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This article claims that Tim Ballard worked for the Department of Homeland Security, but the link provided to corroborate this claim is a website connected to Ballard's own organization. I don't believe this is a valid source for corroboration: Ballard (or a Ballard supporter) is simply pointing to a site that Ballard himself created, as "proof" of the claim.
If Ballard really worked for a government agency as prominent as the DHS for twelve years, there should be a legitimate source to point to to substantiate the claim. I propose that if no such source can be produced, then the claim must be regarded as false -- or at best unprovable -- and should be deleted. Chillowack ( talk) 19:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Addendum: an article in the Atlantic ( https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/children-sex-trafficking-conspiracy-epidemic/620845/) notes that DHS and CIA could confirm Ballard's alleged work history with them were he to grant them permission, which he has failed to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.133.245.88 ( talk) 21:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Was not aware of this point until this section was recently undeleted. Does anyone have a problem with deleting that information until we have a legitimate source for it, per Chillowack's proposal above? Fred Zepelin ( talk) 20:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
the referenced articles do not seem adequate to justify notability. 166.137.19.53 ( talk) 16:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
These edits removed content criticizing O.U.R., saying, e.g., that
it's not about him but about the organization. Ballard is the head and face of O.U.R., and features prominently in every article about O.U.R. His only claim to notability is his role at O.U.R. The negative content belongs here as well as at
Operation Underground Railroad. The sentence removed because of a missing citation: here it is with the citation and an added sentence. The Vice article mentions Ballard numerous times. A 2021 follow-up article further criticized O.U.R.'s practices, which included using inexperienced donors and celebrities as part of its "jump team", a lack of meaningful surveillance or identification of targets, failing to validate whether the people they intended to rescue were in fact actual trafficking victims, and conflating consensual sex work with sex trafficking. Ballard reportedly consulted a psychic for intelligence on one mission on the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
[1]
Content in the "Education" section and the entire "Federal Service" section added here is based entirely on bios Ballard submitted to various venues who hired him as a speaker or did fluff Q&As. None of it has been vetted by RS. The Atlantic asked the CIA and DHS for confirmation but were told that "they could not confirm Ballard's employment record without his written permission, which he did not provide." [2]
References
We shouldn't mention this in WP voice without reliable sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC) Added archive-url to paywalled Atlantic source. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
It's interesting that the subject of this article is described as an author, but it doesn't list any of his books. Kirby777 ( talk) 12:40, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
{{ Why is this QAnon-"criticism" still there considering his verbal and on-air denial of such connection. Based on three articles? I mean really?
With keeping this you might even work against his work on child trafficking by damaging his credibility. That is crazy. 185.238.219.77 ( talk) 16:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
-- Richwilkinson ( talk) 21:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC) The sources cited for the criticism that Ballard "supported QAnon conspiracy theories" do not actually contain any quotations from people saying that!!! In those sources, Ballard is said to have simply responded to questions designed to tie him to QAnon-aligned parties with the reply that, regardless of who is in favor of his work, "Child trafficking is real and happening!!!” Some have pointed to supposed QAnon supporters of the "Sound of Freedom" movie as proof Tim Ballard supports QAnon conspiracy theories but that's connecting dots that aren't there!!! It makes less logical sense than saying Biden supports crime because almost all convicts love him or that he's a pedophile because we know one pedophile voted for him. I recommend either removing the sentence with the citations that fail to support it or find some citations that point to sources that identify exactly who accused him of "supporting QAnon conspiracy theories" and when and where. If such cannot be found, news media who applied the term "QAnon-adjacent" to the movie about Ballard could be cited. A quick web search will return several of those. Let's promote accuracy here on Wikipedia!
As for Ballard's claim that African children are suffering from "ritual abuse" being an echo of QAnon theory, such abuse is actually happening, especially to albino children — See /info/en/?search=Child_sacrifice_in_Uganda
Ritual child abuse is happening in other African countries also: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa
Trying to tie Ballard and the "Sound of Freedom" to QAnon is a purely political ploy without supporting evidence. And it says nothing about the tragic truth of trafficked toddlers and teens! -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 21:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
"Ballard and supporters of O.U.R. have been accused of promoting the QAnon conspiracy theory"which I think you would agree is a factual and DUE statement, as those accusations have certainly been made and are covered widely. If you have reliable sources that specifically disagree with the Qanon accusations, then we can talk. – dlthewave ☎ 23:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
noteworthy, who paid for the movie. 'Sound of Freedom,' this summer's surprise blockbuster, is fronted by a QAnon supporter and financed by a man who defrauded Medicare
https://www.insider.com/sound-of-freedom-tim-ballard-qanon-medicare-fraud-2023-7 166.137.19.53 ( talk) 15:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC) -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 22:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Not so noteworthy when you look at the big picture. True, Andrew McCubbins, a Utah serial entrepreneur has been convicted of medicare fraud. He estimates his investment in the movie was several hundred thousand dollars. But that pales in comparison to a group of Mexican backers, who mainly funded the production of the movie for a reported $14.5 million. And it's not much compared to the $5 million that Angel Studios raised via crowdfunding for marketing and distribution from more than 7,000 people. Eduardo Verástegui paid an undisclosed amount to buy the movie from Disney. He originally produced the movie. He also directed and co-wrote the movie with Alejandro Monteverde. So, you see, the medicare fraudster's contribution was minor and says nothing about Ballard's character or the value of the movie in making people aware of the tragic trafficking of toddlers and teens for slavery and sex! As for whomever the frontman was, if Caviezel is meant, it should be noted that he denies even knowing anything about QAnon when filming the movie. He made the point that, just because somebody is against human trafficking like him, doesn't mean he endorses whatever else that somebody else is up to. Let's avoid the fallacy of guilt by association. It would be wrong to say that, since disgraced Sam Bankman-Fried donated to Joe Biden before being found as a campaign fraudster, that Biden is an illegitimate president or that Joe Biden is a NAZI because he took donations from NAZI collaborator George Soros. -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 22:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
It seems literally none of this guys credentials are verified AT all by any reliable source.
This section
>As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he served a two-year mission to Chile. After completing his mission, he attended and graduated cum laude from Brigham Young University with a Bachelor of Arts in Spanish and political science. He then obtained a Master of Arts in international politics from the Monterey Institute of International Studies, graduating summa cum laude.
Cites: https://ourrescue.org/about-us#team
Yet the only relevant information on this page about his credentials are his claims that he worked for DHS.
I did some more digging and his website makes no such claims about his degrees: https://www.timothyballard.com/
He has claims on LinkedIn as well, but I don't believe linkedin does any form of verification for this?
Based on: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources
It seems poorly sourced information like this should be removed immediately, I am not exactly a Wikipedia expert but this appears to be blatant poor references but do to the likely controversy of this page I am posting this talk section. Cynicaldebian ( talk) 04:27, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Wuerzele:
See WP:PROSELINE#Example of a proseline and a possible resolution.
Your edit also introduced another error. In August 2020, Ballard and supporters of O.U.R. were accused of promoting the QAnon conspiracy theory.[27][28][29] Ballard stated that this claim is not true and is being used to discredit him and the film Sound of Freedom.[30]
- the movie was only released in 2023
--
FMSky (
talk) 08:15, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
You on the other hand, I can see, have a major stake here: You are the editor with the most edits on this page. You behave like you WP:own this page. However, this bio is still poorly written, it is poorly sourced, even if you just removed the flag.
Why was this not merged when the Afd in April in a clear consensus called for a merge? scope_creep Talk 14:18, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
@ FMSky: You just claimed that the info you took out of the lead was found only in Vice ("rv, only vice reporting about it so it is undue for the lead, see /info/en/?search=Talk:Operation_Underground_Railroad#RfC:_Reliability_of_sources") but that doesn't appear to be true when I look at he body, we seem to have multiple sources including this NBC piece [1]. How do you explain this error? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of misconductdue for the lead or not??? -- FMSky ( talk) 15:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
denied the allegations laid out in a VICE News story-- FMSky ( talk) 15:21, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
So what do you suggest, another RfC? -- FMSky ( talk) 16:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The lead is meant to summarize significant portions of the body. One sentence will suffice. Whitewashing the Ballard misconduct allegations isn't something Wikipedia should be doing. Ballard didn't leave the organization he founded for no reason. The misconduct allegations are well-sourced. Andrew Englehart ( talk) 23:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Procedural close. The other RfC is still ongoing to the extent that editors are literally commenting on it today. As such, WP:DE, WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:BLUDGEON may apply. SN54129 15:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC) SN54129 15:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Since the first RfC was ignored (
1) and there are continued disagreements about it, again the question if the following is due for the lead and can be stated in wikivoice: Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of sexual misconduct, grooming, and manipulation of women affiliated with the organization.
--
FMSky (
talk) 13:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
"Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of misconduct"in the lead with a slightly longer explanation in the body. – dlthewave ☎ 02:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change "That same morning, O.U.R. released" to "That same morning, O.U.R. reportedly released" Jennadar ( talk) 23:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
The article currently says “ After the public sexual misconduct accusations, he was excommunicated from the Church.” The source for that states the lawsuit filed against him states he was excommunicated. Given anyone can file a lawsuit and state whatever they want, that doesn’t make it fact. To state it as fact is misleading. People have sued their own split personality and God, for Christs sake. 2601:8C0:380:35C0:2DF0:BB27:4F70:C0DA ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 25 April 2023. The result of the discussion was merge. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tim Ballard article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. |
![]() | This page was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
This article claims that Tim Ballard worked for the Department of Homeland Security, but the link provided to corroborate this claim is a website connected to Ballard's own organization. I don't believe this is a valid source for corroboration: Ballard (or a Ballard supporter) is simply pointing to a site that Ballard himself created, as "proof" of the claim.
If Ballard really worked for a government agency as prominent as the DHS for twelve years, there should be a legitimate source to point to to substantiate the claim. I propose that if no such source can be produced, then the claim must be regarded as false -- or at best unprovable -- and should be deleted. Chillowack ( talk) 19:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Addendum: an article in the Atlantic ( https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/01/children-sex-trafficking-conspiracy-epidemic/620845/) notes that DHS and CIA could confirm Ballard's alleged work history with them were he to grant them permission, which he has failed to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.133.245.88 ( talk) 21:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Was not aware of this point until this section was recently undeleted. Does anyone have a problem with deleting that information until we have a legitimate source for it, per Chillowack's proposal above? Fred Zepelin ( talk) 20:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
the referenced articles do not seem adequate to justify notability. 166.137.19.53 ( talk) 16:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
These edits removed content criticizing O.U.R., saying, e.g., that
it's not about him but about the organization. Ballard is the head and face of O.U.R., and features prominently in every article about O.U.R. His only claim to notability is his role at O.U.R. The negative content belongs here as well as at
Operation Underground Railroad. The sentence removed because of a missing citation: here it is with the citation and an added sentence. The Vice article mentions Ballard numerous times. A 2021 follow-up article further criticized O.U.R.'s practices, which included using inexperienced donors and celebrities as part of its "jump team", a lack of meaningful surveillance or identification of targets, failing to validate whether the people they intended to rescue were in fact actual trafficking victims, and conflating consensual sex work with sex trafficking. Ballard reportedly consulted a psychic for intelligence on one mission on the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
[1]
Content in the "Education" section and the entire "Federal Service" section added here is based entirely on bios Ballard submitted to various venues who hired him as a speaker or did fluff Q&As. None of it has been vetted by RS. The Atlantic asked the CIA and DHS for confirmation but were told that "they could not confirm Ballard's employment record without his written permission, which he did not provide." [2]
References
We shouldn't mention this in WP voice without reliable sources. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC) Added archive-url to paywalled Atlantic source. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
It's interesting that the subject of this article is described as an author, but it doesn't list any of his books. Kirby777 ( talk) 12:40, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
{{ Why is this QAnon-"criticism" still there considering his verbal and on-air denial of such connection. Based on three articles? I mean really?
With keeping this you might even work against his work on child trafficking by damaging his credibility. That is crazy. 185.238.219.77 ( talk) 16:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
-- Richwilkinson ( talk) 21:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC) The sources cited for the criticism that Ballard "supported QAnon conspiracy theories" do not actually contain any quotations from people saying that!!! In those sources, Ballard is said to have simply responded to questions designed to tie him to QAnon-aligned parties with the reply that, regardless of who is in favor of his work, "Child trafficking is real and happening!!!” Some have pointed to supposed QAnon supporters of the "Sound of Freedom" movie as proof Tim Ballard supports QAnon conspiracy theories but that's connecting dots that aren't there!!! It makes less logical sense than saying Biden supports crime because almost all convicts love him or that he's a pedophile because we know one pedophile voted for him. I recommend either removing the sentence with the citations that fail to support it or find some citations that point to sources that identify exactly who accused him of "supporting QAnon conspiracy theories" and when and where. If such cannot be found, news media who applied the term "QAnon-adjacent" to the movie about Ballard could be cited. A quick web search will return several of those. Let's promote accuracy here on Wikipedia!
As for Ballard's claim that African children are suffering from "ritual abuse" being an echo of QAnon theory, such abuse is actually happening, especially to albino children — See /info/en/?search=Child_sacrifice_in_Uganda
Ritual child abuse is happening in other African countries also: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/jun/08/witch-hunts-ritual-child-abuse-albinism-africa
Trying to tie Ballard and the "Sound of Freedom" to QAnon is a purely political ploy without supporting evidence. And it says nothing about the tragic truth of trafficked toddlers and teens! -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 21:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
"Ballard and supporters of O.U.R. have been accused of promoting the QAnon conspiracy theory"which I think you would agree is a factual and DUE statement, as those accusations have certainly been made and are covered widely. If you have reliable sources that specifically disagree with the Qanon accusations, then we can talk. – dlthewave ☎ 23:43, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
noteworthy, who paid for the movie. 'Sound of Freedom,' this summer's surprise blockbuster, is fronted by a QAnon supporter and financed by a man who defrauded Medicare
https://www.insider.com/sound-of-freedom-tim-ballard-qanon-medicare-fraud-2023-7 166.137.19.53 ( talk) 15:39, 21 July 2023 (UTC) -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 22:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Not so noteworthy when you look at the big picture. True, Andrew McCubbins, a Utah serial entrepreneur has been convicted of medicare fraud. He estimates his investment in the movie was several hundred thousand dollars. But that pales in comparison to a group of Mexican backers, who mainly funded the production of the movie for a reported $14.5 million. And it's not much compared to the $5 million that Angel Studios raised via crowdfunding for marketing and distribution from more than 7,000 people. Eduardo Verástegui paid an undisclosed amount to buy the movie from Disney. He originally produced the movie. He also directed and co-wrote the movie with Alejandro Monteverde. So, you see, the medicare fraudster's contribution was minor and says nothing about Ballard's character or the value of the movie in making people aware of the tragic trafficking of toddlers and teens for slavery and sex! As for whomever the frontman was, if Caviezel is meant, it should be noted that he denies even knowing anything about QAnon when filming the movie. He made the point that, just because somebody is against human trafficking like him, doesn't mean he endorses whatever else that somebody else is up to. Let's avoid the fallacy of guilt by association. It would be wrong to say that, since disgraced Sam Bankman-Fried donated to Joe Biden before being found as a campaign fraudster, that Biden is an illegitimate president or that Joe Biden is a NAZI because he took donations from NAZI collaborator George Soros. -- Richwilkinson ( talk) 22:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC) |
It seems literally none of this guys credentials are verified AT all by any reliable source.
This section
>As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he served a two-year mission to Chile. After completing his mission, he attended and graduated cum laude from Brigham Young University with a Bachelor of Arts in Spanish and political science. He then obtained a Master of Arts in international politics from the Monterey Institute of International Studies, graduating summa cum laude.
Cites: https://ourrescue.org/about-us#team
Yet the only relevant information on this page about his credentials are his claims that he worked for DHS.
I did some more digging and his website makes no such claims about his degrees: https://www.timothyballard.com/
He has claims on LinkedIn as well, but I don't believe linkedin does any form of verification for this?
Based on: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Reliable_sources
It seems poorly sourced information like this should be removed immediately, I am not exactly a Wikipedia expert but this appears to be blatant poor references but do to the likely controversy of this page I am posting this talk section. Cynicaldebian ( talk) 04:27, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Wuerzele:
See WP:PROSELINE#Example of a proseline and a possible resolution.
Your edit also introduced another error. In August 2020, Ballard and supporters of O.U.R. were accused of promoting the QAnon conspiracy theory.[27][28][29] Ballard stated that this claim is not true and is being used to discredit him and the film Sound of Freedom.[30]
- the movie was only released in 2023
--
FMSky (
talk) 08:15, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
You on the other hand, I can see, have a major stake here: You are the editor with the most edits on this page. You behave like you WP:own this page. However, this bio is still poorly written, it is poorly sourced, even if you just removed the flag.
Why was this not merged when the Afd in April in a clear consensus called for a merge? scope_creep Talk 14:18, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
@ FMSky: You just claimed that the info you took out of the lead was found only in Vice ("rv, only vice reporting about it so it is undue for the lead, see /info/en/?search=Talk:Operation_Underground_Railroad#RfC:_Reliability_of_sources") but that doesn't appear to be true when I look at he body, we seem to have multiple sources including this NBC piece [1]. How do you explain this error? Horse Eye's Back ( talk) 15:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of misconductdue for the lead or not??? -- FMSky ( talk) 15:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
denied the allegations laid out in a VICE News story-- FMSky ( talk) 15:21, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
So what do you suggest, another RfC? -- FMSky ( talk) 16:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The lead is meant to summarize significant portions of the body. One sentence will suffice. Whitewashing the Ballard misconduct allegations isn't something Wikipedia should be doing. Ballard didn't leave the organization he founded for no reason. The misconduct allegations are well-sourced. Andrew Englehart ( talk) 23:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Procedural close. The other RfC is still ongoing to the extent that editors are literally commenting on it today. As such, WP:DE, WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:BLUDGEON may apply. SN54129 15:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC) SN54129 15:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
Since the first RfC was ignored (
1) and there are continued disagreements about it, again the question if the following is due for the lead and can be stated in wikivoice: Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of sexual misconduct, grooming, and manipulation of women affiliated with the organization.
--
FMSky (
talk) 13:21, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
"Ballard left O.U.R. in 2023 amid accusations of misconduct"in the lead with a slightly longer explanation in the body. – dlthewave ☎ 02:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change "That same morning, O.U.R. released" to "That same morning, O.U.R. reportedly released" Jennadar ( talk) 23:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
The article currently says “ After the public sexual misconduct accusations, he was excommunicated from the Church.” The source for that states the lawsuit filed against him states he was excommunicated. Given anyone can file a lawsuit and state whatever they want, that doesn’t make it fact. To state it as fact is misleading. People have sued their own split personality and God, for Christs sake. 2601:8C0:380:35C0:2DF0:BB27:4F70:C0DA ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)