This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Textus Receptus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
-->It was compiled by Desiderius Erasmus for his translation of the Bible into --->Latin, and later used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament --->in the King James Version of the Bible. This is the text that was in use by --->the Eastern Orthodox Church in Erasmus' time (c. 1500).
If Erasmus COMPILED the text (which he did from several texts, including the Vulgate,) then how could it be the text "in use by the Eastern Orthodox Church?"
Did the "Eastern Orthodox church" adopt this text after it was compiled??? or is this because most of the manuscripts he used were late Byzantine?
Part of the Greek in the TR is backtranslated from the Latin Vulgate -- I find it difficult to believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church would accept Eramsus text.
Michael
Given that the Textus Receptus is a controversial topic, I think there should be sources for this article. With some (including Jack Chick) arguing that the textus receptus is the *only* legitimate text around, the claim that Erasmus just made a lot of it up with the help of the Vulgate should be very well verified if it is to appear in a Wiki article. Sophy's Duckling 05:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Added qualification and reference to debate over Erasmus' fabricating material - article was phrased too rigidly in favour of anti-Erasmus side of the debate. Also removed claithat "typographical errors abound". This MUST be substantiated if it is to remain in a Wikipedia article - even a few examples would have made it decent. Finally, rephrased statement regarding subsequent use of first editin, for sake of readability - previous version jarred.
The contention that Erasmus fabricated his Greek text is a charge made often, (by those who do not like Erasmus) but not substantiated. Wiki guidelines specifically state that the information must be "verifiable". Either produce citations and reference that authenticate the points about Erasmus, or change this. The data needs to be...verifiable. Theo5
I John 5:8 also seems to be unique to the TR. It is not in any of the major text families, NOR was it in the major manuscripts Erasmus used [though, it was in at least one late western manuscript -- Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin. (From Clarke's commentary on I John 5:8)
Michael
It is impossible to prove that "No school of textual scholarship now continues to defend the priority of the Textus Receptus". Recently, I added a "source needed" tag to the clause, but had it removed. Something must be done with this sentence, as it is unsourced and unsourcable. Can we at least change it to say that the vast majority of textual scholars no longer defend its priority? -- Mister Magotchi 17:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the tag - as the statement is linked to the textual criticism page; and simply summarises what is referenced there. If you know of a school of Biblical textual scholarship that does defend the priority of the Textus Receptus, then by all means add it to that page, and modify the statement on this one. Surely, it is the function of Wikepedia to summarise all significant scholarly positions on an issue - and then to say that there are no others? Just because this final statement is a negative, and not formally provable, is no reason not to include it. TomHennell 23:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not clear why the square-bracketed phrase "text type" was inserted in the last edit. Suggest removing it if the editor doesn't clarify. The Editrix 01:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe it would be helpful if we got Erasmus' own annotations to the New Testament. Hopefully there he would point out how his translation differs from the Vulgate of Jerome, and his reasons for making the differences. As far as I know the only source for Erasmus' annotations to the New Testament are in The Collected Works of Erasmus Vol. 66 pp. 51-60. I do not know this for sure, it is a reference from a book called The Erasmus Reader. I am going to check to see if I can find either the annotations online or where there is a copy of the Vol.66.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.68.117.82 ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 9 April 2007.
Erasmus's Annotations have been published in recent years in facsimile, with an English Introduction. Most University libraries should have copies.
"The Gospels / edited by Anne Reeve ; introduction by M.A. Screech ; calligraphy by Patricia Payn : facsimile of the final Latin text (1535) with all earlier variants (1516, 1519, 1522 and 1527). 1986."
TomHennell 14:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The author of this article explains that the Erasmus, Luther, King James and all the East, Western and Central Europe, William Tyndale, Church Fathers, the Orthodox and the Catholic churches (Latin Vulgate) are absolutely ignorant. So it is obvious authenticity that the author of this article himself is ignorant. Please read the material with caution, it is not historically correct.
(pov put in article proper in error TomHennell 19:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
The good example of an untaught thinking and argumentation you can find in: Providential Preservation of the Text of the NT. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 16:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your "many cases" are 4. So your "text critical" thinking and examples are with no value when compared to the 7 000 substantial errors and fabrications of the so called "textual critics". I insist that the material is historically incorrect, (it is against the historical evidence), and is produced by semi Christian stream known as "Textual criticism". Historically there is not such biblical text in existence as the text produced by their teachers. 85.11.156.3 ( talk) 00:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Your "ancient" manuscripts are shamefully small in number - approximately 4. So, again, the "text critical" thinking is of no value compared to 6000 (24 000 with the small pieces) manuscripts. And even more, these "oldest copies" are in severe disagreement with each other. So you have nothing, except their malice against the faith, and against the doctrine of Jesus the Anointed who is called God with us. 85.11.156.3 ( talk) 04:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr. Hills defended both the Traditional ("Byzantine") Text and the TR. It is wrong to say "Hills rejected text of majority (Byzantine text) and according to him Textus Receptus was the closest text to the autographs." It is true that Dr. Hills held to the TR being the closest thing to the originals but he wasn't alone in this position (per se). Here is a quote from his often cited book The King James Version Defended - "...if we believe in the providential preservation of the New Testament text, then we must defend the Textus Receptus as well as the Traditional Text found in the majority of the Greek manuscripts." What say you? Bhardecker ( talk) 12:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
TomHennell, what aspects of the article needs citations of Hills' book. I would like to help there. Bhardecker ( talk) 14:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Bhardecker, I think the following statements need to be cited by edition and page:
- that Burgon speculated that Alexandrinus or Ephraemi might be older than Vaticanus/Sinaitacus (this is from Leszek Jańczuk, and I have not found it myself).
- Hills theology of providential preservation ch 4.1.c. - Hills assertion that providential preservation finds its culmination in printing ch 4.3.d. - Hills rejection of readings in the Byzantine text that are not maintained in the Textus Receptus ch 8.1.c. - Hills assertion that the Greek underlying the KJV is the closest to the orignal autograph ch 8.5.d.
Incidentally, neither of the links given to Hill's book seem to work on my browser; maybe this is better: http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_study/books/kjv-defended/index.html TomHennell ( talk) 10:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me but who exactly is Edward Hill, what is his doctorate in, and how, exactly does he qualify as a WP:RS? Farsight001 ( talk) 00:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
TomHennell, I checked out the references which needs cited and here's what I found:
Author states, "Although others have defended the TR per se, they are either not acknowledged textual critics (e.g. Theodore Letis) or their works are not on a scholarly level (e.g., Terence H. Brown or D. A. Waite).[19]"
This statement is biased. Who "acknowledges" textual critics or their scholarly level? How much agreement must there be with current "mainstream" textual critics to find acceptance?
Simply citing another biased author statement does not alleviate this author's responsibility for neutrality.
It smacks of poisoning-the-well and devalues the scholarly nature of the article.
Aulservant ( talk) 05:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
So many errors. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 10:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
My point is about the author's biased statement, not his conclusions. (I am not afraid of the truth, if he could arrive at it.)
If he could truly quote a study that states "...XXX % of all doctorates in textual criticism believe that......", then he has objective evidence.
Surely you see the difference.
However, the author has an obvious agenda, which would otherwise be okay if he could stick with objective facts followed by subjective conclusions.
But "poisoning the well", by characterizing his detractors as not as smart as those who believe as he, does not help anyone arrive at truth.
70.246.227.120 ( talk) 01:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it have been quicker for you to just say, "I don't understand the difference between subjective and objective statements?"
Aulservant ( talk) 03:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Leszek Jańczuk keeps changing this article, inserting a link to information that scholars consider obsolete, also making a contradiction in Wikipedia itself. The Comma_Johanneum article states:
Exactly right. But Leszek Jańczuk keeps linking to an old reference from Metzger which he in a later edition said "needs to be corrected". How can we stop this person from inserting obsolete information? He clearly has a non-neutral point of view Berend de Boer ( talk) 23:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The introduction to this articles states: "containing between them not quite the whole of the New Testament." What is that supposed to mean? If there are no objections, I'll remove this portion of the sentence. Objections should include rewrites to make this more clear. Of course Erasmus text isn't exactly the Textus Receptus, but is that is what is meant? Berend de Boer ( talk) 19:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
It appears as if these words were sneaked into the article by a KJV only proponent who has no basis for them: "In later editions, Erasmus adjusted his text of the last six verses of Revelation in several places once he could consult complete Greek manuscripts[citation needed]." Citation is indeed needed or this should be removed from this article. It sticks out like a sore thumb. It sounds like wishful thinking, without any proof being given. "Book of life" doctrinally changes the Bible. If a person's "part" can be removed from the Book of Life for "taking away from the words of of the book of this prophecy [the book of Revelation]", first it makes no sense as "parts" are not written in the Book of Life; names are. However, just previously in v. 14 the "tree of life" is mentioned, not the Book of Life, which indicates the context for chapter 22 as far as "trees of life" and "books of life" are concerned. Lastly, the Bible is clear in both the OT and NT that salvation is "eternal" (without end) and "not to be repented of" (not to be taken away), and so "book of life" sticks out like a sore thumb as an error of translation either on the part of Erasmus or the Vulgate edition he used with which to translate the last six verses. The "Book of Life" translation contradicts with all other scripture concerning salvation. I'm not sure why KJVO proponents, who are mostly fundamentalist, cannot see this. Thank you all for your time. DollyArtist2013 ( talk) 21:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Veverve! DollyArtist2013 ( talk) 01:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
From reading this talk page, it seemed like these were problems, so I indicated such on the page itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.68.37.5 ( talk) 03:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Since Tyndale's translation (1525) predates Luther's (1534), it would be more appropriate to reverse the order of names in the first sentence. Pamour ( talk) 11:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I accidentally cut off my edit summary, so I figured I should explain why I removed two sentences from the introduction. Two issues: first, there was some clumsy repetition, with two different authors saying the same thing, and I thought the last sentence was much clearer. But, secondly, I guess I think the idea that people "criticize" the Textus Receptus is a bit weird when presented completely out of context, as it was in the introduction. The textus receptus was an impressive work of 16th century scholarship. But, you know, it was in the 16th century, so obviously it's going to be out of date. No one in the scholarly community "criticizes" the textus receptus, they just recognize that it's not the best text, for probably inevitable reasons. A statement in the intro that scholars don't consider it the best text would be totally reasonable, but what was there before seemed kind of silly. Basically - this shouldn't be treated like a live controversy. Obviously there are people who prefer the Textus Receptus, but there is no scholarly debate here. The beliefs of KJV Only types and the like should be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it shouldn't be treated like a scholarly debate, nor should it be the central feature of the article. john k ( talk) 15:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition to the list of English Translations of the Textus Receptus, those versions that translate the Byzantine Text or Vulgate. Those represent entirely different textual traditions (and should not be confused); and have their own articles, where specific English translations may properly be listed. TomHennell ( talk) 22:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
ISTM that there is no reason to include various modern printings of the KJV. It seems more appropriate to restrict this list to different translations of the Textus Receptus. Also, a few of these entries are not much more than a title - are they really translations of the Textus Receptus? This list could be more informative with fewer entries. TomS TDotO ( talk) 08:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Textus Receptus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
"They are also the text type used in most Protestant denominations consistently throughout history before the 19th century adoption of the Alexandrian priority position within mainstream Biblical scholarship."
This single sentence contains some very confusing links.
Why is "Protestant denominations" being linked to an article that describes the history of the reformation? How does this inform the reader that the texts described in this article were even used by anybody in this article. The Reformation article doesn't even contain the word "textus," while the article also clearly states that this reformation ended well before any "19th century adoption." It would seem to be a disservice to the reader that an article concerning the history of a reformation be linked as "protestant denominations", quantified as most, and linked to the idea of consistent usage of "textus receptus."
The second link to Constantin von Tischendorf, being labelled as "the 19th century" is also quite confusing. The characters "adopt" are not found anywhere within the Tischendorf article, yet it is clear that the article verifies that he lived in the 19th century. Since the phrase "the 19th century" is being used adjectively, it seems to be appropriate to look upon the "adoption" action being expressed in the sentence, yet I couldn't clearly find any such adoption in the linked article.
The third link in the sentence to Westcott-Hort, labelled as "adoption of" is also confusing. It seems that "adopt" in this article is referring to an act taken in the 20th century, rather than the 19th century. However, the article does seem to confirm that their version of the Greek that they authored closely matches the work of Tischendorf.
It seems that the term "adoption" may best fit the last link in the sentence pointing to Biblical criticism, however, the "19th century" section of the article doesn't seem to mention, Tischendorf, Wescott, Hort, nor an Alexandrian priority. There is a "Markan priority" mentioned elsewhere in the article on criticism, yet nothing expressly confirms an "alexandrian priority position." It seems that this sentence is only a sentence that can be adequately understood by experts in the field, rather than curious encyclopedia readers.
Are the authors of the article attempting to portray that an alexandrian priority position is not a natural priority position and must therefore be adopted into such a position? The common and ordinary meaning of adopt is "to take by choice into relationship" or "to take or receive as one's own what is not so naturally." Is this sentence intended to imply that the adopted priority position is chosen over a natural priority position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:40, 8 October 2018 (UTC) 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:42, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"This edition of the New Testament represents the tradition of manuscripts of the New Testament as the one that the Orthodox Church has received and used without interruption since the 4th century."
The " tradition" link seems to refer to an article concerning a recent categorization of manuscripts and doesn't adequately describe a tradition that would help a reader understand the sentence. What exactly is "the tradition of manuscripts?" The second link that refers to the article on textual variants seems to refer to an "Alexandrian textual tradition," while the "tradition" link referring to the new categorization article merely mentions "the history of the textual traditions" in the "eclectic" category. It's quite difficult for a reader to understand what tradition means while referring to the links in the sentence. 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:11, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
To whom it may concern: I have worked for years as a professional translator (from Hebrew into English) and as an amanuensis, and during this period of work, I have often come across the use of the term "Textus receptus" when referring to a manuscript's original form, rather than to its later redaction or interpolation. The term, although Latin, can also apply to old and original Hebrew manuscripts. It is not limited to only Greek Christian texts. As we see in this dictionary's definition here, the word "such as" (used here as an example) is not meant to be exclusive, but may include other examples. Davidbena ( talk) 23:00, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
A question has come to the fore as to whether Wikipedia policy permits us to add a broad definition of "Textus Receptus" to the lede paragraph, a phrase defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as: "a text of a work that is generally accepted as being genuine or original [1855-60]." Some editors here have felt that since Wikipedia is not a dictionary, a broad definition of the term cannot be used, particularly since the article treats of ancient Greek Christian texts. The problem, however, is that other articles also make use of this term when referring to ancient Hebrew texts (e.g. Mikraot Gedolot, Masoretic Text, Damascus Pentateuch, and Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll). As can be seen, the term "textus receptus" is used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts as well. What's more, they all link to the article "Textus Receptus"! Since the term is broadly used, should it be restricted only to Greek Christian texts? If we should give its broader definition in the lede, would it take away from the general scope of this article? Davidbena ( talk) 16:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Textus Receptus ( Latin: "received text") is an original version of a text, usually one of a religious nature, whether among Jews, Christians or Muslims...because that's only true of textus receptus. Seeing as the Textus Receptus was the textus receptus of Protestant Christianity for a few centuries, I would bet that one of these terms directly influenced the naming of the other, so one alternative to Elmidae's Other uses section would be to have an Etymology section. Since the topics are distinct, the ideal scenario would be if we could find enough sources to establish the notability of textus receptus and create separate articles disambiguated with hatnotes, but finding such sources may be hard. Another option would be to update the wiktionary entry to reflect its usage in religious studies scholarship and put a link to that at the top of the article. signed, Rosguill talk 18:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Textus Receptus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
-->It was compiled by Desiderius Erasmus for his translation of the Bible into --->Latin, and later used as the basis for the translation of the New Testament --->in the King James Version of the Bible. This is the text that was in use by --->the Eastern Orthodox Church in Erasmus' time (c. 1500).
If Erasmus COMPILED the text (which he did from several texts, including the Vulgate,) then how could it be the text "in use by the Eastern Orthodox Church?"
Did the "Eastern Orthodox church" adopt this text after it was compiled??? or is this because most of the manuscripts he used were late Byzantine?
Part of the Greek in the TR is backtranslated from the Latin Vulgate -- I find it difficult to believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church would accept Eramsus text.
Michael
Given that the Textus Receptus is a controversial topic, I think there should be sources for this article. With some (including Jack Chick) arguing that the textus receptus is the *only* legitimate text around, the claim that Erasmus just made a lot of it up with the help of the Vulgate should be very well verified if it is to appear in a Wiki article. Sophy's Duckling 05:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Added qualification and reference to debate over Erasmus' fabricating material - article was phrased too rigidly in favour of anti-Erasmus side of the debate. Also removed claithat "typographical errors abound". This MUST be substantiated if it is to remain in a Wikipedia article - even a few examples would have made it decent. Finally, rephrased statement regarding subsequent use of first editin, for sake of readability - previous version jarred.
The contention that Erasmus fabricated his Greek text is a charge made often, (by those who do not like Erasmus) but not substantiated. Wiki guidelines specifically state that the information must be "verifiable". Either produce citations and reference that authenticate the points about Erasmus, or change this. The data needs to be...verifiable. Theo5
I John 5:8 also seems to be unique to the TR. It is not in any of the major text families, NOR was it in the major manuscripts Erasmus used [though, it was in at least one late western manuscript -- Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin. (From Clarke's commentary on I John 5:8)
Michael
It is impossible to prove that "No school of textual scholarship now continues to defend the priority of the Textus Receptus". Recently, I added a "source needed" tag to the clause, but had it removed. Something must be done with this sentence, as it is unsourced and unsourcable. Can we at least change it to say that the vast majority of textual scholars no longer defend its priority? -- Mister Magotchi 17:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the tag - as the statement is linked to the textual criticism page; and simply summarises what is referenced there. If you know of a school of Biblical textual scholarship that does defend the priority of the Textus Receptus, then by all means add it to that page, and modify the statement on this one. Surely, it is the function of Wikepedia to summarise all significant scholarly positions on an issue - and then to say that there are no others? Just because this final statement is a negative, and not formally provable, is no reason not to include it. TomHennell 23:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It's not clear why the square-bracketed phrase "text type" was inserted in the last edit. Suggest removing it if the editor doesn't clarify. The Editrix 01:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe it would be helpful if we got Erasmus' own annotations to the New Testament. Hopefully there he would point out how his translation differs from the Vulgate of Jerome, and his reasons for making the differences. As far as I know the only source for Erasmus' annotations to the New Testament are in The Collected Works of Erasmus Vol. 66 pp. 51-60. I do not know this for sure, it is a reference from a book called The Erasmus Reader. I am going to check to see if I can find either the annotations online or where there is a copy of the Vol.66.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.68.117.82 ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 9 April 2007.
Erasmus's Annotations have been published in recent years in facsimile, with an English Introduction. Most University libraries should have copies.
"The Gospels / edited by Anne Reeve ; introduction by M.A. Screech ; calligraphy by Patricia Payn : facsimile of the final Latin text (1535) with all earlier variants (1516, 1519, 1522 and 1527). 1986."
TomHennell 14:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The author of this article explains that the Erasmus, Luther, King James and all the East, Western and Central Europe, William Tyndale, Church Fathers, the Orthodox and the Catholic churches (Latin Vulgate) are absolutely ignorant. So it is obvious authenticity that the author of this article himself is ignorant. Please read the material with caution, it is not historically correct.
(pov put in article proper in error TomHennell 19:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC))
The good example of an untaught thinking and argumentation you can find in: Providential Preservation of the Text of the NT. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 16:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- Your "many cases" are 4. So your "text critical" thinking and examples are with no value when compared to the 7 000 substantial errors and fabrications of the so called "textual critics". I insist that the material is historically incorrect, (it is against the historical evidence), and is produced by semi Christian stream known as "Textual criticism". Historically there is not such biblical text in existence as the text produced by their teachers. 85.11.156.3 ( talk) 00:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Your "ancient" manuscripts are shamefully small in number - approximately 4. So, again, the "text critical" thinking is of no value compared to 6000 (24 000 with the small pieces) manuscripts. And even more, these "oldest copies" are in severe disagreement with each other. So you have nothing, except their malice against the faith, and against the doctrine of Jesus the Anointed who is called God with us. 85.11.156.3 ( talk) 04:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Dr. Hills defended both the Traditional ("Byzantine") Text and the TR. It is wrong to say "Hills rejected text of majority (Byzantine text) and according to him Textus Receptus was the closest text to the autographs." It is true that Dr. Hills held to the TR being the closest thing to the originals but he wasn't alone in this position (per se). Here is a quote from his often cited book The King James Version Defended - "...if we believe in the providential preservation of the New Testament text, then we must defend the Textus Receptus as well as the Traditional Text found in the majority of the Greek manuscripts." What say you? Bhardecker ( talk) 12:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
TomHennell, what aspects of the article needs citations of Hills' book. I would like to help there. Bhardecker ( talk) 14:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Bhardecker, I think the following statements need to be cited by edition and page:
- that Burgon speculated that Alexandrinus or Ephraemi might be older than Vaticanus/Sinaitacus (this is from Leszek Jańczuk, and I have not found it myself).
- Hills theology of providential preservation ch 4.1.c. - Hills assertion that providential preservation finds its culmination in printing ch 4.3.d. - Hills rejection of readings in the Byzantine text that are not maintained in the Textus Receptus ch 8.1.c. - Hills assertion that the Greek underlying the KJV is the closest to the orignal autograph ch 8.5.d.
Incidentally, neither of the links given to Hill's book seem to work on my browser; maybe this is better: http://www.wilderness-cry.net/bible_study/books/kjv-defended/index.html TomHennell ( talk) 10:26, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me but who exactly is Edward Hill, what is his doctorate in, and how, exactly does he qualify as a WP:RS? Farsight001 ( talk) 00:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
TomHennell, I checked out the references which needs cited and here's what I found:
Author states, "Although others have defended the TR per se, they are either not acknowledged textual critics (e.g. Theodore Letis) or their works are not on a scholarly level (e.g., Terence H. Brown or D. A. Waite).[19]"
This statement is biased. Who "acknowledges" textual critics or their scholarly level? How much agreement must there be with current "mainstream" textual critics to find acceptance?
Simply citing another biased author statement does not alleviate this author's responsibility for neutrality.
It smacks of poisoning-the-well and devalues the scholarly nature of the article.
Aulservant ( talk) 05:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
So many errors. Leszek Jańczuk ( talk) 10:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
My point is about the author's biased statement, not his conclusions. (I am not afraid of the truth, if he could arrive at it.)
If he could truly quote a study that states "...XXX % of all doctorates in textual criticism believe that......", then he has objective evidence.
Surely you see the difference.
However, the author has an obvious agenda, which would otherwise be okay if he could stick with objective facts followed by subjective conclusions.
But "poisoning the well", by characterizing his detractors as not as smart as those who believe as he, does not help anyone arrive at truth.
70.246.227.120 ( talk) 01:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't it have been quicker for you to just say, "I don't understand the difference between subjective and objective statements?"
Aulservant ( talk) 03:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Leszek Jańczuk keeps changing this article, inserting a link to information that scholars consider obsolete, also making a contradiction in Wikipedia itself. The Comma_Johanneum article states:
Exactly right. But Leszek Jańczuk keeps linking to an old reference from Metzger which he in a later edition said "needs to be corrected". How can we stop this person from inserting obsolete information? He clearly has a non-neutral point of view Berend de Boer ( talk) 23:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The introduction to this articles states: "containing between them not quite the whole of the New Testament." What is that supposed to mean? If there are no objections, I'll remove this portion of the sentence. Objections should include rewrites to make this more clear. Of course Erasmus text isn't exactly the Textus Receptus, but is that is what is meant? Berend de Boer ( talk) 19:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
It appears as if these words were sneaked into the article by a KJV only proponent who has no basis for them: "In later editions, Erasmus adjusted his text of the last six verses of Revelation in several places once he could consult complete Greek manuscripts[citation needed]." Citation is indeed needed or this should be removed from this article. It sticks out like a sore thumb. It sounds like wishful thinking, without any proof being given. "Book of life" doctrinally changes the Bible. If a person's "part" can be removed from the Book of Life for "taking away from the words of of the book of this prophecy [the book of Revelation]", first it makes no sense as "parts" are not written in the Book of Life; names are. However, just previously in v. 14 the "tree of life" is mentioned, not the Book of Life, which indicates the context for chapter 22 as far as "trees of life" and "books of life" are concerned. Lastly, the Bible is clear in both the OT and NT that salvation is "eternal" (without end) and "not to be repented of" (not to be taken away), and so "book of life" sticks out like a sore thumb as an error of translation either on the part of Erasmus or the Vulgate edition he used with which to translate the last six verses. The "Book of Life" translation contradicts with all other scripture concerning salvation. I'm not sure why KJVO proponents, who are mostly fundamentalist, cannot see this. Thank you all for your time. DollyArtist2013 ( talk) 21:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, Veverve! DollyArtist2013 ( talk) 01:36, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
From reading this talk page, it seemed like these were problems, so I indicated such on the page itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.68.37.5 ( talk) 03:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Since Tyndale's translation (1525) predates Luther's (1534), it would be more appropriate to reverse the order of names in the first sentence. Pamour ( talk) 11:06, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I accidentally cut off my edit summary, so I figured I should explain why I removed two sentences from the introduction. Two issues: first, there was some clumsy repetition, with two different authors saying the same thing, and I thought the last sentence was much clearer. But, secondly, I guess I think the idea that people "criticize" the Textus Receptus is a bit weird when presented completely out of context, as it was in the introduction. The textus receptus was an impressive work of 16th century scholarship. But, you know, it was in the 16th century, so obviously it's going to be out of date. No one in the scholarly community "criticizes" the textus receptus, they just recognize that it's not the best text, for probably inevitable reasons. A statement in the intro that scholars don't consider it the best text would be totally reasonable, but what was there before seemed kind of silly. Basically - this shouldn't be treated like a live controversy. Obviously there are people who prefer the Textus Receptus, but there is no scholarly debate here. The beliefs of KJV Only types and the like should be mentioned somewhere in the article, but it shouldn't be treated like a scholarly debate, nor should it be the central feature of the article. john k ( talk) 15:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition to the list of English Translations of the Textus Receptus, those versions that translate the Byzantine Text or Vulgate. Those represent entirely different textual traditions (and should not be confused); and have their own articles, where specific English translations may properly be listed. TomHennell ( talk) 22:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
ISTM that there is no reason to include various modern printings of the KJV. It seems more appropriate to restrict this list to different translations of the Textus Receptus. Also, a few of these entries are not much more than a title - are they really translations of the Textus Receptus? This list could be more informative with fewer entries. TomS TDotO ( talk) 08:40, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Textus Receptus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
"They are also the text type used in most Protestant denominations consistently throughout history before the 19th century adoption of the Alexandrian priority position within mainstream Biblical scholarship."
This single sentence contains some very confusing links.
Why is "Protestant denominations" being linked to an article that describes the history of the reformation? How does this inform the reader that the texts described in this article were even used by anybody in this article. The Reformation article doesn't even contain the word "textus," while the article also clearly states that this reformation ended well before any "19th century adoption." It would seem to be a disservice to the reader that an article concerning the history of a reformation be linked as "protestant denominations", quantified as most, and linked to the idea of consistent usage of "textus receptus."
The second link to Constantin von Tischendorf, being labelled as "the 19th century" is also quite confusing. The characters "adopt" are not found anywhere within the Tischendorf article, yet it is clear that the article verifies that he lived in the 19th century. Since the phrase "the 19th century" is being used adjectively, it seems to be appropriate to look upon the "adoption" action being expressed in the sentence, yet I couldn't clearly find any such adoption in the linked article.
The third link in the sentence to Westcott-Hort, labelled as "adoption of" is also confusing. It seems that "adopt" in this article is referring to an act taken in the 20th century, rather than the 19th century. However, the article does seem to confirm that their version of the Greek that they authored closely matches the work of Tischendorf.
It seems that the term "adoption" may best fit the last link in the sentence pointing to Biblical criticism, however, the "19th century" section of the article doesn't seem to mention, Tischendorf, Wescott, Hort, nor an Alexandrian priority. There is a "Markan priority" mentioned elsewhere in the article on criticism, yet nothing expressly confirms an "alexandrian priority position." It seems that this sentence is only a sentence that can be adequately understood by experts in the field, rather than curious encyclopedia readers.
Are the authors of the article attempting to portray that an alexandrian priority position is not a natural priority position and must therefore be adopted into such a position? The common and ordinary meaning of adopt is "to take by choice into relationship" or "to take or receive as one's own what is not so naturally." Is this sentence intended to imply that the adopted priority position is chosen over a natural priority position? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:40, 8 October 2018 (UTC) 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:42, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
"This edition of the New Testament represents the tradition of manuscripts of the New Testament as the one that the Orthodox Church has received and used without interruption since the 4th century."
The " tradition" link seems to refer to an article concerning a recent categorization of manuscripts and doesn't adequately describe a tradition that would help a reader understand the sentence. What exactly is "the tradition of manuscripts?" The second link that refers to the article on textual variants seems to refer to an "Alexandrian textual tradition," while the "tradition" link referring to the new categorization article merely mentions "the history of the textual traditions" in the "eclectic" category. It's quite difficult for a reader to understand what tradition means while referring to the links in the sentence. 45.30.100.86 ( talk) 18:11, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
To whom it may concern: I have worked for years as a professional translator (from Hebrew into English) and as an amanuensis, and during this period of work, I have often come across the use of the term "Textus receptus" when referring to a manuscript's original form, rather than to its later redaction or interpolation. The term, although Latin, can also apply to old and original Hebrew manuscripts. It is not limited to only Greek Christian texts. As we see in this dictionary's definition here, the word "such as" (used here as an example) is not meant to be exclusive, but may include other examples. Davidbena ( talk) 23:00, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
A question has come to the fore as to whether Wikipedia policy permits us to add a broad definition of "Textus Receptus" to the lede paragraph, a phrase defined in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary as: "a text of a work that is generally accepted as being genuine or original [1855-60]." Some editors here have felt that since Wikipedia is not a dictionary, a broad definition of the term cannot be used, particularly since the article treats of ancient Greek Christian texts. The problem, however, is that other articles also make use of this term when referring to ancient Hebrew texts (e.g. Mikraot Gedolot, Masoretic Text, Damascus Pentateuch, and Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll). As can be seen, the term "textus receptus" is used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts as well. What's more, they all link to the article "Textus Receptus"! Since the term is broadly used, should it be restricted only to Greek Christian texts? If we should give its broader definition in the lede, would it take away from the general scope of this article? Davidbena ( talk) 16:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Textus Receptus ( Latin: "received text") is an original version of a text, usually one of a religious nature, whether among Jews, Christians or Muslims...because that's only true of textus receptus. Seeing as the Textus Receptus was the textus receptus of Protestant Christianity for a few centuries, I would bet that one of these terms directly influenced the naming of the other, so one alternative to Elmidae's Other uses section would be to have an Etymology section. Since the topics are distinct, the ideal scenario would be if we could find enough sources to establish the notability of textus receptus and create separate articles disambiguated with hatnotes, but finding such sources may be hard. Another option would be to update the wiktionary entry to reflect its usage in religious studies scholarship and put a link to that at the top of the article. signed, Rosguill talk 18:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)