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Hi.
Just wondering about the voiced stops & affricates. Are these really voiced? Or (like Athabaskan languages) are they really lenis voiceless unaspirated consonants that contrast with aspirated and ejective obstruents?
I havent read about Tlingit. Do the authors here know more about the phonetic realization of these?
Thanks.
— ishwar (SPEAK) 15:25, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
Nice work on the map. But it's not quite accurate, at least as far as existing research has it. See the Native Peoples and Languages of Alaska map by Krauss from the Alaska Native Language Center [1]. This map shows a large interior lobe corresponding to the areas where Tlingit is/was spoken along the Atlin, Tagish, and Teslin people, and on the Taku River. — Ts'éiyoosh
It seems to me that the obviously rare phoneme "tl" in this language was the inspiration for the same sound in Klingon. Perhaps the linguist who designed Klingon was inspired by the similarity of both names? Caesarion 09:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, I read a lot of the articles on these languages before, but until this one I never realized they featured that specific sound. Caesarion 09:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There have been a number of orthographies for Tlingit in the past. At present there are three major systems in use. One is the “Canadian” system used by the Yukon Native Language Center for its publications as well as most Canadian Tlingit speakers and students. Another is the “American” orthography used by Sealaska in all of its publications. The third is the “email” orthography which is a sort of compromise between the other two.
The Canadian system features a set of diacritics which are used over vowels to indicate tone and length. It also uses the set of consonants kh, xh, gh to represent the uvular consonant series. It has not been used much outside of the YNLC publications except in one published book written about the Taku River people. The American system represents these with an underscore, an innovation from typewriter days: k, x, g. It also has digraphs for long vowels and uses diacritics only for marking tone (except for ÿ which is an archaic consonant). It has been in use in one form or another since the 1960s, and is the most commonly used orthography in print.
The email orthography is a compromise between these two systems. It retains the digraphic long vowels; not the double vowels of Navajo, et sim., but ones similar to English pronounciations. It adopts the Canadian uvular graphs rather than the underscores for a technical reason—they are easily typed in email, but overstruck underscores are essentially impossible in plain text (^H_ notwithstanding).
The point to this explanation is that I am considering switching all of the Wikipedia entries using Tlingit from the American orthography to the email orthography. It is very difficult to constantly note the uvular consonants with the text “<u>k</u>”, the HTML cruft making the source almost unreadable. On the other hand writing the corresponding “kh” is simple, and easily read in both source and rendered form. There is no problem with kh being confused for k and h together, since the latter sequence does not seem to occur in Tlingit, and even if it did it would necessarily be the end of one syllable and the beginning of another, and would be easy to distinguish with a hyphen, e.g. k-h. This is similar to the use of hyphens in English to separate two vowels, e.g. co-ordinate, auto-assembly.
The only problem with this change is that some people may be unaware of the email orthography. This is unlikely for most active students of Tlingit (and for speakers who use computers) since they are already exposed to the email orthography in many informal situations. Indeed, as a community they developed the email orthography themselves, despite it not having any officially sanctioned use. Others will probably have little problem adapting to it since it differs little with the American system.
(I should admit that I have moved to the email orthography in my personal writing. I also have a fairly extensive article on Tlingit grammar that I have been writing, and am considering it for inclusion in Wikipedia as part of this article. I've used the email orthography throughout, so moving to this would ease the incorporation of this article.)
That's my proposal. Any comments? — Jéioosh 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The text says 500 native speakers, while the sidebar lists > 1,200 speakers. Is the sidebar including non-native speakers? (That would seem to go against what's done for most other languages). Or are there different numbers from different sources? A small discrepancy wouldn't be so bad, but these numbers are off by a large amount, so it would be good to stick with the more accurate number if there's a disagreement. Jiashudiwanjin 04:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been researching materials for Fort Tongass and Tongass Island and may yet dare to write Tongass people (without ethnography being my specialty...). In the websearches I found this interesting page on the Tongass dialect of Tlingit, and figured someone of the linguistics folks here might find it worthwhile to incorporate into the article, or even stub up a separate article. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
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Isn't there a rather large lexical category missing from the grammar section? There's a separate Tlingit noun article, but where is Tlingit verb? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VeryRarelyStable ( talk • contribs) 09:57, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I am a native speaker of the language, and the pronunciation is not accurate. Tlingit is pronounced t͡ɬɪ̀nkɪ́tʰ. The pronunciation does not line up correctly to our writing system and phonology. For instance, the phoneme ɬ is always represented as l or L. The phoneme tɬ is always represented as tl or dl, depending on the context. Next we have the letter “i” which always represents the vowel ɪ. Macy Sinrich ( talk) 00:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The spelling of "Tlingit" represents a semi-Anglicized version of the word ɬinkít, which means 'person' in this language. A more ruthlessly Anglicized pronunciation, [ˈklɪŋkɪt], is commonly used in Alaska, including by many members of the ethnic group concerned(p. 136). Nardog ( talk) 02:09, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Tlingit has a system of four distinctive vowel qualities, i, e, a, u. All four occur both long and short, with the short vowels tending to be pronounced more centralized than the long vowels(p. 141). So the use of ⟨i⟩ is defensible from a phonological standpoint, though for the sake of consistency with the body of the article ⟨ɪ⟩ may indeed be more appropriate. Nardog ( talk) 02:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The article text includes:
(khu-ÿu-ÿa-t'áa, INDH.OBJ-PERF-(0, -D, +I)-hot)
I have not been able to either guess or remember or find the meaning of INDH in a linguistic context; for example, it is not included in /info/en/?search=List_of_glossing_abbreviations.
Could the "H" be spurious, and could "IND.OBJ" be intended? Redav ( talk) 15:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
"Tlingit has a complex phonological system, compared to Indo-European languages such as English or Spanish."
Is it really compared to Indo-European languages by someone? There is no citation, and although I'm aware that this is very subjective, for me it looks much more similar to Northeast Caucasian languages like Avar and Lezgian. I personally don't see anything Indo-European-like about Tlingit's phonology. 185.51.250.252 ( talk) 20:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Can we add a sample passage in the Tlingit language, for example the Lord's Prayer, which we have in the Tongva language article? 2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 ( talk) 01:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Daily page views
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Hi.
Just wondering about the voiced stops & affricates. Are these really voiced? Or (like Athabaskan languages) are they really lenis voiceless unaspirated consonants that contrast with aspirated and ejective obstruents?
I havent read about Tlingit. Do the authors here know more about the phonetic realization of these?
Thanks.
— ishwar (SPEAK) 15:25, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)
Nice work on the map. But it's not quite accurate, at least as far as existing research has it. See the Native Peoples and Languages of Alaska map by Krauss from the Alaska Native Language Center [1]. This map shows a large interior lobe corresponding to the areas where Tlingit is/was spoken along the Atlin, Tagish, and Teslin people, and on the Taku River. — Ts'éiyoosh
It seems to me that the obviously rare phoneme "tl" in this language was the inspiration for the same sound in Klingon. Perhaps the linguist who designed Klingon was inspired by the similarity of both names? Caesarion 09:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OK, I read a lot of the articles on these languages before, but until this one I never realized they featured that specific sound. Caesarion 09:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There have been a number of orthographies for Tlingit in the past. At present there are three major systems in use. One is the “Canadian” system used by the Yukon Native Language Center for its publications as well as most Canadian Tlingit speakers and students. Another is the “American” orthography used by Sealaska in all of its publications. The third is the “email” orthography which is a sort of compromise between the other two.
The Canadian system features a set of diacritics which are used over vowels to indicate tone and length. It also uses the set of consonants kh, xh, gh to represent the uvular consonant series. It has not been used much outside of the YNLC publications except in one published book written about the Taku River people. The American system represents these with an underscore, an innovation from typewriter days: k, x, g. It also has digraphs for long vowels and uses diacritics only for marking tone (except for ÿ which is an archaic consonant). It has been in use in one form or another since the 1960s, and is the most commonly used orthography in print.
The email orthography is a compromise between these two systems. It retains the digraphic long vowels; not the double vowels of Navajo, et sim., but ones similar to English pronounciations. It adopts the Canadian uvular graphs rather than the underscores for a technical reason—they are easily typed in email, but overstruck underscores are essentially impossible in plain text (^H_ notwithstanding).
The point to this explanation is that I am considering switching all of the Wikipedia entries using Tlingit from the American orthography to the email orthography. It is very difficult to constantly note the uvular consonants with the text “<u>k</u>”, the HTML cruft making the source almost unreadable. On the other hand writing the corresponding “kh” is simple, and easily read in both source and rendered form. There is no problem with kh being confused for k and h together, since the latter sequence does not seem to occur in Tlingit, and even if it did it would necessarily be the end of one syllable and the beginning of another, and would be easy to distinguish with a hyphen, e.g. k-h. This is similar to the use of hyphens in English to separate two vowels, e.g. co-ordinate, auto-assembly.
The only problem with this change is that some people may be unaware of the email orthography. This is unlikely for most active students of Tlingit (and for speakers who use computers) since they are already exposed to the email orthography in many informal situations. Indeed, as a community they developed the email orthography themselves, despite it not having any officially sanctioned use. Others will probably have little problem adapting to it since it differs little with the American system.
(I should admit that I have moved to the email orthography in my personal writing. I also have a fairly extensive article on Tlingit grammar that I have been writing, and am considering it for inclusion in Wikipedia as part of this article. I've used the email orthography throughout, so moving to this would ease the incorporation of this article.)
That's my proposal. Any comments? — Jéioosh 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
The text says 500 native speakers, while the sidebar lists > 1,200 speakers. Is the sidebar including non-native speakers? (That would seem to go against what's done for most other languages). Or are there different numbers from different sources? A small discrepancy wouldn't be so bad, but these numbers are off by a large amount, so it would be good to stick with the more accurate number if there's a disagreement. Jiashudiwanjin 04:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been researching materials for Fort Tongass and Tongass Island and may yet dare to write Tongass people (without ethnography being my specialty...). In the websearches I found this interesting page on the Tongass dialect of Tlingit, and figured someone of the linguistics folks here might find it worthwhile to incorporate into the article, or even stub up a separate article. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Tlingit language. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Isn't there a rather large lexical category missing from the grammar section? There's a separate Tlingit noun article, but where is Tlingit verb? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VeryRarelyStable ( talk • contribs) 09:57, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I am a native speaker of the language, and the pronunciation is not accurate. Tlingit is pronounced t͡ɬɪ̀nkɪ́tʰ. The pronunciation does not line up correctly to our writing system and phonology. For instance, the phoneme ɬ is always represented as l or L. The phoneme tɬ is always represented as tl or dl, depending on the context. Next we have the letter “i” which always represents the vowel ɪ. Macy Sinrich ( talk) 00:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The spelling of "Tlingit" represents a semi-Anglicized version of the word ɬinkít, which means 'person' in this language. A more ruthlessly Anglicized pronunciation, [ˈklɪŋkɪt], is commonly used in Alaska, including by many members of the ethnic group concerned(p. 136). Nardog ( talk) 02:09, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Tlingit has a system of four distinctive vowel qualities, i, e, a, u. All four occur both long and short, with the short vowels tending to be pronounced more centralized than the long vowels(p. 141). So the use of ⟨i⟩ is defensible from a phonological standpoint, though for the sake of consistency with the body of the article ⟨ɪ⟩ may indeed be more appropriate. Nardog ( talk) 02:14, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The article text includes:
(khu-ÿu-ÿa-t'áa, INDH.OBJ-PERF-(0, -D, +I)-hot)
I have not been able to either guess or remember or find the meaning of INDH in a linguistic context; for example, it is not included in /info/en/?search=List_of_glossing_abbreviations.
Could the "H" be spurious, and could "IND.OBJ" be intended? Redav ( talk) 15:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
"Tlingit has a complex phonological system, compared to Indo-European languages such as English or Spanish."
Is it really compared to Indo-European languages by someone? There is no citation, and although I'm aware that this is very subjective, for me it looks much more similar to Northeast Caucasian languages like Avar and Lezgian. I personally don't see anything Indo-European-like about Tlingit's phonology. 185.51.250.252 ( talk) 20:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Can we add a sample passage in the Tlingit language, for example the Lord's Prayer, which we have in the Tongva language article? 2605:A000:FFC0:5F:F9BD:9D:B97C:57D4 ( talk) 01:58, 9 November 2023 (UTC)