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I'm just curious, why isn't this article a candidate for Feature Article? It lists most and many sources, highly informative, and provides a very balanced view of this Church. If anyone should nominate this article (even for Good Article) I shall support it. Ladybug413
I think saying missionaries are "paid" is technically accurate, but not the intent of the church. It was changed to balance the burden of families, and families and individuals do still pay their own way, but through the fund. Maybe some history of how it was done prior to the general fund needs to be explained, because when I went on my mission (to one of the most expensive missions), decades ago, I had to pay my own way. Bytebear 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the missionary fund concurs with Bill's. My point is that when the missionary him/herself has saved the money prior to leaving or if the parents pay for mission by donating to the local fund, the effect is that the Church is not paying for the missionary. That is solely an accounting method to appease whoever. What is not the case is that the church pays missionaries to serve missions. -- Storm Rider (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Moved to Mmiarchi talk page (talk). All are welcome to join in! Some other interesting theological topics emerging as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmirarchi ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 15 May 2007.
The following entry should be re-evaluated...
"In common with other Restorationist churches, the church [LDS] believes in a Great Apostasy."
I’m assuming "other Restorationist churches" is referring to Christian denominations springing from Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. This is biased and misleading. No evidence or source has been provided to suggest any Orthodox Christian denomination believes in a "Great Apostasy". Much less an "Apostasy" as defined by Mormonism. Mmirarchi 17:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC) ( talk
The LDS church has a known reputation for overcounting their membership statistics throughout the world. They claim nearly a million members in Mexico. Yet the Mexican census puts their numbers just slightly over 200,000. Similar problems have occurred in Chile, New Zealand, Brazil and other places. This Wikipedia article on the church can't have any credibility for being neutral if it just continues to tout the self-reported LDS church numbers (especially in Latin America) without any mention of the various government reported numbers on other Wikipedia pages. LDS church numbers are obviously inflated based on historical church policies such as usage of a tool called the Unknown Address File and lack of reporting and external, independent auditing of the statistical activity rates. ( Alex71va 04:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
I wonder how accurate census documents are? Do you have any evidence that the nubmers reported for any other church, as reported by the census in question, is exactly the same as reported that by those chruches? Exactly how many Catholics are reported by the Catholic church are in Mexico and how many are reported by the Census?
I am removing your edits because no other church is held to the same standard on Wikipedia. The only thing that has been stated is what the church reports...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CHURCH. What we have here is your personal agenda attempting to make it something it is not. We call that POV and standing on a soapbox. Please refrain from doing so; it is best for a personal blog. -- Storm Rider (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
You know, this is one reason I've struggled lately to edit much. Most of the arguments and edits like this are rehashed from earlier discussions. You all may want to review the follwoing talk page entries regarding church growth and censuses :
This is further complicated by the change in the 1990s and 200s on membership life expectancy by the US and the LDS church. Until the new census, the US left unknowns persons as living until the age 100, at which time they said they must be deceased. They lowered that number at the new census, as did the church a few years later to typical life expectancy (there is actually a complex formula for this). So the "adjustment" made in the early 2000s is pretty darn accurate (I beleive merrill bateman talked about this - discussed in one of the above links). I'm still listed as an Christian not a Mormon or Latter-day Saint on one census, but as a Latter-day Saint on another. Funnily enough, because I invite the Jehovah Witnesses into my home, I'm also considered a JW on their "study" and membership roles. Yes, there is some errors, some issues with membership, but the LDS Church's is probably the most accurate large religious denomination out there when it comes to record keeping and membership.
Add to all of this my own research (not introduced here) would actually move the number higher, as there are a large number of people who consider themselves cultural church members, or that they are part of the denomniation, but have never been baptized in authorized channels. For example, the "Gay Mormon" survivor contestent a few seasons ago was never mormon, never baptized, but beleived in the church teachings, and fully considered himself a Latter-day Saint by culture and name. Some funadementalists groups consider themselves fully a authorized underground of the LDS church and as such, church members. It all gets pretty hairy when counting numbers. 17-18 million adherents to the Latter Day Saint movement is not an unreasonable figure, and 12-14 of those officially LDS Church members.
Regardless, a person in the US and elsewhere may claim multiple church memberships - and it may be politically and career-wise prudent for them to do so. Until they release their membership via application (the same way they got into the church) or excommuncation, they would have church membership. In places wehre there is a state religion, Mormonism is typically not counted, aside from those who are foreigners or are policially protesting. This would include many latin american countries. This has been hashed and re-hashed. anyway, the links are provided for your reading enjoyment. LDS=most accurate records. Much better than born again believers, or Southern Baptist convention, whose numbers counted for about 50 percent of americans (an impossiblity with catholicism) before they were adjusted for counting double conversions and double baptisms. i've been told that they now rely on survey data for their membership numbers. Regardless, it would not be unusual to see church membership have negative growth before an uptick again. I'm running on... - Visorstuff 14:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
As I said before in previous discussion pages on this topic, the Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th-Day Adventists both have very high retention rates and a very high correlation between members-on-the-rolls and actual-active-members. I guess maybe AoG and other Pentacostal groups do as well, if Visorstuff's research is accurate? If you look into the Mexican and Chilean Censii refered to above, you'll see the the censii show MORE self-identifying JWs than the JWs numbers show official members. Basically, there are both higher-retaining and lower-retaining churches than LDS. Also, churches with higher-correlation and lower-correlation between official membership and actual adherents (Check out http://thearda.com and you'll see, for instance the Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. which has had exactly 2,500,000 members since 1991. Uh huh, riiiight. There was some other group with an even less-plausible count, but I can't find it now.).
Also, I'm sure there *is* still an "unknown address file", or at least was one three years ago. Someone skeptical of my surety though may want to call up Church Headquarters confirm for themselves. Should only take a few minutes.
Hey, Visorstuff, you had said in a previous discussion you were looking forward to reading David Stewart's book when it came out. Well, it's out! Both for sale as a bound book and for free on the site. Go to http://cumorah.com .
As far as saying something actually relevant to the article: Alex71va, you're absolutely right that the census figures are far below the official count. I agree totally. If you want to cite an official source as you've been correctly told you need to, see The Law of the Harvest, by David Stewart, linked in above paragraph. However, I advise you not to. You are also being ridiculous and silly trying to make whatever point it is you're trying to make. As stormrider said below, we all agree with you. But should it be put in the article? No. It's not significant enough, I don't think. And the whole reason you want to put it in is certainly not NPOV. Novel-Technology 06:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
According to this summary, the LDS Church never officially supported Prohibition. I have heard it said that president of the church Heber J. Grant asked Latter-day Saints to vote against the repeal of Prohibition in 1933. See here.
Our article listed "support of Prohibition" as one of the political issues the church has become involved in, along with opposing MX Missile bases, ERA, same-sex marriage, etc. However, unlike these issues, I can find no official statement from the first presidency, quorum of the twelve, or "the church" on the issue. All I can find are reports about Grant's pleadings with the members.
I've removed support of Prohibition from this list and thought I should open this one up for commenting or discussion of references. - SESmith 03:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Item has been added back to article but still no reference for it. Anyone know where to look for one? - SESmith 10:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Who removed the section on Mormonism and race?
I spent several hours last night writing a section on LDS doctrines related to race, citing the book of mormon and official church publications, it was up as of 10 minutes ago but now it's gone! who removed it? why? for what reason and with what justification? Everything there was cited clearly to source documents! this is NOT cool. 70.143.108.223 11:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
the more i think about this the angrier it makes me, i quit the mormon church ten years ago (after 16 yeas of membership) out of outrage when i ran across the old doctrines on race that had been hidden and left undiscussed, and now even on wikipedia mormon apologists are trying to censor attempts to tell the truth about what this church teaches. you cannot allege that the quotes were inaccurate or out of context, they were direct from the book of mormon and official church publications, i even included a few quotes showing anti-racist tendancies in mormon scripture for the sake of balance. I guess this explains why all the articles on the lds church have such a ridiculous pro-mormon bias and read like advertisements for the church! all the quotes that are allowed in are relentlessly pro-mormon and talk about how great the church is, even the article on mormonism and people of african descent only quotes black MORMONS who are ok with the doctrine - people who've left the church in protest or on principle are silenced as are non-mormons who rightly point out the church's bigotry.
I don't claim to have a neutral point of view on this issue but the text i wrote was very much neutral - which is more then can be said for the rest of the article! I am so so angry right now.... 70.143.108.223 11:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
ok, last note here. I was able to find the text, which had been removed by Sesmith, a mormon (big suprise), whose comment was
"This added section sounds more like a specialty involving non-basic doctrine and is not appropriate for an article about the organization that this article is about"
in other words, he removed it because he didn't think it was important since it's "non basic" doctrine. how is it "non basic" to argue that the majority of the worlds population - people of color - are "Cursed" by God and that that curse makes them "lazy" and "idle", as the book of mormon says it does? how is it non-basic that the church prohibited inter-racial marriages for over a century and maintained racial qualifications on who could participate in the church? how is it "non basic" to say that black people can only enter the highest realm of the celestial kingdom as "servants"???
answer: there's nothing non-basic about it, racism and racial doctrines have been a *central* element of the mormon religion since Brigham young took over from joseph smith (who had actually ordained black people). and the only thing inappropriate is that mormon apologists refuse to adhere to NPOV and insist on removing everything even remotely critical of their church, even when it's their own general authorities and prophets words being quoted.
I've put the text back, I hope it stays back this time and that wikipedia hasn't deteriorated to the point where this type of censorship is tolerated. 70.143.108.223 12:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
half the article was on mormons and native americans, not mormons and blacks, and is NOT covered elsewhere. also, the scriptural citations which you removed and which have since been removed AGAIN related specifically to native americans and are CURRENT doctrine, NOT history. It is thus very much relevant to an article on the doctrine of the Mormon church today - at least as relevant as sexuality and the church's position on homosexuality, which are both mentioned (albiet from a biased pro-mormon perspective) in the article. Efforts to remove sources of "controversy" are exactly the sort of censorship I'm objecting too.
If what you object to is the inclusion of historical data I'll remove that and put up a link to the article on mormons and black people, but the information on CURRENT mormon racial doctrine in regards to native americans needs to go back up.
and if you're not a mormon I apologize for jumping to conclusions. 70.143.108.223 01:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- one more thought, you argue that "You cannot find extended discussions of race in anything that is currently published by the LDS Church." I submit that this is patently false. The Book of Mormon is the central scripture of the mormon religion and the central narrative of that book, the conflict between the Nephites and Lamanites, is a centuries-long race war in which "blackness" is explicitly associated with apostasy and wickedness. how can you seriously argue that the mormon church does not publish on race? every copy of the book of mormon is a white supremacist manifesto. 70.143.108.223 02:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
For my part, I would only point out—first, that I said the LDS Church publishes nothing that has "extended discussions of race". The Book of Mormon mentions (what some interpret to mean) race, but it by no means goes into much detail about it. It is vague and brief enough that there are scholars who question whether it in actuality refers to racial characteristics at all. (But that's another story and would be great for a new article if you find it is unaddressed anywhere else—but I think you will find it if you look.) Anyway, the LDS Church has never adopted everything in the Book of Mormon literally, as some are wont to do with scripture; if it did, imagery and figurative speech such as requiring a "broken heart" or making your garments white by washing them in the "blood of lamb" could be very perplexing and troublesome.
Second, I thank you for your apology but I was not looking for one and it does not offend me to be called a Mormon. But, as I stated above, what does bother me is pointing out someone's presumed religious affiliation "as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views". That's not acceptable at WP or anywhere else. - SESmith 04:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
well i'm obviously outvoted on this one, which is frustrating, but seems to be one of the hazards of working on a collaborative project like wikipedia. storm rider - if you count up the number of verses on jesus christ (who only actually appears once) in the book of mormon and compare them to the number of verses on race, race is far more central to the narrative then jesus is. and that's leaving aside the good vs evil race war subtext. and anyone who questions that the book of mormon is talking about race or doesn't think the modern church endorses a racist position hasn't read the official chapters summaries at the beginnings of the various verses that talk about race, the modern church is very clear on this.... I spent 16 years in the church and have studied their doctrines inside and out, i'm not speaking from a lack of familiarity with the book of mormon or lds institutions here. but i can see i'm not going to change your mind so i'll take my "white horse" as ya'll put it and spend my time on something more productive.
I *would* appreciate it if there was at least a stub somewhere on the page referring to the LDS Church's positions on native americans, something i have not seen addressed anywhere on wikipedia. but even that may be too much to expect. 70.143.103.130 03:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Anon 70, opinions are free to everyone, but attempting to portray opinion as fact is not acceptable. The words white, dark, skin are mentioned exactly 37 times in the Book of Mormon. The terms Jesus Christ, Lord, or Messiah are over 400. I think what you meant to say above is that Jesus Christ appeared in the Book of Mormon once (which happens to be the exact number of times he appears in the New Testament); however, to attempt to portray that as somehow evaluative of His importance is balderdash and deceiptful. The entire Book of Mormon is about believing in Christ, preaching Christ, and following Christ. Anyone with only the briefest of knowledge of the Book knows this. You are letting your passion about a single subject cloud your reason and your logic. -- Storm Rider (talk) 04:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The "
Template:Mormon_denomination_tree" (pictured above) has been removed by an editor, who has commented that it is an "ugly and misleading graphic". It previously was a the very bottom of the article.
Should this article have the Mormon denomination tree?—What does everyone think? - SESmith 01:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the tree is a valuable addition and a good introduction for the general reader. Until a new version that is agreed to be clearer and more accurate can be produced, I'd recommend replacing this image. TimVickers 18:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
While I was reading the article, there were several times (whenever the words "latter day saint movement" appeared) that I wished for a chart just like this one. Put it back. Phrenophobia 05:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am not trying to be a pain or anything but I have not noticed much critisism in this article. Without one the article is not as informative as it could be and it also is not as balanced as it could be. So I do not cause a dispute or anything i am wondering if you would have a problem with me starting a small critisism section for this article? Thanks. Have a nice week and God bless:)-- James, La gloria è a dio 07:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
James, I understand your position and I encourage you read the Roman Catholic Church article for an example of how to handle criticism. I believe that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I support maintaining policy and following rules and I am committed that his article follow the excellent example of the other. It is always best to emulate good examples, no? -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If the LDS church claims approx. 13 million members then how do you get approx. 4.7 million Latin American members (i.e. 13 * .36). This allegation of 36% needs to be substantiated. In general in order to be NPOV, the entire "Current Membership" section needs to neutrally treat all reference data (including census data) for membership numbers. The birthrates and maximum death rates clearly are not in-sync with census rates to account for the allegedly inflated numbers in this article. ( Alex71va 04:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
As has been stated before many times in this talk page (see archives), the best thing we can do to maintain NPOV with respect to membership figures is write what the LDS Church self-reports and indicate that the numbers are self-reported; any other studies on the membership may be cited with proper citations to reliable and verifiable sources. The article does this, and you are free to add citations. According to my calculations, the numbers provided by Bytebear below add up and work out to between 37% and 38%. So what's the problem here? - SESmith 05:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I did a quick cut and paste from the LDS.COM website statistics:
country | church membership |
---|---|
Argentina | 355,987 |
Bolivia | 153,674 |
Brazil | 970,903 |
Chile | 543,628 |
Colombia | 154,549 |
Costa Rica | 34,777 |
Cuba | |
Dominican Rep. | 102,144 |
Ecuador | 170,736 |
El Salvador | 95,931 |
Guatemala | 205,221 |
Haiti | 13,604 |
Honduras | 120,259 |
Mexico | 1,082,427 |
Nicaragua | 55,369 |
Panama | 41,640 |
Paraguay | 61,308 |
Peru | 416,060 |
Uruguay | 96,943 |
Venezuela | 134,597 |
French Guiana | |
Guadeloupe | |
Martinique | |
Aruba | |
Bonaire | |
Curaçao | |
U.S. Virgin Islands | 491 |
Puerto Rico | 19,609 |
Total from Latin America: 4,829,857
Total Church Membership: 12,868,606
Percentage of membership in Latin America: 37.5
The list of countries was taken from the Wikipedia article Latin America. Bytebear 05:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
We need an explanation from Alex of how writing what the LDS reports = POV, especially when it is clear from the context of the article that the number comes from self-reports. Alex's claim of POV is like claiming that the statement, "Christians believe Jesus is God" is POV because non-Christians don't agree with the statement! - SESmith 05:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mexico | Utah | Difference (%) | |
---|---|---|---|
Membership | 1,082,427 | 1,789,707 | 40% |
Temples | 11 | 12 | About even although Utah has larger temples |
Congregations | 1936 | 4585 | 58% |
Post-manifesto polygamy!! Wilford Woodruff & Lydia Mountford, Woodruff's son Abraham Owen Woodruff of the Quorum of the Twelve, Matthias F. Cowley, John W. Taylor, Marriner W. Merrill and many others took plural wives after 1890. BTW I grew up in a LDS ward where one of the men in our Ward named Joe Eyring came from a family where his father had 2 wives who he married in 1893 and 1903. They were plural married in Mexico with the approval of the Brethren in Salt Lake. In fact Joe's eldest sister Camilla was married to Spencer Kimball, who was president of the church at the time I was growing up. Do your research on post-manifesto polygamy. It's a well-acknowledged truth. And this 1890 number has no business being in a NPOV header paragraph on the church. ( Alex71va 06:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
This area was a difficult time for many polygamous families. As a genealogist I am very familiar with my wife's family history. When the manifesto came out it had a devastating impact on most of them and caused the break up many. In her family history all of these plural marriages were put aside as far as any form of cohabitating; it simply stopped. Choices were made as to which wife would be "the" wife, sons were given charge of the now single mothers, and often these women moved away from where their husband was living. I strongly suspect that her history is relective of the majority of Latter-day saint families. My point is that after 1890 things were not just running as before. Did plural marriages take place? Yes; however, relative to prior periods it was very rare. The 1890 Manifesto was a watershed moment in our history. -- Storm Rider (talk) 14:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"denomination" can be a problematic word because "denominationalism" assumes a certain parity and near-interchangeability between denominations that some branches of Christianity reject.
Methodists, Presbyterians and Lutherans seem to accept the label "Christian denomination". Catholic and Orthodox churches reject this label because they insist that they are the "true Church" and certainly not "just another Christian denomination". Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the label for the same reason.
I would have thought that the LDS church would also reject the label for the same reason. Perhaps I'm wrong?
-- Richard 17:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The word "legally" was inserted into the sentence "Joseph Smith legally formed the church".
I assume that this is not intended in contradistinction to "illegally forming the church" so the natural presumption is that it is meant to distinguish between activities prior to the formation of the church as a legal entity. This seems to be an unnecessary distinction unless there was a formal document like "articles of incorporation" that Smith filed and, even then, I don't see why this is that important. It would seem to me that legalities like incorporating a church are minor details in the history of the church. Given that there are no significant hurdles to forming a church as a legal entity, it is pretty much just a formality and therefore not really worth nothing noting.
Thus, IMO, the word "legally" suggests to the reader a nuance that isn't actually there. It is distracting for the reader to wonder "gee, I wonder why that word is there. what point is the author trying to make?"
-- Richard 17:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have some questions/comments on some content in this article as it stands now.
"He initially governed his followers as a theocratic leader, and openly encouraged the practice of plural marriage, which Joseph Smith had tried to keep secret."
(1) Openness about plural marriage began in 1852. (2) Brigham Young and other apostles tried to keep it secret too until 1852.
"When word of the practice got back to Washington, D.C., the United States sent federal troops there in 1857, deposed Young, and replaced him with a non-Mormon territorial governor, though Young still wielded significant political power as President of the Church."
(3) References on the decisions of Congress and the White House back in 1857, plus the political attitudes of the new Republican party on “barbarism” should be considered. This sentence makes it look like the US government sent troops to Utah just because they started openly practicing and preaching about polygamy.
"Young was followed by other powerful leaders, who were defiant in the face of U.S. efforts to outlaw polygamous marriages in the territory."
(4) This sentence makes it seem that the U.S. was trying to make polygamy illegal AFTER Brigham Young’s successors were in charge. The truth is that polygamy was already illegal and outlawed in Utah during 1862, approx. 15 years before Brigham Young died. All the talk of “U.S. efforts” after Young died was about efforts to enforce the laws on the books which the outlaws were defiantly disobeying.
“The church's most significant scripture, the Book of Mormon, was published by founder Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830, and is a story about various groups of pre-Columbian Christians, which Smith said he translated from golden plates buried near his home.”
(5) Generally accurate, but its not easy to read and could use improvement IMHO.
(6) Any particular reason why the CHURCH NEWS is not mentioned in the list of "Official periodicals: current and historical"?
( Alex71va 19:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Alex71va)
I have added a new criticism section. It is not great but it is a start. Feel free to edit it. God bless:)-- Sir James Paul 01:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems that arises is that this is an article about the LDS Church, not an article about "Mormonism" or the Book of Mormon or an LDS leader such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Many of the common criticisms directed at the LDS Church that some would want to include here are actually criticisms with Mormonism or the Book of Mormon or one of its leaders rather than the church itself. The church just gets caught up in it because it teaches Mormonism and believes in the Book of Mormon as scripture. For example, the fact that the church did not allow blacks to hold the priesthood until 1978 can be a legitimate criticism against the LDS Church. But the charge that the Book of Mormon contains "racist" passages is a criticism of the Book of Mormon and is not a criticism legitimately addressed in an article on the LDS Church. We wouldn't have a discussion of "racist" passages in the Bible in an article on the Catholic Church.
If we keep the criticism section, we will be dealing with keeping this distinction unendingly since many don't distinguish between criticizing the church and criticizing these other things. – SESmith 23:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Mine is not necessarily critism, but a question. When a Morman female dies, does she go to the spirit world like a man and will she get an imortal body after judgement on her works alone? A Morman once told me that a woman can only get an imortal body like her husband if he approves it once he has his. In other words, no matter how good a life a woman can lead on earth, she can't make it to Heaven if her husband doesn't want her there. If that is a true belief or something close, shouldn't that be mentioned in the airticle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.32.58 ( talk) 19:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you guys. The church has always been a controversial organization, and continues to be today. The article is not complete without a more explicit mention of the criticism of the church. A simple reference at the article is not nearly enough to be intellectually honest IMO. Perhaps we can create a criticism section, and make a rule that it can't be more than one or two paragraphs, and have an explicit reference to the Criticism article? I will add this section and you guys tell me what you think. Descartes1979 18:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You and I could come up with some interesting conversation why the largest Christian church has no criticism section unlike some of the smaller groups. It is one of the short comings of Wikipedia and the tyranny of the majority. However, I personally believe the ideal is that demonstrated by the Catholic church article and the others should be brought into a reflection of it. What others think about individual churches is secondary to the topic. Interestingly, the major doctrinal criticisms of the church are already mentioned in the article: polygamy, Godhead, and the concept of theosis or exaltation. The way the subject matter has been addressed is to include it in the respective individual sections and linking the subarticles rather than have a specific section. I think it is a matter of choice; rather than go back and take out the other criticisms to gather them in one section, past editors choice to address the topics as they were introduced. I tend to agree with the past editors. -- Storm Rider (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I missed it, why were these taken out of the Beliefs section? Thanks Novel-Technology 02:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I read somewhere on another talk page that the correct noun usage of "the Church" is as a proper noun, being that we are talking about a single entity. Before I go through the article and capitalize "church" everywhere, I wanted some input from others. Bytebear 05:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This issue was recently discussed at length HERE. The consensus was to retain "the church". - SESmith 09:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I really can't see why this page has been removed from the Good Articles category. I have read other articles on subjects with less passion from the wikipedia community which need much more improvement and are left as good articles. I don't support bad articles getting the name of good articles, but what I am questioning is the reason and motive this article was removed from the Good Articles. Was it simply because the article is about a church that some people very much disagree with? Anyway food for thought! I have read through the article a few times and feel the article deserves Good Article status. Every article on wikipedia can always be bettered, even those with Good Article status. Redrok84 18:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The American Heritage Dictionary defines "restore" as "1. To bring back into existence or use; reestablish: restore law and order. 2. To bring back to an original condition: restore a building..." [2] Presumably, the article is not claiming that no one was following the teachings of Jesus before Joseph Smith came along. Consequently, the phrase "restored through" asserts that Smith's version removes distortions introduced by other Christian denominations. This is, to say the least, not a matter of universal agreement. If that's the position of the LDS Church, "allegedly restored" would be acceptable. But "as preached by" seems like a more polite way of removing the advocacy. [Please note: Though a resident of Salt Lake City, I am ethnic Jewish and find all Christian sects equally plausible or implausible.] Ribonucleic 21:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
did you guys check out the south park episode of mormons? Hilarious. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.74.80.112 ( talk • contribs) 06:00, 28 July 2007.
Some editors are trying hard to, but there's really no point in playing out the "legally justified or not" arguments surrounding the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press on this page. I suggest Nauvoo Expositor might be a better place for that, or even perhaps Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. This article is long enough as it is ... a brief mention should more than suffice. – SESmith 05:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure I'm opening up a can of worms, but it seems pretty absurd that there is almost nothing in this article about LDS's history on race relations. I understand that this is covered more fully in other articles, but the fact that we have an article called Blacks and the Latter Day Saint movement means that the contents of that article ought to be at least briefly deal with the contents of that material. As it is, the history is rather whitewashed, with it only stating that blacks could not be priesthood holders, rather than the much broader history of racial prejudice. I think some NPOV discussion of this issue is in order on this page. john k 19:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Racist is a very strong term; however, if the shoe fits, it should be worn. You have stated that you do not feel you possess the expertise necessary to write the edit; however, this would seem to conflict with your confidence in making the allegation. That is not the best position for an editor who strives to make NPOV edits. Here is my understanding of the history:
Segregation of people is racist; this has never been done by LDS or any group I know of in the Latter Day Saint movement. Restriction of priesthood ordination is not an issue of sexism, racism or any other ism; it is an issue of faith. That is what this article focuses on; the fact that the church at one point had more restrictions than they do today. One may call it racist, but that would only be a POV. -- Storm Rider (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so I think we're all agreed that main coverage of the issue should be elsewhere, that NPOV can and will be maintained, and that there is no cabal. Hooray! That said, the introduction of a single paragraph could certainly beneficial; does anyone still disagree? If so, why? If not, what information might it contain? -- Masamage ♫ 20:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
It really should have at least a paragraph on the racism of the church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LEDominator ( talk • contribs) 06:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't this article at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This is the pattern we follow for similar constructions, like Church of England, Church of Scotland, and so forth. Wikipedia naming conventions say not to use direct articles except in things like the titles to works of art. john k 21:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Your point is one that has been brought up before; however, in this instance it has been agreed multiple times that we are following the correct standard. The Manual of Style indicated above also clarifies this point. -- Storm Rider (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
How about: put a disclaimer right at the top to the effect that there are several churches with very similar names; this covers the largest one, for others see the disambiguation page. Phrenophobia 06:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I was just looking at the LDS movement template located at the bottom of the page. Might I suggest that this great Latter Day Saint historical template be placed at the historical section of the article. It almost appears hidden at the bottom of the page right now. I think that since the template concerns early church history for this, and other, organizations it should be located in or around the historical section of the article. What does everybody think??? Jcg5029 03:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
On the map that displays which political entities include LDS temples, the commonwealth of Virginia is colored with dark blue, implying that a temple exists in the state. As far as I know, there is no temple in Virginia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.28.34 ( talk) 21:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this entry may have been the victim of some vandalism. Every abbreviation "LDS" is "LSD", even the references at the end. I don't have the time to go through and change them all. Just thought someone should know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.147.231 ( talk) 06:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
It's very clear this is writen by the LDS to make themselves look Christian. Like most stuff on Wikipedia about LDS is by LDS and for LDS there is no way it's natural or accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by O22ZY ( talk • contribs) 19:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps putting in a tidbit about education that is linked to a source with some dubious claims (formerly citation 61). The articles which the website provided links to to back up its claims have nothing to do with the claims made on the site, and even worse one of them links to the mormon.org website which has since either removed or changed its location -- LEDominator November 2007 21:50 PST
Does this video describe Mormonism correctly? If so, then it sure does it a lot better than this confusing and lengthy article and also provides some key points of Mormonism that this article does not. For example, it says that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children or whatever they're called who rule other planets as gods. It also says that Mormons believe blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus (those who did became the white race) or Lucifer (those who did became demons) and thus were cursed with black skin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.176.176 ( talk) 00:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Duke53, I'm actually suprised that you even allow the above to associate you with alluding to the Godmakers as even remotely acurately portraying Mormonism. We don't need to have a rebuttal on this stupid movie in wikipedia. That is not the point of Wikipedia. for historical purposes, multiple non-LDS groups criticize the movie, the message and the use of half-truths - for exmaple, the Apolgetics index quotes multiple sources about how awful the movie is ( http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s29.html) and the National Conference of Christians and Jews, describes it as "making extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith." Even the Tanners criticize the work ( http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/utlm?q=godmakers&sa=Search for multiple articles about the movie from the tanners) and Jerald said that it hurt his own efforts to convert Mormons to mainstream christianity. A simple google search will bring up multiple rebuttals to the movie. It is about as lame as it goes. Common sense should show most that even the first few seconds of the video is incorrect, from the misstatement that God the Father lives on a planet called Kolob to his sitting around all day having “endless celestial sex.” That is not even close to some of the folk doctrine in Mormonism, let alone the real doctrine.
As for the claims referred to above: - "Jesus and Lucifer are brothers" - both were created by God, and in that sense they are. Mormon scriptures are quite clear that Jesus is also our father, and our God. Jesus and Lucifer are not equals, nor have they ever been. - "God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children" - We are all children of god, all trillion or so of us who live on this earth, but there is no evidence that God has multiple wives. - "blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus" - there were no neutrals in the war in heaven. you either decided to accept the atonement and come to earth or you did not. See Blacks and Mormonism and Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. - That we can "rule other planets as gods" - this is false doctrine. church members believe they can become gods - not Gods. See discussion taking place right now at Talk:Mormonism_and_Christianity on this very topic. There I included the following from Jeff Lindsay's blog. Which prominent Church LDS leaders issued the following statements?
Muliple choice answers: A. Joseph Smith; B. Brigham Young; C. Lorenzo Snow; D. Gordon B. Hinckley; G. Saint Irenaeus; H. Saint Clement of Alexandria; I. Saint Athanasius; J. Saint Augustine
You guessed it - the quotes came from the last four, not the first four. See here. Crazy Mormons, I mean early Christian fathers, I mean Mormons, err, uh, wait...
One start at a point by point can be found at SHEILDS ( http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/GMErrors.htm), although i find even starting to address this movie is frustrating because of how many inaccuracies and direct falsehoods there are. It is like saying that all christians (including Mormons) are canibals and beleive that they will one day have wings that will allow them to fly, and that apples are evil, that Christ flew around like a bird, etc. In any case, it is good to see you are still around. - Visorstuff ( talk) 05:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
"Where, in Wikipedia, are these 'many rebuttals'? I read the article and can only find some general objections ... nothing rebutting most of the claims in the film, and those objections are not cited." Wow! I don't think that you are seriously suggesting that I should have loaded The God Makers article with a bunch of strong pro-LDS rebuttals when I wrote it. I suppose I could have, if I were attempting to write an apologetic tract rather than a Wikipedia article. The purpose of the article was to describe the film and events surrounding its release, not to discredit it, despite the fact that I personally think Decker's magnum opus with its cheesy cartoon is the most laughable thing I've ever seen. My favorite part is when Jesus "beams down" to the American Continent. Enough fun, I've got to get back to "Starbase Kolob" now. The article is there...the rebuttals are out there...so, have at it folks. Bochica ( talk) 20:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think this conversation has gotten a little off track, but to answer the original question "...it says that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children or whatever they're called who rule other planets as gods. It also says that Mormons believe blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus (those who did became the white race) or Lucifer (those who did became demons) and thus were cursed with black skin.... Well, accoding to the LDS religon, they do belive that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, I can't find anything that actually staes that God 'has many wives', and I can't find anything anywhere about Blacks remaing 'neutral'. I don't think that the whole thing about how Lucifer and Jesus are brothers is notable enough for the article, but if someone else does I wouldn't really oppose.... ~ Bella Swan 23:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I hate to bring up a rehashed topic once again, but I think a criticism section is warranted. I know, I know - I brought this up a while ago, and was willing to submit to the vehement opposition that I received. However, a few of us have been doing a bunch of work on the Criticism of Mormonism article - that hand in hand with a review of the POV fork article under Wikipedia guidelines, brings me to the conclusion that the articles really ought to be merged. Perhaps not every nit picky criticism in the other article needs mention in a larger article like this one, but I wonder if we can integrate some of the information into each topic in this main article, then give a brief summary in a criticism section (per Wikipedia guidelines), and then refer out to the main criticism article. In the past you guys have cited examples such as the Koran, and the Catholic church articles as articles that don't have a criticism section, but the more I think about it, the more I think those articles are not in line with Wikipedia guidelines either. Thoughts? Descartes1979 19:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no discussion about whether the Book of Mormon is scientifically correct. Native Americans are NOT the Lost Tribes of Israel. DNA proves it. It is well known. If you want your religion to be accepted, you need to come to terms with this, just as you altered the view of African-Americans surrounding the passage of the Civil Rights Act in the 60s. Until then, you will be seen as a cult. (JDB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.101.1.118 ( talk) 22:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
He was supposedly a resurrected prophet as stated here"after his death Moroni was resurrected and became an angel". It would be like calling Jesus an angel after His resurrection.
Also the "angel" link in the history section of the article "Joseph Smith translated from a book of golden plates that were buried near his home in a place shown to him by an angel." sends the reader to an article about Moroni(prophet) which has a talk page for a different article titled Angel Moroni. Does Moroni(prophet) not need its own talk page? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 02:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of theology, it is a verifiable fact that Mormons frequently, perhaps even customarily, refer to him as "the Angel Moroni." Dpbsmith (talk) 02:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
1. A typically benevolent celestial being that acts as an intermediary between heaven and earth, especially in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism. 2. A representation of such a being, especially in Christianity, conventionally in the image of a human figure with a halo and wings. 3. angels Christianity The last of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology. From the highest to the lowest in rank, the orders are: seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. 4. A guardian spirit or guiding influence. 5a. A kind and lovable person. b. One who manifests goodness, purity, and selflessness. 6. Informal A financial backer of an enterprise, especially a dramatic production or a political campaign.
I will agree with Dpbsmith 's suggestion that "Mormon terminology should be used with the briefest of possible qualifications in the text. E.g. "the Angel Moroni (as Mormons call him)."" Can we settle on that? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 11:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
These are important distinctions which should be right up front in the article. 1: Mormons believe Jesus went to South America to teach his other children after his resurrection. 2: There is no "holy trinity" 3: Temple marriage is forever as in forever; even if divorced. 4: Good Mormons can achieve the status of God for their own world after death. Hence, Mormons believe there are many Gods. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 02:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Alanraywiki for directing me to the Plan of Salvation
This means that Mormons believe there are many Gods,not just 1 as most Christians believe. This distinction should be very prominent in this article, I think.
Degrees within the celestial
kingdom
"Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three "heavens or degrees".[12] Only those individuals who are sealed in celestial marriage to a spouse in a temple while alive (or after death by proxy) will be permitted to enter into the highest degree of celestial kingdom.[13] These individuals will eventually become "exalted"[14] and will be permitted to live "the kind of life God lives".[15]"
What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.
“Chapter 47: Exaltation,” Gospel Principles, 301
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."
The extracts above show the extent and firmness of the religion's acceptance of the multiple and equal gods belief. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 12:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The section on exaltation implies that they can have the same power and authority over a planet that God does over earth and I have read in books that this is the case. Is that true? Is there a clear official LDS source for that because it is quite interesting I think and also should be prominent within the article. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 12:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I just located these quotes on a few websites but do not know if the 2 men are reliable sources on Mormonism or whether the quotes are accepted by LDS as being accurate. Lorenzo Snow and Orson Pratt:
and
Are these accepted by LDS as accurate quotes and were these 2 men authorities on Mormon beliefs? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 21:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've written elsewhere on this wiki:
"Some feel that Mormons are polytheistic because Latter-day Saints believe they can become 'gods' (see undefined definition above) and 'like' God (see theosis or deification). This does not neccessarily mean that they can become omnipotent creators of technicolor worlds with purple dinosaurs. It does mean that they will be co-inheritors of exaltation - something our mortal minds do not comprehend. President Hinckley was criticised when he told Mike Wallace that he understands the philosophy behind us becoming creator-gods, but that he doesn't think that the church teaches it. To me, that was funny, because those who realize that the doctrine is much more complex than how most culturally believe it, accepted his explanation, while others thought that is strange that President Hinckley would deny that. It was simply a clarification of doctrine."
I also wrote about this in detail here.
Once again, I don't deny that it may have been taught in the past by top church leaders, but it is not scriptural doctrine (but a folk doctrine based on good philosophy), and therefore not doctrine of the LDS Church. Church leaders are much better today about staying doctrinally sound. - Visorstuff ( talk) 21:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I am going to reverse the question posed by Mr.grantevans2:
Are these accepted by [Christians] as accurate quotes and were these [4] men authorities on [Christian] beliefs?
Can you accept early Christian fathers and reject the same concepts by Mormon leaders? Bytebear ( talk) 22:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Source: [25]
What's the LDS view on whether God has a wife? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
As you say Mr.grantevants2, this article is "a basic resourse for general readers where they can quickly pick up the information they are most likely to be interested in when they come to the topic in the encyclopedia." Those who want to spend more in-depth time reading about ancilliary things like kolob or whether or not God has a wife, or if Jesus and Satan were spiritually begotton by the Father, can do so quickly. Wikipedia should not be a political nor proselyting tool. We do not change the face of wiki just because of an political election. If someone sees the huckabee "zinger" they could do a google search and find a link to wikipedia just as easily as coming here - which is in fact, what the majority of people do. - Visorstuff ( talk) 14:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
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I'm just curious, why isn't this article a candidate for Feature Article? It lists most and many sources, highly informative, and provides a very balanced view of this Church. If anyone should nominate this article (even for Good Article) I shall support it. Ladybug413
I think saying missionaries are "paid" is technically accurate, but not the intent of the church. It was changed to balance the burden of families, and families and individuals do still pay their own way, but through the fund. Maybe some history of how it was done prior to the general fund needs to be explained, because when I went on my mission (to one of the most expensive missions), decades ago, I had to pay my own way. Bytebear 18:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the missionary fund concurs with Bill's. My point is that when the missionary him/herself has saved the money prior to leaving or if the parents pay for mission by donating to the local fund, the effect is that the Church is not paying for the missionary. That is solely an accounting method to appease whoever. What is not the case is that the church pays missionaries to serve missions. -- Storm Rider (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Moved to Mmiarchi talk page (talk). All are welcome to join in! Some other interesting theological topics emerging as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mmirarchi ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 15 May 2007.
The following entry should be re-evaluated...
"In common with other Restorationist churches, the church [LDS] believes in a Great Apostasy."
I’m assuming "other Restorationist churches" is referring to Christian denominations springing from Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation. This is biased and misleading. No evidence or source has been provided to suggest any Orthodox Christian denomination believes in a "Great Apostasy". Much less an "Apostasy" as defined by Mormonism. Mmirarchi 17:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC) ( talk
The LDS church has a known reputation for overcounting their membership statistics throughout the world. They claim nearly a million members in Mexico. Yet the Mexican census puts their numbers just slightly over 200,000. Similar problems have occurred in Chile, New Zealand, Brazil and other places. This Wikipedia article on the church can't have any credibility for being neutral if it just continues to tout the self-reported LDS church numbers (especially in Latin America) without any mention of the various government reported numbers on other Wikipedia pages. LDS church numbers are obviously inflated based on historical church policies such as usage of a tool called the Unknown Address File and lack of reporting and external, independent auditing of the statistical activity rates. ( Alex71va 04:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
I wonder how accurate census documents are? Do you have any evidence that the nubmers reported for any other church, as reported by the census in question, is exactly the same as reported that by those chruches? Exactly how many Catholics are reported by the Catholic church are in Mexico and how many are reported by the Census?
I am removing your edits because no other church is held to the same standard on Wikipedia. The only thing that has been stated is what the church reports...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CHURCH. What we have here is your personal agenda attempting to make it something it is not. We call that POV and standing on a soapbox. Please refrain from doing so; it is best for a personal blog. -- Storm Rider (talk) 05:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
You know, this is one reason I've struggled lately to edit much. Most of the arguments and edits like this are rehashed from earlier discussions. You all may want to review the follwoing talk page entries regarding church growth and censuses :
This is further complicated by the change in the 1990s and 200s on membership life expectancy by the US and the LDS church. Until the new census, the US left unknowns persons as living until the age 100, at which time they said they must be deceased. They lowered that number at the new census, as did the church a few years later to typical life expectancy (there is actually a complex formula for this). So the "adjustment" made in the early 2000s is pretty darn accurate (I beleive merrill bateman talked about this - discussed in one of the above links). I'm still listed as an Christian not a Mormon or Latter-day Saint on one census, but as a Latter-day Saint on another. Funnily enough, because I invite the Jehovah Witnesses into my home, I'm also considered a JW on their "study" and membership roles. Yes, there is some errors, some issues with membership, but the LDS Church's is probably the most accurate large religious denomination out there when it comes to record keeping and membership.
Add to all of this my own research (not introduced here) would actually move the number higher, as there are a large number of people who consider themselves cultural church members, or that they are part of the denomniation, but have never been baptized in authorized channels. For example, the "Gay Mormon" survivor contestent a few seasons ago was never mormon, never baptized, but beleived in the church teachings, and fully considered himself a Latter-day Saint by culture and name. Some funadementalists groups consider themselves fully a authorized underground of the LDS church and as such, church members. It all gets pretty hairy when counting numbers. 17-18 million adherents to the Latter Day Saint movement is not an unreasonable figure, and 12-14 of those officially LDS Church members.
Regardless, a person in the US and elsewhere may claim multiple church memberships - and it may be politically and career-wise prudent for them to do so. Until they release their membership via application (the same way they got into the church) or excommuncation, they would have church membership. In places wehre there is a state religion, Mormonism is typically not counted, aside from those who are foreigners or are policially protesting. This would include many latin american countries. This has been hashed and re-hashed. anyway, the links are provided for your reading enjoyment. LDS=most accurate records. Much better than born again believers, or Southern Baptist convention, whose numbers counted for about 50 percent of americans (an impossiblity with catholicism) before they were adjusted for counting double conversions and double baptisms. i've been told that they now rely on survey data for their membership numbers. Regardless, it would not be unusual to see church membership have negative growth before an uptick again. I'm running on... - Visorstuff 14:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
As I said before in previous discussion pages on this topic, the Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th-Day Adventists both have very high retention rates and a very high correlation between members-on-the-rolls and actual-active-members. I guess maybe AoG and other Pentacostal groups do as well, if Visorstuff's research is accurate? If you look into the Mexican and Chilean Censii refered to above, you'll see the the censii show MORE self-identifying JWs than the JWs numbers show official members. Basically, there are both higher-retaining and lower-retaining churches than LDS. Also, churches with higher-correlation and lower-correlation between official membership and actual adherents (Check out http://thearda.com and you'll see, for instance the Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. which has had exactly 2,500,000 members since 1991. Uh huh, riiiight. There was some other group with an even less-plausible count, but I can't find it now.).
Also, I'm sure there *is* still an "unknown address file", or at least was one three years ago. Someone skeptical of my surety though may want to call up Church Headquarters confirm for themselves. Should only take a few minutes.
Hey, Visorstuff, you had said in a previous discussion you were looking forward to reading David Stewart's book when it came out. Well, it's out! Both for sale as a bound book and for free on the site. Go to http://cumorah.com .
As far as saying something actually relevant to the article: Alex71va, you're absolutely right that the census figures are far below the official count. I agree totally. If you want to cite an official source as you've been correctly told you need to, see The Law of the Harvest, by David Stewart, linked in above paragraph. However, I advise you not to. You are also being ridiculous and silly trying to make whatever point it is you're trying to make. As stormrider said below, we all agree with you. But should it be put in the article? No. It's not significant enough, I don't think. And the whole reason you want to put it in is certainly not NPOV. Novel-Technology 06:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
According to this summary, the LDS Church never officially supported Prohibition. I have heard it said that president of the church Heber J. Grant asked Latter-day Saints to vote against the repeal of Prohibition in 1933. See here.
Our article listed "support of Prohibition" as one of the political issues the church has become involved in, along with opposing MX Missile bases, ERA, same-sex marriage, etc. However, unlike these issues, I can find no official statement from the first presidency, quorum of the twelve, or "the church" on the issue. All I can find are reports about Grant's pleadings with the members.
I've removed support of Prohibition from this list and thought I should open this one up for commenting or discussion of references. - SESmith 03:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Item has been added back to article but still no reference for it. Anyone know where to look for one? - SESmith 10:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Who removed the section on Mormonism and race?
I spent several hours last night writing a section on LDS doctrines related to race, citing the book of mormon and official church publications, it was up as of 10 minutes ago but now it's gone! who removed it? why? for what reason and with what justification? Everything there was cited clearly to source documents! this is NOT cool. 70.143.108.223 11:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
the more i think about this the angrier it makes me, i quit the mormon church ten years ago (after 16 yeas of membership) out of outrage when i ran across the old doctrines on race that had been hidden and left undiscussed, and now even on wikipedia mormon apologists are trying to censor attempts to tell the truth about what this church teaches. you cannot allege that the quotes were inaccurate or out of context, they were direct from the book of mormon and official church publications, i even included a few quotes showing anti-racist tendancies in mormon scripture for the sake of balance. I guess this explains why all the articles on the lds church have such a ridiculous pro-mormon bias and read like advertisements for the church! all the quotes that are allowed in are relentlessly pro-mormon and talk about how great the church is, even the article on mormonism and people of african descent only quotes black MORMONS who are ok with the doctrine - people who've left the church in protest or on principle are silenced as are non-mormons who rightly point out the church's bigotry.
I don't claim to have a neutral point of view on this issue but the text i wrote was very much neutral - which is more then can be said for the rest of the article! I am so so angry right now.... 70.143.108.223 11:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
ok, last note here. I was able to find the text, which had been removed by Sesmith, a mormon (big suprise), whose comment was
"This added section sounds more like a specialty involving non-basic doctrine and is not appropriate for an article about the organization that this article is about"
in other words, he removed it because he didn't think it was important since it's "non basic" doctrine. how is it "non basic" to argue that the majority of the worlds population - people of color - are "Cursed" by God and that that curse makes them "lazy" and "idle", as the book of mormon says it does? how is it non-basic that the church prohibited inter-racial marriages for over a century and maintained racial qualifications on who could participate in the church? how is it "non basic" to say that black people can only enter the highest realm of the celestial kingdom as "servants"???
answer: there's nothing non-basic about it, racism and racial doctrines have been a *central* element of the mormon religion since Brigham young took over from joseph smith (who had actually ordained black people). and the only thing inappropriate is that mormon apologists refuse to adhere to NPOV and insist on removing everything even remotely critical of their church, even when it's their own general authorities and prophets words being quoted.
I've put the text back, I hope it stays back this time and that wikipedia hasn't deteriorated to the point where this type of censorship is tolerated. 70.143.108.223 12:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
half the article was on mormons and native americans, not mormons and blacks, and is NOT covered elsewhere. also, the scriptural citations which you removed and which have since been removed AGAIN related specifically to native americans and are CURRENT doctrine, NOT history. It is thus very much relevant to an article on the doctrine of the Mormon church today - at least as relevant as sexuality and the church's position on homosexuality, which are both mentioned (albiet from a biased pro-mormon perspective) in the article. Efforts to remove sources of "controversy" are exactly the sort of censorship I'm objecting too.
If what you object to is the inclusion of historical data I'll remove that and put up a link to the article on mormons and black people, but the information on CURRENT mormon racial doctrine in regards to native americans needs to go back up.
and if you're not a mormon I apologize for jumping to conclusions. 70.143.108.223 01:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- one more thought, you argue that "You cannot find extended discussions of race in anything that is currently published by the LDS Church." I submit that this is patently false. The Book of Mormon is the central scripture of the mormon religion and the central narrative of that book, the conflict between the Nephites and Lamanites, is a centuries-long race war in which "blackness" is explicitly associated with apostasy and wickedness. how can you seriously argue that the mormon church does not publish on race? every copy of the book of mormon is a white supremacist manifesto. 70.143.108.223 02:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
For my part, I would only point out—first, that I said the LDS Church publishes nothing that has "extended discussions of race". The Book of Mormon mentions (what some interpret to mean) race, but it by no means goes into much detail about it. It is vague and brief enough that there are scholars who question whether it in actuality refers to racial characteristics at all. (But that's another story and would be great for a new article if you find it is unaddressed anywhere else—but I think you will find it if you look.) Anyway, the LDS Church has never adopted everything in the Book of Mormon literally, as some are wont to do with scripture; if it did, imagery and figurative speech such as requiring a "broken heart" or making your garments white by washing them in the "blood of lamb" could be very perplexing and troublesome.
Second, I thank you for your apology but I was not looking for one and it does not offend me to be called a Mormon. But, as I stated above, what does bother me is pointing out someone's presumed religious affiliation "as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views". That's not acceptable at WP or anywhere else. - SESmith 04:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
well i'm obviously outvoted on this one, which is frustrating, but seems to be one of the hazards of working on a collaborative project like wikipedia. storm rider - if you count up the number of verses on jesus christ (who only actually appears once) in the book of mormon and compare them to the number of verses on race, race is far more central to the narrative then jesus is. and that's leaving aside the good vs evil race war subtext. and anyone who questions that the book of mormon is talking about race or doesn't think the modern church endorses a racist position hasn't read the official chapters summaries at the beginnings of the various verses that talk about race, the modern church is very clear on this.... I spent 16 years in the church and have studied their doctrines inside and out, i'm not speaking from a lack of familiarity with the book of mormon or lds institutions here. but i can see i'm not going to change your mind so i'll take my "white horse" as ya'll put it and spend my time on something more productive.
I *would* appreciate it if there was at least a stub somewhere on the page referring to the LDS Church's positions on native americans, something i have not seen addressed anywhere on wikipedia. but even that may be too much to expect. 70.143.103.130 03:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Anon 70, opinions are free to everyone, but attempting to portray opinion as fact is not acceptable. The words white, dark, skin are mentioned exactly 37 times in the Book of Mormon. The terms Jesus Christ, Lord, or Messiah are over 400. I think what you meant to say above is that Jesus Christ appeared in the Book of Mormon once (which happens to be the exact number of times he appears in the New Testament); however, to attempt to portray that as somehow evaluative of His importance is balderdash and deceiptful. The entire Book of Mormon is about believing in Christ, preaching Christ, and following Christ. Anyone with only the briefest of knowledge of the Book knows this. You are letting your passion about a single subject cloud your reason and your logic. -- Storm Rider (talk) 04:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The "
Template:Mormon_denomination_tree" (pictured above) has been removed by an editor, who has commented that it is an "ugly and misleading graphic". It previously was a the very bottom of the article.
Should this article have the Mormon denomination tree?—What does everyone think? - SESmith 01:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I think the tree is a valuable addition and a good introduction for the general reader. Until a new version that is agreed to be clearer and more accurate can be produced, I'd recommend replacing this image. TimVickers 18:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
While I was reading the article, there were several times (whenever the words "latter day saint movement" appeared) that I wished for a chart just like this one. Put it back. Phrenophobia 05:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I am not trying to be a pain or anything but I have not noticed much critisism in this article. Without one the article is not as informative as it could be and it also is not as balanced as it could be. So I do not cause a dispute or anything i am wondering if you would have a problem with me starting a small critisism section for this article? Thanks. Have a nice week and God bless:)-- James, La gloria è a dio 07:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
James, I understand your position and I encourage you read the Roman Catholic Church article for an example of how to handle criticism. I believe that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I support maintaining policy and following rules and I am committed that his article follow the excellent example of the other. It is always best to emulate good examples, no? -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If the LDS church claims approx. 13 million members then how do you get approx. 4.7 million Latin American members (i.e. 13 * .36). This allegation of 36% needs to be substantiated. In general in order to be NPOV, the entire "Current Membership" section needs to neutrally treat all reference data (including census data) for membership numbers. The birthrates and maximum death rates clearly are not in-sync with census rates to account for the allegedly inflated numbers in this article. ( Alex71va 04:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
As has been stated before many times in this talk page (see archives), the best thing we can do to maintain NPOV with respect to membership figures is write what the LDS Church self-reports and indicate that the numbers are self-reported; any other studies on the membership may be cited with proper citations to reliable and verifiable sources. The article does this, and you are free to add citations. According to my calculations, the numbers provided by Bytebear below add up and work out to between 37% and 38%. So what's the problem here? - SESmith 05:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I did a quick cut and paste from the LDS.COM website statistics:
country | church membership |
---|---|
Argentina | 355,987 |
Bolivia | 153,674 |
Brazil | 970,903 |
Chile | 543,628 |
Colombia | 154,549 |
Costa Rica | 34,777 |
Cuba | |
Dominican Rep. | 102,144 |
Ecuador | 170,736 |
El Salvador | 95,931 |
Guatemala | 205,221 |
Haiti | 13,604 |
Honduras | 120,259 |
Mexico | 1,082,427 |
Nicaragua | 55,369 |
Panama | 41,640 |
Paraguay | 61,308 |
Peru | 416,060 |
Uruguay | 96,943 |
Venezuela | 134,597 |
French Guiana | |
Guadeloupe | |
Martinique | |
Aruba | |
Bonaire | |
Curaçao | |
U.S. Virgin Islands | 491 |
Puerto Rico | 19,609 |
Total from Latin America: 4,829,857
Total Church Membership: 12,868,606
Percentage of membership in Latin America: 37.5
The list of countries was taken from the Wikipedia article Latin America. Bytebear 05:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
We need an explanation from Alex of how writing what the LDS reports = POV, especially when it is clear from the context of the article that the number comes from self-reports. Alex's claim of POV is like claiming that the statement, "Christians believe Jesus is God" is POV because non-Christians don't agree with the statement! - SESmith 05:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mexico | Utah | Difference (%) | |
---|---|---|---|
Membership | 1,082,427 | 1,789,707 | 40% |
Temples | 11 | 12 | About even although Utah has larger temples |
Congregations | 1936 | 4585 | 58% |
Post-manifesto polygamy!! Wilford Woodruff & Lydia Mountford, Woodruff's son Abraham Owen Woodruff of the Quorum of the Twelve, Matthias F. Cowley, John W. Taylor, Marriner W. Merrill and many others took plural wives after 1890. BTW I grew up in a LDS ward where one of the men in our Ward named Joe Eyring came from a family where his father had 2 wives who he married in 1893 and 1903. They were plural married in Mexico with the approval of the Brethren in Salt Lake. In fact Joe's eldest sister Camilla was married to Spencer Kimball, who was president of the church at the time I was growing up. Do your research on post-manifesto polygamy. It's a well-acknowledged truth. And this 1890 number has no business being in a NPOV header paragraph on the church. ( Alex71va 06:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)alex71va)
This area was a difficult time for many polygamous families. As a genealogist I am very familiar with my wife's family history. When the manifesto came out it had a devastating impact on most of them and caused the break up many. In her family history all of these plural marriages were put aside as far as any form of cohabitating; it simply stopped. Choices were made as to which wife would be "the" wife, sons were given charge of the now single mothers, and often these women moved away from where their husband was living. I strongly suspect that her history is relective of the majority of Latter-day saint families. My point is that after 1890 things were not just running as before. Did plural marriages take place? Yes; however, relative to prior periods it was very rare. The 1890 Manifesto was a watershed moment in our history. -- Storm Rider (talk) 14:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
"denomination" can be a problematic word because "denominationalism" assumes a certain parity and near-interchangeability between denominations that some branches of Christianity reject.
Methodists, Presbyterians and Lutherans seem to accept the label "Christian denomination". Catholic and Orthodox churches reject this label because they insist that they are the "true Church" and certainly not "just another Christian denomination". Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the label for the same reason.
I would have thought that the LDS church would also reject the label for the same reason. Perhaps I'm wrong?
-- Richard 17:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The word "legally" was inserted into the sentence "Joseph Smith legally formed the church".
I assume that this is not intended in contradistinction to "illegally forming the church" so the natural presumption is that it is meant to distinguish between activities prior to the formation of the church as a legal entity. This seems to be an unnecessary distinction unless there was a formal document like "articles of incorporation" that Smith filed and, even then, I don't see why this is that important. It would seem to me that legalities like incorporating a church are minor details in the history of the church. Given that there are no significant hurdles to forming a church as a legal entity, it is pretty much just a formality and therefore not really worth nothing noting.
Thus, IMO, the word "legally" suggests to the reader a nuance that isn't actually there. It is distracting for the reader to wonder "gee, I wonder why that word is there. what point is the author trying to make?"
-- Richard 17:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I have some questions/comments on some content in this article as it stands now.
"He initially governed his followers as a theocratic leader, and openly encouraged the practice of plural marriage, which Joseph Smith had tried to keep secret."
(1) Openness about plural marriage began in 1852. (2) Brigham Young and other apostles tried to keep it secret too until 1852.
"When word of the practice got back to Washington, D.C., the United States sent federal troops there in 1857, deposed Young, and replaced him with a non-Mormon territorial governor, though Young still wielded significant political power as President of the Church."
(3) References on the decisions of Congress and the White House back in 1857, plus the political attitudes of the new Republican party on “barbarism” should be considered. This sentence makes it look like the US government sent troops to Utah just because they started openly practicing and preaching about polygamy.
"Young was followed by other powerful leaders, who were defiant in the face of U.S. efforts to outlaw polygamous marriages in the territory."
(4) This sentence makes it seem that the U.S. was trying to make polygamy illegal AFTER Brigham Young’s successors were in charge. The truth is that polygamy was already illegal and outlawed in Utah during 1862, approx. 15 years before Brigham Young died. All the talk of “U.S. efforts” after Young died was about efforts to enforce the laws on the books which the outlaws were defiantly disobeying.
“The church's most significant scripture, the Book of Mormon, was published by founder Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830, and is a story about various groups of pre-Columbian Christians, which Smith said he translated from golden plates buried near his home.”
(5) Generally accurate, but its not easy to read and could use improvement IMHO.
(6) Any particular reason why the CHURCH NEWS is not mentioned in the list of "Official periodicals: current and historical"?
( Alex71va 19:08, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Alex71va)
I have added a new criticism section. It is not great but it is a start. Feel free to edit it. God bless:)-- Sir James Paul 01:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the problems that arises is that this is an article about the LDS Church, not an article about "Mormonism" or the Book of Mormon or an LDS leader such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. Many of the common criticisms directed at the LDS Church that some would want to include here are actually criticisms with Mormonism or the Book of Mormon or one of its leaders rather than the church itself. The church just gets caught up in it because it teaches Mormonism and believes in the Book of Mormon as scripture. For example, the fact that the church did not allow blacks to hold the priesthood until 1978 can be a legitimate criticism against the LDS Church. But the charge that the Book of Mormon contains "racist" passages is a criticism of the Book of Mormon and is not a criticism legitimately addressed in an article on the LDS Church. We wouldn't have a discussion of "racist" passages in the Bible in an article on the Catholic Church.
If we keep the criticism section, we will be dealing with keeping this distinction unendingly since many don't distinguish between criticizing the church and criticizing these other things. – SESmith 23:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Mine is not necessarily critism, but a question. When a Morman female dies, does she go to the spirit world like a man and will she get an imortal body after judgement on her works alone? A Morman once told me that a woman can only get an imortal body like her husband if he approves it once he has his. In other words, no matter how good a life a woman can lead on earth, she can't make it to Heaven if her husband doesn't want her there. If that is a true belief or something close, shouldn't that be mentioned in the airticle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.93.32.58 ( talk) 19:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with you guys. The church has always been a controversial organization, and continues to be today. The article is not complete without a more explicit mention of the criticism of the church. A simple reference at the article is not nearly enough to be intellectually honest IMO. Perhaps we can create a criticism section, and make a rule that it can't be more than one or two paragraphs, and have an explicit reference to the Criticism article? I will add this section and you guys tell me what you think. Descartes1979 18:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You and I could come up with some interesting conversation why the largest Christian church has no criticism section unlike some of the smaller groups. It is one of the short comings of Wikipedia and the tyranny of the majority. However, I personally believe the ideal is that demonstrated by the Catholic church article and the others should be brought into a reflection of it. What others think about individual churches is secondary to the topic. Interestingly, the major doctrinal criticisms of the church are already mentioned in the article: polygamy, Godhead, and the concept of theosis or exaltation. The way the subject matter has been addressed is to include it in the respective individual sections and linking the subarticles rather than have a specific section. I think it is a matter of choice; rather than go back and take out the other criticisms to gather them in one section, past editors choice to address the topics as they were introduced. I tend to agree with the past editors. -- Storm Rider (talk) 20:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I missed it, why were these taken out of the Beliefs section? Thanks Novel-Technology 02:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I read somewhere on another talk page that the correct noun usage of "the Church" is as a proper noun, being that we are talking about a single entity. Before I go through the article and capitalize "church" everywhere, I wanted some input from others. Bytebear 05:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This issue was recently discussed at length HERE. The consensus was to retain "the church". - SESmith 09:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I really can't see why this page has been removed from the Good Articles category. I have read other articles on subjects with less passion from the wikipedia community which need much more improvement and are left as good articles. I don't support bad articles getting the name of good articles, but what I am questioning is the reason and motive this article was removed from the Good Articles. Was it simply because the article is about a church that some people very much disagree with? Anyway food for thought! I have read through the article a few times and feel the article deserves Good Article status. Every article on wikipedia can always be bettered, even those with Good Article status. Redrok84 18:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The American Heritage Dictionary defines "restore" as "1. To bring back into existence or use; reestablish: restore law and order. 2. To bring back to an original condition: restore a building..." [2] Presumably, the article is not claiming that no one was following the teachings of Jesus before Joseph Smith came along. Consequently, the phrase "restored through" asserts that Smith's version removes distortions introduced by other Christian denominations. This is, to say the least, not a matter of universal agreement. If that's the position of the LDS Church, "allegedly restored" would be acceptable. But "as preached by" seems like a more polite way of removing the advocacy. [Please note: Though a resident of Salt Lake City, I am ethnic Jewish and find all Christian sects equally plausible or implausible.] Ribonucleic 21:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
did you guys check out the south park episode of mormons? Hilarious. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.74.80.112 ( talk • contribs) 06:00, 28 July 2007.
Some editors are trying hard to, but there's really no point in playing out the "legally justified or not" arguments surrounding the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor press on this page. I suggest Nauvoo Expositor might be a better place for that, or even perhaps Death of Joseph Smith, Jr. This article is long enough as it is ... a brief mention should more than suffice. – SESmith 05:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure I'm opening up a can of worms, but it seems pretty absurd that there is almost nothing in this article about LDS's history on race relations. I understand that this is covered more fully in other articles, but the fact that we have an article called Blacks and the Latter Day Saint movement means that the contents of that article ought to be at least briefly deal with the contents of that material. As it is, the history is rather whitewashed, with it only stating that blacks could not be priesthood holders, rather than the much broader history of racial prejudice. I think some NPOV discussion of this issue is in order on this page. john k 19:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Racist is a very strong term; however, if the shoe fits, it should be worn. You have stated that you do not feel you possess the expertise necessary to write the edit; however, this would seem to conflict with your confidence in making the allegation. That is not the best position for an editor who strives to make NPOV edits. Here is my understanding of the history:
Segregation of people is racist; this has never been done by LDS or any group I know of in the Latter Day Saint movement. Restriction of priesthood ordination is not an issue of sexism, racism or any other ism; it is an issue of faith. That is what this article focuses on; the fact that the church at one point had more restrictions than they do today. One may call it racist, but that would only be a POV. -- Storm Rider (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so I think we're all agreed that main coverage of the issue should be elsewhere, that NPOV can and will be maintained, and that there is no cabal. Hooray! That said, the introduction of a single paragraph could certainly beneficial; does anyone still disagree? If so, why? If not, what information might it contain? -- Masamage ♫ 20:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
It really should have at least a paragraph on the racism of the church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LEDominator ( talk • contribs) 06:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Why isn't this article at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This is the pattern we follow for similar constructions, like Church of England, Church of Scotland, and so forth. Wikipedia naming conventions say not to use direct articles except in things like the titles to works of art. john k 21:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Your point is one that has been brought up before; however, in this instance it has been agreed multiple times that we are following the correct standard. The Manual of Style indicated above also clarifies this point. -- Storm Rider (talk) 21:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
How about: put a disclaimer right at the top to the effect that there are several churches with very similar names; this covers the largest one, for others see the disambiguation page. Phrenophobia 06:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I was just looking at the LDS movement template located at the bottom of the page. Might I suggest that this great Latter Day Saint historical template be placed at the historical section of the article. It almost appears hidden at the bottom of the page right now. I think that since the template concerns early church history for this, and other, organizations it should be located in or around the historical section of the article. What does everybody think??? Jcg5029 03:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
On the map that displays which political entities include LDS temples, the commonwealth of Virginia is colored with dark blue, implying that a temple exists in the state. As far as I know, there is no temple in Virginia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.91.28.34 ( talk) 21:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this entry may have been the victim of some vandalism. Every abbreviation "LDS" is "LSD", even the references at the end. I don't have the time to go through and change them all. Just thought someone should know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.191.147.231 ( talk) 06:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
It's very clear this is writen by the LDS to make themselves look Christian. Like most stuff on Wikipedia about LDS is by LDS and for LDS there is no way it's natural or accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by O22ZY ( talk • contribs) 19:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps putting in a tidbit about education that is linked to a source with some dubious claims (formerly citation 61). The articles which the website provided links to to back up its claims have nothing to do with the claims made on the site, and even worse one of them links to the mormon.org website which has since either removed or changed its location -- LEDominator November 2007 21:50 PST
Does this video describe Mormonism correctly? If so, then it sure does it a lot better than this confusing and lengthy article and also provides some key points of Mormonism that this article does not. For example, it says that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children or whatever they're called who rule other planets as gods. It also says that Mormons believe blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus (those who did became the white race) or Lucifer (those who did became demons) and thus were cursed with black skin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.107.176.176 ( talk) 00:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Duke53, I'm actually suprised that you even allow the above to associate you with alluding to the Godmakers as even remotely acurately portraying Mormonism. We don't need to have a rebuttal on this stupid movie in wikipedia. That is not the point of Wikipedia. for historical purposes, multiple non-LDS groups criticize the movie, the message and the use of half-truths - for exmaple, the Apolgetics index quotes multiple sources about how awful the movie is ( http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s29.html) and the National Conference of Christians and Jews, describes it as "making extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism. It is not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith." Even the Tanners criticize the work ( http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/utlm?q=godmakers&sa=Search for multiple articles about the movie from the tanners) and Jerald said that it hurt his own efforts to convert Mormons to mainstream christianity. A simple google search will bring up multiple rebuttals to the movie. It is about as lame as it goes. Common sense should show most that even the first few seconds of the video is incorrect, from the misstatement that God the Father lives on a planet called Kolob to his sitting around all day having “endless celestial sex.” That is not even close to some of the folk doctrine in Mormonism, let alone the real doctrine.
As for the claims referred to above: - "Jesus and Lucifer are brothers" - both were created by God, and in that sense they are. Mormon scriptures are quite clear that Jesus is also our father, and our God. Jesus and Lucifer are not equals, nor have they ever been. - "God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children" - We are all children of god, all trillion or so of us who live on this earth, but there is no evidence that God has multiple wives. - "blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus" - there were no neutrals in the war in heaven. you either decided to accept the atonement and come to earth or you did not. See Blacks and Mormonism and Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. - That we can "rule other planets as gods" - this is false doctrine. church members believe they can become gods - not Gods. See discussion taking place right now at Talk:Mormonism_and_Christianity on this very topic. There I included the following from Jeff Lindsay's blog. Which prominent Church LDS leaders issued the following statements?
Muliple choice answers: A. Joseph Smith; B. Brigham Young; C. Lorenzo Snow; D. Gordon B. Hinckley; G. Saint Irenaeus; H. Saint Clement of Alexandria; I. Saint Athanasius; J. Saint Augustine
You guessed it - the quotes came from the last four, not the first four. See here. Crazy Mormons, I mean early Christian fathers, I mean Mormons, err, uh, wait...
One start at a point by point can be found at SHEILDS ( http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/GMErrors.htm), although i find even starting to address this movie is frustrating because of how many inaccuracies and direct falsehoods there are. It is like saying that all christians (including Mormons) are canibals and beleive that they will one day have wings that will allow them to fly, and that apples are evil, that Christ flew around like a bird, etc. In any case, it is good to see you are still around. - Visorstuff ( talk) 05:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
"Where, in Wikipedia, are these 'many rebuttals'? I read the article and can only find some general objections ... nothing rebutting most of the claims in the film, and those objections are not cited." Wow! I don't think that you are seriously suggesting that I should have loaded The God Makers article with a bunch of strong pro-LDS rebuttals when I wrote it. I suppose I could have, if I were attempting to write an apologetic tract rather than a Wikipedia article. The purpose of the article was to describe the film and events surrounding its release, not to discredit it, despite the fact that I personally think Decker's magnum opus with its cheesy cartoon is the most laughable thing I've ever seen. My favorite part is when Jesus "beams down" to the American Continent. Enough fun, I've got to get back to "Starbase Kolob" now. The article is there...the rebuttals are out there...so, have at it folks. Bochica ( talk) 20:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think this conversation has gotten a little off track, but to answer the original question "...it says that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, and God has multiple wives in which he has trillions of spirit-children or whatever they're called who rule other planets as gods. It also says that Mormons believe blacks to be those who remained neutral rather than take the side of Jesus (those who did became the white race) or Lucifer (those who did became demons) and thus were cursed with black skin.... Well, accoding to the LDS religon, they do belive that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, I can't find anything that actually staes that God 'has many wives', and I can't find anything anywhere about Blacks remaing 'neutral'. I don't think that the whole thing about how Lucifer and Jesus are brothers is notable enough for the article, but if someone else does I wouldn't really oppose.... ~ Bella Swan 23:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I hate to bring up a rehashed topic once again, but I think a criticism section is warranted. I know, I know - I brought this up a while ago, and was willing to submit to the vehement opposition that I received. However, a few of us have been doing a bunch of work on the Criticism of Mormonism article - that hand in hand with a review of the POV fork article under Wikipedia guidelines, brings me to the conclusion that the articles really ought to be merged. Perhaps not every nit picky criticism in the other article needs mention in a larger article like this one, but I wonder if we can integrate some of the information into each topic in this main article, then give a brief summary in a criticism section (per Wikipedia guidelines), and then refer out to the main criticism article. In the past you guys have cited examples such as the Koran, and the Catholic church articles as articles that don't have a criticism section, but the more I think about it, the more I think those articles are not in line with Wikipedia guidelines either. Thoughts? Descartes1979 19:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no discussion about whether the Book of Mormon is scientifically correct. Native Americans are NOT the Lost Tribes of Israel. DNA proves it. It is well known. If you want your religion to be accepted, you need to come to terms with this, just as you altered the view of African-Americans surrounding the passage of the Civil Rights Act in the 60s. Until then, you will be seen as a cult. (JDB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.101.1.118 ( talk) 22:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
He was supposedly a resurrected prophet as stated here"after his death Moroni was resurrected and became an angel". It would be like calling Jesus an angel after His resurrection.
Also the "angel" link in the history section of the article "Joseph Smith translated from a book of golden plates that were buried near his home in a place shown to him by an angel." sends the reader to an article about Moroni(prophet) which has a talk page for a different article titled Angel Moroni. Does Moroni(prophet) not need its own talk page? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 02:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of theology, it is a verifiable fact that Mormons frequently, perhaps even customarily, refer to him as "the Angel Moroni." Dpbsmith (talk) 02:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
1. A typically benevolent celestial being that acts as an intermediary between heaven and earth, especially in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Zoroastrianism. 2. A representation of such a being, especially in Christianity, conventionally in the image of a human figure with a halo and wings. 3. angels Christianity The last of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology. From the highest to the lowest in rank, the orders are: seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels. 4. A guardian spirit or guiding influence. 5a. A kind and lovable person. b. One who manifests goodness, purity, and selflessness. 6. Informal A financial backer of an enterprise, especially a dramatic production or a political campaign.
I will agree with Dpbsmith 's suggestion that "Mormon terminology should be used with the briefest of possible qualifications in the text. E.g. "the Angel Moroni (as Mormons call him)."" Can we settle on that? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 11:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
These are important distinctions which should be right up front in the article. 1: Mormons believe Jesus went to South America to teach his other children after his resurrection. 2: There is no "holy trinity" 3: Temple marriage is forever as in forever; even if divorced. 4: Good Mormons can achieve the status of God for their own world after death. Hence, Mormons believe there are many Gods. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 02:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Alanraywiki for directing me to the Plan of Salvation
This means that Mormons believe there are many Gods,not just 1 as most Christians believe. This distinction should be very prominent in this article, I think.
Degrees within the celestial
kingdom
"Smith taught that the celestial kingdom itself is subdivided into three "heavens or degrees".[12] Only those individuals who are sealed in celestial marriage to a spouse in a temple while alive (or after death by proxy) will be permitted to enter into the highest degree of celestial kingdom.[13] These individuals will eventually become "exalted"[14] and will be permitted to live "the kind of life God lives".[15]"
What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.
“Chapter 47: Exaltation,” Gospel Principles, 301
These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:
1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36)."
The extracts above show the extent and firmness of the religion's acceptance of the multiple and equal gods belief. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 12:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The section on exaltation implies that they can have the same power and authority over a planet that God does over earth and I have read in books that this is the case. Is that true? Is there a clear official LDS source for that because it is quite interesting I think and also should be prominent within the article. Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 12:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I just located these quotes on a few websites but do not know if the 2 men are reliable sources on Mormonism or whether the quotes are accepted by LDS as being accurate. Lorenzo Snow and Orson Pratt:
and
Are these accepted by LDS as accurate quotes and were these 2 men authorities on Mormon beliefs? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 21:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I've written elsewhere on this wiki:
"Some feel that Mormons are polytheistic because Latter-day Saints believe they can become 'gods' (see undefined definition above) and 'like' God (see theosis or deification). This does not neccessarily mean that they can become omnipotent creators of technicolor worlds with purple dinosaurs. It does mean that they will be co-inheritors of exaltation - something our mortal minds do not comprehend. President Hinckley was criticised when he told Mike Wallace that he understands the philosophy behind us becoming creator-gods, but that he doesn't think that the church teaches it. To me, that was funny, because those who realize that the doctrine is much more complex than how most culturally believe it, accepted his explanation, while others thought that is strange that President Hinckley would deny that. It was simply a clarification of doctrine."
I also wrote about this in detail here.
Once again, I don't deny that it may have been taught in the past by top church leaders, but it is not scriptural doctrine (but a folk doctrine based on good philosophy), and therefore not doctrine of the LDS Church. Church leaders are much better today about staying doctrinally sound. - Visorstuff ( talk) 21:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I am going to reverse the question posed by Mr.grantevans2:
Are these accepted by [Christians] as accurate quotes and were these [4] men authorities on [Christian] beliefs?
Can you accept early Christian fathers and reject the same concepts by Mormon leaders? Bytebear ( talk) 22:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Source: [25]
What's the LDS view on whether God has a wife? Mr.grantevans2 ( talk) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
As you say Mr.grantevants2, this article is "a basic resourse for general readers where they can quickly pick up the information they are most likely to be interested in when they come to the topic in the encyclopedia." Those who want to spend more in-depth time reading about ancilliary things like kolob or whether or not God has a wife, or if Jesus and Satan were spiritually begotton by the Father, can do so quickly. Wikipedia should not be a political nor proselyting tool. We do not change the face of wiki just because of an political election. If someone sees the huckabee "zinger" they could do a google search and find a link to wikipedia just as easily as coming here - which is in fact, what the majority of people do. - Visorstuff ( talk) 14:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)