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Archive 1 |
Please would you be so kind not to remove the (TAS) in brackets after the link. If you know how to link it directly to 'Thought as a system' under his entry, then replace 'David Bohm' with 'Thought as a System', otherwise leave this abbrevation (TAS) so that it is known why the link is present.
Move -- Lacatosias 07:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move -- It's irrelevant pseudoscience from a well-known crank. It's an embarassment to mix it in with genuine scholarship. Alienus 15:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move -- Ig0774 18:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move It mars an otherwise superb article. My objections have as much to do with the poor quality of the writing as they do with the topic. Moncrief 23:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move or delete. Even if relevant, true and possibly interesting, it would have to be rewritten, and possibly reworked altogether to have any place in wikipedia. DanielDemaret 10:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Move, or even better delete. It makes several undocumented claims, refers to telekinesis as proof and attempts to steal credibility from quantum physics. Complete BS. -- AndersFeder 10:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Leave it under this entry (it is not so long and it is more than relevant to the subject).Ndru01 10:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
to know what you were voting about, it should at least stay here on discussion:Ndru01 15:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"As of yet, the English language has not coined more specific words for the exact experiences and endeavors people do in their minds on a daily basis."
Is this accurate, you think? I'm pretty sure that some dominant schools of thought would say that indeed each and every word of the English language are artifacts of people's experience of thought. Mental experiences that go beyond language are either too subjective or too vague to find a linguistic formation but are not truly different from the experiences associated with words. -- AndersFeder 10:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to new think (disambiguation) page, but perhaps think should redirect there, instead of here. — johndburger 05:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think there are far too many links in the See Also section—isn't a link to the Thinking Portal sufficient? What's the Portal for if not to collect links???
In the sentence "Thought or thinking is a mental process which allows beings to model the world", shouldn't the word "thought" have an article before it? What I mean is it should be "a thought", not just "thought". Agen0 12:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ndru01 keeps trying to insert this section. The problem is that it's entirely uncited and, frankly, it's psuedoscientific gibberish. It has no place here. Alienus 22:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The following was deleted without comment by ndru01, so I've restored it:
Why haven't you restore my question after that too ("what exactly is unclear/poor?"), and the initial request that the section don't be removed. In the meantime I made some slight change and it might be not so 'unclear',so that vicious comment might be completely unnecessary.Ndru01 00:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Bohm (who is cited which you ignored) and Sheldrake are scientists. Serious as can be. Competent enough in the subject or not, you should eventually leave some tag and not just remove something that you might not understand properly. The section is more serious than the rest of the article. Ndru01 02:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Sheldrake is a joke, and Bohm doesn't support your religious interpretation of science. Mentioning someone is not the same thing as offering a citation, but that's probably the sort of academic fine point that goes right over your head. The section is a joke and does not belong here or anywhere else. I will continue to remove it unless a consensus appears on this Talk page to support your suggestions. Alienus 04:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
lg, the material seems related to modern gnosticism, if that helps put it in perspective. Alienus 07:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
How is telekinesis mentioned in context with thoughts illogical!? It is perfectly logical and in context. I sign my posts exactly as suggested, with 4 tildes at the end, so I don't know what Alienus is talking about. It doesn't say that it's a must of hyperlinking the signature. Why should I waste my time on that when its not a must. Bohm is exactly cited, check under his entry, and it underlines the point of the section, that a thought is not just 'energy' (that we already know from the fact that telekinesis is a reality), but energetic 'something' (call it -entity, unit, form, object, meme, in any case a - system)... Sheldrake deals with forms (morphe), and he uses that term for it. And every form IS a system (some sub-form being its element), every intelligent person should know that, and Bohm clearly yells out to everyone's face that thought is a system. So there you have it-> thought-(abstract)form-system. Ndru01 10:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Howevere, since I'm not going to succeed in depragamming you here, I suggest another vote:
The section is not 'filled' with anything, the wording is fairly rational and moderate (and I don't need to be 'depragammed', as Alienus or whoever suggested), and it is not poor. Maybe it wasn't very clear to many people but still it can be more nicely and politely said than you did. If people remove something that is good-intentional and relevant, why shouldn't something bad-intentional plus unkind be removed too (at least for sake of rephrasing it). Ndru01 23:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
ps. It is unclear who suggested the vote. It now looks like I did since it is immediately after my signed text, while that someone's sentence is unsigned. That is another 'violation' (not by me), isn't it?Ndru01 00:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Since you're so curious, one european in earthly terms (actually 2 european, one middle-european and one south-european since I'm from a mixed marriage and learnt both as a child). But, in truth, probably K-Paxian.Ndru01 06:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the whole point has become moot, as I cannnot find the article you all are referring to. The Silent Russian 06:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I came across this section and thought this part: "Powerful neo-conceptualizing cannot compare in scope to the vast intricacies of past development from which modern thought has evolved." I'm sure this can be improved a bit, it doesn't sound right in an encyclopedia article somehow. -- WikiSlasher 11:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What is the Speed of Thought?
Around 300 milliseconds. That's how long it took a volunteer to begin to understand a pictured object. Add to that another 250 to 450 milliseconds to fully comprehend what it was. Total speed of thought: between 550 and 750 milliseconds.
Such are the results coming out of work conducted by John Hopkins scientists seeking to measure rates of comprehension. "This information has been difficult to acquire," says neurologist and team leader John Hart, "even with different combinations of behavioural tests, electrical recordings and imaging studies such as PET scans."
Yet by taking advantage of a unique opportunity afforded by a patient scheduled for tests using electrodes surgically placed on his brain, the researchers have moved one step closer to "building theories of higher mental activity." Until now, the speed of cognitive operations (including language processing) has been the missing ingredient.
Reporting their findings in the May 25 Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, the researchers describe how the patient was asked to name and categorize a variety of pictures and words. By way of a grid of 174 electrodes, his brain activity was then monitored. The speed of comprehension was far quicker for objects that were already familiar to him.
"The data, obtained within a single stage at a single site in the brain, are further evidence that information accumulates gradually in the brain, rather than in a strictly all-or-none fashion," says Hart.
He adds that understanding this process of accumulation could help scientists understand comprehension and word loss from disorders such as stroke or Alzheimer's disease. _____________________________________________________ Can someone make an article on the Speed of thought? It seems really interesting. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/23027 74.167.170.215 13:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The task of thinking is to form a picture of what the world is like. Ideally the picture should contain everything in the world in it, at least everything that we know, in a form that is easy for us to understand. A holistic view of the situation is such an easy form and the only way to take into account the main features of the situation/thing. An well organized landscape like holistic view of the world (like a map or instinctual view of the environment) is a basic form of our thinking that all are capable of and at the same time the only really good way to arrange one's picture of the world. So a holistic view should be mentioned in the list! InsectIntelligence 09:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC) i added nothing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.195.40.44 ( talk) 12:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Another case where the discussion side of the Wiki content is at least or more interesting than that in the facing Article. Perhaps WP could use some kind of structuring concepts for both types of content, front and back and a process to mediate between them. The hallmark of the front content would be encyclopaedic Q as discussed in my POV page while the back content would be informed on topic discussion where original work could be presented within the evolving consensus of the subject matter. Have seen this already to some degree in a number of areas such as for example Physics. The front matter on thought has a way to go doesn't it? Lycurgus 22:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
In my browser, the article has 4 "[edit]" texts on the headline "See also". If anyone else sees this, perhaps they could find a way to set them where they should be? I just tried to no avail. DanielDemaret ( talk) 11:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I came across a quote, "thoughts are not common only if no one else could think them." If you could add a discussion this, it would be useful to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanjimalar ( talk • contribs) 10:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
we seldom see people think before they act, and some would act before they think. It bumps in to my mind that every thing we do, we think of it, if and ever we are drunk, we have some reasons to claim that we didn't think of what we are doing because we are drunk. Is there a possibility that the act we just did was not controlled by us or even in our human mind? Is it the effects of the food/drinks(alcohol,drugs,lack of sleep, etc.) that why we are incountering this unknown observations of man, or is the mind itself that even the human mind cannot even control their own mind and acting like some other persons or beings are controling them,,, Sorry about my english. vahn_dinio vahn_dnio 12:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
"The awareness of this process of reasoning is access consciousness" - is this correct sentence structure? is there a term called "access consciousness"? or is this incorrect sentence structure? thank you for the clarification :) BriEnBest ( talk) 12:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Many philosophical (Freemasonry, Thelema, Theosophy, etc.), psychological (Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Krishnamurti, Samael Aun Weor, etc.) and religious (Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnostic Christianity, Judasim, Sufism, etc.) systems have indicated that the thinker itself does not exist, thought exists, and thought shapes life.
Through the establishment of an artificial separation between the thinker and the thought, thinking has regressed as an impulse to act without inquiry of its supposed originator, while its real objective is simply to communicate or to compare two states (yes or no). Since thought is unconsciously connected with our prejudices, affections and aversions, this unquestionably leads to self-centered destruction and a grasp on reality that cannot be real anymore. *(1)
Behind thought is said to abide the true nature (or soul) trapped in the subjectivity of the false-self (the Ego). *(2) We certainly are what we think, yet -with the exception of deep concentration- we have no control over the thought-process itself, we only "think" we have and retrospection which is an exercise to follow the chain of thoughts to its origin can easily disprove that.
Thought sometimes stems from what falls within the realm of your attention span.
Some say that Eastern views on thought are mis-used for "brainwashing." Western psychology is misused in the same fashion as meditative non-thinking (to sell products or to influence an election campaign, etc.), but its root principles remain true nonetheless.
In fact western psychology has slowly begun to research methods like "Self-observation" which are common knowledge in eastern tradtions for thousands of years. Self-observation makes you see the mechanical beginning of thought and its consequences in life and furthermore it makes you see that there is no continuity of self (awareness) which another method called "Self-remembering" helps to aid (both together are called Mindfulness).
In many eastern traditions "thought" is seen as a form of sleep (the origin of the saying: "the world is asleep"). Moreover, these methods in time unlock certain phenomenas one of them known and proven by western science under the name of lucid dreaming which is a form of cognizant awakening while the body rests in deep sleep.
In the same way awakening is said to be possible in the so-called "vigil-state", that unfortunately you cannot verify in just a minute for it may take a long time to break the conditioning of mind, yet many students from all over the world bear witness to that. Not to forget that every serious system of Meditation emphasizes thoughts in the very begining for true meditation is simply inaccessible to a mind that is distracted easily.
A good system calls you to observe and experience thought as being self-driven whereas a bad system calls you to suppress and fight thought which can cause severe damage.
When the mind is silent and receptive the meditative states of consciousness unfold.
Some devotees need to practise years trying to be mindful 24 hours a day (yes that includes sleep) using concentration practices, etc. before they can even attempt to meditate and to the great dismay of many this makes it impossible to "prove it scientifically" since scientists themselves are "thinkers by profession" and therefore will barely be able to see the objective truth in it.
---might leave out---
(1) The inner chatter you hear deceives you to act on its purpose and is in no way healthy, practice makes the separation break down and one can clearly hear it talk detached.
(2) It takes just one minute to find out for yourself that you are simply unable to "not think", which alone implies a lack of control. To try it out simply fix your eyes somewhere with the intention to just observe a minute or two without thinking, you'll find yourself coming out of trance (=being sunken into thoughts) either minutes later or you'll forget about your intention totally. You'll also notice that you are trapped in endless patterns like "do not think ... wait, that *is* a thought ... hey, that was another ... etc."
I put in several things making the article much more balanced. I first said in the discussion that I was going to do that, proposing an addition, explaining my reasoning... Then left it there for about a month. No one said anything at all. So I put in the addition. It was then deleted because it did not have citations, still with no response on the discussion page.. Shouldn't a tag be put in first??? The article sucks now. Can I please put it back in with cited sources? BriEnBest ( talk) 05:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I do not think uncited material should be deleted so much. If you return it with citations that would be considered okay.-- Dchmelik ( talk) 07:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I hear a lot of people say that "animals"(that is, any creature other than a human) do not think. If its true, why have they come to this conclusion? Sources? -- IronMaidenRocks 07:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
It is my belief, personally, that animals DO think. Thinking is the ability to create and use a model of reality in one's brain - animals have brains, *for* that purpose - thinking! BriEnBest ( talk) 12:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is so devoid of citations it is surely a candidate for deletion on the grounds of being OR.--Philogo 02:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree; it does not seem that there is any clear definition of what a "thought" actually is, and the subject seems to be beyond state of the art neuroscience and psychology at the moment. Perhaps a definition of what "thought" refers to in common language plus some information stating how little we actually know about human and animal thought processes will suffice for a rewrite of this article. Some information on how research in the various disciplines of neuroscience try to add to our understanding of thought and information on how some AI research attempts to simulate or replace thought might be warranted, as well.
The entire article at the moment is unacceptable; the definitions of "thought" and "thinking" already assume too much (and that's just the first sentence), and the whole thing reads like a hypothetical/opinion piece. I would suggest to anyone who adds information to this article that they make sure they use solid references, just to avoid any further problems. (After all, if you spend time adding to an article, you want your edits to matter; if someone deletes most or all of the information you added because it lacks citations, it kind of defeats the point.) 209.173.109.104 ( talk) 03:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I think a good definition would be very helpful. The current article comes off as odd largely because it jumps into awkward examples of what thought does without introducing the concept. Some historic references and contemplations on thought would be a good start for definition. Obviously, a great deal of actual content could be synthesized from a variety of concepts in the fields of philosophy, computing, logic, etc. which commonly relate themselves to human thought in literature. This content should not be too difficult to cite, and writers simply need to follow a strict procedure while working. DearthOfMateriel ( talk) 04:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I am working on a total rewrite of the arrticle. You can review it in my sandbox and offer any suggestions or critique. [2]. This is going to take some time and the article may need to be expanded later. The main thing is to put a solid framework and hopefully we can reach the truth on the article quality level, that is. Empireheart ( talk) 11:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
So I decided to put it up as the quality of my draft was better than the original article, of course more work to be done, so I figured community input is important on this. Empireheart ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Many philosphical (Freemasonry, Thelema, Theosophy, etc.), psychological (Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Krishnamurti, Samael Aun Weor, etc.) and religious (Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnostic Christianity, Judasim, Sufism, etc.) systems have indicated that the thinker itself does not exist, thought exists, and thought shapes life. Through the establishment of an artificial seperation between the thinker and the thought, thinking has regressed as an impulse to act without inquiry of its supposed originator while its real objective is simply to communicate or to compare between two states (yes or no). Since thought is unconsciously connected with our prejudices, affections and aversions, this unquestionably leads to self-centered destruction and a grasp on reality that cannot be real anymore. The inner chatter you hear deceives you to act on its purpose and is in no way healthy, practice makes the separation break down and one can clearly hear it talk detached. Behind thought is said to abide the true nature (or soul) trapped in the subjectivity of the false-self (the Ego). It takes just one minute to find out for yourself that you are simply unable to "not think", which alone implies a lack of control. To try it out simply fix your eyes somewhere with the intention to just observe a minute or two without thinking, you'll find yourself coming out of trance (=being sunken into thoughts) either minutes later or you'll forget about your intention totally. You'll also notice that you are trapped in endless patterns like "do not think ... wait, that *is* a thought ... hey, that was another ... etc." We certainly are what we think, yet -with the exception of deep concentration- we have no control over the thought-process itself, we only "think" we have and retrospection which is an exercise to follow the chain of thoughts to its origin can easily disprove that. No thought comes out of the blue although people think so and it takes you just another minute to experience that. To see it for yourself, again fix your eyes on an object and observe with the intention to not think, when you find yourself coming out of trace observe the last thought in your mind, this will get you to another thought, etc., the begining will either be the object itself or an impression of the senses that unconsciously stole your attention. Many people still believe that "non thinking" implies being dull or incapable and that its function is to exploit believers by drilling lies into their naive minds. But that is partly wrong, western psychology is misused in the same fashion (to sell products or to influence an election campaign, etc.) but its root principles remain true nonetheless. In fact western psychology has slowly begun to research methods like "Self-observation" which are common knowledge in eastern tradtions for thousands of years. Self-observation makes you see the mechanical beginning of thought and its consequences in life and furthermore it makes you see that there is no continuity of self (awareness) which another method called "Self-remembering" helps to aid (both together are called Mindfulness). In many eastern traditions "thought" is seen as a form of sleep (the origin of the saying: "the world is asleep"). Moreover, these methods in time unlock certain phenomenas one of them known and proven by western science under the name of lucid dreaming which is a form of cognizant awakening while the body rests in deepsleep. In the same way awakening is said to be possible in the so-called "vigil-state", that unfortunately you cannot verify in just a minute for it may take a long time to break the conditioning of mind, yet many students from all over the world bear witness to that. Not to forget that every serious system of Meditation emphasizes thoughts in the very begining for true meditation is simply inaccessible to a mind that is distracted easily. A good system calls you to observe and experience thought as being self-driven whereas a bad system calls you to suppress and fight thought which can cause severe damage. When the mind is silent and receptive the meditative states of consciousness unfold. Some devotees need to practise years (trying to be mindful 24 hours a day, yes that includes sleep, concentration practices, etc.) before they can even attempt to meditate and to the great dismay of many this makes it impossible to "prove it scientifically" since scientists themselves are "thinkers by profession" and therefore will barely be able to see the objective truth in it. So call it pseudoscientific, but (some of) these things should not remain unmentioned if this shall once be a balanced article. -Paul
not thinkin is not tryin, well not tryin not to try... u start tryin to look at a point or stop thinkin for a set amount of time and uv killed it entirely, eitherway honest thinkin is more important than not thinkin. i just wanna add that u know the meanin of what ur goin to think before u think it eg. if i ask, what is this (+) before the words go through ur mind u already know what it is, try it with other stuff. Nawadap 00:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Not helpful at all... No matter how true, we need sources, not a source. Enough with the claims.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 01:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I mean, not to get all existential/philosophical (actually, that's exactly what I intend to get), but there isn't any reference here really to the notion that thoughts, emotions, etc., have no real basis in anything that the Universe provides. I mean, if emotions and human brain function as a whole is nothing but electrical signals and such, then what causes them to say "okay, time to expel saline fluids from the eyes, because you're SAD"...it doesn't make sense to me, in the slightest.
I hope this article doesn't become materialistic, but share's all viewpoints.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 01:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Why haven't I found the definition of a thought in its relation to material processes of the human brain? The challenge is to show how all the electro-chemical-neuronal activity IS actually our thoughts, how they are produced from the information we get from our senses. Here, a thought is dubbed 'a mental process', then an array of functions is provided. This would be similar to defining an atom as 'a physical entity', which holds all the things together and makes the world what it is. Exaggeration or not, surely you would mention in the definition what it actually is: protons, electrons, neutrons. I am not proposing reductionism, I am well aware of and accept the concept of emergence. But thought is not all emergence; it is not merely a quality or a state of the matter of the human brain, but also a quantity (of neurons). Both these aspects should be put into the definition.
Thought is not material. Scientist do not actually know what 'thought' is, but they know how it works and function on a limited level.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 02:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Aside from the various picture, and sounds/music playing in my head, I apparently think in English. Forming sentences of what I plan to say, and stuff like that. Sometimes playing out a conversation. Y'know how on TV or in theater, a character will think lines to themself? I actually do that. My aunt says it isn't normal, but she's a bible thumper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.177.183 ( talk) 16:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
The lede is dreadful, rightly multi-tagged "OR" -- Philogo ( talk) 14:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Tried to stick in a (temporary?) fix with a more standard "dictionary"-type definition in the lede. The whole article lends itself to WP:OR, WP:FRINGE, and WP:COAT, to name a few, just by virtue of being such a vague and ill-defined concept. Not to mention that even when people do define it clearly, they still don't understand how it works. Not sure there's much of a solution to that. These sorts of articles are ones where--I hate to say it--wiki often doesn't work very well. -- InspectorTiger ( talk) 16:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Wow, what a complete piece of crap article. Let's rehash what philosophers and quacks have to say on the subject. Or not. For F's sake, this article doesn't even touch on the neurobiological theories of what thought is -- you know, what goes on in the brain. How about presenting empirical evidence based on neurobiological science rather than giving a platform for discredited nonsense like Fraudian theory? Mtiffany71 ( talk) 22:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I second this, the material covered here whether religious or not is completely beside the point. The only matter that CAN be displayed here is scientific theory based on the actual inner workings of the brain. Under philosophy at the top, the whole mind-body problem is utter crap. We know a lot more than that. I originally came to this article to review such knowledge and I found nothing of value. This article needs a complete rewrite based solely how thought is made and functions, a purely neuro-biological endeavor. 151.197.25.131 ( talk) 02:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
You guys should really read some Heidegger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.110.103 ( talk) 16:58, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Aristotle was a hylomorphist, not a dualist. Check your facts wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.36.47.204 ( talk) 07:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
The current definition is irritably ambiguous. Most regrettably, it suggests little if any difference of thought from emotion, which is commonly seen as its antagonist or polar complement. Fortunately, though, “thought” is easier to define than “emotion.” A thought is the mental evocation and/or analysis of concepts and/or their interactions. Most thoughts are voluntary, but they needn't be by definition (e.g., obsessive thoughts, some auditory hallucinations, sometimes suicidal ideation). Whether they have to be conscious by definition is another story, and you have to keep in mind all the while that “conscious” is not the same as “voluntary.” The last two sentences deal more with terminology than with psychology, but I can argue that what you might call an “unconscious thought” isn't as much of a thought as it is a mental process SVI GENERIS; consider the distinction between declarative memory and procedural memory, the two of which have a neural, empirical basis, so this is not just sophistry. EIN ( talk) 01:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I've added an article from New Scientist as further reading which gives an overview on 'Thought' by Tim Bayne, a 'philosopher' of psychology an Manchester University (I think that should be 'professor'?). I'm not competent to add any of its points to the article, but thought it worth including. Tony Holkham ( talk) 12:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
According to a number of famous philosophers - thoughts aren't produced, aren't formed by the person. Thoughts are timelessly true and are only apprehended by the person. In his work “The Thought: A Logical Inquiry” famous German mathematician, logician and philosopher Gottlob Frege writes that we don't produce thoughts, we apprehend (formulate) them. The apprehension of a thought presupposes someone who apprehends it, who thinks. A person is the bearer of the thinking but not of the thought.
Thus the thought, for example, which we expressed in the Pythagorean theorem is timelessly true, true independently of whether anyone takes it to be true. It needs no bearer. It is not true for the first time when it is discovered, but is like a planet which, already before anyone has seen it, has been in interaction with other planets. [1]
Yury2015 ( talk) 09:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello Andrew! What do you think about all that...
Dear colleagues, please tell me, how much time additional information to a certain article must be in talk page before it can be added to a certain article?--Yury2015 (talk) 10:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- There is no set amount of time. If the information is basic and uncontroversial, then it can be added right away. If it requires some discussion, then it's best to wait until a consensus has been reached.
- That said, often things on talk pages get overlooked. So, it might be best to alert some of the more recent/regular contributors to the article of the presence of new information on the talk page. Dismas (talk) 10:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- The talk page for thought is not busy. I suggest that you state more precisely what it is that you want to add to the article and where you propose adding it, and then leave it for two weeks to wait for responses. I note with amusement that, two sections above yours on that talk page, there is a long advertisement for gazebos, the only Wikipedia contribution of a registered editor. Maproom (talk) 10:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- I removed the spam.―Mandruss ☎ 11:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I added that section to the article "Thought"
- "We do not produce thoughts" approach
According to a number of famous philosophers - thoughts aren't produced, aren't formed by the person. Thoughts are timelessly true and are only apprehended by the person. In his work “The Thought: A Logical Inquiry” famous German mathematician, logician and philosopher Gottlob Frege writes that we don't produce thoughts, we apprehend (formulate) them. The apprehension of a thought presupposes someone who apprehends it, who thinks. A person is the bearer of the thinking but not of the thought. "Thus the thought, for example, which we expressed in the Pythagorean theorem is timelessly true, true independently of whether anyone takes it to be true. It needs no bearer. It is not true for the first time when it is discovered, but is like a planet which, already before anyone has seen it, has been in interaction with other planets. The Thought: A Logical Inquiry, Gottlob Frege. Mind, New Series, Vol.65, No.259 (Jul., 1956), p.302 "
- That's the result:
- (cur prev) 09:23, 11 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (23,915 bytes) (-1,007) . . (Undid good faith revision 646621159 by Yury2015 (talk). Please do not simply reapply your edits if reverted. As per wiki-best practice, take it to the talk page.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 08:43, 11 February 2015 Yury2015 (talk contribs) . . (24,922 bytes) (+1,007) . . (See Wikipedia:Five pillars In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately) (undo)
- (cur prev) 00:32, 11 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (23,915 bytes) (-201) . . (Actually this should be removed altogether. It is apparently self-published original research, and added in the face of conflict of interest issues.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 23:45, 10 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (24,116 bytes) (-1,007) . . (Undid good faith revision 646546256 by Yury2015 (talk). Uncited claims, clarity issues, and likely undue weight.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 20:26, 10 February 2015 Yury2015 (talk contribs) . . (25,123 bytes) (+1,007) . . (Adding information) (undo) --Yury2015 (talk) 12:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your addition to the article was apparently supported by a 1956 paper by Gottlob Frege. Frege died in 1925. I suggest to try to come up with a better source. Maproom (talk) 13:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you) Dear colleague, tell me please where can I read that kind of rule?
- Thank you dear colleagues for your comments. --Yury2015 (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- What kind of rule? The rule that we don't allow references that have highly questionable dates, or something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly! What dates are questionable? 10, 20, 30 - 100 years? May be than I should make the section "From the history of study of thought"? Aristotle did study thought and thinking.178.120.87.219 (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)Yury2015 (talk) 17:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yury2015, the problem is not the date that it was written, but that it was supposedly written by a dead person. If he died in 1925, he can't have written an article in 1956, you know? The guidelines about reliable sources can be found at WP:RS. — kikichugirl speak up! 03:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Friedrich Ludwig Gottlob Frege (/ˈfreɪɡə/;[3] German: [ˈɡɔtloːp ˈfreːɡə]; 8 November 1848 – 26 July 1925) was a German mathematician, logician and philosopher. He is considered to be one of the founders of modern logic and made major contributions to the foundations of mathematics. He is generally considered to be the father of analytic philosophy, for his writings on the philosophy of language and mathematics. While he was mainly ignored by the intellectual world when he published his writings, Giuseppe Peano (1858–1932) and Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) introduced his work to later generations of logicians and philosophers. Yury2015 ( talk) 08:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello Andrew! At last I got a free minute! Here is another notable source - I hope Hegel is notable for you!
"According to Hegel, the thinking of a person, and concepts, judgments and conclusions aren't a product and result of functioning of a person nervous system, activity of a brain, and even subjective activity of the individual. Hegel sees thinking as a certain step in development of an absolute idea". A.O Makovelsky . History of logic. M., 1967, p . 477 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yury2015 ( talk • contribs) 11:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
--
"Thought can refer to the ideas or arrangements of ideas that result from thinking, the act of producing thoughts, or the process of producing thoughts. " -- this is unacceptably wishy-washy and doesn't work as a definition. it's even circular! in short a terrible first line for the article. -- 99.232.96.123 ( talk) 01:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
-- Jordache --
This is a brand. It's logo is that of a Pegasus, not a horse, but it still has no wings. Like angels fly. It has to do with the coloring of the symbol not the text. Perhaps some input on synesthesia would be greatly appreciated here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7751:2D0:1AA:8BBD:340A:BD14 ( talk) 23:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
-- Jordache --
This is a brand. It's logo is that of a Pegasus, not a horse, but it still has no wings. Like angels fly. It has to do with the coloring of the symbol not the text. Perhaps some input on synesthesia would be greatly appreciated here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyptic ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
how did all people thinking now best wishes from neuroscientist Nino Bauszus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.157.80.122 ( talk) 12:36, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
It's somewhat upsetting that the section on the philosophical take on the problem of thought starts with Martin Heidegger. Not that he is irrelevant, quite on the contrary. But thought is one of the central themes of philosophy ever since its conception. Perivangrini ( talk) 09:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Paragraph 3 of this article begins with Thinking allows humans to make sense of, interpret, represent or model the world they experience, and to make predictions about that world. Don't animals do that? Without neurons, plants also make predictions -- consider the pliable phenotype of plants growing in shade or sun. If that is not thinking how does it differ? My point is the italicized statement is vague and too specific at the same time. Partridgefoot ( talk) 01:56, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Think has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
A protected redirect, Think , needs redirect category ( rcat) templates added. Please modify it as follows:
#REDIRECT [[Thought]]
#REDIRECT [[Thought]] {{Rcat shell| {{R related}} {{R hatnote}} {{R printworthy}} }}
The {{ Redirect category shell}} (Rcat shell) template is used to sort redirects into one or more categories. When {{ pp-protected}} and/or {{ pp-move}} suffice, the Redirect category shell template will detect the protection level(s) and categorize the redirect automatically. (Also, the categories will be automatically removed or changed when and if protection is lifted, raised or lowered.) Thank you in advance, and Happy Holidays! Paine Ellsworth put'r there 16:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to cite this article in a college paper, but the link to professor Marić's book gave me a 404 error. I don't know how to fix it, if someone knows, please. Frajolex ( talk) 17:17, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
A larger wiki forum on this area may be found at sense-think-act.org which may be of interest to contributors to this area... Szczels 12:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I made an edit to the Theories of thinking section, Platonism subject which was soon reverted by User:Phlsph7, and returning later finding such made another, only to once more have undone by User:Phlsph7. I don't mean to suggest that the content of the original was necessarily problematic. I do know, however, that the plurality of antecedent ought find agreement with any subsequent usage of pronoun (viz Platonic forms implies original ones and not one), and that any supposed difficulty in thinking would arise most likely through an inability rather than ability (viz able should instead be written unable or ill-able). The edits caught my attention mainly because the structure was awkward to grasp, as opposed to any specific intention I had to add anything new to their content. Lispenard ( talk) 07:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Lispenard ( talk) 07:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
so here's what I got so far:
Viewed as such, difficulty in the mind's realisation stems from being less than adept at grasping thought wherein Platonic forms might arise, and thus fail to behold in these their original Natures - distinct from the but mere glimpses we receive through the sensory world. Succeeding meant, to illustrate, being both able to experience Beauty herself - together, yet alone, and at once in harmony - with all her derivative manifestations in all their diverse attribute, variform aspect, and unremitting splendour.
Lispenard ( talk) 20:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
IMO, there is nothing wrong with adding the definition from the textbook Clinical psychiatry by the author, professor Maric. It is well formulated, concise and clear. Therefore, I will be restoring the one sentence definition that was there prior to improvements made by the other major contributors. Vs6 507 18:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Let's take a look at the sentence:
Thought is defined as an "aim-oriented flow of ideas and associations that can lead to a reality-oriented conclusion".
aim-oriented means oriented towards a goal or an aim.
Flow is a fairly common noun.
Ideas and associations too.
Reality-oriented conclusion is a conclusion that is based on reality, in other words what is real.
Therefore, for example, my idea was to check if there is still this definition there for people to read it and gain knowledge from it. The association was this article on the English Wikipedia, which was, as I suppose, thanks to you greatly improved. My conclusion would be that you don't like the content. WP:IDONTLIKEIT
My suggestions would be:
Kindly,
Vs6 507 18:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Do you concur with the addition of the improved version of the definition from that page in this form:
Thought is a mental process, that consists of ideas and associations, which allows beings to come to conclusions, be conscious, make decisions, imagine and, in general, operate on symbols in a rational or irrational manner.
Vs6 507 18:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
You're right. I've tried to improve it. What about this one:
Thought is defined as a mental process consisted of ideas and associations. It can lead to logical or irrational conclusions. During a thought process conscious cognition can happen independently of sensory stimulation.
Vs6 507 19:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Please would you be so kind not to remove the (TAS) in brackets after the link. If you know how to link it directly to 'Thought as a system' under his entry, then replace 'David Bohm' with 'Thought as a System', otherwise leave this abbrevation (TAS) so that it is known why the link is present.
Move -- Lacatosias 07:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move -- It's irrelevant pseudoscience from a well-known crank. It's an embarassment to mix it in with genuine scholarship. Alienus 15:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move -- Ig0774 18:46, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move It mars an otherwise superb article. My objections have as much to do with the poor quality of the writing as they do with the topic. Moncrief 23:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Move or delete. Even if relevant, true and possibly interesting, it would have to be rewritten, and possibly reworked altogether to have any place in wikipedia. DanielDemaret 10:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Move, or even better delete. It makes several undocumented claims, refers to telekinesis as proof and attempts to steal credibility from quantum physics. Complete BS. -- AndersFeder 10:27, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Leave it under this entry (it is not so long and it is more than relevant to the subject).Ndru01 10:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
to know what you were voting about, it should at least stay here on discussion:Ndru01 15:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
"As of yet, the English language has not coined more specific words for the exact experiences and endeavors people do in their minds on a daily basis."
Is this accurate, you think? I'm pretty sure that some dominant schools of thought would say that indeed each and every word of the English language are artifacts of people's experience of thought. Mental experiences that go beyond language are either too subjective or too vague to find a linguistic formation but are not truly different from the experiences associated with words. -- AndersFeder 10:20, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to new think (disambiguation) page, but perhaps think should redirect there, instead of here. — johndburger 05:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I think there are far too many links in the See Also section—isn't a link to the Thinking Portal sufficient? What's the Portal for if not to collect links???
In the sentence "Thought or thinking is a mental process which allows beings to model the world", shouldn't the word "thought" have an article before it? What I mean is it should be "a thought", not just "thought". Agen0 12:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ndru01 keeps trying to insert this section. The problem is that it's entirely uncited and, frankly, it's psuedoscientific gibberish. It has no place here. Alienus 22:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The following was deleted without comment by ndru01, so I've restored it:
Why haven't you restore my question after that too ("what exactly is unclear/poor?"), and the initial request that the section don't be removed. In the meantime I made some slight change and it might be not so 'unclear',so that vicious comment might be completely unnecessary.Ndru01 00:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Bohm (who is cited which you ignored) and Sheldrake are scientists. Serious as can be. Competent enough in the subject or not, you should eventually leave some tag and not just remove something that you might not understand properly. The section is more serious than the rest of the article. Ndru01 02:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Sheldrake is a joke, and Bohm doesn't support your religious interpretation of science. Mentioning someone is not the same thing as offering a citation, but that's probably the sort of academic fine point that goes right over your head. The section is a joke and does not belong here or anywhere else. I will continue to remove it unless a consensus appears on this Talk page to support your suggestions. Alienus 04:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
lg, the material seems related to modern gnosticism, if that helps put it in perspective. Alienus 07:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
How is telekinesis mentioned in context with thoughts illogical!? It is perfectly logical and in context. I sign my posts exactly as suggested, with 4 tildes at the end, so I don't know what Alienus is talking about. It doesn't say that it's a must of hyperlinking the signature. Why should I waste my time on that when its not a must. Bohm is exactly cited, check under his entry, and it underlines the point of the section, that a thought is not just 'energy' (that we already know from the fact that telekinesis is a reality), but energetic 'something' (call it -entity, unit, form, object, meme, in any case a - system)... Sheldrake deals with forms (morphe), and he uses that term for it. And every form IS a system (some sub-form being its element), every intelligent person should know that, and Bohm clearly yells out to everyone's face that thought is a system. So there you have it-> thought-(abstract)form-system. Ndru01 10:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Howevere, since I'm not going to succeed in depragamming you here, I suggest another vote:
The section is not 'filled' with anything, the wording is fairly rational and moderate (and I don't need to be 'depragammed', as Alienus or whoever suggested), and it is not poor. Maybe it wasn't very clear to many people but still it can be more nicely and politely said than you did. If people remove something that is good-intentional and relevant, why shouldn't something bad-intentional plus unkind be removed too (at least for sake of rephrasing it). Ndru01 23:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
ps. It is unclear who suggested the vote. It now looks like I did since it is immediately after my signed text, while that someone's sentence is unsigned. That is another 'violation' (not by me), isn't it?Ndru01 00:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Since you're so curious, one european in earthly terms (actually 2 european, one middle-european and one south-european since I'm from a mixed marriage and learnt both as a child). But, in truth, probably K-Paxian.Ndru01 06:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the whole point has become moot, as I cannnot find the article you all are referring to. The Silent Russian 06:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I came across this section and thought this part: "Powerful neo-conceptualizing cannot compare in scope to the vast intricacies of past development from which modern thought has evolved." I'm sure this can be improved a bit, it doesn't sound right in an encyclopedia article somehow. -- WikiSlasher 11:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What is the Speed of Thought?
Around 300 milliseconds. That's how long it took a volunteer to begin to understand a pictured object. Add to that another 250 to 450 milliseconds to fully comprehend what it was. Total speed of thought: between 550 and 750 milliseconds.
Such are the results coming out of work conducted by John Hopkins scientists seeking to measure rates of comprehension. "This information has been difficult to acquire," says neurologist and team leader John Hart, "even with different combinations of behavioural tests, electrical recordings and imaging studies such as PET scans."
Yet by taking advantage of a unique opportunity afforded by a patient scheduled for tests using electrodes surgically placed on his brain, the researchers have moved one step closer to "building theories of higher mental activity." Until now, the speed of cognitive operations (including language processing) has been the missing ingredient.
Reporting their findings in the May 25 Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, the researchers describe how the patient was asked to name and categorize a variety of pictures and words. By way of a grid of 174 electrodes, his brain activity was then monitored. The speed of comprehension was far quicker for objects that were already familiar to him.
"The data, obtained within a single stage at a single site in the brain, are further evidence that information accumulates gradually in the brain, rather than in a strictly all-or-none fashion," says Hart.
He adds that understanding this process of accumulation could help scientists understand comprehension and word loss from disorders such as stroke or Alzheimer's disease. _____________________________________________________ Can someone make an article on the Speed of thought? It seems really interesting. http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/23027 74.167.170.215 13:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The task of thinking is to form a picture of what the world is like. Ideally the picture should contain everything in the world in it, at least everything that we know, in a form that is easy for us to understand. A holistic view of the situation is such an easy form and the only way to take into account the main features of the situation/thing. An well organized landscape like holistic view of the world (like a map or instinctual view of the environment) is a basic form of our thinking that all are capable of and at the same time the only really good way to arrange one's picture of the world. So a holistic view should be mentioned in the list! InsectIntelligence 09:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC) i added nothing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.195.40.44 ( talk) 12:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Another case where the discussion side of the Wiki content is at least or more interesting than that in the facing Article. Perhaps WP could use some kind of structuring concepts for both types of content, front and back and a process to mediate between them. The hallmark of the front content would be encyclopaedic Q as discussed in my POV page while the back content would be informed on topic discussion where original work could be presented within the evolving consensus of the subject matter. Have seen this already to some degree in a number of areas such as for example Physics. The front matter on thought has a way to go doesn't it? Lycurgus 22:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
In my browser, the article has 4 "[edit]" texts on the headline "See also". If anyone else sees this, perhaps they could find a way to set them where they should be? I just tried to no avail. DanielDemaret ( talk) 11:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I came across a quote, "thoughts are not common only if no one else could think them." If you could add a discussion this, it would be useful to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanjimalar ( talk • contribs) 10:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
we seldom see people think before they act, and some would act before they think. It bumps in to my mind that every thing we do, we think of it, if and ever we are drunk, we have some reasons to claim that we didn't think of what we are doing because we are drunk. Is there a possibility that the act we just did was not controlled by us or even in our human mind? Is it the effects of the food/drinks(alcohol,drugs,lack of sleep, etc.) that why we are incountering this unknown observations of man, or is the mind itself that even the human mind cannot even control their own mind and acting like some other persons or beings are controling them,,, Sorry about my english. vahn_dinio vahn_dnio 12:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
"The awareness of this process of reasoning is access consciousness" - is this correct sentence structure? is there a term called "access consciousness"? or is this incorrect sentence structure? thank you for the clarification :) BriEnBest ( talk) 12:26, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Many philosophical (Freemasonry, Thelema, Theosophy, etc.), psychological (Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Krishnamurti, Samael Aun Weor, etc.) and religious (Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnostic Christianity, Judasim, Sufism, etc.) systems have indicated that the thinker itself does not exist, thought exists, and thought shapes life.
Through the establishment of an artificial separation between the thinker and the thought, thinking has regressed as an impulse to act without inquiry of its supposed originator, while its real objective is simply to communicate or to compare two states (yes or no). Since thought is unconsciously connected with our prejudices, affections and aversions, this unquestionably leads to self-centered destruction and a grasp on reality that cannot be real anymore. *(1)
Behind thought is said to abide the true nature (or soul) trapped in the subjectivity of the false-self (the Ego). *(2) We certainly are what we think, yet -with the exception of deep concentration- we have no control over the thought-process itself, we only "think" we have and retrospection which is an exercise to follow the chain of thoughts to its origin can easily disprove that.
Thought sometimes stems from what falls within the realm of your attention span.
Some say that Eastern views on thought are mis-used for "brainwashing." Western psychology is misused in the same fashion as meditative non-thinking (to sell products or to influence an election campaign, etc.), but its root principles remain true nonetheless.
In fact western psychology has slowly begun to research methods like "Self-observation" which are common knowledge in eastern tradtions for thousands of years. Self-observation makes you see the mechanical beginning of thought and its consequences in life and furthermore it makes you see that there is no continuity of self (awareness) which another method called "Self-remembering" helps to aid (both together are called Mindfulness).
In many eastern traditions "thought" is seen as a form of sleep (the origin of the saying: "the world is asleep"). Moreover, these methods in time unlock certain phenomenas one of them known and proven by western science under the name of lucid dreaming which is a form of cognizant awakening while the body rests in deep sleep.
In the same way awakening is said to be possible in the so-called "vigil-state", that unfortunately you cannot verify in just a minute for it may take a long time to break the conditioning of mind, yet many students from all over the world bear witness to that. Not to forget that every serious system of Meditation emphasizes thoughts in the very begining for true meditation is simply inaccessible to a mind that is distracted easily.
A good system calls you to observe and experience thought as being self-driven whereas a bad system calls you to suppress and fight thought which can cause severe damage.
When the mind is silent and receptive the meditative states of consciousness unfold.
Some devotees need to practise years trying to be mindful 24 hours a day (yes that includes sleep) using concentration practices, etc. before they can even attempt to meditate and to the great dismay of many this makes it impossible to "prove it scientifically" since scientists themselves are "thinkers by profession" and therefore will barely be able to see the objective truth in it.
---might leave out---
(1) The inner chatter you hear deceives you to act on its purpose and is in no way healthy, practice makes the separation break down and one can clearly hear it talk detached.
(2) It takes just one minute to find out for yourself that you are simply unable to "not think", which alone implies a lack of control. To try it out simply fix your eyes somewhere with the intention to just observe a minute or two without thinking, you'll find yourself coming out of trance (=being sunken into thoughts) either minutes later or you'll forget about your intention totally. You'll also notice that you are trapped in endless patterns like "do not think ... wait, that *is* a thought ... hey, that was another ... etc."
I put in several things making the article much more balanced. I first said in the discussion that I was going to do that, proposing an addition, explaining my reasoning... Then left it there for about a month. No one said anything at all. So I put in the addition. It was then deleted because it did not have citations, still with no response on the discussion page.. Shouldn't a tag be put in first??? The article sucks now. Can I please put it back in with cited sources? BriEnBest ( talk) 05:03, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I do not think uncited material should be deleted so much. If you return it with citations that would be considered okay.-- Dchmelik ( talk) 07:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I hear a lot of people say that "animals"(that is, any creature other than a human) do not think. If its true, why have they come to this conclusion? Sources? -- IronMaidenRocks 07:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
It is my belief, personally, that animals DO think. Thinking is the ability to create and use a model of reality in one's brain - animals have brains, *for* that purpose - thinking! BriEnBest ( talk) 12:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is so devoid of citations it is surely a candidate for deletion on the grounds of being OR.--Philogo 02:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I agree; it does not seem that there is any clear definition of what a "thought" actually is, and the subject seems to be beyond state of the art neuroscience and psychology at the moment. Perhaps a definition of what "thought" refers to in common language plus some information stating how little we actually know about human and animal thought processes will suffice for a rewrite of this article. Some information on how research in the various disciplines of neuroscience try to add to our understanding of thought and information on how some AI research attempts to simulate or replace thought might be warranted, as well.
The entire article at the moment is unacceptable; the definitions of "thought" and "thinking" already assume too much (and that's just the first sentence), and the whole thing reads like a hypothetical/opinion piece. I would suggest to anyone who adds information to this article that they make sure they use solid references, just to avoid any further problems. (After all, if you spend time adding to an article, you want your edits to matter; if someone deletes most or all of the information you added because it lacks citations, it kind of defeats the point.) 209.173.109.104 ( talk) 03:26, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I think a good definition would be very helpful. The current article comes off as odd largely because it jumps into awkward examples of what thought does without introducing the concept. Some historic references and contemplations on thought would be a good start for definition. Obviously, a great deal of actual content could be synthesized from a variety of concepts in the fields of philosophy, computing, logic, etc. which commonly relate themselves to human thought in literature. This content should not be too difficult to cite, and writers simply need to follow a strict procedure while working. DearthOfMateriel ( talk) 04:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I am working on a total rewrite of the arrticle. You can review it in my sandbox and offer any suggestions or critique. [2]. This is going to take some time and the article may need to be expanded later. The main thing is to put a solid framework and hopefully we can reach the truth on the article quality level, that is. Empireheart ( talk) 11:17, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
So I decided to put it up as the quality of my draft was better than the original article, of course more work to be done, so I figured community input is important on this. Empireheart ( talk) 11:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Many philosphical (Freemasonry, Thelema, Theosophy, etc.), psychological (Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Krishnamurti, Samael Aun Weor, etc.) and religious (Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnostic Christianity, Judasim, Sufism, etc.) systems have indicated that the thinker itself does not exist, thought exists, and thought shapes life. Through the establishment of an artificial seperation between the thinker and the thought, thinking has regressed as an impulse to act without inquiry of its supposed originator while its real objective is simply to communicate or to compare between two states (yes or no). Since thought is unconsciously connected with our prejudices, affections and aversions, this unquestionably leads to self-centered destruction and a grasp on reality that cannot be real anymore. The inner chatter you hear deceives you to act on its purpose and is in no way healthy, practice makes the separation break down and one can clearly hear it talk detached. Behind thought is said to abide the true nature (or soul) trapped in the subjectivity of the false-self (the Ego). It takes just one minute to find out for yourself that you are simply unable to "not think", which alone implies a lack of control. To try it out simply fix your eyes somewhere with the intention to just observe a minute or two without thinking, you'll find yourself coming out of trance (=being sunken into thoughts) either minutes later or you'll forget about your intention totally. You'll also notice that you are trapped in endless patterns like "do not think ... wait, that *is* a thought ... hey, that was another ... etc." We certainly are what we think, yet -with the exception of deep concentration- we have no control over the thought-process itself, we only "think" we have and retrospection which is an exercise to follow the chain of thoughts to its origin can easily disprove that. No thought comes out of the blue although people think so and it takes you just another minute to experience that. To see it for yourself, again fix your eyes on an object and observe with the intention to not think, when you find yourself coming out of trace observe the last thought in your mind, this will get you to another thought, etc., the begining will either be the object itself or an impression of the senses that unconsciously stole your attention. Many people still believe that "non thinking" implies being dull or incapable and that its function is to exploit believers by drilling lies into their naive minds. But that is partly wrong, western psychology is misused in the same fashion (to sell products or to influence an election campaign, etc.) but its root principles remain true nonetheless. In fact western psychology has slowly begun to research methods like "Self-observation" which are common knowledge in eastern tradtions for thousands of years. Self-observation makes you see the mechanical beginning of thought and its consequences in life and furthermore it makes you see that there is no continuity of self (awareness) which another method called "Self-remembering" helps to aid (both together are called Mindfulness). In many eastern traditions "thought" is seen as a form of sleep (the origin of the saying: "the world is asleep"). Moreover, these methods in time unlock certain phenomenas one of them known and proven by western science under the name of lucid dreaming which is a form of cognizant awakening while the body rests in deepsleep. In the same way awakening is said to be possible in the so-called "vigil-state", that unfortunately you cannot verify in just a minute for it may take a long time to break the conditioning of mind, yet many students from all over the world bear witness to that. Not to forget that every serious system of Meditation emphasizes thoughts in the very begining for true meditation is simply inaccessible to a mind that is distracted easily. A good system calls you to observe and experience thought as being self-driven whereas a bad system calls you to suppress and fight thought which can cause severe damage. When the mind is silent and receptive the meditative states of consciousness unfold. Some devotees need to practise years (trying to be mindful 24 hours a day, yes that includes sleep, concentration practices, etc.) before they can even attempt to meditate and to the great dismay of many this makes it impossible to "prove it scientifically" since scientists themselves are "thinkers by profession" and therefore will barely be able to see the objective truth in it. So call it pseudoscientific, but (some of) these things should not remain unmentioned if this shall once be a balanced article. -Paul
not thinkin is not tryin, well not tryin not to try... u start tryin to look at a point or stop thinkin for a set amount of time and uv killed it entirely, eitherway honest thinkin is more important than not thinkin. i just wanna add that u know the meanin of what ur goin to think before u think it eg. if i ask, what is this (+) before the words go through ur mind u already know what it is, try it with other stuff. Nawadap 00:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Not helpful at all... No matter how true, we need sources, not a source. Enough with the claims.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 01:56, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I mean, not to get all existential/philosophical (actually, that's exactly what I intend to get), but there isn't any reference here really to the notion that thoughts, emotions, etc., have no real basis in anything that the Universe provides. I mean, if emotions and human brain function as a whole is nothing but electrical signals and such, then what causes them to say "okay, time to expel saline fluids from the eyes, because you're SAD"...it doesn't make sense to me, in the slightest.
I hope this article doesn't become materialistic, but share's all viewpoints.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 01:59, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Why haven't I found the definition of a thought in its relation to material processes of the human brain? The challenge is to show how all the electro-chemical-neuronal activity IS actually our thoughts, how they are produced from the information we get from our senses. Here, a thought is dubbed 'a mental process', then an array of functions is provided. This would be similar to defining an atom as 'a physical entity', which holds all the things together and makes the world what it is. Exaggeration or not, surely you would mention in the definition what it actually is: protons, electrons, neutrons. I am not proposing reductionism, I am well aware of and accept the concept of emergence. But thought is not all emergence; it is not merely a quality or a state of the matter of the human brain, but also a quantity (of neurons). Both these aspects should be put into the definition.
Thought is not material. Scientist do not actually know what 'thought' is, but they know how it works and function on a limited level.-- 71.126.63.193 ( talk) 02:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Aside from the various picture, and sounds/music playing in my head, I apparently think in English. Forming sentences of what I plan to say, and stuff like that. Sometimes playing out a conversation. Y'know how on TV or in theater, a character will think lines to themself? I actually do that. My aunt says it isn't normal, but she's a bible thumper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.177.183 ( talk) 16:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
The lede is dreadful, rightly multi-tagged "OR" -- Philogo ( talk) 14:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Tried to stick in a (temporary?) fix with a more standard "dictionary"-type definition in the lede. The whole article lends itself to WP:OR, WP:FRINGE, and WP:COAT, to name a few, just by virtue of being such a vague and ill-defined concept. Not to mention that even when people do define it clearly, they still don't understand how it works. Not sure there's much of a solution to that. These sorts of articles are ones where--I hate to say it--wiki often doesn't work very well. -- InspectorTiger ( talk) 16:56, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
Wow, what a complete piece of crap article. Let's rehash what philosophers and quacks have to say on the subject. Or not. For F's sake, this article doesn't even touch on the neurobiological theories of what thought is -- you know, what goes on in the brain. How about presenting empirical evidence based on neurobiological science rather than giving a platform for discredited nonsense like Fraudian theory? Mtiffany71 ( talk) 22:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I second this, the material covered here whether religious or not is completely beside the point. The only matter that CAN be displayed here is scientific theory based on the actual inner workings of the brain. Under philosophy at the top, the whole mind-body problem is utter crap. We know a lot more than that. I originally came to this article to review such knowledge and I found nothing of value. This article needs a complete rewrite based solely how thought is made and functions, a purely neuro-biological endeavor. 151.197.25.131 ( talk) 02:20, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
You guys should really read some Heidegger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.200.110.103 ( talk) 16:58, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Aristotle was a hylomorphist, not a dualist. Check your facts wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.36.47.204 ( talk) 07:12, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
The current definition is irritably ambiguous. Most regrettably, it suggests little if any difference of thought from emotion, which is commonly seen as its antagonist or polar complement. Fortunately, though, “thought” is easier to define than “emotion.” A thought is the mental evocation and/or analysis of concepts and/or their interactions. Most thoughts are voluntary, but they needn't be by definition (e.g., obsessive thoughts, some auditory hallucinations, sometimes suicidal ideation). Whether they have to be conscious by definition is another story, and you have to keep in mind all the while that “conscious” is not the same as “voluntary.” The last two sentences deal more with terminology than with psychology, but I can argue that what you might call an “unconscious thought” isn't as much of a thought as it is a mental process SVI GENERIS; consider the distinction between declarative memory and procedural memory, the two of which have a neural, empirical basis, so this is not just sophistry. EIN ( talk) 01:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I've added an article from New Scientist as further reading which gives an overview on 'Thought' by Tim Bayne, a 'philosopher' of psychology an Manchester University (I think that should be 'professor'?). I'm not competent to add any of its points to the article, but thought it worth including. Tony Holkham ( talk) 12:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
According to a number of famous philosophers - thoughts aren't produced, aren't formed by the person. Thoughts are timelessly true and are only apprehended by the person. In his work “The Thought: A Logical Inquiry” famous German mathematician, logician and philosopher Gottlob Frege writes that we don't produce thoughts, we apprehend (formulate) them. The apprehension of a thought presupposes someone who apprehends it, who thinks. A person is the bearer of the thinking but not of the thought.
Thus the thought, for example, which we expressed in the Pythagorean theorem is timelessly true, true independently of whether anyone takes it to be true. It needs no bearer. It is not true for the first time when it is discovered, but is like a planet which, already before anyone has seen it, has been in interaction with other planets. [1]
Yury2015 ( talk) 09:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello Andrew! What do you think about all that...
Dear colleagues, please tell me, how much time additional information to a certain article must be in talk page before it can be added to a certain article?--Yury2015 (talk) 10:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- There is no set amount of time. If the information is basic and uncontroversial, then it can be added right away. If it requires some discussion, then it's best to wait until a consensus has been reached.
- That said, often things on talk pages get overlooked. So, it might be best to alert some of the more recent/regular contributors to the article of the presence of new information on the talk page. Dismas (talk) 10:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- The talk page for thought is not busy. I suggest that you state more precisely what it is that you want to add to the article and where you propose adding it, and then leave it for two weeks to wait for responses. I note with amusement that, two sections above yours on that talk page, there is a long advertisement for gazebos, the only Wikipedia contribution of a registered editor. Maproom (talk) 10:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- I removed the spam.―Mandruss ☎ 11:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I added that section to the article "Thought"
- "We do not produce thoughts" approach
According to a number of famous philosophers - thoughts aren't produced, aren't formed by the person. Thoughts are timelessly true and are only apprehended by the person. In his work “The Thought: A Logical Inquiry” famous German mathematician, logician and philosopher Gottlob Frege writes that we don't produce thoughts, we apprehend (formulate) them. The apprehension of a thought presupposes someone who apprehends it, who thinks. A person is the bearer of the thinking but not of the thought. "Thus the thought, for example, which we expressed in the Pythagorean theorem is timelessly true, true independently of whether anyone takes it to be true. It needs no bearer. It is not true for the first time when it is discovered, but is like a planet which, already before anyone has seen it, has been in interaction with other planets. The Thought: A Logical Inquiry, Gottlob Frege. Mind, New Series, Vol.65, No.259 (Jul., 1956), p.302 "
- That's the result:
- (cur prev) 09:23, 11 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (23,915 bytes) (-1,007) . . (Undid good faith revision 646621159 by Yury2015 (talk). Please do not simply reapply your edits if reverted. As per wiki-best practice, take it to the talk page.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 08:43, 11 February 2015 Yury2015 (talk contribs) . . (24,922 bytes) (+1,007) . . (See Wikipedia:Five pillars In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others, we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately) (undo)
- (cur prev) 00:32, 11 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (23,915 bytes) (-201) . . (Actually this should be removed altogether. It is apparently self-published original research, and added in the face of conflict of interest issues.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 23:45, 10 February 2015 U3964057 (talk contribs) . . (24,116 bytes) (-1,007) . . (Undid good faith revision 646546256 by Yury2015 (talk). Uncited claims, clarity issues, and likely undue weight.) (undo thank)
- (cur prev) 20:26, 10 February 2015 Yury2015 (talk contribs) . . (25,123 bytes) (+1,007) . . (Adding information) (undo) --Yury2015 (talk) 12:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your addition to the article was apparently supported by a 1956 paper by Gottlob Frege. Frege died in 1925. I suggest to try to come up with a better source. Maproom (talk) 13:16, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you) Dear colleague, tell me please where can I read that kind of rule?
- Thank you dear colleagues for your comments. --Yury2015 (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- What kind of rule? The rule that we don't allow references that have highly questionable dates, or something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly! What dates are questionable? 10, 20, 30 - 100 years? May be than I should make the section "From the history of study of thought"? Aristotle did study thought and thinking.178.120.87.219 (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)Yury2015 (talk) 17:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yury2015, the problem is not the date that it was written, but that it was supposedly written by a dead person. If he died in 1925, he can't have written an article in 1956, you know? The guidelines about reliable sources can be found at WP:RS. — kikichugirl speak up! 03:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Friedrich Ludwig Gottlob Frege (/ˈfreɪɡə/;[3] German: [ˈɡɔtloːp ˈfreːɡə]; 8 November 1848 – 26 July 1925) was a German mathematician, logician and philosopher. He is considered to be one of the founders of modern logic and made major contributions to the foundations of mathematics. He is generally considered to be the father of analytic philosophy, for his writings on the philosophy of language and mathematics. While he was mainly ignored by the intellectual world when he published his writings, Giuseppe Peano (1858–1932) and Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) introduced his work to later generations of logicians and philosophers. Yury2015 ( talk) 08:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello Andrew! At last I got a free minute! Here is another notable source - I hope Hegel is notable for you!
"According to Hegel, the thinking of a person, and concepts, judgments and conclusions aren't a product and result of functioning of a person nervous system, activity of a brain, and even subjective activity of the individual. Hegel sees thinking as a certain step in development of an absolute idea". A.O Makovelsky . History of logic. M., 1967, p . 477 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yury2015 ( talk • contribs) 11:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
--
"Thought can refer to the ideas or arrangements of ideas that result from thinking, the act of producing thoughts, or the process of producing thoughts. " -- this is unacceptably wishy-washy and doesn't work as a definition. it's even circular! in short a terrible first line for the article. -- 99.232.96.123 ( talk) 01:43, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
-- Jordache --
This is a brand. It's logo is that of a Pegasus, not a horse, but it still has no wings. Like angels fly. It has to do with the coloring of the symbol not the text. Perhaps some input on synesthesia would be greatly appreciated here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7751:2D0:1AA:8BBD:340A:BD14 ( talk) 23:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
-- Jordache --
This is a brand. It's logo is that of a Pegasus, not a horse, but it still has no wings. Like angels fly. It has to do with the coloring of the symbol not the text. Perhaps some input on synesthesia would be greatly appreciated here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyptic ( talk • contribs) 23:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
how did all people thinking now best wishes from neuroscientist Nino Bauszus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.157.80.122 ( talk) 12:36, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
It's somewhat upsetting that the section on the philosophical take on the problem of thought starts with Martin Heidegger. Not that he is irrelevant, quite on the contrary. But thought is one of the central themes of philosophy ever since its conception. Perivangrini ( talk) 09:12, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Paragraph 3 of this article begins with Thinking allows humans to make sense of, interpret, represent or model the world they experience, and to make predictions about that world. Don't animals do that? Without neurons, plants also make predictions -- consider the pliable phenotype of plants growing in shade or sun. If that is not thinking how does it differ? My point is the italicized statement is vague and too specific at the same time. Partridgefoot ( talk) 01:56, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
This
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#REDIRECT [[Thought]] {{Rcat shell| {{R related}} {{R hatnote}} {{R printworthy}} }}
The {{ Redirect category shell}} (Rcat shell) template is used to sort redirects into one or more categories. When {{ pp-protected}} and/or {{ pp-move}} suffice, the Redirect category shell template will detect the protection level(s) and categorize the redirect automatically. (Also, the categories will be automatically removed or changed when and if protection is lifted, raised or lowered.) Thank you in advance, and Happy Holidays! Paine Ellsworth put'r there 16:36, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to cite this article in a college paper, but the link to professor Marić's book gave me a 404 error. I don't know how to fix it, if someone knows, please. Frajolex ( talk) 17:17, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
A larger wiki forum on this area may be found at sense-think-act.org which may be of interest to contributors to this area... Szczels 12:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I made an edit to the Theories of thinking section, Platonism subject which was soon reverted by User:Phlsph7, and returning later finding such made another, only to once more have undone by User:Phlsph7. I don't mean to suggest that the content of the original was necessarily problematic. I do know, however, that the plurality of antecedent ought find agreement with any subsequent usage of pronoun (viz Platonic forms implies original ones and not one), and that any supposed difficulty in thinking would arise most likely through an inability rather than ability (viz able should instead be written unable or ill-able). The edits caught my attention mainly because the structure was awkward to grasp, as opposed to any specific intention I had to add anything new to their content. Lispenard ( talk) 07:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Lispenard ( talk) 07:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
so here's what I got so far:
Viewed as such, difficulty in the mind's realisation stems from being less than adept at grasping thought wherein Platonic forms might arise, and thus fail to behold in these their original Natures - distinct from the but mere glimpses we receive through the sensory world. Succeeding meant, to illustrate, being both able to experience Beauty herself - together, yet alone, and at once in harmony - with all her derivative manifestations in all their diverse attribute, variform aspect, and unremitting splendour.
Lispenard ( talk) 20:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
IMO, there is nothing wrong with adding the definition from the textbook Clinical psychiatry by the author, professor Maric. It is well formulated, concise and clear. Therefore, I will be restoring the one sentence definition that was there prior to improvements made by the other major contributors. Vs6 507 18:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Let's take a look at the sentence:
Thought is defined as an "aim-oriented flow of ideas and associations that can lead to a reality-oriented conclusion".
aim-oriented means oriented towards a goal or an aim.
Flow is a fairly common noun.
Ideas and associations too.
Reality-oriented conclusion is a conclusion that is based on reality, in other words what is real.
Therefore, for example, my idea was to check if there is still this definition there for people to read it and gain knowledge from it. The association was this article on the English Wikipedia, which was, as I suppose, thanks to you greatly improved. My conclusion would be that you don't like the content. WP:IDONTLIKEIT
My suggestions would be:
Kindly,
Vs6 507 18:43, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Do you concur with the addition of the improved version of the definition from that page in this form:
Thought is a mental process, that consists of ideas and associations, which allows beings to come to conclusions, be conscious, make decisions, imagine and, in general, operate on symbols in a rational or irrational manner.
Vs6 507 18:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
You're right. I've tried to improve it. What about this one:
Thought is defined as a mental process consisted of ideas and associations. It can lead to logical or irrational conclusions. During a thought process conscious cognition can happen independently of sensory stimulation.
Vs6 507 19:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)