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I always thought the Dreyfuss Affair was more famous than infamous... Susan Mason
That is a great opinion, and I value it. I would not object to an article stating, "Tarquin thinks the Dreyfuss Affair was infamous." Others disagree with your opinion however... Susan Mason
me and the person who changed this article 5 minutes ago, for starters... Susan Mason
Why don't YOU find some historians who support YOUR opinion? Susan Mason
I have, and you are imposing your opinion of the affair as if it was some iron law or fact. Susan Mason
If you want to say what it was, then say what it was. Infamous doesn't help anybody. Blahblahblahblahinfamousblahblahblahblah, oh look an infamous blahblah boy that sure helps me understand what it was. Susan Mason
What I mean is, infamous is a meaningless POV term which you are trying to retain because you feel it is of great importance to the topic, but apparently it isn't of such great importance because you can't even find one historical source to attribute the statement to. Susan Mason
No anon user, we both have identical slants. Susan Mason
You both misunderstand what the NPOV policy means. If historians disagreed about the Affair, we'd have to take a neutral stance and report both sets of opinions. But this is not the case. This is just nit-picking. And yes, it did affect French society. The effects were considerable --
Tarquin 22:10 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
infamous is a POV-NPOV means NO POV. If you wish to quote a historian regarding how the Affair was "infamous", then go ahead. If you can't find a quote on that then you don't even know what you are talking about, and if you can find the quote, then u need to credit it.
Susan Mason
Surely NPOV means NEUTRAL point of view? 217.39.67.187 22:46 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
Hi 217 - quoting from NPOV - A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view on a controversial issue that is "neutral," or "intermediate," among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what "neutral point of view" means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or carefully but subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
Tarquin, I know of no historians who will state that it is a "fact" that the affair is infamous. It is up to you to provide some support for your POV statement. Susan Mason
I realize that this page is (justly) tagged under Wikiprojects: Judaism, and I wholeheartedly agree that it falls under that purvue. However, while the Dreyfus affair was in fact an example of antisemitism rearing its ugly head, such prejudice is virtually absent in this film. The word "Jew" doesn't even appear in it, owing to Hollywood's stance on antisemitism at the time (check out the documentary "Hollywood and the Holocaust" for this and other examples).
That said, I've removed the phrase "(and much antisemitism)" from the following line of the plot section:
Since the film itself glosses over such antisemitism, I feel that such a parenthetical remark is POV in this particular instance. Should someone else feel compelled to add a section detailing the film's historical veracity, such section should by all means address this issue. But as a remark in passing that is unsupported by the film itself, it adds editorial comment to a straightforward description of the plot. PacificBoy 20:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The article states that the movie never uses the word "Jew." I saw the film three days ago. When the army brass were deciding who should be blamed for Esterhazy's actions, they read over a list of possible candidates. One of officers fixes upon the name "Dreyfus" and asks what is known about him. He is shown a note card summarizing Dreyfus' bio. The camera focuses on the card and scrolls down until it stops at the words "Religion: Jew." The officer then asserts that they've found their man. I agree that the movie skirts the issue of antisemitism, but it's inaccurate to day that it's simply avoided. User:InvisibleSun 22 February 2017
@ User:Parkwells - Respectfully, this section doesn't make much sense as written. It definitely needs some context in regards to this specific film. There's definitely some interesting and/or encyclopedic info here, but its confusing as written.-- Phibesfan ( talk) 05:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Most of the section deals with the overarching issue of Hollywood's reluctance to avoid films that disparaged the Nazis and had little to do with The Life of Emile Zola specifically, so I have trimmed the section to remove much of the meandering narrative. There is more to say about the film's failure to address the topic of antisemitism and Fox's complicity based on research in Thomas Schatz's tremendous The Genius of the System: Hollywood Filmmaking in the Studio Era, which I plan to add to this article soon. Gcjnst ( talk) 20:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I always thought the Dreyfuss Affair was more famous than infamous... Susan Mason
That is a great opinion, and I value it. I would not object to an article stating, "Tarquin thinks the Dreyfuss Affair was infamous." Others disagree with your opinion however... Susan Mason
me and the person who changed this article 5 minutes ago, for starters... Susan Mason
Why don't YOU find some historians who support YOUR opinion? Susan Mason
I have, and you are imposing your opinion of the affair as if it was some iron law or fact. Susan Mason
If you want to say what it was, then say what it was. Infamous doesn't help anybody. Blahblahblahblahinfamousblahblahblahblah, oh look an infamous blahblah boy that sure helps me understand what it was. Susan Mason
What I mean is, infamous is a meaningless POV term which you are trying to retain because you feel it is of great importance to the topic, but apparently it isn't of such great importance because you can't even find one historical source to attribute the statement to. Susan Mason
No anon user, we both have identical slants. Susan Mason
You both misunderstand what the NPOV policy means. If historians disagreed about the Affair, we'd have to take a neutral stance and report both sets of opinions. But this is not the case. This is just nit-picking. And yes, it did affect French society. The effects were considerable --
Tarquin 22:10 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
infamous is a POV-NPOV means NO POV. If you wish to quote a historian regarding how the Affair was "infamous", then go ahead. If you can't find a quote on that then you don't even know what you are talking about, and if you can find the quote, then u need to credit it.
Susan Mason
Surely NPOV means NEUTRAL point of view? 217.39.67.187 22:46 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
Hi 217 - quoting from NPOV - A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view on a controversial issue that is "neutral," or "intermediate," among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what "neutral point of view" means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or carefully but subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
Tarquin, I know of no historians who will state that it is a "fact" that the affair is infamous. It is up to you to provide some support for your POV statement. Susan Mason
I realize that this page is (justly) tagged under Wikiprojects: Judaism, and I wholeheartedly agree that it falls under that purvue. However, while the Dreyfus affair was in fact an example of antisemitism rearing its ugly head, such prejudice is virtually absent in this film. The word "Jew" doesn't even appear in it, owing to Hollywood's stance on antisemitism at the time (check out the documentary "Hollywood and the Holocaust" for this and other examples).
That said, I've removed the phrase "(and much antisemitism)" from the following line of the plot section:
Since the film itself glosses over such antisemitism, I feel that such a parenthetical remark is POV in this particular instance. Should someone else feel compelled to add a section detailing the film's historical veracity, such section should by all means address this issue. But as a remark in passing that is unsupported by the film itself, it adds editorial comment to a straightforward description of the plot. PacificBoy 20:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The article states that the movie never uses the word "Jew." I saw the film three days ago. When the army brass were deciding who should be blamed for Esterhazy's actions, they read over a list of possible candidates. One of officers fixes upon the name "Dreyfus" and asks what is known about him. He is shown a note card summarizing Dreyfus' bio. The camera focuses on the card and scrolls down until it stops at the words "Religion: Jew." The officer then asserts that they've found their man. I agree that the movie skirts the issue of antisemitism, but it's inaccurate to day that it's simply avoided. User:InvisibleSun 22 February 2017
@ User:Parkwells - Respectfully, this section doesn't make much sense as written. It definitely needs some context in regards to this specific film. There's definitely some interesting and/or encyclopedic info here, but its confusing as written.-- Phibesfan ( talk) 05:42, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Most of the section deals with the overarching issue of Hollywood's reluctance to avoid films that disparaged the Nazis and had little to do with The Life of Emile Zola specifically, so I have trimmed the section to remove much of the meandering narrative. There is more to say about the film's failure to address the topic of antisemitism and Fox's complicity based on research in Thomas Schatz's tremendous The Genius of the System: Hollywood Filmmaking in the Studio Era, which I plan to add to this article soon. Gcjnst ( talk) 20:45, 14 February 2022 (UTC)