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There seems to be something of a consensus that Thutmose III was a very good leader in all aspects, not just in his military efforts. Should we mention this in the articile?
sorry if this is the wrong place for this... i can't quite figure out where the right place to mention it would be... in the intro to the article it mentions that thutmose hated hatshpesut for usurping his power, or something to that effect. just to put it simply, this is an idea that has been very thoroughly discredited and shouldn't be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.120.149 ( talk) 09:49, 2006 March 29 (UTC)
The two dates for Thutmose's rule now don't match. The first par says 1479, which Anglius corrected to, and that has been reverted to 1458. It's all very well blanket reverting those you think are trolls, Dave, but maybe you could check that your reversion is actually an improvement.
Grace Note 01:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Is possible that Tuthmose III may identify with Miphramuchthosis of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?
- Is possible that Hatsepsut may identify with Miphris or Misaphris of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?
-- IonnKorr 22:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I've straightened out the formatting of the page, not perfectly, however the right alignment of the picture of the statue was shoving all the text past the pharaohbox. Furthermore, the into paragraph is a little long for an article, especially considering the length of all the rest. So this could use some reformatting across the board. Thanatosimii 03:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reformatted a good amount of the page, mostly to make actual sections out of that ridiculously long introduction. I'm also going to put this here: Image:Egypt.Thutmose-III.statue.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Granite statue of Pharaoh Thutmose III in Cairo Museum because it's causing a bit of an image jam. when there is a section that has to do with him as a builder pharaoh, it can be put in there, but we don't need two lead statue images. Thanatosimii 00:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't need cleanup anymore, just expansion. So, while I suggest that the article have needed parts added, the particular tag in place is not helpful. I will accordingly be removing it. Anyone who sees a specific terrifically lacking section should put the particular "Please expand this section" tag on it. Thanatosimii 19:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think it's time for me to turn my attention officially to this article. This is probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived, so I've been putting it off for a while; however I now intend to, at least, expand the campaign section until it is complete and somewhat exhaustive. Somthing to think about, however -- Thutmose III's campaigns could almost be an article in their own right, so perhaps if they get too large, they should be put in a seperate article and summarized here. Just a potential thought, however; I'm personally ambivolent. Thanatosimii 21:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
How can you say that Thutmose was probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived? Because almost every egyptologist belives that the most important egyptian was of course Ramesses the great who left some of the greatest monuments in the whole egypt(about 70%of buildings that canbe seen to this day, and every pharaoh after him, was most respecting and admiering not Thutmose but Ramesses. While Thutmose left an empire that we can not see any longer, Ramesses monuments stand tall reminding us upon the greatest man to have ever walked the ancient egyptien land. R. also had much more children and wifes, and was much taller,lived and ruled longer and was quite possibly even physicly stronger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.191.228 ( talk) 01:26, 2007 January 2 (UTC)
Um... we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that, contrary to your claim. Thanatosimii 01:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that" that claim is very strange because in my view and the wiew of others is what the egyptologist say it is actualy the opposite. He was a greatest warrior, that is for certan, but he was certanly not the greatest and most important king. Today it is known much more about Ramesses the great than Thutmosis III. In other words T. is a more obscure pharaoh in comparison to the pharaoh with the title "the great". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.165.250 ( talk) 12:11, 2007 January 2 (UTC)
Well...usurping was a kind of a habit of egyptian kings, Thutmose did it also. Unlike Thutmose who was also a determend destroyer (defacing monuments of Hatshepsut), Ramesses built abot 70% of temples in Egypt, and what he did not build he at least rebuilt. As Ramesses was a propagandist, so where other pharaohs, Thutmose clamed to have crushed the Muttani at Aleppo, but his proclamed victory was in fact just a stalemate. Ramesses was called a Great Ancestor by later phararaohs and egyptians who looked at him as a perfect and most succesful pharaoh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.120.86 ( talk) 12:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
How did Thutmose die? -unsigned
We don't know. We just know when he died, which is actually a piece of information we don't have for most pharaohs Thanatosimii 16:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
How did Hatchepsut die? Sickness? Murderued? -unsigned Hatshepsut died of cancer. they found her mummy..
Thutmose probably died of some skin illness, but this is not certain.
I am not aware that Thutmose III was mentioned in the Amarna Letters. As far as I know the Amarna Letters only mention Amenhotep III, Amenhotep IV and Tutankhamun. I was wondering if anyone could provide a reference to that claim. -- JLCA 18:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's a goal a long ways down the road... but not impossible, as Ahmose I is showing. For starters, we need a good outline of what would make a "complete" article.
I. Family
II. Dates and Length of Reign
III. Military Campagins
IV. Damnatio Memoriae of Hatshepsut
V. Arts and Archetectural Developments
VI. Monument Construction
VII. Mummy (move any death stuff into this section, unless fits better in his tomb's section)
VIII. Sucession (Thutmose had a coregency with Amenhotep II. It was apparently only a few months, but some have argued for two years or so. For this, Murnane's dissertation Ancient Egyptian Coregencies is a must. I wish I still had that one lying around)
I'll be working with this model until someone decides we need changes. Thanatosimii 01:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to add/expand/change anything in my list above; especially if I was incorrect. This update was just written after scanning the article, I didn't check the history. And congrats to everyone who has been adding info, it looks great! -- Editor at Large • talk 17:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
"Thutmose III was a great builder pharaoh" - this in not entirely correct so i think it would be better to call him a worrior pharaoh. He built many temples but this is unimportant in comparison with his great military activity. (preceeding unsigned comment left by Harioris
Thanatosimii 19:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
While talking about the second builder pharaoh after Ramesses II, this is not the case. The second greatest builder pharaoh was almost certanly Amenhotep III, And after him most probably comes Seti I whose monuments (specificly the art from his time) are the highiest quality of any pharaoh before or after. In the building projects that Seti I undertook, the quality of the reliefs and other designs were probably never surpassed by later rulers. And we must not forget Snofru who was also a great builder, but lived much earlier. And the destruction of the monuments of Hatshepsut, the most simple reason could be simple jalaousy because Thutmose´s monuments could not rivel those of his stepmother who overshadowed him. Harioris 23:46 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but what I mean is that his monuments, although numerous, are all very small. And his monuments (most of them) were very weak in quality, so we can no longer see them. A great builder would have to, beside making a large number of monuments, make them powerful and strong enough to servive the elements of time. Harioris 12:29 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Which egyptologists say that he was a great builder? Name them. If you just compare the size of the building ( an example) that he build at Luxor wiht the buildings of Ramesses II and Amenhotep III his part of the temple seems very small. The onely great mounument that Thutmose had build is the great festival hall at Karnak. Many egyptologists say about him "he was not interested in building". All his other building work on other locations is not very important. When a builder pharaoh, such as the ones I hade previously mentioned, builds, he bulds BIG, and that is the point. Name your monuments so that I can see if we are looking at the same ones. Harioris 11:31 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the reference to Hatshepsut's co-regency should be moved to the section below, "Dates and length of reign"; it seems to take over a section that is supposed to be about his relatives and family. Some further background on his family such as grandparents and/or successors is probably needed here to give more context to who the man was rather than just "son of Thutmose II and Aset". The mention in the possible marriages sentence and the bit at the bottom about Merytre-Hatshepsut are awkward as well; there is no context to the statements "was not actually Hatshepsut's daughter" etc. Some more explanation about why this would be/was thought in the first place could probably help (note her article is lacking in explanation as to why as well). -- Editor at Large • talk 17:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd that there is no mention of Thutmose III as a likely basis for the Greek tales of conquests by the Pharaoh "Sesostris" (aka "Sesoosis", "Vesosis"). Although his name isn't similar, his achievements in foreign conquests are as close as any Egyptian pharaoh gets, and the timing of his reign is very close to that given by Herodotus (according to whom "Sesostris" was followed by a "Pheros", then by a "Proteus", who reigned during the Trojan war, and then by "Rhampsinitus", an obvious match for Rameses II). Mrcautious ( talk) 02:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
What weapons improvement? Describe. 4.249.63.67 ( talk) 16:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
See article from Science Direct at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440312002270 71.163.117.143 ( talk) 13:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
There appears to be some discrepancy between this article and Hatshepsut's over whether or not a co-regency, de facto or de jure, actually existed. The Hatshepsut article states that the modern consensus is that she was pharaoh alone, and that the idea of a co-regency is outdated, but gives no reference for this claim. If a co-regency did exist perhaps it should be noted in his reignal dates.
99.239.72.120 ( talk) 02:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
We need a section on Tuthmosis's III Discover, meaning the archaeological side of things, and the items found in his tomb alongside his sarcophagus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowlance34 ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure these specific dates are really the "usual" dates since as far as I can see, only Beckerath bothers to calculate the dates at all. And although this article has said April 24 for years, Beckerath's book actually says April 28, so I've changed that. (Apparently this article has said April 24 since at least 2009, judging from the "On This Day" section at the top...)
Beckerath himself cites Neugebauer, who matched up Egyptian calendar dates with Julian calendar dates. So, Sirius rose in the sky on 3 Shemu 25, which in Thutmose's time corresponds to July 18. The start of Thutmose's reign is 1 Shemu 4, or 81 days before that. July 18 - 81 days = April 28. Using the same calculation for Thutmose's death on 3 Peret 30 should give us March 25 (115 days before July 18), not March 11. Since I'm not an Egyptologist, maybe I I misunderstood how this works...in any case, since Beckerath says March 11, and we're citing Beckerath here, I guess we have to say March 11 too.
But from my reading it seems that the 1479-1425 dates aren't completely set in stone - it's actually much harder to prove the years than it is to prove the month and days. So it just seems unnecessarily misleading to give these very specific dates for his reign. (But as I said, I'm no Egyptologist...) Adam Bishop ( talk) 21:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi, I am a Japanese Wikipedian of Ancient Egypt field and I think the first section is wrong. Section "name" says ""Eternal are the manifestations of Ra, Born of Thoth"" but the word "xpr" is the singular form, not a plural form. So that translation should be "Eternal is the manifestation of Ra". (Note:the infobox pharaoh says "Lasting" so it should be united) Thank you. Yuuyuu0430 ( talk) 12:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Thutmose III article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on April 24, 2009, April 24, 2010, April 24, 2011, April 24, 2014, April 24, 2016, April 24, 2017, April 24, 2018, and April 24, 2020. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
There seems to be something of a consensus that Thutmose III was a very good leader in all aspects, not just in his military efforts. Should we mention this in the articile?
sorry if this is the wrong place for this... i can't quite figure out where the right place to mention it would be... in the intro to the article it mentions that thutmose hated hatshpesut for usurping his power, or something to that effect. just to put it simply, this is an idea that has been very thoroughly discredited and shouldn't be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.31.120.149 ( talk) 09:49, 2006 March 29 (UTC)
The two dates for Thutmose's rule now don't match. The first par says 1479, which Anglius corrected to, and that has been reverted to 1458. It's all very well blanket reverting those you think are trolls, Dave, but maybe you could check that your reversion is actually an improvement.
Grace Note 01:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Is possible that Tuthmose III may identify with Miphramuchthosis of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?
- Is possible that Hatsepsut may identify with Miphris or Misaphris of Graeco-Egyptian historian Manetho?
-- IonnKorr 22:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I've straightened out the formatting of the page, not perfectly, however the right alignment of the picture of the statue was shoving all the text past the pharaohbox. Furthermore, the into paragraph is a little long for an article, especially considering the length of all the rest. So this could use some reformatting across the board. Thanatosimii 03:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reformatted a good amount of the page, mostly to make actual sections out of that ridiculously long introduction. I'm also going to put this here: Image:Egypt.Thutmose-III.statue.jpg|thumb|left|200px|Granite statue of Pharaoh Thutmose III in Cairo Museum because it's causing a bit of an image jam. when there is a section that has to do with him as a builder pharaoh, it can be put in there, but we don't need two lead statue images. Thanatosimii 00:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't need cleanup anymore, just expansion. So, while I suggest that the article have needed parts added, the particular tag in place is not helpful. I will accordingly be removing it. Anyone who sees a specific terrifically lacking section should put the particular "Please expand this section" tag on it. Thanatosimii 19:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think it's time for me to turn my attention officially to this article. This is probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived, so I've been putting it off for a while; however I now intend to, at least, expand the campaign section until it is complete and somewhat exhaustive. Somthing to think about, however -- Thutmose III's campaigns could almost be an article in their own right, so perhaps if they get too large, they should be put in a seperate article and summarized here. Just a potential thought, however; I'm personally ambivolent. Thanatosimii 21:10, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
How can you say that Thutmose was probably the most important egyptian ever to have lived? Because almost every egyptologist belives that the most important egyptian was of course Ramesses the great who left some of the greatest monuments in the whole egypt(about 70%of buildings that canbe seen to this day, and every pharaoh after him, was most respecting and admiering not Thutmose but Ramesses. While Thutmose left an empire that we can not see any longer, Ramesses monuments stand tall reminding us upon the greatest man to have ever walked the ancient egyptien land. R. also had much more children and wifes, and was much taller,lived and ruled longer and was quite possibly even physicly stronger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.191.228 ( talk) 01:26, 2007 January 2 (UTC)
Um... we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that, contrary to your claim. Thanatosimii 01:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
"we can say that because almost every egyptologist does say that" that claim is very strange because in my view and the wiew of others is what the egyptologist say it is actualy the opposite. He was a greatest warrior, that is for certan, but he was certanly not the greatest and most important king. Today it is known much more about Ramesses the great than Thutmosis III. In other words T. is a more obscure pharaoh in comparison to the pharaoh with the title "the great". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.165.250 ( talk) 12:11, 2007 January 2 (UTC)
Well...usurping was a kind of a habit of egyptian kings, Thutmose did it also. Unlike Thutmose who was also a determend destroyer (defacing monuments of Hatshepsut), Ramesses built abot 70% of temples in Egypt, and what he did not build he at least rebuilt. As Ramesses was a propagandist, so where other pharaohs, Thutmose clamed to have crushed the Muttani at Aleppo, but his proclamed victory was in fact just a stalemate. Ramesses was called a Great Ancestor by later phararaohs and egyptians who looked at him as a perfect and most succesful pharaoh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.120.86 ( talk) 12:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
How did Thutmose die? -unsigned
We don't know. We just know when he died, which is actually a piece of information we don't have for most pharaohs Thanatosimii 16:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
How did Hatchepsut die? Sickness? Murderued? -unsigned Hatshepsut died of cancer. they found her mummy..
Thutmose probably died of some skin illness, but this is not certain.
I am not aware that Thutmose III was mentioned in the Amarna Letters. As far as I know the Amarna Letters only mention Amenhotep III, Amenhotep IV and Tutankhamun. I was wondering if anyone could provide a reference to that claim. -- JLCA 18:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's a goal a long ways down the road... but not impossible, as Ahmose I is showing. For starters, we need a good outline of what would make a "complete" article.
I. Family
II. Dates and Length of Reign
III. Military Campagins
IV. Damnatio Memoriae of Hatshepsut
V. Arts and Archetectural Developments
VI. Monument Construction
VII. Mummy (move any death stuff into this section, unless fits better in his tomb's section)
VIII. Sucession (Thutmose had a coregency with Amenhotep II. It was apparently only a few months, but some have argued for two years or so. For this, Murnane's dissertation Ancient Egyptian Coregencies is a must. I wish I still had that one lying around)
I'll be working with this model until someone decides we need changes. Thanatosimii 01:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Feel free to add/expand/change anything in my list above; especially if I was incorrect. This update was just written after scanning the article, I didn't check the history. And congrats to everyone who has been adding info, it looks great! -- Editor at Large • talk 17:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
"Thutmose III was a great builder pharaoh" - this in not entirely correct so i think it would be better to call him a worrior pharaoh. He built many temples but this is unimportant in comparison with his great military activity. (preceeding unsigned comment left by Harioris
Thanatosimii 19:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
While talking about the second builder pharaoh after Ramesses II, this is not the case. The second greatest builder pharaoh was almost certanly Amenhotep III, And after him most probably comes Seti I whose monuments (specificly the art from his time) are the highiest quality of any pharaoh before or after. In the building projects that Seti I undertook, the quality of the reliefs and other designs were probably never surpassed by later rulers. And we must not forget Snofru who was also a great builder, but lived much earlier. And the destruction of the monuments of Hatshepsut, the most simple reason could be simple jalaousy because Thutmose´s monuments could not rivel those of his stepmother who overshadowed him. Harioris 23:46 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but what I mean is that his monuments, although numerous, are all very small. And his monuments (most of them) were very weak in quality, so we can no longer see them. A great builder would have to, beside making a large number of monuments, make them powerful and strong enough to servive the elements of time. Harioris 12:29 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Which egyptologists say that he was a great builder? Name them. If you just compare the size of the building ( an example) that he build at Luxor wiht the buildings of Ramesses II and Amenhotep III his part of the temple seems very small. The onely great mounument that Thutmose had build is the great festival hall at Karnak. Many egyptologists say about him "he was not interested in building". All his other building work on other locations is not very important. When a builder pharaoh, such as the ones I hade previously mentioned, builds, he bulds BIG, and that is the point. Name your monuments so that I can see if we are looking at the same ones. Harioris 11:31 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the reference to Hatshepsut's co-regency should be moved to the section below, "Dates and length of reign"; it seems to take over a section that is supposed to be about his relatives and family. Some further background on his family such as grandparents and/or successors is probably needed here to give more context to who the man was rather than just "son of Thutmose II and Aset". The mention in the possible marriages sentence and the bit at the bottom about Merytre-Hatshepsut are awkward as well; there is no context to the statements "was not actually Hatshepsut's daughter" etc. Some more explanation about why this would be/was thought in the first place could probably help (note her article is lacking in explanation as to why as well). -- Editor at Large • talk 17:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd that there is no mention of Thutmose III as a likely basis for the Greek tales of conquests by the Pharaoh "Sesostris" (aka "Sesoosis", "Vesosis"). Although his name isn't similar, his achievements in foreign conquests are as close as any Egyptian pharaoh gets, and the timing of his reign is very close to that given by Herodotus (according to whom "Sesostris" was followed by a "Pheros", then by a "Proteus", who reigned during the Trojan war, and then by "Rhampsinitus", an obvious match for Rameses II). Mrcautious ( talk) 02:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
What weapons improvement? Describe. 4.249.63.67 ( talk) 16:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
See article from Science Direct at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440312002270 71.163.117.143 ( talk) 13:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
There appears to be some discrepancy between this article and Hatshepsut's over whether or not a co-regency, de facto or de jure, actually existed. The Hatshepsut article states that the modern consensus is that she was pharaoh alone, and that the idea of a co-regency is outdated, but gives no reference for this claim. If a co-regency did exist perhaps it should be noted in his reignal dates.
99.239.72.120 ( talk) 02:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
We need a section on Tuthmosis's III Discover, meaning the archaeological side of things, and the items found in his tomb alongside his sarcophagus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadowlance34 ( talk • contribs) 23:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure these specific dates are really the "usual" dates since as far as I can see, only Beckerath bothers to calculate the dates at all. And although this article has said April 24 for years, Beckerath's book actually says April 28, so I've changed that. (Apparently this article has said April 24 since at least 2009, judging from the "On This Day" section at the top...)
Beckerath himself cites Neugebauer, who matched up Egyptian calendar dates with Julian calendar dates. So, Sirius rose in the sky on 3 Shemu 25, which in Thutmose's time corresponds to July 18. The start of Thutmose's reign is 1 Shemu 4, or 81 days before that. July 18 - 81 days = April 28. Using the same calculation for Thutmose's death on 3 Peret 30 should give us March 25 (115 days before July 18), not March 11. Since I'm not an Egyptologist, maybe I I misunderstood how this works...in any case, since Beckerath says March 11, and we're citing Beckerath here, I guess we have to say March 11 too.
But from my reading it seems that the 1479-1425 dates aren't completely set in stone - it's actually much harder to prove the years than it is to prove the month and days. So it just seems unnecessarily misleading to give these very specific dates for his reign. (But as I said, I'm no Egyptologist...) Adam Bishop ( talk) 21:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi, I am a Japanese Wikipedian of Ancient Egypt field and I think the first section is wrong. Section "name" says ""Eternal are the manifestations of Ra, Born of Thoth"" but the word "xpr" is the singular form, not a plural form. So that translation should be "Eternal is the manifestation of Ra". (Note:the infobox pharaoh says "Lasting" so it should be united) Thank you. Yuuyuu0430 ( talk) 12:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
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