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Does anyone have a direct link to Heffer's article about this film? I can't find it on the Telegraph site, and the reference given points to a completely different article. 217.155.20.163 19:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Links were removed for the following reasons:
This section could do with some other external links to balance out the socialist analysis that is already there in the one article linked to the Socialist Worker. Logica 02:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
When the men are walking in the fog w/ the stolen motorcycle right before the ambush on the tans, what song are they singing? ty
The song is indeed Óró 'Sé do bheatha 'bhaile. The lyrics of the version from the movie were written by Patrick Pearse of 1916 fame. The air of the song, however, predates Pearse's version and is taken from a Jacobite song from the eighteenth century about the return Searlas Óg/Bonny Prince Charles the son of James II. While traditional Irish music does not enjoy the popularity it once did, to say that Irish people wish to "forget" or "relegate" these songs to history is entirely incorrect. As alluded to many artists have covered this song over the years, one of the most recent being Sinead O'Connor on her 2002 album Sean Nos Nua. That the song is not "politically correct" is spurious with the song being sung on Irish National Television during the recent "Charity You're a Star"(an Irish version of the X-Factor/American Idol talent show). Cliste 23:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The references to the Monbiot article commenting on Tim Luckhurst make insinuations that he did not see the film because the Guardian do not have a record of him attending a screening and that he did not wish to comment. This evidence by itself is clearly not enough to support the insinuation, and it is very damaging to Luckhurst. Thus, the information is clearly not notable because it does not support anything, but instead makes implicit insinuations that Wikipedia should not deal in. If there are no objections, I am removing it. Logoistic 16:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits to the synopsis seem very politically tilted toward Teddy's favor and toward an indictment of Damien, despite the fact that Damien is a more prominent character, that the film is very sympathetic toward Damien even as the situation is complex, and that more of the characters in the film stand with Damien than Teddy. Damien's death seems to be more Teddy's tragedy than the man killed! In my opinion we must strive for a more NPOV tone, both politically and from the perspective of interpreting a work of fiction. -- Melty girl 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, I think the plot section is simply too long. There is no need for a blow-by-blow description of the film. Furthermore, this section is now laden with POV language, and here is an example: "ambushes and slaughters an armed convoy" (slaughters is an unnecessary characterization of the events). We need to get this sorted out. The plot synopsis was fine some time back, and there is no reason it cannot and should not be restored to its former state. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 02:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
(deindent) Sorry to say this, Kingstowngalway, but I do not think you grasp the difference between reporting what was depicted in the movie and your own interpretation of it. True, as Twins points out, it's not like that's a simple issue in the first place, especially when a movie is emotionally and politically loaded. Still, you've failed to respond our specific comments as to why the description of Teddy as "a broken man" is a personal interpretation/POV of what's actually seen onscreen. We could accurately say that on the day of Damien's execution, Teddy is upset, grieving, tearful, downcast, etc., but that's all we can say for sure without going into our personal interpretations of what he may have been feeling or how the ordering his own brother's execution may or may not change him. Can you actually demonstrate how the movie SHOWED that Teddy is a broken man? Broken men are radically changed, unable to go on as before because of grief, etc. But does Teddy tear off his uniform? Renounce his path and position? Retreat to his room for a month? Become an alcoholic? Or does he go on to execute another anti-Treaty person the next day? Does he continue to serve in the military, run for office and rise in power despite his grief? We simply don't know, because the movie ends right after the execution. When you write that he's a "broken man" you're telling Wiki readers that Teddy can no longer function because of his grief. This is not depicted onscreen, period. While you continue to be unable to acknowledge this POV in your phraseology, I will continue to be hesitant to spend my time editing this plot summary. And the "broken man" problem is just one example of the problematic content you've added. I fear that you cannot distinguish between what's onscreen and your own personal assumptions.
BTW, I do think it's significant that neither Kingstowngalway nor Twins saw what was happening as an edit war. Perhaps protection was unnecessary. But it's good that everyone is talking. I must say that I feel rather pessimistic though. -- Melty girl ( talk) 06:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
A couple of suggestions for revising the Plot section. Exclude quotes in their entirety because this is an overview of the film -- quotes are way too specific for this. Define key events but don't get in so much detail. The Plot section is meant to complement the rest of the film article so the background and the reception can be understood. It's really a matter of boiling it down to the elements -- the ones that everyone can agree happens on the screen. If there is a particular issue that is questionable, try to make the issue ambiguous. For instance, one issue that I've seen often is the type of vehicle or weapon used in a film even though it's never stated, and there is edit warring over that. A better solution is to just say "car" or "gun". I don't know if the same thinking could apply here, but it's just a matter of providing plot points for a brief understanding of the film to serve as context for the article, not to attempt replicating whatever underlying themes that may be perceived. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 19:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The plot summary is clearly biased against Damien and in favor of Teddy. Words like "slaughter" are loaded; while the definition may be appropriate, one has to consider the connotation of words as well. The summary also focuses on Teddy more than Damien, which is inconsistent with the screen time allotted to their respective characters. The very POV nature of the plot summary detracts from the seriousness of the article and should be fixed. This is my first post on Wikipedia, so I'd be afraid I'd mess up the article if I edited it. Missandei ( talk) 03:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, As the synopsis now stands, I am willing to accept it with one exception. There should be at least some mention of the look on Teddy's face during the execution. As Teddy sees it, he is being forced to choose between preserving what limited independence his country has gained and the life of his little brother. This is a question that makes Teddy feel sick in the pit of his stomache and Padraic Delaney shows it on his face from the moment he visits Damien in the prison cell.
Damien, however, was motivated to fight in the Irish War of Independence by his dream of a Socialist Republic. It was in pursuit of this dream that he shot Chris Reilly. For Damien to accept anything less than its immediate fulfillment would make him feel that all the killing he did in the War of Independence had been for nothing. Rather than even consider this as a possibility, he prefers death, even with the full knowledge of the devastating pain it will cause Sinèad.
As for me, I am inclined to view both Teddy and Damien as off the mark. As a Traditionalist Catholic and a Paleoconservative, I view laissez faire capitalism and socialism nothing more than two sides of a counterfeit coin. Nevetheless, Damien's repudiation of the Catholic religion is something with which I can never identify.
As for my "error" about Damien and Sinèad's marriage, it was caused by a photograph from Dan Breen's "My Fight for Irish Freedom." Dan Breen's wife wore a wedding dress uncannily similar to what Sinèad wears at the village celebration. Best Wishes, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 13:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, Some things in my recent edits always seemed to me to be progressively less POV, yet you continue to remove them. For example, Damien is very "contemptuous" of Teddy during their debate outside the church. He regards Teddy as a traitor who has compromised with the enemy. Also, the Kilmichael Ambush is definitely the basis for the attack on the Auxiliary Division depicted in the film. The article on Kilmichael makes that very clear. In addition, after his arrest, Damien is facing a traitor's death no matter what decision he makes. Teddy does not realize that the Anti-Treaty IRA is much bigger than their little village. If Damien had turned on them, Sinead would have renounced him and the IRA would have hunted him to the ends of the earth. Therefore, Damien held firm to what I consider his misguided principles and dies unbeaten. As for the links to other articles, they were meant only to assist anyone looking to delve into some of the real history which inspired the film and the issues discussed therein. Best Wishes to You and Your Coming Child, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 13:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, As I promised to defend my recent edits on the talk page, that is what I am doing now. I too am tired of this constant battle, but I really don't see how this dispute can be resolved unless we both make concessions. As for me, I have attempted to read the lists of rules that you have linked to several times. However, they proved unable to hold my attention (I am autistic). I have realized that Damien is the protagonist while reading a book about story structure by Robert McKee. I have tried to alter my former focus on Teddy as a result, while also giving his viewpoint a fair hearing so that the viewer can decide for themselves whether Teddy or Damien is correct about the Treaty. As for "Dominion status within the British Empire" vs. "Full Independence," it was merely meant to describe the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and what Damien objects to about it. Would a statement that the Treaty makes Ireland into an "British Dominion instead of an fully independent Republic" be sufficiently neutral? I described Damien as "disgusted" over having to kill Chris Reilly, because "rattled" seems like too much of an understatement considering his obvious horror at having to kill a close friend. As for Teddy, even those editors who opposed my currently regretted description of him as "a broken man" conceeded that he is "very sad" on the day of Damien's execution. I still insist that some mention be made of this. If these matters would make the plot section too long, I am sure that other paragraphs could be shortened. As for the other sections I have worked on, I can locate citations for them if need be. At present, however, I am suffering through a very devastating heatbreak. However, I am certain that this article still could use improvement. Best Wishes, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 01:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Kingstowngalway, it is rare that someone works on a plot synopsis, for nine months with no sign of stopping. Is there any way to get you to see that obsessively changing the wording in this section, usually by lengthening it (it's already too long) and making other violations of MOS:FILM is a pointless exercise? Most of your wording changes do not improve anything -- obsessively swapping in synonyms of your own words that you've already changed countless times only makes lateral moves. At a certain point, I started undoing your changes, because you're spinning your wheels, gradually worsening the prose, and slowly making the section longer and longer (the edit history is there for anyone to see). The only thing that you've managed to stop doing as much is adding as much biased material.
Meanwhile, all other editors are rebuffed from trying to improve this article -- who would want to try to contribute when they can see that you seem likely to go on for years changing the wording, even if someone was to come along and give it the rewrite and word cut it should have? Is there any way that you're going to let go of this plot section? After nine months, you should have been able to retell this rather short story as effectively as is possible for one person to do. This is a finite topic, not something to be researched and updated constantly like a bio of a living person or an academic subject. Revisiting this plot over and over seems rather bizarre. Where is the endpoint for you? And why don't you respect community policies or the other editors above who have tried to help get you on a better path? -- Melty girl 19:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I managed to cull unnecessary details from and refocus the plot section, as well as get the length back down below 700 words, as per the MOS:FILM guideline. Please, please, please don't bog it down again.
It's been a year of this nonsense, Kingstowngalway, and a lot of discussion with multiple editors hasn't sunk in. This isn't supposed to be a blow-by-blow and it's not supposed to be long. If you can restrain yourself, please do (don't know if you're able to). -- Melty girl 05:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
A section on historical accuracy is undoubtedly valuable; the quotations provided are described as being what "critics have noted" and it is clearly verifiable that critics have indeed made those observations. If any critics are on record as having praised the film on grounds of historical accuracy then that too can be noted. Thoskit ( talk) 03:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
(Sigh...) The film's critics who are quoted are critics who have published their opinions - their reviews are as notable as any film critics' can be. As for verifiability, the claim made by the section intro is that critics expressed these views, & you can't get a much more verifiable than providing a direct link to said reviews. Thoskit ( talk) 04:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
i.e. that all arguments or beliefs do have, in fact, contrary and opposing points of view. Sic truth.
I added the historical accuracy section because, after watching, the movie I was piqued by some of its emotive elements such as the indiscriminate killings and the sectarianism.
This lead me to read several wikipedia articles on the Anglo Irish War and the Irish Civil War and also several reviews of the film which questioned the films historical contexts.
But almost as soon as I had created a section entitled Historical accuracy an editor (called RepublicanJacobite, hmmm no strong and NPOV issues there, me thinks!!) deleted it under the usual auspices that the references don't suffice.
The 'reference line' is always peddled when an editor has issue with some one else's point of view! As most articles on wikipedia are under referenced (but most of them don't hold contentious POVs - unless you want to argue about the manufacturing processes involved in making Butt Plugs or the educational merits of Pokemon et al and etc')
Ironically if you care to look at the website from which the information came:
Yep opendemocracy.net the foremost site on the web for open-minded and fair opinion, now decried as a poor place for unsourced references. I'll remember not to believe a word again on that 'duplicitous' site!!
The simple problem here, is you have two editors who have a very jaundiced opinion on Ireland. They are both American who have been brought up in staunchly republican families, whose ancestors, rather than stay in Ireland, left and emigrated to 'the land of opportunity'. (Remember the grass is always greener on the other side).
This article, as it stands, is idolising *their* understanding of the war for Irish Independance, in fact, all I tried to do was help the 'lazy reader' who can't be bothered to read half a dozen seperate articles about the period by creating context by noting and acknowledging that elements of the plot in the film did occur but there are historical differences. People should understand why The Wind That Shakes the Barley is a WORK OF FICTION!
But according to the editor named MeltyGirl, a section entitled Historical accuracy has no place in this article as it's all about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley; it's not a history lesson. So is that a new Wikipedia policy? All films covering historical events can't be analysed. Well, we should all get over to Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers articles, and make some changes Pronto!! Or are we just cherry picking here!?
Or is MeltyGirl simply trying to say don't put anything in this article that gets in the way of *her* unchallenged view of history which this movie portrays perfectly?
Which really comes down is whether the cruelty of the British in the Irish War of Independence was commonplace or isolated and sporadic, hence this quote from opendemocracy.net:
What is far more contentious is whether any of [the brutality] – except the swearing – was commonplace, routine, or typical of British behaviour as the film implies, or how far it was sanctioned by political or military leaders. Many historians argue that such incidents were rare, isolated, unauthorised and indeed were denounced, sometimes severely punished, by the authorities. Wind, on that view, doesn't entirely invent anything, but does mislead by selection and implication
I don't know but that was what the historical accuracy section was for!! So using this logic, RepublicanJacobite and MeltyGil must by reason believe that, for example, Errol Flynn's They Died With Their Boots On is an accurate telling of Battle of the Little Big Horn!!
The Irish War of Independence was a bloody period fought between British troops, Auxillaries and the IRA. Yet historically speaking more irish men, women and children were killed by their fellow countrymen in the Irish Civil War than in the preceding conflict!! Please read the aforementioned article.
I brought balance; others bring an agenda. But par for the course on the revisionist soap box (Sic RepublicanJacobite,MeltyGirl) that is Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.93.59 ( talk) 18:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
If I may, I have not tried to silence anyone. A quick look at WP:TPG and WP:SOAP would be the rational I used. If I think I'm wrong, I'd be the first to put my hand up. -- Domer48 'fenian' 23:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says the final execution scene was filmed in Cork City Gaol, but the referenced provided is about Kilmainham Gaol, and said reference says the film was shot there. So, which is it? Clearly, if it's Cork City, we need a source that says so. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 16:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Film was shot entirely in Cork. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460989/locations Kilmanham Jail is in Dublin. QED Kilmanham not used. Goireland ref is wrong. Thickplank ( talk) 13:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Found another location refrence http://www.iftn.ie/locations/sublinks_static/cork/?act1=record&aid=70&rid=2839&tpl=filmography_dets&only=1&force=1 Thickplank ( talk) 13:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I think this article requires a section examining the themes of the film. The cyclical nature of the revolution, for example - as the war progresses, the Free State soldiers find themselves raiding the very houses they used to see raided by the Black and Tans and executing opponents of their regime, just as the Black and Tans had done to their opponents. The only thing they draw back from is torture, and you wonder about that.
But a more important theme within the film is the extent to which the Irish Revolution was a Social Revolution as opposed to a Nationalist Revolution. Loach quotes many IRA members in the film quoting Irish Republicans who say that it was supposed to transform Irish society, not just the colour of the flag. The failure to achieve this, and the reasons for this failure, are one of the main themes of the film, I believe.
Other identifiable themes? What was the film ABOUT? (This isn't the same thing as the plot.) Steve3742 ( talk) 17:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Steve3742, I echo Melty girl's concerns: there are significant issues of WP:NOR and WP:SYN in this section. There are no sources so we can only assume it is the conjectures of an editor. I appreciate there is an interview quote from Loach in the article, but to explicitly draw a connection between what Loach said and what his characters say and do without either Loach or a reliable source making that connection, well, that's original research. If an editor recognizes a possible thematic element, then it's perfectly fine to research it and locate a source which parallels her/his opinion and put it in the article. I hesitate to put such significant content in first without a source. As a reader, if I see such an extensive treatment in an article without a source, I can only assume its an editor's opinion. As it stands now, the first paragraph is fine on its own, but everything after that appears to be the effort of an editor to show how Loach and Laverty manifest that position in their work. If sources can't be found to connect Loach's position and those lines of dialogue then it's synthesis and should be removed.
I did have a chance to glance at the PSL article referenced in the themes section, and it does contain quotes from the film which may assist us in accomplishing the same thing, however. I'll spend some time today digesting it.
Jim Dunning |
talk
14:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I could dispute the OR criticism. From what I can see, OR is using source A and source B to prove point C, when C is a NEW point (it specifically says this.) I'm using Points B and C (the film quotes) to illustrate point A (Ken Loach's quote) - but point A isn't a NEW conclusion. Steve3742 ( talk) 13:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The recurring "historical accuracy" section has been removed (again) because it consists of original research, specifically synthesis of the film's content with other writings not directly related to the film. This is contrary to WP tenets. One source article (counterpunch.org) is only tangentially a review of the film (it mentions reviews of the film, but is not a review itself) and does not support the copy to which it is attached. The other source (Coogan) cannot be a source since it was published a dozen years before the film premiered. Finally, the relevance of an "historical accuracy" section is problematic since the film is fiction, not a documentary; as such, no pretense of accuracy is claimed nor should be inferred. If the story's depiction of historical events engenders a significant reaction and credible sources see fit to react to that, then maybe that information should appear in the Reception section if it is not mere trivia. 173.72.140.146 ( talk) 02:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Can one of the people reverting this please explain their reasoning? 70.20.108.19 ( talk) 23:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I reverted a section header recently as, although the film may have depicted the anti-Treaty IRA as more socially radical or further to the left than it was in reality, it would be an oversimplification to describe this as "the Marxist view". See near the end of this article: http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/History/History100YearsOfSinnFeinPart2.html for some comments from the Irish Marxist group Socialist Democracy on the Civil War. (They also have a review of the film on their website.) While it is legitimate of the article to mention this issue, a detailed discussion of the Irish Civil War is outside the scope of this article and we should avoid biased headers. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It's been a while since I've watched this movie, but I don't remember anyone speaking Irish in it. Am I wrong? Prezbo ( talk) 00:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Just rewatched the film. My earlier impression was that Dan politicized Damien, however this time I noted that he already seemed to know his Marx when they met in jail. Yet Damien's actions seem to be entirely reflexive of him; he abandons school when he sees him beaten and chooses death following Dan's shooting. Am I missing something and is it relative to the synopsis? MartinSFSA ( talk)
I'm not convinced about calling this an "Irish film" in the opening sentence. The fact that it takes place in Ireland is not enough. Throughout the article it is variously described as an "Irish film", and "international co-production" (referring to 8 countries), "British independent film", "European film" and "British film". I suggest ammending "Irish film" to just "film". The remaining sentence makes it very clear that the film takes place during a pivotal moment in Irish history without being misleading about country of origin;
"The Wind That Shakes the Barley is a 2006 war drama film directed by Ken Loach, set during the Irish War of Independence (1919–1922) and the Irish Civil War (1922–1923)."
I will make the change now. Please post here if you would like to discuss this. BananaBork ( talk) 23:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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At present the section includes criticism by Simon Heffer (who admitted he hadn't seen it), Michael Gove (who apparently wasn't in Cannes so hadn't seen it at the time of his review, and according to George Monbiot it seems he hadn't seen it), Ruth Dudley Edwards (who also admitted she hadn't seen the film when reviewing it) and Tim Luckhurst (who also hadn't seen it, according to George Monbiot). It's one thing to have criticism of a film from people to have actually seen it, but to include criticism from four people who haven't seen the film seems somewhat unusual. FDW777 ( talk) 18:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
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Does anyone have a direct link to Heffer's article about this film? I can't find it on the Telegraph site, and the reference given points to a completely different article. 217.155.20.163 19:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Links were removed for the following reasons:
This section could do with some other external links to balance out the socialist analysis that is already there in the one article linked to the Socialist Worker. Logica 02:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
When the men are walking in the fog w/ the stolen motorcycle right before the ambush on the tans, what song are they singing? ty
The song is indeed Óró 'Sé do bheatha 'bhaile. The lyrics of the version from the movie were written by Patrick Pearse of 1916 fame. The air of the song, however, predates Pearse's version and is taken from a Jacobite song from the eighteenth century about the return Searlas Óg/Bonny Prince Charles the son of James II. While traditional Irish music does not enjoy the popularity it once did, to say that Irish people wish to "forget" or "relegate" these songs to history is entirely incorrect. As alluded to many artists have covered this song over the years, one of the most recent being Sinead O'Connor on her 2002 album Sean Nos Nua. That the song is not "politically correct" is spurious with the song being sung on Irish National Television during the recent "Charity You're a Star"(an Irish version of the X-Factor/American Idol talent show). Cliste 23:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The references to the Monbiot article commenting on Tim Luckhurst make insinuations that he did not see the film because the Guardian do not have a record of him attending a screening and that he did not wish to comment. This evidence by itself is clearly not enough to support the insinuation, and it is very damaging to Luckhurst. Thus, the information is clearly not notable because it does not support anything, but instead makes implicit insinuations that Wikipedia should not deal in. If there are no objections, I am removing it. Logoistic 16:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits to the synopsis seem very politically tilted toward Teddy's favor and toward an indictment of Damien, despite the fact that Damien is a more prominent character, that the film is very sympathetic toward Damien even as the situation is complex, and that more of the characters in the film stand with Damien than Teddy. Damien's death seems to be more Teddy's tragedy than the man killed! In my opinion we must strive for a more NPOV tone, both politically and from the perspective of interpreting a work of fiction. -- Melty girl 21:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, I think the plot section is simply too long. There is no need for a blow-by-blow description of the film. Furthermore, this section is now laden with POV language, and here is an example: "ambushes and slaughters an armed convoy" (slaughters is an unnecessary characterization of the events). We need to get this sorted out. The plot synopsis was fine some time back, and there is no reason it cannot and should not be restored to its former state. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 02:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
(deindent) Sorry to say this, Kingstowngalway, but I do not think you grasp the difference between reporting what was depicted in the movie and your own interpretation of it. True, as Twins points out, it's not like that's a simple issue in the first place, especially when a movie is emotionally and politically loaded. Still, you've failed to respond our specific comments as to why the description of Teddy as "a broken man" is a personal interpretation/POV of what's actually seen onscreen. We could accurately say that on the day of Damien's execution, Teddy is upset, grieving, tearful, downcast, etc., but that's all we can say for sure without going into our personal interpretations of what he may have been feeling or how the ordering his own brother's execution may or may not change him. Can you actually demonstrate how the movie SHOWED that Teddy is a broken man? Broken men are radically changed, unable to go on as before because of grief, etc. But does Teddy tear off his uniform? Renounce his path and position? Retreat to his room for a month? Become an alcoholic? Or does he go on to execute another anti-Treaty person the next day? Does he continue to serve in the military, run for office and rise in power despite his grief? We simply don't know, because the movie ends right after the execution. When you write that he's a "broken man" you're telling Wiki readers that Teddy can no longer function because of his grief. This is not depicted onscreen, period. While you continue to be unable to acknowledge this POV in your phraseology, I will continue to be hesitant to spend my time editing this plot summary. And the "broken man" problem is just one example of the problematic content you've added. I fear that you cannot distinguish between what's onscreen and your own personal assumptions.
BTW, I do think it's significant that neither Kingstowngalway nor Twins saw what was happening as an edit war. Perhaps protection was unnecessary. But it's good that everyone is talking. I must say that I feel rather pessimistic though. -- Melty girl ( talk) 06:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
A couple of suggestions for revising the Plot section. Exclude quotes in their entirety because this is an overview of the film -- quotes are way too specific for this. Define key events but don't get in so much detail. The Plot section is meant to complement the rest of the film article so the background and the reception can be understood. It's really a matter of boiling it down to the elements -- the ones that everyone can agree happens on the screen. If there is a particular issue that is questionable, try to make the issue ambiguous. For instance, one issue that I've seen often is the type of vehicle or weapon used in a film even though it's never stated, and there is edit warring over that. A better solution is to just say "car" or "gun". I don't know if the same thinking could apply here, but it's just a matter of providing plot points for a brief understanding of the film to serve as context for the article, not to attempt replicating whatever underlying themes that may be perceived. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 19:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The plot summary is clearly biased against Damien and in favor of Teddy. Words like "slaughter" are loaded; while the definition may be appropriate, one has to consider the connotation of words as well. The summary also focuses on Teddy more than Damien, which is inconsistent with the screen time allotted to their respective characters. The very POV nature of the plot summary detracts from the seriousness of the article and should be fixed. This is my first post on Wikipedia, so I'd be afraid I'd mess up the article if I edited it. Missandei ( talk) 03:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, As the synopsis now stands, I am willing to accept it with one exception. There should be at least some mention of the look on Teddy's face during the execution. As Teddy sees it, he is being forced to choose between preserving what limited independence his country has gained and the life of his little brother. This is a question that makes Teddy feel sick in the pit of his stomache and Padraic Delaney shows it on his face from the moment he visits Damien in the prison cell.
Damien, however, was motivated to fight in the Irish War of Independence by his dream of a Socialist Republic. It was in pursuit of this dream that he shot Chris Reilly. For Damien to accept anything less than its immediate fulfillment would make him feel that all the killing he did in the War of Independence had been for nothing. Rather than even consider this as a possibility, he prefers death, even with the full knowledge of the devastating pain it will cause Sinèad.
As for me, I am inclined to view both Teddy and Damien as off the mark. As a Traditionalist Catholic and a Paleoconservative, I view laissez faire capitalism and socialism nothing more than two sides of a counterfeit coin. Nevetheless, Damien's repudiation of the Catholic religion is something with which I can never identify.
As for my "error" about Damien and Sinèad's marriage, it was caused by a photograph from Dan Breen's "My Fight for Irish Freedom." Dan Breen's wife wore a wedding dress uncannily similar to what Sinèad wears at the village celebration. Best Wishes, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 13:44, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, Some things in my recent edits always seemed to me to be progressively less POV, yet you continue to remove them. For example, Damien is very "contemptuous" of Teddy during their debate outside the church. He regards Teddy as a traitor who has compromised with the enemy. Also, the Kilmichael Ambush is definitely the basis for the attack on the Auxiliary Division depicted in the film. The article on Kilmichael makes that very clear. In addition, after his arrest, Damien is facing a traitor's death no matter what decision he makes. Teddy does not realize that the Anti-Treaty IRA is much bigger than their little village. If Damien had turned on them, Sinead would have renounced him and the IRA would have hunted him to the ends of the earth. Therefore, Damien held firm to what I consider his misguided principles and dies unbeaten. As for the links to other articles, they were meant only to assist anyone looking to delve into some of the real history which inspired the film and the issues discussed therein. Best Wishes to You and Your Coming Child, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 13:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear Melty Girl, As I promised to defend my recent edits on the talk page, that is what I am doing now. I too am tired of this constant battle, but I really don't see how this dispute can be resolved unless we both make concessions. As for me, I have attempted to read the lists of rules that you have linked to several times. However, they proved unable to hold my attention (I am autistic). I have realized that Damien is the protagonist while reading a book about story structure by Robert McKee. I have tried to alter my former focus on Teddy as a result, while also giving his viewpoint a fair hearing so that the viewer can decide for themselves whether Teddy or Damien is correct about the Treaty. As for "Dominion status within the British Empire" vs. "Full Independence," it was merely meant to describe the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and what Damien objects to about it. Would a statement that the Treaty makes Ireland into an "British Dominion instead of an fully independent Republic" be sufficiently neutral? I described Damien as "disgusted" over having to kill Chris Reilly, because "rattled" seems like too much of an understatement considering his obvious horror at having to kill a close friend. As for Teddy, even those editors who opposed my currently regretted description of him as "a broken man" conceeded that he is "very sad" on the day of Damien's execution. I still insist that some mention be made of this. If these matters would make the plot section too long, I am sure that other paragraphs could be shortened. As for the other sections I have worked on, I can locate citations for them if need be. At present, however, I am suffering through a very devastating heatbreak. However, I am certain that this article still could use improvement. Best Wishes, Kingstowngalway ( talk) 01:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Kingstowngalway, it is rare that someone works on a plot synopsis, for nine months with no sign of stopping. Is there any way to get you to see that obsessively changing the wording in this section, usually by lengthening it (it's already too long) and making other violations of MOS:FILM is a pointless exercise? Most of your wording changes do not improve anything -- obsessively swapping in synonyms of your own words that you've already changed countless times only makes lateral moves. At a certain point, I started undoing your changes, because you're spinning your wheels, gradually worsening the prose, and slowly making the section longer and longer (the edit history is there for anyone to see). The only thing that you've managed to stop doing as much is adding as much biased material.
Meanwhile, all other editors are rebuffed from trying to improve this article -- who would want to try to contribute when they can see that you seem likely to go on for years changing the wording, even if someone was to come along and give it the rewrite and word cut it should have? Is there any way that you're going to let go of this plot section? After nine months, you should have been able to retell this rather short story as effectively as is possible for one person to do. This is a finite topic, not something to be researched and updated constantly like a bio of a living person or an academic subject. Revisiting this plot over and over seems rather bizarre. Where is the endpoint for you? And why don't you respect community policies or the other editors above who have tried to help get you on a better path? -- Melty girl 19:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I managed to cull unnecessary details from and refocus the plot section, as well as get the length back down below 700 words, as per the MOS:FILM guideline. Please, please, please don't bog it down again.
It's been a year of this nonsense, Kingstowngalway, and a lot of discussion with multiple editors hasn't sunk in. This isn't supposed to be a blow-by-blow and it's not supposed to be long. If you can restrain yourself, please do (don't know if you're able to). -- Melty girl 05:31, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
A section on historical accuracy is undoubtedly valuable; the quotations provided are described as being what "critics have noted" and it is clearly verifiable that critics have indeed made those observations. If any critics are on record as having praised the film on grounds of historical accuracy then that too can be noted. Thoskit ( talk) 03:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
(Sigh...) The film's critics who are quoted are critics who have published their opinions - their reviews are as notable as any film critics' can be. As for verifiability, the claim made by the section intro is that critics expressed these views, & you can't get a much more verifiable than providing a direct link to said reviews. Thoskit ( talk) 04:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
i.e. that all arguments or beliefs do have, in fact, contrary and opposing points of view. Sic truth.
I added the historical accuracy section because, after watching, the movie I was piqued by some of its emotive elements such as the indiscriminate killings and the sectarianism.
This lead me to read several wikipedia articles on the Anglo Irish War and the Irish Civil War and also several reviews of the film which questioned the films historical contexts.
But almost as soon as I had created a section entitled Historical accuracy an editor (called RepublicanJacobite, hmmm no strong and NPOV issues there, me thinks!!) deleted it under the usual auspices that the references don't suffice.
The 'reference line' is always peddled when an editor has issue with some one else's point of view! As most articles on wikipedia are under referenced (but most of them don't hold contentious POVs - unless you want to argue about the manufacturing processes involved in making Butt Plugs or the educational merits of Pokemon et al and etc')
Ironically if you care to look at the website from which the information came:
Yep opendemocracy.net the foremost site on the web for open-minded and fair opinion, now decried as a poor place for unsourced references. I'll remember not to believe a word again on that 'duplicitous' site!!
The simple problem here, is you have two editors who have a very jaundiced opinion on Ireland. They are both American who have been brought up in staunchly republican families, whose ancestors, rather than stay in Ireland, left and emigrated to 'the land of opportunity'. (Remember the grass is always greener on the other side).
This article, as it stands, is idolising *their* understanding of the war for Irish Independance, in fact, all I tried to do was help the 'lazy reader' who can't be bothered to read half a dozen seperate articles about the period by creating context by noting and acknowledging that elements of the plot in the film did occur but there are historical differences. People should understand why The Wind That Shakes the Barley is a WORK OF FICTION!
But according to the editor named MeltyGirl, a section entitled Historical accuracy has no place in this article as it's all about the film The Wind That Shakes The Barley; it's not a history lesson. So is that a new Wikipedia policy? All films covering historical events can't be analysed. Well, we should all get over to Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers articles, and make some changes Pronto!! Or are we just cherry picking here!?
Or is MeltyGirl simply trying to say don't put anything in this article that gets in the way of *her* unchallenged view of history which this movie portrays perfectly?
Which really comes down is whether the cruelty of the British in the Irish War of Independence was commonplace or isolated and sporadic, hence this quote from opendemocracy.net:
What is far more contentious is whether any of [the brutality] – except the swearing – was commonplace, routine, or typical of British behaviour as the film implies, or how far it was sanctioned by political or military leaders. Many historians argue that such incidents were rare, isolated, unauthorised and indeed were denounced, sometimes severely punished, by the authorities. Wind, on that view, doesn't entirely invent anything, but does mislead by selection and implication
I don't know but that was what the historical accuracy section was for!! So using this logic, RepublicanJacobite and MeltyGil must by reason believe that, for example, Errol Flynn's They Died With Their Boots On is an accurate telling of Battle of the Little Big Horn!!
The Irish War of Independence was a bloody period fought between British troops, Auxillaries and the IRA. Yet historically speaking more irish men, women and children were killed by their fellow countrymen in the Irish Civil War than in the preceding conflict!! Please read the aforementioned article.
I brought balance; others bring an agenda. But par for the course on the revisionist soap box (Sic RepublicanJacobite,MeltyGirl) that is Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.93.59 ( talk) 18:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
If I may, I have not tried to silence anyone. A quick look at WP:TPG and WP:SOAP would be the rational I used. If I think I'm wrong, I'd be the first to put my hand up. -- Domer48 'fenian' 23:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says the final execution scene was filmed in Cork City Gaol, but the referenced provided is about Kilmainham Gaol, and said reference says the film was shot there. So, which is it? Clearly, if it's Cork City, we need a source that says so. --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 16:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Film was shot entirely in Cork. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460989/locations Kilmanham Jail is in Dublin. QED Kilmanham not used. Goireland ref is wrong. Thickplank ( talk) 13:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Found another location refrence http://www.iftn.ie/locations/sublinks_static/cork/?act1=record&aid=70&rid=2839&tpl=filmography_dets&only=1&force=1 Thickplank ( talk) 13:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I think this article requires a section examining the themes of the film. The cyclical nature of the revolution, for example - as the war progresses, the Free State soldiers find themselves raiding the very houses they used to see raided by the Black and Tans and executing opponents of their regime, just as the Black and Tans had done to their opponents. The only thing they draw back from is torture, and you wonder about that.
But a more important theme within the film is the extent to which the Irish Revolution was a Social Revolution as opposed to a Nationalist Revolution. Loach quotes many IRA members in the film quoting Irish Republicans who say that it was supposed to transform Irish society, not just the colour of the flag. The failure to achieve this, and the reasons for this failure, are one of the main themes of the film, I believe.
Other identifiable themes? What was the film ABOUT? (This isn't the same thing as the plot.) Steve3742 ( talk) 17:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Steve3742, I echo Melty girl's concerns: there are significant issues of WP:NOR and WP:SYN in this section. There are no sources so we can only assume it is the conjectures of an editor. I appreciate there is an interview quote from Loach in the article, but to explicitly draw a connection between what Loach said and what his characters say and do without either Loach or a reliable source making that connection, well, that's original research. If an editor recognizes a possible thematic element, then it's perfectly fine to research it and locate a source which parallels her/his opinion and put it in the article. I hesitate to put such significant content in first without a source. As a reader, if I see such an extensive treatment in an article without a source, I can only assume its an editor's opinion. As it stands now, the first paragraph is fine on its own, but everything after that appears to be the effort of an editor to show how Loach and Laverty manifest that position in their work. If sources can't be found to connect Loach's position and those lines of dialogue then it's synthesis and should be removed.
I did have a chance to glance at the PSL article referenced in the themes section, and it does contain quotes from the film which may assist us in accomplishing the same thing, however. I'll spend some time today digesting it.
Jim Dunning |
talk
14:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I could dispute the OR criticism. From what I can see, OR is using source A and source B to prove point C, when C is a NEW point (it specifically says this.) I'm using Points B and C (the film quotes) to illustrate point A (Ken Loach's quote) - but point A isn't a NEW conclusion. Steve3742 ( talk) 13:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
The recurring "historical accuracy" section has been removed (again) because it consists of original research, specifically synthesis of the film's content with other writings not directly related to the film. This is contrary to WP tenets. One source article (counterpunch.org) is only tangentially a review of the film (it mentions reviews of the film, but is not a review itself) and does not support the copy to which it is attached. The other source (Coogan) cannot be a source since it was published a dozen years before the film premiered. Finally, the relevance of an "historical accuracy" section is problematic since the film is fiction, not a documentary; as such, no pretense of accuracy is claimed nor should be inferred. If the story's depiction of historical events engenders a significant reaction and credible sources see fit to react to that, then maybe that information should appear in the Reception section if it is not mere trivia. 173.72.140.146 ( talk) 02:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Can one of the people reverting this please explain their reasoning? 70.20.108.19 ( talk) 23:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I reverted a section header recently as, although the film may have depicted the anti-Treaty IRA as more socially radical or further to the left than it was in reality, it would be an oversimplification to describe this as "the Marxist view". See near the end of this article: http://www.socialistdemocracy.org/History/History100YearsOfSinnFeinPart2.html for some comments from the Irish Marxist group Socialist Democracy on the Civil War. (They also have a review of the film on their website.) While it is legitimate of the article to mention this issue, a detailed discussion of the Irish Civil War is outside the scope of this article and we should avoid biased headers. PatGallacher ( talk) 15:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It's been a while since I've watched this movie, but I don't remember anyone speaking Irish in it. Am I wrong? Prezbo ( talk) 00:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Just rewatched the film. My earlier impression was that Dan politicized Damien, however this time I noted that he already seemed to know his Marx when they met in jail. Yet Damien's actions seem to be entirely reflexive of him; he abandons school when he sees him beaten and chooses death following Dan's shooting. Am I missing something and is it relative to the synopsis? MartinSFSA ( talk)
I'm not convinced about calling this an "Irish film" in the opening sentence. The fact that it takes place in Ireland is not enough. Throughout the article it is variously described as an "Irish film", and "international co-production" (referring to 8 countries), "British independent film", "European film" and "British film". I suggest ammending "Irish film" to just "film". The remaining sentence makes it very clear that the film takes place during a pivotal moment in Irish history without being misleading about country of origin;
"The Wind That Shakes the Barley is a 2006 war drama film directed by Ken Loach, set during the Irish War of Independence (1919–1922) and the Irish Civil War (1922–1923)."
I will make the change now. Please post here if you would like to discuss this. BananaBork ( talk) 23:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
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At present the section includes criticism by Simon Heffer (who admitted he hadn't seen it), Michael Gove (who apparently wasn't in Cannes so hadn't seen it at the time of his review, and according to George Monbiot it seems he hadn't seen it), Ruth Dudley Edwards (who also admitted she hadn't seen the film when reviewing it) and Tim Luckhurst (who also hadn't seen it, according to George Monbiot). It's one thing to have criticism of a film from people to have actually seen it, but to include criticism from four people who haven't seen the film seems somewhat unusual. FDW777 ( talk) 18:08, 11 February 2020 (UTC)