![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is no such thing as "Holocaust in Estonia", instead it is "The Holocaust", the categoy is totally fake. All the articles tagged here are done so by User:Petri Krohn, known anti Estonian POV pusher. There are no articles-categories "Holocaust in Latvia", "Holocaust in Belarus" or "Holocaust in Lithuania". This is simple Original Research and POV pushing and without whatsoever notability or reliable sources.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.233.72.189 ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 August 2007
I have read through this article carefully and made some edits in an effort to make it more organized. My concern here is that the article seems to focus too much on the role of Estonians in perpetrating the Holocaust. All of the information may well be supported in the references. However it does seem to me, from my work in writing Rumbula massacre that there is an imbalance here between the role of the native collaborators and the German occupying forces. Certainly in Latvia there was the Arajs Kommando, which is put in fairly good perspective by the Wikipedia article on that point. If Estonians were more actively engaged in the Holocaust than other occupied peoples, that point should be clearly made and supported by authority. I realize this is a sensitive topic and so I urge careful and thorough documentation of any material statements of fact. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 14:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Underlying POV issue remains unfortunately. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 19:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
151.136.147.71 ( talk) 10:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
See: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.106.16 ( talk) 11:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
just don't make sense. Vaivara is 230 km distance from Klooga. And the quote from Birn's article relates not to the liquidation of the camp. -- Dodo19 ( talk) 15:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I have restored the deleted content, these issues are well sourced. The article itself is however a total mess – the two incidents do not need their own sections. I would prefer reverting back to this old version from 8 January 2009. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 17:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
In about 20 edits I have now managed to patch together much of the sourced content in the original version. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 20:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
In this edit on 22 April 2010 by Jaan ( talk · contribs) he replaced the sourced info about Estonian collaboration in the extermination of the Klooga concentration camp with opposite but sourced information about the non-involvement in the liquidation of the Vaivara concentration camp. I have reverted the removal of the sourced information. Jaan did however provide this source, which is no longer used:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link)-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 20:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
An excellent source would be Anton Weiss-Wendt's book "Murder without hatred" - no one can accuse him of having any Estonian sympathies, quite the opposite. His numbers are very similar to History Commission's findings (actually, even slightly lower) and reached completely independently.
Also, I don't think the death of Soviet POW's can be included to Holocaust numbers, but, then again, I am not a specialist on that area. It might be better to use non-Soviet sources, as Soviet ones are not especially known for accuracy. Do Soviet numbers include the number of soldiers killed in battles, perhaps? Otherwise the discrepancy is just too big.
The total death toll in Nazi-occupied Estonia (1941-1944) according to
Anton Weiss-Wendt (p351):
Group | Deaths |
---|---|
Lithuanian and Latvian Jews | 5572 |
Estonian Jews | 963 |
Czech Jews | 954 |
German Jews | 917 |
French Jews | 185 |
Russian Jews (POWs) | 16 |
Finnish Jews | 7 |
Ethnic Estonians | 5412 |
Ethnic Russians | 1185 |
Gypsies | 800 |
Ethnic Latvians | 17 |
Soviet POWs | 15000 |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is no such thing as "Holocaust in Estonia", instead it is "The Holocaust", the categoy is totally fake. All the articles tagged here are done so by User:Petri Krohn, known anti Estonian POV pusher. There are no articles-categories "Holocaust in Latvia", "Holocaust in Belarus" or "Holocaust in Lithuania". This is simple Original Research and POV pushing and without whatsoever notability or reliable sources.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.233.72.189 ( talk • contribs) 13:53, 1 August 2007
I have read through this article carefully and made some edits in an effort to make it more organized. My concern here is that the article seems to focus too much on the role of Estonians in perpetrating the Holocaust. All of the information may well be supported in the references. However it does seem to me, from my work in writing Rumbula massacre that there is an imbalance here between the role of the native collaborators and the German occupying forces. Certainly in Latvia there was the Arajs Kommando, which is put in fairly good perspective by the Wikipedia article on that point. If Estonians were more actively engaged in the Holocaust than other occupied peoples, that point should be clearly made and supported by authority. I realize this is a sensitive topic and so I urge careful and thorough documentation of any material statements of fact. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 14:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Underlying POV issue remains unfortunately. Mtsmallwood ( talk) 19:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
151.136.147.71 ( talk) 10:33, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
See: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.106.16 ( talk) 11:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
just don't make sense. Vaivara is 230 km distance from Klooga. And the quote from Birn's article relates not to the liquidation of the camp. -- Dodo19 ( talk) 15:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I have restored the deleted content, these issues are well sourced. The article itself is however a total mess – the two incidents do not need their own sections. I would prefer reverting back to this old version from 8 January 2009. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 17:20, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
In about 20 edits I have now managed to patch together much of the sourced content in the original version. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 20:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
In this edit on 22 April 2010 by Jaan ( talk · contribs) he replaced the sourced info about Estonian collaboration in the extermination of the Klooga concentration camp with opposite but sourced information about the non-involvement in the liquidation of the Vaivara concentration camp. I have reverted the removal of the sourced information. Jaan did however provide this source, which is no longer used:
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link)-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 20:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
An excellent source would be Anton Weiss-Wendt's book "Murder without hatred" - no one can accuse him of having any Estonian sympathies, quite the opposite. His numbers are very similar to History Commission's findings (actually, even slightly lower) and reached completely independently.
Also, I don't think the death of Soviet POW's can be included to Holocaust numbers, but, then again, I am not a specialist on that area. It might be better to use non-Soviet sources, as Soviet ones are not especially known for accuracy. Do Soviet numbers include the number of soldiers killed in battles, perhaps? Otherwise the discrepancy is just too big.
The total death toll in Nazi-occupied Estonia (1941-1944) according to
Anton Weiss-Wendt (p351):
Group | Deaths |
---|---|
Lithuanian and Latvian Jews | 5572 |
Estonian Jews | 963 |
Czech Jews | 954 |
German Jews | 917 |
French Jews | 185 |
Russian Jews (POWs) | 16 |
Finnish Jews | 7 |
Ethnic Estonians | 5412 |
Ethnic Russians | 1185 |
Gypsies | 800 |
Ethnic Latvians | 17 |
Soviet POWs | 15000 |