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This article used to offer a concise encyclopedic overview detailing different frameworks for defining the state. In the past year, however, someone turned this article into a disambiguation page, and directed the content defining the state to the article ' sovereign state.' That change had the effect of conflating the concepts of sovereignty and the state. Therefore, I have restored an older version of the article offering an appropriately broad overview of the concept. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please let me know. 172 | Talk 02:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, unfortunately, the current does duplicate the sovereign state page. The problem is that sometime in 2008 someone moved the content in state to sovereign state, and then created a new page on state. The sovereign state should be moved back to page state ... I am no longer an administrator. I believe we need an administrator make these moves. 172 | Talk 16:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
state
/steɪt/
–noun
1. the condition of a person or thing, as with respect to circumstances or attributes: a state of health.
2. the condition of matter with respect to structure, form, constitution, phase, or the like: water in a gaseous state.
3. status, rank, or position in life; station: He dresses in a manner befitting his state.
4. the style of living befitting a person of wealth and high rank: to travel in state.
5. a particular condition of mind or feeling: to be in an excited state.
6. an abnormally tense, nervous, or perturbed condition: He's been in a state since hearing about his brother's death.
7. a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.
8. ...
There are lots of other meaning of the word state before we get to political science, so the logical thing to have here is a disambiguation page.
172: It is very difficult to have a "concise encyclopedic overview" of the term state when you conflate Ohio with France. As it stands this article is a content fork of Sovereign state.
I think this article should be reverted to a disambiguation page. The disambig should have been moved, not just blanked over. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi all - 172 asked me to take a look here, so I thought I'd give my thoughts. It seems to me that the first 6 definitions of "state" provided by Blue-Haired Lawyer above are pretty much irrelevant, because none of them is an encyclopedic meaning - they are simply meanings of the word. Nonetheless, there are obviously other meanings of the word, and there ought to be a disambiguation page. There seem to be two possibilities for this:
It seems to me that the question between these two possibilities is ultimately not especially important, and there's no particular reason to get worked up about it one way or another. I'd say my preference would be for Option #1, but I don't think it matters that much.
If, however, there is a strong sentiment that State should be the disambugation page, there is also another question, which is - "what should the article about the political entity be called?" I think 172 presents some fairly cogent reasons why Sovereign state is problematic - not all states are sovereign. An example: the Kingdom of Ireland before 1784 was certainly a state, in that it had, by that point, a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, and so forth. On the other hand, it was certainly not sovereign, because it was legally dependent on the Kingdom of Great Britain - the Irish parliament could only enact legislation with approval from Westminster. As such, moving it to something like State (political entity), or the like, would seem appropriate. I think this is an awkward solution, because State (political entity) is an awkward title. I also think that this meaning of "state" is probably a primary meaning, so this is unnecessary. Nonetheless, this should all be done not through deleting pages that currently exist, but through moving articles. john k ( talk) 02:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll add - from the disambiguation page, it's pretty clear that the political meaning is the dominant encyclopedic meaning of the term. The whole first section of it concerns political meanings. This is followed by an obscure printing term, and then a bunch of proper nouns, none of them especially famous (and, for the most part, taking their names from the political meaning of the word). Then we've got some scientific, theological, etc., terms of art. The only possibly competitive meaning, I think, would be state of matter - but I really think that the political meaning is basically the dominant one here. But if everyone prefers to keep the disambiguation page at State, I don't think that's such a big deal either. john k ( talk) 02:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I know there has been some contention here. I hope that the creation of a disambiguation page resolves most of the conflicts. I think that as it stands this is a good article. It has a nice balance between the history of the state and different theoretical approaches to the state.
Unfortunately, I have no time to contribute to this article right now. I do have some suggestions. First, I think it would be good to flesh out the section on the city-state. This would require looking to archeologists and people like Karl Wittvogel who have studied the rise of the first city-states in the Fertile Crescent. It would also involve more discussion of the different constitutions Aristotle and Plato described, and put their theoretical views in the historical context of Greek city states. Ditto Cicero and other Roman debates about the Roman constitution, in their historical context ... and then a little discussion of how later advocates of democracy looked back to the Greek and Roman experiences for ideas.
For the Middle Ages, there should be more discussion of Kantorowicz. Also, following Marx, some anthropologists distinguish between centralized tributary states (e.g. the Islamic Caliphates and Mongolian Empire) and decentralized tributary states (e.g. feudal Europe).
For the Modern state, I'd like to see a separate section on the views of machiaveli, Locke, Hobbes and Roussau - still keeping them in their historical contexts but really getting at what is at stake in their different notions of the state. The history section would benefit from a discussion of the book, The Great Arch and the concept of @state formation."
Finally, there are important views of anthropologists that ought to be included. The classic positions are Morton fried in The Evolution of Political Society and Ronald Cohen and Elman Service's Origins of the State. Anthropologists are essential to making the article less Eurocentric - I am not questioning the importance of the experience of Europe, only the importance of drawing on a greater diversity of case-studies. There are two volumes that would be extremely helpful here:
I apologize that I cannot do this work myself, but these are significant views from notable and reliable sources. Anyone who has concerns about this article would do well to get these books from the library and figure out what from them should be incorporated into this article, rather than getting into revert wars. I think the books I suggest really will help make this a great article. in the meantime my congratulations to those who have worked on this, because right now it manages to cover an impressive range of views and kinds of states with great economy. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I also think that the "sovereign state" page is problematic. It is true these two articles have a great deal of overlap. I suggest that this article be used for "the state," providing different theories and types. I suggest that the other article be deleted, with material redistributed between this article (on the state) and Sovereignty (on sovereignty) which ought to cover theories specifically about sovereignty and also current debates over divided or partial soveriegnty such as we have with Indian nations in the Americas. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't care to get into the "to dab or not to dab" discussion above so if State ends up being merged with sovereign state or whatever, then this segment of discussion will become redundant.
As part of the disambiguation though (if it is to remain so), I've listed how the term state might be used in a localised form in many parts of the English-speaking world--that is, to refer a component state in a federation. All up there is about 12 sub-entries, topped with the State (administrative division), so the navigator can find a specific group of states, or reach the broader concept. The list was removed and replaced with the following entry in order to sum up the list:
This is a good call--apart from the wording, because not all states in this sense are part of a federation--and I'd support it, but it doesn't seem to stick that way. Before long, U.S. state starts popping up there, and that just takes you right back to specifics. Editors can voice their thoughts here if they like, but if you have one you have all.
As a side note, I removed the disputed statement tag on the entry for the United States--I know what the argument is there, and it's the same for all twelve federations in the list (the US isn't some unique anomaly; it's the same as any other federal state). You can change the followup on main entry (State (administrative division) if you can phrase it more suitably. Night w ( talk) 12:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about the twelve assertions that start with "A federated state of ..." on this disambig page. I understand that, per policy, it is not normally necessary to add verifiable citations to disambig pages. However, here we are not merely disambiguating the word state, we are making an assertion about that particular state, through the use of the word federated. I am not familiar with the detailed nature of the state/national political relationship in each of these twelve instances, but it does seem we are making an unverified assertion that, in all cases, it is a federation relationship. Is this true? By what source can we claim this? Or ought we just eliminate the assertions entirely by removing the federated claim? Thoughts welcome. N2e ( talk) 17:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Since we seem to have ended the discussion on Citations and moved on to categories of states -- in this case states that are often, but not necessarily correctly, classified as State (administrative division) -- I have started a new section to contain that discussion (some of which occurred before the creation of this section heading, but is otherwise unchanged, except for indention). N2e ( talk) 20:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
[Repeating a comment that ended the previous section:] "in the English-speaking world, the term state is very frequently used to refer to one of the U.S. states (of which, as Night w points out, U.S. States are not administrative divisions of a larger government. it's the other way around. the federal government is an administrative conglomeration of smaller states) and also to subnational states in other countries." N2e ( talk) 19:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I just came across this article stub: Constituent state. It's badly written, uncited and very vague. It needs substantial work, but I'm also not sure about the subject it's referring to... Has anyone ever heard the term constituent state used? The text on the article seems to be referring to a multitude of different kinds of polities. I was going to propose its deletion, but I think it might be able to provide the solution to the Palau problem I talked about in the above section.
So...if it is a viable term, can it refer to states as administrative divisions? Or is it used as a more general term that can also include federated states? I also like the reference to the Somali states and Cyprus, altho the use on those could be controversial. I thought I'd check to see what others think about this before I make a move on it... Night w ( talk) 03:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
which is currently Federated state. I don't ask to rename that article, but next to/under " Federated state, a political entity forming part of a federal sovereign state", could we add "aka State (administrative division)", "i.e. a subnational entity", "which includes a list of such states" or something like that?
I freely admit I'm not the sharpest pencil in the class, so when looking for an article that'll lead me to U.S. state, I was confused as to which door would take me there. I clicked United States, and found the link in that article. Then I realized there might be discussion here. I understand not wanting bias or a long list by including US, Mexican, etc. state.
I would've understood had there been any of the suggestions above. I know the title/description doesn't cover the full definition, but like redirects, a less precise but more layman's definition/title in addition would help readers and editors like me. Terrierhere ( talk) 17:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggestions:
I understand wanting to keep it short. Constituent or division instead of "part of" wouldn't have told me the list of states is in there. So how about saying it plainly but succinctly? Right now, all 5 of the top links look like they might contain such a list. Terrierhere ( talk) 06:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Just to add, and hoping it helps: I'm not trying to refine its definition, just add that the page includes a list of states, like some links noting that they're (disambiguation) pages themselves. Many people will be seeking a subnational state of a particular country, and some will have trouble pinpointing the link. Terrierhere ( talk) 16:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Went with the second one. When I asked myself, "A list of what?" "Of federated states, of course" was my answer. :) The addition is a little pointer without being garish. Thanks. Terrierhere ( talk) 20:37, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv ( talk) 21:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
State → State (disambiguation) — Clear primary topic — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Being the editor who originally proposed moving State to State (polity), it apt that I should be the one to propose moving them back. I though than as now that the word "state" is ambiguous but, it is clear to me now that State (polity) is the primary topic. This can be easily seen from examining the few articles whose titles are follow the format State (dasam. brackets):
— Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
If State (polity) is going to be moved here and be the primary article, is there really a need for the Nation-state article? Whilst i agree there is a need for the separate article on Sovereign states, the nation state one seems to basically just be stuff that either belongs on the main state article (currently State (polity) or on Sovereign state. BritishWatcher ( talk) 23:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Sovereign state | 58,594 |
State of matter | 27,104 |
Nation state | 26,024 |
State | 24,855 |
Quantum state | 11,181 |
Federated state | 9,476 |
State (polity) | 8,179 |
State (computer science) | 3,518 |
Medical state | 3,465 |
Rechtsstaat | 1,743 |
Thermodynamic state | 1,225 |
State (physics) | 838 |
Chemical state | 624 |
State (magazine) | 525 |
Mental state (disambiguation) | 502 |
State (printmaking) | 481 |
State Magazine | 385 |
Whatever about anything else, the polity articles deserve more prominence than the rest. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 01:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have just noticed that the main entry for the non-political meaning of state is called Status. I have included this as the primary meaning, on the top of the list. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
And what will you do with the actual federated states, in Australia, India, and the United States? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) We are unlikely to call Bavaria a country in English so we call it a state because it is part of a federation. By only listing countries:
we are guilty of wp:systemic bias. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 00:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Ignoring considerations to which federated state states we should include and which we shouldn't, for a moment. I find it highly unlikely that anyway would type "state" in the search box and press go and expect to be sent directly to an article on U.S. states. In so far as ambiguity might arise by looking for state, insofar as the polity articles are concerned in any case, ambiguity arises primarily between state (polity), sovereign state and federated state. Above I've argued that that the first of these is a primary topic because it covers the other two. As far as this discussion goes, I don't see how providing lists of federated states is even vaguely relevant to this article. People living in Alabama might use the phrase "the state" when referring to Alabama, but we've hardly going to list Alabama. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Federated state (disambiguation) has been nominated for deletion. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose that we move state to state (disambiguation) and move sovereign state to state. That seems like the most common usage. Another possibility would be to move state (polity) to state, because of the significant usage of "state" in the U.S. to mean a U.S. state. But I think that "sovereign state" is the most common meaning of "state" internationally. Of course, with the rise of supranationalism, that could change, as we get to the point where there are no sovereign states. Leucosticte ( talk) 16:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Such radical change should be discussed here. Xx236 ( talk) 11:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Any input on the naming rules for The Baltic states? And as a case study, may work well here as well. Problem: The mentioned article is about "The Baltic states", which is a term for grouping countries. University of Western Australia has a clear example of the capitalisation rules for the word "state", which supports the current naming of the mentioned article. "The Baltic States" would traditionally mean that the three countries somehow form a common governing body / form a union, which the Baltic states do not. The current naming practice is also supported by all other wiki articles about the Baltic states, where the S is not capitalised. So it all seems right so far. But then it's all messed up in real life - There are many cases on the internet where "The Baltic States" has been (erroneously?) used. I can understand when States has been used for book titles. But aside from book titles, this seems to be a bigger problem than it seems at first, as in english, especially for an American, reading "The Baltic States" would undoubtedly mean that the three countries form a common governing body. The capitalised version seems to be used a lot online in body text. Just wondering what the consensus on this is. Even the site of the Latvian government seems to be inconsistent in this and often using the capitalised version. The Estonian government's site apparently gets confused as well. The constitutions of the three countries do not say anything about being baltic states, so it's hard to find direct sources. Can this really just be a mistake in spelling? If it is, it's quite a big mistake and with far-reaching consequences. The three countries do not form a union or anything similar to it and would also not want to be seen as a union. SørenKierkegaard ( talk) 20:24, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Some users might be enraged if i failed to start by mentioning that
Што вы всё прётесь со своим калямаляэлектроннатовоем ?? (я о неординарных)
Надо поставить нацизму памятник .. Статуй! С вытянутым до колен языком ! )))
прислонютый .. 176.59.196.31 ( talk) 02:12, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
While i haven't examined the edit history (which may or not justify either a change of direction or deferring this opportunity in favor
User:Laterthanyouthink, I'm a little bit confused why my edit in different versions is reverted multiple times. I hope my last version will suit my opponent. But if you still have objections, I'm ready to discuss them here. My main concern was that not all subdivisions which are named 'states' are federated states. See #Further discussion of State (administrative division) and potential renaming of that article, #Further discussion of State (administrative division) and #Constituent state above too. -- Thesmp ( talk) 07:15, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Laterthanyouthink: I only saw your edit here after I made my edit here, but on second thought I believe that there are too many common meanings for the word to list in the lead, and actually the DAB page worked pretty well as it was before your edit, always listing the most common meaning first (compare the current version). For context: I came here looking for State (polity) and did not find it in the jumble of alphabetically ordered but mostly rather obscure pages. Would you consider redoing your edit but without the alphabetical reordering? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 18:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Federated state, also containing a list of federated states per country–this is what we do too when linking to name articles on DAB pages:
Paris (given name), also containing a list of people and fictional characters). List of sovereign states, on the other hand, seems unobtrusive and should probably stay.
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This article used to offer a concise encyclopedic overview detailing different frameworks for defining the state. In the past year, however, someone turned this article into a disambiguation page, and directed the content defining the state to the article ' sovereign state.' That change had the effect of conflating the concepts of sovereignty and the state. Therefore, I have restored an older version of the article offering an appropriately broad overview of the concept. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please let me know. 172 | Talk 02:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, unfortunately, the current does duplicate the sovereign state page. The problem is that sometime in 2008 someone moved the content in state to sovereign state, and then created a new page on state. The sovereign state should be moved back to page state ... I am no longer an administrator. I believe we need an administrator make these moves. 172 | Talk 16:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
state
/steɪt/
–noun
1. the condition of a person or thing, as with respect to circumstances or attributes: a state of health.
2. the condition of matter with respect to structure, form, constitution, phase, or the like: water in a gaseous state.
3. status, rank, or position in life; station: He dresses in a manner befitting his state.
4. the style of living befitting a person of wealth and high rank: to travel in state.
5. a particular condition of mind or feeling: to be in an excited state.
6. an abnormally tense, nervous, or perturbed condition: He's been in a state since hearing about his brother's death.
7. a politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.
8. ...
There are lots of other meaning of the word state before we get to political science, so the logical thing to have here is a disambiguation page.
172: It is very difficult to have a "concise encyclopedic overview" of the term state when you conflate Ohio with France. As it stands this article is a content fork of Sovereign state.
I think this article should be reverted to a disambiguation page. The disambig should have been moved, not just blanked over. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi all - 172 asked me to take a look here, so I thought I'd give my thoughts. It seems to me that the first 6 definitions of "state" provided by Blue-Haired Lawyer above are pretty much irrelevant, because none of them is an encyclopedic meaning - they are simply meanings of the word. Nonetheless, there are obviously other meanings of the word, and there ought to be a disambiguation page. There seem to be two possibilities for this:
It seems to me that the question between these two possibilities is ultimately not especially important, and there's no particular reason to get worked up about it one way or another. I'd say my preference would be for Option #1, but I don't think it matters that much.
If, however, there is a strong sentiment that State should be the disambugation page, there is also another question, which is - "what should the article about the political entity be called?" I think 172 presents some fairly cogent reasons why Sovereign state is problematic - not all states are sovereign. An example: the Kingdom of Ireland before 1784 was certainly a state, in that it had, by that point, a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, and so forth. On the other hand, it was certainly not sovereign, because it was legally dependent on the Kingdom of Great Britain - the Irish parliament could only enact legislation with approval from Westminster. As such, moving it to something like State (political entity), or the like, would seem appropriate. I think this is an awkward solution, because State (political entity) is an awkward title. I also think that this meaning of "state" is probably a primary meaning, so this is unnecessary. Nonetheless, this should all be done not through deleting pages that currently exist, but through moving articles. john k ( talk) 02:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll add - from the disambiguation page, it's pretty clear that the political meaning is the dominant encyclopedic meaning of the term. The whole first section of it concerns political meanings. This is followed by an obscure printing term, and then a bunch of proper nouns, none of them especially famous (and, for the most part, taking their names from the political meaning of the word). Then we've got some scientific, theological, etc., terms of art. The only possibly competitive meaning, I think, would be state of matter - but I really think that the political meaning is basically the dominant one here. But if everyone prefers to keep the disambiguation page at State, I don't think that's such a big deal either. john k ( talk) 02:25, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I know there has been some contention here. I hope that the creation of a disambiguation page resolves most of the conflicts. I think that as it stands this is a good article. It has a nice balance between the history of the state and different theoretical approaches to the state.
Unfortunately, I have no time to contribute to this article right now. I do have some suggestions. First, I think it would be good to flesh out the section on the city-state. This would require looking to archeologists and people like Karl Wittvogel who have studied the rise of the first city-states in the Fertile Crescent. It would also involve more discussion of the different constitutions Aristotle and Plato described, and put their theoretical views in the historical context of Greek city states. Ditto Cicero and other Roman debates about the Roman constitution, in their historical context ... and then a little discussion of how later advocates of democracy looked back to the Greek and Roman experiences for ideas.
For the Middle Ages, there should be more discussion of Kantorowicz. Also, following Marx, some anthropologists distinguish between centralized tributary states (e.g. the Islamic Caliphates and Mongolian Empire) and decentralized tributary states (e.g. feudal Europe).
For the Modern state, I'd like to see a separate section on the views of machiaveli, Locke, Hobbes and Roussau - still keeping them in their historical contexts but really getting at what is at stake in their different notions of the state. The history section would benefit from a discussion of the book, The Great Arch and the concept of @state formation."
Finally, there are important views of anthropologists that ought to be included. The classic positions are Morton fried in The Evolution of Political Society and Ronald Cohen and Elman Service's Origins of the State. Anthropologists are essential to making the article less Eurocentric - I am not questioning the importance of the experience of Europe, only the importance of drawing on a greater diversity of case-studies. There are two volumes that would be extremely helpful here:
I apologize that I cannot do this work myself, but these are significant views from notable and reliable sources. Anyone who has concerns about this article would do well to get these books from the library and figure out what from them should be incorporated into this article, rather than getting into revert wars. I think the books I suggest really will help make this a great article. in the meantime my congratulations to those who have worked on this, because right now it manages to cover an impressive range of views and kinds of states with great economy. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I also think that the "sovereign state" page is problematic. It is true these two articles have a great deal of overlap. I suggest that this article be used for "the state," providing different theories and types. I suggest that the other article be deleted, with material redistributed between this article (on the state) and Sovereignty (on sovereignty) which ought to cover theories specifically about sovereignty and also current debates over divided or partial soveriegnty such as we have with Indian nations in the Americas. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't care to get into the "to dab or not to dab" discussion above so if State ends up being merged with sovereign state or whatever, then this segment of discussion will become redundant.
As part of the disambiguation though (if it is to remain so), I've listed how the term state might be used in a localised form in many parts of the English-speaking world--that is, to refer a component state in a federation. All up there is about 12 sub-entries, topped with the State (administrative division), so the navigator can find a specific group of states, or reach the broader concept. The list was removed and replaced with the following entry in order to sum up the list:
This is a good call--apart from the wording, because not all states in this sense are part of a federation--and I'd support it, but it doesn't seem to stick that way. Before long, U.S. state starts popping up there, and that just takes you right back to specifics. Editors can voice their thoughts here if they like, but if you have one you have all.
As a side note, I removed the disputed statement tag on the entry for the United States--I know what the argument is there, and it's the same for all twelve federations in the list (the US isn't some unique anomaly; it's the same as any other federal state). You can change the followup on main entry (State (administrative division) if you can phrase it more suitably. Night w ( talk) 12:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a question about the twelve assertions that start with "A federated state of ..." on this disambig page. I understand that, per policy, it is not normally necessary to add verifiable citations to disambig pages. However, here we are not merely disambiguating the word state, we are making an assertion about that particular state, through the use of the word federated. I am not familiar with the detailed nature of the state/national political relationship in each of these twelve instances, but it does seem we are making an unverified assertion that, in all cases, it is a federation relationship. Is this true? By what source can we claim this? Or ought we just eliminate the assertions entirely by removing the federated claim? Thoughts welcome. N2e ( talk) 17:40, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Since we seem to have ended the discussion on Citations and moved on to categories of states -- in this case states that are often, but not necessarily correctly, classified as State (administrative division) -- I have started a new section to contain that discussion (some of which occurred before the creation of this section heading, but is otherwise unchanged, except for indention). N2e ( talk) 20:30, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
[Repeating a comment that ended the previous section:] "in the English-speaking world, the term state is very frequently used to refer to one of the U.S. states (of which, as Night w points out, U.S. States are not administrative divisions of a larger government. it's the other way around. the federal government is an administrative conglomeration of smaller states) and also to subnational states in other countries." N2e ( talk) 19:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I just came across this article stub: Constituent state. It's badly written, uncited and very vague. It needs substantial work, but I'm also not sure about the subject it's referring to... Has anyone ever heard the term constituent state used? The text on the article seems to be referring to a multitude of different kinds of polities. I was going to propose its deletion, but I think it might be able to provide the solution to the Palau problem I talked about in the above section.
So...if it is a viable term, can it refer to states as administrative divisions? Or is it used as a more general term that can also include federated states? I also like the reference to the Somali states and Cyprus, altho the use on those could be controversial. I thought I'd check to see what others think about this before I make a move on it... Night w ( talk) 03:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
which is currently Federated state. I don't ask to rename that article, but next to/under " Federated state, a political entity forming part of a federal sovereign state", could we add "aka State (administrative division)", "i.e. a subnational entity", "which includes a list of such states" or something like that?
I freely admit I'm not the sharpest pencil in the class, so when looking for an article that'll lead me to U.S. state, I was confused as to which door would take me there. I clicked United States, and found the link in that article. Then I realized there might be discussion here. I understand not wanting bias or a long list by including US, Mexican, etc. state.
I would've understood had there been any of the suggestions above. I know the title/description doesn't cover the full definition, but like redirects, a less precise but more layman's definition/title in addition would help readers and editors like me. Terrierhere ( talk) 17:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Suggestions:
I understand wanting to keep it short. Constituent or division instead of "part of" wouldn't have told me the list of states is in there. So how about saying it plainly but succinctly? Right now, all 5 of the top links look like they might contain such a list. Terrierhere ( talk) 06:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Just to add, and hoping it helps: I'm not trying to refine its definition, just add that the page includes a list of states, like some links noting that they're (disambiguation) pages themselves. Many people will be seeking a subnational state of a particular country, and some will have trouble pinpointing the link. Terrierhere ( talk) 16:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Went with the second one. When I asked myself, "A list of what?" "Of federated states, of course" was my answer. :) The addition is a little pointer without being garish. Thanks. Terrierhere ( talk) 20:37, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv ( talk) 21:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
State → State (disambiguation) — Clear primary topic — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:31, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Being the editor who originally proposed moving State to State (polity), it apt that I should be the one to propose moving them back. I though than as now that the word "state" is ambiguous but, it is clear to me now that State (polity) is the primary topic. This can be easily seen from examining the few articles whose titles are follow the format State (dasam. brackets):
— Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
If State (polity) is going to be moved here and be the primary article, is there really a need for the Nation-state article? Whilst i agree there is a need for the separate article on Sovereign states, the nation state one seems to basically just be stuff that either belongs on the main state article (currently State (polity) or on Sovereign state. BritishWatcher ( talk) 23:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Sovereign state | 58,594 |
State of matter | 27,104 |
Nation state | 26,024 |
State | 24,855 |
Quantum state | 11,181 |
Federated state | 9,476 |
State (polity) | 8,179 |
State (computer science) | 3,518 |
Medical state | 3,465 |
Rechtsstaat | 1,743 |
Thermodynamic state | 1,225 |
State (physics) | 838 |
Chemical state | 624 |
State (magazine) | 525 |
Mental state (disambiguation) | 502 |
State (printmaking) | 481 |
State Magazine | 385 |
Whatever about anything else, the polity articles deserve more prominence than the rest. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 01:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I have just noticed that the main entry for the non-political meaning of state is called Status. I have included this as the primary meaning, on the top of the list. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
And what will you do with the actual federated states, in Australia, India, and the United States? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) We are unlikely to call Bavaria a country in English so we call it a state because it is part of a federation. By only listing countries:
we are guilty of wp:systemic bias. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 00:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Ignoring considerations to which federated state states we should include and which we shouldn't, for a moment. I find it highly unlikely that anyway would type "state" in the search box and press go and expect to be sent directly to an article on U.S. states. In so far as ambiguity might arise by looking for state, insofar as the polity articles are concerned in any case, ambiguity arises primarily between state (polity), sovereign state and federated state. Above I've argued that that the first of these is a primary topic because it covers the other two. As far as this discussion goes, I don't see how providing lists of federated states is even vaguely relevant to this article. People living in Alabama might use the phrase "the state" when referring to Alabama, but we've hardly going to list Alabama. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
Federated state (disambiguation) has been nominated for deletion. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 18:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
I propose that we move state to state (disambiguation) and move sovereign state to state. That seems like the most common usage. Another possibility would be to move state (polity) to state, because of the significant usage of "state" in the U.S. to mean a U.S. state. But I think that "sovereign state" is the most common meaning of "state" internationally. Of course, with the rise of supranationalism, that could change, as we get to the point where there are no sovereign states. Leucosticte ( talk) 16:12, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Such radical change should be discussed here. Xx236 ( talk) 11:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Any input on the naming rules for The Baltic states? And as a case study, may work well here as well. Problem: The mentioned article is about "The Baltic states", which is a term for grouping countries. University of Western Australia has a clear example of the capitalisation rules for the word "state", which supports the current naming of the mentioned article. "The Baltic States" would traditionally mean that the three countries somehow form a common governing body / form a union, which the Baltic states do not. The current naming practice is also supported by all other wiki articles about the Baltic states, where the S is not capitalised. So it all seems right so far. But then it's all messed up in real life - There are many cases on the internet where "The Baltic States" has been (erroneously?) used. I can understand when States has been used for book titles. But aside from book titles, this seems to be a bigger problem than it seems at first, as in english, especially for an American, reading "The Baltic States" would undoubtedly mean that the three countries form a common governing body. The capitalised version seems to be used a lot online in body text. Just wondering what the consensus on this is. Even the site of the Latvian government seems to be inconsistent in this and often using the capitalised version. The Estonian government's site apparently gets confused as well. The constitutions of the three countries do not say anything about being baltic states, so it's hard to find direct sources. Can this really just be a mistake in spelling? If it is, it's quite a big mistake and with far-reaching consequences. The three countries do not form a union or anything similar to it and would also not want to be seen as a union. SørenKierkegaard ( talk) 20:24, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Some users might be enraged if i failed to start by mentioning that
Што вы всё прётесь со своим калямаляэлектроннатовоем ?? (я о неординарных)
Надо поставить нацизму памятник .. Статуй! С вытянутым до колен языком ! )))
прислонютый .. 176.59.196.31 ( talk) 02:12, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
While i haven't examined the edit history (which may or not justify either a change of direction or deferring this opportunity in favor
User:Laterthanyouthink, I'm a little bit confused why my edit in different versions is reverted multiple times. I hope my last version will suit my opponent. But if you still have objections, I'm ready to discuss them here. My main concern was that not all subdivisions which are named 'states' are federated states. See #Further discussion of State (administrative division) and potential renaming of that article, #Further discussion of State (administrative division) and #Constituent state above too. -- Thesmp ( talk) 07:15, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Laterthanyouthink: I only saw your edit here after I made my edit here, but on second thought I believe that there are too many common meanings for the word to list in the lead, and actually the DAB page worked pretty well as it was before your edit, always listing the most common meaning first (compare the current version). For context: I came here looking for State (polity) and did not find it in the jumble of alphabetically ordered but mostly rather obscure pages. Would you consider redoing your edit but without the alphabetical reordering? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 18:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Federated state, also containing a list of federated states per country–this is what we do too when linking to name articles on DAB pages:
Paris (given name), also containing a list of people and fictional characters). List of sovereign states, on the other hand, seems unobtrusive and should probably stay.