This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
IMHO, this is where the Greer material belongs. For convenience sake, a Word version of the below can be seen at https://1drv.ms/w/s!ApIWbgSY4gIzgohvClFYp63l0hHoQw?e=MYO93d
HISTORY SECTION (clarifications, addition)
Tucker Carlson has no editorial control over The Daily Caller or its hiring policies. The ultimate editorial authority at TDC resides with publisher Neil Patel, a non-white immigrant who has voiced his rejection of “white nationalism.” The Daily Caller came under fire in September 2018 after Scott Greer, a former Deputy Editor was found to have secretly contributed under a pseudonym to a white nationalist publication. Greer left The Daily Caller in June, three months before his exposure by The Atlantic as a white nationalist. Patel said that that while the Caller was initially skeptical of the SPLC’s allegations against Greer prior to The Atlantic’s expose, “We had two choices: Fire a young man because of some photos taken of him at metal shows in college or take his word. We chose to trust him,” Patel said. “Now we know that trust was a mistake, we know he lied to us. We won’t publish him, anyone in these circles, or anyone who thinks like them. People who associate with these losers have no business writing for our company.”1
Another contributor – not an employee -- was also exposed as the organizer behind the violent “Unite the Right” rally that resulted in the death of an activist. The Caller’s own video reporting of the “Unite the Right” rally was distributed by the ACLU and used as evidence in the prosecution and sentencing of white supremacists caught on camera beating a black man in a parking garage.2
RATIONALE:
Because this speaks to the internal activities of TDC, it makes sense to be explained/contextualized in the history of TDC. Further, because so much of the article implies an approval of white nationalism, readers deserve to know what TDC’s position on that is, Patel’s background, and his admission that trusting Greer was a mistake.
CITATIONS:
2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WtyNGKdxQY
CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 16:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Some editors have noted elsewhere that the way the entire article is framed up, TDC is made out to be a organization "known" for publishing "false stories" and then is followed by cherry-picked examples categorized as "Controversies." I've looked around and don't see any legitimate publications treated this way. Rather than denying/debating the specific erroneous stories, it seems to me that the true academic mission here -- rather than one of political characterizations designed to discredit TDC in its entirety -- is to show readers that there are MANY stories that the TDC published that both target right-wing or conservative outfits, and these same stories broken by TDC have been followed by unquestionably reliable news organizations, often crediting TDC.
The sheer volume of such stories far outweighs any "bothsidesism" of pointing out minor things for the sake of just calling for "fairness": What we have here is an avoidance of a broader, more inclusive list with which readers can make up their own minds as to TDC's legitimacy. I hope to upload this section in the next few days. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 17:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Breaking news stories followed or cited by leading news organizations(which is, a priori, a legitimate thing to do), secondary sources for items 10 and 11 would be necessary to show the interest from
leading news organizations. (The "politicalticker.blogs.cnn" item may be too superficial to merit including, but that's not a decision of great moment either way.) Reporting allegations or speculations that Bachmann was abusing drugs without follow-up sourcing would violate WP:BLP. At the time, even left-leaning commentators didn't want to go there. As it happens, the Wikipedia article on her doesn't even mention her migraines. That the Caller was the first to post news of Hodgkinson's death seems too incidental to rise above the significance threshold; it's not really an example of in-depth reporting that another news organization then leaned upon. I don't think there's a policy case one way or the other on that. The same goes for the FBI happening to interview Clinton on a particular Saturday; NBC described that interview as
long-awaitedand points to the Caller noting some rumors about it 11 grafs into a 20-graf story. XOR'easter ( talk) 01:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
The story was poorly sourced and drew more skepticism than accolades. (Found via the RfC linked at WP:RSP.) An older CJR piece already cited in our article says,
Yet the Caller's first story on the filings incorrectly implied Steele himself had been behind the velvet rope, in the presence of topless performers simulating lesbian sex. That off note hinted at what was to come: a series of splashy stories that, when examined, produced more skepticism than pick-up, and caused new hecklers to raise their voices.XOR'easter ( talk) 16:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps a better approach towards clarity and neutrality would to be to instead call this section "Daily Caller's Coverage" and change the opening line from "Breaking news stories followed or cited by leading news organizations include.." simply to "Coverage by The Daily Caller includes..." I added the followed by/cited by language to try and get across that they are a legitimate news publisher. We can leave the additional citations where other news orgs picked up the story without having to add it to text.
Yes, they've erred, but as I said before, all we have now is a cherry-picked "catalog of sins." I also have to reiterate that in a reticence to change anything at all, it seems to me you're kind of nit-picking the legitimate stories to death and inserting your own news judgment for theirs. The fact that NBC said Hillary Clinton's interview "was expected" doesn't take away from the fact that TDC CONFIRMED it, and was First with it. Also, you dismiss the reporting of Hodgkinson's death as not significant enough. OK, (I mean he *did* try and kill Congresspersons) but there are plenty more examples of fair reporting in the public interest, and this article seems to go out of its way to mention *any* of them. The Daily Caller published extensively on the opioid crisis, and was first to break the story that the Metropolitan Museum of Art began reviewing its gift acceptance policies after information about the billionaire Sackler family's antic with Oxycontin were revealed. https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/17/sackler-family-met-museum/. Another TDC story revealed the Sackler's wide-spread political donations: https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/17/sackler-family-met-museum/. That's pretty important stuff.
At the end of the day, I'm really hoping that WP editors can take a step back, and consider rolling a lot of the article into one concise and solid section ("Coverage") showing that some stories are important, some stories badly written/false, whatever. Right now, the article in this regard reads like a papal condemnation of a heretic about to be excommunicated, just a litany of wrongdoing. I totally get that you don't like TDC or its coverage, and I've made it clear that I'm not trying to hide their faults or errors, but as you know, the phrase is "warts and all" not "warts, warts, warts." We're totally missing the "all."
Surely, there must be a way to do this. As always, thanks for your time, respect and consideration. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
We can leave the additional citations where other news orgs picked up the story without having to add it to text.No, we really can't, not when the blowback and criticism and discoveries of bias or elisions in their coverage of legitimately significant topics is what the secondary sources are telling us about. I have no objection in principle to listing stories they've broken that have held up, but I have an obligation to be conscientious and not present busts or mixed successes as total triumphs, or to imply that reporting a datum is of equal magnitude and consequence to revealing a major story. XOR'easter ( talk) 15:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I've taken in a lot of the substantive discussion above, and there seems to be consensus (to some degree) that the article could be improved, although to what degree remains to be seen. I am going to take the cue from XOR'easter /info/en/?search=User_talk:XOR%27easter and have a look at how The Sun and other tabs have been handled, and try and draft something whole. That said, I'm a bit suprised at his comment that any change that would "involve removal of cited content, [which] is guaranteed to get Wikipedians' hackles up (people get prickly when they see negative numbers in their watchlists)." I don't understand at all if there is a place in WP for being proprietary about past work, or what "negative numbers in their watchlist" even means. Does that mean that if an article is revised and a cite deleted, it counts as some kind of demerit against the editor? That can't possibly be right, because it de-incentivizes any evolution or change to an article. WP editors, as far as I can see, do a good job of serving the public interest, and I'm awfully sure that individual pride of authorship takes a backseat to that public interest. If I'm missing something, it would be helpful to hear. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 15:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Thanks much User talk:Cullen328 and MastCell: I get it. Taking all the advice above on-board, see the short "proposed edits 12-3". CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
I'm surprised that their investigation of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Imran Awan doesn't have any coverage here. They were all over that story in 2017. [2] [3] Am I missing something or was it just never written about here yet? – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 17:28, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit by Snooganssnoogans which inserted this: "In 2013, The Daily Caller published a doctored photograph which purported to show Joe Biden groping a White House reporter with the title, "Vice President Joe Biden gropes White House reporter."[25] No, it did not publish a doctored photograph. Look at the cited source -- this factcheck.org article. Notice how it says that the doctored photo showed a chest grope and a whiskey bottle? Notice how it says those items weren't in the original picture? Well, now notice what it links to for the original picture -- The Daily Caller! That's because The Daily Caller published the original picture not the doctored photo. The link from factcheck.org has now become obsolete but here is the wayback of the original Daily Caller post, which has no chest grope or whiskey bottle. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 16:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
It has been suggested that I focus on one thing, and here it is. If this looks like a mess (I'm no coder) you can see a comparison sheet (before/after) at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TmkdidVPf4plAdMnPotZaejOVJ4Wh0NG. I do not know how to show citations.
Material in bold is added. PLEASE NOTE THAT NONE OF THE 'NEGATIVE" STUFF HAS BEEN EDITED OUT.
AS IT IS NOW: The Daily Caller is a right-wing news and opinion website based in Washington, D.C. It was founded by Fox News host Tucker Carlson and political pundit Neil Patel in 2010. Launched as a "conservative answer to The Huffington Post", The Daily Caller quadrupled its audience and became profitable by 2012, surpassing several rival websites by 2013. The Daily Caller is a member of the White House press pool. The Daily Caller has frequently published false stories, as well as shared deceptively edited videos and photos. The website publishes articles that dispute the scientific consensus on climate change. The website has published articles by white supremacists, such as Jason Kessler and Peter Brimelow. Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that he published articles espousing white nationalist, racist anti-black and antisemitic views under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications. It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation, to avoid taxes.
SUGGESTED EDITS: The Daily Caller is a conservative news and opinion website based in Washington, D.C. It was founded by Fox News host Tucker Carlson and political pundit Neil Patel in 2010. Launched as a "conservative answer to The Huffington Post", The Daily Caller quadrupled its audience and became profitable by 2012. The Daily Caller is credentialed at the White House press pool and the U.S. Senate Press gallery. Carlson does not have editorial input at The Daily Caller. The Daily Caller publishes a wide range of controversial stories investigating both liberal and conservative entities,' and some stories have been proven false. The Daily Caller has also been accused of sharing deceptively edited videos and photos. 'The website has published articles ranging from exposes of the Sackler billionaire family’s involvement in the opioid drug crisis, to challenging the scientific consensus on climate change, Republican mismanagement of donations and President Trump’s National Security Advisor Mike Flynn’s ties to the Turkish government. The Daily Caller has also published opinion pieces ranging from the Democratic National Committee staffer and former aide to President Obama Luis Miranda, conservative news analyst Judge Jeanine Pirro, Socialist educator Glenn Sacks, and history professor and impeachment advocate Allan J. Lichtman.' The website has also published opinion columns by white supremacists such as Jason Kessler and Peter Brimelow on subjects other than white supremacy. Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that unbeknownst to The Daily Caller, he published articles under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications espousing white nationalist, racist and antisemitic views. It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation (“DCNF”) to avoid taxes, although the DCNF still maintains its 501(c)3 tax status.
Sources:
https://www.dailypress.senate.gov/?page_id=9213 "On Christian Political Apostasy as The Source Of America's Greatest Peril" at http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/25/on-christian-political-aposta sy-as-the-source-of-americas-greatest-peril/. “The President’s Wall Confession Should Have Been the End of the Shutdown” at https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/20/miranda-wall-confession “Conservatives Shouldn’t Ignore Socialism’s Successes” at https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/06/sacks-socialism-successes
Thanks all for your valuable time. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
The bold section beginning with "The website has published . . ." seems to be sourced to the respective Daily Caller articles themselves. Although it is an undisputed fact that Daily Caller published the articles in question, the determination that this particular set of articles is representative of the whole was made by a Wikipedia editor and therefore violates our Original research policy. The problem with original research is that it can easily be abused to push a certain viewpoint. Why emphasize the range of opinion pieces when we could just as easily say that they cover everything from puppies to rainbows or Stalin to Hitler? This is why we rely on secondary sources to decide what is significant. – dlthewave ☎ 04:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
XOR'easter: You alerted Guy about CharlesGlasserEsq's actions on this talk page. WP:CANVASS says you should balance by also informing editors who might support some of CharlesGlasserEsq's proposal. Did you? Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 15:21, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I have partially reverted an edit by Snooganssnoogans which inserted this among other things: "The Daily Caller has frequently published false stories, as well as shared deceptively edited videos and photos." The edit summary said "lede should summarize body" but the words "shared deceptively edited videos and photos" no longer reflect what is in the body. Recently a mention of a deceptively edited video was removed (see this thread starting with the fifth post). Recently a mention of a deceptively edited photo was removed (see this thread). So the body only mentions one deceptively edited video and no deceptively edited photo. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 16:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I have removed this sentence from the lead: "It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation, to avoid taxes." The accuser is Lisa Graves whom Wikipedia describes as a "progressive activist"; the body identifies her -- but the lead didn't, a WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV violation. There was also a non-accuser, a professor who specializes in tax law saying the Daily Caller's conduct appears to be legal/acceptable; the body quotes him -- but the lead didn't, a WP:BALANCE violation. And only a few weeks ago I noticed that the New York Times was accused of paying zero federal income tax (which of course wasn't worthy of mention in our New York Times article), making me suspect that it's common when X's opponent says X doesn't pay a fair share of taxes. I conclude that this isn't a summary of the requirement that the lead have a summary of the article's "most important contents", and so is a WP:LEAD violation. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 23:47, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello all. I'm just back from a string of illnesses and injury that kept me offline for a while. Here's what I would like to ask you: The second graf is a bit unclear about the Greer business. Might I suggest it be changed from:
"Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that he published articles espousing white nationalist, racist anti-black and antisemitic views under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications."
to:
"Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that under a pseudonym he published articles in white nationalist publications espousing racist, anti-black and antisemitic views."
The reason for the edit request is that the graf could (and should) be clearer that the racist crap was published elsewhere, NOT The Daily Caller. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 14:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Upon being confronted with his past white supremacist writings, Greer resigned from any affiliation with The Daily Caller.I suppose we could work the main text's mention of Radix Journal into the lede to make the lede more specific, but on the other hand, excess specificity may be overkill. XOR'easter ( talk) 18:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
deputy editor until June 2018; later it was revealedis fine by me — I had preferred to have a little more detail there, but with the fuller explanation down in the body text, I don't think that's obligatory. XOR'easter ( talk) 16:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks all, CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 18:34, 31 January 2020 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
I have partially reverted edits by Snooganssnoogans in the body and the lead about Scott Greer. As is clear from this discussion, the edits had some factual errors and there has been opposition. Mr Greer is a living person so WP:NOCONSENSUS and WP:BLP say that re-insertion of the errors and the over-emphasis requires consensus -- although perhaps there will be consensus. Other editors should indicate whether or not the reversion should be re-reverted. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 15:57, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
IMHO, this is where the Greer material belongs. For convenience sake, a Word version of the below can be seen at https://1drv.ms/w/s!ApIWbgSY4gIzgohvClFYp63l0hHoQw?e=MYO93d
HISTORY SECTION (clarifications, addition)
Tucker Carlson has no editorial control over The Daily Caller or its hiring policies. The ultimate editorial authority at TDC resides with publisher Neil Patel, a non-white immigrant who has voiced his rejection of “white nationalism.” The Daily Caller came under fire in September 2018 after Scott Greer, a former Deputy Editor was found to have secretly contributed under a pseudonym to a white nationalist publication. Greer left The Daily Caller in June, three months before his exposure by The Atlantic as a white nationalist. Patel said that that while the Caller was initially skeptical of the SPLC’s allegations against Greer prior to The Atlantic’s expose, “We had two choices: Fire a young man because of some photos taken of him at metal shows in college or take his word. We chose to trust him,” Patel said. “Now we know that trust was a mistake, we know he lied to us. We won’t publish him, anyone in these circles, or anyone who thinks like them. People who associate with these losers have no business writing for our company.”1
Another contributor – not an employee -- was also exposed as the organizer behind the violent “Unite the Right” rally that resulted in the death of an activist. The Caller’s own video reporting of the “Unite the Right” rally was distributed by the ACLU and used as evidence in the prosecution and sentencing of white supremacists caught on camera beating a black man in a parking garage.2
RATIONALE:
Because this speaks to the internal activities of TDC, it makes sense to be explained/contextualized in the history of TDC. Further, because so much of the article implies an approval of white nationalism, readers deserve to know what TDC’s position on that is, Patel’s background, and his admission that trusting Greer was a mistake.
CITATIONS:
2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WtyNGKdxQY
CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 16:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Some editors have noted elsewhere that the way the entire article is framed up, TDC is made out to be a organization "known" for publishing "false stories" and then is followed by cherry-picked examples categorized as "Controversies." I've looked around and don't see any legitimate publications treated this way. Rather than denying/debating the specific erroneous stories, it seems to me that the true academic mission here -- rather than one of political characterizations designed to discredit TDC in its entirety -- is to show readers that there are MANY stories that the TDC published that both target right-wing or conservative outfits, and these same stories broken by TDC have been followed by unquestionably reliable news organizations, often crediting TDC.
The sheer volume of such stories far outweighs any "bothsidesism" of pointing out minor things for the sake of just calling for "fairness": What we have here is an avoidance of a broader, more inclusive list with which readers can make up their own minds as to TDC's legitimacy. I hope to upload this section in the next few days. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 17:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Breaking news stories followed or cited by leading news organizations(which is, a priori, a legitimate thing to do), secondary sources for items 10 and 11 would be necessary to show the interest from
leading news organizations. (The "politicalticker.blogs.cnn" item may be too superficial to merit including, but that's not a decision of great moment either way.) Reporting allegations or speculations that Bachmann was abusing drugs without follow-up sourcing would violate WP:BLP. At the time, even left-leaning commentators didn't want to go there. As it happens, the Wikipedia article on her doesn't even mention her migraines. That the Caller was the first to post news of Hodgkinson's death seems too incidental to rise above the significance threshold; it's not really an example of in-depth reporting that another news organization then leaned upon. I don't think there's a policy case one way or the other on that. The same goes for the FBI happening to interview Clinton on a particular Saturday; NBC described that interview as
long-awaitedand points to the Caller noting some rumors about it 11 grafs into a 20-graf story. XOR'easter ( talk) 01:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
The story was poorly sourced and drew more skepticism than accolades. (Found via the RfC linked at WP:RSP.) An older CJR piece already cited in our article says,
Yet the Caller's first story on the filings incorrectly implied Steele himself had been behind the velvet rope, in the presence of topless performers simulating lesbian sex. That off note hinted at what was to come: a series of splashy stories that, when examined, produced more skepticism than pick-up, and caused new hecklers to raise their voices.XOR'easter ( talk) 16:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps a better approach towards clarity and neutrality would to be to instead call this section "Daily Caller's Coverage" and change the opening line from "Breaking news stories followed or cited by leading news organizations include.." simply to "Coverage by The Daily Caller includes..." I added the followed by/cited by language to try and get across that they are a legitimate news publisher. We can leave the additional citations where other news orgs picked up the story without having to add it to text.
Yes, they've erred, but as I said before, all we have now is a cherry-picked "catalog of sins." I also have to reiterate that in a reticence to change anything at all, it seems to me you're kind of nit-picking the legitimate stories to death and inserting your own news judgment for theirs. The fact that NBC said Hillary Clinton's interview "was expected" doesn't take away from the fact that TDC CONFIRMED it, and was First with it. Also, you dismiss the reporting of Hodgkinson's death as not significant enough. OK, (I mean he *did* try and kill Congresspersons) but there are plenty more examples of fair reporting in the public interest, and this article seems to go out of its way to mention *any* of them. The Daily Caller published extensively on the opioid crisis, and was first to break the story that the Metropolitan Museum of Art began reviewing its gift acceptance policies after information about the billionaire Sackler family's antic with Oxycontin were revealed. https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/17/sackler-family-met-museum/. Another TDC story revealed the Sackler's wide-spread political donations: https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/17/sackler-family-met-museum/. That's pretty important stuff.
At the end of the day, I'm really hoping that WP editors can take a step back, and consider rolling a lot of the article into one concise and solid section ("Coverage") showing that some stories are important, some stories badly written/false, whatever. Right now, the article in this regard reads like a papal condemnation of a heretic about to be excommunicated, just a litany of wrongdoing. I totally get that you don't like TDC or its coverage, and I've made it clear that I'm not trying to hide their faults or errors, but as you know, the phrase is "warts and all" not "warts, warts, warts." We're totally missing the "all."
Surely, there must be a way to do this. As always, thanks for your time, respect and consideration. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
We can leave the additional citations where other news orgs picked up the story without having to add it to text.No, we really can't, not when the blowback and criticism and discoveries of bias or elisions in their coverage of legitimately significant topics is what the secondary sources are telling us about. I have no objection in principle to listing stories they've broken that have held up, but I have an obligation to be conscientious and not present busts or mixed successes as total triumphs, or to imply that reporting a datum is of equal magnitude and consequence to revealing a major story. XOR'easter ( talk) 15:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I've taken in a lot of the substantive discussion above, and there seems to be consensus (to some degree) that the article could be improved, although to what degree remains to be seen. I am going to take the cue from XOR'easter /info/en/?search=User_talk:XOR%27easter and have a look at how The Sun and other tabs have been handled, and try and draft something whole. That said, I'm a bit suprised at his comment that any change that would "involve removal of cited content, [which] is guaranteed to get Wikipedians' hackles up (people get prickly when they see negative numbers in their watchlists)." I don't understand at all if there is a place in WP for being proprietary about past work, or what "negative numbers in their watchlist" even means. Does that mean that if an article is revised and a cite deleted, it counts as some kind of demerit against the editor? That can't possibly be right, because it de-incentivizes any evolution or change to an article. WP editors, as far as I can see, do a good job of serving the public interest, and I'm awfully sure that individual pride of authorship takes a backseat to that public interest. If I'm missing something, it would be helpful to hear. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 15:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Thanks much User talk:Cullen328 and MastCell: I get it. Taking all the advice above on-board, see the short "proposed edits 12-3". CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:19, 3 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
I'm surprised that their investigation of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Imran Awan doesn't have any coverage here. They were all over that story in 2017. [2] [3] Am I missing something or was it just never written about here yet? – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 17:28, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted an edit by Snooganssnoogans which inserted this: "In 2013, The Daily Caller published a doctored photograph which purported to show Joe Biden groping a White House reporter with the title, "Vice President Joe Biden gropes White House reporter."[25] No, it did not publish a doctored photograph. Look at the cited source -- this factcheck.org article. Notice how it says that the doctored photo showed a chest grope and a whiskey bottle? Notice how it says those items weren't in the original picture? Well, now notice what it links to for the original picture -- The Daily Caller! That's because The Daily Caller published the original picture not the doctored photo. The link from factcheck.org has now become obsolete but here is the wayback of the original Daily Caller post, which has no chest grope or whiskey bottle. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 16:03, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
It has been suggested that I focus on one thing, and here it is. If this looks like a mess (I'm no coder) you can see a comparison sheet (before/after) at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TmkdidVPf4plAdMnPotZaejOVJ4Wh0NG. I do not know how to show citations.
Material in bold is added. PLEASE NOTE THAT NONE OF THE 'NEGATIVE" STUFF HAS BEEN EDITED OUT.
AS IT IS NOW: The Daily Caller is a right-wing news and opinion website based in Washington, D.C. It was founded by Fox News host Tucker Carlson and political pundit Neil Patel in 2010. Launched as a "conservative answer to The Huffington Post", The Daily Caller quadrupled its audience and became profitable by 2012, surpassing several rival websites by 2013. The Daily Caller is a member of the White House press pool. The Daily Caller has frequently published false stories, as well as shared deceptively edited videos and photos. The website publishes articles that dispute the scientific consensus on climate change. The website has published articles by white supremacists, such as Jason Kessler and Peter Brimelow. Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that he published articles espousing white nationalist, racist anti-black and antisemitic views under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications. It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation, to avoid taxes.
SUGGESTED EDITS: The Daily Caller is a conservative news and opinion website based in Washington, D.C. It was founded by Fox News host Tucker Carlson and political pundit Neil Patel in 2010. Launched as a "conservative answer to The Huffington Post", The Daily Caller quadrupled its audience and became profitable by 2012. The Daily Caller is credentialed at the White House press pool and the U.S. Senate Press gallery. Carlson does not have editorial input at The Daily Caller. The Daily Caller publishes a wide range of controversial stories investigating both liberal and conservative entities,' and some stories have been proven false. The Daily Caller has also been accused of sharing deceptively edited videos and photos. 'The website has published articles ranging from exposes of the Sackler billionaire family’s involvement in the opioid drug crisis, to challenging the scientific consensus on climate change, Republican mismanagement of donations and President Trump’s National Security Advisor Mike Flynn’s ties to the Turkish government. The Daily Caller has also published opinion pieces ranging from the Democratic National Committee staffer and former aide to President Obama Luis Miranda, conservative news analyst Judge Jeanine Pirro, Socialist educator Glenn Sacks, and history professor and impeachment advocate Allan J. Lichtman.' The website has also published opinion columns by white supremacists such as Jason Kessler and Peter Brimelow on subjects other than white supremacy. Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that unbeknownst to The Daily Caller, he published articles under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications espousing white nationalist, racist and antisemitic views. It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation (“DCNF”) to avoid taxes, although the DCNF still maintains its 501(c)3 tax status.
Sources:
https://www.dailypress.senate.gov/?page_id=9213 "On Christian Political Apostasy as The Source Of America's Greatest Peril" at http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/25/on-christian-political-aposta sy-as-the-source-of-americas-greatest-peril/. “The President’s Wall Confession Should Have Been the End of the Shutdown” at https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/20/miranda-wall-confession “Conservatives Shouldn’t Ignore Socialism’s Successes” at https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/06/sacks-socialism-successes
Thanks all for your valuable time. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 13:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
The bold section beginning with "The website has published . . ." seems to be sourced to the respective Daily Caller articles themselves. Although it is an undisputed fact that Daily Caller published the articles in question, the determination that this particular set of articles is representative of the whole was made by a Wikipedia editor and therefore violates our Original research policy. The problem with original research is that it can easily be abused to push a certain viewpoint. Why emphasize the range of opinion pieces when we could just as easily say that they cover everything from puppies to rainbows or Stalin to Hitler? This is why we rely on secondary sources to decide what is significant. – dlthewave ☎ 04:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
XOR'easter: You alerted Guy about CharlesGlasserEsq's actions on this talk page. WP:CANVASS says you should balance by also informing editors who might support some of CharlesGlasserEsq's proposal. Did you? Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 15:21, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I have partially reverted an edit by Snooganssnoogans which inserted this among other things: "The Daily Caller has frequently published false stories, as well as shared deceptively edited videos and photos." The edit summary said "lede should summarize body" but the words "shared deceptively edited videos and photos" no longer reflect what is in the body. Recently a mention of a deceptively edited video was removed (see this thread starting with the fifth post). Recently a mention of a deceptively edited photo was removed (see this thread). So the body only mentions one deceptively edited video and no deceptively edited photo. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 16:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I have removed this sentence from the lead: "It has been accused of abusing its non-profit charity arm, The Daily Caller News Foundation, to avoid taxes." The accuser is Lisa Graves whom Wikipedia describes as a "progressive activist"; the body identifies her -- but the lead didn't, a WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV violation. There was also a non-accuser, a professor who specializes in tax law saying the Daily Caller's conduct appears to be legal/acceptable; the body quotes him -- but the lead didn't, a WP:BALANCE violation. And only a few weeks ago I noticed that the New York Times was accused of paying zero federal income tax (which of course wasn't worthy of mention in our New York Times article), making me suspect that it's common when X's opponent says X doesn't pay a fair share of taxes. I conclude that this isn't a summary of the requirement that the lead have a summary of the article's "most important contents", and so is a WP:LEAD violation. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 23:47, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello all. I'm just back from a string of illnesses and injury that kept me offline for a while. Here's what I would like to ask you: The second graf is a bit unclear about the Greer business. Might I suggest it be changed from:
"Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that he published articles espousing white nationalist, racist anti-black and antisemitic views under a pseudonym in white supremacist publications."
to:
"Scott Greer was The Daily Caller's deputy editor until 2018, when it was revealed that under a pseudonym he published articles in white nationalist publications espousing racist, anti-black and antisemitic views."
The reason for the edit request is that the graf could (and should) be clearer that the racist crap was published elsewhere, NOT The Daily Caller. CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 14:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
Upon being confronted with his past white supremacist writings, Greer resigned from any affiliation with The Daily Caller.I suppose we could work the main text's mention of Radix Journal into the lede to make the lede more specific, but on the other hand, excess specificity may be overkill. XOR'easter ( talk) 18:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
deputy editor until June 2018; later it was revealedis fine by me — I had preferred to have a little more detail there, but with the fuller explanation down in the body text, I don't think that's obligatory. XOR'easter ( talk) 16:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks all, CharlesGlasserEsq ( talk) 18:34, 31 January 2020 (UTC)CharlesGlasserEsq
I have partially reverted edits by Snooganssnoogans in the body and the lead about Scott Greer. As is clear from this discussion, the edits had some factual errors and there has been opposition. Mr Greer is a living person so WP:NOCONSENSUS and WP:BLP say that re-insertion of the errors and the over-emphasis requires consensus -- although perhaps there will be consensus. Other editors should indicate whether or not the reversion should be re-reverted. Peter Gulutzan ( talk) 15:57, 1 February 2020 (UTC)