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Number of fatally wounded changed from 14 to 13. The 14th died 4 1/2 months later, with the wounds he recieved possibly contributing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.67.186 ( talk) 10:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Who was it that edited and destroyed the conflict box I made? Please restore it. There was nothing wrong with it in the first place!! - Ireland4Ever
This needs work. The nature of such violence and the relations of the various groups and their motives and tactics needs to be charted in detail. Though violence in whatever form it takes is terrible, there is a difference between defensive military activity and knowingly targeting innocent civilians e.g. the "Real" IRA's killings at Omagh, or Bloody Sunday. -- 20 October 2002 user:DanKeshet
in Nationalist or Republican political parties, 2/3 through the article, the phrase "insight into the thinking of" is in quotes, but the passive voice of described avoids attributing the quote, which is fairly significant. Although i know very little of Irish politics, i did a little googling and i found a transcript in which the phrase is used by Fraser Agnew. Could this be the source of this quote? If noone objects, i'll attribute it to him in the article. Foobaz· ✐ 07:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reading this paragraph seems to me that someone does not have a clear idea of who the Nationalist where, and who the Unionist were. As of 9/14/07 it appears switched in all context. If someone else would like to verify and change this, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.74.70 ( talk) 01:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I note that this article does not use the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" once throughout the entire article. Surely this is necessary for an article on the NI troubles! -- 25 April 2005 143.117.143.42
In regards to referring to the IRA as a 'terrorist' organization, i think the complexity of the situation and the specific connotation applied to the term as we know it today needs to be taken into account. Certainly the IRA has engaged in dubious and illegal, not to mention immoral behavior. However, with terrorism being associated with the actions of islamo-fascists, it is imperative to recognize the Troubles and its further implications as a different animal. Terrorist aspects of the Irish struggle should not undermine the fundamental difference in the political and social history of the country. Certainly there is more legitimacy in Irish resistance than in Islamic terrorism aimed at destroying Israel and the Western world as we know it -- 16 December 2005 69.161.36.180
In many places in Ireland, especially parts of the Six Counties, the Provos, or PIRA are not considered to be terrorists: they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of a country that was oppressed by the English for several hundred years, a land which Britain still refuses to grant its freedom. Ireland should be free, the whole of it, not just a part. -- 2 March 2006 68.58.116.87
One must consider that Northan Ireland has a Unionist majority"In the 2001 census, 45.5% of the Northern Irish population were Protestant, (Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist and other Protestant denominations), and 40.3% of the population were Roman Catholic. 13.9% of the population did not specify a religion. While a plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themelves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither, 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland", that is why partition was carried out originally. If the Northan Irish had wished to join the the Republic of Ireland they had the oppertunity in the 1920's via the will of an elected body (see Irish Free State), shurly for a minority group to try and overturn the view of the majorty by means of violent acts must make them terrorists.( 81.159.56.4 16:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)).
There was no vote,the partion came about through negotiations involving Michael Collins and British representatives,this is what led to the Irish Civil War.It is also well known that for generations many members of the Catholic communities were put into housing that did not entitle then to a vote.This was mostly evident in Derry wher there was a majority of Catholics but unionists were in power.This is surely worse than any percieved terrorism,of which there are several unionist and loyalist groups also, and is ,in fact, similar to a violent dictatorship such as Mugabe in Zimbabwe.
Also the word terrorism was thought up by the Americans before an after the World Trade Centre attacks and was adopted by certain people in Northern Ireland as a biased term which is an extreme POV.This term is not used for one section but is for the other.Either both or none.Also there seems to be no mention of the over spill of violence into the Republic which I feel is an integral part of the story that needs to be told,why is there not much,if any, mention of the dublin monaghan bombings?
Lapsed Pacifist has been here again. Conributed much POV, which needs to be drastically cleaned up. Some examples:
"and the anger felt by the Irish because of the occupation and genocide by the British. (It was only in the last 2 years that Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, made a formal apology on behalf of the United Kingdom for the treatment of the Irish people during the preceeding 400 years.)"
"Except for unionists, all other segments argued that the Northern Ireland of the 1960s needed change"
"while the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the British army and loyalists stepped up their violence to oppose it."
"when the anti-Catholic Orange Order insist on parading through Catholic neighbourhoods"
"the slowness of others has led to Sinn Féin witholding its support fom the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the time being"
-- Jonto 22:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree totally. I had not seen those edits bt they are so POV it beggars belief. We are going to have to keep an eye on LP's edits more thoroughly and cull that sort of tone. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised, Jtd, that you did'nt see fit to check whether or not I actually made those edits. Three to five look factual, I don't see the problem with them. The first definitely does'nt look like anything I've ever written, and I'm also doubtful about the second. But, by all means, keep an eye on my edits. Just make sure they're mine. -- Lapsed Pacifist 23:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I've tweaked the collusion section slightly for tone; it read a little like editorialising and generalisation of the parties involved. Evilteuf 14:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It is claimed that "many British commentators" use the term "the Irish Problem". Perhaps this comment should be deleted until someone provides evidence of this use in recent history. If "many" turns out to be relatively few, then the claim should be clarified in this respect, and then it would become a rather meaningless statement not worthy to be in the article anyway. -- 4 August 2005 219.78.68.166
I deleted this claim. I've not heard it used in 10 or 20 years, and the whole remark seemed to add little. -- Stevelinton 20:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I didn't read this close enough, but there seems to be a shocking omission of historical context: "What is clear is that its origins lie in the century-long debate over whether Ireland, or part of Ireland, should be part of the United Kingdom"
A single century?!?! Methinks it's a bit older than that! The priming of the pump is a couple of centuries older than that. Some reference must be made to the Irish Plantations. Without the scottish settlements there would of been no controversy post WWI.
Otherwise much credit to the authours for a balanced and short article that links to more meaty articles. -- 9 August 2005 69.23.220.138
The Irish did NOT invite the normans, that was the king of Leinster. Thats like saying the English invited the nazis into England because the Duke of York asked adolf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.122.105.151 ( talk) 22:27, 2 March 2007
one irish person does not make it"the Irish" User:Shamboss 17:23,23 january 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shambosse ( talk • contribs)
Surely there are some more neutral and wide-ranging academic/historical studies that could be listed? "Steaknife" is interesting, but is journalism, not history and covers only a tiny fraction of the topic. Stevelinton 20:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been going through the MoD Freedom of Information releases, and have found some documents that might be useful to fleshing this article, or related ones, out. I'll just link them here in case they're of help - do we have an Army in Northern Ireland page? Shimgray | talk | 15:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
More needs to be said about modern times, at least from 2000 onwards. The continuation of this "war", carried out in a 1st world country, which has very high standards of education, health, freedom, not to mention a booming economy, and of course the tight checks and measures on British rule and interference, should be taken into account. Armed struggle may be justifiable in 3rd world countries where there is REAL oppression, but in this case, the agitators (the IRA) should be held accountable for the hell they have put the Irish people through for their own selfish political and financial gain. -- 2 December 2005 210.211.80.5
I would dispute the accuracy of that claim. Provisional Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA involved themselves in the Northern Ireland conflict on explicit republican grounds. Provisional Sinn Fein Splits from Sinn Fein was a rejection of Marxist politics on the grounds that it was alienating traditional supporters of the republican movement, the latter part and marxist group of the party became known as Offical Sinn Fein -- 27 December 2005 83.70.28.240
seemed POV (terms like 'carnage'). had read:"A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of provisional IRA bombs." Mike McGregor (Can) 19:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to Ulster, as sectarian tension is not confined to the six counties. I used the religious rather than the political division, as the trouble is older than the current political divisions. -- Lapsed Pacifist 10:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
This article is dreadful considering its importance in many histories (Irish, British, colonial etc). Why all the gaps in information and the history? -- max rspct leave a message 15:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, and if its not done, people will just come on and write crap until its changed. Can I propose a reorganisation along these lines:
-The Civil Rights campaign and its breakdown into violence. -The subsequent communal violence in derry/londonderry and belfast. -The deployment of the British army, the start of the PIRA campaign in earnest (1971). The loyalists response. -Internment and Bloody Sunday - the dissafecti9on of the nationalist community -The fall of Stormont and introduction of Direct Rule -Sunningdale Agreement and the Ulster Workers Council Strike -The Prison issue and Hunger Strikes -The IRA's "long war" late 1970s to early 1990s (main article at PIRA page). -Anglo Irish Agreement 1985 -Loyalist upsurge in killings c. 1986-1994 -Ceasefires 1994 -Agreement 1998
-Casualty breakdown (leave as now) -motivations (as now) -current status, political and security
Any comments? -- Jdorney 17:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Sounds okay. Read the article and whilst I found some parts really good, not least the fact it provided what felt like a thorough but brief NPOV summary, it certainly could do with more material in places. Or at the least not the feel to be a list of other pages. Surely there was some sort of historical narrative into which the key events can be placed. I don't know enough to write it as I came to the page to learn it. Panlane -- 82.38.227.22 20:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I've written most of what I talked about above. Editors are welcome to comment/change as they see fit. -- Jdorney 17:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Added detail about Ulster Resistance, Force Research Unit and "Death on the Rock"- these werent appearing yet omitting them leaves the section with a POV/one side of the story kind of feel. Hope it helps. Fluffy999 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Any objection to replacing one of the 2 Gerry Adams pictures with a picture of someone else? John Hume for example, or even David Trimble. Its not a POV thing, just that Hume perhaps played a big role in the ceasefires etc. Theres also no image of Ian Paisley, who is also a major contributor to events throughout the period. Fluffy999 00:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes the images are definately low quality. Dont remember the program- afaik Paisley always refused to appear in images with Adams.
First paragraph- "although the conflict does not qualify as a war in any legal sense." Seems POVish. Over at War its stated: "the term "war" is restricted by legal definition to those conflicts where one or both belligerents have formally declared war"
There has at least been a few declarations of "war". Two that spring to mind are the UVF in 1966, and the PIRA's fairly constant insistance it was at "war". The War article also makes the case that there are reasons why wars arent strictly declared- so a war between opposing sides can be waged but remained publicly undeclared for various reasons.
I say its POVish because the british government made the "Criminalisation" of the PIRA an objective of their part in the conflict. So the first paragraph frames the article from the outset with their POV.
The point that was trying to be made could be that the combatents werent strictly speaking standing armies with uniforms, advanced military hardware etc. I prefer the low intensity conflict definition. Fluffy999 10:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need such a long and slightly confusing background section? The history of Ireland and of Ulster is covered in great detail elsewhere. Isn't it better to concentrate on the immediate roots of the troubles, ie since 1912 or so? Other wise people will keep adding details on things going back as far as the Nine Years War, the Plantation of Ulster, the 1641 rebellion, the Cromwellian conquest, the sige of Derry, the battle of the Boyne etc etc etc. Apart from anything else, it is important to keep the article to managable length. Jdorney 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Having clarified this passage, I'm more convinced than ever that it should be cut out entirely and the relevant links given for the main articles. A paragraph can't hope to cover four hundred years of Irish history, while still explaining it properly. Besides, the 1790s etc are not directly relevant to the content of this article. Any comments? Jdorney 16:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I feel the latter definition distorts the entire conflict claiming it to be religious. The former is the original dynamic and as such is inherently political; the latter and all others are merely additions to that conflict. Can anybody here show how the conflict is religious as opposed to religion being used to justify the conquerers keeping the power? I have yet to meet a nationalist who kills somebody because of their religion. How, pray tell, are people killing each other about a God rather than about controlling power here? Please, those using the labels "Catholic" and "Protestant" here, justify why they are better labels than native/nationalist and settler/unionist, both of which are political labels. El Gringo 02:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Catholic and Protestant is also a political term set in its own time and context. From roughly 1603, when the English first established control over all of Ireland, until the 1820s, the main criterion for belonging to the dominant group in the state was not ethnic origin, but religious conformity. The Protestant Ascendancy meant just that, it was a ruling group of Church of Ireland members. There is no contradiction between highlighting the importance of religion and argueing that hte conflict was always about power. Religion itself was about power.
Now it is true that this was also originally mainly a division between settler and native, but it was never execlusively so. Moreover, by the 1790s it makes no sense to talk about "settlers and natives", all concerned were natives, going back 100 years at least. What's more they didn't describe themselves as British or Irish, as they do now, they used the terms Catholic, Protestant (meaning CoI) and dissenter (meaning Protestants who did not conform to the state church -including presbyterians).
Furthermore, it is not true to say that all Catholics are descended from Gaelic Irish people and that no Protestants are. A quick survey of names in NI and indeed the rest of Ireland, will reveal otherwise. It is true that religion in itself is not currently the major issue in the conflict, but the communal division is marked by religious criteria and not by ethnic ones (ie language, descent etc). For modern divisions, you can use the terms nationalist and unionist, but to suggest that the terms Catholic and Protestant are irrelevant is not accurate.
Jdorney 12:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Native against invader is more accurate,the fact that many protestants were involved in the struggle for emancipation from the British,Wolfetone being one of the more famous examples,it is incorrect to say it is a Catholic versus Protestant struggle.
Looking for the article "Northern Ireland conflict", I found that there was no such thing, and consequently created it, as a redirect to this page. Now I wonder if this was right, i.e. if "Northern Ireland conflict" and "The Troubles" are synonymous terms, or whether "The Troubles" are just part of the Northern Ireland conflict; in the latter case, Northern Ireland conflict would have to be made into a page of its own right, I assume.-- Robin.rueth 13:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, one and the same thing. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"The roots of the Troubles lie in the failure of Northern Ireland to integrate the Catholic/nationalist population within its borders into its state."
Is this not just stating the obvious? What this sentence means is that, for whatever reason, a significant portion of nationalists in Northern Ireland never accepted the legitimacy of the state, leading in the end to political conflict. It is not a commentary on this fact, or a judgement, or apportioning blame, so I don't see why it would need a citation. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Something I have noticed in the article is that it states that once the 1994 ceasefires where declared it was the effective end to the troubles. It does make mention to limited violence following this ceasefire however this completely ignores the end of the ceasefire in February 1996 with the Canary Wharf bombings and the other attacks which lead to the return to complete violence by the IRA and other paramilitaries. I feel the article should reflect the fact that peace was not truly declared in Northern Ireland until the 1998 ceasefire. Butch-cassidy 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There was an edit by IP 216.194.4.244, adding a new figure for the numbers of casualties in the intro; the edit looks a little clumsy to me (and certainly doesn't read very well), and needs looking at. I don't know enough on the subject to correct (don't even remember why I stumbled across the page!). Given that the casualty figures also appear later in the article in the tables, there needs to be some consistency.
In the meantime, I'm about to remove a bit of text from the article around said tables, since the sentences "Most of those killed were civilians or members of the security forces, with smaller groups of victims identified with republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. It is often disputed whether some civilians were members of paramilitary organisations due to their secretive nature." appear in both the Responsibility and the Status sections. I'm leaving the one in the Status section, since that seems more appropriate. Carre 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
While much has been made of the situation in later years of the 20th century,it should be remembered this conflict is comprised of betrayals by both sides. Religion has been and will always be the dividing factor in Ireland, North and South. The Unitied Irishmen were betrayed by the Catholics at the behest of the church, the church was bribed with the right to train priests in Ireland. A hundred years earlier a protestant was hired by the Pope to kill the King and take control because Irish priests were threatening his control.
This is where the fallacy lies in Irish history both protestants and Catholics did not want British rule in the 18th,19th and early 20th century.This changed with the referendum after WW1. The northern Irish Protestant developed a siege mentality after the free state passed a series of extremely Draconian Laws which curtailed the Protestant's right to work and live in the free state.
The TROUBLES started over not a percieved injustice to Catholics but an injustice which effected both working class groups equally. The problem is that valid points were subsumed by a religious intolerance,(propagated by both religions)and therefore neither protestant or catholic can hold his head up and look innocent.
While many are looking forward, all I have seen in Northern Ireland is a hardening of the tribalism in the last few years. Before anyone asks I have lived here for over 40 years, I was a child when Bloody Sunday happened and I lament this situation.
The only way forward is the intergration of our schools but this is being fought tooth and claw by the Catholic church and this with the political climate here going to both extremes does not bode well for the future. This has not ended, maybe I am wrong (hopefully) but in all likelihood this is a lull in the problem.
Jdorney 12:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that we need to ditch, or at least radically cut, the background section? its far too long and confusing for the general reader right now. Perhaps it should be moved to a different article? Jdorney 20:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone fill in the releavant information in the infobox? Exiledone 17:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Exiledone 19:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Irish Republican Army, Irish National Liberation Army | British Army, Royal Ulster Constabulary | Various Loyalist paramilitary groups | ||||||
Commanders and leaders | ||||||||
IRA Army Council | Various | Various, including CLMC, UAC and ULCCC | ||||||
Strength | ||||||||
750 active IRA members in the 1980s, INLA unknown | Approximately 17,000 British Army presonnel at peak, 7,000 RUC personnel at peak | Unknown | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
Total of 394 republican paramilitaries | Total of 1,112 British security personnel | Total of 151 loyalist paramilitaries | ||||||
1857 civilians |
Stu, as you know an infobox on this subject is going to be difficult to manage due to the sensitivity of the subject and the complex nature. However, that infobox is a pretty good stab at one.-- Vintagekits 13:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Republican Paramilitaries: Provisional IRA Primarily Official IRA until 1973 Irish National Liberation Army |
Security Forces: British Army Royal Ulster Constabulary Ulster Defence Regiment Other Security Forces |
Loyalist Paramilitaries: Ulster Volunteer Force Ulster Defence Association | ||||||
Commanders and leaders | ||||||||
IRA Army Council | Various | Various including ULCCC and CLMC | ||||||
Strength | ||||||||
Provisional IRA:Peak strength c.1,500, current strength c.300 Official IRA:Peak strength unkown INLA:Peak strength unknown, current strength c.30 |
British Army:c.11,000 RUC:8,500 (1990's) UDR:2,440 (1970) |
UVF: c.1,000 (1970's), current strength ?00 UDA c.20,000 (1970) current strength ?00 | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
Republican Paramilitaries 394 Security Forces 1,123 Loyalist Paramilitaries 151 Civilians 1,855 50,000 of any wounded |
I've taken this out; it was vague, semi-coherent, and contained no actual content beyond a vague implication that torture was in a training manual. If you want to say this, say it, and discuss the allegations appropriately; the section as it stood, though, meandered around the point and was no use to anyone. "Someone says that this book, which we're claiming was a standard handbook, quoted someone else, who had in the past talked about using torture". Really, that's what it boiled down to.
There is useful material that can be written on the military theory of the British Army's role in the troubles - it is, after all, a rare and thus well-studied example of how a Western power has had to deal with this kind of thing "at home" - but that section wasn't it; it was just a vague unsourced bundle of implication, which did not help the reader in the slightest. Shimgray | talk | 18:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering why the term "The Troubles" had the Irish equivalent in brackets in the opening paragraph. Is it Wikipedia's intention to teach people Gaelic, or is there genuine usage of the phrase in Irish?
Taken to the extreme, to help illustrate my point: should we also include the translation of Indoor cycling and Internal decapitation? Should the Ulster Lallans be included too? -- Mal 07:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the fact that this article is about the troubles in Ireland, and that in Ireland it is commonly known under the Irish Gaelic name, it seems appropriate to have the Irish name there. Fionnlaoch ( talk) 13:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Further to the numerous discussions, largely on Wikipedia talk:Irish Wikipedians' notice board, a proposal has been made attempt to neutrally categorise individuals imprisoned during The Troubles. Your comments are welcomed at:
Thanks. Rockpocke t 00:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
"In response to this campaign and the perceived erosion of both the British character and unionist domination of Northern Ireland, loyalist paramilitaries such as the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defence Association (UDA) launched their own campaigns against the nationalist population".
this statement is totally inaccurate, the UDA campaign was launched in 1966 in response to the civil rights association. 3 years before the Troubles officially began. It could be argued that the split in the IRA was in response to this sectarian murder campaign by loyalists and the perceived need by the bationalist communities to defend themselves-- MarkyMarkDCU 15:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge there was never a single casualty outside England. As a matter of policy, the Provos did not attack targets in Scotland or Wales. There was the single attack in the early 80s in the Shetland Islands when the Queen was opening a gas terminal, but there weren't any casualties. It's probably better as England to emphasise the location of the casualties, but I'm open to discussion. One Night In Hackney 303 20:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with using England rather than the UK. Although the IRA may not have actively targeted other parts of the UK in a military sense, the "ethno-polictical conflict" most certainly was (and is) present in Scotland. The sectarianism in Glasgow, for example, was closely linked, often directly, to the troubles. Regardless, I think it's unhelpful to use England when the UK adequately and sufficiently precisely describes the situation, since England and the UK are confused too often. Mccron ( talk) 21:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have written a memoir which I think adds to the understanding of the relationship between the NICRA and the IRA as it then was (1960s, attempting to go political under Goulding). This was published in April 2006 by a Tyndall-Lilliput combination, is publicly available, and is called 'Century of Endeavour'. It goes in some depth to the foundation of the Wolfe Tone Societies and the steps which led to the development of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, under influences which included the Connolly Association in London. An overview can be seen via my web-site which is at http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/ and an electonic version of the book, with notes and references hotlinked into source material, is accessible by arrangement with me in the short run, and in the long run will be publicly available one way or another.
I could write a revised entry on the origin of the Troubles in NI, but would not want to be seen as simply promoting my book. I would prefer if someone else who knew the period were to write an update, drawing on my book as a referenceable source, and I would co-operate with this process by making available the e-version of the book.
There was an element in the IRA in the 60s which genuinely wanted to go the political road and to prove it would work without violence, and in my time I tried to act as a source of policies for this process.
Perhaps someone like Daltun O Ceallaigh, who is referenced, might be persuaded to take this up? Should I sugggest it to him?
Roy Johnston 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Roy Johnston April 3, 2007
This page seems mostly one sided to me, and I'm not even from NI, the page needs to show all details not just ones that involve loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces, the nationalist paramilitaries killed more people then the other two combined (nevermind the disappeared) and yet they are hardly touched upon in this article, they seem to be virtually revered on other pages in this site, also collusion must be looked at in both ways.
I am not saying this out of spite or anything I was doing research for a history essay on the troubles and was looking at wikipedia, as you do, for general information and thought it isn't exactly fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.68 ( talk) 22:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your comment unsigned. I would urge you to try and add a bit of balance to this article or any of the others regarding Northern Ireland. You'll soon find your edits are not welcome unless they show the British/unionist side in a bad way or they show the nationalist view in a positive light (this includes the IRA). And to think Wikipedia thinks it should be distibuted to schools and the like.
This sentence seems to be the subject of some dispute:
The RUC in response deployed armoured cars with Browning heavy machine guns and killed a nine year old boy in the nationalist Falls Road area of Belfast.
Before I go into any depth, this is what various sources say:
There's probably some more as well, but those adequately demonstrate the points I'm about to make. The RUC used heavy machine guns which were unsuitable for use in a densely populated area, and fired them at the flats. Therefore they take the ultimate responsibility for their actions, seemingly reckless as they were. Did they intend to kill Patrick Rooney? Not for us to say, but to try and fix the sentence in question by say adding the word "accidentally" that would be biased. When the IRA (or any other organisation) make mistakes, do we say "accidentally killed" in this article or any other? Of course not! I've nothing against the sentence being clarified or expanded upon, but to claim it was accidental is incorrect and biased. One Night In Hackney 303 17:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The IRA never claimed to have decommissioned most of its weaponry, the IMC claimed they had. Plus it's all very wishy-washy and speculative, what are "large-scale" armed actions anyway? Unless fertiliser and shovels have been decommissioned, it missed the point somewhat anyway. It's always been minds that needed decommissioning, not weaponry. One Night In Hackney 303 14:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
removed this because it's no longer true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.189.221 ( talk) 00:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
When and where did this conflict first come to be known as "The Troubles", and how did such a mild name come about for such a vicious conflict anyway? 76.123.216.96 ( talk) 06:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Putting the "ulster Loyalists" and the British goverment on the same Combantant sides is historically in accurate. UVF, UDA and others have infact battled with the ex-Royal Ulster Constabalry, Police Service Northern Ireland and The British Army. Please stop changing it back its not historically accurate. If its that nessiary Just add "Ulster Loyalists" in a sepperate combatants box. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL STANCE, I made this change for the sake of historical accuracy. This is the person who keeps reversing my corrections "172.189.19.107". Thank you.
( Paddy ( talk) 16:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC))
But the British goverment claimed uda, uvf and others as terrorist organisations.
( Paddy ( talk) 20:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC))
Right thats true but the Irish nationalists have also had infomation passed on them from RUC and other British forces in order to kill members of Loyalist paramilitaries for Example Johnnny Adair whos where abouts have been told to nationalists in order to carry out assasinations.. so to be fair there is some bad play from all sides.
( Paddy ( talk) 23:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC))
The fact of the matter is I didnt say Adair was the source of the infomation it was a leak from the RUC. Both sides Nationaist and Loyalist have both worked with British forces and fought against them but for the sake of making it clear I have seperated the sides. With saying that the UDA are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda.
To show and example of a time when the British Army has gone against the UVF is the Miami Showband killings were two members of the UVF were convicted of the killing and also were members of the UDR heres a direct statment from the page... "During the Troubles it was a common occurrence to be stopped by the British Army on the roads. The unsuspecting members of the band were taken out of the minibus, and told to line up in a ditch by the side of the road.[2] Some of the men at the checkpoint were British soldiers, from the Ulster Defence Regiment. However, they were also members of an illegal paramilitary organisation, the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)"
IT THEN GOES ON TO SAY.. "Three members of UDR were eventually convicted for their part in the attack. James Somerville, Thomas Crozier and James McDowell all received life sentences".
To also make it clear that Nationalists have worked with the British goverment have you noticed whos the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, its non other then Sinn Feins Martin McGuinness. Lets just leave it as there was unfair play from all sides. ( Paddy ( talk) 04:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC))
There arn't just a "few exceptions" to the so called rule. Loyalist paramilitaries as I have stated before have worked with/ against the British army and RUC, Just as the Nationalists have. Even with these slight "so called" exeptions they are still enemys and any unlawful coporating with the terrorists by the British army is ilegal as stated with the fact they are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda. There is unfare play in both sides and due to the fact they are a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom attempting to place the Ulster Loyalists with the British army under the same side in the infobox because of the views they have previously worked with each other and against, and the fact you stating that they worked together out of your own biast beliefs is a NPOV violation.
( Paddy ( talk) 01:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
Ok, believe me I get the situation, I get were you both are coming from about Loyalist, Nationalist and British beliefs, but all Im wanting is that the Infobox be left as it is with each side seperated for the fact technically there were "3 sides", the article itself can go into the details that need to be addressed about the problems at hand with Loyalism, Nationalism and even Britishism linking and colliding over the decades the troubles in Ireland have had. So can we please all for the sake of creating no NPOV violations and keep this all historically accurate otherwise theres no point of even having a even ballanced story. This is pointless having this endless arguement about "who was right", when it comes down to it the people of Northern Ireland will decide the future regarless of paramillitaries, the British army and this page!
( Paddy ( talk) 01:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
No one won in the troubles lets just hope the future will be bright for Ireland and this waring period be ended (but not fogotten) as I stated before there as good and bad people and we all can agree we can learn from the past whenever its a possitive remembering, or a negitive remembering. I mean this entire depate against me was all started over a infobox I placed, the infobox was placed and edited by others for the sake of showing the differnt divides in the troubles, let the page its self go into the details about the situation. Also Traditional Unionist to let you know and to understand that im not particularly baist about the troubles I am a decendent that comes from a long line from a Protestant, Loyalist, Catholics and even Republicans, I cannot hate my family or there company, I just hope for a bright future for the province and Ireland itself. I only wanted to create a "historical" infobox to this page, for others to understand, lets just avoid a one side story to tell.
( Paddy ( talk) 02:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
Can you please explain when I ever said that? If anything I want the truth, Why is this debate still going on over the infobox?!
( Paddy ( talk) 09:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
Loyalist and Unionist if you havnt noticed have two differnt pages as they ARE TWO DIFFERNT ideologys. Maybe your one sided views with be accepted by some extremist millitant organisation but not here.
( Paddy ( talk) 18:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
I have fixed the box which was added without discussion or consensus. Should OIRA be moved to the British side? ( Sarah777 ( talk) 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
By no means is it reflecting a better prespective. By United Kingdom law Loyalist Paramillitaries are illegal terrorist organisations thus ranking them ENEMYS. Plus putting PIRA, RIRA and even INLA on same sides as Republic of Ireland is incorrect as well, seeing as Republic of Ireland has aswell put all those paramillitaries them as well as Illegal terrorist organisations. Just because the ideologies are simmilar, doesn't mean they are on the same sides. Technically, each of those paramillitaries shouldn't be on the same sides, as there has been cases of loyalist and Republican Fueds.
( Paddy ( talk) 09:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
Well I disagree with the fact you concider RoI the only third side, but to be honnest the whole idea of a box is pointless as you are right there where many sides which changed over the 30 years. Maybe it would be for the best just to remove it all together.
( Paddy ( talk) 15:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
Yeah i noticed this isnt the first time this has happened, and best we all just find a practical sollution to the box. Well what would you suggest be done to it? Maybe just keep the main writing and the causalties, and remove the strength and combatants?
( Paddy ( talk) 20:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
"conflict was caused by the disputed status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom and the domination of the minority nationalist community, and discrimination against them, by the unionist majority." this is a pretty bad analysis of the problem, and surely institutional discrimination should be emphasised or at least mentioned. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/the_troubles_article_01.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.22.123 ( talk) 13:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
From what my relatives tell me about The Troubles, the threat of and carrying out of punishment beatings were significant, and had a huge effect on the people in NI. However I can't find much about it on Wikipedia. There is a sentence in the article. If there is more, can someone direct me to them, or link it to this page. Thanks. -- 81.132.243.176 ( talk) 13:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC) 'Punishment Beatings'? A beating is a beating whatever title you put before it. I think you may be referring to 'Tarring and Feathering'. A woman would have her hair shaved off, then be smeared with Tar and dusted with Feathers. Not nice. As for folks in Ulster being 'hugely effected' by threats of beatings, you underestimate the folks of Ulster, they are no cowards. Johnwrd ( talk) 01:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi everybody, a proposal is being made to ease the current restrictions on questionable sources in the verifiability policy, in response to concerns that an Animal Liberation Front video was being inappropriately excluded from an article. I think editors here might have a useful viewpoint on this proposal. See Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. Tim Vickers ( talk) 21:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have closed this AfD as merge to the Troubles. It was suggested in the discussion that the following sentence should be added here:-
"The area comprising East Tyrone, South Londonderry and North Armagh saw such levels of violence that it became known as the 'murder triangle'."
Would someone who know this article better than I please do that? Thanks. -- Bduke ( talk) 08:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Nothing of the sort. Using the unclear "Ireland" or "Irish" in this article only serves to confuse the reader and should not be done. Until Republic of Ireland is moved from its current location, that term should be used where there is any possibility of confusion. In this article, there's far too much possbility of confusion. One Night In Hackney 303 00:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I am going to add back in the full correct legal and proper names of the two states concerned: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I will also add in my additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, RoI can be used to describe the Irish state. This has no connection with the location of the RoI article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland - That is not relevant - This is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading. For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. If you disagree with my edits, please open a discussion - I suggest you call it Names of States involved in Troubles. If most people disagree with my fairly minor (but important) clarification, then I will leave it at that - the article will continue on with a misleading inaccuracy.
As for the discussion re my being blocked. I think User talk:Traditional unionist was indicating that it was unfair. I agree with him but don't want to get involved in 'personal' bickering. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, any use of Ireland will create confusion in anything related to the Troubles article.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Part of the history of Ireland | ||||||||
Map of Ireland at the present. | ||||||||
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Sovereign state security forces
United Kingdom |
Irish Republicans
Provisional IRA |
Ulster Loyalists | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
British Army (excluding NI regiments)499 Total Dead 3524* [3] |
PIRA293 OIRA29 INLA44 IPLO9 CIRAN/A RIRA2 |
UVF 63 UDA 81 LVF 3 RHC 2 UR N/A |
Apart from the simply incorrect (BHG and ONIH pl note) title of free Ireland used, why are the "civilian" casualties listed under "Sovereign state security forces" column? This would seem to imply the "sovereign British state" was at one with the dead civilians when in fact they actually directly or through their Loyalist agencies murdered most of them? Sarah777 ( talk) 18:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the problem with the infobox here probably lies not so much in the content of the infobox as in the fact that it is being used on this article. {{ Infobox Military Conflict}} may work well elsewhere, but it seems to me that editors here are finding the template to be too rigid a straitjacket to accommodate the circumstances of this conflict in an NPOV fashion. One example of this is how to classify the civilian casualties: Sarah777 sets out one view on that, but others would point out that the IRA also killed a goodly number of civilians. An infobox can't accommodate those differences in perspective.
An article does not have to have an infobox. If it's misleading, or if it's just causing edit wars, then it should be removed. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 21:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The map isn't even that useful really. Political geography may be of some use, but not of primary use. It strikes me that there is almost a bit of conspiricy hunting going on here. Clearly, finding a space for murdered civillians will be tricky, but imperitative to this infobox. One would assume that a column-less row could be added to the bottom? Also, I assume that the source is Lost Lives? If so that needs to be made clear. If not - well, why not? Traditional unionist ( talk) 15:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I have added the full correct legal and proper names of the two states involved in the Troubles: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I have also added in additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, Republic of Ireland can be used to describe the Irish state.
This has no connection with the location of the Republic of Ireland article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland). What is relevant is that this is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading.
For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. Its a relatively common misconception that Republic of Ireland is the name of the Irish state. I hope this fairly minor but important edit is accepted by all. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In case people might be confused about what I was proposing, the follwing is the edit I propose:
"Sovereign state security forces:
What is wrong with the above edit? Why is it contentious? Does any one disagree with its accuracy? Please give reasons if you agree or disagree. If you disagree, you might also set out your reasons why we should not explain what the correct names of the two States are. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The members killed after they left are not accepted. The source cited says 197, and the article must reflect what the source says. The source doesn't include former members, so neither should we. Domer48 ( talk) 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Then the source should be changed. The Palace Gardens Memorial lists these members as murdered as a direct consequence of UDR membership. Happy to leave it as it is until you can find a more accurate source GDD1000 ( talk) 17:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, since you put it like that then I'll leave it. I don't want to POV push. I'm entirely against that concept. All I want to see is a nicely balanced article with no cruft in favour of ANYONE! If we stick to the facts I'm sure we'll get along fine. GDD1000 ( talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed various information pertaining to 1970 which has been added. Firstly it was a very selective addition, seemingly based solely on information designed to make the IRA look bad. Secondly some of the information (first female to die) is disuputed by other sources, including one I have added. Thirdly there was ample commentary added to what the source had said, and in the case of Short Strand made no attempt to explain the circumstances in which people were shot, instead presenting a very biased viewpoint. We do not tend to have such breakdowns by year for any other year, especially not one-sided (and therefore biased) ones, so I do not see why 1970 should be any different, but would welcome discussion about if and in what format the information could be added back, subject to it being unbiased of course. Also I have added back sections pertaining to the background which should not have been arbitrarily removed without discussion. In addition I have removed various tags added without explanation, ones that are not weasel words as far as I can see, and removed various unsourced information. If there are any questions about this please ask them here. Domer48 ( talk) 07:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I changed one instance of the word "victim" which covered 800 dead to simply "dead". I then noticed the word is all over this article like an outbreak of measles. "Victim" is a value-laden weasel unless used in a very specific context - should it be used in this article at all? Sarah777 ( talk) 00:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I find the emphasis of this article to be slightly odd. There is an (unnecessarily) long background/history section, and quite detailed coverage of the "peace process", and even the parades issue, but relatively little on the Troubles themselves! There seems to be a bias towards political developments and issues, rather than on the actual violence (with the exception of the collusion issue(!), which is given significant coverage). Surely this article should focus on the violence and the security response to it. Mooretwin ( talk) 13:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the following sentence, because it doesn't make sense: Their government addressed many of the concerns of the civil rights movement: re-drawing electoral boundaries to make them more representative, giving all citizens the vote in local elections, and transferring the power to allocate public housing to an independent Northern Ireland Housing Executive, for example. To what does "their government" refer? The reforms listed were actually carried out by the Unionist Government before Direct Rule. Perhaps this should be included elsewhere? Mooretwin ( talk) 14:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The introduction of this article states categorically that The Troubles "was a period of conflict ... from the late 1960s until the Belfast Agreement of 10 April 1998". Is this correct? Is there a consensus that the Troubles ended then? Loyalist violence continued after this, including several feuds, and "dissident republican" violence continues today. Mooretwin ( talk) 14:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, here is RS that supplys 8 different dates, the Belfast Agreement isn't even the first one, and taken in tat context, doesn't seem to be the most rational choice. Traditional unionist ( talk) 22:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The P. Process is still ongoing, addressing the causes of conflict. Nationlists were not the cause of the conflict stop pushing your bias onto the article. -- Domer48 'fenian' 07:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(de-in) To decide when the Troubles ended you first need to ask: what were the Troubles? If you just take the simplistic view that it was a shooting war between the IRA and the British security forces then Good Friday was not the end because the IRA was not a party to that, but then again 5 October or 12 August are not the right starting dates either because the IRA was not involved in them either. No, clearly the Troubles embraces the wider issues of relations between the community and the police and army, and between the two communities. Are they defined solely by violence and death? If so, then the Omagh bombing itself would be the end date, since that was the last major act of (lethal) violence, but that would hardly be considered appropriate. If not, then they must include things like Drumcree and Holy Cross, which continued after 1998. Is the Peace Process part of the Troubles? Clearly it is, but the Peace Process didn't end with the Good Friday Agreement; that was the climax, but the agreement still needed to be implemented.
I would suggest that an appropriate end date is one year ago today, 31 July 2007, the formal end of
Operation Banner. Even from an IRA point of view this makes sense, since it represents the achievement of one of their key demands: the withdrawal of British troops to barracks. Having said that, the period 1998 - 2007 should be given its appropriate weight, which is small in relation to the rest of the article. A catalogue of elections or UUC meetings would not be needed. Allegations of IRA involvement in the Northern Bank robbery would be relevant, since it relates to alleged gearing up for a military campaign, but allegations of IRA invovement in the killing of Robert McCartney would not. The St. Andrews Agreement and the formation of the current Executive are obviously important milestones in the ending of the Troubles. So why not have a short section to deal with all that?
Scolaire (
talk) 10:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Edit summary was "rv, RUC British? RIR British? UDR British? Probably were?"
Home Office police force and two British Army Regiments, so yes, British. Traditional unionist ( talk) 17:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This section begins:
Dispute? Since nobody fired a starter's gun and said "the Troubles are on!", various dates are put forward as the beginning; that's hardly a dispute! Some suggested starting dates are (in chronological order):
For the 5 October 1968 date, both sides can be and are blamed - the "illegal" marchers, the "indisciplined" RUC; for the 12 August 1969 date, ditto. The opening sentence is wrong on all counts IMO. Can we not reword the whole paragraph just to say: "these things happened, by the end of it the Troubles were well and truly on"? Scolaire ( talk) 20:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I added some background cites as requested in the article. I think the main thing at this point is to tighten up what we have, then look for balance. I also modified some language regarding the Orange Order. I hope it flows better. Yachtsman1 ( talk) 02:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice work again, Yachtsman. I hate to say this after you've done so much hard work, but I've actually been wondering if we shouldn't radically reduce those sections? They're far more a history of NI/Ireland than a background to the Troubles. GDD1000 attempted this a few months ago but he went at it, shall we say, somewhat recklessly and the result was a blanket revert. Scolaire ( talk) 05:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The article needs to highlight the backlash on Northern Irish society during the Troubles. For instance, the kids throwing rocks and bottles in the streets, the numerous women left to raise children on their own while their husbands were in prison, the constant military presence, checkpoints, roadblocks, bomb alerts, the lack of nightlife, pubs fortified, searches to go shopping in the city centre, the intimidation, fear of forming friendships with someone of a different religion, the stress and anxiety of parents whenever their kids went outside, the atmosphere of violent murals, etc. These things need to be mentioned.-- jeanne ( talk) 13:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This section states that The Troubles were caused by three factors:
Could someone explain the difference between 2 and 3. This is the same factor, surely? Mooretwin ( talk) 09:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"British rule" is a more common phrase, and is not POV, and I'd agree that it wasn't only Catholics who opposed British Rule. I could add additional sources if Editors feel it is nessary?-- Domer48 'fenian' 09:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Mooretwin for the suggestions. I would just point out though that its not a barter situation either or if you know what I mean? I have no problem with it kept it in quotation marks, though I don't see the point. Please remove catholic as we all know its incorrect, if you need a reference please let me know thanks. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I ask again - what is the difference between 2 and 3 above. I see no difference and either 2 or 3 ought to go, in my view. Mooretwin ( talk) 09:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
"British rule" is a more common phrase, and I could add additional sources if Editors feel it is nessary? On the edit summary "includes POV language" could you explain what this means? Just because you don't agree with it dose not make it POV. I'll like editors to explain what their understanding of POV is. -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, understanding and based on my reading it was more than just a banner slogan. I don't subscribe to the notion of divided communities in conflict with each other, and the British Government as some sort of honest broker trying to keep the two sides apart. I’m still interested in the use of POV, and what editors understanding is of the circumstances for using it. -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The fair use rational for this image is "To illustrate a terrorist-guerrilla action which is the subject of the article. Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the subject of this article and how the event depicted was very historically significant to the general public."
The first thing I'd say is that this article is not about terrorist-guerrilla actions per se it is much broader. In what way dose the image add "significantly to the article"? It also fails our fair use rational. -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Which images?. Images which aren't fair use for the purposes of this policy "non-free content" means all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license. There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article. Such material may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met.-- Domer48 'fenian' 21:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Would the images omission be detrimental, no I don't think it would. Now we are talking here about Non-free content and not about images which aren't fair use, they are public domain.-- Domer48 'fenian' 22:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Blowdart for your comment. Could we possibly deal with one issue at a time please and address the Non-free content first? You still have not addressed the issues I've raised above, for example would the images omission be detrimental? Dose the image comply with the Non-free content policy? Thanks, -- Domer48 'fenian' 22:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by "underscoring the nature of that attack" and you still have not address the Fair Use rational. Thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 23:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
this article is incredibly biased against the british —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.114 ( talk) 00:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
An edit to the intro section added; "There is significant disagreement regarding the terminology for this period of conflict, as some seek to reduce the validity of some of the participants by referring to it as 'troubles' rather than a war."
The reference given for this was the Report Of The Consultative Group on the Past (page 51). What the report stated was, "A potentially contentious issue for the Group has been the terminology used to describe the past – was it the ‘Troubles’, the ‘Conflict’ or the ‘War’? While acknowledging that there are many different interpretations of the past and what it represented, for the purposes of this Report the Group has chosen to use the phrase ‘the conflict in and about Northern Ireland’4 or simply ‘the conflict’. This is a pragmatic choice, which is not intended to reflect any particular historical or legal interpretation." This doesn't at all sound like it supports what was added above, so I removed it. Alastairward ( talk) 19:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
The reference provided does not source the claim. Firstly I doubt the reference due to the claim that it is sourced by page 472, when the book has exactly 472 pages. As different authors date the Troubles from anywhere from 1966 onwards (obviously Coogan included), the title of the book using 1966 does not mean that "the term was used pre-1968 to describe the ongoing political situation in Northern Ireland". I personally prefer the previous lead which has been changed for some reason, it used to read "The duration of the Troubles is conventionally dated from the late 1960s to the late 1990s" and I have restored it as it avoids setting any particular date for the start. O Fenian ( talk) 20:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Cain uses Britain in his table, but the wikipedia transcription has changed this to England. Anyone got any idea why? I'm loath to change the introductory paragraph back whilst the table says England; but if the reference for the table is Cain as indicated then why is England used in the table? -- Blowdart | talk 21:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit which claims the Troubles were an armed conflict, as this is a misleading over-simplification of events. The Troubles included armed conflict, but the conflict was much more than that. Some academics date the start of the Troubles to the formation of NICRA, when there was no armed conflict going on. Many others to the Battle of the Bogside and associated riots, while there were sporadic shots fired it was hardly an "armed conflict". The Troubles was more about the conflict between the two communities on various levels, including armed conflict. To describe it as just an "armed conflict" displays an ignorance of what they were really about. O Fenian ( talk) 11:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Domer48 and BigDunc are combining to delete "ethno-" from the phrase "ethno-political conflict", giving their personal viewpoints as justification. Consensus should be sought for this change of stable text, so I have reverted them. Let them put their case here. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Blowdart first I did not breech any sanctions, provide diff's to support the accusation or strike the comments. Support your contension that wikipedia's definition of an Ethnic group it seems to fit well. Thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 10:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
It was not a ethnic conflict, it was political. It was not even a religious conflict! As O Fenian has correctly pointed out, it's unsourced, and not even in the article. If it's not in the article, why is it in the WP:LEAD ?
I'd like to retract my comment on the use of the references on the British Isles page. I haven't had a close look at the talk page for a while and should have done when I made my statement saying it was setting a precedent. The editors involved in the discussion seem to be coming to some kind of consensus on the use of the refs without mention of commentators. Titch Tucker ( talk) 14:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Could some editor point me to the sentence in any of the sources provided that states that it was an ethnic conflict thanks. BigDunc Talk 21:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I think it's a little silly to continue to argue with citations provided by Blowdart. While I agree with the sentiment that the Troubles had nothing to do with religion, or ethnicity, I'm not going to argue with experts and citations. I suggest that unless there are references to dispute the citations stating the Troubles were an ethnic conflict, that we let it go and move on. Wikipedia is not about truth and light - it's an encyclopedia and relies on citations and references and reliable sources. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Again, if the subject were addressed in the article, we would know what "definition of ethnic" is being used and in what context. At present we just don't know. If we don't know, why is it in the Lead, and why is it not "fleshed out" in the article.The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic.
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should be established in the first sentence of the lead.-- Domer48 'fenian' 10:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi Blowdart, would you agree that material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic. Is it your view that the term is able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. The "pissing match" you described is actually called WP:NPOV, which says all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, here is an interesting part of a study on writing style, meta:Wiki_is_not_paper#Timeliness_and_ease_of_editing ~ R. T. G 23:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
As the long chronological section in The Troubles is duplicated in Chronology of the Northern Ireland Troubles should the material here be deleted as was done in the Great Irish Famine article? In that article Domer and Rockpuppet cogently argued that it was imperative that such duplications in articles on Irish history be avoided. Does the same logic apply here? Colin4C ( talk) 09:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I see editors are still taking it upon themselves to extend the Troubles by ten years. We do not trailblaze, unless sources are claiming the Troubles are still ongoing the 2009 deaths should not be in this article, it is factually incorrect. O Fenian ( talk) 20:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, it is interesting to note that both Gordon Brown and Gerry Adams - responding to Saturday's murders - referred to "attacks on the peace process", thus implying that the Troubles are not, in fact, over (since - logically, if the peace process is still ongoing, it has not ended: therefore we do not yet have peace, and so the Troubles are not over). Mooretwin ( talk) 12:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Too much emphasis on Security Forces misdeeds. The main driver of the conflict, once it had started (or restarted) in 1969, was the PIRA campaign to use violence to unite NI with the South. Does anyone disagree with this statement? If not, then the article should reflect that. The main activity of the security forces was trying to suppress the violence, but again this is poorly reflected in the article. (If you disagree, please look at the (approximate) figures - 20,000 - 30,000 police and troops over 30 years kill 368 people i.e. 1 per 2000 man-years of security force time).
I have made a couple of minor changes. I suggest that everyone involved with editing the article has a think about the overall balance. We should be aiming for content and wording that reflects the facts. Of course, the article should be neutral about e.g. whether the PIRA and wider Irish Republican aims were justified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRPCunningham ( talk • contribs) 20:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The Provisional IRA (or "Provos", as they became known), formed in early 1970, soon established itself as more aggressive and militant in responding to attacks on the nationalist community. It gained much support in the nationalist ghettos in the early 1970s as their "defenders". Despite the increasingly reformist and Marxist politics of the Official IRA, they began their own armed campaign in reaction to the ongoing violence. From 1970 onwards, both the Provisionals and Officials engaged in armed confrontations with the British Army.
The Provisional IRA (or "Provos", as they became known), formed in early 1970, soon established itself as more aggressive and militant than the Official IRA. It gained much support in the nationalist ghettos in the early 1970s as their "defenders". Despite the increasingly reformist and Marxist politics of the Official IRA, they began their own armed campaign in reaction to the ongoing violence. From 1970 onwards, both the Provisionals and Officials engaged in armed confrontations with the British Army.
O Fenian, IMO a casual reader (of what is, after all, a rather long article) could interpret the statement as saying that all IRA activity was defensive. It needs rephrased. You are welcome to have a first go at rephrasing, otherwise I will try some wording. But you should not just revert. Agreed? PRPCunningham ( talk) 15:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Domer48, I am not suggesting that my opinions be used as the source of material in the article. Rather, my opinion is that the article is unbalanced and the wording is insufficiently neutral. With regards to this, my opinion needs to be accounted for, as well as the opinions of other editors. I will quotes sources for any new material that I might add to the article.
O Fenian, We are looking for wording that everybody can agree on - that is correct, neutral, balanced etc. The fact that you think the wording is fine is insufficient to establish that everybody thinks it fine. We need to find wording that both you and I can agree is acceptable.
Everyone, Besides the questions of balance etc, the article is too long (in my opinion!). What do you think? Peter Cunningham PRPCunningham ( talk) 07:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Jeanne, I agree that the Troubles are significant. The length of the article may well be suitable for an Irish/British encyclopedia. But maybe a world-wide encyclopedia such as Wikipedia would be better served by a shorter article. Otherwise, you have the danger that readers skip over parts of the article. Hence, I would suggest that, in line with suggestions made in the article itself, the material be split into several, shorter articles.
O Fenian, I know that you think that the sentence is OK. The point is that I do not. We should aim for wording that suits everyone, unless you wish to claim a privileged position. If, of course, you manage to show that almost everyone else, from all points of view, thinks that the wording is OK, then I could accept that mine is a lone opinion. However, I do not think this is the case. Looking at the wider context, the sentence is in a section entitled "Violence peaks and Stormont collapses", whose first paragraph is "The years 1970–1972 saw an explosion of political violence in Northern Ireland, peaking in 1972, when nearly 500 people lost their lives." As such, the sentence could be interpreted as suggesting that all the IRA activity in this period was defensive (while, as the article says, the activity included setting off 1300 bombs, something which is not really defensive activity).
Everyone, I would like to restate my earlier point that the article does not reflect the fact that the predominant activity of the security forces was trying to prevent acts of violence (by means of patrols, checkpoints etc, etc), while the predominant activity of the paramilitaries was trying to commit acts of violence. This may be obvious to a UK/Irish audience, but not to a world-wide audience, so I would suggest that the article states this, in one form or the other. I am happy to dig up references to support this point, but, if I do so, I would be grateful if I could have some assurances that my changes to the article will not be immediately reverted. Please note that ALL of my changes to the article have been reverted. This suggests, in itself, that there is a lack of balance in the overall editing of the article.
Peter
PRPCunningham (
talk) 13:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
O Fenian you have more than addressed this issue. -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have been looking at the help material. The second paragraph of Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines reads "Policies and guidelines describe standards that have community consensus, and indeed consensus is itself a core policy and philosophy. Those who adhere to neutral point of view, are civil to and assume good faith in others, seek consensus in discussions, and work towards the goal of creating an increasingly better written and more comprehensive encyclopedia should find a very welcoming environment." Consensus is a core policy. We need to seek consensus about acceptable wording, placement etc for the sentence in question. It is not sufficient for you to state that you think the wording and placement are acceptable. It needs also to be acceptable to me (assuming mine is not an lone or crazed point of view). The sentence in question may well refer to defensive actions, but it is in a section describing 1970-72 and it follows earlier paragraphs that deal with the period 1970-72. As such, I believe it could suggest to a casual reader that the PIRA activity during the peak of the violence was essentially defensive (while, as the article states, the PIRA activity included setting of 1300 bombs) We need to find wording acceptable to all parties. If you restate the fact that you think the wording acceptable, you are missing the point about seeking consensus (and leave open the possibility of a sterile cycle of changes and reverts. So, to reduce the matter to a direct question - do you agree we need to seek consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRPCunningham ( talk • contribs) 08:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
If the article states that the IRA was acting defensively in 1969 (based on the PIRA statements), then it should also state that the security forces were acting to prevent violence (based on Hansard, the courts etc, etc). PRPCunningham ( talk) 20:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I've amended the following inaccurate statement in the "Violence peaks and Stormont collapses" section:
By 1972, the Provisional IRA had killed more than 100 soldiers, wounded 500 more and carried out 1,300 bombings
I've checked the Sutton index and this is untrue. My count is that, excluding own goals, by 1972, PIRA had killed "only" 39 soldiers (excluding UDR), 33 civilians, 13 police and 5 UDR. The sentence is therefore wrong, and omits to mention of civilian deaths, which is notable and relevant. How can we improve this? Mooretwin ( talk) 20:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC at the Ulster Defence Regiment article. Unfortunately, it is only attracting the usual suspects, and we really need some fresh views. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Disruption by sock of banned User:HarveyCarter |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
There was no discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland. People could not get jobs due to the recession. ( 2A00:23C4:6384:600:30E6:B0B6:F10E:9F52 ( talk) 12:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC))
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Number of fatally wounded changed from 14 to 13. The 14th died 4 1/2 months later, with the wounds he recieved possibly contributing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.67.186 ( talk) 10:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Who was it that edited and destroyed the conflict box I made? Please restore it. There was nothing wrong with it in the first place!! - Ireland4Ever
This needs work. The nature of such violence and the relations of the various groups and their motives and tactics needs to be charted in detail. Though violence in whatever form it takes is terrible, there is a difference between defensive military activity and knowingly targeting innocent civilians e.g. the "Real" IRA's killings at Omagh, or Bloody Sunday. -- 20 October 2002 user:DanKeshet
in Nationalist or Republican political parties, 2/3 through the article, the phrase "insight into the thinking of" is in quotes, but the passive voice of described avoids attributing the quote, which is fairly significant. Although i know very little of Irish politics, i did a little googling and i found a transcript in which the phrase is used by Fraser Agnew. Could this be the source of this quote? If noone objects, i'll attribute it to him in the article. Foobaz· ✐ 07:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reading this paragraph seems to me that someone does not have a clear idea of who the Nationalist where, and who the Unionist were. As of 9/14/07 it appears switched in all context. If someone else would like to verify and change this, please do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.74.70 ( talk) 01:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I note that this article does not use the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" once throughout the entire article. Surely this is necessary for an article on the NI troubles! -- 25 April 2005 143.117.143.42
In regards to referring to the IRA as a 'terrorist' organization, i think the complexity of the situation and the specific connotation applied to the term as we know it today needs to be taken into account. Certainly the IRA has engaged in dubious and illegal, not to mention immoral behavior. However, with terrorism being associated with the actions of islamo-fascists, it is imperative to recognize the Troubles and its further implications as a different animal. Terrorist aspects of the Irish struggle should not undermine the fundamental difference in the political and social history of the country. Certainly there is more legitimacy in Irish resistance than in Islamic terrorism aimed at destroying Israel and the Western world as we know it -- 16 December 2005 69.161.36.180
In many places in Ireland, especially parts of the Six Counties, the Provos, or PIRA are not considered to be terrorists: they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of a country that was oppressed by the English for several hundred years, a land which Britain still refuses to grant its freedom. Ireland should be free, the whole of it, not just a part. -- 2 March 2006 68.58.116.87
One must consider that Northan Ireland has a Unionist majority"In the 2001 census, 45.5% of the Northern Irish population were Protestant, (Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist and other Protestant denominations), and 40.3% of the population were Roman Catholic. 13.9% of the population did not specify a religion. While a plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themelves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither, 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland", that is why partition was carried out originally. If the Northan Irish had wished to join the the Republic of Ireland they had the oppertunity in the 1920's via the will of an elected body (see Irish Free State), shurly for a minority group to try and overturn the view of the majorty by means of violent acts must make them terrorists.( 81.159.56.4 16:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)).
There was no vote,the partion came about through negotiations involving Michael Collins and British representatives,this is what led to the Irish Civil War.It is also well known that for generations many members of the Catholic communities were put into housing that did not entitle then to a vote.This was mostly evident in Derry wher there was a majority of Catholics but unionists were in power.This is surely worse than any percieved terrorism,of which there are several unionist and loyalist groups also, and is ,in fact, similar to a violent dictatorship such as Mugabe in Zimbabwe.
Also the word terrorism was thought up by the Americans before an after the World Trade Centre attacks and was adopted by certain people in Northern Ireland as a biased term which is an extreme POV.This term is not used for one section but is for the other.Either both or none.Also there seems to be no mention of the over spill of violence into the Republic which I feel is an integral part of the story that needs to be told,why is there not much,if any, mention of the dublin monaghan bombings?
Lapsed Pacifist has been here again. Conributed much POV, which needs to be drastically cleaned up. Some examples:
"and the anger felt by the Irish because of the occupation and genocide by the British. (It was only in the last 2 years that Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, made a formal apology on behalf of the United Kingdom for the treatment of the Irish people during the preceeding 400 years.)"
"Except for unionists, all other segments argued that the Northern Ireland of the 1960s needed change"
"while the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the British army and loyalists stepped up their violence to oppose it."
"when the anti-Catholic Orange Order insist on parading through Catholic neighbourhoods"
"the slowness of others has led to Sinn Féin witholding its support fom the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the time being"
-- Jonto 22:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree totally. I had not seen those edits bt they are so POV it beggars belief. We are going to have to keep an eye on LP's edits more thoroughly and cull that sort of tone. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 22:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm surprised, Jtd, that you did'nt see fit to check whether or not I actually made those edits. Three to five look factual, I don't see the problem with them. The first definitely does'nt look like anything I've ever written, and I'm also doubtful about the second. But, by all means, keep an eye on my edits. Just make sure they're mine. -- Lapsed Pacifist 23:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I've tweaked the collusion section slightly for tone; it read a little like editorialising and generalisation of the parties involved. Evilteuf 14:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
It is claimed that "many British commentators" use the term "the Irish Problem". Perhaps this comment should be deleted until someone provides evidence of this use in recent history. If "many" turns out to be relatively few, then the claim should be clarified in this respect, and then it would become a rather meaningless statement not worthy to be in the article anyway. -- 4 August 2005 219.78.68.166
I deleted this claim. I've not heard it used in 10 or 20 years, and the whole remark seemed to add little. -- Stevelinton 20:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I didn't read this close enough, but there seems to be a shocking omission of historical context: "What is clear is that its origins lie in the century-long debate over whether Ireland, or part of Ireland, should be part of the United Kingdom"
A single century?!?! Methinks it's a bit older than that! The priming of the pump is a couple of centuries older than that. Some reference must be made to the Irish Plantations. Without the scottish settlements there would of been no controversy post WWI.
Otherwise much credit to the authours for a balanced and short article that links to more meaty articles. -- 9 August 2005 69.23.220.138
The Irish did NOT invite the normans, that was the king of Leinster. Thats like saying the English invited the nazis into England because the Duke of York asked adolf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.122.105.151 ( talk) 22:27, 2 March 2007
one irish person does not make it"the Irish" User:Shamboss 17:23,23 january 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shambosse ( talk • contribs)
Surely there are some more neutral and wide-ranging academic/historical studies that could be listed? "Steaknife" is interesting, but is journalism, not history and covers only a tiny fraction of the topic. Stevelinton 20:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I've been going through the MoD Freedom of Information releases, and have found some documents that might be useful to fleshing this article, or related ones, out. I'll just link them here in case they're of help - do we have an Army in Northern Ireland page? Shimgray | talk | 15:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
More needs to be said about modern times, at least from 2000 onwards. The continuation of this "war", carried out in a 1st world country, which has very high standards of education, health, freedom, not to mention a booming economy, and of course the tight checks and measures on British rule and interference, should be taken into account. Armed struggle may be justifiable in 3rd world countries where there is REAL oppression, but in this case, the agitators (the IRA) should be held accountable for the hell they have put the Irish people through for their own selfish political and financial gain. -- 2 December 2005 210.211.80.5
I would dispute the accuracy of that claim. Provisional Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA involved themselves in the Northern Ireland conflict on explicit republican grounds. Provisional Sinn Fein Splits from Sinn Fein was a rejection of Marxist politics on the grounds that it was alienating traditional supporters of the republican movement, the latter part and marxist group of the party became known as Offical Sinn Fein -- 27 December 2005 83.70.28.240
seemed POV (terms like 'carnage'). had read:"A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of provisional IRA bombs." Mike McGregor (Can) 19:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to Ulster, as sectarian tension is not confined to the six counties. I used the religious rather than the political division, as the trouble is older than the current political divisions. -- Lapsed Pacifist 10:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
This article is dreadful considering its importance in many histories (Irish, British, colonial etc). Why all the gaps in information and the history? -- max rspct leave a message 15:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, and if its not done, people will just come on and write crap until its changed. Can I propose a reorganisation along these lines:
-The Civil Rights campaign and its breakdown into violence. -The subsequent communal violence in derry/londonderry and belfast. -The deployment of the British army, the start of the PIRA campaign in earnest (1971). The loyalists response. -Internment and Bloody Sunday - the dissafecti9on of the nationalist community -The fall of Stormont and introduction of Direct Rule -Sunningdale Agreement and the Ulster Workers Council Strike -The Prison issue and Hunger Strikes -The IRA's "long war" late 1970s to early 1990s (main article at PIRA page). -Anglo Irish Agreement 1985 -Loyalist upsurge in killings c. 1986-1994 -Ceasefires 1994 -Agreement 1998
-Casualty breakdown (leave as now) -motivations (as now) -current status, political and security
Any comments? -- Jdorney 17:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Sounds okay. Read the article and whilst I found some parts really good, not least the fact it provided what felt like a thorough but brief NPOV summary, it certainly could do with more material in places. Or at the least not the feel to be a list of other pages. Surely there was some sort of historical narrative into which the key events can be placed. I don't know enough to write it as I came to the page to learn it. Panlane -- 82.38.227.22 20:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I've written most of what I talked about above. Editors are welcome to comment/change as they see fit. -- Jdorney 17:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Added detail about Ulster Resistance, Force Research Unit and "Death on the Rock"- these werent appearing yet omitting them leaves the section with a POV/one side of the story kind of feel. Hope it helps. Fluffy999 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Any objection to replacing one of the 2 Gerry Adams pictures with a picture of someone else? John Hume for example, or even David Trimble. Its not a POV thing, just that Hume perhaps played a big role in the ceasefires etc. Theres also no image of Ian Paisley, who is also a major contributor to events throughout the period. Fluffy999 00:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes the images are definately low quality. Dont remember the program- afaik Paisley always refused to appear in images with Adams.
First paragraph- "although the conflict does not qualify as a war in any legal sense." Seems POVish. Over at War its stated: "the term "war" is restricted by legal definition to those conflicts where one or both belligerents have formally declared war"
There has at least been a few declarations of "war". Two that spring to mind are the UVF in 1966, and the PIRA's fairly constant insistance it was at "war". The War article also makes the case that there are reasons why wars arent strictly declared- so a war between opposing sides can be waged but remained publicly undeclared for various reasons.
I say its POVish because the british government made the "Criminalisation" of the PIRA an objective of their part in the conflict. So the first paragraph frames the article from the outset with their POV.
The point that was trying to be made could be that the combatents werent strictly speaking standing armies with uniforms, advanced military hardware etc. I prefer the low intensity conflict definition. Fluffy999 10:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need such a long and slightly confusing background section? The history of Ireland and of Ulster is covered in great detail elsewhere. Isn't it better to concentrate on the immediate roots of the troubles, ie since 1912 or so? Other wise people will keep adding details on things going back as far as the Nine Years War, the Plantation of Ulster, the 1641 rebellion, the Cromwellian conquest, the sige of Derry, the battle of the Boyne etc etc etc. Apart from anything else, it is important to keep the article to managable length. Jdorney 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Having clarified this passage, I'm more convinced than ever that it should be cut out entirely and the relevant links given for the main articles. A paragraph can't hope to cover four hundred years of Irish history, while still explaining it properly. Besides, the 1790s etc are not directly relevant to the content of this article. Any comments? Jdorney 16:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I feel the latter definition distorts the entire conflict claiming it to be religious. The former is the original dynamic and as such is inherently political; the latter and all others are merely additions to that conflict. Can anybody here show how the conflict is religious as opposed to religion being used to justify the conquerers keeping the power? I have yet to meet a nationalist who kills somebody because of their religion. How, pray tell, are people killing each other about a God rather than about controlling power here? Please, those using the labels "Catholic" and "Protestant" here, justify why they are better labels than native/nationalist and settler/unionist, both of which are political labels. El Gringo 02:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Catholic and Protestant is also a political term set in its own time and context. From roughly 1603, when the English first established control over all of Ireland, until the 1820s, the main criterion for belonging to the dominant group in the state was not ethnic origin, but religious conformity. The Protestant Ascendancy meant just that, it was a ruling group of Church of Ireland members. There is no contradiction between highlighting the importance of religion and argueing that hte conflict was always about power. Religion itself was about power.
Now it is true that this was also originally mainly a division between settler and native, but it was never execlusively so. Moreover, by the 1790s it makes no sense to talk about "settlers and natives", all concerned were natives, going back 100 years at least. What's more they didn't describe themselves as British or Irish, as they do now, they used the terms Catholic, Protestant (meaning CoI) and dissenter (meaning Protestants who did not conform to the state church -including presbyterians).
Furthermore, it is not true to say that all Catholics are descended from Gaelic Irish people and that no Protestants are. A quick survey of names in NI and indeed the rest of Ireland, will reveal otherwise. It is true that religion in itself is not currently the major issue in the conflict, but the communal division is marked by religious criteria and not by ethnic ones (ie language, descent etc). For modern divisions, you can use the terms nationalist and unionist, but to suggest that the terms Catholic and Protestant are irrelevant is not accurate.
Jdorney 12:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Native against invader is more accurate,the fact that many protestants were involved in the struggle for emancipation from the British,Wolfetone being one of the more famous examples,it is incorrect to say it is a Catholic versus Protestant struggle.
Looking for the article "Northern Ireland conflict", I found that there was no such thing, and consequently created it, as a redirect to this page. Now I wonder if this was right, i.e. if "Northern Ireland conflict" and "The Troubles" are synonymous terms, or whether "The Troubles" are just part of the Northern Ireland conflict; in the latter case, Northern Ireland conflict would have to be made into a page of its own right, I assume.-- Robin.rueth 13:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, one and the same thing. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
"The roots of the Troubles lie in the failure of Northern Ireland to integrate the Catholic/nationalist population within its borders into its state."
Is this not just stating the obvious? What this sentence means is that, for whatever reason, a significant portion of nationalists in Northern Ireland never accepted the legitimacy of the state, leading in the end to political conflict. It is not a commentary on this fact, or a judgement, or apportioning blame, so I don't see why it would need a citation. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Something I have noticed in the article is that it states that once the 1994 ceasefires where declared it was the effective end to the troubles. It does make mention to limited violence following this ceasefire however this completely ignores the end of the ceasefire in February 1996 with the Canary Wharf bombings and the other attacks which lead to the return to complete violence by the IRA and other paramilitaries. I feel the article should reflect the fact that peace was not truly declared in Northern Ireland until the 1998 ceasefire. Butch-cassidy 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There was an edit by IP 216.194.4.244, adding a new figure for the numbers of casualties in the intro; the edit looks a little clumsy to me (and certainly doesn't read very well), and needs looking at. I don't know enough on the subject to correct (don't even remember why I stumbled across the page!). Given that the casualty figures also appear later in the article in the tables, there needs to be some consistency.
In the meantime, I'm about to remove a bit of text from the article around said tables, since the sentences "Most of those killed were civilians or members of the security forces, with smaller groups of victims identified with republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. It is often disputed whether some civilians were members of paramilitary organisations due to their secretive nature." appear in both the Responsibility and the Status sections. I'm leaving the one in the Status section, since that seems more appropriate. Carre 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
While much has been made of the situation in later years of the 20th century,it should be remembered this conflict is comprised of betrayals by both sides. Religion has been and will always be the dividing factor in Ireland, North and South. The Unitied Irishmen were betrayed by the Catholics at the behest of the church, the church was bribed with the right to train priests in Ireland. A hundred years earlier a protestant was hired by the Pope to kill the King and take control because Irish priests were threatening his control.
This is where the fallacy lies in Irish history both protestants and Catholics did not want British rule in the 18th,19th and early 20th century.This changed with the referendum after WW1. The northern Irish Protestant developed a siege mentality after the free state passed a series of extremely Draconian Laws which curtailed the Protestant's right to work and live in the free state.
The TROUBLES started over not a percieved injustice to Catholics but an injustice which effected both working class groups equally. The problem is that valid points were subsumed by a religious intolerance,(propagated by both religions)and therefore neither protestant or catholic can hold his head up and look innocent.
While many are looking forward, all I have seen in Northern Ireland is a hardening of the tribalism in the last few years. Before anyone asks I have lived here for over 40 years, I was a child when Bloody Sunday happened and I lament this situation.
The only way forward is the intergration of our schools but this is being fought tooth and claw by the Catholic church and this with the political climate here going to both extremes does not bode well for the future. This has not ended, maybe I am wrong (hopefully) but in all likelihood this is a lull in the problem.
Jdorney 12:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else feel that we need to ditch, or at least radically cut, the background section? its far too long and confusing for the general reader right now. Perhaps it should be moved to a different article? Jdorney 20:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Can someone fill in the releavant information in the infobox? Exiledone 17:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Exiledone 19:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Irish Republican Army, Irish National Liberation Army | British Army, Royal Ulster Constabulary | Various Loyalist paramilitary groups | ||||||
Commanders and leaders | ||||||||
IRA Army Council | Various | Various, including CLMC, UAC and ULCCC | ||||||
Strength | ||||||||
750 active IRA members in the 1980s, INLA unknown | Approximately 17,000 British Army presonnel at peak, 7,000 RUC personnel at peak | Unknown | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
Total of 394 republican paramilitaries | Total of 1,112 British security personnel | Total of 151 loyalist paramilitaries | ||||||
1857 civilians |
Stu, as you know an infobox on this subject is going to be difficult to manage due to the sensitivity of the subject and the complex nature. However, that infobox is a pretty good stab at one.-- Vintagekits 13:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Republican Paramilitaries: Provisional IRA Primarily Official IRA until 1973 Irish National Liberation Army |
Security Forces: British Army Royal Ulster Constabulary Ulster Defence Regiment Other Security Forces |
Loyalist Paramilitaries: Ulster Volunteer Force Ulster Defence Association | ||||||
Commanders and leaders | ||||||||
IRA Army Council | Various | Various including ULCCC and CLMC | ||||||
Strength | ||||||||
Provisional IRA:Peak strength c.1,500, current strength c.300 Official IRA:Peak strength unkown INLA:Peak strength unknown, current strength c.30 |
British Army:c.11,000 RUC:8,500 (1990's) UDR:2,440 (1970) |
UVF: c.1,000 (1970's), current strength ?00 UDA c.20,000 (1970) current strength ?00 | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
Republican Paramilitaries 394 Security Forces 1,123 Loyalist Paramilitaries 151 Civilians 1,855 50,000 of any wounded |
I've taken this out; it was vague, semi-coherent, and contained no actual content beyond a vague implication that torture was in a training manual. If you want to say this, say it, and discuss the allegations appropriately; the section as it stood, though, meandered around the point and was no use to anyone. "Someone says that this book, which we're claiming was a standard handbook, quoted someone else, who had in the past talked about using torture". Really, that's what it boiled down to.
There is useful material that can be written on the military theory of the British Army's role in the troubles - it is, after all, a rare and thus well-studied example of how a Western power has had to deal with this kind of thing "at home" - but that section wasn't it; it was just a vague unsourced bundle of implication, which did not help the reader in the slightest. Shimgray | talk | 18:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering why the term "The Troubles" had the Irish equivalent in brackets in the opening paragraph. Is it Wikipedia's intention to teach people Gaelic, or is there genuine usage of the phrase in Irish?
Taken to the extreme, to help illustrate my point: should we also include the translation of Indoor cycling and Internal decapitation? Should the Ulster Lallans be included too? -- Mal 07:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the fact that this article is about the troubles in Ireland, and that in Ireland it is commonly known under the Irish Gaelic name, it seems appropriate to have the Irish name there. Fionnlaoch ( talk) 13:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Further to the numerous discussions, largely on Wikipedia talk:Irish Wikipedians' notice board, a proposal has been made attempt to neutrally categorise individuals imprisoned during The Troubles. Your comments are welcomed at:
Thanks. Rockpocke t 00:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
"In response to this campaign and the perceived erosion of both the British character and unionist domination of Northern Ireland, loyalist paramilitaries such as the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defence Association (UDA) launched their own campaigns against the nationalist population".
this statement is totally inaccurate, the UDA campaign was launched in 1966 in response to the civil rights association. 3 years before the Troubles officially began. It could be argued that the split in the IRA was in response to this sectarian murder campaign by loyalists and the perceived need by the bationalist communities to defend themselves-- MarkyMarkDCU 15:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge there was never a single casualty outside England. As a matter of policy, the Provos did not attack targets in Scotland or Wales. There was the single attack in the early 80s in the Shetland Islands when the Queen was opening a gas terminal, but there weren't any casualties. It's probably better as England to emphasise the location of the casualties, but I'm open to discussion. One Night In Hackney 303 20:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with using England rather than the UK. Although the IRA may not have actively targeted other parts of the UK in a military sense, the "ethno-polictical conflict" most certainly was (and is) present in Scotland. The sectarianism in Glasgow, for example, was closely linked, often directly, to the troubles. Regardless, I think it's unhelpful to use England when the UK adequately and sufficiently precisely describes the situation, since England and the UK are confused too often. Mccron ( talk) 21:46, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have written a memoir which I think adds to the understanding of the relationship between the NICRA and the IRA as it then was (1960s, attempting to go political under Goulding). This was published in April 2006 by a Tyndall-Lilliput combination, is publicly available, and is called 'Century of Endeavour'. It goes in some depth to the foundation of the Wolfe Tone Societies and the steps which led to the development of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, under influences which included the Connolly Association in London. An overview can be seen via my web-site which is at http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/ and an electonic version of the book, with notes and references hotlinked into source material, is accessible by arrangement with me in the short run, and in the long run will be publicly available one way or another.
I could write a revised entry on the origin of the Troubles in NI, but would not want to be seen as simply promoting my book. I would prefer if someone else who knew the period were to write an update, drawing on my book as a referenceable source, and I would co-operate with this process by making available the e-version of the book.
There was an element in the IRA in the 60s which genuinely wanted to go the political road and to prove it would work without violence, and in my time I tried to act as a source of policies for this process.
Perhaps someone like Daltun O Ceallaigh, who is referenced, might be persuaded to take this up? Should I sugggest it to him?
Roy Johnston 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Roy Johnston April 3, 2007
This page seems mostly one sided to me, and I'm not even from NI, the page needs to show all details not just ones that involve loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces, the nationalist paramilitaries killed more people then the other two combined (nevermind the disappeared) and yet they are hardly touched upon in this article, they seem to be virtually revered on other pages in this site, also collusion must be looked at in both ways.
I am not saying this out of spite or anything I was doing research for a history essay on the troubles and was looking at wikipedia, as you do, for general information and thought it isn't exactly fair —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.240.229.68 ( talk) 22:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your comment unsigned. I would urge you to try and add a bit of balance to this article or any of the others regarding Northern Ireland. You'll soon find your edits are not welcome unless they show the British/unionist side in a bad way or they show the nationalist view in a positive light (this includes the IRA). And to think Wikipedia thinks it should be distibuted to schools and the like.
This sentence seems to be the subject of some dispute:
The RUC in response deployed armoured cars with Browning heavy machine guns and killed a nine year old boy in the nationalist Falls Road area of Belfast.
Before I go into any depth, this is what various sources say:
There's probably some more as well, but those adequately demonstrate the points I'm about to make. The RUC used heavy machine guns which were unsuitable for use in a densely populated area, and fired them at the flats. Therefore they take the ultimate responsibility for their actions, seemingly reckless as they were. Did they intend to kill Patrick Rooney? Not for us to say, but to try and fix the sentence in question by say adding the word "accidentally" that would be biased. When the IRA (or any other organisation) make mistakes, do we say "accidentally killed" in this article or any other? Of course not! I've nothing against the sentence being clarified or expanded upon, but to claim it was accidental is incorrect and biased. One Night In Hackney 303 17:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The IRA never claimed to have decommissioned most of its weaponry, the IMC claimed they had. Plus it's all very wishy-washy and speculative, what are "large-scale" armed actions anyway? Unless fertiliser and shovels have been decommissioned, it missed the point somewhat anyway. It's always been minds that needed decommissioning, not weaponry. One Night In Hackney 303 14:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
removed this because it's no longer true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.189.221 ( talk) 00:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
When and where did this conflict first come to be known as "The Troubles", and how did such a mild name come about for such a vicious conflict anyway? 76.123.216.96 ( talk) 06:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Putting the "ulster Loyalists" and the British goverment on the same Combantant sides is historically in accurate. UVF, UDA and others have infact battled with the ex-Royal Ulster Constabalry, Police Service Northern Ireland and The British Army. Please stop changing it back its not historically accurate. If its that nessiary Just add "Ulster Loyalists" in a sepperate combatants box. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL STANCE, I made this change for the sake of historical accuracy. This is the person who keeps reversing my corrections "172.189.19.107". Thank you.
( Paddy ( talk) 16:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC))
But the British goverment claimed uda, uvf and others as terrorist organisations.
( Paddy ( talk) 20:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC))
Right thats true but the Irish nationalists have also had infomation passed on them from RUC and other British forces in order to kill members of Loyalist paramilitaries for Example Johnnny Adair whos where abouts have been told to nationalists in order to carry out assasinations.. so to be fair there is some bad play from all sides.
( Paddy ( talk) 23:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC))
The fact of the matter is I didnt say Adair was the source of the infomation it was a leak from the RUC. Both sides Nationaist and Loyalist have both worked with British forces and fought against them but for the sake of making it clear I have seperated the sides. With saying that the UDA are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda.
To show and example of a time when the British Army has gone against the UVF is the Miami Showband killings were two members of the UVF were convicted of the killing and also were members of the UDR heres a direct statment from the page... "During the Troubles it was a common occurrence to be stopped by the British Army on the roads. The unsuspecting members of the band were taken out of the minibus, and told to line up in a ditch by the side of the road.[2] Some of the men at the checkpoint were British soldiers, from the Ulster Defence Regiment. However, they were also members of an illegal paramilitary organisation, the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF)"
IT THEN GOES ON TO SAY.. "Three members of UDR were eventually convicted for their part in the attack. James Somerville, Thomas Crozier and James McDowell all received life sentences".
To also make it clear that Nationalists have worked with the British goverment have you noticed whos the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, its non other then Sinn Feins Martin McGuinness. Lets just leave it as there was unfair play from all sides. ( Paddy ( talk) 04:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC))
There arn't just a "few exceptions" to the so called rule. Loyalist paramilitaries as I have stated before have worked with/ against the British army and RUC, Just as the Nationalists have. Even with these slight "so called" exeptions they are still enemys and any unlawful coporating with the terrorists by the British army is ilegal as stated with the fact they are technically a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom along with others like Al-Qaeda. There is unfare play in both sides and due to the fact they are a outlawed terrorist organisation in the United Kingdom attempting to place the Ulster Loyalists with the British army under the same side in the infobox because of the views they have previously worked with each other and against, and the fact you stating that they worked together out of your own biast beliefs is a NPOV violation.
( Paddy ( talk) 01:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
Ok, believe me I get the situation, I get were you both are coming from about Loyalist, Nationalist and British beliefs, but all Im wanting is that the Infobox be left as it is with each side seperated for the fact technically there were "3 sides", the article itself can go into the details that need to be addressed about the problems at hand with Loyalism, Nationalism and even Britishism linking and colliding over the decades the troubles in Ireland have had. So can we please all for the sake of creating no NPOV violations and keep this all historically accurate otherwise theres no point of even having a even ballanced story. This is pointless having this endless arguement about "who was right", when it comes down to it the people of Northern Ireland will decide the future regarless of paramillitaries, the British army and this page!
( Paddy ( talk) 01:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC))
No one won in the troubles lets just hope the future will be bright for Ireland and this waring period be ended (but not fogotten) as I stated before there as good and bad people and we all can agree we can learn from the past whenever its a possitive remembering, or a negitive remembering. I mean this entire depate against me was all started over a infobox I placed, the infobox was placed and edited by others for the sake of showing the differnt divides in the troubles, let the page its self go into the details about the situation. Also Traditional Unionist to let you know and to understand that im not particularly baist about the troubles I am a decendent that comes from a long line from a Protestant, Loyalist, Catholics and even Republicans, I cannot hate my family or there company, I just hope for a bright future for the province and Ireland itself. I only wanted to create a "historical" infobox to this page, for others to understand, lets just avoid a one side story to tell.
( Paddy ( talk) 02:22, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
Can you please explain when I ever said that? If anything I want the truth, Why is this debate still going on over the infobox?!
( Paddy ( talk) 09:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
Loyalist and Unionist if you havnt noticed have two differnt pages as they ARE TWO DIFFERNT ideologys. Maybe your one sided views with be accepted by some extremist millitant organisation but not here.
( Paddy ( talk) 18:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
I have fixed the box which was added without discussion or consensus. Should OIRA be moved to the British side? ( Sarah777 ( talk) 19:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC))
By no means is it reflecting a better prespective. By United Kingdom law Loyalist Paramillitaries are illegal terrorist organisations thus ranking them ENEMYS. Plus putting PIRA, RIRA and even INLA on same sides as Republic of Ireland is incorrect as well, seeing as Republic of Ireland has aswell put all those paramillitaries them as well as Illegal terrorist organisations. Just because the ideologies are simmilar, doesn't mean they are on the same sides. Technically, each of those paramillitaries shouldn't be on the same sides, as there has been cases of loyalist and Republican Fueds.
( Paddy ( talk) 09:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
Well I disagree with the fact you concider RoI the only third side, but to be honnest the whole idea of a box is pointless as you are right there where many sides which changed over the 30 years. Maybe it would be for the best just to remove it all together.
( Paddy ( talk) 15:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
Yeah i noticed this isnt the first time this has happened, and best we all just find a practical sollution to the box. Well what would you suggest be done to it? Maybe just keep the main writing and the causalties, and remove the strength and combatants?
( Paddy ( talk) 20:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC))
"conflict was caused by the disputed status of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom and the domination of the minority nationalist community, and discrimination against them, by the unionist majority." this is a pretty bad analysis of the problem, and surely institutional discrimination should be emphasised or at least mentioned. See http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/recent/troubles/the_troubles_article_01.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.32.22.123 ( talk) 13:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
From what my relatives tell me about The Troubles, the threat of and carrying out of punishment beatings were significant, and had a huge effect on the people in NI. However I can't find much about it on Wikipedia. There is a sentence in the article. If there is more, can someone direct me to them, or link it to this page. Thanks. -- 81.132.243.176 ( talk) 13:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC) 'Punishment Beatings'? A beating is a beating whatever title you put before it. I think you may be referring to 'Tarring and Feathering'. A woman would have her hair shaved off, then be smeared with Tar and dusted with Feathers. Not nice. As for folks in Ulster being 'hugely effected' by threats of beatings, you underestimate the folks of Ulster, they are no cowards. Johnwrd ( talk) 01:54, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi everybody, a proposal is being made to ease the current restrictions on questionable sources in the verifiability policy, in response to concerns that an Animal Liberation Front video was being inappropriately excluded from an article. I think editors here might have a useful viewpoint on this proposal. See Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability. Tim Vickers ( talk) 21:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I have closed this AfD as merge to the Troubles. It was suggested in the discussion that the following sentence should be added here:-
"The area comprising East Tyrone, South Londonderry and North Armagh saw such levels of violence that it became known as the 'murder triangle'."
Would someone who know this article better than I please do that? Thanks. -- Bduke ( talk) 08:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Nothing of the sort. Using the unclear "Ireland" or "Irish" in this article only serves to confuse the reader and should not be done. Until Republic of Ireland is moved from its current location, that term should be used where there is any possibility of confusion. In this article, there's far too much possbility of confusion. One Night In Hackney 303 00:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I am going to add back in the full correct legal and proper names of the two states concerned: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I will also add in my additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, RoI can be used to describe the Irish state. This has no connection with the location of the RoI article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland - That is not relevant - This is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading. For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. If you disagree with my edits, please open a discussion - I suggest you call it Names of States involved in Troubles. If most people disagree with my fairly minor (but important) clarification, then I will leave it at that - the article will continue on with a misleading inaccuracy.
As for the discussion re my being blocked. I think User talk:Traditional unionist was indicating that it was unfair. I agree with him but don't want to get involved in 'personal' bickering. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, any use of Ireland will create confusion in anything related to the Troubles article.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The Troubles | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Part of the history of Ireland | ||||||||
Map of Ireland at the present. | ||||||||
| ||||||||
Belligerents | ||||||||
Sovereign state security forces
United Kingdom |
Irish Republicans
Provisional IRA |
Ulster Loyalists | ||||||
Casualties and losses | ||||||||
British Army (excluding NI regiments)499 Total Dead 3524* [3] |
PIRA293 OIRA29 INLA44 IPLO9 CIRAN/A RIRA2 |
UVF 63 UDA 81 LVF 3 RHC 2 UR N/A |
Apart from the simply incorrect (BHG and ONIH pl note) title of free Ireland used, why are the "civilian" casualties listed under "Sovereign state security forces" column? This would seem to imply the "sovereign British state" was at one with the dead civilians when in fact they actually directly or through their Loyalist agencies murdered most of them? Sarah777 ( talk) 18:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I think that the problem with the infobox here probably lies not so much in the content of the infobox as in the fact that it is being used on this article. {{ Infobox Military Conflict}} may work well elsewhere, but it seems to me that editors here are finding the template to be too rigid a straitjacket to accommodate the circumstances of this conflict in an NPOV fashion. One example of this is how to classify the civilian casualties: Sarah777 sets out one view on that, but others would point out that the IRA also killed a goodly number of civilians. An infobox can't accommodate those differences in perspective.
An article does not have to have an infobox. If it's misleading, or if it's just causing edit wars, then it should be removed. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 21:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The map isn't even that useful really. Political geography may be of some use, but not of primary use. It strikes me that there is almost a bit of conspiricy hunting going on here. Clearly, finding a space for murdered civillians will be tricky, but imperitative to this infobox. One would assume that a column-less row could be added to the bottom? Also, I assume that the source is Lost Lives? If so that needs to be made clear. If not - well, why not? Traditional unionist ( talk) 15:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
In the info. box (and in the info. box only), I have added the full correct legal and proper names of the two states involved in the Troubles: the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland. I have also added in additional text explaining that to avoid ambiguity, Republic of Ireland can be used to describe the Irish state.
This has no connection with the location of the Republic of Ireland article (indeed that article sets out clearly that the name of the Irish state is Ireland). What is relevant is that this is an encyclopedia. The above are the names of the two states. Stating otherwise is inaccurate and misleading.
For any one whose not sure about this, please see Names of the Irish state. Its a relatively common misconception that Republic of Ireland is the name of the Irish state. I hope this fairly minor but important edit is accepted by all. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
In case people might be confused about what I was proposing, the follwing is the edit I propose:
"Sovereign state security forces:
What is wrong with the above edit? Why is it contentious? Does any one disagree with its accuracy? Please give reasons if you agree or disagree. If you disagree, you might also set out your reasons why we should not explain what the correct names of the two States are. Regards. Redking7 ( talk) 20:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The members killed after they left are not accepted. The source cited says 197, and the article must reflect what the source says. The source doesn't include former members, so neither should we. Domer48 ( talk) 17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Then the source should be changed. The Palace Gardens Memorial lists these members as murdered as a direct consequence of UDR membership. Happy to leave it as it is until you can find a more accurate source GDD1000 ( talk) 17:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, since you put it like that then I'll leave it. I don't want to POV push. I'm entirely against that concept. All I want to see is a nicely balanced article with no cruft in favour of ANYONE! If we stick to the facts I'm sure we'll get along fine. GDD1000 ( talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I have removed various information pertaining to 1970 which has been added. Firstly it was a very selective addition, seemingly based solely on information designed to make the IRA look bad. Secondly some of the information (first female to die) is disuputed by other sources, including one I have added. Thirdly there was ample commentary added to what the source had said, and in the case of Short Strand made no attempt to explain the circumstances in which people were shot, instead presenting a very biased viewpoint. We do not tend to have such breakdowns by year for any other year, especially not one-sided (and therefore biased) ones, so I do not see why 1970 should be any different, but would welcome discussion about if and in what format the information could be added back, subject to it being unbiased of course. Also I have added back sections pertaining to the background which should not have been arbitrarily removed without discussion. In addition I have removed various tags added without explanation, ones that are not weasel words as far as I can see, and removed various unsourced information. If there are any questions about this please ask them here. Domer48 ( talk) 07:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I changed one instance of the word "victim" which covered 800 dead to simply "dead". I then noticed the word is all over this article like an outbreak of measles. "Victim" is a value-laden weasel unless used in a very specific context - should it be used in this article at all? Sarah777 ( talk) 00:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I find the emphasis of this article to be slightly odd. There is an (unnecessarily) long background/history section, and quite detailed coverage of the "peace process", and even the parades issue, but relatively little on the Troubles themselves! There seems to be a bias towards political developments and issues, rather than on the actual violence (with the exception of the collusion issue(!), which is given significant coverage). Surely this article should focus on the violence and the security response to it. Mooretwin ( talk) 13:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the following sentence, because it doesn't make sense: Their government addressed many of the concerns of the civil rights movement: re-drawing electoral boundaries to make them more representative, giving all citizens the vote in local elections, and transferring the power to allocate public housing to an independent Northern Ireland Housing Executive, for example. To what does "their government" refer? The reforms listed were actually carried out by the Unionist Government before Direct Rule. Perhaps this should be included elsewhere? Mooretwin ( talk) 14:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
The introduction of this article states categorically that The Troubles "was a period of conflict ... from the late 1960s until the Belfast Agreement of 10 April 1998". Is this correct? Is there a consensus that the Troubles ended then? Loyalist violence continued after this, including several feuds, and "dissident republican" violence continues today. Mooretwin ( talk) 14:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, here is RS that supplys 8 different dates, the Belfast Agreement isn't even the first one, and taken in tat context, doesn't seem to be the most rational choice. Traditional unionist ( talk) 22:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The P. Process is still ongoing, addressing the causes of conflict. Nationlists were not the cause of the conflict stop pushing your bias onto the article. -- Domer48 'fenian' 07:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
(de-in) To decide when the Troubles ended you first need to ask: what were the Troubles? If you just take the simplistic view that it was a shooting war between the IRA and the British security forces then Good Friday was not the end because the IRA was not a party to that, but then again 5 October or 12 August are not the right starting dates either because the IRA was not involved in them either. No, clearly the Troubles embraces the wider issues of relations between the community and the police and army, and between the two communities. Are they defined solely by violence and death? If so, then the Omagh bombing itself would be the end date, since that was the last major act of (lethal) violence, but that would hardly be considered appropriate. If not, then they must include things like Drumcree and Holy Cross, which continued after 1998. Is the Peace Process part of the Troubles? Clearly it is, but the Peace Process didn't end with the Good Friday Agreement; that was the climax, but the agreement still needed to be implemented.
I would suggest that an appropriate end date is one year ago today, 31 July 2007, the formal end of
Operation Banner. Even from an IRA point of view this makes sense, since it represents the achievement of one of their key demands: the withdrawal of British troops to barracks. Having said that, the period 1998 - 2007 should be given its appropriate weight, which is small in relation to the rest of the article. A catalogue of elections or UUC meetings would not be needed. Allegations of IRA involvement in the Northern Bank robbery would be relevant, since it relates to alleged gearing up for a military campaign, but allegations of IRA invovement in the killing of Robert McCartney would not. The St. Andrews Agreement and the formation of the current Executive are obviously important milestones in the ending of the Troubles. So why not have a short section to deal with all that?
Scolaire (
talk) 10:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Edit summary was "rv, RUC British? RIR British? UDR British? Probably were?"
Home Office police force and two British Army Regiments, so yes, British. Traditional unionist ( talk) 17:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
This section begins:
Dispute? Since nobody fired a starter's gun and said "the Troubles are on!", various dates are put forward as the beginning; that's hardly a dispute! Some suggested starting dates are (in chronological order):
For the 5 October 1968 date, both sides can be and are blamed - the "illegal" marchers, the "indisciplined" RUC; for the 12 August 1969 date, ditto. The opening sentence is wrong on all counts IMO. Can we not reword the whole paragraph just to say: "these things happened, by the end of it the Troubles were well and truly on"? Scolaire ( talk) 20:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I added some background cites as requested in the article. I think the main thing at this point is to tighten up what we have, then look for balance. I also modified some language regarding the Orange Order. I hope it flows better. Yachtsman1 ( talk) 02:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice work again, Yachtsman. I hate to say this after you've done so much hard work, but I've actually been wondering if we shouldn't radically reduce those sections? They're far more a history of NI/Ireland than a background to the Troubles. GDD1000 attempted this a few months ago but he went at it, shall we say, somewhat recklessly and the result was a blanket revert. Scolaire ( talk) 05:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The article needs to highlight the backlash on Northern Irish society during the Troubles. For instance, the kids throwing rocks and bottles in the streets, the numerous women left to raise children on their own while their husbands were in prison, the constant military presence, checkpoints, roadblocks, bomb alerts, the lack of nightlife, pubs fortified, searches to go shopping in the city centre, the intimidation, fear of forming friendships with someone of a different religion, the stress and anxiety of parents whenever their kids went outside, the atmosphere of violent murals, etc. These things need to be mentioned.-- jeanne ( talk) 13:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
This section states that The Troubles were caused by three factors:
Could someone explain the difference between 2 and 3. This is the same factor, surely? Mooretwin ( talk) 09:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
"British rule" is a more common phrase, and is not POV, and I'd agree that it wasn't only Catholics who opposed British Rule. I could add additional sources if Editors feel it is nessary?-- Domer48 'fenian' 09:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Mooretwin for the suggestions. I would just point out though that its not a barter situation either or if you know what I mean? I have no problem with it kept it in quotation marks, though I don't see the point. Please remove catholic as we all know its incorrect, if you need a reference please let me know thanks. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I ask again - what is the difference between 2 and 3 above. I see no difference and either 2 or 3 ought to go, in my view. Mooretwin ( talk) 09:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
"British rule" is a more common phrase, and I could add additional sources if Editors feel it is nessary? On the edit summary "includes POV language" could you explain what this means? Just because you don't agree with it dose not make it POV. I'll like editors to explain what their understanding of POV is. -- Domer48 'fenian' 15:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, understanding and based on my reading it was more than just a banner slogan. I don't subscribe to the notion of divided communities in conflict with each other, and the British Government as some sort of honest broker trying to keep the two sides apart. I’m still interested in the use of POV, and what editors understanding is of the circumstances for using it. -- Domer48 'fenian' 18:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
The fair use rational for this image is "To illustrate a terrorist-guerrilla action which is the subject of the article. Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the subject of this article and how the event depicted was very historically significant to the general public."
The first thing I'd say is that this article is not about terrorist-guerrilla actions per se it is much broader. In what way dose the image add "significantly to the article"? It also fails our fair use rational. -- Domer48 'fenian' 20:42, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Which images?. Images which aren't fair use for the purposes of this policy "non-free content" means all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license. There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article. Such material may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met.-- Domer48 'fenian' 21:03, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Would the images omission be detrimental, no I don't think it would. Now we are talking here about Non-free content and not about images which aren't fair use, they are public domain.-- Domer48 'fenian' 22:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Blowdart for your comment. Could we possibly deal with one issue at a time please and address the Non-free content first? You still have not addressed the issues I've raised above, for example would the images omission be detrimental? Dose the image comply with the Non-free content policy? Thanks, -- Domer48 'fenian' 22:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
What do you mean by "underscoring the nature of that attack" and you still have not address the Fair Use rational. Thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 23:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
this article is incredibly biased against the british —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.114 ( talk) 00:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
An edit to the intro section added; "There is significant disagreement regarding the terminology for this period of conflict, as some seek to reduce the validity of some of the participants by referring to it as 'troubles' rather than a war."
The reference given for this was the Report Of The Consultative Group on the Past (page 51). What the report stated was, "A potentially contentious issue for the Group has been the terminology used to describe the past – was it the ‘Troubles’, the ‘Conflict’ or the ‘War’? While acknowledging that there are many different interpretations of the past and what it represented, for the purposes of this Report the Group has chosen to use the phrase ‘the conflict in and about Northern Ireland’4 or simply ‘the conflict’. This is a pragmatic choice, which is not intended to reflect any particular historical or legal interpretation." This doesn't at all sound like it supports what was added above, so I removed it. Alastairward ( talk) 19:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
The reference provided does not source the claim. Firstly I doubt the reference due to the claim that it is sourced by page 472, when the book has exactly 472 pages. As different authors date the Troubles from anywhere from 1966 onwards (obviously Coogan included), the title of the book using 1966 does not mean that "the term was used pre-1968 to describe the ongoing political situation in Northern Ireland". I personally prefer the previous lead which has been changed for some reason, it used to read "The duration of the Troubles is conventionally dated from the late 1960s to the late 1990s" and I have restored it as it avoids setting any particular date for the start. O Fenian ( talk) 20:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Cain uses Britain in his table, but the wikipedia transcription has changed this to England. Anyone got any idea why? I'm loath to change the introductory paragraph back whilst the table says England; but if the reference for the table is Cain as indicated then why is England used in the table? -- Blowdart | talk 21:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit which claims the Troubles were an armed conflict, as this is a misleading over-simplification of events. The Troubles included armed conflict, but the conflict was much more than that. Some academics date the start of the Troubles to the formation of NICRA, when there was no armed conflict going on. Many others to the Battle of the Bogside and associated riots, while there were sporadic shots fired it was hardly an "armed conflict". The Troubles was more about the conflict between the two communities on various levels, including armed conflict. To describe it as just an "armed conflict" displays an ignorance of what they were really about. O Fenian ( talk) 11:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Domer48 and BigDunc are combining to delete "ethno-" from the phrase "ethno-political conflict", giving their personal viewpoints as justification. Consensus should be sought for this change of stable text, so I have reverted them. Let them put their case here. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Blowdart first I did not breech any sanctions, provide diff's to support the accusation or strike the comments. Support your contension that wikipedia's definition of an Ethnic group it seems to fit well. Thanks -- Domer48 'fenian' 10:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
It was not a ethnic conflict, it was political. It was not even a religious conflict! As O Fenian has correctly pointed out, it's unsourced, and not even in the article. If it's not in the article, why is it in the WP:LEAD ?
I'd like to retract my comment on the use of the references on the British Isles page. I haven't had a close look at the talk page for a while and should have done when I made my statement saying it was setting a precedent. The editors involved in the discussion seem to be coming to some kind of consensus on the use of the refs without mention of commentators. Titch Tucker ( talk) 14:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Could some editor point me to the sentence in any of the sources provided that states that it was an ethnic conflict thanks. BigDunc Talk 21:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)I think it's a little silly to continue to argue with citations provided by Blowdart. While I agree with the sentiment that the Troubles had nothing to do with religion, or ethnicity, I'm not going to argue with experts and citations. I suggest that unless there are references to dispute the citations stating the Troubles were an ethnic conflict, that we let it go and move on. Wikipedia is not about truth and light - it's an encyclopedia and relies on citations and references and reliable sources. -- HighKing ( talk) 22:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Again, if the subject were addressed in the article, we would know what "definition of ethnic" is being used and in what context. At present we just don't know. If we don't know, why is it in the Lead, and why is it not "fleshed out" in the article.The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic.
The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should be established in the first sentence of the lead.-- Domer48 'fenian' 10:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi Blowdart, would you agree that material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic. Is it your view that the term is able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. The "pissing match" you described is actually called WP:NPOV, which says all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors. -- Domer48 'fenian' 14:35, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, here is an interesting part of a study on writing style, meta:Wiki_is_not_paper#Timeliness_and_ease_of_editing ~ R. T. G 23:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
As the long chronological section in The Troubles is duplicated in Chronology of the Northern Ireland Troubles should the material here be deleted as was done in the Great Irish Famine article? In that article Domer and Rockpuppet cogently argued that it was imperative that such duplications in articles on Irish history be avoided. Does the same logic apply here? Colin4C ( talk) 09:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I see editors are still taking it upon themselves to extend the Troubles by ten years. We do not trailblaze, unless sources are claiming the Troubles are still ongoing the 2009 deaths should not be in this article, it is factually incorrect. O Fenian ( talk) 20:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, it is interesting to note that both Gordon Brown and Gerry Adams - responding to Saturday's murders - referred to "attacks on the peace process", thus implying that the Troubles are not, in fact, over (since - logically, if the peace process is still ongoing, it has not ended: therefore we do not yet have peace, and so the Troubles are not over). Mooretwin ( talk) 12:35, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Too much emphasis on Security Forces misdeeds. The main driver of the conflict, once it had started (or restarted) in 1969, was the PIRA campaign to use violence to unite NI with the South. Does anyone disagree with this statement? If not, then the article should reflect that. The main activity of the security forces was trying to suppress the violence, but again this is poorly reflected in the article. (If you disagree, please look at the (approximate) figures - 20,000 - 30,000 police and troops over 30 years kill 368 people i.e. 1 per 2000 man-years of security force time).
I have made a couple of minor changes. I suggest that everyone involved with editing the article has a think about the overall balance. We should be aiming for content and wording that reflects the facts. Of course, the article should be neutral about e.g. whether the PIRA and wider Irish Republican aims were justified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRPCunningham ( talk • contribs) 20:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The Provisional IRA (or "Provos", as they became known), formed in early 1970, soon established itself as more aggressive and militant in responding to attacks on the nationalist community. It gained much support in the nationalist ghettos in the early 1970s as their "defenders". Despite the increasingly reformist and Marxist politics of the Official IRA, they began their own armed campaign in reaction to the ongoing violence. From 1970 onwards, both the Provisionals and Officials engaged in armed confrontations with the British Army.
The Provisional IRA (or "Provos", as they became known), formed in early 1970, soon established itself as more aggressive and militant than the Official IRA. It gained much support in the nationalist ghettos in the early 1970s as their "defenders". Despite the increasingly reformist and Marxist politics of the Official IRA, they began their own armed campaign in reaction to the ongoing violence. From 1970 onwards, both the Provisionals and Officials engaged in armed confrontations with the British Army.
O Fenian, IMO a casual reader (of what is, after all, a rather long article) could interpret the statement as saying that all IRA activity was defensive. It needs rephrased. You are welcome to have a first go at rephrasing, otherwise I will try some wording. But you should not just revert. Agreed? PRPCunningham ( talk) 15:26, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Domer48, I am not suggesting that my opinions be used as the source of material in the article. Rather, my opinion is that the article is unbalanced and the wording is insufficiently neutral. With regards to this, my opinion needs to be accounted for, as well as the opinions of other editors. I will quotes sources for any new material that I might add to the article.
O Fenian, We are looking for wording that everybody can agree on - that is correct, neutral, balanced etc. The fact that you think the wording is fine is insufficient to establish that everybody thinks it fine. We need to find wording that both you and I can agree is acceptable.
Everyone, Besides the questions of balance etc, the article is too long (in my opinion!). What do you think? Peter Cunningham PRPCunningham ( talk) 07:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Jeanne, I agree that the Troubles are significant. The length of the article may well be suitable for an Irish/British encyclopedia. But maybe a world-wide encyclopedia such as Wikipedia would be better served by a shorter article. Otherwise, you have the danger that readers skip over parts of the article. Hence, I would suggest that, in line with suggestions made in the article itself, the material be split into several, shorter articles.
O Fenian, I know that you think that the sentence is OK. The point is that I do not. We should aim for wording that suits everyone, unless you wish to claim a privileged position. If, of course, you manage to show that almost everyone else, from all points of view, thinks that the wording is OK, then I could accept that mine is a lone opinion. However, I do not think this is the case. Looking at the wider context, the sentence is in a section entitled "Violence peaks and Stormont collapses", whose first paragraph is "The years 1970–1972 saw an explosion of political violence in Northern Ireland, peaking in 1972, when nearly 500 people lost their lives." As such, the sentence could be interpreted as suggesting that all the IRA activity in this period was defensive (while, as the article says, the activity included setting off 1300 bombs, something which is not really defensive activity).
Everyone, I would like to restate my earlier point that the article does not reflect the fact that the predominant activity of the security forces was trying to prevent acts of violence (by means of patrols, checkpoints etc, etc), while the predominant activity of the paramilitaries was trying to commit acts of violence. This may be obvious to a UK/Irish audience, but not to a world-wide audience, so I would suggest that the article states this, in one form or the other. I am happy to dig up references to support this point, but, if I do so, I would be grateful if I could have some assurances that my changes to the article will not be immediately reverted. Please note that ALL of my changes to the article have been reverted. This suggests, in itself, that there is a lack of balance in the overall editing of the article.
Peter
PRPCunningham (
talk) 13:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
O Fenian you have more than addressed this issue. -- Domer48 'fenian' 17:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have been looking at the help material. The second paragraph of Wikipedia Policies and Guidelines reads "Policies and guidelines describe standards that have community consensus, and indeed consensus is itself a core policy and philosophy. Those who adhere to neutral point of view, are civil to and assume good faith in others, seek consensus in discussions, and work towards the goal of creating an increasingly better written and more comprehensive encyclopedia should find a very welcoming environment." Consensus is a core policy. We need to seek consensus about acceptable wording, placement etc for the sentence in question. It is not sufficient for you to state that you think the wording and placement are acceptable. It needs also to be acceptable to me (assuming mine is not an lone or crazed point of view). The sentence in question may well refer to defensive actions, but it is in a section describing 1970-72 and it follows earlier paragraphs that deal with the period 1970-72. As such, I believe it could suggest to a casual reader that the PIRA activity during the peak of the violence was essentially defensive (while, as the article states, the PIRA activity included setting of 1300 bombs) We need to find wording acceptable to all parties. If you restate the fact that you think the wording acceptable, you are missing the point about seeking consensus (and leave open the possibility of a sterile cycle of changes and reverts. So, to reduce the matter to a direct question - do you agree we need to seek consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRPCunningham ( talk • contribs) 08:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
If the article states that the IRA was acting defensively in 1969 (based on the PIRA statements), then it should also state that the security forces were acting to prevent violence (based on Hansard, the courts etc, etc). PRPCunningham ( talk) 20:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I've amended the following inaccurate statement in the "Violence peaks and Stormont collapses" section:
By 1972, the Provisional IRA had killed more than 100 soldiers, wounded 500 more and carried out 1,300 bombings
I've checked the Sutton index and this is untrue. My count is that, excluding own goals, by 1972, PIRA had killed "only" 39 soldiers (excluding UDR), 33 civilians, 13 police and 5 UDR. The sentence is therefore wrong, and omits to mention of civilian deaths, which is notable and relevant. How can we improve this? Mooretwin ( talk) 20:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC at the Ulster Defence Regiment article. Unfortunately, it is only attracting the usual suspects, and we really need some fresh views. Mooretwin ( talk) 23:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Disruption by sock of banned User:HarveyCarter |
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There was no discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland. People could not get jobs due to the recession. ( 2A00:23C4:6384:600:30E6:B0B6:F10E:9F52 ( talk) 12:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC))
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