This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Yeah, shoot me. Took this out:
It would only include his last name: lehrerium (try saying that ten times in a row). But, um, this observation isn't so funny that we have to put it in the article so the readers can chuckle with us. No offense. 82.92.119.11 22:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The above discussions are all quite old, and now the full text of the song is on this page again. Does this infringe copyright? Contrary to Skylark's argument above I would posit that both the idea of setting the elements to music and the actual lyrics are copyrightable, and now that Tom Lehrer has done it any other attempt would potentially be plagiarism. I would imagine that the process of writing this song was quite creative - Tom Lehrer probably worked out a verse metre that would support a rhyming scheme which fit all the elements in, and then cast around for a tune, rather than choosing the tune first. Whatever, I'm pretty certain that Wikipedia doesn't own the copyright of the lyrics of this song. (I'm not a lawyer. I'm also quite a new Wikipedian so be gentle with me.) -- RobertG 16:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone had put the full lyrics back. Per the discussion above, I shortened it again to opening and closing lines, which probably is fair use. Please do not put the full song in again as that is almost certainly a copyright violation. Jonathunder 14:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What's with the different colours for the order number in the "Lehrer periodic table"? Shouldn't this be explained in the article somewhere? Grutness... wha? 11:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The whole concept of a "Lehrer atomic number", on which the Lehrer Periodic Table is based, seems to be the invention of whichever wikipedian added that section, and so falls foul of WP:NOR. If we really wanted to report the ordering of all the elements in the song then we could do so in a plain and factual format, not embellished with our own creativity, provided that it's not a copyright violation (on which I don't know one way or the other). But anyway in my opinion the entire ordering is in any event not really necessary, beyond making the rather general observation that elements are grouped together according to the sound of the words rather than the ordering in the periodic table (and perhaps giving one or two examples of this), and as others have said there are numerous other sites where people can find the entire lyrics if they want them. Sorry, but I'm going to lose this section from the article. Arbitrary username 19:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the genre of this song? Elfred 18:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone post the full lyrics here? I've looked on the internet, and every copy of the lyrics I find sounds wrong when I listen to the song. In part of the song, Lehrer says "Europium, zirconium, lutetium, vanadium." However, it sounds a lot like he is saying "Europium, zirconium, rutecium, vanadium," and Rutecium is not an element. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elfred ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
"the final rhyme of "Harvard" and "discovered" is delivered in a parody of a Boston accent, i.e. non-rhotic so that the two words rhyme." — I suppose this may also be a reference to the MIT, right? If so, it might be worth mentioning; I'm not going to put it in myself, though, since I'm just guessing. :) -- Schneelocke 07:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I went and listened to my copy of the song, sung by Lehrer, and he does mispronounce "mercury" in the song. However, is there any evidence that we aren't all listening to the same mistake, rather than this being done on purpose? And how would anyone cite this? Thoughts? Loggie ( talk) 17:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
As discussed above several times, quoting part of the lyrics to the song is permitted under WP:FU guidelines. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 22:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
You could think about adding a section about references in pop culture. I'm sure there must be plenty and I know of the top of my head that an NCIS episode featured it with a filter applied to the computer isolated about four elements whose atomic numbers had something to do with an off-shore bank account. Terrorist was caught yada-yada besides the point. If people can come up with a few more references maybe you should add a section. Althalitus ( talk) 11:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
An editor added a new section with a table of the elements in the order sung in the song. Should we keep this or delete it? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 02:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I Heard that the song contained some made up elements (like Healthcare products he randomly included in the song). I don’t know which ones they were, but if somebody could confirm which ones they are it would be nice to see them in the article and be able to fallow a link to an article about them to find out what they actually are.-- E-Bod 05:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I think he made a version based off of Greek elements.It took me a while but its there. "there's fire earth water and air"-- Commander v99 ( talk) 21:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
the "Periodic Table according to Lehrer" section gives a standard periodic table, with only the atomic numbers changed around. For a lark, I've created one that substitutes the elements and ignores the elements not mentioned in the song from memory. However, while it's closer to the "Periodic Table according to Lehrer", it's kinda creeping towards copyright infringement, though to be honest the one in there at the moment is on just as shaky ground. Any opinions on whether it'd make sense to replace it with the following?
Folded. Quite old really, and there are
Templates now, maintained.
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- DePiep ( talk) 04:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC) (folded)
GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 13:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Although I consider the periodic tables gimmicky and unnecessary, I don't really care either way. What I feel should be cleared up is the misconception that we would in any way be violating copyright with such a paraphrasing of the song. The song is copyrighted; the particular ordering of the elements is a concept and cannot be copyrighted.
The table is not a derivative work, since it does not incorporate copyrightable aspects of the original. Maybe the combination of the table and instructions to sing out the English names of the elements it lists, in order, to the tune of The Major-General's Song, plugging in small words to bridge the meter where appropriate might be considered a derivative work, but I doubt it.
Of course, this discussion is purely academic. The Elements would be the last song we would get in actual trouble for.
My initial remarks about the periodic tables notwithstanding: your version makes no sense. Those colored groups are there for a reason, and Lehrer's order doesn't preserve any of the regularity of the element groups. You can't very well go around calling krypton an actinide... 82.92.119.11 22:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
In the 19th century, someone tried to fit the elements into the tune of Gaudeamus igitur: [1], page 68. The elements are arranged in the order of descending electronegativity, first used by Berzelius. Burzuchius ( talk) 17:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi Ssilvers and anyone else who might have this page on their watchlist. At some point in the past we had this
[9] in the external links section. While the new one er I mean current one since I don't know when the change occurred - is fine I have an affection for this one. Particularly the way the list the elements that "Haven't Been Discovered" at the end. It actually gives there names of the elements while the current one only shows their place on the table. If you prefer the current one that is fine but I wonder if we could have both of them. If not no problems. Thanks ahead of time for any responses.
MarnetteD |
Talk
22:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
This article is about the Tom Lehrer's song not about actual table. We do not need a huge copy of the table (see WP:UNDUE) at the bottom of the article. The one in the top right is sufficient for the readers needs. The large one overwhelms the article with info that the reader is not looking for. Anyone who does become interested in the table has a link in the lede and can click on the table that already exists. MarnetteD | Talk 02:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, since we now have nine more named elements discovered since this song was first recorded, what would you think about extending the song to mention those newest elements? Here's an extra verse that I came up with:
I know it's not great, but whaddaya all think?
-- Denelson 83 05:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Switch Hassium and Rutherfordium. TestingTesting 23:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't need to go in the article, but...
*not my lyric Squee3 ( talk) 03:21, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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re The Elements (song) and DavidWBrooks reversing: I disagree. The paragraph itself mentions alliteration, i.e., a rhyming form. Then saying more about regular rhyming forms, end rhyme, is to the point in there. More so since the elenments do have a name-ending pattern. And so to the article, which is about a song. Please reinstall my edit. - DePiep ( talk) 18:04, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
The song has been parodied in the Drugs song by Amateur Transplants. It's obvious to me, and will be obvious to anybody who listens to both songs (compare Elements and Drugs at YouTube). But being obvious to me is not enough, it may be just my opinion. Can anybody provide an independent source to support it?
And is the fact important enough to be included...? -- CiaPan ( talk) 20:23, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Is the we-aren't-violating-copyright statement of "(fair use quote from a copyrighted work)" necessary? How is such a quote unlike any other quotes that we use in the biographies? Do we need to all such quotes in WP?
It's visually unpleasant and distracting. -- Menchi 12:04 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As I figured might happen, somebody just put the entire lyrics in this article (because Lehrer has released them into public domain). I removed them - wikipedia is not a lyrics compendium, even when they're legal, any more than we're a collection of recipes. We include snippets of lyrics when they help the reader understand the topic but not a data dump. This guide describes it better: [11] - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 15:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Yeah, shoot me. Took this out:
It would only include his last name: lehrerium (try saying that ten times in a row). But, um, this observation isn't so funny that we have to put it in the article so the readers can chuckle with us. No offense. 82.92.119.11 22:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The above discussions are all quite old, and now the full text of the song is on this page again. Does this infringe copyright? Contrary to Skylark's argument above I would posit that both the idea of setting the elements to music and the actual lyrics are copyrightable, and now that Tom Lehrer has done it any other attempt would potentially be plagiarism. I would imagine that the process of writing this song was quite creative - Tom Lehrer probably worked out a verse metre that would support a rhyming scheme which fit all the elements in, and then cast around for a tune, rather than choosing the tune first. Whatever, I'm pretty certain that Wikipedia doesn't own the copyright of the lyrics of this song. (I'm not a lawyer. I'm also quite a new Wikipedian so be gentle with me.) -- RobertG 16:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone had put the full lyrics back. Per the discussion above, I shortened it again to opening and closing lines, which probably is fair use. Please do not put the full song in again as that is almost certainly a copyright violation. Jonathunder 14:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What's with the different colours for the order number in the "Lehrer periodic table"? Shouldn't this be explained in the article somewhere? Grutness... wha? 11:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The whole concept of a "Lehrer atomic number", on which the Lehrer Periodic Table is based, seems to be the invention of whichever wikipedian added that section, and so falls foul of WP:NOR. If we really wanted to report the ordering of all the elements in the song then we could do so in a plain and factual format, not embellished with our own creativity, provided that it's not a copyright violation (on which I don't know one way or the other). But anyway in my opinion the entire ordering is in any event not really necessary, beyond making the rather general observation that elements are grouped together according to the sound of the words rather than the ordering in the periodic table (and perhaps giving one or two examples of this), and as others have said there are numerous other sites where people can find the entire lyrics if they want them. Sorry, but I'm going to lose this section from the article. Arbitrary username 19:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the genre of this song? Elfred 18:22, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Could someone post the full lyrics here? I've looked on the internet, and every copy of the lyrics I find sounds wrong when I listen to the song. In part of the song, Lehrer says "Europium, zirconium, lutetium, vanadium." However, it sounds a lot like he is saying "Europium, zirconium, rutecium, vanadium," and Rutecium is not an element. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elfred ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
"the final rhyme of "Harvard" and "discovered" is delivered in a parody of a Boston accent, i.e. non-rhotic so that the two words rhyme." — I suppose this may also be a reference to the MIT, right? If so, it might be worth mentioning; I'm not going to put it in myself, though, since I'm just guessing. :) -- Schneelocke 07:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I went and listened to my copy of the song, sung by Lehrer, and he does mispronounce "mercury" in the song. However, is there any evidence that we aren't all listening to the same mistake, rather than this being done on purpose? And how would anyone cite this? Thoughts? Loggie ( talk) 17:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
As discussed above several times, quoting part of the lyrics to the song is permitted under WP:FU guidelines. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 22:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
You could think about adding a section about references in pop culture. I'm sure there must be plenty and I know of the top of my head that an NCIS episode featured it with a filter applied to the computer isolated about four elements whose atomic numbers had something to do with an off-shore bank account. Terrorist was caught yada-yada besides the point. If people can come up with a few more references maybe you should add a section. Althalitus ( talk) 11:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
An editor added a new section with a table of the elements in the order sung in the song. Should we keep this or delete it? -- Ssilvers ( talk) 02:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I Heard that the song contained some made up elements (like Healthcare products he randomly included in the song). I don’t know which ones they were, but if somebody could confirm which ones they are it would be nice to see them in the article and be able to fallow a link to an article about them to find out what they actually are.-- E-Bod 05:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I think he made a version based off of Greek elements.It took me a while but its there. "there's fire earth water and air"-- Commander v99 ( talk) 21:53, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
the "Periodic Table according to Lehrer" section gives a standard periodic table, with only the atomic numbers changed around. For a lark, I've created one that substitutes the elements and ignores the elements not mentioned in the song from memory. However, while it's closer to the "Periodic Table according to Lehrer", it's kinda creeping towards copyright infringement, though to be honest the one in there at the moment is on just as shaky ground. Any opinions on whether it'd make sense to replace it with the following?
Folded. Quite old really, and there are
Templates now, maintained.
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- DePiep ( talk) 04:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC) (folded)
GeeJo (t)⁄ (c) • 13:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Although I consider the periodic tables gimmicky and unnecessary, I don't really care either way. What I feel should be cleared up is the misconception that we would in any way be violating copyright with such a paraphrasing of the song. The song is copyrighted; the particular ordering of the elements is a concept and cannot be copyrighted.
The table is not a derivative work, since it does not incorporate copyrightable aspects of the original. Maybe the combination of the table and instructions to sing out the English names of the elements it lists, in order, to the tune of The Major-General's Song, plugging in small words to bridge the meter where appropriate might be considered a derivative work, but I doubt it.
Of course, this discussion is purely academic. The Elements would be the last song we would get in actual trouble for.
My initial remarks about the periodic tables notwithstanding: your version makes no sense. Those colored groups are there for a reason, and Lehrer's order doesn't preserve any of the regularity of the element groups. You can't very well go around calling krypton an actinide... 82.92.119.11 22:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
In the 19th century, someone tried to fit the elements into the tune of Gaudeamus igitur: [1], page 68. The elements are arranged in the order of descending electronegativity, first used by Berzelius. Burzuchius ( talk) 17:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi Ssilvers and anyone else who might have this page on their watchlist. At some point in the past we had this
[9] in the external links section. While the new one er I mean current one since I don't know when the change occurred - is fine I have an affection for this one. Particularly the way the list the elements that "Haven't Been Discovered" at the end. It actually gives there names of the elements while the current one only shows their place on the table. If you prefer the current one that is fine but I wonder if we could have both of them. If not no problems. Thanks ahead of time for any responses.
MarnetteD |
Talk
22:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
This article is about the Tom Lehrer's song not about actual table. We do not need a huge copy of the table (see WP:UNDUE) at the bottom of the article. The one in the top right is sufficient for the readers needs. The large one overwhelms the article with info that the reader is not looking for. Anyone who does become interested in the table has a link in the lede and can click on the table that already exists. MarnetteD | Talk 02:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, since we now have nine more named elements discovered since this song was first recorded, what would you think about extending the song to mention those newest elements? Here's an extra verse that I came up with:
I know it's not great, but whaddaya all think?
-- Denelson 83 05:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Switch Hassium and Rutherfordium. TestingTesting 23:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
This doesn't need to go in the article, but...
*not my lyric Squee3 ( talk) 03:21, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on The Elements (song). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:48, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
re The Elements (song) and DavidWBrooks reversing: I disagree. The paragraph itself mentions alliteration, i.e., a rhyming form. Then saying more about regular rhyming forms, end rhyme, is to the point in there. More so since the elenments do have a name-ending pattern. And so to the article, which is about a song. Please reinstall my edit. - DePiep ( talk) 18:04, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
The song has been parodied in the Drugs song by Amateur Transplants. It's obvious to me, and will be obvious to anybody who listens to both songs (compare Elements and Drugs at YouTube). But being obvious to me is not enough, it may be just my opinion. Can anybody provide an independent source to support it?
And is the fact important enough to be included...? -- CiaPan ( talk) 20:23, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Is the we-aren't-violating-copyright statement of "(fair use quote from a copyrighted work)" necessary? How is such a quote unlike any other quotes that we use in the biographies? Do we need to all such quotes in WP?
It's visually unpleasant and distracting. -- Menchi 12:04 23 Jun 2003 (UTC)
As I figured might happen, somebody just put the entire lyrics in this article (because Lehrer has released them into public domain). I removed them - wikipedia is not a lyrics compendium, even when they're legal, any more than we're a collection of recipes. We include snippets of lyrics when they help the reader understand the topic but not a data dump. This guide describes it better: [11] - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 15:01, 21 October 2020 (UTC)