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It would help the NPOV if we could aseemble a verifiable list of Thelamites. Being an individualist-based philosphy we will have an ecclectic group, but this is the only way to give people a realistic and honest interpretation. The list on the O.T.O. page is a start, but they only seem to list Thelamites that are "accepted" and "respectable." This is a serious disservice to NPOV. People like Ebony Anpu, Timothy Leary, and Robert Anton Wilson should all be included. <3 Captain Barrett 21:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Some information on Aiwass and Crowleys attitude to this entity is needed to put the reception of Liber AL into context? Also the magickal alter ego LAM is needed. Thoughts? -- Redblossom 00:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering, since Thelema is a religous practcie, what is the role of God or gods in Thelema? I am not merely asking this out of curiosity, but I think a section should be included in this article, if for nothing more than the fact that people associate religion with a God or gods. If Thelema does not address this, then that should be added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeZ9Alt ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Why has the list of authors who address Thelema been reduced to only those who are considered "notable"? This seems like vandalism especially since not all those remaining listed are "notable" by W'pedia standards. The list of all published authors on the topic of Thelema is not a long one. Why not keep the complete list? -- Thiebes 20:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think someone should add something about Heinlein. Many of his books follow this philosophy to a 't' (Time Enough for Love, I Will Fear No Evil), plus his book 'Job' describes Gnosticism like a textbook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.212.169 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
In considering which, if any, links to delete, please keep in mind Wikipedia's guidelines for what links to avoid:
Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by J. Ash Bowie ( talk • contribs) 04:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Since there is already a section titled "Thelemic organizations" which as far as I can tell has internal links to every article on a Thelemic organization currently present on Wikpedia, I've reverted the article to remove the direct external links to these organizations. If I have removed any external links which meet the "What should be linked" policy, aren't already linked from the Notes or References, and don't run afoul of the "Links normally to be avoided policy", then by all means add them back.
However, please note that links to social networking sites, forum, blogs, etc. are not permitted. That rules out thelema.nu in my opinion. If it is sufficiently notable (i.e. meets WP:WEB), an article could be written about the site and it could be linked from there. The normal way to provide access to such sites and other sites which don't meet the linking policy is to add a link to the Open Directory Project (DMOZ). This has been done. IPSOS ( talk) 14:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll copy this with expansion from Talk:List of Thelemites in case someone deletes the whole list now that I've drawn attention to the page: Now that 999 aka Hanuman Das aka User:Ekajati has gotten himself banned, perhaps we can discuss this again. Does anyone see a reason to put people who did not provably self-identify as Thelemites on this list? Crowley did indeed write an essay purporting to prove that Rabelais foresaw his whole religion. (Our banned friend called this an "admission" when defining Thelema.) But this understandably seems like a minority view among Rabelais scholars (in the sense that I haven't seen any credible scholar make this claim). In fact, it seems strikingly similar to claims that the 'Old Testament' clearly predicts the life of Jesus, and I don't think Crowley could fail to see this. You can't take anything the man says at face value. So how about we limit the name to people who verifiably called themselves Thelemites?
To extend 999's old analogy, Paul in Romans 13:8-10 says that Christians have exactly one commandment to follow on Earth. And plenty of people mentioned this brief Law before the alleged birth of Jesus. Some of them used the equivalent of the word "Christ". Nobody disputes that the word "Christian" comes from them. Yet we wouldn't call them Christians on Wikipedia, because they would not self-identify and indeed might take offense if they knew about it. So why call anyone before Crowley a Thelemite unless we can find them using the name for themselves? We can describe all the history in the article and mention attempts to draft Rabelais into the religion without asserting any disputed claim as fact. Dan 19:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This particular misuse of Crowley's writing has finally been explored in a polemic that traces the actual context and use of the paragraph. It is a blatant misrepresentation to continue to tangle words in such a manner. It would be wise to provide either a more appropriate context for the paragraph or remove it as not supporting the contention being made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.57.103.2 ( talk) 17:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This person is cited throughout this article and I called his credibility as a source into question, and my {{ vc}} [unreliable source] tags were simply deleted with the comment that he was not self-published. This is not sufficient to establish him as a credible source on the subject, however. See Verifiability: Sources for more information. We should remove these citations and any claims dependent on them unless the source can be demonstrated as reliable. -- Thiebes ( talk) 16:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Aiwass seems like a better place for this dispute. Dan ( talk) 00:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Judging by the talk pages, we've reached consensus. Maybe respectable Rabelais scholars use the word "Thelema" to mean a real-world philosophy that comes from Rabelais, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence. It really seems like not one person unambiguously called themselves a Thelemite or professed Thelema by name before April 1904. And while I may have forgotten someone, I don't recall any self-described Thelemites who are not secretly User:Ekajati claiming they follow Rabelais with no influence from Uncle Al or Liber AL. (The reference that seems closest says, "Rabelais is a convenient name to show that Crowley borrowed his ideas and was just one thread in much wider fabric.") So I'll change the article to reflect this as soon as I have time.
I'll try to keep the claims of Mahendranath (and the historical material of course) unless somebody can give a better reason to remove them. (That's why it may take me time.) I also agree that we should talk about the essay Antecedents of Thelema. Except we should mention and take into account the parts that make it all sound like deliberate parody of Christians talking about "the Old Testament":
Was the mighty spirit of Alcofribas Nasier aware of the prophetic fire of his immortal book? He has fortunately left us in no doubt upon this point; for he did not content himself with having created in parable that Abbey of Thelema which his eager gaze foresaw from the black abyss of those Ages not yet thrilled by the Morning Star of the Renaissance, and dimly heralded by the Wolf's Tail of the Reformation. He proceeded to envelop himself in the mist of oracular speech, to fulminate his light through dark sayings, to clothe the naked beauty of his Time-piercing thought in the pontifical vestments of prophecy. The reader of today plunged from the limped waters of his allegory into the glooming gulfs of sibylline and subterranean song, is startled indeed when, after repeated efforts to penetrate the mystery of his versicles, he perceives the adumbration of dim forms--and recognizes them, with something of terror, for the images of the events of this very generation of mankind! (...) A great flame will spring up, he says, and put an end to this flood. What clearer reference could be desired to the Aeon of Horus?
Any non-sock-puppet objections? Dan ( talk) 20:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Done. See what you think of that quote's presentation. I found a source for one blindingly obvious point.
Dan (
talk) 07:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And so you revert the whole article? I assume you mean the forum quote pointing out the obvious, which I included as a courtesy. It is indeed reliable as an example of a human reaction, which is how I used it. You know I'll get checkuser to compare you with another Starwood Festival editor, right? Dan ( talk) 17:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Look, I tried to find someone calling themselves a Thelemite and claiming to follow Rabelais "instead" of Crowley (see the citation needed in the Contemporary section of the article). I found people citing this article, and in one case attacking it as a badly written misrepresentation of Thelema. Dan ( talk) 18:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
There are serious problems with the massive changes implemented by Dan. They make Crowleyan Thelema primary. This article as it was is very balanced and the intro given a chronological introduction to the subject. It is much more difficult to understand the history and development of Thelema by starting with Crowley. Crowley's use of the word was clearly derivative from earlier sources. No one but fundamentalist Crowleyites (or to use a more recent term Aleisterians) dispute this. While I am sure improvements could be made to the article, a massive restructuring and reordering is a step backwards. 84.147.98.77 ( talk) 20:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I see you are now misrepresenting Sabazius' comment over at RFPP. His comment had absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia and does not mention Wikipedia. It is an example of the ongoing differences of opinion between the two type of Thelemite described in the article. What in the world would make you think otherwise? 194.187.213.89 ( talk) 23:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
As for no one calling themselves a "Rabelaisian Thelemite", that's easily disprovable. Tim Maroney, a well-known figure in Thelemic circles, called himself just that. [1]. 217.114.211.20 ( talk) 23:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Rabelaisian (upon whom Crowley based his 'Thelemic' notions). the true Thelemite is one who identifies hir will and abides it with consistency. that will tends not to (by my observation) include offense to the words of others unless there is something to be gained in the taking of the offense (as to instruct, to change the course of the medium of expression, or to express emotional feeling -- compared with merely parrotting some moral platitude or conforming to the social mores of the day, playing the victim)." from [5]. 88.80.200.144 ( talk) 00:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above presentation of supposed evidence of an ongoing dispute of ideas is seems to come from discussions on usenet and yahoogroups and a variety of personal opinions expressed online in various forums. It is not the place of Wikipedia editors to do original research and attempt to present the various opinions of all people who may have discussed or put forward an opinion. If this "dispute" has been documented in a reliable source that published by a third party, peer reviewed and fact-checked, then let this article simply make the claims as they are made in such reliable sources. Gathering the opinions of individuals and presenting those as reputable, authoritative, or even representative constitutes both original research and unreliable sourcing. -- Thiebes ( talk) 18:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, your claim that the source do not say what the article says is complete bunk. From Mahendranath:
This source says specifically that Dashwood revived the Abbey and that Crowley revived and reformed Rabelais... The other sources cited do back up this view, that's why they were cited. 88.80.200.144 ( talk) 00:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Rabelaisian Thelema is also called pre-Crowley, pre-Crowleyan or pre-Crowlian or non-Crowley or non-Crowleyan. Here is an example of the usage of non-Crowleyan Thelema from 2000: [7]. 88.68.104.56 ( talk) 00:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan, I don't understand what you mean by this "question at hand" rubbish. You use of links to earlier discussion doesn't mean anything to me either. I don't get what you are saying or trying to say. I've asked you some very direct questions about specific language in the article, but you ignore those questions. Please answer them, and if you have statements or questions to make, please make or ask them here and now in text, not with links which simply confuse me as to what you mean. Thanks. 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S. In other words, you aren't making any sense to me. 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 04:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Whoever is making repeated reverts, using multiple IPs, knock it off. If you disagree with a change, discuss it here and work toward consensus. Reverting edits which have been discussed in advance is not the way it is done. A single person does not gain dominance over Wikipedia articles by being the most intent and prolific reverter. It is not a race. Explain your point of view and cultivate consensus. Thiebes ( talk) 08:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
From Tim Maroney on USENET, 1990: [9]
From Bill Heidrick on USENET, 1995: [10]
From the latter: "Rabelaisian Thelema had entered the European literary milieu by the end of the 16th century. It is ubiquitous in many places, as untraceable in some as an molecule of water once imbibed and eliminated by Attila the Hun and now in a modern popsicle."
Clearly the term and the dialectic around it was not created by any Wikipedia editor. 212.224.71.3 ( talk) 14:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ RFCreli}} Disagreement about whether to present lead section in chronological order showing development on this philosophy/religion. 17:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan ( talk · contribs) wishes to rewrite the lead in non-chronological order. He infers a need from this from the fact that two single-purpose accounts have questioned one of the sources. In response, other supporting sources were found which agree with the history presented in the questioned source. None of the users involved has even acknowledged or discussed the additional sources presented, much less questioned them, yet Dan still proposes a non-chronological lead which makes Aleister Crowley out as the primary originator of something demonstrably originated by Rabelais.
The historical development of Thelema presented in the current lead is fully supported by multiple sources. It's widely known that Crowley derived his version of Thelema from pre-existing historical sources. Multiple independent sources acknowledge this. This attempt to make Crowley's made-up story that he "channelled" rather than simply wrote the Book of the Law primary by people who are believers in his "religion" is clearly POV based on conflict of interest. There are the supporting quotes:
212.227.82.218 ( talk) 17:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've been poking around the talk page archives, and found that the last outside opinion of the article was very positive and that the text of the article has hardly changed at all since then [11], except for the addition of more references and quotations within those references. That opinion read:
This seriously brings into question the burning need to "improve" it. 71.112.133.30 ( talk) 00:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the first sentence, perhaps the first few sentences, should focus on the "what is" of Thelema. We must reflect current discourse which allows of the possibility of people being thelemites w/o ever having heard of Crowley or even Rabelais. That is, the practice the maxim "Do what thou wilt."
The first sentence should contain "Do what thou wilt", this is more essential to Thelema than who dun it. The rest of the paragraph should explain why the word Thelema is related to the rule or law.
I propose the following first paragraph:
What do others think of this proposal? 70.112.55.203 ( talk) 19:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It seems some people are working under the false premise that only Crowley gets to define Thelema. That is simply not NPOV. Other people descriptions and definitions have to be taken into account, and the article can not be written in such a way that it implies that only the views of Crowley and his followers are the correct views. 212.227.82.218 ( talk) 20:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:RS and demonstrate the reliability of the following sources:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thiebes ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is heading toward good article status. However, the section on Crowley is weak, with many subsections lacking references. These should be secondary references, we can't be interpreting The Book of the Law by making a statement and simply citing Liber AL. I've seen an article out there on Ethics in Thelema, was that by Frater Ash? And Duquette's book ought to cover most or all of the practical aspects. Let's get the Crowley section cited! 78.52.90.29 ( talk) 07:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Central to the Thelemic experience
I don't believe Crowley ever referred to any practice or ritual as "central" to Thelema or "the Thelemic experience". The closest I can think of is his calling the Gnostic Mass the "central ritual of the O.T.O.", but that's an entirely different matter. I'd be very surprised indeed to find that Crowley called any practice or ritual "central" to Thelema. 85.140.207.159 ( talk) 19:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
controverscial.com is the personal website of this author, so his essay on Francis Dashwood is self-published and not a reliable source. Do you have some reason to believe he is a well-known writer on this and/or similar topics and has been published elsewhere? 58.176.17.98 ( talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Dan, Here's a list of a series of edits made separately so that each one could be explained. It is NOT a series of reverts because a series of edits is taken as a single edit for the purposes of 3RR. So, since Wikipedia is supposed to be collaborative, why don't you single out the edits that you disagree with, give a REASON WHY you disagree with it, and attempt to work out a compromise. I am and have all along been willing to do so, but you simply don't seem to be interested in discussing the actual content, but simply your own straw men. I agreed with some of your points and rewrote many parts of the article to address your objections, but you won't even discuss point-by-point with me? What's up with that? 88.191.34.70 ( talk) 14:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for actual discussion of content, as I've been requesting now for over a week. I'm not sure what you mean about "Ekajati's version". I'm not reverting to it. In case you hadn't noticed, I've moved the article quite a ways from what you call "Ekajati's version" and most of my reverts are to my own edits, content that wasn't here when we started this. As for your "growing list of editors", you seem to mean three, maybe four? Editors who don't seem very active and strangely enough are never here at the same time? Those editors, Dan? Now you. you seem to be a real editor, with over 1000 edits and they aren't all to Thelemic articles. But Thiebes has a total of 54 edits, Stealthepiscopalian has 21 edits, and the mysterious Antaios632 has a grand total of 10 edits. Is it any wonder no established Wikipedia editors have bothered with your pathetic RfC? This sort of situation is what WP:THIRD is for... 24.205.159.15 ( talk) 05:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Note: your version is not under discussion, I don't consider it an option. It lacks the breadth of vision and NPOV required of a good article candidate. 88.191.50.87 ( talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
We'll start with point 10, since you say it is the most important.
Dan said: "minor point: replaced accurate claim with false one. Also for some reason removed a well-known fact with many possible sources available through an Internet near you."
Response: I've replaced "three" with "several" which I believe resolves the inaccuracy. I am not responsible for searching out sources for uncited information which you added. You are. Will in China ( talk) 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe this has been resolved by using "may have" rather than "many believe". The issue here is not what people believe or how many believe it, it's that the simple common sense answer to where Crowley got the word Thelema and the phrase "Do what thou wilt" is Rabelais. We can't trust what Crowley said about preternatural entities. Unlikely claims require strong sources. Since there are no reliable thrid-party eyewitness accounts to the event, we have to defer to common sense. Will in China ( talk) 18:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed all mention of Crowley in this section, as well as the sections on Rabelais and Dashwood. What Crowley says about these two points belongs in the Crowley section if it is important. I leave it to you to determine how best to integrate it with the existing references to Antecedents already in that section. These sections are under the heading Historical background, not Opinions expressed by Crowley on the historical background. How Crowley integrated the past usages of what became his Law of Thelema is explicitly part of Aleister Crowley's work. I am not prejudiced against bringing these points up in that section. Will in China ( talk) 18:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
You say this is a critical point of Crowley's system. Then why is it reduced to a footnote? In general, footnotes are expected to be sources, not explanations. Please find a way to integrate what you think is important about this into the article text. Footnote it with the source, not further explanation. I just don't see what's so important about this myself or even see precisely what the actual point of your footnote is. So you can't possibly expect me to integrate the point myself, I don't get it. Neither will other readers. Have I made my reason clear? Can you find another way to integrate your important and critical point? I'm not deleting this to be stubborn. I'm deleting it because it is bad writing to do it this way... 88.191.50.87 ( talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Um, clearly you missed the point, because the new quote does not mention the Law of Thelema. Dan ( talk) 05:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought I put it in a footnote with a clear explanation in the text (clear enough because it comes after Skepticism, though I guess we should link astral plane or Astral_plane#The_astral_plane_and_astral_experience.) I don't understand your position here. Dan ( talk) 18:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The section tries to explain how Magick relates to Thelema, the quote gives an explicit example of this, I tried to explain it clearly, what's the problem? Dan ( talk) 18:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Dan says: "weren't you just telling us somewhere that Wikipedia does not interpret scripture? And yet here you are doing it, giving a disputed interpretation as fact. (Are you noticing a theme here?) Would you prefer we added, "in the view of one guy"?"
Response: there's a subtlety here that you are missing. You are correct that as Wikipedia editors we can not personally attempt to interpret scripture. But we can certainly report what other people have written about it. And no, it would not be approprate to add "in the view of one guy". The correct way to proceed would be to cite another source which differs on the topic. Nobody I think would disagree that Crowley spoke a about non-interference. But does anybody say that some specific verse in Liber AL dictates non-interference. That's the question here. If you come up with another POV, then we can determine how to word the some people think this, some people think that. But without the example, how would you suggest we proceed. We can't misreport what the source says simply because you dispute his interpretation. Will in China ( talk) 18:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I see what you mean about the word both. I've rephrased again without it. Nowhere does the section say that the practices listed were or are required of everyone or that they were or are taught to everyone. It is simply a list of the types of magick and other ritual put forth by Crowley as parts of his system, which you call Thelema. I personally distinguish between Thelema and magick, with the latter unnecessary to the former, but as that is clearly not the majority view I feel no need to cause even more of a dispute over that particular detail. Will in China ( talk) 18:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Here I must disagree. This is a significant statement by Crowley, and that is what this section is about - Crowley's definitions of Thelema, not Contemporary Thelema. If you want to balance it under the heading of Contemporary Thelema by indicating that this one of Crowley's opinions about True Will has been discarded by specific groups of Modern Thelemites (with citations of course), then that would be the proper way of handling it. I'm not aware of any Thelemites objecting to his opinion in writing during Crowley's lifetime, are you? -Will in China 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In case you aren't aware, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to present Thelema in the most palatable light to attract followers, which seems to be part of your agenda. It is the purpose of Wikipedia to be historically accurate and complete. This is not a fact about Crowley's definitions and opinions to be swept under the rug. It is a significant fact potentially affecting around half of his potential followers during his life... -Will in China 05:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.27.53 ( talk)
I removed the long quote from Antecedents simply because it is completely incomprehensible. And because you are attempting to interpret it, which is not allowed under WP:OR. It's way too long and breaks up the flow of the article. If you want to find a way to put it in a footnote, without attempting to interpret it or even implying that it is intended as "humour", go ahead. We both know that Crowley could also write like this with complete seriousness. But I think your point is actually your forbidden interpretation of the text and the quote is simply an excuse to add your point. If some published commentator has made your same point about this particular quote, by all means add it, but in some way that doesn't completely distract from the presentation of the article. If you prefer, we could compromise by removing the bit about Crowley calling Rabelais "Our Master". However, I think he said that in all seriousness, regardless of whether any other part of the article is humor. You are trying to say that the use of "Our Master" is humor. Maybe we should also note that Crowley made Rabelais a Saint of his Gnostic Church for further balance. 80.141.112.117 ( talk) 14:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thelema here is not a reference to a Rabelasian philosophy. It's a reference to the Abbey, country and utopia. Thelema is the English translation of Thélème. Two points here, we should use the English translation in the heading on English Wikipedia, and because there are actually three referents making it more specific doesn't really work for me. Would your prefer "Thelema of Rabalais" or "Rabelais' Thélème". Somehow I think you will continue to not get the point. And I'm not reverting to Ekajati's version, which was "Rabalaisian Thelema". I changed it because you convinced me there was no such thing. And now you criticize my correction. There's no pleasing you apparently. 68.144.168.46 ( talk) 14:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what the problem is. Do you dispute that Crowley developed a system around the ideal of "Do what thou wilt"? Do you really think using "championed" rather than "promoted" is really necessary? Try to be more clear about exactly what you think the problem is with my compromise attempt. Will in China ( talk) 19:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A Third opinion has been requested, but it appears from the signed posts that five or more editors are participating. How many are actually involved in this dispute? — Athaenara ✉ 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is a self-identification as a Thelemite in 1841, before Crowley was born... Another interesting document using the term Thelemite from 1863 is this editorial, The Modern Thelemite. -Will in China 01:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(Lost track here.) It took me a while to figure out what Will meant about the Liber II quote. Since the article goes on to speak of Buddhist and tantric traditions, and they do seem important here, why not just link nirvana so this reader you speak of can learn what the author meant? Dan ( talk) 02:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I need to challenge and query some of the points asserted in the Diversity of Thelemic Thought Section:
1: Who decided that LaSara Firefox was a notable Thelemite exactly? And why? She hasnt published any material that could be seen has Thelemic and the church of the Allworlds is not a Thelemic organisation. Unless there can be a reliable citation that doesnt involve a crap pagan "encyclopedia" i put forward that the LaSara Firefox reference be removed.
2: Amado Crowley. Although this person has made claims that have failed to stand up to scrutiny, including Amado Crowley in the Diversity of Thought section should be queried/challenged has well. Amados "material" is threadbare and he hasnt produced any written work that would suggest "Thelemic Diversity". So i put forward that this is removed has well unless references other than the "Dave Evans fan-club" are forth coming.
3: "Thelemites who practice other religions". Some of the assertions in this bit has well are open to challenge. How could a Thelemite be a Satanist when Satanism is subject to inverting christian parameters exactly? And vice versa? This doesnt stand up to any deep examination. I would argue that if your a Thelemite there is no need for any religion since you are seeking True Will. Why need the distraction of a religion when Thelema covers all the bases? Again i put forward that the 4th paragraph in the Diversity of Thelemic thought section is removed since it just contradicts itself.-- Redblossom ( talk) 14:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case Will in china then the good article criteria is not sufficient or its being abused to the point of laziness. Again i raise the point over the LaSara Firefox assertion. This person hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organisation that she is associated with is not Thelemic in nature. And the reference used hasnt published which page or the context of saying she is "Thelemic". That single reference is very dubious unless it can be verified through a secondary source. So i still put forwrd the motion that the firefox citation is removed until there is clarity on it. The second point over "Amado Crowley" still stands. He is not a prominent Thelemite in the eyes of Thelemites due to his fabrications over his fake "history" of Crowley. If he is going to be used in the article it should be has him making claims about himself and Crowley that cant be verified. But he shouldnt be listed has a "prominent Thelemite" and he shouldnt be used in the diversity of Thelemic thought since the material he uses is very contradictory and is at times nonsensical. If you are a Thelemite who knows his history Will in china, you should know this already. So i dont understand why your defending his inclusion in the diversity of Thelemic thought. With regard to Dave Evans yes he does have a PHD but his material is "clouded" by his personal tastes and he has been very negative to Crowley and certain Thelemites in his writing raising issue over neutrality over his work. Again if you are a Thelemite you should know this already Will in china. (Alas its the same with all historians with an axe to grind). Also Evans is not in a postion to decide whether or not "Amado Crowleys" work is "Thelemic" in any way since Evans is an academic and not a practicing Thelemite, and "Amado" himself hasnt given a very good account of himself when challenged over this his work. So using Evans work to justify "Amado" has a form of Thelemic diversity doesnt stand up to query or scrutiny. Again he may be "qualified" in academia but but not in Thelemic matters.
So to summmarise i put forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members that the LaSara Firefox reference is removed until a better reference is used or the context of the reference is elaborated further ( if it actually exists in the context it is being used here). That the mentions of "Amado Crowley" be moved elsewhere in the Thelema article under claims of legitimacy but not under Thelemic diversity. And that the "Thelemites who practice other religions" be removed since thats just contradiction. If a person has a fair grasp behind Thelema then the idea that they need another "religion" is just ludicrous and not well thought out. I look forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members cleaning this up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 18:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not asserting what Thelema "should" be. I am challenging the inclusion of some points that are dubious at best. LaSara Firefox hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organsiation she is with is not Thelemic in nature. So why her inclusion has a prominent Thelemite? It just comes across has an advertisement for her and her organsiation. (the same applies to the Sam Webster inclusion has a prominent Thelemite) The inclusion comes across has nonsensical.
Secondly the Amado Crowley assertion still stands. It's dubious at best that his career should be seen has an expression has Thelemic diversity when he has made negative claims against the Liber AL, and other prominent Thelemites. So again this needs to be decided upon collectively to be moved under a sub section of maybe legitimacy claims but not an example of Thelemic diversity.
Thirdly, again i dont see the point or the need for a section expressing a dubious assertion that some self proclaimed "Thelemites" follow other religions. This is a contradiction in the basic ideas expresed in Liber AL that casts aside mainstream relgion (pecking out the eyes of... and tearing away the flesh of... anyone?!) to follow a personal path beyond the constraints of any organisation that restricts personal will. So again i put forward the motion that that paragraph be removed, and replaced with something else entirely different showing the obvious differences between the ideas & freedom behind Thelema and the constraints apparent in religions. This would help to clarify the confusion and contradiction presented has some sort of "fact" in the article. Can we have a decision and some consensus on this WikiProject Thelema members?-- Redblossom ( talk) 13:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If we go by the criteria that you are suggesting Will in China then any person who says that they are a Thelemite (but are not) and its in print somewhere can by default be listed here on Wikipedia has a Thelemite. Do you see how daft that is? Secondly how is the LaSara Firefox assertion "vaild cited material"? And how would moving the Amado Crowley from the Thlemic diversity section to elsewhere affect neutrality of the article? Just has an observation there needs to be some criteria on who is a Thelemite under Wikipedia criteria. By my standards what consitiutes a "Thelemite" here would be laughed at in the real world (again the LaSara Firefox assertion being a point in case). I would like someone else from the Wikiproject Thelema group to look at my points to offer an alternative to Will in China's.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify what your suggesting there Will in china, is that Wikipedia is not an accurate source of information (Thelema), but is a collector of material (accurate/inaccurate) that has been printed/quoted about Thelema and is used to give a picture/idea of Thelema that is NOT accurate in the academic/historical/practical sense of the word. In that context, if any browser looks at the Thelema page they will get a general idea of Thelema but not an accurate one due to the limitations of Wikipedia's criteria and use of third party material that wouldnt stand up to scrutiny in a academic or historical environment. So Wikipedia doesnt "accurately report" on Thelema but uses/abuses printed material to present a "representation" of Thelema that may or may not be true/accurate, due to Wikipedias limitations and criteria. So even though the Thelema article might be GA standard on Wikipedia it is not an accurate or even decent portrayal of Thelema in the real world. This is the nature of the internet in that anyone can be an "expert" and pass of material that would be laughed at in the real world, but is seen has "fact" on Wikipedia. If it was up to me a lot of the article would be gutted and started from scratch, but alas it seems there are vested interests here who are seeking to make a name/career for themselves using Wikipedia. C'est La Vie!!-- Redblossom ( talk) 06:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Will in China, being a Thelemite is a bit more than just "Do what thou wilt" and its simplistic to suggest so. And a fair bit of the Thelema article is simplistic has well.Various religions up to a point put the god/goddess's will first ahead of the follower. This is in contradiction to the ideas set out in LIber AL. So again i say that the article is portraying contradiction and falsehood has some sort of fact on Thelema. Like i said Wikipedia has its limitations and the article on Thelema displays that weakness. Can we have someone who actually knows what they are talking about concerning Thelema address the issues of some of the points i have made?-- Redblossom ( talk) 20:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to highlight another misinformed contradiction. When a Thelemite engages in their practice the main body of work is to find their "true will" We can all agree on that. So from that point of view, how does appeasement and surrendering of their will to a god or goddess of a religion fit the Thelemic requirement of finding true will? It doesnt. So the idea of people saying they are "Thelemite" but they make appeasements and surrender to deities doesnt meet the Thelemic model of finding and maintaining true will. It just a confusing contradiction that doesnt make any sense by Thelemic criteria. Whereas religion promotes the will of the said deity/god Thelema promotes the development of true will without corruption or interference. So can someone explain to me the contradiction of the Wikipedia article allowing this confusion of so called "Thelemites" saying that they engage in the practice of religions? To me its just confused people wanting to have their cake and eat it, without any thought or genuine understanding. Doesnt make any sense.-- Redblossom ( talk) 20:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually i am not making the mistake of putting Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions with Christianity. Most religions make appeasements and observations to their specific deity (Green Tara/Buddhism, Shiva in Hinduism, ext) Most religions make appeasement and appreciations to their specific deities. Thelemas purpose of finding individual true will contradicts the view of deity based religions. So again it is a contradcition. How can true will be found if the follower of religion accepts that their existence is merely the will of said god/deity? Again the contradiction.-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_%28Buddhism%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism
The wiki articles above dont back you up on that point. Liber Astarte has got nothing to do with making appeasements to deity /gods.Liber Astarte is a training technique to move beyond human consciousness & to identify with the starting point of creation. If you have studied it then you would realise that, so how that correlates with the argument made about the contradictions stated by the poster hasnt been argued.Also your use of the Liber AL quote is also being taken out of context of its original useage (which is a common problem of Liber AL) to fit your contradictory argument, so again your point is flawed and weak. Again this is the weakness of anyone posting on Wikipedia, in that poor argument and a lack of understanding can be passed off has some sort of "fact". And anyone can be an expert. I back up the original posters point that the article does need a clean up, starting with the religion points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.25.50 ( talk) 18:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am a former member of the Thelema WikiProject, and you have requested that someone else comment on your three points:
I will ask you the same thing that i asked in my posts. If a person says that they are a Thelemite but they follow a religion that makes appeasements to deities of said religion , how is that Thelemic? How is the person fulfilling the criteria of being in a state of true will when they are putting the will of the said deity ahead of their own individual will? I assert that they are not. Therefore they are not being Thelemic. Again this is contradiction that is presenting a misleading representation of Thelema on the part of the article i am focusing on. The subsection in question needs cleaned up edited to deal with this contradiction. Like i said earlier Wikipedia does have its limitations and the diversity sub section shows this off cruelly. To me this argument of using citations & references for people who merely call themselves Thelemic is making the Thelema article look dubious at best. If we go by the criteria for Wikipedia if someone can get a citation stating that George W Bush said he is a "Thelemite" then under Wikipedia criteria lo and behold he is a Thelemite!! See how ludicrous that is? If this is supposed to be a GA article under Wikipedia criteria then the criteria is laughable and sub standard.-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I put forward the motion that the Thelema page has its Good Article status removed. Under Wiki criteria an article needs to be factually accurate. The Thelema page is not factually accurate. And will not be due to a lot of issues.
1: Inclusion of citations presenting Thelema has a religion. This is not a fact. Thelema being presented has a religion is not a fact. Its not a provable fact. So it doesnt meet Good Article criteria. Also the issue over that the Thelemic community cant agree unanimously/collectively on what Thelema "is" and "is not". So the article would needs to reflect that more clearly. At this time the article doesnt do that.
2: Some sub sections on the page are just poorly written and needs serious clean up. I have put forward this proposal, but it has been met by resistance from some posters who are quite defensive about the page. So again because of this i put forward that the page has its GA status removed until there is some mutual consensus on a workable clean up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 13:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Some points that need attention:
The inclusion of Israel Regardie in the Thelemic literature section. Regardie never wrote in books on Thelemic practice. Most of it was Golden Dawn and Kabbalah material. Secondly he never stated that he was Thelemic (which is important). So the inclusion of Regardie has an example of Thelemic literature is not factual or correct.
The inclusion of the Thelema in comparitive religion sub section is contradictory due to the point that the Thelemic community cant agree on what Thelema is or isnt. So the attempt of including Thelema has comparitive religion is a contradicition therefore not giving the reader a clear accurate picture. This sub section needs removed or cleaned up to address the contradictions.
The inclusion of Liber Samekh has a Thelemic Ritual. Liber Samekh is not Thelemic practice. It deals with union with an exterior entity that is the HGA. Although used by some Thelemites in magickal practice its not a ritual that helps personal will but more aligns the practioner with the exterior will of the HGA to alow the practioner to survive a magickal state of consciousness. The Hymenaeus Beta reference (54) is personal opinion that contradicts the work of other occultists like Kenneth Grant who state that the HGA exists in its own right and is not a personal expression of personal true will. So ref 54 is not reliable or useful to helping the casual reader understand the concepts. I propose that ref 54 is removed and that Liber Samekh is removed from the practices and observances sub section.
The cosmology section needs expanded and indepth focus on the symbolism of the Egyptian dieites in the context of Liber AL and Crowleys understanding (and misunderstanding) of these concepts. Theres much more but i leave it at that to allow an intelligent response and allow a workable clean up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to go by Wikipedia's own critera on Good article status. The two main points are 1: Well written. In this context it allows the reader to get a fair graps of a subject with plain english and no contradctions. 2: Factually accuarate. where an assertion can be factually accurate. The article doesnt meet these two main criteria.
To use the GA criteria for the Israel Regardie inclusion in Thelemic literature. This is not accurate. Regardie wasnt a Thelemite. Yes he did write on Crowley's history, but does this count has being Thelemic literature? Maybe history yes. Not Thelemic . Also since most of Regardie's work concerns Golden Dawn magick and the use of the Qabbalah this will confuse the casual reader. So again it doesnt help GA status.
The Hymenaeus Beta issue is different. He is the head of the Caliphate OTO solely. He doesnt speak for all Thelemites. Only the limited membership of the Caliphate. Which has its own agenda concerning Thelema. But thats not the point. The Beta reference has been taken out of context to give a misleading impression on Liber Samekh. In that context this is enough to either having it removed or finding a better reference (but there wont be one since it doesnt exist) The crux is whether Liber Samekh is a "Thelemic practice" or not. And under its own purpose it is not. So by its own nature and purpose its not a Thelemic practice or observation. So it should be removed. Or put in another section dealing with the evolution of Thelemic rituals bastardised from the Golden Dawn material.
The cosmology section doesnt give a clear picture on the ideas espoused by Liber AL under the GA criteria. So under that criteria it either needs to be worded/edited better or more material needs to be added to it so that it has more clarity. This would at least help under GA criteria.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I dont know why my request for reassessment of the GA status/criteria was seen has "inappropriate" by
Geometry guy. And there hasnt been any proper explanation for it to be seen has such. Like i said the whole article does need a clean up but GA satus still remains. Baffling. And no one as made an effort with putting aspects of Agape into the article. Sad.--
Redblossom (
talk) 16:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Also just to raise one of the points Will in china mentioned, concerning Liber Samekh. Will in china said there was "general agreement on Liber Samekh in Thelema. What agreement? Exactly? All we have is Crowleys work onit. Kenneth Grants writing on it, and we Duquettes cut & paste style of writing that just copies Croweys work with out any depth. I will quote some mistakes made by DuQuette who clearly has misundertood the purpose of the ritual (to show the citations worth is flimsy at best) From p133 of the magick of Thelema "by" Duquette:I quote " The HGA is the divine object of devotion of the Bhakti Yogi: Krishan to the Hindu : Christ to the Christian." Unquote. This is a nonsense going by Crowleys own crtieria. THe HGA is a link between the divine and the seeker. THe HGA is not a god/deity. DuQuette's argument that the HGA is equal to Krishna or Christ is ludicrous. Look up the reference of you dont believe me (p133) 1993 edition. So if we go by DuQuettes silly argument then Liber Samekh is all about surendering of ones will. so therfore its not a Thelemic ritual under criteria of what true will is in its uncorrupted form. If Liber Samekh is going to be presented has a "Thelemic ritual" then a better citation-reference (in context to the ritual and its use) will need to be found. Also even DuQuette's "variation" on Liber Samekh is less that perfect and will cause confusion in beginners wanting to geta grasp of the ritual. and it doesnt help that Duquette doesnt explain himself. So again i put forward that unless that a cast iron reference can be used that is bullet proof then Liber Samekh is not a Thelemic ritual.-- Redblossom ( talk) 16:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph of the article it says that "Crowley founded a relgion called Thelema". This is a POV being presented as some sort of bullet proof fact. There is no collective agreement in the Thelemic community on whether Thelema is a religion. So why is this statement allowed to stand? Could a better wording not be found? Like spiritual movement? Or Philosophy?-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The number 3 citation used by WillinChina to suggest Thelema is a "religion" is a nonsense. John Michael Greer's writing is merely a primer and Greer is not qualified to say what Thelema is or isnt. So the citation is nonsense. Also this goes back to my point of confusing the casual reader. In one sentence the article is saying Thelema is a philosophy. Then in another its saying its a religion. Confusing for the average reader. And also not true. So again we are seeing the low standards of criteria for a GA status.--
Redblossom (
talk) 16:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Also just has a add-on where does the statement from Crowley : "There is no God but man" fit into this so called "religion"?-- Redblossom ( talk) 16:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok where exactly can i put my reference number? On the page it says "Crowley founded a religion called Thelema" but on the edit page this does not appear /exist. Some clarity on this would be much appreciated.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I've undid the current revisions to what I think is the better version. We can discuss it here instead of changing it everyday with no conversation. The way I see it, a link repair was done to bypass a redirect. Tarot needs no more elaboration in this article, and its obvious what it means. — Maggot Syn 00:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
How is the word pronounced in English? "THE-le-ma"? "the-LEE-ma"? Someone please add pronunciation guide. SpectrumDT ( talk) 17:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that the whole damn thing be deleted. The whole article is a farce designed by committee. No wonder Thelema has so many terminology problems. People here are neither qualified (obviously) nor inclined to discuss the properties of a religion (of which Thelema meets every academic qualification) or the particular tenets of Thelema itself. At least I have finally understand why academic institutions do not allow Wikipedia to be quoted as any kind of authoritative source. Articles designed by committees of unqualified editors who aren't even competent in the subject matter in the first place is for the birds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.62.28 ( talk) 23:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
It would help the NPOV if we could aseemble a verifiable list of Thelamites. Being an individualist-based philosphy we will have an ecclectic group, but this is the only way to give people a realistic and honest interpretation. The list on the O.T.O. page is a start, but they only seem to list Thelamites that are "accepted" and "respectable." This is a serious disservice to NPOV. People like Ebony Anpu, Timothy Leary, and Robert Anton Wilson should all be included. <3 Captain Barrett 21:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Some information on Aiwass and Crowleys attitude to this entity is needed to put the reception of Liber AL into context? Also the magickal alter ego LAM is needed. Thoughts? -- Redblossom 00:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering, since Thelema is a religous practcie, what is the role of God or gods in Thelema? I am not merely asking this out of curiosity, but I think a section should be included in this article, if for nothing more than the fact that people associate religion with a God or gods. If Thelema does not address this, then that should be added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeZ9Alt ( talk • contribs) 10:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Why has the list of authors who address Thelema been reduced to only those who are considered "notable"? This seems like vandalism especially since not all those remaining listed are "notable" by W'pedia standards. The list of all published authors on the topic of Thelema is not a long one. Why not keep the complete list? -- Thiebes 20:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I think someone should add something about Heinlein. Many of his books follow this philosophy to a 't' (Time Enough for Love, I Will Fear No Evil), plus his book 'Job' describes Gnosticism like a textbook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.212.169 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
In considering which, if any, links to delete, please keep in mind Wikipedia's guidelines for what links to avoid:
Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject—and not prohibited by restrictions on linking—one should avoid:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by J. Ash Bowie ( talk • contribs) 04:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Since there is already a section titled "Thelemic organizations" which as far as I can tell has internal links to every article on a Thelemic organization currently present on Wikpedia, I've reverted the article to remove the direct external links to these organizations. If I have removed any external links which meet the "What should be linked" policy, aren't already linked from the Notes or References, and don't run afoul of the "Links normally to be avoided policy", then by all means add them back.
However, please note that links to social networking sites, forum, blogs, etc. are not permitted. That rules out thelema.nu in my opinion. If it is sufficiently notable (i.e. meets WP:WEB), an article could be written about the site and it could be linked from there. The normal way to provide access to such sites and other sites which don't meet the linking policy is to add a link to the Open Directory Project (DMOZ). This has been done. IPSOS ( talk) 14:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll copy this with expansion from Talk:List of Thelemites in case someone deletes the whole list now that I've drawn attention to the page: Now that 999 aka Hanuman Das aka User:Ekajati has gotten himself banned, perhaps we can discuss this again. Does anyone see a reason to put people who did not provably self-identify as Thelemites on this list? Crowley did indeed write an essay purporting to prove that Rabelais foresaw his whole religion. (Our banned friend called this an "admission" when defining Thelema.) But this understandably seems like a minority view among Rabelais scholars (in the sense that I haven't seen any credible scholar make this claim). In fact, it seems strikingly similar to claims that the 'Old Testament' clearly predicts the life of Jesus, and I don't think Crowley could fail to see this. You can't take anything the man says at face value. So how about we limit the name to people who verifiably called themselves Thelemites?
To extend 999's old analogy, Paul in Romans 13:8-10 says that Christians have exactly one commandment to follow on Earth. And plenty of people mentioned this brief Law before the alleged birth of Jesus. Some of them used the equivalent of the word "Christ". Nobody disputes that the word "Christian" comes from them. Yet we wouldn't call them Christians on Wikipedia, because they would not self-identify and indeed might take offense if they knew about it. So why call anyone before Crowley a Thelemite unless we can find them using the name for themselves? We can describe all the history in the article and mention attempts to draft Rabelais into the religion without asserting any disputed claim as fact. Dan 19:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This particular misuse of Crowley's writing has finally been explored in a polemic that traces the actual context and use of the paragraph. It is a blatant misrepresentation to continue to tangle words in such a manner. It would be wise to provide either a more appropriate context for the paragraph or remove it as not supporting the contention being made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.57.103.2 ( talk) 17:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
This person is cited throughout this article and I called his credibility as a source into question, and my {{ vc}} [unreliable source] tags were simply deleted with the comment that he was not self-published. This is not sufficient to establish him as a credible source on the subject, however. See Verifiability: Sources for more information. We should remove these citations and any claims dependent on them unless the source can be demonstrated as reliable. -- Thiebes ( talk) 16:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Aiwass seems like a better place for this dispute. Dan ( talk) 00:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Judging by the talk pages, we've reached consensus. Maybe respectable Rabelais scholars use the word "Thelema" to mean a real-world philosophy that comes from Rabelais, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence. It really seems like not one person unambiguously called themselves a Thelemite or professed Thelema by name before April 1904. And while I may have forgotten someone, I don't recall any self-described Thelemites who are not secretly User:Ekajati claiming they follow Rabelais with no influence from Uncle Al or Liber AL. (The reference that seems closest says, "Rabelais is a convenient name to show that Crowley borrowed his ideas and was just one thread in much wider fabric.") So I'll change the article to reflect this as soon as I have time.
I'll try to keep the claims of Mahendranath (and the historical material of course) unless somebody can give a better reason to remove them. (That's why it may take me time.) I also agree that we should talk about the essay Antecedents of Thelema. Except we should mention and take into account the parts that make it all sound like deliberate parody of Christians talking about "the Old Testament":
Was the mighty spirit of Alcofribas Nasier aware of the prophetic fire of his immortal book? He has fortunately left us in no doubt upon this point; for he did not content himself with having created in parable that Abbey of Thelema which his eager gaze foresaw from the black abyss of those Ages not yet thrilled by the Morning Star of the Renaissance, and dimly heralded by the Wolf's Tail of the Reformation. He proceeded to envelop himself in the mist of oracular speech, to fulminate his light through dark sayings, to clothe the naked beauty of his Time-piercing thought in the pontifical vestments of prophecy. The reader of today plunged from the limped waters of his allegory into the glooming gulfs of sibylline and subterranean song, is startled indeed when, after repeated efforts to penetrate the mystery of his versicles, he perceives the adumbration of dim forms--and recognizes them, with something of terror, for the images of the events of this very generation of mankind! (...) A great flame will spring up, he says, and put an end to this flood. What clearer reference could be desired to the Aeon of Horus?
Any non-sock-puppet objections? Dan ( talk) 20:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Done. See what you think of that quote's presentation. I found a source for one blindingly obvious point.
Dan (
talk) 07:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And so you revert the whole article? I assume you mean the forum quote pointing out the obvious, which I included as a courtesy. It is indeed reliable as an example of a human reaction, which is how I used it. You know I'll get checkuser to compare you with another Starwood Festival editor, right? Dan ( talk) 17:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Look, I tried to find someone calling themselves a Thelemite and claiming to follow Rabelais "instead" of Crowley (see the citation needed in the Contemporary section of the article). I found people citing this article, and in one case attacking it as a badly written misrepresentation of Thelema. Dan ( talk) 18:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
There are serious problems with the massive changes implemented by Dan. They make Crowleyan Thelema primary. This article as it was is very balanced and the intro given a chronological introduction to the subject. It is much more difficult to understand the history and development of Thelema by starting with Crowley. Crowley's use of the word was clearly derivative from earlier sources. No one but fundamentalist Crowleyites (or to use a more recent term Aleisterians) dispute this. While I am sure improvements could be made to the article, a massive restructuring and reordering is a step backwards. 84.147.98.77 ( talk) 20:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I see you are now misrepresenting Sabazius' comment over at RFPP. His comment had absolutely nothing to do with Wikipedia and does not mention Wikipedia. It is an example of the ongoing differences of opinion between the two type of Thelemite described in the article. What in the world would make you think otherwise? 194.187.213.89 ( talk) 23:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
As for no one calling themselves a "Rabelaisian Thelemite", that's easily disprovable. Tim Maroney, a well-known figure in Thelemic circles, called himself just that. [1]. 217.114.211.20 ( talk) 23:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Rabelaisian (upon whom Crowley based his 'Thelemic' notions). the true Thelemite is one who identifies hir will and abides it with consistency. that will tends not to (by my observation) include offense to the words of others unless there is something to be gained in the taking of the offense (as to instruct, to change the course of the medium of expression, or to express emotional feeling -- compared with merely parrotting some moral platitude or conforming to the social mores of the day, playing the victim)." from [5]. 88.80.200.144 ( talk) 00:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above presentation of supposed evidence of an ongoing dispute of ideas is seems to come from discussions on usenet and yahoogroups and a variety of personal opinions expressed online in various forums. It is not the place of Wikipedia editors to do original research and attempt to present the various opinions of all people who may have discussed or put forward an opinion. If this "dispute" has been documented in a reliable source that published by a third party, peer reviewed and fact-checked, then let this article simply make the claims as they are made in such reliable sources. Gathering the opinions of individuals and presenting those as reputable, authoritative, or even representative constitutes both original research and unreliable sourcing. -- Thiebes ( talk) 18:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, your claim that the source do not say what the article says is complete bunk. From Mahendranath:
This source says specifically that Dashwood revived the Abbey and that Crowley revived and reformed Rabelais... The other sources cited do back up this view, that's why they were cited. 88.80.200.144 ( talk) 00:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Rabelaisian Thelema is also called pre-Crowley, pre-Crowleyan or pre-Crowlian or non-Crowley or non-Crowleyan. Here is an example of the usage of non-Crowleyan Thelema from 2000: [7]. 88.68.104.56 ( talk) 00:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan, I don't understand what you mean by this "question at hand" rubbish. You use of links to earlier discussion doesn't mean anything to me either. I don't get what you are saying or trying to say. I've asked you some very direct questions about specific language in the article, but you ignore those questions. Please answer them, and if you have statements or questions to make, please make or ask them here and now in text, not with links which simply confuse me as to what you mean. Thanks. 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S. In other words, you aren't making any sense to me. 88.80.200.138 ( talk) 04:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Whoever is making repeated reverts, using multiple IPs, knock it off. If you disagree with a change, discuss it here and work toward consensus. Reverting edits which have been discussed in advance is not the way it is done. A single person does not gain dominance over Wikipedia articles by being the most intent and prolific reverter. It is not a race. Explain your point of view and cultivate consensus. Thiebes ( talk) 08:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
From Tim Maroney on USENET, 1990: [9]
From Bill Heidrick on USENET, 1995: [10]
From the latter: "Rabelaisian Thelema had entered the European literary milieu by the end of the 16th century. It is ubiquitous in many places, as untraceable in some as an molecule of water once imbibed and eliminated by Attila the Hun and now in a modern popsicle."
Clearly the term and the dialectic around it was not created by any Wikipedia editor. 212.224.71.3 ( talk) 14:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
{{ RFCreli}} Disagreement about whether to present lead section in chronological order showing development on this philosophy/religion. 17:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Dan ( talk · contribs) wishes to rewrite the lead in non-chronological order. He infers a need from this from the fact that two single-purpose accounts have questioned one of the sources. In response, other supporting sources were found which agree with the history presented in the questioned source. None of the users involved has even acknowledged or discussed the additional sources presented, much less questioned them, yet Dan still proposes a non-chronological lead which makes Aleister Crowley out as the primary originator of something demonstrably originated by Rabelais.
The historical development of Thelema presented in the current lead is fully supported by multiple sources. It's widely known that Crowley derived his version of Thelema from pre-existing historical sources. Multiple independent sources acknowledge this. This attempt to make Crowley's made-up story that he "channelled" rather than simply wrote the Book of the Law primary by people who are believers in his "religion" is clearly POV based on conflict of interest. There are the supporting quotes:
212.227.82.218 ( talk) 17:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've been poking around the talk page archives, and found that the last outside opinion of the article was very positive and that the text of the article has hardly changed at all since then [11], except for the addition of more references and quotations within those references. That opinion read:
This seriously brings into question the burning need to "improve" it. 71.112.133.30 ( talk) 00:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe that the first sentence, perhaps the first few sentences, should focus on the "what is" of Thelema. We must reflect current discourse which allows of the possibility of people being thelemites w/o ever having heard of Crowley or even Rabelais. That is, the practice the maxim "Do what thou wilt."
The first sentence should contain "Do what thou wilt", this is more essential to Thelema than who dun it. The rest of the paragraph should explain why the word Thelema is related to the rule or law.
I propose the following first paragraph:
What do others think of this proposal? 70.112.55.203 ( talk) 19:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It seems some people are working under the false premise that only Crowley gets to define Thelema. That is simply not NPOV. Other people descriptions and definitions have to be taken into account, and the article can not be written in such a way that it implies that only the views of Crowley and his followers are the correct views. 212.227.82.218 ( talk) 20:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:RS and demonstrate the reliability of the following sources:
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thiebes ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this article is heading toward good article status. However, the section on Crowley is weak, with many subsections lacking references. These should be secondary references, we can't be interpreting The Book of the Law by making a statement and simply citing Liber AL. I've seen an article out there on Ethics in Thelema, was that by Frater Ash? And Duquette's book ought to cover most or all of the practical aspects. Let's get the Crowley section cited! 78.52.90.29 ( talk) 07:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Central to the Thelemic experience
I don't believe Crowley ever referred to any practice or ritual as "central" to Thelema or "the Thelemic experience". The closest I can think of is his calling the Gnostic Mass the "central ritual of the O.T.O.", but that's an entirely different matter. I'd be very surprised indeed to find that Crowley called any practice or ritual "central" to Thelema. 85.140.207.159 ( talk) 19:34, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
controverscial.com is the personal website of this author, so his essay on Francis Dashwood is self-published and not a reliable source. Do you have some reason to believe he is a well-known writer on this and/or similar topics and has been published elsewhere? 58.176.17.98 ( talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Dan, Here's a list of a series of edits made separately so that each one could be explained. It is NOT a series of reverts because a series of edits is taken as a single edit for the purposes of 3RR. So, since Wikipedia is supposed to be collaborative, why don't you single out the edits that you disagree with, give a REASON WHY you disagree with it, and attempt to work out a compromise. I am and have all along been willing to do so, but you simply don't seem to be interested in discussing the actual content, but simply your own straw men. I agreed with some of your points and rewrote many parts of the article to address your objections, but you won't even discuss point-by-point with me? What's up with that? 88.191.34.70 ( talk) 14:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for actual discussion of content, as I've been requesting now for over a week. I'm not sure what you mean about "Ekajati's version". I'm not reverting to it. In case you hadn't noticed, I've moved the article quite a ways from what you call "Ekajati's version" and most of my reverts are to my own edits, content that wasn't here when we started this. As for your "growing list of editors", you seem to mean three, maybe four? Editors who don't seem very active and strangely enough are never here at the same time? Those editors, Dan? Now you. you seem to be a real editor, with over 1000 edits and they aren't all to Thelemic articles. But Thiebes has a total of 54 edits, Stealthepiscopalian has 21 edits, and the mysterious Antaios632 has a grand total of 10 edits. Is it any wonder no established Wikipedia editors have bothered with your pathetic RfC? This sort of situation is what WP:THIRD is for... 24.205.159.15 ( talk) 05:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Note: your version is not under discussion, I don't consider it an option. It lacks the breadth of vision and NPOV required of a good article candidate. 88.191.50.87 ( talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
We'll start with point 10, since you say it is the most important.
Dan said: "minor point: replaced accurate claim with false one. Also for some reason removed a well-known fact with many possible sources available through an Internet near you."
Response: I've replaced "three" with "several" which I believe resolves the inaccuracy. I am not responsible for searching out sources for uncited information which you added. You are. Will in China ( talk) 18:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe this has been resolved by using "may have" rather than "many believe". The issue here is not what people believe or how many believe it, it's that the simple common sense answer to where Crowley got the word Thelema and the phrase "Do what thou wilt" is Rabelais. We can't trust what Crowley said about preternatural entities. Unlikely claims require strong sources. Since there are no reliable thrid-party eyewitness accounts to the event, we have to defer to common sense. Will in China ( talk) 18:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed all mention of Crowley in this section, as well as the sections on Rabelais and Dashwood. What Crowley says about these two points belongs in the Crowley section if it is important. I leave it to you to determine how best to integrate it with the existing references to Antecedents already in that section. These sections are under the heading Historical background, not Opinions expressed by Crowley on the historical background. How Crowley integrated the past usages of what became his Law of Thelema is explicitly part of Aleister Crowley's work. I am not prejudiced against bringing these points up in that section. Will in China ( talk) 18:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
You say this is a critical point of Crowley's system. Then why is it reduced to a footnote? In general, footnotes are expected to be sources, not explanations. Please find a way to integrate what you think is important about this into the article text. Footnote it with the source, not further explanation. I just don't see what's so important about this myself or even see precisely what the actual point of your footnote is. So you can't possibly expect me to integrate the point myself, I don't get it. Neither will other readers. Have I made my reason clear? Can you find another way to integrate your important and critical point? I'm not deleting this to be stubborn. I'm deleting it because it is bad writing to do it this way... 88.191.50.87 ( talk) 13:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Um, clearly you missed the point, because the new quote does not mention the Law of Thelema. Dan ( talk) 05:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought I put it in a footnote with a clear explanation in the text (clear enough because it comes after Skepticism, though I guess we should link astral plane or Astral_plane#The_astral_plane_and_astral_experience.) I don't understand your position here. Dan ( talk) 18:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
The section tries to explain how Magick relates to Thelema, the quote gives an explicit example of this, I tried to explain it clearly, what's the problem? Dan ( talk) 18:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Dan says: "weren't you just telling us somewhere that Wikipedia does not interpret scripture? And yet here you are doing it, giving a disputed interpretation as fact. (Are you noticing a theme here?) Would you prefer we added, "in the view of one guy"?"
Response: there's a subtlety here that you are missing. You are correct that as Wikipedia editors we can not personally attempt to interpret scripture. But we can certainly report what other people have written about it. And no, it would not be approprate to add "in the view of one guy". The correct way to proceed would be to cite another source which differs on the topic. Nobody I think would disagree that Crowley spoke a about non-interference. But does anybody say that some specific verse in Liber AL dictates non-interference. That's the question here. If you come up with another POV, then we can determine how to word the some people think this, some people think that. But without the example, how would you suggest we proceed. We can't misreport what the source says simply because you dispute his interpretation. Will in China ( talk) 18:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I see what you mean about the word both. I've rephrased again without it. Nowhere does the section say that the practices listed were or are required of everyone or that they were or are taught to everyone. It is simply a list of the types of magick and other ritual put forth by Crowley as parts of his system, which you call Thelema. I personally distinguish between Thelema and magick, with the latter unnecessary to the former, but as that is clearly not the majority view I feel no need to cause even more of a dispute over that particular detail. Will in China ( talk) 18:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Here I must disagree. This is a significant statement by Crowley, and that is what this section is about - Crowley's definitions of Thelema, not Contemporary Thelema. If you want to balance it under the heading of Contemporary Thelema by indicating that this one of Crowley's opinions about True Will has been discarded by specific groups of Modern Thelemites (with citations of course), then that would be the proper way of handling it. I'm not aware of any Thelemites objecting to his opinion in writing during Crowley's lifetime, are you? -Will in China 05:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In case you aren't aware, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to present Thelema in the most palatable light to attract followers, which seems to be part of your agenda. It is the purpose of Wikipedia to be historically accurate and complete. This is not a fact about Crowley's definitions and opinions to be swept under the rug. It is a significant fact potentially affecting around half of his potential followers during his life... -Will in China 05:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.244.27.53 ( talk)
I removed the long quote from Antecedents simply because it is completely incomprehensible. And because you are attempting to interpret it, which is not allowed under WP:OR. It's way too long and breaks up the flow of the article. If you want to find a way to put it in a footnote, without attempting to interpret it or even implying that it is intended as "humour", go ahead. We both know that Crowley could also write like this with complete seriousness. But I think your point is actually your forbidden interpretation of the text and the quote is simply an excuse to add your point. If some published commentator has made your same point about this particular quote, by all means add it, but in some way that doesn't completely distract from the presentation of the article. If you prefer, we could compromise by removing the bit about Crowley calling Rabelais "Our Master". However, I think he said that in all seriousness, regardless of whether any other part of the article is humor. You are trying to say that the use of "Our Master" is humor. Maybe we should also note that Crowley made Rabelais a Saint of his Gnostic Church for further balance. 80.141.112.117 ( talk) 14:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Thelema here is not a reference to a Rabelasian philosophy. It's a reference to the Abbey, country and utopia. Thelema is the English translation of Thélème. Two points here, we should use the English translation in the heading on English Wikipedia, and because there are actually three referents making it more specific doesn't really work for me. Would your prefer "Thelema of Rabalais" or "Rabelais' Thélème". Somehow I think you will continue to not get the point. And I'm not reverting to Ekajati's version, which was "Rabalaisian Thelema". I changed it because you convinced me there was no such thing. And now you criticize my correction. There's no pleasing you apparently. 68.144.168.46 ( talk) 14:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what the problem is. Do you dispute that Crowley developed a system around the ideal of "Do what thou wilt"? Do you really think using "championed" rather than "promoted" is really necessary? Try to be more clear about exactly what you think the problem is with my compromise attempt. Will in China ( talk) 19:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
A Third opinion has been requested, but it appears from the signed posts that five or more editors are participating. How many are actually involved in this dispute? — Athaenara ✉ 23:15, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is a self-identification as a Thelemite in 1841, before Crowley was born... Another interesting document using the term Thelemite from 1863 is this editorial, The Modern Thelemite. -Will in China 01:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(Lost track here.) It took me a while to figure out what Will meant about the Liber II quote. Since the article goes on to speak of Buddhist and tantric traditions, and they do seem important here, why not just link nirvana so this reader you speak of can learn what the author meant? Dan ( talk) 02:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I need to challenge and query some of the points asserted in the Diversity of Thelemic Thought Section:
1: Who decided that LaSara Firefox was a notable Thelemite exactly? And why? She hasnt published any material that could be seen has Thelemic and the church of the Allworlds is not a Thelemic organisation. Unless there can be a reliable citation that doesnt involve a crap pagan "encyclopedia" i put forward that the LaSara Firefox reference be removed.
2: Amado Crowley. Although this person has made claims that have failed to stand up to scrutiny, including Amado Crowley in the Diversity of Thought section should be queried/challenged has well. Amados "material" is threadbare and he hasnt produced any written work that would suggest "Thelemic Diversity". So i put forward that this is removed has well unless references other than the "Dave Evans fan-club" are forth coming.
3: "Thelemites who practice other religions". Some of the assertions in this bit has well are open to challenge. How could a Thelemite be a Satanist when Satanism is subject to inverting christian parameters exactly? And vice versa? This doesnt stand up to any deep examination. I would argue that if your a Thelemite there is no need for any religion since you are seeking True Will. Why need the distraction of a religion when Thelema covers all the bases? Again i put forward that the 4th paragraph in the Diversity of Thelemic thought section is removed since it just contradicts itself.-- Redblossom ( talk) 14:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
If that is the case Will in china then the good article criteria is not sufficient or its being abused to the point of laziness. Again i raise the point over the LaSara Firefox assertion. This person hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organisation that she is associated with is not Thelemic in nature. And the reference used hasnt published which page or the context of saying she is "Thelemic". That single reference is very dubious unless it can be verified through a secondary source. So i still put forwrd the motion that the firefox citation is removed until there is clarity on it. The second point over "Amado Crowley" still stands. He is not a prominent Thelemite in the eyes of Thelemites due to his fabrications over his fake "history" of Crowley. If he is going to be used in the article it should be has him making claims about himself and Crowley that cant be verified. But he shouldnt be listed has a "prominent Thelemite" and he shouldnt be used in the diversity of Thelemic thought since the material he uses is very contradictory and is at times nonsensical. If you are a Thelemite who knows his history Will in china, you should know this already. So i dont understand why your defending his inclusion in the diversity of Thelemic thought. With regard to Dave Evans yes he does have a PHD but his material is "clouded" by his personal tastes and he has been very negative to Crowley and certain Thelemites in his writing raising issue over neutrality over his work. Again if you are a Thelemite you should know this already Will in china. (Alas its the same with all historians with an axe to grind). Also Evans is not in a postion to decide whether or not "Amado Crowleys" work is "Thelemic" in any way since Evans is an academic and not a practicing Thelemite, and "Amado" himself hasnt given a very good account of himself when challenged over this his work. So using Evans work to justify "Amado" has a form of Thelemic diversity doesnt stand up to query or scrutiny. Again he may be "qualified" in academia but but not in Thelemic matters.
So to summmarise i put forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members that the LaSara Firefox reference is removed until a better reference is used or the context of the reference is elaborated further ( if it actually exists in the context it is being used here). That the mentions of "Amado Crowley" be moved elsewhere in the Thelema article under claims of legitimacy but not under Thelemic diversity. And that the "Thelemites who practice other religions" be removed since thats just contradiction. If a person has a fair grasp behind Thelema then the idea that they need another "religion" is just ludicrous and not well thought out. I look forward to the Wikiproject Thelema members cleaning this up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 18:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not asserting what Thelema "should" be. I am challenging the inclusion of some points that are dubious at best. LaSara Firefox hasnt published any Thelemic material. The organsiation she is with is not Thelemic in nature. So why her inclusion has a prominent Thelemite? It just comes across has an advertisement for her and her organsiation. (the same applies to the Sam Webster inclusion has a prominent Thelemite) The inclusion comes across has nonsensical.
Secondly the Amado Crowley assertion still stands. It's dubious at best that his career should be seen has an expression has Thelemic diversity when he has made negative claims against the Liber AL, and other prominent Thelemites. So again this needs to be decided upon collectively to be moved under a sub section of maybe legitimacy claims but not an example of Thelemic diversity.
Thirdly, again i dont see the point or the need for a section expressing a dubious assertion that some self proclaimed "Thelemites" follow other religions. This is a contradiction in the basic ideas expresed in Liber AL that casts aside mainstream relgion (pecking out the eyes of... and tearing away the flesh of... anyone?!) to follow a personal path beyond the constraints of any organisation that restricts personal will. So again i put forward the motion that that paragraph be removed, and replaced with something else entirely different showing the obvious differences between the ideas & freedom behind Thelema and the constraints apparent in religions. This would help to clarify the confusion and contradiction presented has some sort of "fact" in the article. Can we have a decision and some consensus on this WikiProject Thelema members?-- Redblossom ( talk) 13:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
If we go by the criteria that you are suggesting Will in China then any person who says that they are a Thelemite (but are not) and its in print somewhere can by default be listed here on Wikipedia has a Thelemite. Do you see how daft that is? Secondly how is the LaSara Firefox assertion "vaild cited material"? And how would moving the Amado Crowley from the Thlemic diversity section to elsewhere affect neutrality of the article? Just has an observation there needs to be some criteria on who is a Thelemite under Wikipedia criteria. By my standards what consitiutes a "Thelemite" here would be laughed at in the real world (again the LaSara Firefox assertion being a point in case). I would like someone else from the Wikiproject Thelema group to look at my points to offer an alternative to Will in China's.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify what your suggesting there Will in china, is that Wikipedia is not an accurate source of information (Thelema), but is a collector of material (accurate/inaccurate) that has been printed/quoted about Thelema and is used to give a picture/idea of Thelema that is NOT accurate in the academic/historical/practical sense of the word. In that context, if any browser looks at the Thelema page they will get a general idea of Thelema but not an accurate one due to the limitations of Wikipedia's criteria and use of third party material that wouldnt stand up to scrutiny in a academic or historical environment. So Wikipedia doesnt "accurately report" on Thelema but uses/abuses printed material to present a "representation" of Thelema that may or may not be true/accurate, due to Wikipedias limitations and criteria. So even though the Thelema article might be GA standard on Wikipedia it is not an accurate or even decent portrayal of Thelema in the real world. This is the nature of the internet in that anyone can be an "expert" and pass of material that would be laughed at in the real world, but is seen has "fact" on Wikipedia. If it was up to me a lot of the article would be gutted and started from scratch, but alas it seems there are vested interests here who are seeking to make a name/career for themselves using Wikipedia. C'est La Vie!!-- Redblossom ( talk) 06:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Will in China, being a Thelemite is a bit more than just "Do what thou wilt" and its simplistic to suggest so. And a fair bit of the Thelema article is simplistic has well.Various religions up to a point put the god/goddess's will first ahead of the follower. This is in contradiction to the ideas set out in LIber AL. So again i say that the article is portraying contradiction and falsehood has some sort of fact on Thelema. Like i said Wikipedia has its limitations and the article on Thelema displays that weakness. Can we have someone who actually knows what they are talking about concerning Thelema address the issues of some of the points i have made?-- Redblossom ( talk) 20:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to highlight another misinformed contradiction. When a Thelemite engages in their practice the main body of work is to find their "true will" We can all agree on that. So from that point of view, how does appeasement and surrendering of their will to a god or goddess of a religion fit the Thelemic requirement of finding true will? It doesnt. So the idea of people saying they are "Thelemite" but they make appeasements and surrender to deities doesnt meet the Thelemic model of finding and maintaining true will. It just a confusing contradiction that doesnt make any sense by Thelemic criteria. Whereas religion promotes the will of the said deity/god Thelema promotes the development of true will without corruption or interference. So can someone explain to me the contradiction of the Wikipedia article allowing this confusion of so called "Thelemites" saying that they engage in the practice of religions? To me its just confused people wanting to have their cake and eat it, without any thought or genuine understanding. Doesnt make any sense.-- Redblossom ( talk) 20:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually i am not making the mistake of putting Hinduism, Buddhism, and other religions with Christianity. Most religions make appeasements and observations to their specific deity (Green Tara/Buddhism, Shiva in Hinduism, ext) Most religions make appeasement and appreciations to their specific deities. Thelemas purpose of finding individual true will contradicts the view of deity based religions. So again it is a contradcition. How can true will be found if the follower of religion accepts that their existence is merely the will of said god/deity? Again the contradiction.-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tara_%28Buddhism%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Buddhism
The wiki articles above dont back you up on that point. Liber Astarte has got nothing to do with making appeasements to deity /gods.Liber Astarte is a training technique to move beyond human consciousness & to identify with the starting point of creation. If you have studied it then you would realise that, so how that correlates with the argument made about the contradictions stated by the poster hasnt been argued.Also your use of the Liber AL quote is also being taken out of context of its original useage (which is a common problem of Liber AL) to fit your contradictory argument, so again your point is flawed and weak. Again this is the weakness of anyone posting on Wikipedia, in that poor argument and a lack of understanding can be passed off has some sort of "fact". And anyone can be an expert. I back up the original posters point that the article does need a clean up, starting with the religion points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.25.50 ( talk) 18:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I am a former member of the Thelema WikiProject, and you have requested that someone else comment on your three points:
I will ask you the same thing that i asked in my posts. If a person says that they are a Thelemite but they follow a religion that makes appeasements to deities of said religion , how is that Thelemic? How is the person fulfilling the criteria of being in a state of true will when they are putting the will of the said deity ahead of their own individual will? I assert that they are not. Therefore they are not being Thelemic. Again this is contradiction that is presenting a misleading representation of Thelema on the part of the article i am focusing on. The subsection in question needs cleaned up edited to deal with this contradiction. Like i said earlier Wikipedia does have its limitations and the diversity sub section shows this off cruelly. To me this argument of using citations & references for people who merely call themselves Thelemic is making the Thelema article look dubious at best. If we go by the criteria for Wikipedia if someone can get a citation stating that George W Bush said he is a "Thelemite" then under Wikipedia criteria lo and behold he is a Thelemite!! See how ludicrous that is? If this is supposed to be a GA article under Wikipedia criteria then the criteria is laughable and sub standard.-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I put forward the motion that the Thelema page has its Good Article status removed. Under Wiki criteria an article needs to be factually accurate. The Thelema page is not factually accurate. And will not be due to a lot of issues.
1: Inclusion of citations presenting Thelema has a religion. This is not a fact. Thelema being presented has a religion is not a fact. Its not a provable fact. So it doesnt meet Good Article criteria. Also the issue over that the Thelemic community cant agree unanimously/collectively on what Thelema "is" and "is not". So the article would needs to reflect that more clearly. At this time the article doesnt do that.
2: Some sub sections on the page are just poorly written and needs serious clean up. I have put forward this proposal, but it has been met by resistance from some posters who are quite defensive about the page. So again because of this i put forward that the page has its GA status removed until there is some mutual consensus on a workable clean up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 13:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Some points that need attention:
The inclusion of Israel Regardie in the Thelemic literature section. Regardie never wrote in books on Thelemic practice. Most of it was Golden Dawn and Kabbalah material. Secondly he never stated that he was Thelemic (which is important). So the inclusion of Regardie has an example of Thelemic literature is not factual or correct.
The inclusion of the Thelema in comparitive religion sub section is contradictory due to the point that the Thelemic community cant agree on what Thelema is or isnt. So the attempt of including Thelema has comparitive religion is a contradicition therefore not giving the reader a clear accurate picture. This sub section needs removed or cleaned up to address the contradictions.
The inclusion of Liber Samekh has a Thelemic Ritual. Liber Samekh is not Thelemic practice. It deals with union with an exterior entity that is the HGA. Although used by some Thelemites in magickal practice its not a ritual that helps personal will but more aligns the practioner with the exterior will of the HGA to alow the practioner to survive a magickal state of consciousness. The Hymenaeus Beta reference (54) is personal opinion that contradicts the work of other occultists like Kenneth Grant who state that the HGA exists in its own right and is not a personal expression of personal true will. So ref 54 is not reliable or useful to helping the casual reader understand the concepts. I propose that ref 54 is removed and that Liber Samekh is removed from the practices and observances sub section.
The cosmology section needs expanded and indepth focus on the symbolism of the Egyptian dieites in the context of Liber AL and Crowleys understanding (and misunderstanding) of these concepts. Theres much more but i leave it at that to allow an intelligent response and allow a workable clean up.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Just to go by Wikipedia's own critera on Good article status. The two main points are 1: Well written. In this context it allows the reader to get a fair graps of a subject with plain english and no contradctions. 2: Factually accuarate. where an assertion can be factually accurate. The article doesnt meet these two main criteria.
To use the GA criteria for the Israel Regardie inclusion in Thelemic literature. This is not accurate. Regardie wasnt a Thelemite. Yes he did write on Crowley's history, but does this count has being Thelemic literature? Maybe history yes. Not Thelemic . Also since most of Regardie's work concerns Golden Dawn magick and the use of the Qabbalah this will confuse the casual reader. So again it doesnt help GA status.
The Hymenaeus Beta issue is different. He is the head of the Caliphate OTO solely. He doesnt speak for all Thelemites. Only the limited membership of the Caliphate. Which has its own agenda concerning Thelema. But thats not the point. The Beta reference has been taken out of context to give a misleading impression on Liber Samekh. In that context this is enough to either having it removed or finding a better reference (but there wont be one since it doesnt exist) The crux is whether Liber Samekh is a "Thelemic practice" or not. And under its own purpose it is not. So by its own nature and purpose its not a Thelemic practice or observation. So it should be removed. Or put in another section dealing with the evolution of Thelemic rituals bastardised from the Golden Dawn material.
The cosmology section doesnt give a clear picture on the ideas espoused by Liber AL under the GA criteria. So under that criteria it either needs to be worded/edited better or more material needs to be added to it so that it has more clarity. This would at least help under GA criteria.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
I dont know why my request for reassessment of the GA status/criteria was seen has "inappropriate" by
Geometry guy. And there hasnt been any proper explanation for it to be seen has such. Like i said the whole article does need a clean up but GA satus still remains. Baffling. And no one as made an effort with putting aspects of Agape into the article. Sad.--
Redblossom (
talk) 16:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Also just to raise one of the points Will in china mentioned, concerning Liber Samekh. Will in china said there was "general agreement on Liber Samekh in Thelema. What agreement? Exactly? All we have is Crowleys work onit. Kenneth Grants writing on it, and we Duquettes cut & paste style of writing that just copies Croweys work with out any depth. I will quote some mistakes made by DuQuette who clearly has misundertood the purpose of the ritual (to show the citations worth is flimsy at best) From p133 of the magick of Thelema "by" Duquette:I quote " The HGA is the divine object of devotion of the Bhakti Yogi: Krishan to the Hindu : Christ to the Christian." Unquote. This is a nonsense going by Crowleys own crtieria. THe HGA is a link between the divine and the seeker. THe HGA is not a god/deity. DuQuette's argument that the HGA is equal to Krishna or Christ is ludicrous. Look up the reference of you dont believe me (p133) 1993 edition. So if we go by DuQuettes silly argument then Liber Samekh is all about surendering of ones will. so therfore its not a Thelemic ritual under criteria of what true will is in its uncorrupted form. If Liber Samekh is going to be presented has a "Thelemic ritual" then a better citation-reference (in context to the ritual and its use) will need to be found. Also even DuQuette's "variation" on Liber Samekh is less that perfect and will cause confusion in beginners wanting to geta grasp of the ritual. and it doesnt help that Duquette doesnt explain himself. So again i put forward that unless that a cast iron reference can be used that is bullet proof then Liber Samekh is not a Thelemic ritual.-- Redblossom ( talk) 16:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph of the article it says that "Crowley founded a relgion called Thelema". This is a POV being presented as some sort of bullet proof fact. There is no collective agreement in the Thelemic community on whether Thelema is a religion. So why is this statement allowed to stand? Could a better wording not be found? Like spiritual movement? Or Philosophy?-- Redblossom ( talk) 11:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
The number 3 citation used by WillinChina to suggest Thelema is a "religion" is a nonsense. John Michael Greer's writing is merely a primer and Greer is not qualified to say what Thelema is or isnt. So the citation is nonsense. Also this goes back to my point of confusing the casual reader. In one sentence the article is saying Thelema is a philosophy. Then in another its saying its a religion. Confusing for the average reader. And also not true. So again we are seeing the low standards of criteria for a GA status.--
Redblossom (
talk) 16:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Also just has a add-on where does the statement from Crowley : "There is no God but man" fit into this so called "religion"?-- Redblossom ( talk) 16:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok where exactly can i put my reference number? On the page it says "Crowley founded a religion called Thelema" but on the edit page this does not appear /exist. Some clarity on this would be much appreciated.-- Redblossom ( talk) 17:55, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I've undid the current revisions to what I think is the better version. We can discuss it here instead of changing it everyday with no conversation. The way I see it, a link repair was done to bypass a redirect. Tarot needs no more elaboration in this article, and its obvious what it means. — Maggot Syn 00:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
How is the word pronounced in English? "THE-le-ma"? "the-LEE-ma"? Someone please add pronunciation guide. SpectrumDT ( talk) 17:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that the whole damn thing be deleted. The whole article is a farce designed by committee. No wonder Thelema has so many terminology problems. People here are neither qualified (obviously) nor inclined to discuss the properties of a religion (of which Thelema meets every academic qualification) or the particular tenets of Thelema itself. At least I have finally understand why academic institutions do not allow Wikipedia to be quoted as any kind of authoritative source. Articles designed by committees of unqualified editors who aren't even competent in the subject matter in the first place is for the birds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.62.28 ( talk) 23:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)