybe it'll have a smoking gun proving everything the section says and if it does feel free to ignore this complaint, the next source, Are you a woman who votes? Thank a tomboy seems to be the source that the sections draw from more heavily, and although the article is written by an authority on the topic (although not a monolithic one), the use of the article rather than either of her books themselves don't do any favours to the storytelling-ness. Pre-19th century, and the next article, also make a lot of objective statements that I feel it doesn't have a right to make, like that the origin WAS deeply embedded in racism. I feel like the repeated uses of "healthy, fertile bodies" are the most obvious display of this subjectivity and narrative-crafting, having the express purpose of trying to stoke emotion in the reader than actually provide any facts. The section as a whole reads far more like a storybook than several other articles I've read that actually have the "This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry." tag.
The section's Americentrism doesn't even have to be stated. Are you telling me that throughout the entire history of the world from antiquity to the 20th century, safe for a single Egyptian pharoh, that the only place there was this kind of behavior was America? Are you telling me they simply didn't exist before the 21st century? Since of course you aren't telling me that (at least, hopefully you're not), I'd have to recommend the section is heavily rewritten, more dryly and definitely with different, or at least a larger variety of, sources. PorterRomanov ( talk) 01:39, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Good day everyone. I am making a topic with the intention of having the first pic of the tomboy girl in the article changed, since it is from a friend who'd rather not have it uploaded due to privacy concerns. Since the article is protected i was suggested to dm the page but I'm not sure if this is how it is done. Thank you very much. Lobomex ( talk) 22:57, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
(I could have brought this up at any time, but someone made an edit to this article with the edit summary saying "not a tomboy" that caught my attention so easily that made me feel like I needed to bring this up.)
What girl do you know who is not a tomboy?? Taken literally, assuming this description is absolute, I'm sure every girl in post-1950 society is a tomboy to some extent. There is only ONE girl I know who absolutely isn't a tomboy. She is the protagonist of a 1937 animated movie; in the movie her evil stepmother (who wants to be the most beautiful woman) hates her beauty. Can you guess who she is?? (Please note that the purpose of this section is to see if anyone can correct the meaning of "not a tomboy" (note that this phrase is absolute; in contrast with a phrase such as "hardly a tomboy".) Georgia guy ( talk) 19:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Tl;dr: the quoted paragraph of tomboy in China is lack of nuance and incorrect, and have narrative that is not backed up by the reference.
Quote from the wiki page "In China, tomboys are called "假小子" (jiá xiao zi), which literally translates as "pseudo-boy". This term is largely used as a derogatory term to describe those girls with masculine characteristics. Most of the times calling someone a "假小子" is a humiliation which implies that the individual could not find a boyfriend. This largely reduces the value of women to only romance and diminishes girls' confidence in working in what is traditionally defined as the "boy's realm.""
Reference 27 is an article about teaching English instead of talking about tomboys in China, which might not be the most suitable reference to reflect how the Chinese see tomboys. However, the paragraph I quoted from the wiki page is quite a "lack of nuance".
"This term is largely used as a derogatory term to describe those girls with masculine characteristics. "
Femboy is called "偽娘" (pseudo-girl) and originated from Japan ACG terminology; it is the counterpart term to "假小子". Both terms are relatively neutral and describe that their appearance doesn't match the gender stereotype and leans closer to the traditional opposite gender. Some terms in an older era, like 男人婆(Literal translation: man-woman, closer to "butch" without the relation with sexual orientation) or another modern slang 女漢子(Literal translation: female-tough guy/female-chad, 漢子is mostly referred to the ideal traditional masculine image of men) might be more aligned to the description of girls with masculine characteristics.
"Most of the times calling someone a "假小子" is a humiliation which implies that the individual could not find a boyfriend."
The nature of femboy and tomboy are not as acceptable as in some other countries. They might face discrimination or be seen as less attractive, but that is reverse causality.
"This largely reduces the value of women to only romance and diminishes girls' confidence in working in what is traditionally defined as the "boy's realm.""
The nature of "假小子" is less likely related to the "boy's realm" working environment. I don't know where this conclusion comes from; it is unrelated to reference 27.
Thank you. Airynod ( talk) 13:20, 5 February 2024 (UTC)