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I am loath the be the proverbial 'bearer of bad news', although it has become apparent that every article questioning Jewish beneficence is, in some way or another, altered by Jews in order to render themselves beneficent (when they are, in actuality, the contrary). Par exemple, this article initially read:
' Prior to becoming emperor, Titus was a successful general who crushed the Jewish Rebellion in 70. Although his reign was brief, he was considered a good emperor by Tacitus and other contemporary historians; in this role he is best-known for his public building program in Rome and for his generosity in relieving the suffering caused by two disasters, the Mount Vesuvius eruption of 79 and the fire of Rome of 80. '
Then, after being reworked by a Jewish hand :
' Prior to becoming emperor, Titus served as a general under his father during the First Jewish-Roman War from 67 until 69, and ultimately led the Roman army to victory during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70, which resulted in the complete destruction of the Second Temple and the looting of the city. For his achievement Titus was bestowed with a triumph, the Arch of Titus which commemorates this victory until this day. '
I shan't touch upon this topic any further. Now, the article concerning the First Jewish-Roman War reads,
' was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews of Iudaea Province against the Roman Empire (the second was the Kitos War in 115–117 CE, the third was Bar Kokhba's revolt, 132–135 CE). It began in the year 66, stemming from Greek and Jewish religious tension. '
Thus, I am not generally opposed to an editor's mention of looting and so forth -- but, please, bestow an example upon my ignorant head when looting was not the result of any war or siege? By and large, Titus was quelling a rebellion.
Moreover, if this is not rectified within the next several days, I shall do so myself. I would not be so harsh in my judgement, although, to speak in earnest, this is, perhaps, the dozenth article I have hitherto read with some Jewish alteration staring forth at me like the black eyes of Ba'al. Alas, Beneifcent Jews, you are equally as (or more) guilty as (than) any other race.
-- Nalco 17:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering, are the characters in La Clemenza di Tito based on figures in Titus' life? In particular, Sesto, Vitellia, and Publio? -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:20, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the article is incorrect about La Clemenza di Tito being about Titus. It is set during the reign of Vespasian, So Tito in the opera is really Vespasian, not the man we know as Titus. Vitellia was indeed the name of Vitellius' daughter, but I'm not aware of any real historical connection she had to Vespasian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.242.54.162 ( talk) 18:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
This page links to the 64 A.D. Roman fire, not the 80 A.D. one. If there is no link for the 80 A.D. fire the link should be taken away. User_talk: WikipediafagsruinWikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.55.36 ( talk) 05:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I need some help verifying a few claims from this article for which I have not yet found a reliable source:
Thanks in advance. -- Steerpike 18:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
These are just some personal thoughts on apparent contradictions in the life of Titus, leading me to believe that his reign was not nearly as rose-coloured as ancient sources would have us believe.
So conclusion: I'm perfectly willing to believe he was a fine emperor but 1) his reign was really too short to draw real conclusions, 2) the writers of the time were not objective so 3) he probably wasn't a saint either. Just my 2 cents ^^ -- Steerpike 10:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Excellent work. I hope you take this to FAC. One improvement I would like to see is the conversion of links to WikiSource from URLs to meta markup (ie wikisource:The_War_of_the_Jews). Good luck, Tewfik Talk 05:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this Titus is less important than the Biblical Titus, I am moving it Titus (emperor). Captain Zyrain 18:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately, the difficulty of fixing links shouldn't be a determining factor in whether or not to move a page. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I'm very happy to pass this, it is excellent. It wouldn't take a huge amount of work to get this to FA. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 16:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as my sources show, Titus never bore the cognomen Sabinus at any point. He was as Titus Flavius T.f. Vespasianus from birth until the accession of his father, whereupon he became Imp. Titus Caesar Aug.f. Vespasianus. Upon becoming emperor himself, he became Imp. Titus Caesar Divi Vespasiani.f. Vespasianus Augustus. Sources: Stech, B. (1912) Senatores Romani qui fueriut inde a Vespasiano usque ad Traiani exitum. Klio Beihefte 10 pp. 3, 52 and De Laet (1941) De Samenstelling van den Romeinschen Senaat onder de Regeering van Keizer Nero pp.189-190. Both Stech and De Laet cite the Prosopographia Imperii Romani and Pauly-Wissowa as sources. These are pretty authoratative, so if anyone has proof that Titus bore the cognomen Sabinus, I'd like to know! 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 15:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Indeed T. Flavius Sabinus (I) was the name of Titus' grandfather, but that's not my point. What is the point is that the cognomen was not passed onto Vespasian or, through him, to Titus or Domitian. The name continued only through the line of Vespasian's older brother, hence: T. Flavius Sabinus (II) (cos. c.47), Vespasian's brother, Titus' uncle. T. Flavius Sabinus (III) (cos. II 72), son of the above - Vespasian's nephew, Titus' first cousin. T. Flavius Sabinus (IV) (cos. 82), son of the above - Vespasian's grandnephew, Titus first cousin once removed. Despite your contention, neither Tacitus, Suetonius, Dio, or any other ancient literary, epigraphic, or numismatic source gives Vespasian or his sons the name Sabinus. If they do, please cite it, it shouldn't be hard. Until then, the name should be left as is. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 20:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"Titus, cognomine paterno" means "Titus, of the same surname as his father", and is correctly given as such in the Loeb and Penguin translations (J.C. Rolfe and Robert Graves, respectively). To state that the perfectly valid translation of "paterno" from "of his father" to "of his ancestors" without citation is your own original research and hence invalid for a wiki article. Despite being the son of a Sabinus (and grandson of a Petro) Vespasian's only cognomen was Vespasianus. Titus' only cognomen was Vespasianus. This is supported also by numismatic and epigraphic evidence - none of which records Titus (or Vespasian) being a Sabinus.
Also, how do you know that (in your textual analysis of Suetonius) the name Sabinus is being alluded to instead of Petro, also an ancestral name? Or indeed an older ancestor? Also, if Suetonius' wording has "been taken to mean" that Titus bore the name Sabinus, then please provide a citation that is of better academic quality than Pauly-Wissowa, the PIR, Stech, or De Laet.
Provide a citation and Sabinus stands, if you can't then it can't. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 10:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain the note at the top explaining (sorta) the tria nomina? I mean this one:
{{ Roman name | praenomen = Titus | nomen = Flavius | cognomen = Vespasianus | agnomen = | nameused = Titus }} I haven't seen it on any other articles, and I'm not sure what it adds. Seems repetitive, since the first sentence of an article, especially on an emperor, usually explains the name. Thanks. Cynwolfe ( talk) 03:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I have been trying to find sources for the two unidentified quotes mentioned in the article. The first "no merit in vanquishing people forsaken by their own God" appears to be a modern interpretation of a quote from Flavius Philostratus's "The Life of Apollonius", Book 6, Chapter 29. In this translation, it says "but he disclaimed any such honor to himself, saying that it was not himself that had accomplished this exploit, but that he had merely lent his arms to God, who had so manifested his wrath." Since in the article this is claiming to be a direct quote, it cannot remain as is. Given the only translation I can find is very archaic, I think it the modern version should be kept in the article, but without the quotation marks.
The second quote ("because their god has forsaken them, I will offer them the sword or the cross, either one will do") I cannot find anywhere, in either this form, or in any other version. Therefore I am proposing to remove this second unsourced quotation, and I will attempt to do it in the next day or two. Oatley2112 ( talk) 14:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
This is a very surprising GA. Out of more than a hundred inline citations, all but nineteen are from first- and second-century sources.
If the answer to either of the first two, especially the second, is "yes", then the article as it stands is an OR nightmare.
If the answer to the third is "yes", then the article, while not necessarily containing OR, is very poorly formatted and is not easily verifiable, as in order to check it against its sources one would need to make a detailed list of the factual claims in the article and then read two books from start to finish, checking the points off one by one.
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 06:30, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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For some strange reason, there has been a spike in vandalism on this page (Idle minds locked at home?), which has led to problems for editors. Should I increase the protection level for this article to pending changes protection? HalfdanRagnarsson ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
![]() | Titus was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Titus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am loath the be the proverbial 'bearer of bad news', although it has become apparent that every article questioning Jewish beneficence is, in some way or another, altered by Jews in order to render themselves beneficent (when they are, in actuality, the contrary). Par exemple, this article initially read:
' Prior to becoming emperor, Titus was a successful general who crushed the Jewish Rebellion in 70. Although his reign was brief, he was considered a good emperor by Tacitus and other contemporary historians; in this role he is best-known for his public building program in Rome and for his generosity in relieving the suffering caused by two disasters, the Mount Vesuvius eruption of 79 and the fire of Rome of 80. '
Then, after being reworked by a Jewish hand :
' Prior to becoming emperor, Titus served as a general under his father during the First Jewish-Roman War from 67 until 69, and ultimately led the Roman army to victory during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70, which resulted in the complete destruction of the Second Temple and the looting of the city. For his achievement Titus was bestowed with a triumph, the Arch of Titus which commemorates this victory until this day. '
I shan't touch upon this topic any further. Now, the article concerning the First Jewish-Roman War reads,
' was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews of Iudaea Province against the Roman Empire (the second was the Kitos War in 115–117 CE, the third was Bar Kokhba's revolt, 132–135 CE). It began in the year 66, stemming from Greek and Jewish religious tension. '
Thus, I am not generally opposed to an editor's mention of looting and so forth -- but, please, bestow an example upon my ignorant head when looting was not the result of any war or siege? By and large, Titus was quelling a rebellion.
Moreover, if this is not rectified within the next several days, I shall do so myself. I would not be so harsh in my judgement, although, to speak in earnest, this is, perhaps, the dozenth article I have hitherto read with some Jewish alteration staring forth at me like the black eyes of Ba'al. Alas, Beneifcent Jews, you are equally as (or more) guilty as (than) any other race.
-- Nalco 17:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering, are the characters in La Clemenza di Tito based on figures in Titus' life? In particular, Sesto, Vitellia, and Publio? -- DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:20, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the article is incorrect about La Clemenza di Tito being about Titus. It is set during the reign of Vespasian, So Tito in the opera is really Vespasian, not the man we know as Titus. Vitellia was indeed the name of Vitellius' daughter, but I'm not aware of any real historical connection she had to Vespasian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.242.54.162 ( talk) 18:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
This page links to the 64 A.D. Roman fire, not the 80 A.D. one. If there is no link for the 80 A.D. fire the link should be taken away. User_talk: WikipediafagsruinWikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.55.36 ( talk) 05:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I need some help verifying a few claims from this article for which I have not yet found a reliable source:
Thanks in advance. -- Steerpike 18:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
These are just some personal thoughts on apparent contradictions in the life of Titus, leading me to believe that his reign was not nearly as rose-coloured as ancient sources would have us believe.
So conclusion: I'm perfectly willing to believe he was a fine emperor but 1) his reign was really too short to draw real conclusions, 2) the writers of the time were not objective so 3) he probably wasn't a saint either. Just my 2 cents ^^ -- Steerpike 10:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Excellent work. I hope you take this to FAC. One improvement I would like to see is the conversion of links to WikiSource from URLs to meta markup (ie wikisource:The_War_of_the_Jews). Good luck, Tewfik Talk 05:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this Titus is less important than the Biblical Titus, I am moving it Titus (emperor). Captain Zyrain 18:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Ultimately, the difficulty of fixing links shouldn't be a determining factor in whether or not to move a page. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I'm very happy to pass this, it is excellent. It wouldn't take a huge amount of work to get this to FA. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Jackyd101 ( talk) 16:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
As far as my sources show, Titus never bore the cognomen Sabinus at any point. He was as Titus Flavius T.f. Vespasianus from birth until the accession of his father, whereupon he became Imp. Titus Caesar Aug.f. Vespasianus. Upon becoming emperor himself, he became Imp. Titus Caesar Divi Vespasiani.f. Vespasianus Augustus. Sources: Stech, B. (1912) Senatores Romani qui fueriut inde a Vespasiano usque ad Traiani exitum. Klio Beihefte 10 pp. 3, 52 and De Laet (1941) De Samenstelling van den Romeinschen Senaat onder de Regeering van Keizer Nero pp.189-190. Both Stech and De Laet cite the Prosopographia Imperii Romani and Pauly-Wissowa as sources. These are pretty authoratative, so if anyone has proof that Titus bore the cognomen Sabinus, I'd like to know! 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 15:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Indeed T. Flavius Sabinus (I) was the name of Titus' grandfather, but that's not my point. What is the point is that the cognomen was not passed onto Vespasian or, through him, to Titus or Domitian. The name continued only through the line of Vespasian's older brother, hence: T. Flavius Sabinus (II) (cos. c.47), Vespasian's brother, Titus' uncle. T. Flavius Sabinus (III) (cos. II 72), son of the above - Vespasian's nephew, Titus' first cousin. T. Flavius Sabinus (IV) (cos. 82), son of the above - Vespasian's grandnephew, Titus first cousin once removed. Despite your contention, neither Tacitus, Suetonius, Dio, or any other ancient literary, epigraphic, or numismatic source gives Vespasian or his sons the name Sabinus. If they do, please cite it, it shouldn't be hard. Until then, the name should be left as is. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 20:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"Titus, cognomine paterno" means "Titus, of the same surname as his father", and is correctly given as such in the Loeb and Penguin translations (J.C. Rolfe and Robert Graves, respectively). To state that the perfectly valid translation of "paterno" from "of his father" to "of his ancestors" without citation is your own original research and hence invalid for a wiki article. Despite being the son of a Sabinus (and grandson of a Petro) Vespasian's only cognomen was Vespasianus. Titus' only cognomen was Vespasianus. This is supported also by numismatic and epigraphic evidence - none of which records Titus (or Vespasian) being a Sabinus.
Also, how do you know that (in your textual analysis of Suetonius) the name Sabinus is being alluded to instead of Petro, also an ancestral name? Or indeed an older ancestor? Also, if Suetonius' wording has "been taken to mean" that Titus bore the name Sabinus, then please provide a citation that is of better academic quality than Pauly-Wissowa, the PIR, Stech, or De Laet.
Provide a citation and Sabinus stands, if you can't then it can't. 82.44.82.167 ( talk) 10:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain the note at the top explaining (sorta) the tria nomina? I mean this one:
{{ Roman name | praenomen = Titus | nomen = Flavius | cognomen = Vespasianus | agnomen = | nameused = Titus }} I haven't seen it on any other articles, and I'm not sure what it adds. Seems repetitive, since the first sentence of an article, especially on an emperor, usually explains the name. Thanks. Cynwolfe ( talk) 03:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
I have been trying to find sources for the two unidentified quotes mentioned in the article. The first "no merit in vanquishing people forsaken by their own God" appears to be a modern interpretation of a quote from Flavius Philostratus's "The Life of Apollonius", Book 6, Chapter 29. In this translation, it says "but he disclaimed any such honor to himself, saying that it was not himself that had accomplished this exploit, but that he had merely lent his arms to God, who had so manifested his wrath." Since in the article this is claiming to be a direct quote, it cannot remain as is. Given the only translation I can find is very archaic, I think it the modern version should be kept in the article, but without the quotation marks.
The second quote ("because their god has forsaken them, I will offer them the sword or the cross, either one will do") I cannot find anywhere, in either this form, or in any other version. Therefore I am proposing to remove this second unsourced quotation, and I will attempt to do it in the next day or two. Oatley2112 ( talk) 14:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
This is a very surprising GA. Out of more than a hundred inline citations, all but nineteen are from first- and second-century sources.
If the answer to either of the first two, especially the second, is "yes", then the article as it stands is an OR nightmare.
If the answer to the third is "yes", then the article, while not necessarily containing OR, is very poorly formatted and is not easily verifiable, as in order to check it against its sources one would need to make a detailed list of the factual claims in the article and then read two books from start to finish, checking the points off one by one.
Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 06:30, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Titus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
For some strange reason, there has been a spike in vandalism on this page (Idle minds locked at home?), which has led to problems for editors. Should I increase the protection level for this article to pending changes protection? HalfdanRagnarsson ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2020 (UTC)