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Hi Philip, welcome to Wikipedia! Your idea of listing the five "Solas" in a separate article seems logical, but you might consider consolidating here information from other articles that already list some or all of the Solas - such as Protestantism and Calvinism. One way to find these references is to go to the two Sola articles (at least, that I'm aware of), Sola fide and Sola scriptura, and use the "What links here" button to see the numerous existing references. Later, Harris7 17:57, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
A little history would be helpful here. When was each of these first propounded? When did each first appear in print? Which denominations believe each? When were they first grouped together? Who named them the five "solas"? - Nunh-huh 04:19, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In the page history, AllanBz deleted Flex's mentioning the doctrines of Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate with this comment: "Flex, you were the one who wanted neutrality. Mary as co-redemptrix is not Catholic doctrine despite many who wish it so."
Flex's response:
Sorry, one other issue I needed to address: AllanBz is right about the issue of doctrine. RCC doctrine is often influenced by what the people believe (as was the case with the doctrine of the Assumption) but it is never actually doctrine until the Church says it is. There is actually a special phrase to cover such a "grassroots" doctrine: Sensus fidelium or “consensus of the faithful.” However, even if every Catholic signs off that he/she believes a sensus fidelium belief, it's still not Catholic doctrine. (Although, you might argue such event would count as an ecumenical council, which would make it doctrine.) As I noted above, doctrine is made by the Pope speaking ex cathedra, or by the promulgation of an official document (encyclical, constitution, bull, etc.) that effectively says "This is official doctrine." Honestly, it really is a fine distinction; doctrine is doctrine when the people in power say "this is doctrine." Until that time, anyone from the Pope on down can speak of it (as in the case of JPII using "co-redemptrix") without it actually being doctrine, as long as he (the pope) doesn't say "this is doctrine." Certainly, individuals may privately believe what they wish, however, if they publicly dissent from Church teaching, they become heretics. On this particular issue, it isn't so much that believing Mary is co-redemptrix is against the official Church teaching, but rather, there just isn't an official Church teaching on the matter. It would be incorrect to state the matter as though the Church accepts the belief. A statement to the effect of "While the Church has never officially stated that Mary is co-redemptrix, many Catholics mantain this belief" would be factual. Essjay (talk) 00:48, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
A very tidy summation, which I think will stand scrutiny. Mkmcconn (Talk) 14:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. For example, "Faith and good works yield justification" is not true for baptised infants in Catholicism: they don't have either. Nor is it true that without some faith an adult who is baptized will be able to recieve much benefit. After conversion, the faith+good works don't yield justification for Catholics, instead Catholics try to merit that freely given gracious justification: i.e. Catholics convert on the merits of Christ alone, but afterwards they they work to deserve his grace because God must be served and we want the reward of 'well done good and faithful servant'. I don't know if you can see the difference there? (MINI-RANT: The whole point of the Catholic approach is that this kind of reductive sloganizing is a useless distraction that causes arguments. There is grace, there is conversion, there is a life lived in love: all form a unity. The New Testament gives about 10 different things that 'cause' salvation, but none of them should be taken alone. Love is frequently mentioned for example as necessary, in some way. The cheeseparing approach goes beyond what God revealed, IMHO, and that is why there is so much arguemnt about it.) Rick Jelliffe ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:32, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I added a "section" with an attempt at providing a little historical context. It seemed to me like a little something like this was needed in addition to just listing the Five Solas. But I consider this up for discussion or improvements. Regards, Jim Ellis 15:56, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
I would welcome interested editors from the Calvinist, Reformed, and other Protestant traditions to weigh in with their own interpretation of these five solas. The Lutheran position should not be presented as the only POV although I have striven to make statements on the Lutheran position NPOV. We may find that we have more unanimity than we may have thought. It may be helpful for Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox editors to correct any misrepresentation of their doctrine. Classical Thomist Roman Catholic doctrine holds to the sola gratia.-- Drboisclair 20:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Certain Anglican scholars have suggested that there should be two additional solas on the list : Sola ecclesia and Sola caritas. It might be a good idea if appropriate information were added about these two other proposed solas. [1] [2] [3] ADM ( talk) 05:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Just a note: the first four mottos are generally stated in the ablative case (hence "fide" rather than "fides") and translated as a prepositional phrase starting with "by" or "through." Thus, "Solus Christus" is usually rendered "Solo Christo."
Would someone mind explaining the Latin grammar behind "Soli Deo gloria"? I've seen it cast that way a significant majority of the time, but the genitive/(dative/ablative)/(nominative/ablative) construction doesn't make very much sense.
It seems as if one of the following would be more appropriate:
Does anyone know 1) which case "Deo" is in (dative or ablative), 2) which case "gloria" is in (nominative or ablative), and/or 3) what phrasing makes these noun endings make sense?
Thanks! 72.218.206.109 ( talk) 16:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The idea of Luther having Three (Faith, Grace, Scripture) instead of Five Solas is a pretty common one. Why is there no mention of this, or pointing it out as a common misconception if it is a misconception (I personally don't know as some sources I see say 3, others 5, I came to this article to find out and there's nothing on this)? Flygongengar ( talk) 06:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
You would need to provide a reference to his writing, unless you mean this is an analytical truth not a historical one? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 07:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I several times tried to add a criticism section based on the book "Rome, sweet home". It was not completed, I recognize. But instead of being improved in its style, it has been systematically eliminated (cf. 17 and 22 July). I am worried about the way Wikipedia is censored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.250.122.172 ( talk) 07:29, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
It would be much more honest if criticism to Sola Scriptura included the Bible versus science. Parts of Genesis, for example, contradict the Theory of Evolution. If you rely on the Bible as solely source of truth, then Genesis description of creation would be correct. The author 'comfortably' skipped this criticism to avoid further criticism to the SOLAS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.236.55.29 ( talk) 06:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm an expert in the history of dogma as an historical theologian (at least by Wikipedia's standards, no slight intended - I am a Wikipedian, after all - as I'm not a professor or doctor, but I'm published and have an STB, but regardless of WP:CRED, I have a library of references and vast knowledge here), and, although the Reformation is not my strongest area (the high middle ages and scholasticism is), I will give attention to a rewrite of this article. Since the article has been tagged for months, it seems no greater expert - and there are undoubtedly many, and probably many Wikipedians counted amongst them - will come along.
Before beginning, I would like to solicit suggestions about what is wrong, and what should be done about it, while adding that, at the present time, in addition to what the article is tagged for, there is a strong and explicit Protestant, and a more mild Calvinist (yes, one can be biased in favor of Protestantism in general and against Lutheran and other magisterial reformation understanding) perspective and bias to this article, which I will rectify. The article is small and manageable enough a full rewrite is doable, and is likely in order: I do not desire to merely add Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Thomist, and Molinist responses, but to discuss the entire thing in the light of NPOV.
An example of this is the statement in the lead that "the five solas militate against Catholicism", where Catholics agree, without condition, on sola gratia (salvation is through grace alone) and solus Christus (only Christ can save), and, with a change in emphasis, sola fide ("faith without works is dead", but, equally, one without faith can not be saved, and faith is the found of all good works, and good works done by those not in a state of grace are sinful, cf. Augustine), and soli Deo gloria (latria to God alone, but dulia or veneration to the Mother of God foremost, and saints secondarily; neither is given to any living man, but the hierarchy is respected) - the only one that militates against Catholic teaching is sola Scriptura, where Scripture is seen as independent of Tradition. For example, the Catholic views are mainly three: that Scripture is a part of Tradition, that Scripture and Tradition are equal, or that Scripture is superior to Tradition: the latter of which is nearly identical to most Protestant understandings, as Calvinism, Arminianism, the Hypostatic Union, Trinitarianism, the Hymnal, Orders of Worship, types of hermeneutics, etc. are all examples of tradition (the "norma normata", or "the norm that is normed"), but which, in Protestantism, are subservient to Scripture (the "norma normans", the "norming norm")
This is already becoming "tl;dr", so I will not here put how I believe historical background and a more balanced and well-sourced explication of the solae will improve the article immensely. St John Chrysostom Δόξα τω Θεώ 16:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
(Moving this down from page top, to co-locate it with the formal move-proposal -- next section. Please don't add anything to this section; instead, add to the actual discussion below.)
I propose this page be renamed (moved) to reflect the fact that it is actually about the original Three reformation solae, with the additional two (plus others) being modern additions. I already attempted the move but it was reverted as being undiscussed. Fair enough; lets discuss.
First I'll note that the reversion has done more than rename. The opening statement now reads: "The Five solae or five solas are a set of principles held by theologians and churchmen[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] to be central to the Protestant Reformation", with the note about the 20th Century augmentation being deleted. Unfortunately that statement is now simply factually incorrect as evidenced by the list of citations that the reverter left in place. I doubt you could find *any* theologian or churchman of any learning who would claim that central to the Protestant Reformation were *five* solae. Whether modern Protestants feel that in fact there are more differences between their modern view and the views of the modern RC church is irrelevant. This article is about the Protestant Reformation concepts.
Overall then, the reason I think the move is merited is that there are essentially two different concepts at play. One is the set of (three) solae that pertain to the Protestant Reformation. The second is additional modern solae (popularly two, but sometimes more) that were added to that list in the 20th century but which few if any Reformation scholars would accept were part of the dynamic of the historical set of events collectively known as the Reformation.
So I think there are two options. One is to have two pages. The first would describe the established historical facts -- i.e. three solae *of the Reformation*. The second would refer to the 20th century augmentation of that list of three -- typically two solae that had nothing to do with Luther, Calvin, or anyone else back then. But I'm pretty sure that two such pages would reasonably lead to calls for a merge.
So the second option is to have a single page handling both concepts. But it seems to me that for historical accuracy, it should have the three Reformation solae front and center, and the two 20th-Century solae as additional commentary. That in fact is how the page looked even prior to my move and edits. The only problem then was the title -- the article clearly was about the three solae, but was named for five. Hence my move. Thomask0 ( talk) 00:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
One other point. The reason given for reverting the earlier move was that "'Five solae' is by far the most common designation". It would be hard to prove that either way, but a quick Google search of "five solas" and "three solas" shows roughly twice as many hits for the latter. Thomask0 ( talk) 00:48, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The procedure suggests that even contested moves can at least in the first instance be discussed on the Talk page. No point in escalating if we can discuss and agree here, no? Thomask0 ( talk) 01:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
There's a danger of an edit war here, so I'm not going to revert TW's reversion of my reversion of ... etc until we thrash out the issues. But let's discuss the point in hand. As TM said: "saying "it is held to be central to the Reformation" doesn't mean it dates from the Reformation". That's true. It could indeed be pointing to the fact that *modern* Protestants *now* hold that there were five issues of concern, but it remains the case that the Reformation itself has historically seen to be based on only three. So we have two facts (undisputed I assume). First, there were three solae behind the reformation; second, some modern Protestants now think there were two more. Nevertheless, the article needs to reflect *both* facts, else we need two articles. Removing the phrase about the extra two being 20th Century additions is depriving the reader of valuable information -- namely that first there were three, and then (and, crucially, *only recently*) there were five.
Thomask0 (
talk)
02:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Don't want to let this die off without a decision either way. As I see it, there are three plausible options: keep the page as-is -- i.e. Five solas; change it to Three solas; or remove the number entirely, making it something like "Reformation solas". Comparing the first two then, I'd argue that if we're going to have a number, it needs to be "Three". Of the references on the page that give a number, the largest is to "three", not "five" (or "seven). Also, unscientific as it is, Google searches show that the "three version" is roughly twice as common as the "five" version. "Three solas" gives over 0.5 million results, whereas "Five solas" gives under 0.25 million. "Three solae" and "Five solae" are much closer (and much less, with Google suggesting in each that perhaps the searcher meant "solas" and not "solae"), but Three is still the greater. Looking instead at "Reformation solas", and thereby removing the number from the title, I see pros and cons. On the pro side, I think it would be using the full strength of Wikipedia to reflect, in a way that something like Britannica just cannot do, the development of the topic over time. Clearly today, even though "three" is still more commonly used, "five" clearly is used a lot. And for all we know, "seven" could become the preferred. By removing the number in the name, the article itself can then speak to the details of the change, without having any specific number reified by being part of the title. On the con side though, I see two objections. First, what I've just described sounds a bit like original research. The second is related, namely that I imagine if we were to get actual Reformation scholars to contribute, we would find that most if not all would say that "three" is The Number.
Summary, I'd rank the options as follows (most preferred first):
Comments? Thomask0 ( talk) 18:07, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There doesn't appear to be any consensus for where to move the article, although there does appear to be general agreement that it should be moved. I suggest having a discussion about the best alternative title, then having a second RM on the one decided as being the best way forward. Number 5 7 23:41, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Five solae →
Three solae – The article text (other than the recently edited opening sentence) is written first as a description of the original three solas, with the other (2 or 4) solas described as additions. The bulk of references that refer to any number, refer to three, not five. Overall, the title most appropriate to the current text, should mention "three", not "five". The only sensible alternative to a rename is to rewrite the article (including removing a large proportion of the citations) to suit the current title. Google Ngram gives no hits for "five solas", but gives several for "three solas", dating back to 1865. --Relisted.
Andrewa (
talk) 16:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Thomask0 (
talk)
20:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Web Search | Books | Ngram | |
---|---|---|---|
"Three solas" | 2,940 | 295 | no hits |
"Five solas" | 57,400 | 1,120 | no hits |
"Three solae" | 527 | 25 | no hits |
"Five solae" | 5,400 | 299 | no hits |
Three solas | 522,000 | 26,100 | several hits |
Five solas | 234,000 | 15,100 | no hits |
Three solae | 56,800 | 2,470 | no hits |
Five solae | 42,000 | 2010 | no hits |
It's clear that quoting the phrase in question gives very different results from not quoting. It's hard to know which to give greater credence to, but I suspect it has to be the quoted versions (unquoted 'three solas' for example is throwing up a bunch of stuff about utterly different subjects). So based purely on the above results, I think my move proposal loses some strength. My inclination is (not least because it seems that you, StAnselm, and I are the only ones bothering about this) to withdraw the move proposal and leave things as they are. I think the only other route is to get some actual reformation scholars to voice an opinion. I still have a strong hunch that they'd tell us the "three" formulation is the more correct, but we can't base things on my hunch. Thoughts? Thomask0 ( talk) 21:00, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
FYI, you'd asked about the 1865 Ngram result. My mistake; it was 1752. It was "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" by Edward Fisher. But there's no preview to let us see how he used the phrase, so this may be a red herring. Thomask0 ( talk) 21:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Would that work? Concerning your comment about perhaps there being a different number for Lutheran vs Reformed, I couldn't say. Sounds like we'd maybe be verging on original research there, no? Thomask0 ( talk) 03:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
How about just sola as the article title? We would need to make a case for primary meaning of course. However the Norwegian municipality seems most unlikely to be the primary meaning if there is one, so there's room for improvement there as well, either way. This would also solve the problem of competing plural forms and fit WP:plural well. Andrewa ( talk) 16:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, if no case can be made for primary meaning (which surprises me, as the three solas are very often mentioned in sermons I hear in the Uniting Church in Australia which I attend), then how about sola (theology) as an article title?
I'm considering whether to raise a separate RM for the Norwegian town and the DAB at sola (disambiguation). If this topic isn't the primary meaning of sola then probably there isn't one. Andrewa ( talk) 12:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
-- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 01:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
@ StAnselm:, @ Thomask0:, @ John Carter:, et al., there has been long ongoing discussion regarding the needs of this article, and what an expert might bring.
As a scholar, but not an historian, and so as an outsider to this article, looking to it as an encyclopedic source for the subject, I added a "reason" to the expert tag, for the consideration of the editors here.
I added a tag suggesting the lede was inadequate, because to my reading, it talks about the title and not the subject, per se (failing to list and mention what the three and five are), that is, failing to summarize, adequately, the content of the article.
I also added a series of article and section tags pointing to the underlying problems of the article—that it is someone's original work and research, or it is otherwise plagiarised—as there now appear, save one sentence of the lede, and two additional short sections, no substantive portions of the main text of the article on the 3-5 solae that are properly sourced.
Hence, for each of the two main sections, on the 3 and 5, I added unreferenced (or single reference) and original research section tags, then noted these same issues at the top of the article. (If large blocks of text appear completely unreferenced, they are someone's unique synthesis of the material and therefore in violation of WP:VERIFY and WP:OR and/or they are plagiarised, and in violation of WP:COPYVIO.)
For the sources that do appear, attached to one sentence of the lede, to the history, and to the short section on possible new solae, these citations,
note the mysterious presence of shortened forms of citations without appearance of long forms, and appearance of both a citation and a reference section.
I therefore supported the call for an expert, which I summarized as calling for a "strong scholarly presentation of the meaning and uses of the title term, from its original inception as one, two, and three solae..., to its current, widely presented construction as five…:", that is, noting the article "lacks content and complete secondary sources making clear, at least, a number of aspects relating to the various phrases, their grammar and presentations, their documentation, their early "canonicalizations," their evolution to the modern five, and the current uses, and misuses, of the terms."
I stress again, that any appearance of information that is without clear, complete documentation, is in violation of WP policy. In my view, it is less than useless, it is actually harmful to the article's development—it drives away experts, who do not have time to review line by line, the unsourced information, for accuracy, or to post hoc source it, and it encourages incoming inexperienced editors that it is acceptable to add further content to these sections without sources.
So to close, I would say two things:
First, procedurally, I would suggest someone respected here at the article begin work in a sandbox, and craft a short 5-10 sentence paragraph on the 3 solae, based on good secondary sources, and then remove what is currently here to talk, swapping in the short scholarly stub. Editors with time and interest can then look to place removed sentences back in, with sourcing, as the content of each sentence is verified. Meanwhile, editors arriving will find, e.g., a ten-sentence, five-inline citation paragraph, where the standards for editorial addition are clear. The same then goes for the additional two solae, that compose the full 5 solae of the title subject.
Second, if this radical bold editing approach is taken, I would offer the following, again as an interested outsider, of things that the article may yet present and explain:
Some of this is already present, esp. in the history section. (The sections on the solae, per se, are largely unusable.) Perhaps the five independent "sola" articles have good sources?
To close I will just say what brought me here, so you understand what this outsider sought. I am serving as an outside lay editor a short layperson's religious volume, for a church leader/colleague. That volume mentions three of the five (2 of the first 3, and 1 of the latter 2). I came to the "Five solae" article (impressed that the historically correct plural was used), wanting to see if it could be used as a reference in that volume, but also with a desire to annotate/correct his volume's text, with its odd 2 + 1 solae compilation.
I wondered if there was any historical or scholarly basis for the odd compilation, also noting in it the use of "fides" instead of "fide," and "sola" instead of "solus" with "Christus," and therefore needing to offer correction. I am afraid I could not use the WP article to do much with authority in this other volume's editing, nor could I suggest it as a reference for the book. Hence the time put in here to support improvement of the article.
Cheers, good luck, whomsoever chooses to take on the radical bold editing. Le Prof
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2601:246:C700:558:E81D:8A3:695D:328F ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
The quote “all things necessary for salvation and about faith and life are taught in the Bible with sufficient clarity so that the ordinary believer can find it there and understand it” only has "Reformed Dogmatics , 2:209–10." listed as its source. Does anyone know which specific Reformed Dogmatics the quote is from? (hope this is the correct way to ask this btw, I'm new here) Ep19291 ( talk) 18:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
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Hi Philip, welcome to Wikipedia! Your idea of listing the five "Solas" in a separate article seems logical, but you might consider consolidating here information from other articles that already list some or all of the Solas - such as Protestantism and Calvinism. One way to find these references is to go to the two Sola articles (at least, that I'm aware of), Sola fide and Sola scriptura, and use the "What links here" button to see the numerous existing references. Later, Harris7 17:57, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
A little history would be helpful here. When was each of these first propounded? When did each first appear in print? Which denominations believe each? When were they first grouped together? Who named them the five "solas"? - Nunh-huh 04:19, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
In the page history, AllanBz deleted Flex's mentioning the doctrines of Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate with this comment: "Flex, you were the one who wanted neutrality. Mary as co-redemptrix is not Catholic doctrine despite many who wish it so."
Flex's response:
Sorry, one other issue I needed to address: AllanBz is right about the issue of doctrine. RCC doctrine is often influenced by what the people believe (as was the case with the doctrine of the Assumption) but it is never actually doctrine until the Church says it is. There is actually a special phrase to cover such a "grassroots" doctrine: Sensus fidelium or “consensus of the faithful.” However, even if every Catholic signs off that he/she believes a sensus fidelium belief, it's still not Catholic doctrine. (Although, you might argue such event would count as an ecumenical council, which would make it doctrine.) As I noted above, doctrine is made by the Pope speaking ex cathedra, or by the promulgation of an official document (encyclical, constitution, bull, etc.) that effectively says "This is official doctrine." Honestly, it really is a fine distinction; doctrine is doctrine when the people in power say "this is doctrine." Until that time, anyone from the Pope on down can speak of it (as in the case of JPII using "co-redemptrix") without it actually being doctrine, as long as he (the pope) doesn't say "this is doctrine." Certainly, individuals may privately believe what they wish, however, if they publicly dissent from Church teaching, they become heretics. On this particular issue, it isn't so much that believing Mary is co-redemptrix is against the official Church teaching, but rather, there just isn't an official Church teaching on the matter. It would be incorrect to state the matter as though the Church accepts the belief. A statement to the effect of "While the Church has never officially stated that Mary is co-redemptrix, many Catholics mantain this belief" would be factual. Essjay (talk) 00:48, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
A very tidy summation, which I think will stand scrutiny. Mkmcconn (Talk) 14:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. For example, "Faith and good works yield justification" is not true for baptised infants in Catholicism: they don't have either. Nor is it true that without some faith an adult who is baptized will be able to recieve much benefit. After conversion, the faith+good works don't yield justification for Catholics, instead Catholics try to merit that freely given gracious justification: i.e. Catholics convert on the merits of Christ alone, but afterwards they they work to deserve his grace because God must be served and we want the reward of 'well done good and faithful servant'. I don't know if you can see the difference there? (MINI-RANT: The whole point of the Catholic approach is that this kind of reductive sloganizing is a useless distraction that causes arguments. There is grace, there is conversion, there is a life lived in love: all form a unity. The New Testament gives about 10 different things that 'cause' salvation, but none of them should be taken alone. Love is frequently mentioned for example as necessary, in some way. The cheeseparing approach goes beyond what God revealed, IMHO, and that is why there is so much arguemnt about it.) Rick Jelliffe ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:32, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I added a "section" with an attempt at providing a little historical context. It seemed to me like a little something like this was needed in addition to just listing the Five Solas. But I consider this up for discussion or improvements. Regards, Jim Ellis 15:56, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)
I would welcome interested editors from the Calvinist, Reformed, and other Protestant traditions to weigh in with their own interpretation of these five solas. The Lutheran position should not be presented as the only POV although I have striven to make statements on the Lutheran position NPOV. We may find that we have more unanimity than we may have thought. It may be helpful for Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox editors to correct any misrepresentation of their doctrine. Classical Thomist Roman Catholic doctrine holds to the sola gratia.-- Drboisclair 20:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Certain Anglican scholars have suggested that there should be two additional solas on the list : Sola ecclesia and Sola caritas. It might be a good idea if appropriate information were added about these two other proposed solas. [1] [2] [3] ADM ( talk) 05:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Just a note: the first four mottos are generally stated in the ablative case (hence "fide" rather than "fides") and translated as a prepositional phrase starting with "by" or "through." Thus, "Solus Christus" is usually rendered "Solo Christo."
Would someone mind explaining the Latin grammar behind "Soli Deo gloria"? I've seen it cast that way a significant majority of the time, but the genitive/(dative/ablative)/(nominative/ablative) construction doesn't make very much sense.
It seems as if one of the following would be more appropriate:
Does anyone know 1) which case "Deo" is in (dative or ablative), 2) which case "gloria" is in (nominative or ablative), and/or 3) what phrasing makes these noun endings make sense?
Thanks! 72.218.206.109 ( talk) 16:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The idea of Luther having Three (Faith, Grace, Scripture) instead of Five Solas is a pretty common one. Why is there no mention of this, or pointing it out as a common misconception if it is a misconception (I personally don't know as some sources I see say 3, others 5, I came to this article to find out and there's nothing on this)? Flygongengar ( talk) 06:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
You would need to provide a reference to his writing, unless you mean this is an analytical truth not a historical one? Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 07:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I several times tried to add a criticism section based on the book "Rome, sweet home". It was not completed, I recognize. But instead of being improved in its style, it has been systematically eliminated (cf. 17 and 22 July). I am worried about the way Wikipedia is censored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.250.122.172 ( talk) 07:29, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
It would be much more honest if criticism to Sola Scriptura included the Bible versus science. Parts of Genesis, for example, contradict the Theory of Evolution. If you rely on the Bible as solely source of truth, then Genesis description of creation would be correct. The author 'comfortably' skipped this criticism to avoid further criticism to the SOLAS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.236.55.29 ( talk) 06:17, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm an expert in the history of dogma as an historical theologian (at least by Wikipedia's standards, no slight intended - I am a Wikipedian, after all - as I'm not a professor or doctor, but I'm published and have an STB, but regardless of WP:CRED, I have a library of references and vast knowledge here), and, although the Reformation is not my strongest area (the high middle ages and scholasticism is), I will give attention to a rewrite of this article. Since the article has been tagged for months, it seems no greater expert - and there are undoubtedly many, and probably many Wikipedians counted amongst them - will come along.
Before beginning, I would like to solicit suggestions about what is wrong, and what should be done about it, while adding that, at the present time, in addition to what the article is tagged for, there is a strong and explicit Protestant, and a more mild Calvinist (yes, one can be biased in favor of Protestantism in general and against Lutheran and other magisterial reformation understanding) perspective and bias to this article, which I will rectify. The article is small and manageable enough a full rewrite is doable, and is likely in order: I do not desire to merely add Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Thomist, and Molinist responses, but to discuss the entire thing in the light of NPOV.
An example of this is the statement in the lead that "the five solas militate against Catholicism", where Catholics agree, without condition, on sola gratia (salvation is through grace alone) and solus Christus (only Christ can save), and, with a change in emphasis, sola fide ("faith without works is dead", but, equally, one without faith can not be saved, and faith is the found of all good works, and good works done by those not in a state of grace are sinful, cf. Augustine), and soli Deo gloria (latria to God alone, but dulia or veneration to the Mother of God foremost, and saints secondarily; neither is given to any living man, but the hierarchy is respected) - the only one that militates against Catholic teaching is sola Scriptura, where Scripture is seen as independent of Tradition. For example, the Catholic views are mainly three: that Scripture is a part of Tradition, that Scripture and Tradition are equal, or that Scripture is superior to Tradition: the latter of which is nearly identical to most Protestant understandings, as Calvinism, Arminianism, the Hypostatic Union, Trinitarianism, the Hymnal, Orders of Worship, types of hermeneutics, etc. are all examples of tradition (the "norma normata", or "the norm that is normed"), but which, in Protestantism, are subservient to Scripture (the "norma normans", the "norming norm")
This is already becoming "tl;dr", so I will not here put how I believe historical background and a more balanced and well-sourced explication of the solae will improve the article immensely. St John Chrysostom Δόξα τω Θεώ 16:09, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
(Moving this down from page top, to co-locate it with the formal move-proposal -- next section. Please don't add anything to this section; instead, add to the actual discussion below.)
I propose this page be renamed (moved) to reflect the fact that it is actually about the original Three reformation solae, with the additional two (plus others) being modern additions. I already attempted the move but it was reverted as being undiscussed. Fair enough; lets discuss.
First I'll note that the reversion has done more than rename. The opening statement now reads: "The Five solae or five solas are a set of principles held by theologians and churchmen[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] to be central to the Protestant Reformation", with the note about the 20th Century augmentation being deleted. Unfortunately that statement is now simply factually incorrect as evidenced by the list of citations that the reverter left in place. I doubt you could find *any* theologian or churchman of any learning who would claim that central to the Protestant Reformation were *five* solae. Whether modern Protestants feel that in fact there are more differences between their modern view and the views of the modern RC church is irrelevant. This article is about the Protestant Reformation concepts.
Overall then, the reason I think the move is merited is that there are essentially two different concepts at play. One is the set of (three) solae that pertain to the Protestant Reformation. The second is additional modern solae (popularly two, but sometimes more) that were added to that list in the 20th century but which few if any Reformation scholars would accept were part of the dynamic of the historical set of events collectively known as the Reformation.
So I think there are two options. One is to have two pages. The first would describe the established historical facts -- i.e. three solae *of the Reformation*. The second would refer to the 20th century augmentation of that list of three -- typically two solae that had nothing to do with Luther, Calvin, or anyone else back then. But I'm pretty sure that two such pages would reasonably lead to calls for a merge.
So the second option is to have a single page handling both concepts. But it seems to me that for historical accuracy, it should have the three Reformation solae front and center, and the two 20th-Century solae as additional commentary. That in fact is how the page looked even prior to my move and edits. The only problem then was the title -- the article clearly was about the three solae, but was named for five. Hence my move. Thomask0 ( talk) 00:39, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
One other point. The reason given for reverting the earlier move was that "'Five solae' is by far the most common designation". It would be hard to prove that either way, but a quick Google search of "five solas" and "three solas" shows roughly twice as many hits for the latter. Thomask0 ( talk) 00:48, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
The procedure suggests that even contested moves can at least in the first instance be discussed on the Talk page. No point in escalating if we can discuss and agree here, no? Thomask0 ( talk) 01:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
There's a danger of an edit war here, so I'm not going to revert TW's reversion of my reversion of ... etc until we thrash out the issues. But let's discuss the point in hand. As TM said: "saying "it is held to be central to the Reformation" doesn't mean it dates from the Reformation". That's true. It could indeed be pointing to the fact that *modern* Protestants *now* hold that there were five issues of concern, but it remains the case that the Reformation itself has historically seen to be based on only three. So we have two facts (undisputed I assume). First, there were three solae behind the reformation; second, some modern Protestants now think there were two more. Nevertheless, the article needs to reflect *both* facts, else we need two articles. Removing the phrase about the extra two being 20th Century additions is depriving the reader of valuable information -- namely that first there were three, and then (and, crucially, *only recently*) there were five.
Thomask0 (
talk)
02:13, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
Don't want to let this die off without a decision either way. As I see it, there are three plausible options: keep the page as-is -- i.e. Five solas; change it to Three solas; or remove the number entirely, making it something like "Reformation solas". Comparing the first two then, I'd argue that if we're going to have a number, it needs to be "Three". Of the references on the page that give a number, the largest is to "three", not "five" (or "seven). Also, unscientific as it is, Google searches show that the "three version" is roughly twice as common as the "five" version. "Three solas" gives over 0.5 million results, whereas "Five solas" gives under 0.25 million. "Three solae" and "Five solae" are much closer (and much less, with Google suggesting in each that perhaps the searcher meant "solas" and not "solae"), but Three is still the greater. Looking instead at "Reformation solas", and thereby removing the number from the title, I see pros and cons. On the pro side, I think it would be using the full strength of Wikipedia to reflect, in a way that something like Britannica just cannot do, the development of the topic over time. Clearly today, even though "three" is still more commonly used, "five" clearly is used a lot. And for all we know, "seven" could become the preferred. By removing the number in the name, the article itself can then speak to the details of the change, without having any specific number reified by being part of the title. On the con side though, I see two objections. First, what I've just described sounds a bit like original research. The second is related, namely that I imagine if we were to get actual Reformation scholars to contribute, we would find that most if not all would say that "three" is The Number.
Summary, I'd rank the options as follows (most preferred first):
Comments? Thomask0 ( talk) 18:07, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There doesn't appear to be any consensus for where to move the article, although there does appear to be general agreement that it should be moved. I suggest having a discussion about the best alternative title, then having a second RM on the one decided as being the best way forward. Number 5 7 23:41, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Five solae →
Three solae – The article text (other than the recently edited opening sentence) is written first as a description of the original three solas, with the other (2 or 4) solas described as additions. The bulk of references that refer to any number, refer to three, not five. Overall, the title most appropriate to the current text, should mention "three", not "five". The only sensible alternative to a rename is to rewrite the article (including removing a large proportion of the citations) to suit the current title. Google Ngram gives no hits for "five solas", but gives several for "three solas", dating back to 1865. --Relisted.
Andrewa (
talk) 16:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Thomask0 (
talk)
20:42, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Web Search | Books | Ngram | |
---|---|---|---|
"Three solas" | 2,940 | 295 | no hits |
"Five solas" | 57,400 | 1,120 | no hits |
"Three solae" | 527 | 25 | no hits |
"Five solae" | 5,400 | 299 | no hits |
Three solas | 522,000 | 26,100 | several hits |
Five solas | 234,000 | 15,100 | no hits |
Three solae | 56,800 | 2,470 | no hits |
Five solae | 42,000 | 2010 | no hits |
It's clear that quoting the phrase in question gives very different results from not quoting. It's hard to know which to give greater credence to, but I suspect it has to be the quoted versions (unquoted 'three solas' for example is throwing up a bunch of stuff about utterly different subjects). So based purely on the above results, I think my move proposal loses some strength. My inclination is (not least because it seems that you, StAnselm, and I are the only ones bothering about this) to withdraw the move proposal and leave things as they are. I think the only other route is to get some actual reformation scholars to voice an opinion. I still have a strong hunch that they'd tell us the "three" formulation is the more correct, but we can't base things on my hunch. Thoughts? Thomask0 ( talk) 21:00, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
FYI, you'd asked about the 1865 Ngram result. My mistake; it was 1752. It was "The Marrow of Modern Divinity" by Edward Fisher. But there's no preview to let us see how he used the phrase, so this may be a red herring. Thomask0 ( talk) 21:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Would that work? Concerning your comment about perhaps there being a different number for Lutheran vs Reformed, I couldn't say. Sounds like we'd maybe be verging on original research there, no? Thomask0 ( talk) 03:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
How about just sola as the article title? We would need to make a case for primary meaning of course. However the Norwegian municipality seems most unlikely to be the primary meaning if there is one, so there's room for improvement there as well, either way. This would also solve the problem of competing plural forms and fit WP:plural well. Andrewa ( talk) 16:45, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, if no case can be made for primary meaning (which surprises me, as the three solas are very often mentioned in sermons I hear in the Uniting Church in Australia which I attend), then how about sola (theology) as an article title?
I'm considering whether to raise a separate RM for the Norwegian town and the DAB at sola (disambiguation). If this topic isn't the primary meaning of sola then probably there isn't one. Andrewa ( talk) 12:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
-- SmokeyJoe ( talk) 01:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
@ StAnselm:, @ Thomask0:, @ John Carter:, et al., there has been long ongoing discussion regarding the needs of this article, and what an expert might bring.
As a scholar, but not an historian, and so as an outsider to this article, looking to it as an encyclopedic source for the subject, I added a "reason" to the expert tag, for the consideration of the editors here.
I added a tag suggesting the lede was inadequate, because to my reading, it talks about the title and not the subject, per se (failing to list and mention what the three and five are), that is, failing to summarize, adequately, the content of the article.
I also added a series of article and section tags pointing to the underlying problems of the article—that it is someone's original work and research, or it is otherwise plagiarised—as there now appear, save one sentence of the lede, and two additional short sections, no substantive portions of the main text of the article on the 3-5 solae that are properly sourced.
Hence, for each of the two main sections, on the 3 and 5, I added unreferenced (or single reference) and original research section tags, then noted these same issues at the top of the article. (If large blocks of text appear completely unreferenced, they are someone's unique synthesis of the material and therefore in violation of WP:VERIFY and WP:OR and/or they are plagiarised, and in violation of WP:COPYVIO.)
For the sources that do appear, attached to one sentence of the lede, to the history, and to the short section on possible new solae, these citations,
note the mysterious presence of shortened forms of citations without appearance of long forms, and appearance of both a citation and a reference section.
I therefore supported the call for an expert, which I summarized as calling for a "strong scholarly presentation of the meaning and uses of the title term, from its original inception as one, two, and three solae..., to its current, widely presented construction as five…:", that is, noting the article "lacks content and complete secondary sources making clear, at least, a number of aspects relating to the various phrases, their grammar and presentations, their documentation, their early "canonicalizations," their evolution to the modern five, and the current uses, and misuses, of the terms."
I stress again, that any appearance of information that is without clear, complete documentation, is in violation of WP policy. In my view, it is less than useless, it is actually harmful to the article's development—it drives away experts, who do not have time to review line by line, the unsourced information, for accuracy, or to post hoc source it, and it encourages incoming inexperienced editors that it is acceptable to add further content to these sections without sources.
So to close, I would say two things:
First, procedurally, I would suggest someone respected here at the article begin work in a sandbox, and craft a short 5-10 sentence paragraph on the 3 solae, based on good secondary sources, and then remove what is currently here to talk, swapping in the short scholarly stub. Editors with time and interest can then look to place removed sentences back in, with sourcing, as the content of each sentence is verified. Meanwhile, editors arriving will find, e.g., a ten-sentence, five-inline citation paragraph, where the standards for editorial addition are clear. The same then goes for the additional two solae, that compose the full 5 solae of the title subject.
Second, if this radical bold editing approach is taken, I would offer the following, again as an interested outsider, of things that the article may yet present and explain:
Some of this is already present, esp. in the history section. (The sections on the solae, per se, are largely unusable.) Perhaps the five independent "sola" articles have good sources?
To close I will just say what brought me here, so you understand what this outsider sought. I am serving as an outside lay editor a short layperson's religious volume, for a church leader/colleague. That volume mentions three of the five (2 of the first 3, and 1 of the latter 2). I came to the "Five solae" article (impressed that the historically correct plural was used), wanting to see if it could be used as a reference in that volume, but also with a desire to annotate/correct his volume's text, with its odd 2 + 1 solae compilation.
I wondered if there was any historical or scholarly basis for the odd compilation, also noting in it the use of "fides" instead of "fide," and "sola" instead of "solus" with "Christus," and therefore needing to offer correction. I am afraid I could not use the WP article to do much with authority in this other volume's editing, nor could I suggest it as a reference for the book. Hence the time put in here to support improvement of the article.
Cheers, good luck, whomsoever chooses to take on the radical bold editing. Le Prof
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2601:246:C700:558:E81D:8A3:695D:328F ( talk) 21:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
The quote “all things necessary for salvation and about faith and life are taught in the Bible with sufficient clarity so that the ordinary believer can find it there and understand it” only has "Reformed Dogmatics , 2:209–10." listed as its source. Does anyone know which specific Reformed Dogmatics the quote is from? (hope this is the correct way to ask this btw, I'm new here) Ep19291 ( talk) 18:17, 2 April 2022 (UTC)