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The cited MOS page, like every other one, carries this header at the top:
This guideline is a part of Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.
Now, it is usual practice that while discussions are underway to determine what the consensus is, the status quo ante, the state of the page before the conflict came up, is maintained. Sometimes that can be difficult to determine, because pages have gone through so much editing in their history, but here it's quite simple, because it's a brand new page which I created, and I did so with the links in each line.
So, here we are, we are in a dispute over an edit, and the manual of style says quite specifically that it's not dogma and not set in stone, and that when there is doubt, a discussion should take place to determine what consensus is. So... please do not revert the page again while we have that discussion.
OK, so now that we're back where the page began before this conflict came up, I'm prepared to listen to the reasons, other than a slavish adherence to the Manual of Style (which is a guideline and not dogmatic fiat) why it's better not to have links in each entry, and then I will tell you why I think it's definitely better to have them, and why not having them is a disservice to the Wikipedia user, for whom the encyclopedia is intended to be a useful tool. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 06:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear, bad case of WP:OWN being supported by a liberal interpretation of WP:IAR going on here; I'd best to just back away slowly... -- Closedmouth ( talk) 06:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, BTW, WP:IAR doesn't apply, because, as it says all over the place, the Manual of Style is not a set of rules, so I can hardly "ignore all rules" when it's guidelines that are being discussed. Now, if you want to write up WP:IAG, I'm there with you, but there's no way you'll get it through, not in the exclusionist atmosphere prevalent today.
Anyway, be careful while you're backing away. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 06:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, I disagree with you, and here's why: the ability to move around Wikipedia is (as in the Internet in general) one of its strong points. To deliberate disable this capability by limiting dab links to one per line seems to me cutting off your nose to spite your face. Many times, when I arrive at a disambiguation page, I'm literally searching - that is, I'm heading toward a goal, but I don't actually know what that goal is, and I am looking at anything I can come up with that might help lead me to the place I'm trying to get to. Removing the additional links means that if I reach the dab, and see a reference that jogs my mind and makes me realize that my goal lies in that direction, I can't take off thataway and go further my search, I have to backup to the only link that's available, find the new link I want to follow, and then proceed. That seems an unecessary side-track, when I could do there directly with a link in the entry.
This kind of process mirrors, after a fashion, the way that our memories work, not by using a formal hierarchy, but by fits and starts, hints, inferences and implications. That Wikipedia should be so wonderfully and richly linked, and then seek to limit links in this one respect, seems ... just wierd and out of character.
Now, with links in the lines, I think that the main link should be bolded to keep the primary link in the eye, but I don't seem able to get that change to stick either. In fact, let me go bold it now, so you can see what I mean -- be quick, though, someone will be by to undo it soon, I'm sure! Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 07:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
[Copied from User talk:Jtir to maintain context.] -- Jtir ( talk) 23:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jtir. My thought about why the current page isn't exactly right is that all of the disambig pages that I have created or worked with read Subject (disambiguation). I know that this makes the {{otheruses}} tag work better but I could be wrong in thinking that it is required. I posted this here so that it wouldn't get lost in the middle of the rest of the discussion on the talk page that we have already been posting on. Thanks for your time and happy editing. MarnetteD | Talk 23:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a argument now put forth that "if we start guessing about what else they might be looking for, we might as well link every single term." To begin with, no one's "guessing" anything -- major subjects have been linked as the obvious choices for places that people might want to go. That seems to me better than to deny the user any choice except the main links, that's pretty presumptuous.
Secondly, this is essentially a "slippery slope" objection - "if we start doing this, there will be no way to stop it." The vast majority of slippery slope arguments are silly as long as there's a mechanism in place for controlling the process in question, and indeed on Wikipedia there's the concept of "overlinking." There are hundreds of people out (perhaps thousands) who thrill at the prospect of removing extra links from an article, and DAB pages with too many links wouldn't be excluded from their purview. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 21:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Did you actually think about reverting my dashes back to commas, or did you just push the button because the MoS told you to? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 21:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
@ Yappy2bhere: In regards to your recent revert on The Right Stuff, I just wanted to reference a couple of items:
The Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo program pages all have multiple references to crewed spaceflight, which is line with the original edit.
Thanks! CaptainAngus ( talk) 01:34, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Disambiguation | |||
|
The cited MOS page, like every other one, carries this header at the top:
This guideline is a part of Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It is a generally accepted standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.
Now, it is usual practice that while discussions are underway to determine what the consensus is, the status quo ante, the state of the page before the conflict came up, is maintained. Sometimes that can be difficult to determine, because pages have gone through so much editing in their history, but here it's quite simple, because it's a brand new page which I created, and I did so with the links in each line.
So, here we are, we are in a dispute over an edit, and the manual of style says quite specifically that it's not dogma and not set in stone, and that when there is doubt, a discussion should take place to determine what consensus is. So... please do not revert the page again while we have that discussion.
OK, so now that we're back where the page began before this conflict came up, I'm prepared to listen to the reasons, other than a slavish adherence to the Manual of Style (which is a guideline and not dogmatic fiat) why it's better not to have links in each entry, and then I will tell you why I think it's definitely better to have them, and why not having them is a disservice to the Wikipedia user, for whom the encyclopedia is intended to be a useful tool. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 06:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear, bad case of WP:OWN being supported by a liberal interpretation of WP:IAR going on here; I'd best to just back away slowly... -- Closedmouth ( talk) 06:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, BTW, WP:IAR doesn't apply, because, as it says all over the place, the Manual of Style is not a set of rules, so I can hardly "ignore all rules" when it's guidelines that are being discussed. Now, if you want to write up WP:IAG, I'm there with you, but there's no way you'll get it through, not in the exclusionist atmosphere prevalent today.
Anyway, be careful while you're backing away. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 06:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Clearly, I disagree with you, and here's why: the ability to move around Wikipedia is (as in the Internet in general) one of its strong points. To deliberate disable this capability by limiting dab links to one per line seems to me cutting off your nose to spite your face. Many times, when I arrive at a disambiguation page, I'm literally searching - that is, I'm heading toward a goal, but I don't actually know what that goal is, and I am looking at anything I can come up with that might help lead me to the place I'm trying to get to. Removing the additional links means that if I reach the dab, and see a reference that jogs my mind and makes me realize that my goal lies in that direction, I can't take off thataway and go further my search, I have to backup to the only link that's available, find the new link I want to follow, and then proceed. That seems an unecessary side-track, when I could do there directly with a link in the entry.
This kind of process mirrors, after a fashion, the way that our memories work, not by using a formal hierarchy, but by fits and starts, hints, inferences and implications. That Wikipedia should be so wonderfully and richly linked, and then seek to limit links in this one respect, seems ... just wierd and out of character.
Now, with links in the lines, I think that the main link should be bolded to keep the primary link in the eye, but I don't seem able to get that change to stick either. In fact, let me go bold it now, so you can see what I mean -- be quick, though, someone will be by to undo it soon, I'm sure! Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 07:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
[Copied from User talk:Jtir to maintain context.] -- Jtir ( talk) 23:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Jtir. My thought about why the current page isn't exactly right is that all of the disambig pages that I have created or worked with read Subject (disambiguation). I know that this makes the {{otheruses}} tag work better but I could be wrong in thinking that it is required. I posted this here so that it wouldn't get lost in the middle of the rest of the discussion on the talk page that we have already been posting on. Thanks for your time and happy editing. MarnetteD | Talk 23:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a argument now put forth that "if we start guessing about what else they might be looking for, we might as well link every single term." To begin with, no one's "guessing" anything -- major subjects have been linked as the obvious choices for places that people might want to go. That seems to me better than to deny the user any choice except the main links, that's pretty presumptuous.
Secondly, this is essentially a "slippery slope" objection - "if we start doing this, there will be no way to stop it." The vast majority of slippery slope arguments are silly as long as there's a mechanism in place for controlling the process in question, and indeed on Wikipedia there's the concept of "overlinking." There are hundreds of people out (perhaps thousands) who thrill at the prospect of removing extra links from an article, and DAB pages with too many links wouldn't be excluded from their purview. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 21:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Did you actually think about reverting my dashes back to commas, or did you just push the button because the MoS told you to? Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ( talk / cont) 21:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
@ Yappy2bhere: In regards to your recent revert on The Right Stuff, I just wanted to reference a couple of items:
The Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo program pages all have multiple references to crewed spaceflight, which is line with the original edit.
Thanks! CaptainAngus ( talk) 01:34, 28 September 2021 (UTC)