![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does the trivia stuff about the game belong in this article? It does not look encyclopedic to me. Leibniz 14:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Also, by "Apsu (or Abzu) fathered upon Tiamat the heavens and the earth" does that mean Apsu and Tiamat procreated? I have trouble construing its meaning - it sounds like a euphanism, almost. -- 220.237.205.227 05:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added a disambiguation page, as the two lines at the top were kind of crowded, and it made a good place to mention the alleged ancient astronomy claim. Since the alleged reference isn't what this article is about, listing it on the disambig page was more appropriate and should satify anyone who claims to be worried about POV. DreamGuy 20:19, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
I have read the story, and didn't some other gods beg her to help them fight the other gods? They brought up the death of her husband and son, and said that she was powerful enough to help them overcome the ruling gods. And so she made an army of monsters but lost anyways. The article just simply stated that she was angry.
And this is completely random and my POV, but does anyone else feel sorry for Tiamat? I mean, She seemed more reasonable than her husband and son, and the younger gods were being bothersome, and the new rule seemed harsh. The rebellion was just, and they almost made it but then the powerful son of that whatever just creamed ther armies with his magic. I feel sorry for Tiamat. :( Blueaster 18:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with the assertion that Tiamat is a "Sumerian" goddess as all the references I've seen to her (eg: Dalley - Myths from Mesopotamia, Black & Green - Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia) have been from the Babylonian Epic of Creation, and no Sumerian source (such as those from Samuel Noah Kramer) include her as Sumerian.
Similarly, the Enki reference should be changed to Ea only. Enki was a Sumerian deity, Ea is the form that shows up in the Enuma Elish. This would be like calling Mars "Ares" - they're similar, but distinctly different.
Finally, I have found no reference for Anu as being the original hero in the Tiamat slaying myth. Where does that come from?
Chris.s 21:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The epic of creation was written by the Sumerians first, khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
then the Mesopotamians copied it khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
and changed the supreme deity Anu to Marduk. khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
When the nefilim and anunnaki first came to earth roughly 450,000 years ago khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
Anu was the sepreme deity, then after Anu retired Marduk took his place. Ea and Enki are both the same deity, there are 5 of 12 sumerian deitys that have 2 names Ea/Enki, Nanna/Sin, Utu/Shamash, Ishkur/Adad & Inanna/Ishtar. khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
Here is a link to the sumerian epic of creation (Enuma Elish) http://www.halexandria.org/dward179.htm
khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
According to the disambiguation page for Tiamat, the five-headed dragon in D&D is "based loosely upon the mythological figure (which did not have five heads)".
But on the Tiamat page, there seems to be no info about her appearance. Was she a dragon with one head, or what was she? If this information is known at all, then someone please add it to the article. (And if nothing is known about her appearance, maybe the article ought to state so.)
I have no clue myself (as I know little of the mythology in question), but I am sure that there are people here who know far more than I. Please help. SpectrumDT 21:05, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
please read the second version of this [
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm enuma elish] text, control-F to search for Dragon -- "Who was the dragon... ?
Tiamat was the dragon....."
"Who will go and slay the dragon,"
And deliver the broad land from...
And become king over... ?
" Go, Tishu, slav the dragon,.."
" Stir up cloud, and storm and tempest! The seal of thy life shalt thou set before thy face, Thou shalt grasp it, and thou shalt slay the dragon." He stirred up cloud, and storm and tempest, He set the seal of his life before his face, He grasped it, and he slew the dragon. For three years and three months, one day and one night The blood of the dragon flowed. ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaanussilla ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not a big deal to me, fella. The most I'm claiming is that a number of current specialists in the field even now consider that the cylinder seal in question may portray Tiamat, probably portrays Tiamat, or does portray Tiamat. I am not claiming that she was most often depicted as a serpentine or dragon-like creature. If my claim is wrong (specified above), big f***ing deal. I am not even claiming myself that that creature is necessarily Tiamat; it might even be Enki for all anyone knows, who was at times a vehicle of Marduk. Or it could just be one of Tiamat's spawn. Different interpretations there may well be, but at least three books:
As well as this link:
indicate that the serpentine monster in the cylinder seal either probably is Tiamat, or is Tiamat. In the meanwhile, no references have been provided for this particular seal (the same cylinder seal in all cases) by the other party. It is a well-known seal. I'm sure that a self-styled eclectic scholar should at least know of it, and better yet have the most up-to-date references on its interpretation. Alexander 007 08:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The Sumerian name Tiamat probably is of Malayo-Polynesian origin. Malayo-Polynesian was the language of an ancient seafaring people who sailed the Pacific and Indian oceans, and even settled the island of Madagascar near Africa. In some Malayo-Polynesian languages spoken in the Philippines, Indonesia, and Madagascar, the words dayat or dagat, which mean the salt-water "sea" or "ocean," appear to have a word correspondence, in both sound and meaning, to the Sumerian name Tiamat, who is known as a goddess of the salt-water sea or ocean. The Sumerian god/goddess Tiamat is probably just the salt-water sea or ocean deified.
Sincerely, Alexandra Belaire —This unsigned comment was added by 70.29.62.127 ( talk • contribs) .
The disambiguation page this article is linked to is a mess. Red links, tons of referances all to the same concept of the D&D Tiamat appearing in other video games as a dragon; these need to be on the Tiamat page. Clearly all roleplaying referances stem from the D&D version. They are multiheaded, evil dragons. This kind of information genrally appears as an "In popular culture" or in literature" sort of section. Why it is on a disambiguation page is beyond me. Mrwuggs 18:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
To me, this page is a test case for WP: is it possible to have an article on Tiamat, or will it drown in crackpot theories and gamecruft? There is a struggle every few months. Leibniz 21:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain what "earlier sources" associate Tiamat with Lotan? Obviously this statement needs to be sourced with at least one of them. Mrwuggs 21:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There is an alternative West Semitic Etymology that may help explain why Tiamat was described as Serpentine. In the fragmentary myth of "Astarte and the Tribute of the Sea" there is mention of "Ta-yam-t", which seems to be a reference to a female (*-t, feminine terminator) serpent (*Ta, *Tan) of the Sea (*Yam). If this etymology is correct, it would explain the connection between Tiamat and Lo-tan (Leviathan?), and the veiled hint at Tiamat, which many Biblical scholars see as a reference to Tehwom (=the Deeps), as a cognate for "Tiamat". Certainly the link between Tiamat and Tehwom/Tehom (See Catherine Keller at [4] needs to be included, as it is often pointed to by conventional Biblical scholars. John D. Croft 16:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Interested in others thoughts.
She flat out is not. She gave birth to monsters, but she is a goddess. Please do not revert the clarification of this fact in the first paragraph. Mrwuggs 18:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Your ideas of a "normal godlike form" seem to be skewed to the Judeo-Christian view of "man in god's image." Ganesha has also been viewed as a monster by people with this closeminded viewpoint. Also, her primary archtype is that of the mother, and as the defender of her children and mate. The role of "monster" only arose once she was demonized. People do not worship monsters. Tiamat was considered holy and a goddess, worshiped in temples. She was the co-creator of the world. I don't think one can even argue with the clear fact that she is a legitamate diety. Mrwuggs 15:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It is about time we came to a final decision on this argument. I think it has been made clear that Tiamat is not a monster, and no one has stepped forward to challange the argument above. Unless someone wishes to continue to defend her monsterousness dispite the fact that this is clearly grounded in ignorance of her primary archtype and influanced by Judeo-Christian bias, I think we should make the appropriate edit and consider this arguement closed. If someone wishes to make a reasonable arguement backed by research and actual unbiased anthropological findings, the time is now. If no one can do this, this discussion will be archived and the changes made in two weeks. Mrwuggs 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed this debate, in which no one has cited any specific sources. I note that recent edits to the article indicate this issue is still in dispute. Thing is, it's somewhat silly, because Tiamat is both a monster and a goddess. There's no reason to see these things as mutually exclusive. Let me supply a few quotes.
Neil Forsyth, The Old Enemy (Princeton University Press, 1987), pp. 49-50: "Since Tiamat is a female monster...As the primeval waters, Tiamat belongs to an older generation of gods who are to be supplanted by their descendants...It is clear, in any case, that Tiamat is a composite monster."
Joseph Fontenrose, Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins (U. of California Press, 1959), p. 256: "The close relation of the female chaos spirit, like Tiamat, Tethys, or Eurynome, to the earth goddess and mother goddess has already been indicated...Though conceived as a terrible being...she was also the mother of all the world: gods, men, and lower creatures alike."
Stephanie Dalley, Myths from Mesopotamia (Oxford 1989), p. 329 (in a glossary): "Tiamat (also pronounced Tiwawat and Tamtu, probably pronounced Tethys in Ionian Greek; also known as Ayabba chiefly in west Semitic)--'Sea', salt water personified as a primeval goddess. Mother of the first generation of gods in the Epic of Creation. Spouse of Apsu. Epitomizes chaos."
So "monster" and "goddess" are both correct; and "mother goddess" is correct, if properly explained (i.e., doesn't belong in the lead, but in a body section discussing Tiamat as a mother goddess similar to Gaia, etc. --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
No, sorry. "Goddess" is not "correct" - that's a POV. If you want to say that SOME sources THINK that she was a goddess, and then provide a source for who CLAIMS that, fine, that's how things work. But outright SAYING she WAS a goddess is pure bias. Monster, however, is undebatable, as all sides agree she fills that role. If you want a subsection on claims of goddess status, great, just document it and source it and write it following NPOV guidelines and do not take their side. DreamGuy 13:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
To be proven as a fact that she was a goddess there has to be sources actually showing that she was worshipped as a goddess. No one has ever done so. Fontenrose and others just have theories, and ones that are built on nothing more than supposition, oftn with a clear bias built upon earlier neopagan beliefs about a Great Goddess. Monster/deity/supernatural entity are words that might be less objectionable because those things don;t imply active worship. DreamGuy 13:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
How about an opening "Tiamat is a monstrous goddess in Babylonian and Sumerian mythology. I'm not sure how to get to the part about being the sea though, although it may not be needed in the intro. If you still have issue with the word "goddess" there (even though "having worshipers" is not implied), "Tiamat is a monstrous female deity ..." will also do, although it is not as simply straightforward as the first. -- JHunterJ 02:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
DreamGuy, you've been around Wikipedia for awhile, so I really shouldn't have to quote the NPOV policy at you, but it seems that I do. Here's a sentence from WP:NPOV#Explanation of the neutral point of view: "None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one." I've emphasized the word published, because you don't seem to be taking it into account. You've got a definition of goddess that you've supplied no sources for, you've decided that Tiamat doesn't meet this definition (again, with supplying no sources), and you say that the sources I've provided are "POV" because they don't take your definition into account. But, to be blunt, unless you are a published expert on this topic, or your opinion is the same as someone who's published on this topic, your opinion carries very little weight compared to that of Fontenrose, Dalley, and Forsyth. Basically, DreamGuy, you're saying there's a NPOV problem because you don't like what the article says; but NPOV applies to published viewpoints, not Wikipedians' personal opinions. So please bring forward some sources that support your view, or stop saying there's an NPOV violation. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC) I'll note, though, that the intro should say something about Tiamat's role as the adversary of Marduk, and I've put somthing in. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Since User:DreamGuy continues to make the baffling assertion that Tiamat is not a goddess, I thought I'd supply yet another scholarly source that says she is (in addition to Forsyth, Fontenrose, and Dalley above). I quote Bruce Louden, The Iliad: Structure, Myth, and Meaning (Johns Hopkins 2006), p. 211: "Out of many Near Eastern instances of divine rebellion, the Enuma Elish offers the most relevant parallels to the Iliad, Tiamat serving as a close parallel to Hera. Both female deities lead rebellions; much as Hera in the Iliad, Tiamat is thematically depicted as having a fierce wrath..." (emphasis mine). "female deity", obviously, is equivalent to "goddess". --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's an interesting one: Martin Luther King Jr., "Light on the Old Testament from the Ancient Near East," The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., ed. Luker et al. (Univ. of California 1992), pp. 167-168: "The account opens with the birth of the chief gods, Tiamat (goddess of salt water) and Apsu (god of fresh water)." Now, Dr. King wasn't an authority on Near Eastern myth, and this quote is from a paper he wrote during his first semester at seminary, for a class taught by James B. Pritchard (who was an authority on NE myth). So the value of this quote, aside from the novelty value, is that it represents the kind of basic information you'd include in a college or graduate student level paper on the Enuma Elish. Other sources that tell us Tiamat is a goddess may be found on Google Books: [5]. --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
User:203.59.173.219, apparently a multiple-user IP, at 09:25, 18 February 2006 inserted an authentic article citation (Jacobsen, Thorkild, (1968) "The Battle between Marduk and Tiamat" Journal of the American Oriental Society, 88.1 (January-March 1968), pp 104-108) in support of a doubtful Sumerian etymology, for which a citation had long been requested. I am now looking at the article ( JSTOR), which supports the Burkert Akkadian etymology I inserted a while back, and does not mention any supposed Sumerian etymology at all. I am removing the following text here: Her name seems ultimately to have been a Sumerian one, as in that language ti = Life, and ama = Mother, suggesting her original name may have been "the mother of all life". If the citation is bogus, and an Akkadian etymology is well supported, this is apparently bogus etymology-babble. -- Wetman 05:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Barry Powell, Classical Myth (Prentice Hall 2004), p. 98 (this is from a summary of the Enuma Elish): "The poem opens with the gods of the primordial waters, male Apsu, fresh water, and female Tiamat, salt water, mingled together in an indeterminate mass..." Now, it seems quite obvious to me that when you're speaking of "gods of primordial waters", and one is male, one female, you have a god and a goddess. --Akhilleus ( talk) 17:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The Tiamat/dragon association made by Gary Gygax in the 1977 Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual was his own. I inquired Gary about the origin a few years ago.
A medieval dragon legend (the Tarrasque) had said that the Tarrasque was the offspring of the Leviathan. It implied that Leviathan was a dragon or at least a source of dragons. Gary had said that he was going to name the ruler of evil dragons as "Leviathan" and then have the good dragons ruled by "Behemoth". In development, he thought otherwise as they were too well known so he used names that were slightly associated with them in comparative mythology "Tiamat" for "Leviathan" and "Bahamut" for "Behemoth". —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneWeigel ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneWeigel ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
This image is NOT a depiction of Tiamat. I know a lot of old books made that claim, and some newer ones that sloppily followed those older references, but, it's simply not right. In fact, for decades now I have used this as one of my quick tests to see if a book covering Mesopotamian myths was reliable or not: if it has this pic and says Tiamat, I know it's unreliable as a source.
If you look at a photo of the original relief (or see it in person, as I have), it's quite clear this creature has a penis. Tiamat was, of course, female. The image is almost certainly the Zu bird, though there are conceivably lots of other figures it could be.
I think this mistake first came about when scholars didn't know a lot about the mythology and assumed any picture of a monster must be Tiamat. Something similar happened when the Burney relief was assumed to be Lilith, when it clearly isn't either.
The edit that introduced this image also included a whole lot of other stuff that was recently removed by myself and another editor. Considering that the split of the appearance section into two parts was opposed by multiple editors, you should discuss it here and try to change our ming to get a consensus before just going back and making the same bad edits again.
And the claim that this image is Tiamat simply never will fly, as it's just wrong. I think I have a photo of the original relief somewhere which I may be able to upload.... I'll have to look for it. DreamGuy ( talk) 00:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I can't get my account to work on commons at the moment, so I'll respond here. This image is a drawing of a relief of Ninurta fighting Zu. See [6]. The relief was part of the temple of Ninurta at Nimrud. --Akhilleus ( talk) 17:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Per my note above, I checked and the identification of this second image with Tiamat is also highly dubious. The person who uploaded that image did not give any source for it. A quick look through the sources I have available nearby strongly suggest it isn't. One book shows the image and simply calls it unlikely to be identified. Another doesn't have it but mentions a number of serpent-dragons that aren't Tiamat, and from other depictions strongly suggest that this is a deity's personal dragon, used as transportation and an indication of his might. Nabu had such a dragon, but so did many others. DreamGuy ( talk) 01:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It would appear that, right now, we have two sources saying that the seal depicts Tiamat, an unknown number of unnamed sources saying that the seal is unidentified, and no sources saying that it is not Tiamat. I see no problem with including the image in the article. If someone here could simply name the sources claiming that the image is unidentified, then we can include the image, citing the sources that identify it as Tiamat as evidence in the caption, but also state in the caption that "some authors regard the image as unidentified," providing a citation to some of these unnamed sources that reportedly argue this. If any sources turn up which definitively state that the seal does not depict Tiamat, then we can remove the image, but, for now, since there are several sources saying that it does depict Tiamat, but none saying that it does not, I see no harm in including the image, as long as the controversy surrounding it is adequately summarized in the image caption. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 13:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
After being alerted to the extensive debate regarding the two images I inserted into the article, I have no agenda regarding inclusion of them except for holding the opinion that it might be better to show them and discuss the problems regarding applicability to Tiamat... I suggest a new heading reserved for the controversy. What is of interest to so many editors, is likely to be of interest to our readers.
I sought images for the article in the commons and on other-language Wikipedia sites and expect that others may as well. My intention was to emphasize the differences in authentic indigenous cultural imagery used to convey the concept of Tiamat among adherents to the religion, which may have changed with time. Given the period of time during which she played a pivotal role in these religious beliefs, one would expect to find authentic images portraying the goddess, not merely a written, abstract, concept—but obviously, they have eluded scholars—perhaps, having been suppressed in ancient times. The uncertainty about the images sometimes attributed to be of Tiamat, however, is a relevant fact that we can examine.
Creating a section that declares the issues, would prevent having to chase them repeatedly. Explication once—seems easier than having to monitor constantly, and it seems ill-advised to attempt to suppress images that have some validity for other uses. It also would educate our readers about the controversy, providing information that encyclopedias ought to present about the topic.
Sorry about the inconvenience to other editors, having more edits I desire to make, than time available, I rarely access the discussions about pages of interest to me before editing. Usually, I only resort to discussion pages if resolution is sought regarding problems or differences arising with other editors (such as this). Will watch to see whether some consensus about this is reached, and if so, I'll help with the edit of that as well as the rest of the article. In the meantime, I shall continue to seek authentic images that might apply—believing that images usually improve articles. ---- 83d40m ( talk) 06:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The intro must be improved to provide factual information, not wrap it behind some kind of preconceived analysis:
...good so far...
Grr! Use "creator godess"!
Push downwards, this is an analysis not a description!
Analysis, not a description: push down.
Ridiculous! There must be an English term, such as "Chaos battle"
Analysis, not a description: push down.
Except that I simply don't believe this kind of modern anachronistical interpretations based on a prejudice about a nonattested original female godess ruling everywhere, this is an analysis, and should be treated in a separate paragraph or section, not in the descriptive intro.
Yeah, sure! It would be nice to require real proofs from religion historicians, like for example the proofs required from normal historicians. This is not science! This is invention of fictional religions that never existed. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 18:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Per this, my preference is that if a notable writer such as Graves is in error, maybe a better way of doing this is including it and including a reliably sourced rebuttal, otherwise folks are going to keep adding it. I can't imagine this article is ever going to be a huge one. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 01:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Although I have given the IP adding new citations a link to a quick guide for referencing, these citations are still not referenced in line with the rest of the citations, and page numbers have not been given. I'm particularly interested in the page number(s) for the book by Cynthia Eller, as she tends to throw cold water on some of these ideas, and the limited search facility at Amazon.com didn't help. Dougweller ( talk) 15:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is there a sentence on Greek mythology here, and in particular, why the sentence about Tiamat and Python having "their body divided into two halves"? Dougweller ( talk) 17:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
As the article points out, whether Tiamat was ever depicted as a snake- or dragon-like being in period sources is disputed, with some scholars holding it to be the creation of modern authors. Saying that Tiamat also has the "mythological symbolism" of a snake requires a source, and in any even would be better handled in the article itself rather than by both simply accepting the claim as given and by using an unintuitive linking strategy (see WP:EASTEREGG). Ergative rlt ( talk) 18:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote from the article: In the Enûma Eliš she opposes when Abzû conspires to kill the younger gods, and she warns the most powerful of those, Ea, who puts Abzû under a spell and kills him.
There is no mentioning of Tiamat warning Ea in the L.W. King Translation. You can't write something in a summary, which isn't there in the original text! Junihausen ( talk) 17:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
The only source listed (Fontenrose) to back this up mentioned that Heidel believes that "dragon form can not be imputed to Tiamat with certainty", but the same source finds Heidel's claims "not convincing" and concludes that "There is reason to believe that Tiamat was sometimes, not necessarily always, conceived as a dragoness". Quite the opposite of what this article claims.
Meanwhile one of the original myths collected in Leonard William King's "The Seven Tablets of Creation" (p. 116-117) unambiguously identify Tiamat as a dragon ("5. Who was the dragon [...]? / 6. Tiamat was the dragon [...]!"). So, unless there is reason to doubt King's translation, this article's claims that "no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures" and that "there are no early precedents for it" are not only O.R., but also clearly wrong and contradicting the sources. -- Painocus ( talk) 00:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The myth states that Abzu was killed. Earlier versions say he was confined by Enki, imprisoned in irrigation canals or held prisoner beneath the E Abzu, the temple or House (=E) of Abzu in Eridu. Thus the statement that he was killed misses the etiological nature of the Mesopotamian myth. The appearance of Lahm and Lahmu (the muddy ones), where freshwater met salt, describes the deposition of silt as the velocity of water flow changes. John D. Croft ( talk) 11:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Whence the name Tiamat and why does Wikipedia think her symbol is 𒀭𒋾𒊩𒆳? Just taking a stab on these characters after a little fishing around...
Elsewhere ( [7], not a terribly authoritative-looking source) I have seen it said that 𒆳 = "mat" = land in Akkadian. If so that would just about round things out, except for the question of whether 𒊩 plays the same role in Akkadian as in Sumerian—since they seem to be enormously different in some ways. (Don't tell me the 𒊩 is why the name is pronounced ti-a-mat instead of ti-mat ... )
Can this be explained in the article? Is there a good book that covers this stuff? Does anyone here know how these (two wildly different sets of) pronunciations were worked out in the first place? And perhaps the most burning question of all: is Wikipedia really ready for unicode cuneiform? Thanks, groupuscule ( talk) 06:03, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Moreover, since the second consonant of Tiamat is /'/, a glottal stop, which often disappears at the intervocalic position so that the resultant vowel sandhi in Akkadian as ti'āmtum > tiāmtum > tâmtum, it is very unlikely that a west Semetic speaker would represent the second consonant as a fricative [h]. (p. 46)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tiamat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
there is some talk about marduk .. but the connection to planet x / nibiru regarding sitchin is missing Nedmira ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
The article claims that Marija Gimbutas's theories were drawn from Robert Graves, which I can find no evidence of, and conflates her theories with him and Merlin Stone. Robert Graves and Merlin Stone were both artists, but Marija Gimbutas was a highly respected archaeologist. Her most well-known theory, the Kurgan hypothesis, is now supported by genetic tests performed after her death. This conflation, as well as the fact that the opposition is described as "academic" while Gimbutas's science background goes unmentioned, resembles a smear campaign [1] launched against Gimbutas by her politically powerful opponents. One of the academics listed, Cynthia Ellis, is specifically referenced in the linked article, which states: "At a conference on 'Gender and Archaeology' at Sonoma State University in October 2002, presenters included Conkey, Tringham, and Eller. Eller gave a slide presentation mocking Gimbutas and the 'Goddess movement' with dripping sarcasm, which caused most of the archaeologists in the audience to whoop with derisive laughter. Several archaeology professors then gave enthusiastic testimonials expressing gratitude for Eller’s book, which many of them actually used in their archaeology classes, for what they assumed is an accurate depiction the 'Goddess movement,' Gimbutas’ work, and the purported causal link between them. During these testimonials, Gimbutas was labeled a 'fundamentalist matriarchalist'—in spite of the fact that Gimbutas herself had rejected in print the label 'matriarchy' for the non-Indo- European cultures." Gimbutas wrote a series of books in which she interpreted archeological evidence as related to a goddess or goddesses, but she herself was not a part of the Goddess movement.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.92.88.98 ( talk) 19:32, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
The ancient Greek name alleged here for Tiamat, Θαλαττη, seems dubious. I cannot find this form as a nominative anywhere in ancient Greek literature, as distinct from the similar dative. I find it in some reference works, but I suspect they're wrong. I find it in transcriptions from manuscripts and elsewhere where it is clearly a sloppily written dative. The real nominative forms, of course, are θαλαττα and θαλασσα. I think a classicist should check it out (referring to ancient texts, not encyclopedias) and perhaps correct it. 71.245.188.249 ( talk) 07:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does the trivia stuff about the game belong in this article? It does not look encyclopedic to me. Leibniz 14:28, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
Also, by "Apsu (or Abzu) fathered upon Tiamat the heavens and the earth" does that mean Apsu and Tiamat procreated? I have trouble construing its meaning - it sounds like a euphanism, almost. -- 220.237.205.227 05:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I added a disambiguation page, as the two lines at the top were kind of crowded, and it made a good place to mention the alleged ancient astronomy claim. Since the alleged reference isn't what this article is about, listing it on the disambig page was more appropriate and should satify anyone who claims to be worried about POV. DreamGuy 20:19, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
I have read the story, and didn't some other gods beg her to help them fight the other gods? They brought up the death of her husband and son, and said that she was powerful enough to help them overcome the ruling gods. And so she made an army of monsters but lost anyways. The article just simply stated that she was angry.
And this is completely random and my POV, but does anyone else feel sorry for Tiamat? I mean, She seemed more reasonable than her husband and son, and the younger gods were being bothersome, and the new rule seemed harsh. The rebellion was just, and they almost made it but then the powerful son of that whatever just creamed ther armies with his magic. I feel sorry for Tiamat. :( Blueaster 18:10, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not comfortable with the assertion that Tiamat is a "Sumerian" goddess as all the references I've seen to her (eg: Dalley - Myths from Mesopotamia, Black & Green - Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia) have been from the Babylonian Epic of Creation, and no Sumerian source (such as those from Samuel Noah Kramer) include her as Sumerian.
Similarly, the Enki reference should be changed to Ea only. Enki was a Sumerian deity, Ea is the form that shows up in the Enuma Elish. This would be like calling Mars "Ares" - they're similar, but distinctly different.
Finally, I have found no reference for Anu as being the original hero in the Tiamat slaying myth. Where does that come from?
Chris.s 21:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
The epic of creation was written by the Sumerians first, khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
then the Mesopotamians copied it khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
and changed the supreme deity Anu to Marduk. khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
When the nefilim and anunnaki first came to earth roughly 450,000 years ago khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
Anu was the sepreme deity, then after Anu retired Marduk took his place. Ea and Enki are both the same deity, there are 5 of 12 sumerian deitys that have 2 names Ea/Enki, Nanna/Sin, Utu/Shamash, Ishkur/Adad & Inanna/Ishtar. khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
Here is a link to the sumerian epic of creation (Enuma Elish) http://www.halexandria.org/dward179.htm
khaosinfire 10:55pm, August 23,2005
According to the disambiguation page for Tiamat, the five-headed dragon in D&D is "based loosely upon the mythological figure (which did not have five heads)".
But on the Tiamat page, there seems to be no info about her appearance. Was she a dragon with one head, or what was she? If this information is known at all, then someone please add it to the article. (And if nothing is known about her appearance, maybe the article ought to state so.)
I have no clue myself (as I know little of the mythology in question), but I am sure that there are people here who know far more than I. Please help. SpectrumDT 21:05, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
please read the second version of this [
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm enuma elish] text, control-F to search for Dragon -- "Who was the dragon... ?
Tiamat was the dragon....."
"Who will go and slay the dragon,"
And deliver the broad land from...
And become king over... ?
" Go, Tishu, slav the dragon,.."
" Stir up cloud, and storm and tempest! The seal of thy life shalt thou set before thy face, Thou shalt grasp it, and thou shalt slay the dragon." He stirred up cloud, and storm and tempest, He set the seal of his life before his face, He grasped it, and he slew the dragon. For three years and three months, one day and one night The blood of the dragon flowed. ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaanussilla ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not a big deal to me, fella. The most I'm claiming is that a number of current specialists in the field even now consider that the cylinder seal in question may portray Tiamat, probably portrays Tiamat, or does portray Tiamat. I am not claiming that she was most often depicted as a serpentine or dragon-like creature. If my claim is wrong (specified above), big f***ing deal. I am not even claiming myself that that creature is necessarily Tiamat; it might even be Enki for all anyone knows, who was at times a vehicle of Marduk. Or it could just be one of Tiamat's spawn. Different interpretations there may well be, but at least three books:
As well as this link:
indicate that the serpentine monster in the cylinder seal either probably is Tiamat, or is Tiamat. In the meanwhile, no references have been provided for this particular seal (the same cylinder seal in all cases) by the other party. It is a well-known seal. I'm sure that a self-styled eclectic scholar should at least know of it, and better yet have the most up-to-date references on its interpretation. Alexander 007 08:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The Sumerian name Tiamat probably is of Malayo-Polynesian origin. Malayo-Polynesian was the language of an ancient seafaring people who sailed the Pacific and Indian oceans, and even settled the island of Madagascar near Africa. In some Malayo-Polynesian languages spoken in the Philippines, Indonesia, and Madagascar, the words dayat or dagat, which mean the salt-water "sea" or "ocean," appear to have a word correspondence, in both sound and meaning, to the Sumerian name Tiamat, who is known as a goddess of the salt-water sea or ocean. The Sumerian god/goddess Tiamat is probably just the salt-water sea or ocean deified.
Sincerely, Alexandra Belaire —This unsigned comment was added by 70.29.62.127 ( talk • contribs) .
The disambiguation page this article is linked to is a mess. Red links, tons of referances all to the same concept of the D&D Tiamat appearing in other video games as a dragon; these need to be on the Tiamat page. Clearly all roleplaying referances stem from the D&D version. They are multiheaded, evil dragons. This kind of information genrally appears as an "In popular culture" or in literature" sort of section. Why it is on a disambiguation page is beyond me. Mrwuggs 18:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
To me, this page is a test case for WP: is it possible to have an article on Tiamat, or will it drown in crackpot theories and gamecruft? There is a struggle every few months. Leibniz 21:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Can someone explain what "earlier sources" associate Tiamat with Lotan? Obviously this statement needs to be sourced with at least one of them. Mrwuggs 21:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
There is an alternative West Semitic Etymology that may help explain why Tiamat was described as Serpentine. In the fragmentary myth of "Astarte and the Tribute of the Sea" there is mention of "Ta-yam-t", which seems to be a reference to a female (*-t, feminine terminator) serpent (*Ta, *Tan) of the Sea (*Yam). If this etymology is correct, it would explain the connection between Tiamat and Lo-tan (Leviathan?), and the veiled hint at Tiamat, which many Biblical scholars see as a reference to Tehwom (=the Deeps), as a cognate for "Tiamat". Certainly the link between Tiamat and Tehwom/Tehom (See Catherine Keller at [4] needs to be included, as it is often pointed to by conventional Biblical scholars. John D. Croft 16:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Interested in others thoughts.
She flat out is not. She gave birth to monsters, but she is a goddess. Please do not revert the clarification of this fact in the first paragraph. Mrwuggs 18:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Your ideas of a "normal godlike form" seem to be skewed to the Judeo-Christian view of "man in god's image." Ganesha has also been viewed as a monster by people with this closeminded viewpoint. Also, her primary archtype is that of the mother, and as the defender of her children and mate. The role of "monster" only arose once she was demonized. People do not worship monsters. Tiamat was considered holy and a goddess, worshiped in temples. She was the co-creator of the world. I don't think one can even argue with the clear fact that she is a legitamate diety. Mrwuggs 15:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
It is about time we came to a final decision on this argument. I think it has been made clear that Tiamat is not a monster, and no one has stepped forward to challange the argument above. Unless someone wishes to continue to defend her monsterousness dispite the fact that this is clearly grounded in ignorance of her primary archtype and influanced by Judeo-Christian bias, I think we should make the appropriate edit and consider this arguement closed. If someone wishes to make a reasonable arguement backed by research and actual unbiased anthropological findings, the time is now. If no one can do this, this discussion will be archived and the changes made in two weeks. Mrwuggs 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I just noticed this debate, in which no one has cited any specific sources. I note that recent edits to the article indicate this issue is still in dispute. Thing is, it's somewhat silly, because Tiamat is both a monster and a goddess. There's no reason to see these things as mutually exclusive. Let me supply a few quotes.
Neil Forsyth, The Old Enemy (Princeton University Press, 1987), pp. 49-50: "Since Tiamat is a female monster...As the primeval waters, Tiamat belongs to an older generation of gods who are to be supplanted by their descendants...It is clear, in any case, that Tiamat is a composite monster."
Joseph Fontenrose, Python: a study of Delphic myth and its origins (U. of California Press, 1959), p. 256: "The close relation of the female chaos spirit, like Tiamat, Tethys, or Eurynome, to the earth goddess and mother goddess has already been indicated...Though conceived as a terrible being...she was also the mother of all the world: gods, men, and lower creatures alike."
Stephanie Dalley, Myths from Mesopotamia (Oxford 1989), p. 329 (in a glossary): "Tiamat (also pronounced Tiwawat and Tamtu, probably pronounced Tethys in Ionian Greek; also known as Ayabba chiefly in west Semitic)--'Sea', salt water personified as a primeval goddess. Mother of the first generation of gods in the Epic of Creation. Spouse of Apsu. Epitomizes chaos."
So "monster" and "goddess" are both correct; and "mother goddess" is correct, if properly explained (i.e., doesn't belong in the lead, but in a body section discussing Tiamat as a mother goddess similar to Gaia, etc. --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
No, sorry. "Goddess" is not "correct" - that's a POV. If you want to say that SOME sources THINK that she was a goddess, and then provide a source for who CLAIMS that, fine, that's how things work. But outright SAYING she WAS a goddess is pure bias. Monster, however, is undebatable, as all sides agree she fills that role. If you want a subsection on claims of goddess status, great, just document it and source it and write it following NPOV guidelines and do not take their side. DreamGuy 13:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
To be proven as a fact that she was a goddess there has to be sources actually showing that she was worshipped as a goddess. No one has ever done so. Fontenrose and others just have theories, and ones that are built on nothing more than supposition, oftn with a clear bias built upon earlier neopagan beliefs about a Great Goddess. Monster/deity/supernatural entity are words that might be less objectionable because those things don;t imply active worship. DreamGuy 13:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
How about an opening "Tiamat is a monstrous goddess in Babylonian and Sumerian mythology. I'm not sure how to get to the part about being the sea though, although it may not be needed in the intro. If you still have issue with the word "goddess" there (even though "having worshipers" is not implied), "Tiamat is a monstrous female deity ..." will also do, although it is not as simply straightforward as the first. -- JHunterJ 02:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
DreamGuy, you've been around Wikipedia for awhile, so I really shouldn't have to quote the NPOV policy at you, but it seems that I do. Here's a sentence from WP:NPOV#Explanation of the neutral point of view: "None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one." I've emphasized the word published, because you don't seem to be taking it into account. You've got a definition of goddess that you've supplied no sources for, you've decided that Tiamat doesn't meet this definition (again, with supplying no sources), and you say that the sources I've provided are "POV" because they don't take your definition into account. But, to be blunt, unless you are a published expert on this topic, or your opinion is the same as someone who's published on this topic, your opinion carries very little weight compared to that of Fontenrose, Dalley, and Forsyth. Basically, DreamGuy, you're saying there's a NPOV problem because you don't like what the article says; but NPOV applies to published viewpoints, not Wikipedians' personal opinions. So please bring forward some sources that support your view, or stop saying there's an NPOV violation. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC) I'll note, though, that the intro should say something about Tiamat's role as the adversary of Marduk, and I've put somthing in. --Akhilleus ( talk) 16:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Since User:DreamGuy continues to make the baffling assertion that Tiamat is not a goddess, I thought I'd supply yet another scholarly source that says she is (in addition to Forsyth, Fontenrose, and Dalley above). I quote Bruce Louden, The Iliad: Structure, Myth, and Meaning (Johns Hopkins 2006), p. 211: "Out of many Near Eastern instances of divine rebellion, the Enuma Elish offers the most relevant parallels to the Iliad, Tiamat serving as a close parallel to Hera. Both female deities lead rebellions; much as Hera in the Iliad, Tiamat is thematically depicted as having a fierce wrath..." (emphasis mine). "female deity", obviously, is equivalent to "goddess". --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:23, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Here's an interesting one: Martin Luther King Jr., "Light on the Old Testament from the Ancient Near East," The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., ed. Luker et al. (Univ. of California 1992), pp. 167-168: "The account opens with the birth of the chief gods, Tiamat (goddess of salt water) and Apsu (god of fresh water)." Now, Dr. King wasn't an authority on Near Eastern myth, and this quote is from a paper he wrote during his first semester at seminary, for a class taught by James B. Pritchard (who was an authority on NE myth). So the value of this quote, aside from the novelty value, is that it represents the kind of basic information you'd include in a college or graduate student level paper on the Enuma Elish. Other sources that tell us Tiamat is a goddess may be found on Google Books: [5]. --Akhilleus ( talk) 21:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
User:203.59.173.219, apparently a multiple-user IP, at 09:25, 18 February 2006 inserted an authentic article citation (Jacobsen, Thorkild, (1968) "The Battle between Marduk and Tiamat" Journal of the American Oriental Society, 88.1 (January-March 1968), pp 104-108) in support of a doubtful Sumerian etymology, for which a citation had long been requested. I am now looking at the article ( JSTOR), which supports the Burkert Akkadian etymology I inserted a while back, and does not mention any supposed Sumerian etymology at all. I am removing the following text here: Her name seems ultimately to have been a Sumerian one, as in that language ti = Life, and ama = Mother, suggesting her original name may have been "the mother of all life". If the citation is bogus, and an Akkadian etymology is well supported, this is apparently bogus etymology-babble. -- Wetman 05:40, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Barry Powell, Classical Myth (Prentice Hall 2004), p. 98 (this is from a summary of the Enuma Elish): "The poem opens with the gods of the primordial waters, male Apsu, fresh water, and female Tiamat, salt water, mingled together in an indeterminate mass..." Now, it seems quite obvious to me that when you're speaking of "gods of primordial waters", and one is male, one female, you have a god and a goddess. --Akhilleus ( talk) 17:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
The Tiamat/dragon association made by Gary Gygax in the 1977 Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual was his own. I inquired Gary about the origin a few years ago.
A medieval dragon legend (the Tarrasque) had said that the Tarrasque was the offspring of the Leviathan. It implied that Leviathan was a dragon or at least a source of dragons. Gary had said that he was going to name the ruler of evil dragons as "Leviathan" and then have the good dragons ruled by "Behemoth". In development, he thought otherwise as they were too well known so he used names that were slightly associated with them in comparative mythology "Tiamat" for "Leviathan" and "Bahamut" for "Behemoth". —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneWeigel ( talk • contribs) 04:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneWeigel ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
This image is NOT a depiction of Tiamat. I know a lot of old books made that claim, and some newer ones that sloppily followed those older references, but, it's simply not right. In fact, for decades now I have used this as one of my quick tests to see if a book covering Mesopotamian myths was reliable or not: if it has this pic and says Tiamat, I know it's unreliable as a source.
If you look at a photo of the original relief (or see it in person, as I have), it's quite clear this creature has a penis. Tiamat was, of course, female. The image is almost certainly the Zu bird, though there are conceivably lots of other figures it could be.
I think this mistake first came about when scholars didn't know a lot about the mythology and assumed any picture of a monster must be Tiamat. Something similar happened when the Burney relief was assumed to be Lilith, when it clearly isn't either.
The edit that introduced this image also included a whole lot of other stuff that was recently removed by myself and another editor. Considering that the split of the appearance section into two parts was opposed by multiple editors, you should discuss it here and try to change our ming to get a consensus before just going back and making the same bad edits again.
And the claim that this image is Tiamat simply never will fly, as it's just wrong. I think I have a photo of the original relief somewhere which I may be able to upload.... I'll have to look for it. DreamGuy ( talk) 00:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I can't get my account to work on commons at the moment, so I'll respond here. This image is a drawing of a relief of Ninurta fighting Zu. See [6]. The relief was part of the temple of Ninurta at Nimrud. --Akhilleus ( talk) 17:09, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Per my note above, I checked and the identification of this second image with Tiamat is also highly dubious. The person who uploaded that image did not give any source for it. A quick look through the sources I have available nearby strongly suggest it isn't. One book shows the image and simply calls it unlikely to be identified. Another doesn't have it but mentions a number of serpent-dragons that aren't Tiamat, and from other depictions strongly suggest that this is a deity's personal dragon, used as transportation and an indication of his might. Nabu had such a dragon, but so did many others. DreamGuy ( talk) 01:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
It would appear that, right now, we have two sources saying that the seal depicts Tiamat, an unknown number of unnamed sources saying that the seal is unidentified, and no sources saying that it is not Tiamat. I see no problem with including the image in the article. If someone here could simply name the sources claiming that the image is unidentified, then we can include the image, citing the sources that identify it as Tiamat as evidence in the caption, but also state in the caption that "some authors regard the image as unidentified," providing a citation to some of these unnamed sources that reportedly argue this. If any sources turn up which definitively state that the seal does not depict Tiamat, then we can remove the image, but, for now, since there are several sources saying that it does depict Tiamat, but none saying that it does not, I see no harm in including the image, as long as the controversy surrounding it is adequately summarized in the image caption. -- Katolophyromai ( talk) 13:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
After being alerted to the extensive debate regarding the two images I inserted into the article, I have no agenda regarding inclusion of them except for holding the opinion that it might be better to show them and discuss the problems regarding applicability to Tiamat... I suggest a new heading reserved for the controversy. What is of interest to so many editors, is likely to be of interest to our readers.
I sought images for the article in the commons and on other-language Wikipedia sites and expect that others may as well. My intention was to emphasize the differences in authentic indigenous cultural imagery used to convey the concept of Tiamat among adherents to the religion, which may have changed with time. Given the period of time during which she played a pivotal role in these religious beliefs, one would expect to find authentic images portraying the goddess, not merely a written, abstract, concept—but obviously, they have eluded scholars—perhaps, having been suppressed in ancient times. The uncertainty about the images sometimes attributed to be of Tiamat, however, is a relevant fact that we can examine.
Creating a section that declares the issues, would prevent having to chase them repeatedly. Explication once—seems easier than having to monitor constantly, and it seems ill-advised to attempt to suppress images that have some validity for other uses. It also would educate our readers about the controversy, providing information that encyclopedias ought to present about the topic.
Sorry about the inconvenience to other editors, having more edits I desire to make, than time available, I rarely access the discussions about pages of interest to me before editing. Usually, I only resort to discussion pages if resolution is sought regarding problems or differences arising with other editors (such as this). Will watch to see whether some consensus about this is reached, and if so, I'll help with the edit of that as well as the rest of the article. In the meantime, I shall continue to seek authentic images that might apply—believing that images usually improve articles. ---- 83d40m ( talk) 06:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The intro must be improved to provide factual information, not wrap it behind some kind of preconceived analysis:
...good so far...
Grr! Use "creator godess"!
Push downwards, this is an analysis not a description!
Analysis, not a description: push down.
Ridiculous! There must be an English term, such as "Chaos battle"
Analysis, not a description: push down.
Except that I simply don't believe this kind of modern anachronistical interpretations based on a prejudice about a nonattested original female godess ruling everywhere, this is an analysis, and should be treated in a separate paragraph or section, not in the descriptive intro.
Yeah, sure! It would be nice to require real proofs from religion historicians, like for example the proofs required from normal historicians. This is not science! This is invention of fictional religions that never existed. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 18:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Per this, my preference is that if a notable writer such as Graves is in error, maybe a better way of doing this is including it and including a reliably sourced rebuttal, otherwise folks are going to keep adding it. I can't imagine this article is ever going to be a huge one. Casliber ( talk · contribs) 01:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Although I have given the IP adding new citations a link to a quick guide for referencing, these citations are still not referenced in line with the rest of the citations, and page numbers have not been given. I'm particularly interested in the page number(s) for the book by Cynthia Eller, as she tends to throw cold water on some of these ideas, and the limited search facility at Amazon.com didn't help. Dougweller ( talk) 15:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Why is there a sentence on Greek mythology here, and in particular, why the sentence about Tiamat and Python having "their body divided into two halves"? Dougweller ( talk) 17:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
As the article points out, whether Tiamat was ever depicted as a snake- or dragon-like being in period sources is disputed, with some scholars holding it to be the creation of modern authors. Saying that Tiamat also has the "mythological symbolism" of a snake requires a source, and in any even would be better handled in the article itself rather than by both simply accepting the claim as given and by using an unintuitive linking strategy (see WP:EASTEREGG). Ergative rlt ( talk) 18:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote from the article: In the Enûma Eliš she opposes when Abzû conspires to kill the younger gods, and she warns the most powerful of those, Ea, who puts Abzû under a spell and kills him.
There is no mentioning of Tiamat warning Ea in the L.W. King Translation. You can't write something in a summary, which isn't there in the original text! Junihausen ( talk) 17:14, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
The only source listed (Fontenrose) to back this up mentioned that Heidel believes that "dragon form can not be imputed to Tiamat with certainty", but the same source finds Heidel's claims "not convincing" and concludes that "There is reason to believe that Tiamat was sometimes, not necessarily always, conceived as a dragoness". Quite the opposite of what this article claims.
Meanwhile one of the original myths collected in Leonard William King's "The Seven Tablets of Creation" (p. 116-117) unambiguously identify Tiamat as a dragon ("5. Who was the dragon [...]? / 6. Tiamat was the dragon [...]!"). So, unless there is reason to doubt King's translation, this article's claims that "no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures" and that "there are no early precedents for it" are not only O.R., but also clearly wrong and contradicting the sources. -- Painocus ( talk) 00:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The myth states that Abzu was killed. Earlier versions say he was confined by Enki, imprisoned in irrigation canals or held prisoner beneath the E Abzu, the temple or House (=E) of Abzu in Eridu. Thus the statement that he was killed misses the etiological nature of the Mesopotamian myth. The appearance of Lahm and Lahmu (the muddy ones), where freshwater met salt, describes the deposition of silt as the velocity of water flow changes. John D. Croft ( talk) 11:00, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Whence the name Tiamat and why does Wikipedia think her symbol is 𒀭𒋾𒊩𒆳? Just taking a stab on these characters after a little fishing around...
Elsewhere ( [7], not a terribly authoritative-looking source) I have seen it said that 𒆳 = "mat" = land in Akkadian. If so that would just about round things out, except for the question of whether 𒊩 plays the same role in Akkadian as in Sumerian—since they seem to be enormously different in some ways. (Don't tell me the 𒊩 is why the name is pronounced ti-a-mat instead of ti-mat ... )
Can this be explained in the article? Is there a good book that covers this stuff? Does anyone here know how these (two wildly different sets of) pronunciations were worked out in the first place? And perhaps the most burning question of all: is Wikipedia really ready for unicode cuneiform? Thanks, groupuscule ( talk) 06:03, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Moreover, since the second consonant of Tiamat is /'/, a glottal stop, which often disappears at the intervocalic position so that the resultant vowel sandhi in Akkadian as ti'āmtum > tiāmtum > tâmtum, it is very unlikely that a west Semetic speaker would represent the second consonant as a fricative [h]. (p. 46)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Tiamat. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 03:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
there is some talk about marduk .. but the connection to planet x / nibiru regarding sitchin is missing Nedmira ( talk) 12:05, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
The article claims that Marija Gimbutas's theories were drawn from Robert Graves, which I can find no evidence of, and conflates her theories with him and Merlin Stone. Robert Graves and Merlin Stone were both artists, but Marija Gimbutas was a highly respected archaeologist. Her most well-known theory, the Kurgan hypothesis, is now supported by genetic tests performed after her death. This conflation, as well as the fact that the opposition is described as "academic" while Gimbutas's science background goes unmentioned, resembles a smear campaign [1] launched against Gimbutas by her politically powerful opponents. One of the academics listed, Cynthia Ellis, is specifically referenced in the linked article, which states: "At a conference on 'Gender and Archaeology' at Sonoma State University in October 2002, presenters included Conkey, Tringham, and Eller. Eller gave a slide presentation mocking Gimbutas and the 'Goddess movement' with dripping sarcasm, which caused most of the archaeologists in the audience to whoop with derisive laughter. Several archaeology professors then gave enthusiastic testimonials expressing gratitude for Eller’s book, which many of them actually used in their archaeology classes, for what they assumed is an accurate depiction the 'Goddess movement,' Gimbutas’ work, and the purported causal link between them. During these testimonials, Gimbutas was labeled a 'fundamentalist matriarchalist'—in spite of the fact that Gimbutas herself had rejected in print the label 'matriarchy' for the non-Indo- European cultures." Gimbutas wrote a series of books in which she interpreted archeological evidence as related to a goddess or goddesses, but she herself was not a part of the Goddess movement.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.92.88.98 ( talk) 19:32, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
The ancient Greek name alleged here for Tiamat, Θαλαττη, seems dubious. I cannot find this form as a nominative anywhere in ancient Greek literature, as distinct from the similar dative. I find it in some reference works, but I suspect they're wrong. I find it in transcriptions from manuscripts and elsewhere where it is clearly a sloppily written dative. The real nominative forms, of course, are θαλαττα and θαλασσα. I think a classicist should check it out (referring to ancient texts, not encyclopedias) and perhaps correct it. 71.245.188.249 ( talk) 07:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)