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er.. am shifting as promised when i created a new article from this page so thats my argument for using 'hang on' to annul the hasty delete sign Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
When Cityvalyu created this article (or rather moved it from 2008 Indian Floods), he left multiple broken references which still need to be fixed. Superm401 - Talk 05:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC news channel is reporting on the Russian armoured convoy that left Gori along the highway in the direction of Tblisi. It pulled off the highway and the BBC is showing pictures of it deploying around a ethnic South Ossetian village in Georgian territory between Gori and Tblisi. A small Georgian detachment was seen leaving Tblisi in the direction of the village.
Russian troops have returned to Poti and are reportedly sinking Georgian ships moored in the harbour. 86.143.189.22 ( talk) 15:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
As I understand Wiki policy, the first reference to a Wiki linkable subject should be the only one linked in the article. But there are multiple CNN links on this page under different dates (one of them I linked). I also noticed names were multiply internally linked. Should we do additional links for each date, or just one per article. It is a long article.... Jason3777 ( talk) 03:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've added an entry for August 14 with a link to some info of a reporter in the Area.
I'll translate what the article says about Russian tanks/cars in Gori. http://deredactie.be/cm/de.redactie/buitenland/080814_havens_Georgie "Pal op de invalsweg naar Gori staan drie Russische pantserwagens", meldt Blommaert. "Daarnaast in het struikgewas zijn er nog enkele tanks gestationeerd en verderop liggen er hier en daar sluipschutters."
"Directly on the/a (major) road to Gori are 3 Russian Armored cars", Blommaert says. "Closeby in the bushes are some tanks positioned and a bit further away there are snipers here and there."
It's a crude but accurate translation.
BTW, I'm a noob at Wikipedia so excuse my mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.0.8 ( talk) 10:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I fixed the page numbers (one of them was wrong). I was told I needed a media source to show the parts of the transcript I referenced were relevant, so I did the UN ref first, followed by the media relevancy justification. The CNN refs were removed. Please read the speakers intros for the rebukes. I have a 102 F fever today so I can't restore them today. The reference is correct, please post any problems you have concering the page numbers below. It is a valid ref. Also could someone remove the red invalid citation. The text is there. And the CNN (or various other news organization) need to be re-added. I can't do it today because I feel like hell. If anyone could with this today, I would really appreciate it, because I am in no condition today to restore the CNN citations. It is a valid cite. Thanks Jason3777 ( talk) 20:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was not at my best yesterday, the big red citation freaked me out because I knew I was in no condition to fix it. Thank you, DuncanHill, for fixing that so quickly, I do appreciate it. And whoever reorganized the section by putting it in chronological order, added appropriate links and wrote the opening paragraph did a great job. Wikipedia is pretty awesome. I apologize for going off yesterday. Thank y'all, Jason3777 ( talk) 23:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
References
I feel that if the title says "Ceasefire Violated", there should at least be some mention of how the ceasefire was violated and explain it. How is someone supposed to know how it was violated if it doesn't even say. 24.46.123.59 ( talk) 20:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've cut the following as non reavlent to a timeline article about the current war and pasted it here so it could be easier moved to a more approative article (Russian-Polish relations?) "Russian General Anatoly Nogovitsyn was quoted by the Interfax News Agency as saying that by accepting a US missile battery Poland "is exposing itself to a strike". [1]" Jon ( talk) 18:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
References
"All previous talks about damaged town and marauding is not correspond to reality"
Shouldn't it be corresponding?-- GoldenMew ( talk) 19:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Rather awkward regardless, but "All previous talk about a damaged town and marauding does not correspond to reality" is correct. Plural of collective noun -- talk, to be replacing to do verb, missing artcle ("a"). Yes, a translation by a non-native speaker.
Is it worth creating a table which summarizes events. In have started the one below, but clearly it needs much more work. Greenshed ( talk) 20:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Date | General Situation | South Ossetia | Abkhazia | Russia Including North Ossetia-Alania |
Georgia Excluding South Ossetia and Abkhazia |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
August 1 to August 2 | Intense fighting commences in South Ossetia | Intense fighting between Georgian troops and paramilitary soldiers of South Ossetia | |||
August 3 | Intense fighting continues, South Ossetian refugees enter Russia | Intense fighting continues | South Ossetians start to evacuate into Russia | ||
August 4 | Intense fighting continues | Intense fighting continues | Possible build up of Russian forces along border with South Ossetia | ||
August 5 to August 6 | Sporadic fighting continues | Sporadic fighting continues |
I just noticed that we have external links to other timelines. I don't know how long we've had them, but regardless I just wanted to say good job to whomever it was that added them.
On another note, some hours ago I added the business about 13 Georgian cities around Abkhazia being taken but forgot to mention it here, so I am now. Christiangoth ( talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I just proposed large changes to the 2008 South Ossetia War main article timeline on the discussion page. Some of you may be interested.
Adjpro ( talk) 06:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Эта война назревала давно, но формальным предлогом послужил подрыв 31 июля на самодельной радиоуправляемой мине машины грузинской полиции на объездной дороге у села Эредви к востоку от Цхинвали. Российские миротворцы успели провести расследование и установить, что были использованы два 122-мм гаубичных снаряда российского образца.
Полицейская «Тойота» была разбита в хлам, пять грузин ранены. Буквально на том же месте 4 июля на подобной же мине была подорвана машина, в которой ехал глава временной прогрузинской администрации Южной Осетии Дмитрий Санакоев. После подрыва машину еще обстреляли, но Санакоев не пострадал, хотя его охранники были ранены. Санакоев был министром обороны в сепаратистском правительстве Южной Осетии, но потом разошелся с Кокойты и перешел на грузинскую сторону с группой преданных ему осетинских боевиков. Кокойты и его сторонники считают Санакоева предателем.
1 августа грузины нанесли ответный удар по осетинским позициям, впервые применив дальнобойные крупнокалиберные винтовки. Не ожидавшие такого сепаратисты понесли заметные потери и в свою очередь ответили минометным обстрелом грузинских сел, что было зафиксировано российскими миротворцами. В последующие дни осетины начали активно провоцировать полномасштабный конфликт, очевидно пытаясь втянуть в него Россию, что им в конце концов вполне удалось.
In English:
..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used.
The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor.
On the 1st of August the Georgians struck back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
These details could be combined with the details from an article kindly pointed out at the Ossetia war talk page: The new cold war hots up \ Times Online. I quote:
The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely. That night Georgian forces struck back. There was a furious firefight that left six South Ossetian rebels dead.
The two articles disagree a little on dating: 31st against the 1st and two bombs against one made of two shells; the second article tells additionally that six Ossetians were killed. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The tensions have been escalating throuth the year of 2008, but the countdown to the open hostilites starts with a bombing of a Georgian police car near the Eredvi village east of Tskhinvali, with five policemen wounded by the blast. According to one source, the bombing happened on the 31nd of July,[1] another names the date of August the 1st.[2] A chain of reactions and counter-reactions followed.
There should be more links to www.civil.ge to balance other media articles. There are many news items there covering the whole conflict and suprisingly including statements from both side. Currently, most of the links here are to Russian media and their position has been always denying their role or only acusing Georgian side. In my view this page is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.23.223.136 ( talk) 18:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This map:
Shows that the Russians bombed the BTC pipeline but there is no solid evidence of this. Were it true we would be hearing it much more in the news. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 23:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
There are a couple of citations necessary and missing for August 18. I don't know where the information being stated in the article can be found. Also, one sentence stating that "the situation was the same in Western Georgia" is inappropriately vague and should be expanded upon substantially. Christiangoth ( talk) 23:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Here’s a synopsis of the NATO meeting I found on the NATO site: http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/08-august/e0819a.html. I thought y’all might be interested in what NATO was releasing about this event. It contains official quotes and statements that could be used in the August 19 section Jason3777 ( talk) 18:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Good work. Thanks! Christiangoth ( talk) 21:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The only item currently listed for today is that Russia has left Poti. The cited article only states that an official from the port of Poti stated that Russian forces have left. This is an important distinction, especially because other articles state that Russian forces are still in Poti, and are digging in: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GEORGIA_RUSSIA?SITE=TXDAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT , http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia . I am adjusting the entry for August 21 accordingly. Christiangoth ( talk) 22:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm still wondering whether this change by Revad1 was a good one: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232995543 It deleted the sentence "However, South Ossetia denied attacking the villages." There was no reference to this statement. So maybe it's not true that S.O. denied. And maybe it's not important and could be deleted because of that. Maybe it's likely that the attacks happen. But if the Kokoity denied those attacks I think for me, I'd like the statement of S.O. denying the attack in this paragraph (provided there is a reference for that).
I've asked User_talk:Revad1 4 days ago why he made the change, but he hasn't answered yet.
-- JanCK ( talk) 17:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
European observers are saying that Georgia made elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia [1] [2] [3]-- Rjecina ( talk) 21:38, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only Georgian sources claim that parts of 58th Army moved to the Georgian territory first on August 6-7. Some Russian sources claim exactly the same:
So, it was Russian regular army that crossed Georgian border first, and Georgian forces actually counter-attacked. Latynina then discussed if this counterattack was justified from a military perspective, but this part is more an opinion piece. Biophys ( talk) 02:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Однако вовсе не этот случай обессмертил имя Сидристого. А всего лишь полторы строчки из его монолога: "7 августа пришла команда на выдвижение к Цхинвалу. Подняли нас по тревоге – и на марш". То есть 7 августа, примерно в те часы, когда президент Саакашвили вероломно объявлял о прекращении перестрелок, 135-й мотострелковый полк российской 58-й армии Северо-Кавказского военного округа входил в Южную Осетию. А в ночь с 7 на 8 августа, как всем известно, грузинский президент начал операцию "Геноцид".
В Кремле и в Генштабе ВС РФ точно знали сроки начала военной операции в Южной Осетии. Из своих эксклюзивных источников, которые прошляпила грузинская контрразведка. Ждали войны как манны небесной. Быть может, по каким-то своим каналам запустили дезу грузинскому руководству: у него развязаны руки, российская армия к отражению удара не готова. Военные самолеты, как в июле, "дабы охладить горячие головы", над Цхинвали тоже никто не запускал. Головы нужны были горячими. Более того: своих солдат ни о чем не предупредили, чтобы не произошло утечки. "Прибыли, разместились, – свидетельствует капитан Сидристый, – а уже 8 августа там полыхнуло с такой силой, что многие даже растерялись".
С блеском осуществленный план заключался в том, чтобы дать возможность Саакашвили совершить любые военные преступления, какие он только успеет совершить за сутки. Позволить ему обстрелять из "Града" спящий город. Заманить его танки в Цхинвали. И лишь потом выбить их оттуда, демонстрируя миру фашизм в тигровой шкуре, в его современном грузинском обличье. (Вообще получилось как с тобой тигрицей: ее выпустили побегать на воле, а в кустах сидел Путин с ружьем...) И, погнав армию Саакашвили до Гори и Тбилиси, с чувством глубочайшей внутренней правоты признать независимость Южной Осетии и Абхазии.
And so on. Biophys ( talk) 15:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Note: I have posted the article as a separate entry for the future reference. WH Coordinator ( talk) 02:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
We were doing exercises,” captain Sidristy’s story starts. “This was relatively close to the capital of South Ossetia. Nizhny Zaramakh is a wilderness area in North Ossetia. We made camp there after our scheduled exercises, but on August 7th, the order came to move out towards Tskhinvali. We were raised to a state of alarm, and went on the march. We arrived, settled in, and already on August 8th the fire came down with such force that many even lost their bearings. No, everyone understood that Georgia was preparing something, but it was hard to even imagine what we saw. Immediately after midnight, a massive shelling of the city and peacekeeping positions was started. They hit it from all types of weapons, including artillery rocket systems.”
Analysis
1.The regiment, which is permanently posted in the township of Prokhladny, close to Nalchik, [Kabardino-Balkar Republic], after finishing its exercises (August 2nd), was stationed to Nizhny Zaramag.
2.Nizhny Zaramag is located several kilometers from the northern entrance of the Roki tunnel, and a border station and customs office is located in this town.
3.On August 7th, the regiment received the order to move out toward Tskhinvali, was raised to a state of alarm, and before the end of the day, managed to arrive to its objective destination.
4.After midnight, the lights of the bombardment of Tskhinvali could be seen from the regiment’s position.
5.The site of the regiment’s position is not specified, but it is evident that the regiment passed through the Roki tunnel. Since:
6.Going on the basis of the words, “we arrived, settled in,” one can draw the conclusion that the column did not as yet spend the night by the side of the road, but unloaded in a place where it was possible to provide the military personnel with food and a night’s rest.
7.Between the Roki tunnel and Tskhinvali, there is only one such place: Java.
Conclusion: the 135th motorized rifle regiment entered the territory of South Ossetia before the start of Georgia’s attack on Tskhinvali. Biophys ( talk) 21:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Выводы участника Biophys, как минимум, весьма поспешны; я бы сказал, что попросту неверны. На основании двух подозрительных заметок нельзя делать такие сильные выводы. Утверждение на сайте permnews.ru выглядит сомнительно:
У меня очень мало времени, – продолжал мальчишка. – Слушай: мы там с 7 августа. Ну, вся наша 58-я армия. Ты же, наверное, смотришь по телику, что там происходит? Сегодня мы пробились из Цхинвала во Владикавказ за вооружением. Сейчас будем обратно пробиваться. Всё, зовут. Передавай всем привет. Целую… ( http://www.permnews.ru/story.asp?kt=2912&n=453)
Вся 58-я армия?! 70 тыс. человек и 600 танков были уже 7 августа в Цхинвале? :) Это смешно. Что за странная фраза "мы пробились из Цхинвала во Владикавказ за вооружением"? Это еще смешнее. Они прибыли в Цхинвал без вооружения, а потом вспомнили, что забыли, и вернулись за ним? :) -- Esp rus2 ( talk) 09:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Утверждение из удалённой статьи в redstar.ru противоречит другим материалам того же сайта. Речь идёт о 135-мотострелковом полке (по словам Сидристого). Читаем в других статьях:
Для младшего сержанта Андрея Савельева и рядовых Евгения Букалерова и Ростислава Барыбина - нынешних кавалеров знака отличия - Георгиевского креста IV степени - отсчет тревожным суткам начался 8 августа. Тогда их роту связи 135-го мотострелкового полка вместе с другими подразделениями подняли ночью по тревоге и выдвинули в Цхинвал на помощь нашим миротворцам, зажатым под ураганным огнем грузинских агрессоров. ( http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/03_09/2_02.html)
Лейтенанта Михаила Мельничука, несмотря на его молодость и пока еще невысокое офицерское звание, язык не повернется сегодня назвать необстрелянным командиром. Того, что пережили он и его сослуживцы по 135-му мотострелковому полку 58-й армии в эти августовские дни, хватит, пожалуй, на десяток офицеров, не нюхавших пороха. <...> Минометный обстрел колонны их мотострелкового батальона первыми накрыл следовавшие в голове группы машины 3-й роты. Батальон как раз втягивался на окраины Цхинвала, когда грузинские мины поразили головные БМП и следовавший в них личный состав. Появились первые убитые, раненые. <...> Задачу - дойти до городка миротворцев и разблокировать наши подразделения, зажатые под огнем грузинских формирований, - необходимо было выполнить. До расположения миротворческого подразделения оставалось каких-то пару кварталов, когда на одном из перекрестков колонну мотострелков грузины встретили массированным огнем из стрелкового оружия и гранатометов. Стрельба велась из окон домов, из различных приспособленных укрытий, из-за разрушенных стен. Было принято решение спешиться и атаковать противника, продвигаясь к городку миротворцев. ( http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/09_09/2_01.html)
Следует принять во внимание эти публикации. -- Esp rus2 ( talk) 09:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Soon after, Ingush, Chechen, Cossack and Ossetian irregulars are believed to have arrived in South Ossetia from Russia. [6]. " Michael Totten interview with Patrick Worms." August 26 2008
Тем временем (night from August 6th to 7th) в Южную Осетию уже прибыли около 300 добровольцев из Северной Осетии. Biophys ( talk) 03:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following wording for the disputed sentence
Russian media [1] reported soldiers of the 58th Army claiming to have arrived in South Ossetia on August 7. Other reports in Russian Media [2] [3] [4] [5] were consistent with parts of 58th Russian Army having passed the Roki Tunnel, and having arrived to South Ossetia on August 7.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008. A Russian soldier called home: "We moved there [to South Ossetia] on August 7. All of our 58th army."
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian soldier in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Yulia Latynina, Differences in opinion between Mr. Bastrykin and the Prosecutor office of South Ossetia, "Daily Journal", September 11, 2008, "Before the war, on August 6, journalists who were sent in advance to cover the war... reported that they have seen 58th Army on the other [Georgian] side of the Roky tunnel" .
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
other then Finalyzer's WP:POV on polit.ru making a mistake this should be ok. WH Coordinator ( talk) 00:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
We should be more accurate in using the message from News of Perm:
News of Perm claims that one Russian soldier calls to mother and said: "we are there from August 7. All our 58th Army" [1] Some Russian media used this message in their articles [2] [3]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
-- Esp rus2 ( talk) 21:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's be really accurate about the primary sources first...
Article at News of Perm newspaper dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 mother got call from his son who serves in army. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper dated September 3 [2] reports about story of wounded Russian captain who serves at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city next day and that Russian tanks already went into city. The article has been pulled out from the newspaper website sometime at September 2008. Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [3] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [4] According to the The New York Times investigation [5] Krasnaya Zvezda published an article on September 12 in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was August 8. Also, the investigation reports about intercepted cellphone records provided by Georgia which according to Georgian side were recorded on August 7 morning and provide evidence that some parts of the 135th Regiment moved through the Roki tunnel that morning.
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
Finalyzer ( talk) 23:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
And let's just hope that the soldier will not be court-martialled for the phone call that reveals army plans and disposition... Finalyzer ( talk) 23:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
how about this:
An article on News of Perm site dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 a mother of a russian soldier, got call from her son. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda, an official publication by a by Russian Ministry of Defence, dated September 3 [2] reported a story of a wounded Russian captain who served at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city next day and that Russian tanks already went into city. After the initial publication it was picked up by the numerous blogs [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8], as it seemed to have implied that 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army entered the South Ossetia early on August 7. According to the The New York Times investigation [9] Krasnaya Zvezda published an article on September 12 in which they said "... On Sept. 3, Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Defense Ministry, published an article in which a captain in the 135th Regiment, Denis Sidristy, said his unit had been ordered to cease a training exercise and move to Tskhinvali on Aug. 7. After a query by The Times about the article, the Russian newspaper published an article last Friday in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was Aug. 8. Efforts to reach Captain Sidristy were unsuccessful.". On September 13 the article has been removed from Red Star, which was interpreted [10] [11] as a confirmation of Russian incursion into South Ossetia August 7.
Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [12] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [13]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ СМИ: российские войска вошли в Южную Осетию еще до начала боевых действий Media: Russian Military entered South Ossetia before military actions began
- ^ Солдаты говорят, что прибыли в Южную Осетию еще 7 августа Soldiers say they arrived to South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Правда все равно вылезает - особенно в эпоху Инета... The Truth Comes Out Anyway, Especially in the Era of E-net
- ^ Издержки редактуры Editorial Expences
- ^ ПутСМИ опять облажались Put-Media messed up again
- ^ Русия първа е нападнала Грузия Russia First Attacked Georgia
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
- ^ Вопрос времени - Илья Мильштейн Matter of Timing by Iliya Milshtein
- ^ «Красная звезда» вообще удалила материал разоблачивший «гостайну» Red Star has removed the material revealing "state secret"
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
WH Coordinator ( talk) 01:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
So, as a compromise I would leave two more or less solid sources that provide point of views on the articles, as I've suggested before.
An article on News of Perm site dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 a mother of a russian soldier, got call from her son. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda, an official publication by a by Russian Ministry of Defence, dated September 3 [2] reported a story of Denis Sidristy, wounded Russian captain who served at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city on the next day and that Russian tanks already went into the city. On September 12, Krasnaya Zvezda published an article about Remembrance Day at the quarters of 135th Regiment [3] . Article reports that Denis Sidristy said that his unit advanced to Tskhinvali on August 8 to help Russian peacekeepers which have been attacked by Georgian forces. According to the The New York Times investigation [4] "... On Sept. 3, Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Defense Ministry, published an article in which a captain in the 135th Regiment, Denis Sidristy, said his unit had been ordered to cease a training exercise and move to Tskhinvali on Aug. 7. After a query by The Times about the article, the Russian newspaper published an article last Friday in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was Aug. 8. Efforts to reach Captain Sidristy were unsuccessful.". On September 13 the article has been removed from Red Star. Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [5] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [6]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Remembering the heroes, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 12, 2008
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
But Remembering the heroes is irrelevant to what happened to what happened on August 7, why do you want it in? WH Coordinator ( talk) 06:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Russian media [1] reported soldiers of the 58th Army claiming to have arrived in South Ossetia on August 7. Other reports in Russian Media [2] [3] [4] [5] were consistent with parts of 58th Russian Army having passed the Roki Tunnel, and having arrived to South Ossetia on August 7.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008. A Russian soldier called home: "We moved there [to South Ossetia] on August 7. All of our 58th army."
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian soldier in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Yulia Latynina, Differences in opinion between Mr. Bastrykin and the Prosecutor office of South Ossetia, "Daily Journal", September 11, 2008, "Before the war, on August 6, journalists who were sent in advance to cover the war... reported that they have seen 58th Army on the other [Georgian] side of the Roky tunnel" .
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
WH Coordinator ( talk) 16:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
That's what I propose:
According to the The New York Times investigation Georgia provided intercepted cellphone records which according to Georgian side were recorded on August 7 morning and provide evidence that some parts of 135th Regiment of 58th Russian Army moved through the Roki tunnel that morning. The regiment is a supplier of Russian peacekeepers at the region. Western intelligence determined independently that two battalions of the 135th Regiment moved through the tunnel to South Ossetia either on the night of August 7 or the early morning of August 8, according to a senior American official. General Uvarov, the senior Russian official, said that as the Georgians began their attack, about 100 reserve peacekeepers from the 135th Regiment were put on alert and moved close to the tunnel. They were ordered through the tunnel to reinforce forces in Tskhinvali around dawn on August 8 [1].
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
And if somebody wants to promote Russian media rumors, we can create separate wiki page and put link to it. Finalyzer ( talk) 17:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody please explain if Russian soldiers have entered South Ossetia before 8 August why in UN on 8 August in 16:15 Georgia is claiming that Russian soldiers have entered South Ossetia on 8 August in 05:30 [7]. Now is possible to "find" many "sources" which are saying different but nobody can delete this Georgian official statement before UN. -- Rjecina ( talk) 16:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This article, written on August 8 by Vladimir Socor is used 4 times as a source here. In one case it seems to contradict more authoritative sources that were published later when more information become available:
“ | Following Saakashvili’s address, according to Jamestown Foundation report [14][verification needed], attacks on Georgian villages intensified. The village of Avnevi was almost completely destroyed, Tamarasheni and Prisi shelled, and the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, smashed by artillery fire. | ” |
On the other hand:
“ | An OSCE monitoring group in Tskhinvali did not record outgoing artillery fire from the South Ossetian side in the hours before the start of Georgian bombardment, [1] [2] and NATO officials attest to minor skirmishes but nothing that amounted to a provocation, according to Der Spiegel. [3] | ” |
Therefore I think that an additional source should be found to confirm that a) attacks by S Ossetians intensified after Saakashvili's address and b) that "the village of Avnevi was almost completely destroyed, Tamarasheni and Prisi shelled, and the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, smashed by artillery fire." Alæxis ¿question? 19:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
References
This source, http://www.swp-berlin.org/common/get_document.php?asset_id=5524, has compiled a very detailed timeline which could be useful here. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
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er.. am shifting as promised when i created a new article from this page so thats my argument for using 'hang on' to annul the hasty delete sign Cityvalyu ( talk) 00:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
When Cityvalyu created this article (or rather moved it from 2008 Indian Floods), he left multiple broken references which still need to be fixed. Superm401 - Talk 05:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
The BBC news channel is reporting on the Russian armoured convoy that left Gori along the highway in the direction of Tblisi. It pulled off the highway and the BBC is showing pictures of it deploying around a ethnic South Ossetian village in Georgian territory between Gori and Tblisi. A small Georgian detachment was seen leaving Tblisi in the direction of the village.
Russian troops have returned to Poti and are reportedly sinking Georgian ships moored in the harbour. 86.143.189.22 ( talk) 15:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
As I understand Wiki policy, the first reference to a Wiki linkable subject should be the only one linked in the article. But there are multiple CNN links on this page under different dates (one of them I linked). I also noticed names were multiply internally linked. Should we do additional links for each date, or just one per article. It is a long article.... Jason3777 ( talk) 03:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've added an entry for August 14 with a link to some info of a reporter in the Area.
I'll translate what the article says about Russian tanks/cars in Gori. http://deredactie.be/cm/de.redactie/buitenland/080814_havens_Georgie "Pal op de invalsweg naar Gori staan drie Russische pantserwagens", meldt Blommaert. "Daarnaast in het struikgewas zijn er nog enkele tanks gestationeerd en verderop liggen er hier en daar sluipschutters."
"Directly on the/a (major) road to Gori are 3 Russian Armored cars", Blommaert says. "Closeby in the bushes are some tanks positioned and a bit further away there are snipers here and there."
It's a crude but accurate translation.
BTW, I'm a noob at Wikipedia so excuse my mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.0.8 ( talk) 10:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I fixed the page numbers (one of them was wrong). I was told I needed a media source to show the parts of the transcript I referenced were relevant, so I did the UN ref first, followed by the media relevancy justification. The CNN refs were removed. Please read the speakers intros for the rebukes. I have a 102 F fever today so I can't restore them today. The reference is correct, please post any problems you have concering the page numbers below. It is a valid ref. Also could someone remove the red invalid citation. The text is there. And the CNN (or various other news organization) need to be re-added. I can't do it today because I feel like hell. If anyone could with this today, I would really appreciate it, because I am in no condition today to restore the CNN citations. It is a valid cite. Thanks Jason3777 ( talk) 20:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was not at my best yesterday, the big red citation freaked me out because I knew I was in no condition to fix it. Thank you, DuncanHill, for fixing that so quickly, I do appreciate it. And whoever reorganized the section by putting it in chronological order, added appropriate links and wrote the opening paragraph did a great job. Wikipedia is pretty awesome. I apologize for going off yesterday. Thank y'all, Jason3777 ( talk) 23:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
References
I feel that if the title says "Ceasefire Violated", there should at least be some mention of how the ceasefire was violated and explain it. How is someone supposed to know how it was violated if it doesn't even say. 24.46.123.59 ( talk) 20:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I've cut the following as non reavlent to a timeline article about the current war and pasted it here so it could be easier moved to a more approative article (Russian-Polish relations?) "Russian General Anatoly Nogovitsyn was quoted by the Interfax News Agency as saying that by accepting a US missile battery Poland "is exposing itself to a strike". [1]" Jon ( talk) 18:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
References
"All previous talks about damaged town and marauding is not correspond to reality"
Shouldn't it be corresponding?-- GoldenMew ( talk) 19:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Rather awkward regardless, but "All previous talk about a damaged town and marauding does not correspond to reality" is correct. Plural of collective noun -- talk, to be replacing to do verb, missing artcle ("a"). Yes, a translation by a non-native speaker.
Is it worth creating a table which summarizes events. In have started the one below, but clearly it needs much more work. Greenshed ( talk) 20:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Date | General Situation | South Ossetia | Abkhazia | Russia Including North Ossetia-Alania |
Georgia Excluding South Ossetia and Abkhazia |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
August 1 to August 2 | Intense fighting commences in South Ossetia | Intense fighting between Georgian troops and paramilitary soldiers of South Ossetia | |||
August 3 | Intense fighting continues, South Ossetian refugees enter Russia | Intense fighting continues | South Ossetians start to evacuate into Russia | ||
August 4 | Intense fighting continues | Intense fighting continues | Possible build up of Russian forces along border with South Ossetia | ||
August 5 to August 6 | Sporadic fighting continues | Sporadic fighting continues |
I just noticed that we have external links to other timelines. I don't know how long we've had them, but regardless I just wanted to say good job to whomever it was that added them.
On another note, some hours ago I added the business about 13 Georgian cities around Abkhazia being taken but forgot to mention it here, so I am now. Christiangoth ( talk) 05:54, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I just proposed large changes to the 2008 South Ossetia War main article timeline on the discussion page. Some of you may be interested.
Adjpro ( talk) 06:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Эта война назревала давно, но формальным предлогом послужил подрыв 31 июля на самодельной радиоуправляемой мине машины грузинской полиции на объездной дороге у села Эредви к востоку от Цхинвали. Российские миротворцы успели провести расследование и установить, что были использованы два 122-мм гаубичных снаряда российского образца.
Полицейская «Тойота» была разбита в хлам, пять грузин ранены. Буквально на том же месте 4 июля на подобной же мине была подорвана машина, в которой ехал глава временной прогрузинской администрации Южной Осетии Дмитрий Санакоев. После подрыва машину еще обстреляли, но Санакоев не пострадал, хотя его охранники были ранены. Санакоев был министром обороны в сепаратистском правительстве Южной Осетии, но потом разошелся с Кокойты и перешел на грузинскую сторону с группой преданных ему осетинских боевиков. Кокойты и его сторонники считают Санакоева предателем.
1 августа грузины нанесли ответный удар по осетинским позициям, впервые применив дальнобойные крупнокалиберные винтовки. Не ожидавшие такого сепаратисты понесли заметные потери и в свою очередь ответили минометным обстрелом грузинских сел, что было зафиксировано российскими миротворцами. В последующие дни осетины начали активно провоцировать полномасштабный конфликт, очевидно пытаясь втянуть в него Россию, что им в конце концов вполне удалось.
In English:
..This war was brewing up for a long time, but one incident served as a formal pretext. On the 31th of July, a Georgian police car was blasted using a self-made remotely controlled device on a detour road near the Eredvi village to the east of Tskhinvali. Russian peacekeepers had time to carry out an investigation and found that two 122 mm Russian-type howitzer shells were used.
The policemen's Toyota was totally wrecked, and five Geogrians were injured. Just at the same spot, but on the 4th of July that year, similar explosive was used to destroy a car that carried the head of the provisional pro-Georgian administration of South Ossetia Dmitry Sanakoyev. After the blast the car was fired upon, but Sanakoyev came out unscathed though his bodyguards were wounded. Sanakoyev had been a minister of defence in the separatist government of South Ossetia, but later broke up from Kokoyti and passed to the Georgian side with a group of his Ossetian militant followers. Kokoyti and his supporters consider Sanakoev a traitor.
On the 1st of August the Georgians struck back and fired at Ossetian positions, for the first time using long-range big-caliber rifles. The separatists didn't expect such an attack and suffered noticeable losses, replying with a mortar fire directed at Georgian villages, and this fact was noted by the Russian peacekeepers. In the following days the Ossetians started an active provocation campaign, apparently aiming to bring on the full-blown conflict and draw in the Russians, and in this they funally succeded. ..
These details could be combined with the details from an article kindly pointed out at the Ossetia war talk page: The new cold war hots up \ Times Online. I quote:
The US State Department’s internal timeline of the crisis pinpoints the explosion on August 1 of two roadside bombs, believed to have been planted by South Ossetian separatists sympathetic to Russia, as a decisive moment. Five Georgian policemen were injured, one severely. That night Georgian forces struck back. There was a furious firefight that left six South Ossetian rebels dead.
The two articles disagree a little on dating: 31st against the 1st and two bombs against one made of two shells; the second article tells additionally that six Ossetians were killed. -- CopperKettle ( talk) 21:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The tensions have been escalating throuth the year of 2008, but the countdown to the open hostilites starts with a bombing of a Georgian police car near the Eredvi village east of Tskhinvali, with five policemen wounded by the blast. According to one source, the bombing happened on the 31nd of July,[1] another names the date of August the 1st.[2] A chain of reactions and counter-reactions followed.
There should be more links to www.civil.ge to balance other media articles. There are many news items there covering the whole conflict and suprisingly including statements from both side. Currently, most of the links here are to Russian media and their position has been always denying their role or only acusing Georgian side. In my view this page is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.23.223.136 ( talk) 18:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
This map:
Shows that the Russians bombed the BTC pipeline but there is no solid evidence of this. Were it true we would be hearing it much more in the news. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 23:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
There are a couple of citations necessary and missing for August 18. I don't know where the information being stated in the article can be found. Also, one sentence stating that "the situation was the same in Western Georgia" is inappropriately vague and should be expanded upon substantially. Christiangoth ( talk) 23:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Here’s a synopsis of the NATO meeting I found on the NATO site: http://www.nato.int/docu/update/2008/08-august/e0819a.html. I thought y’all might be interested in what NATO was releasing about this event. It contains official quotes and statements that could be used in the August 19 section Jason3777 ( talk) 18:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Good work. Thanks! Christiangoth ( talk) 21:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The only item currently listed for today is that Russia has left Poti. The cited article only states that an official from the port of Poti stated that Russian forces have left. This is an important distinction, especially because other articles state that Russian forces are still in Poti, and are digging in: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GEORGIA_RUSSIA?SITE=TXDAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT , http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia . I am adjusting the entry for August 21 accordingly. Christiangoth ( talk) 22:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm still wondering whether this change by Revad1 was a good one: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_the_2008_South_Ossetia_war&diff=prev&oldid=232995543 It deleted the sentence "However, South Ossetia denied attacking the villages." There was no reference to this statement. So maybe it's not true that S.O. denied. And maybe it's not important and could be deleted because of that. Maybe it's likely that the attacks happen. But if the Kokoity denied those attacks I think for me, I'd like the statement of S.O. denying the attack in this paragraph (provided there is a reference for that).
I've asked User_talk:Revad1 4 days ago why he made the change, but he hasn't answered yet.
-- JanCK ( talk) 17:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
European observers are saying that Georgia made elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia [1] [2] [3]-- Rjecina ( talk) 21:38, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Not only Georgian sources claim that parts of 58th Army moved to the Georgian territory first on August 6-7. Some Russian sources claim exactly the same:
So, it was Russian regular army that crossed Georgian border first, and Georgian forces actually counter-attacked. Latynina then discussed if this counterattack was justified from a military perspective, but this part is more an opinion piece. Biophys ( talk) 02:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Однако вовсе не этот случай обессмертил имя Сидристого. А всего лишь полторы строчки из его монолога: "7 августа пришла команда на выдвижение к Цхинвалу. Подняли нас по тревоге – и на марш". То есть 7 августа, примерно в те часы, когда президент Саакашвили вероломно объявлял о прекращении перестрелок, 135-й мотострелковый полк российской 58-й армии Северо-Кавказского военного округа входил в Южную Осетию. А в ночь с 7 на 8 августа, как всем известно, грузинский президент начал операцию "Геноцид".
В Кремле и в Генштабе ВС РФ точно знали сроки начала военной операции в Южной Осетии. Из своих эксклюзивных источников, которые прошляпила грузинская контрразведка. Ждали войны как манны небесной. Быть может, по каким-то своим каналам запустили дезу грузинскому руководству: у него развязаны руки, российская армия к отражению удара не готова. Военные самолеты, как в июле, "дабы охладить горячие головы", над Цхинвали тоже никто не запускал. Головы нужны были горячими. Более того: своих солдат ни о чем не предупредили, чтобы не произошло утечки. "Прибыли, разместились, – свидетельствует капитан Сидристый, – а уже 8 августа там полыхнуло с такой силой, что многие даже растерялись".
С блеском осуществленный план заключался в том, чтобы дать возможность Саакашвили совершить любые военные преступления, какие он только успеет совершить за сутки. Позволить ему обстрелять из "Града" спящий город. Заманить его танки в Цхинвали. И лишь потом выбить их оттуда, демонстрируя миру фашизм в тигровой шкуре, в его современном грузинском обличье. (Вообще получилось как с тобой тигрицей: ее выпустили побегать на воле, а в кустах сидел Путин с ружьем...) И, погнав армию Саакашвили до Гори и Тбилиси, с чувством глубочайшей внутренней правоты признать независимость Южной Осетии и Абхазии.
And so on. Biophys ( talk) 15:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Note: I have posted the article as a separate entry for the future reference. WH Coordinator ( talk) 02:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
We were doing exercises,” captain Sidristy’s story starts. “This was relatively close to the capital of South Ossetia. Nizhny Zaramakh is a wilderness area in North Ossetia. We made camp there after our scheduled exercises, but on August 7th, the order came to move out towards Tskhinvali. We were raised to a state of alarm, and went on the march. We arrived, settled in, and already on August 8th the fire came down with such force that many even lost their bearings. No, everyone understood that Georgia was preparing something, but it was hard to even imagine what we saw. Immediately after midnight, a massive shelling of the city and peacekeeping positions was started. They hit it from all types of weapons, including artillery rocket systems.”
Analysis
1.The regiment, which is permanently posted in the township of Prokhladny, close to Nalchik, [Kabardino-Balkar Republic], after finishing its exercises (August 2nd), was stationed to Nizhny Zaramag.
2.Nizhny Zaramag is located several kilometers from the northern entrance of the Roki tunnel, and a border station and customs office is located in this town.
3.On August 7th, the regiment received the order to move out toward Tskhinvali, was raised to a state of alarm, and before the end of the day, managed to arrive to its objective destination.
4.After midnight, the lights of the bombardment of Tskhinvali could be seen from the regiment’s position.
5.The site of the regiment’s position is not specified, but it is evident that the regiment passed through the Roki tunnel. Since:
6.Going on the basis of the words, “we arrived, settled in,” one can draw the conclusion that the column did not as yet spend the night by the side of the road, but unloaded in a place where it was possible to provide the military personnel with food and a night’s rest.
7.Between the Roki tunnel and Tskhinvali, there is only one such place: Java.
Conclusion: the 135th motorized rifle regiment entered the territory of South Ossetia before the start of Georgia’s attack on Tskhinvali. Biophys ( talk) 21:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Выводы участника Biophys, как минимум, весьма поспешны; я бы сказал, что попросту неверны. На основании двух подозрительных заметок нельзя делать такие сильные выводы. Утверждение на сайте permnews.ru выглядит сомнительно:
У меня очень мало времени, – продолжал мальчишка. – Слушай: мы там с 7 августа. Ну, вся наша 58-я армия. Ты же, наверное, смотришь по телику, что там происходит? Сегодня мы пробились из Цхинвала во Владикавказ за вооружением. Сейчас будем обратно пробиваться. Всё, зовут. Передавай всем привет. Целую… ( http://www.permnews.ru/story.asp?kt=2912&n=453)
Вся 58-я армия?! 70 тыс. человек и 600 танков были уже 7 августа в Цхинвале? :) Это смешно. Что за странная фраза "мы пробились из Цхинвала во Владикавказ за вооружением"? Это еще смешнее. Они прибыли в Цхинвал без вооружения, а потом вспомнили, что забыли, и вернулись за ним? :) -- Esp rus2 ( talk) 09:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Утверждение из удалённой статьи в redstar.ru противоречит другим материалам того же сайта. Речь идёт о 135-мотострелковом полке (по словам Сидристого). Читаем в других статьях:
Для младшего сержанта Андрея Савельева и рядовых Евгения Букалерова и Ростислава Барыбина - нынешних кавалеров знака отличия - Георгиевского креста IV степени - отсчет тревожным суткам начался 8 августа. Тогда их роту связи 135-го мотострелкового полка вместе с другими подразделениями подняли ночью по тревоге и выдвинули в Цхинвал на помощь нашим миротворцам, зажатым под ураганным огнем грузинских агрессоров. ( http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/03_09/2_02.html)
Лейтенанта Михаила Мельничука, несмотря на его молодость и пока еще невысокое офицерское звание, язык не повернется сегодня назвать необстрелянным командиром. Того, что пережили он и его сослуживцы по 135-му мотострелковому полку 58-й армии в эти августовские дни, хватит, пожалуй, на десяток офицеров, не нюхавших пороха. <...> Минометный обстрел колонны их мотострелкового батальона первыми накрыл следовавшие в голове группы машины 3-й роты. Батальон как раз втягивался на окраины Цхинвала, когда грузинские мины поразили головные БМП и следовавший в них личный состав. Появились первые убитые, раненые. <...> Задачу - дойти до городка миротворцев и разблокировать наши подразделения, зажатые под огнем грузинских формирований, - необходимо было выполнить. До расположения миротворческого подразделения оставалось каких-то пару кварталов, когда на одном из перекрестков колонну мотострелков грузины встретили массированным огнем из стрелкового оружия и гранатометов. Стрельба велась из окон домов, из различных приспособленных укрытий, из-за разрушенных стен. Было принято решение спешиться и атаковать противника, продвигаясь к городку миротворцев. ( http://www.redstar.ru/2008/09/09_09/2_01.html)
Следует принять во внимание эти публикации. -- Esp rus2 ( talk) 09:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Soon after, Ingush, Chechen, Cossack and Ossetian irregulars are believed to have arrived in South Ossetia from Russia. [6]. " Michael Totten interview with Patrick Worms." August 26 2008
Тем временем (night from August 6th to 7th) в Южную Осетию уже прибыли около 300 добровольцев из Северной Осетии. Biophys ( talk) 03:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following wording for the disputed sentence
Russian media [1] reported soldiers of the 58th Army claiming to have arrived in South Ossetia on August 7. Other reports in Russian Media [2] [3] [4] [5] were consistent with parts of 58th Russian Army having passed the Roki Tunnel, and having arrived to South Ossetia on August 7.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008. A Russian soldier called home: "We moved there [to South Ossetia] on August 7. All of our 58th army."
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian soldier in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Yulia Latynina, Differences in opinion between Mr. Bastrykin and the Prosecutor office of South Ossetia, "Daily Journal", September 11, 2008, "Before the war, on August 6, journalists who were sent in advance to cover the war... reported that they have seen 58th Army on the other [Georgian] side of the Roky tunnel" .
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
other then Finalyzer's WP:POV on polit.ru making a mistake this should be ok. WH Coordinator ( talk) 00:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
We should be more accurate in using the message from News of Perm:
News of Perm claims that one Russian soldier calls to mother and said: "we are there from August 7. All our 58th Army" [1] Some Russian media used this message in their articles [2] [3]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
-- Esp rus2 ( talk) 21:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's be really accurate about the primary sources first...
Article at News of Perm newspaper dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 mother got call from his son who serves in army. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper dated September 3 [2] reports about story of wounded Russian captain who serves at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city next day and that Russian tanks already went into city. The article has been pulled out from the newspaper website sometime at September 2008. Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [3] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [4] According to the The New York Times investigation [5] Krasnaya Zvezda published an article on September 12 in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was August 8. Also, the investigation reports about intercepted cellphone records provided by Georgia which according to Georgian side were recorded on August 7 morning and provide evidence that some parts of the 135th Regiment moved through the Roki tunnel that morning.
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
Finalyzer ( talk) 23:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
And let's just hope that the soldier will not be court-martialled for the phone call that reveals army plans and disposition... Finalyzer ( talk) 23:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
how about this:
An article on News of Perm site dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 a mother of a russian soldier, got call from her son. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda, an official publication by a by Russian Ministry of Defence, dated September 3 [2] reported a story of a wounded Russian captain who served at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city next day and that Russian tanks already went into city. After the initial publication it was picked up by the numerous blogs [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8], as it seemed to have implied that 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army entered the South Ossetia early on August 7. According to the The New York Times investigation [9] Krasnaya Zvezda published an article on September 12 in which they said "... On Sept. 3, Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Defense Ministry, published an article in which a captain in the 135th Regiment, Denis Sidristy, said his unit had been ordered to cease a training exercise and move to Tskhinvali on Aug. 7. After a query by The Times about the article, the Russian newspaper published an article last Friday in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was Aug. 8. Efforts to reach Captain Sidristy were unsuccessful.". On September 13 the article has been removed from Red Star, which was interpreted [10] [11] as a confirmation of Russian incursion into South Ossetia August 7.
Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [12] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [13]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ СМИ: российские войска вошли в Южную Осетию еще до начала боевых действий Media: Russian Military entered South Ossetia before military actions began
- ^ Солдаты говорят, что прибыли в Южную Осетию еще 7 августа Soldiers say they arrived to South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Правда все равно вылезает - особенно в эпоху Инета... The Truth Comes Out Anyway, Especially in the Era of E-net
- ^ Издержки редактуры Editorial Expences
- ^ ПутСМИ опять облажались Put-Media messed up again
- ^ Русия първа е нападнала Грузия Russia First Attacked Georgia
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
- ^ Вопрос времени - Илья Мильштейн Matter of Timing by Iliya Milshtein
- ^ «Красная звезда» вообще удалила материал разоблачивший «гостайну» Red Star has removed the material revealing "state secret"
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
WH Coordinator ( talk) 01:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
So, as a compromise I would leave two more or less solid sources that provide point of views on the articles, as I've suggested before.
An article on News of Perm site dated August 8 [1], reports that on August 10 a mother of a russian soldier, got call from her son. She claims that he said that: 1) all 58th army moved to Tshinvali on August 7; 2) they came to Vladikavkaz for arming; 3) they are going back to Tshinvali right now. Another article at Krasnaya Zvezda, an official publication by a by Russian Ministry of Defence, dated September 3 [2] reported a story of Denis Sidristy, wounded Russian captain who served at 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment of 58th army. He said that they got orders to move on the way to Tshinvali on August 7. Also, he claims that he saw bombardment of the city on the next day and that Russian tanks already went into the city. On September 12, Krasnaya Zvezda published an article about Remembrance Day at the quarters of 135th Regiment [3] . Article reports that Denis Sidristy said that his unit advanced to Tskhinvali on August 8 to help Russian peacekeepers which have been attacked by Georgian forces. According to the The New York Times investigation [4] "... On Sept. 3, Krasnaya Zvezda, the official newspaper of the Russian Defense Ministry, published an article in which a captain in the 135th Regiment, Denis Sidristy, said his unit had been ordered to cease a training exercise and move to Tskhinvali on Aug. 7. After a query by The Times about the article, the Russian newspaper published an article last Friday in which the captain said the correct date for the advance to Tskhinvali was Aug. 8. Efforts to reach Captain Sidristy were unsuccessful.". On September 13 the article has been removed from Red Star. Some Russian media used these articles to report that "Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7" [5] or that "Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action" [6]
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008.
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian captain in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Remembering the heroes, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 12, 2008
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
But Remembering the heroes is irrelevant to what happened to what happened on August 7, why do you want it in? WH Coordinator ( talk) 06:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Russian media [1] reported soldiers of the 58th Army claiming to have arrived in South Ossetia on August 7. Other reports in Russian Media [2] [3] [4] [5] were consistent with parts of 58th Russian Army having passed the Roki Tunnel, and having arrived to South Ossetia on August 7.
- ^ polit.ru Soldiers say that they arrived in South Ossetia on August 7
- ^ Soldiers from Perm are in the epicenter of war, News of Perm, 08.08.2008. A Russian soldier called home: "We moved there [to South Ossetia] on August 7. All of our 58th army."
- ^ Life Goes On, Red Star, an official newspaper of Russian Ministry of Defense, September 3, 2008 According to a Russian soldier in a hospital: "We received an emergency order to urgently move to Tskinvali on August 7. We came there, set up everything, and very soon, on August 8, this all started..."
- ^ Yulia Latynina, Differences in opinion between Mr. Bastrykin and the Prosecutor office of South Ossetia, "Daily Journal", September 11, 2008, "Before the war, on August 6, journalists who were sent in advance to cover the war... reported that they have seen 58th Army on the other [Georgian] side of the Roky tunnel" .
- ^ Russian army entered South Ossetia before the beginning of military action NEWSru.com Sept 11, 2008.
WH Coordinator ( talk) 16:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
That's what I propose:
According to the The New York Times investigation Georgia provided intercepted cellphone records which according to Georgian side were recorded on August 7 morning and provide evidence that some parts of 135th Regiment of 58th Russian Army moved through the Roki tunnel that morning. The regiment is a supplier of Russian peacekeepers at the region. Western intelligence determined independently that two battalions of the 135th Regiment moved through the tunnel to South Ossetia either on the night of August 7 or the early morning of August 8, according to a senior American official. General Uvarov, the senior Russian official, said that as the Georgians began their attack, about 100 reserve peacekeepers from the 135th Regiment were put on alert and moved close to the tunnel. They were ordered through the tunnel to reinforce forces in Tskhinvali around dawn on August 8 [1].
- ^ Georgia offers fresh evidence on war's start The New York Times Sept 15, 2008.
And if somebody wants to promote Russian media rumors, we can create separate wiki page and put link to it. Finalyzer ( talk) 17:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Can somebody please explain if Russian soldiers have entered South Ossetia before 8 August why in UN on 8 August in 16:15 Georgia is claiming that Russian soldiers have entered South Ossetia on 8 August in 05:30 [7]. Now is possible to "find" many "sources" which are saying different but nobody can delete this Georgian official statement before UN. -- Rjecina ( talk) 16:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This article, written on August 8 by Vladimir Socor is used 4 times as a source here. In one case it seems to contradict more authoritative sources that were published later when more information become available:
“ | Following Saakashvili’s address, according to Jamestown Foundation report [14][verification needed], attacks on Georgian villages intensified. The village of Avnevi was almost completely destroyed, Tamarasheni and Prisi shelled, and the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, smashed by artillery fire. | ” |
On the other hand:
“ | An OSCE monitoring group in Tskhinvali did not record outgoing artillery fire from the South Ossetian side in the hours before the start of Georgian bombardment, [1] [2] and NATO officials attest to minor skirmishes but nothing that amounted to a provocation, according to Der Spiegel. [3] | ” |
Therefore I think that an additional source should be found to confirm that a) attacks by S Ossetians intensified after Saakashvili's address and b) that "the village of Avnevi was almost completely destroyed, Tamarasheni and Prisi shelled, and the police station in Kurta, seat of the Sanakoyev administration, smashed by artillery fire." Alæxis ¿question? 19:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
References
This source, http://www.swp-berlin.org/common/get_document.php?asset_id=5524, has compiled a very detailed timeline which could be useful here. -- Xeeron ( talk) 16:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
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